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Task Force housekeeping
Now might perhaps be a good time to consolidate some of the quieter TFs into larger, more active, ones. Obvious candidates are:
- Taiwanese military history (one editor) could be absorbed into Chinese military history.
- Australian military history and New Zealand military history, with a scope expanded to include the Pacific Islands, could be merged to form the Australasian task force.
- Lebanese military history and Ottoman military history are merged into Middle Eastern military history. The Lebanese TF is already specifically designated as sub-group, so this is not really a radical change, and the prime movers are increasingly inactive. While the Ottoman also straddled Europe, its main sphere of influence was the Middle East.
- Military science could be merged with Military technology and engineering to form the Military science and technology task force.
Thoughts? Roger Davies talk 13:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
- Agree with all suggested mergers. Buckshot06(prof) 14:27, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree with the Ottoman one. The Ottomans were from very early on a European power as well as an Anatolian one, and a very active one at that. One could even argue that the centre of power of the Ottoman state before 1517 was in Europe rather than Asia. But even after the defeat of the Mamelukes, and with the exception of the wars with Persia, most of the Ottoman military activity actually happened in Europe. The Middle East may have formed the bulk of the Empire, but in terms of foreign policy & military history, the Ottomans were most active in Central, Southern and Eastern Europe. Constantine ✍ 17:48, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'm of the same mind with the Ottoman Task Force. The Ottoman Empire's main military campaigns were fought on European/Central Asian soil (with Russia, Austria, Austria-Hungary, etc). I have to agree w/ Constantine that Ottoman Military should remain separate. As for the others, I have no objections. Cam (Chat) 19:17, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree with the Ottoman one. The Ottomans were from very early on a European power as well as an Anatolian one, and a very active one at that. One could even argue that the centre of power of the Ottoman state before 1517 was in Europe rather than Asia. But even after the defeat of the Mamelukes, and with the exception of the wars with Persia, most of the Ottoman military activity actually happened in Europe. The Middle East may have formed the bulk of the Empire, but in terms of foreign policy & military history, the Ottomans were most active in Central, Southern and Eastern Europe. Constantine ✍ 17:48, 8 October 2009 (UTC)
(od) Agree with all mergers; they can always be de-merged if enough people join them. Skinny87 (talk) 09:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that while separating two merged task forces may be theoretically possible, it's an utter nightmare in terms of practical logistics; so we shouldn't make this decision lightly, with the idea that we can flip between the two arrangements. If we're going to merge things, we should be reasonably confident that we won't need to un-merge them at least in the foreseeable future. Kirill [talk] [pf] 21:15, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Disagree with naming of new Australizan/New Zealand Task Force, if its scope is going to include other nations in that region, perhaps it should be named the Oceania task force.
- Disagree with the merging of the Taiwanese and/or Chinese Military History Task Forces. As seen in the argument of who is a Taiwanese and Chinese American both words are politically loaded and contentious, and although all editors are suppose to maintain a NPOV, this may cause some tension in the future.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 13:49, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- "Oceanian military history" sounds like a reasonable alternative to "Australasian military history"; I assume there's nothing controversial about the term in the region in question?
- Nothing wrong except your suffix. I've never heard of 'Oceanian', ever. I'd suggest sticking with Oceania. Cheers Buckshot06(prof) 21:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Really? I'd always assumed that "Oceanian" was the common adjective form (cf. Category:Oceanian countries). Do people there normally only use the noun form, even in an adjective role? Things like "Oceania history" and so forth sound off to me, but that could be a mistaken assumption on my part. Kirill [talk] [pf] 21:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- Although, looking at this further, Military history of Oceania uses "Oceanic" instead. Is that a more common term? Kirill [talk] [pf] 21:49, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- To be honest, I've never heard of either. Prefer 'Oceania military history.' Buckshot06(prof) 00:09, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- I've heard both Oceanian and Oceanic, but never Oceania as an adjective. Perhaps Oceanic would sound better here. – Joe N 01:05, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- Seems I'm outvoted. Oceanic military history will do fine. Cheers Buckshot06(prof) 05:44, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- As far as the Taiwanese one is concerned, I don't think that we should let the political issue keep us from doing what's best for the project. The alternative, in my opinion, would likely involve deleting the Taiwanese TF entirely; it's far too small and inactive to sustain itself, or be worth maintaining merely for organizational value. Kirill [talk] [pf] 21:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
Another possible candidate might be the Romanian TF into the Balkan TF. Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 16:48, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that Romania was normally not considered part of the Balkans. Is that not the case? Kirill [talk] [pf] 21:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- What about upgrading the Romania task force into a central Europe task force that would cover all the missing countries? - Czech Republic, Hungary, Austria, etc? Buckshot06(prof) 21:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's more Eastern Europe than Central Europe, really—and that's one area where trying to merge task forces together will almost certainly cause huge fights to break out. It's better to leave those particular task forces well enough alone, in my opinion, even if they're not quite as a active as we'd like.
- (The potential is certainly there, in any case; the sheer numbers of articles involved are quite high, even if we have too few editors working on them.) Kirill [talk] [pf] 21:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
- If we created just a general Eastern Europe TF that included the Balkans, Romania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, Belarus (possibly even the countries currently in the Nordic TF), and overlapped slightly with European Russia, that would avoid political issues. The main drawback would be that it might become rather large in terms of number of articles. – Joe N 01:05, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- Whatever Romania is, it certainly isn't Central Europe, which would be Germany, Switzerland Austria, the northern part of Italy, Czech republic, and an eastern swath of Hungary. If you look at the history journals that deal with "Central Europe"... they define it pretty clearly. Eastern Europe, then covers Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc. Point: for a good part of the early modern and modern past, most of the armies from those areas would fall under Habsburg or HRE categories. While they have a long history as a people, they have a relatively short history as a state.
- One of the elements I find fascinating about this discussion is the move from nationalist military history, toward geopolitical definitions that are not necessarily nationalistic. Veeeeery interesting. Is there a problem with having task forces that deal with the areas/states that have active members, and then putting the others in general geographic clusters? Auntieruth55 (talk) 23:09, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
- Whatever Romania is, it certainly isn't Central Europe, which would be Germany, Switzerland Austria, the northern part of Italy, Czech republic, and an eastern swath of Hungary. If you look at the history journals that deal with "Central Europe"... they define it pretty clearly. Eastern Europe, then covers Romania, Serbia, Bulgaria, etc. Point: for a good part of the early modern and modern past, most of the armies from those areas would fall under Habsburg or HRE categories. While they have a long history as a people, they have a relatively short history as a state.
- If we created just a general Eastern Europe TF that included the Balkans, Romania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, Belarus (possibly even the countries currently in the Nordic TF), and overlapped slightly with European Russia, that would avoid political issues. The main drawback would be that it might become rather large in terms of number of articles. – Joe N 01:05, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- What about upgrading the Romania task force into a central Europe task force that would cover all the missing countries? - Czech Republic, Hungary, Austria, etc? Buckshot06(prof) 21:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm a bit concerned at the name Military science and technology task force - I think the military science part gets lost, and it sounds as if it's just about science and technology in a military context. Military science is, of course, the study of the causative factors and tactical principles of warfare (per Dictionary.com - though Military science seems to think it's about technology and equipment) and thus embraces articles on strategy and tactics rather than technology. But then I'm a member of the Military science task force, and I've never done anything specifically arising from it, so my views shouldn't count for much. Cyclopaedic (talk) 17:39, 10 October 2009 (UTC)
- Weighing in finally on these...
- Taiwanese military history absorbed into Chinese military history: Have to admit the first thing I thought of here was current political significance of such a merger, even though I know that's not what's meant with this proposal, so I have to say I'm not particularly comfortable with it.
- Australian military history and New Zealand military history, with a scope expanded to include the Pacific Islands, merged to form the Australasian task force: I can handle this merge and the suggested name, or the name Oceanic task force (shades of Orwell...!).
- Lebanese military history and Ottoman military history merged into Middle Eastern military history: Agree with merging Lebanese Task Force into Middle East Task Force, but I think Ottoman Task Force should stay separate.
- Military science merged with Military technology and engineering to form the Military science and technology task force: While I think Cyclopaedic has a good point about the difference between science (as he's defined 'military science') and technology, I'd prefer to see these rationalised if possible.
- Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:41, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd vote for Australasian task force- almost no-one uses "Oceanic" in everyday use and Australia and NZ are going to be the major components of the taskforce anyway, so "Australasian" is fine IMHO. Commander Zulu (talk) 07:13, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
- I'd also say "Australasian". "Oceanic" is an adjective that refers to the oceans rather than Oceania. Constantine ✍ 14:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)
- Australasian works best for me. It's unambiguous and, as Ian mentions, Oceania is very Nineteen Eighty-Four. Roger Davies talk 08:03, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
- Disagree. I see nothing wrong with having both an Australian task force and a New Zealand one. IMO an Oceania task force would be difficult to live with (being melodramic of course), although an Australasian one would be acceptable but only grudgingly. I think the Australian task force in particular is a fairly active one and if we accept the recent rogue creation of the Pakistan task force we should be able to justify the continued existance of the Australian one. Personnally I don't see the need for the change. Anotherclown (talk) 08:17, 18 October 2009 (UTC)
- That part of the proposal isn't about ending the existence of the Australian TF, which I agree is one of our more productive ones, but rather finding a natural home for the all-but-inactive New Zealand TF. I suppose there's no real harm in keeping inactive TFs on the books, but in terms of the (albeit small) administrative overhead it makes sense to rationalise them where we can. EyeSerenetalk 09:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone else have any comments? Kirill [talk] [pf] 04:47, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- Kirill, you've seen my comments above - just want to say I continue to support the merger of TFs as per my notes above. Don't really have any strong opinion what the Aust/NZ task force is called, but believe it should be merged. Regards Buckshot06(prof) 18:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- Kirill, I too support a merger of the Australian and NZ task forces, however, because it has been proposed that the smaller populated island nations be included within its scope, I only have disagreement on what it is named. For that part I believe the name should be as inclusive as possible. Furthermore, I believe we all have the understanding that military forces in American Samoa will remain within the scope of the US Task force?
- However, I do object to the merger of the Taiwanese/RoC Task Force with the Chinese/PRC Task Force, due to the political issues that may arise from it, as I had stated above.
- For all other mergers, I have no opinion on them, and should continue per consensus, if one has been reached. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:43, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
- Hi RightCowLeftCoast, what Kirill's told me in the past with 'delineation' issues like American Samoa is that he's happiest if there are no particular inclusion restrictions. Am Samoa issues might attract two taskforce tags, but his argument would be there's no harm in that.
- For the record, I have no objection to merging the ROC and Chinese task forces. Buckshot06(prof) 20:41, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
- I see no harm in both TF's being able to improve any military articles relating to American Samoa, just as long as there is no exclusion, of the US Task Force, then it should be all gravy. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 08:17, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
- While my contributions in this area have been modest, I don't see the wisdom in merging Military Science with Military Science and Technology. The former is more fundamental and relatively invariant with time whereas the latter has many many more pages devoted to it and changes constantly. Military Science has no real impact on technology. Technology does mediate the application of Military Science but not the fundamental principles which are centuries old. Dduff442 (talk) 12:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
I'd say change the Indian one to a whole subcontinental/South Asia one. The Pakistan one is simply pointless and some SL and Bangladesh are floating in SE Asia YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (Invincibles Featured topic drive) 08:20, 3 November 2009 (UTC)
- Good suggestion. Roger Davies talk 10:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
- I support this suggestion. --Rosiestep (talk) 04:24, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- Add Nepal to the subcontinent/S Asia one, maybe Afghanistan as well; the Taliban is current "middle east" YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (help the Invincibles Featured topic drive) 04:28, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- Good suggestion. Roger Davies talk 10:19, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'll flag this discussion up in the new edition of The Bugle to get a bit more feedback so we can move it towards a resolution. Roger Davies talk 09:59, 6 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'd agree to a South Asian task force. In fact, this has been proposed before as well. Taking an example from the area I work in; articles related to the Sri Lankan civil war either have no regional task force or are in the Idian/south east asian ones as YellowMonkey mentioned. ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 08:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with this one, also. — AustralianRupert (talk) 00:17, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I'd agree to a South Asian task force. In fact, this has been proposed before as well. Taking an example from the area I work in; articles related to the Sri Lankan civil war either have no regional task force or are in the Idian/south east asian ones as YellowMonkey mentioned. ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 08:07, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
From my perspective, the conversation so far is fairly chaotic, and deliberation about any one task force suggestion is getting lost in between the conversations relating to the others. I think a subsection for each proposal should be created (maybe with a summary of the opinion so far as observed by one or more of the Coordinators): that way, we can keep discussion of the proposals out of each others' way. -- saberwyn 08:24, 9 November 2009 (UTC)
Summary
As requested, with the caveat that I've contributed to the discussion above so am not technically uninvolved. If anyone feels I have misjudged consensus as a result, please feel free to amend as necessary :) I suggest further discussion, if desired, takes place under each proposal's individual section. EyeSerenetalk 11:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Taiwanese military history and Chinese military history
- Original proposal: Taiwanese military history (one editor) could be absorbed into Chinese military history.
- Summary of discussion: Few explicit opinions (outside blanket approvals) have been offered either way. The main objection is that the merger may have awkward political ramifications; this has been countered by the suggestion that politics should have no bearing on what's best for Milhist, and because the Taiwanese TF is so small the alternative might be to remove it entirely.
- Consensus position so far: Merger approved
- I believe that I am the only one opposed to the merger at this point. No? --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 11:56, 12 November 2009 (UTC)
Australian military history and New Zealand military history
- Original proposal: Australian military history and New Zealand military history, with a scope expanded to include the Pacific Islands, could be merged to form the Australasian task force.
- Summary of discussion: The idea of some form of merger has attracted almost unanimous support; however, what to call the new task force has been more contentious. Suggestions have included "Australasian military history", "Oceaniac military history", and variants on the two. Both Australasian and Oceaniac have attracted support.
- Consensus position so far: Principle of merger approved; no clear consensus as yet for the new task force name (although "Australasian military history" may have a slight edge)
I would lean towards "Australasian", as, although I am familiar with the term "Oceania" for the region, I have never heard the term "Oceaniac". Also, at first glance, most people would read the name as task force for oceans. -- saberwyn 03:35, 13 November 2009 (UTC)- I've changed my mind to be in favour of Australian and New Zealand military history task force, and limiting inclusion to those two nations. -- saberwyn 20:38, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
- Although I have already stated it, I support a title relating to the Oceania region, it is more inclusive a term and doesn't favor a single nation within said region. Alternatively South West Pacific redirects to the Oceania page, at like the suggested South Asia TF, SWP TF may also be an idea and has historic precedents in the SWPA. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 09:53, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed, lets leave SE Asia out of this discussion. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- I would support a task force called 'Australian and New Zealand military history task force, but I would not support a task force called Oceaniac or Oceania military history task force. My reason for this is that the majority of the articles that would be in the task force would be Australian and New Zealand and hence the other hangers on would just be the poor cousins that probably wouldn't get improved anyway. Why not an A&NZ task force, which could exist alongside the currently existing South East Asian task force, which could be expanded to include the Pacific Islands nations. — AustralianRupert (talk) 04:15, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Another idea is that there could be the ANZAC or Australian and New Zeland task force, or whatever you want to name it, leave the South East Asian Task Force as is, and then have/create a Polynesia/Micronesia/Melanesia task force for those other nations and territories which were termed by someone else in this discussion as "poor cousins". --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Lebanese military history and Ottoman military history
- Original proposal: Lebanese military history and Ottoman military history are merged into Middle Eastern military history.
- Summary of discussion: This has attracted little explicit support (although comes under several blanket approvals). There have been no objections to merging the Lebanese TF with the Middle Eastern TF; the main opposition arises from suggestions that the Ottoman sphere of influence was not limited to the Middle East. However, the question of whether it is active enough to support its stand-alone existence, or could be merged with a more suitable task force, remains to be examined.
- Consensus position so far: Lebanese task force; merger approved. Ottoman task force; accounting for blanket supports, there is a weak consensus for the merger. However, further discussion may be desirable.
- I support the merger of the Lebanese task force into the Middle East task force, but think that perhaps the Ottoman task force needs to be separate. After all it is not so much a geographical grouping in that regard, but rather a period of history. For example, the ACW task force is separate from the US, as is Napoleonic from French, British etc. I'm not involved in any of these task forces, though, so my vote might be a little redundant. — AustralianRupert (talk) 04:38, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Military science and Military technology and engineering
- Original proposal: Military science could be merged with Military technology and engineering to form the Military science and technology task force.
- Summary of discussion: Again, this has attracted a number of blanket but few explicit supports. A concern was raised that Military Science has meanings incompatible with Military technology and engineering, but although acknowledged this has not been widely echoed.
- Consensus position so far: Merger approved
Romanian military history and Balkan military history
- Proposal emerged during debate: Romanian military history could be merged into the Balkan military history task force.
- Summary of discussion: The point was made that Romania is not considered part of the Balkans; further suggestions then involved the creation of a wider "Eastern European task force" that might include "Balkans, Romania, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Ukraine, Belarus (possibly even the countries currently in the Nordic TF), and [portions of] European Russia".
- Consensus position so far: Not moved beyond initial proposal stage; further discussion needed
- Approve merger of Romanian task force into Balkan task force. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:11, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- I also support this merger. — AustralianRupert (talk) 04:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Indian military history and Pakistani military history
- Proposal emerged during debate: Merger of Indian and Pakistani task forces into a newly-created South Asian military history task force, to include areas such as Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Nepal and Afghanistan.
- Summary of discussion: Unanimous support so far.
- Consensus position so far: Merger approved, although this suggestion has not yet attracted wide participation and further input would be useful.
- Approve merger of both into South Asian task force. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:11, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Should it also include Bhutan, Maldives, Tibet, the British Indian Ocean Territories, per the South Asia article? --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 10:01, 13 November 2009 (UTC)
- Tibet seems out of place, both politically—the Chinese/Taiwanese thing is paralleled here—and historically, since there was little military similarity between Tibet and the Subcontinent. (Having said that, I'm not sure if we even have any articles on Tibetan military history at the moment, so this may be a moot point.) Kirill [talk] [pf] 02:57, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Not Tibet, as there is little/no military activity across the Himalayas until the last 100 or so years and Tibetan military issues have always been with Chinese invasions. In the old days, Chinese pilgrims and Buddhist scholars etc always went up to Kazakhstan and turned around and went through modern Afghanistan and Pakistan to get to the foothills of Nepal to places like Varanasi and Lumbini. The Himalayas were virtually impassable. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (help the Invincibles Featured topic drive) 03:11, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- How about the eight SAARC nations, since these are the ones generally regarded as south asian countries? ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 03:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- I would see no problem with that, except in so far that it should include the islands of the Indian Ocean north of the equator and east of the 60E Longitude, and should not extend to China if it were to become a full member of SAARC. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- That sounds like a suitable scope to me. My regards, Laurinavicius (talk) 22:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- I would see no problem with that, except in so far that it should include the islands of the Indian Ocean north of the equator and east of the 60E Longitude, and should not extend to China if it were to become a full member of SAARC. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:27, 15 November 2009 (UTC)
- How about the eight SAARC nations, since these are the ones generally regarded as south asian countries? ≈ Chamal talk ¤ 03:37, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Not Tibet, as there is little/no military activity across the Himalayas until the last 100 or so years and Tibetan military issues have always been with Chinese invasions. In the old days, Chinese pilgrims and Buddhist scholars etc always went up to Kazakhstan and turned around and went through modern Afghanistan and Pakistan to get to the foothills of Nepal to places like Varanasi and Lumbini. The Himalayas were virtually impassable. YellowMonkey (bananabucket) (help the Invincibles Featured topic drive) 03:11, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
- Tibet seems out of place, both politically—the Chinese/Taiwanese thing is paralleled here—and historically, since there was little military similarity between Tibet and the Subcontinent. (Having said that, I'm not sure if we even have any articles on Tibetan military history at the moment, so this may be a moot point.) Kirill [talk] [pf] 02:57, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
Next steps
This thread has now been archived a couple of times for lack of comment, which may be an indication that everyone who wants to has had their say (at least for the moment). Therefore unless there are any objections, I'm intending to close up those proposals which have consensus in the next 48 hours or so. Summary below. EyeSerenetalk 09:32, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Struck; last call for comments going out in newsletter so will hold off for a little while. EyeSerenetalk 15:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
At the moment the following changes are approved:
- Taiwanese military history will be absorbed into Chinese military history
- Lebanese military history will be absorbed into Middle Eastern military history
- Military science will be merged with Military technology and engineering to form Military science and technology
- Romanian military history will be absorbed into Balkan military history
- Indian military history will be merged with Pakistani military history to form South Asian military history
Those areas that do not have consensus are:
- The scope and name of the new combined Australia/New Zealand/Pacific Islands task force
- The absorption of Ottoman military history into Middle Eastern military history (no consensus=status quo, so the current position is that Ottoman military history will be retained as a separate entity)
- The scope of the new South Asian military history task force
- Fully support these proposed changes; I'm sure the remaining issues can be worked out in time. Buckshot06 (talk) 22:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- What objections I have have already been expressed, and seeing as how I appear to be in the minority opinion, the ROC/PRC military history merger shall continue.
- There appears to be some additional backing regarding my defined scope for the South Asian military history task force, see above.
- I don't believe there is so much a question of scope, as much as name. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 00:03, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Well, unless I've missed something I'm not seeing any objections to "South Asian military history" as the name. Have I understood your point correctly?
- Re the scope, I agree it does now seem there's a consensus emerging to include India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Maldives, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Afghanistan and the islands of the Indian Ocean. EyeSerenetalk 08:44, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- No objection to the name, no objection ot the scope. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 09:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Endorse name and scope for SATF. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- No objections from me. — AustralianRupert (talk) 02:52, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, forgot one thing, the islands of the Indian Ocean shouldn't include the islands off the eastern coast of Africa, which should be in that task forces scope. Therefore Madagascar, Seychelles, & Mauritius should fall under African military history task force. And thus my statement earlier regarding the part of the Indian Ocean that should be under the new SATF.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 04:28, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- No objections from me. — AustralianRupert (talk) 02:52, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- Endorse name and scope for SATF. Buckshot06 (talk) 21:55, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- No objection to the name, no objection ot the scope. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 09:11, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
Battle of Shenkursk
Hi! Anyone interested in doing a quick review of the Battle of Shenkursk?
Thanks --Zegoma beach (talk) 20:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Submarine articles
May I just ask for attention to the contributions here of User:AchimKoerver. I have left a friendly message on his/her talk page, however thought it appropriate to leave one here too. The user adds hidden messages to the sections they add warning users not to edit them:
<!-- --> <!-- Please DO NOT CHANGE the text in this chapter - it is a CITATION FROM ORIGINAL DOCUMENTS --> <!-- If you want to add a correction or a comment, please use the footnotes. Thanks. --> <!-- My sources - Wright or Wrong... --> <!-- -->
As well as having some stylistic things which I have advised him from, and some NPOV and OR statements such as "this obvious breach of International Law" such as "lso S.S. Belgian Prince on 31 July, survivors being lined up on submarines deck and drowned" both from SM U-44. Just for your information, the user has written several articles now - he or she is quite prolific in his writing. SGGH ping! 22:04, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- I had concerns as well, I actually raised this separately at WT:SHIPS here within five minutes of your post. Benea (talk) 22:11, 30 November 2009 (UTC)
- I can't say for sure, but assuming this is what it is represented to be this looks like British intelligence information from World War I (and thus well out of copyright). However, adding it directly to the articles in this format is not appropriate: it violates WP:NPOV for a start, such information was often of only limited accuracy and from the looks of it this transcription seems incomplete. It certainly isn't good prose. It does look at this point as if this is a good faith user however, and with a bit of explanation and guidance they could be an asset to the project. --Jackyd101 (talk) 00:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- it looks like it might also violate OR, if the material isn't published, or accessible in some way. Plus there is always the prose issue. AND although it might not be a copyright vio, it isn't a good idea to transport text verbatim either. Better to paraphrase and contextualize it. And there is also the apparent ownership issue. Auntieruth55 (talk) 00:51, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I can't say for sure, but assuming this is what it is represented to be this looks like British intelligence information from World War I (and thus well out of copyright). However, adding it directly to the articles in this format is not appropriate: it violates WP:NPOV for a start, such information was often of only limited accuracy and from the looks of it this transcription seems incomplete. It certainly isn't good prose. It does look at this point as if this is a good faith user however, and with a bit of explanation and guidance they could be an asset to the project. --Jackyd101 (talk) 00:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- If they are copyvio, it's a biggie, 'cause he looks like to be using a cut & paste; a lot of pages have little more than the names changed. On the plagiarism issue, presuming it's a verbatim lift, that's broader than just AchimKoerver, since many of the USN ship pages are verbatim lifts from DANFS. (And, yes, this is an issue I've complained about before, to no avail.) Don Bolan I'll get to it, Leo 00:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- well perhaps he thinks that by citing the source in the header (where did that idea come from), s/he's avoided the plagiarism thing. I'm having a hard time resisting a little tinker with the text, just to see what the reaction would be. My-bad. Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:02, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- DANFS is public domain, you are not going to win that battle, plus the entries are modified to be less POV-pushing, see Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships/DANFS conversions -MBK004 03:06, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- "DANFS is public domain" That's the same bullshit argument I've been hearing all along. All it means is the publisher can't (won't) sue you, not that it's not plagairism. Wrong, I fear, is still wrong. (And yeah, adding the "DANFS" tag is all most are bothering to do. Lazy.) If there's less "POV-pushing" in them, I haven't seen it. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 03:44, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- If they are copyvio, it's a biggie, 'cause he looks like to be using a cut & paste; a lot of pages have little more than the names changed. On the plagiarism issue, presuming it's a verbatim lift, that's broader than just AchimKoerver, since many of the USN ship pages are verbatim lifts from DANFS. (And, yes, this is an issue I've complained about before, to no avail.) Don Bolan I'll get to it, Leo 00:59, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Estow the tune of DANFS, Gentlemen, there will be time to handle that issue later. The problem right now is that this behavior can not be allowed to stand. Whether they are copyvio's or plagerized does not change the fact that we have WP:OWN issues here, and if this problem is not managed quickly NOW then its going to create problems for us down the road. We need to:
- Remind the editor that no one owns any pages here,
- mark the pages as possible copyvios,
- remove the hidden messages, and
- Look into how many page may be effected.
If the user in question decides to join us and contribute in a manner consistent with all established guidlines and policies then so be it, if not then we may need to consider blocking the account. For now, lets get to work on the above points. 76.211.107.188 (talk) 05:44, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- At the risk of appearing to both defend copyvio, & contradict myself, may I suggest not being too hasty? First, let's establish there is a copyvio? Probababilities & appearances do not guilt make, so posting copyvio warnings may be premature. That said, I fully agree, remind on own & remove the hidden msgs. As to #pp affected, it appears to me all the sub pages posted are, in 1 degree/another, since they seem to be boilerplated, with details changed as needed. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 08:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hence the "possible". As both you and MBK have pointed out, there is disagreement over DANFS material and its status for use here, and there is more than one way to mark a page as a copyvio. A simple listing of articles here that have the hidden messages would suffice for now until we can locate the sources used in the articles. 76.211.107.188 (talk) 10:03, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hello again. I have received an email from the user asking me to explain my actions. He lists some issues of perceived political bias on Wikipedia, but in all his hasn't been offensive or anything (I shall reproduce the email if so required). I have replied in a friendly manner and explained my actions. I believe he has also emailed one User:Brad101 (a user I don't believe I have met before) asking for clarification. I shall summarise my reply as follows: I didn't change his introduction because it was subjective nonsense as I accused me, but because it was a summary of the entire war not a WP:LEAD of the article. I did tag a couple of controversial statements with citation needed tags. I did not "manipulate" his footnote, merely placed it outside of a section heading. I did not censor the article. I do not have "Hitler-friendly" views as he stated to me in his email. I appreciate him taking the time to email me, and advise him to contact a second admin to review all our actions if required. I informed him I would reproduce his email (with his email address censored for privacy) if required to by any 3rd party.
- That's a summary of the email. As I said, I can reproduce it in its eternity if required. The IP address above made the following suggestions, and I have added on my actions thus far:
- Remind the editor that no one owns any pages here, (I have done so on his talk page)
- mark the pages as possible copyvios, (I will leave that to someone familiar with the source as per concensus)
- remove the hidden messages, (I have removed one from the article I first found, which I trimmed down overall and changed to fit guidelines as I interpret them, and I have removed the hidden message only from one other.)
- Look into how many page may be effected. (I believe a list of his contributions may help here.)
- Thank you for your assistance thus far, I shall be here for any questions on my actions thus far. Cheers. SGGH ping! 13:42, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, that struck me as odd. SGGH ping! 14:27, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hence the "possible". As both you and MBK have pointed out, there is disagreement over DANFS material and its status for use here, and there is more than one way to mark a page as a copyvio. A simple listing of articles here that have the hidden messages would suffice for now until we can locate the sources used in the articles. 76.211.107.188 (talk) 10:03, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
This is somewhat tricky. The user in question reprinted two volumes of a post-WWI account of British naval intelligence by Birch and Clarke, both of whom served in Room 40. Quite apart from the bias one might expect in a work of this nature, and a certain level of inaccuracy, there is also published evidence that in certain places Clarke lied outright to sully a naval officer's name. I was in touch with Herr Koerver over the summer to draw his attention to this fact. --Simon Harley (talk | library | book reviews) 14:53, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I have received another email apologising for earlier hostility. The user writes that he has read up on policy and is happy to nuance his articles to reflect it. I've given him some final points of stylistic advice and also reminded him to remove the hidden warnings. Hopefully these will be put into effect and all's-well-that-ends-well. SGGH ping! 16:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- That seems hopeful, it sounds like you're resolving this in the best way possible. Nice work :) Obviously we'll need to keep an eye on things for a while, but there are plenty of experienced editors (and admins if necessary) around these pages to help out. However, I still think we need to be clear about the provenance of the information they've been adding, which sounds from Simon Harley's post that it might be more of a plagiarism than a copyright issue; equally unacceptable, but for ethical rather than legal reasons. It's all part of the learning curve though... EyeSerenetalk 17:54, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- I have received another email apologising for earlier hostility. The user writes that he has read up on policy and is happy to nuance his articles to reflect it. I've given him some final points of stylistic advice and also reminded him to remove the hidden warnings. Hopefully these will be put into effect and all's-well-that-ends-well. SGGH ping! 16:13, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
- ...congratulations may be premature. From what I've seen of the editor's contribution history, he may not understand the problem. He seems to think that an original source must be cited in its entirety, and doesn't need footnotes, that it cannot be broken into smaller cites (as evidence used in specific instances, combined with other material, and so on). These seem to be dated after the SGGH conversation (he attributes the edits to SGGH guidance), but there isn't much difference that I can see....? Auntieruth55 (talk) 21:56, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
(od) I suppose the question to ask is whether there are any RS secondary sources for these U-Boats? If so, they can be added and the primary stuff deleted or edited as required. If there isn't, then it might be more troublesome. Skinny87 (talk) 10:17, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- It's a touch better in the obvious copy-pasting (compare this & this). It looks to me like inadequate grasp of method of citation more than intent to copyvio, but maybe I'm being too generous. There seems to be an effort to get the pages in line (his contributions page is showing extensive revision efforts), but citation is still weak. As to RS, this appears to be reproducing original docs, which might confirm some of the uncited stuff. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 15:51 & 15:57, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
- Not sure if you were aware or not, but that link you gave is related to the user judging from the email address he originally emailed me from. SGGH ping! 17:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Based on the similarities of the names of the user and the author of that website, there may be a conflict of interest going on, too. — Bellhalla (talk) 19:45, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Not sure if you were aware or not, but that link you gave is related to the user judging from the email address he originally emailed me from. SGGH ping! 17:36, 3 December 2009 (UTC)
- Not aware of any connection. I'm judging on the docs alone. Are they authentic/not? If yes, I'm not clear if COI makes a diff; they could be obtained from Kew by anybody, no? (Admitted, not expert on COI...) That said, I'll leave the new ish to others & suggest our Brit cousins have a look & see if they can authenticate locally (or by permission to the Archives site, which I don't have...) TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 02:05, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think there is a doubt that that they aren't authentic. You can easily find them in the National Archives cataglogue and they are available to purchase (caveat I haven't actually compared what's in the archives to what's on http://germannavalwarfare.info) but if it is a hoax it's an elaborate one. I wonder if AchimKoerver's attitude about changing any of thw wording comes from the NA copyright rules here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/legal/copyright.htm e.g. the bit about "material may be reproduced free of charge in any format or medium provided it is reproduced accurately and not used in a misleading context". I don't see COI or OR as issues here if all he has done is reproduce the text of historical documents
- Also I think AchimKoerver should be cut a little slack here. On any of the articles he's created he's been very careful not to claim that these documents are correct about the movements of each U-boat but are the operations as known to British intelligence. If those need a health warning because either British intelligence was wrong or the author of those documents had reasons for faking records then that can/does need to be addressed (and it might be that topic forms an article in itself?) but I don't see a reason for discounting the information at the moment especially in the absence of anything that can be considered more accurate e.g. log books, German naval records. NtheP (talk) 08:58, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- For myself, I certainly hadn't considered the material was deliberately inaccurate, beyond the POV of the original source anyway. I think as long as there's no copyvio, the editor is engaged productively with others, and they're working to our verifiability and neutrality policies (even if the material is hosted on their own site, the articles I've looked over seem neutrally written), there's nothing much to worry about. EyeSerenetalk 11:01, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- (od) The editor is now re-writing the articles to remove their comment and clarify the sourcing (eg, in edits such as [1] this). I think that British wartime intelligence files are very bad sources given that secondary works using German records have long been available, but until someone comes along to use these sources to redevelop the articles it's pretty inoffensive behavior as at least they're adding some content, even if it is patchy and contains inaccuracies. Nick-D (talk) 11:09, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- "Authentic" maybe not the best word; do they accurately represent the content? (They evidently do.) Is a "health warning" needed? For inaccuracy, perhaps, but I'd argue no more than any wartime doc (incompleteness & rush, if no other reason); Rm40 would be doing it's damndedst to get it right, 'cause they're providing info to A/S (ASW...) forces trying to sink U-boats. Same applies to falsification; these are internal intel docs, not for public release. Ineed, some of the public release docs are more suspect; USN WW2, for instance, made many false (public) claims of U-boat sinkings in the "Happy Time" period, for reasons of morale (not to mention prestige). And yeh, there might be an article (or section, for sure) on the falstiy of public statements. Propaganda in wartime? I agree with Nick-D, it looks like a misunderstanding of process to some degree, & overuse of blanket pasting, & AchimKoerver certainly seems to have the right attitude about fixing it. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 21:15, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- As a side, perhaps that these edits would be better at WikiSource? Headbomb {ταλκκοντριβς – WP Physics} 23:37, 4 December 2009 (UTC)
- That's not a bad idea. Just dropping a note off here to say that I assessed these as start-class, but if they are reduced in length and tidied up (some of them copy the same introductory text about WW1 submarine warfare), the assessment may need to drop back to stub. On looking at them more closely, I share some of the concerns expressed above, and feel I should have edited the articles rather than assessed them (or done both), but there are rather a lot of them (about 20-30 so far that I can see). I had presumed that the German records were not available, but from the above it seems they are, and those should definitely be added. Carcharoth (talk) 12:18, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- Just call me if you have problems acquiring these German sources or need some translation. Wandalstouring (talk) 15:53, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- That's not a bad idea. Just dropping a note off here to say that I assessed these as start-class, but if they are reduced in length and tidied up (some of them copy the same introductory text about WW1 submarine warfare), the assessment may need to drop back to stub. On looking at them more closely, I share some of the concerns expressed above, and feel I should have edited the articles rather than assessed them (or done both), but there are rather a lot of them (about 20-30 so far that I can see). I had presumed that the German records were not available, but from the above it seems they are, and those should definitely be added. Carcharoth (talk) 12:18, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- I may have spoken too soon. This & this suggest an inability to recognize a citation needn't quote from the source entire, nor retain original formatting. I'm disinclined to suffer reversion... I did leave a note on his talk, where I see previous cmt in the same vein. Maybe just inexperience? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 16:12, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- Or maybe not...judging by this. :( For which I tried leaving a friendly note (on top of TheWeakWilled's warning). For the effort AchimKoerver's put in, it'd be a real shame to see him blocked. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 16:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- More bad news. It appears from this AchimKoerver prefers to quit WP & delete all the pages he's put up... (I did try & encourage him to stay.) TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 04:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- It appears that he did make a "last stand" in trying to get "his" articles to appear the way he wanted yesterday in addition to just on U-71 (there were about 15 treated in the similar way but were not blanked when he was reverted), of which I have just reverted a great deal of, but some further examination of his recent contributions would be appreciated. This truly is a mess... and while it is sad we are apparently losing an editor who knows a great deal about the subject, they simply do not understand why their actions are wrong per our policies. -MBK004 05:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- It looks like there's some ignorance, based on his talk comments; how much of that is willful & how much is an unwillingness to admit error (which of us does that well? :) ), is unclear. (I dislike seeing anybody quit here, esp over a fixable problem. {Vandals I'd ban on a 1st offence, but that's another ish entire. ;p}) OTOH, if the docs here are reliable (& they seem to be his main source), it's not a dead loss. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 07:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- It appears that he did make a "last stand" in trying to get "his" articles to appear the way he wanted yesterday in addition to just on U-71 (there were about 15 treated in the similar way but were not blanked when he was reverted), of which I have just reverted a great deal of, but some further examination of his recent contributions would be appreciated. This truly is a mess... and while it is sad we are apparently losing an editor who knows a great deal about the subject, they simply do not understand why their actions are wrong per our policies. -MBK004 05:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- More bad news. It appears from this AchimKoerver prefers to quit WP & delete all the pages he's put up... (I did try & encourage him to stay.) TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 04:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
- Or maybe not...judging by this. :( For which I tried leaving a friendly note (on top of TheWeakWilled's warning). For the effort AchimKoerver's put in, it'd be a real shame to see him blocked. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 16:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- I may have spoken too soon. This & this suggest an inability to recognize a citation needn't quote from the source entire, nor retain original formatting. I'm disinclined to suffer reversion... I did leave a note on his talk, where I see previous cmt in the same vein. Maybe just inexperience? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 16:12, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- From the interactions I've had with the user, and the evidence here, it just strikes me as a user who has not yet made the transition from history work to Wikipedia writing. SGGH ping! 11:52, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I ended up looking into this situation from a tangent while looking at something else only slightly related (but not related to Achim). For the past few days, I've been going through all the contributions of Achim, so I can get a grasp on the nature of the controversy, and I did not know until today that this long discussion even existed (thanks to SGGH for pointing it out to me). I believe some of the above was a misunderstanding. If you will all look at the SM U-92 article, you will see a new way that Achim is presenting the data so as to, show the actual source document in an image, which makes clear that what he is providing is simply a strict transcription of that image. I believe that that, not OWN is why he placed the particular hidden message. Not to claim ownership but merely to point out that *what follows* is a transcription. In a few cases, he tried to enquote the material to make this even more clear, but that enquoting was reverted. Enquoting or <blockquote>ing might be another way to make that more clear to a casual reader. Achim's primary language is not English and so the way he expresses himself is not that clear. His use of the word "citation" for example I believe means "quotation". At any rate, I have been working with him a bit to try to resolve this.Wjhonson (talk) 19:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm afraid the issue goes beyond misunderstanding of "citation" or "quotation". This suggests any change to what he's written will be reverted. And, for myself, I find posting the actual docs a "See, I'm right'. As noted on Wjhonson's talk, AFAIK, nobody's questioning their existence or authenticity, nor the accuracy of the transcription, only the attitude over changes with no impact on the factual content. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 23:04, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- When you are providing a verbatim transcription, you should stick to only and exactly what it states. That's my opinion. And enquote the entire block you're transcribing to make that clear. Any notes or amendments can still be added before or after that transcribed block right? That's how I'd do it, in this same situation. The posting of the doc images was partly my suggestion so it could be made clear to the casual reader that the block of text is actually a transcription.Wjhonson (talk) 08:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. If I'm quoting verbatim then typos and all it all goes in with notes afterwards. I think it's coming down to a matter of style. If the section started 'Room 40 recorded the misions as . . .' then I'd <blockquote/enquote>. If it started 'Room 40 recorded the missions and they can be summarised as . . .' then as long as the data is accurately summarised, the format, spelling etc can be varied from the original. Reproducing the documents in full is maybe not the way I'd have written the section as it's quite a considerable part of each article but I can understand why it was done that way and can now appreciate the 'warning' given, clumsy as it might appear to those of us where English is our first language. NtheP (talk) 09:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Oh, I've no quarrel with blockquotes including every spelling error in the original. (I dislike blockquotes for appearance reasons, but that's another kettle of fish...) What I don't see here is the need to quote entire. (As noted elsewhere, some docs should be quoted entire, & some famous or imporant quotes, ditto. Can you imagine describing FDR's call for war 8 Dec, "Yesterday, the Japanese attacked"? 8o ) Here, provided the factual information is preserved, isn't a less "listish" page a better one? Compare this to this. The second preserves the information, & IMO is a better page. This isn't out of line (& I wouldn't stong oppose, but mislike); IMO, with the duplication, somebody's bound to del Achim's quoted text anyhow, sooner or later (probably sooner), so we've solved very little. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 11:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. If I'm quoting verbatim then typos and all it all goes in with notes afterwards. I think it's coming down to a matter of style. If the section started 'Room 40 recorded the misions as . . .' then I'd <blockquote/enquote>. If it started 'Room 40 recorded the missions and they can be summarised as . . .' then as long as the data is accurately summarised, the format, spelling etc can be varied from the original. Reproducing the documents in full is maybe not the way I'd have written the section as it's quite a considerable part of each article but I can understand why it was done that way and can now appreciate the 'warning' given, clumsy as it might appear to those of us where English is our first language. NtheP (talk) 09:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- I get the sense that he is trying to create an online digitised version of the National Archives holdings on these submarines (well that may not be his intention but it seems it will be the outcome). He is continually insisting that the verbatim transcripts be retained, and left unedited, but now as a semi-compromise the version at SM U-79 has been proposed, which is half actual researched article along wikipedia guidelines, half a text dump from the archives. If he cannot be encouraged to actually write articles using his own words rather than the century-old words of British Intelligence, can he not be persuaded to try wikisource instead, which would seem to be the perfect place for this? Still retaining this uneditable, unformatted, at times misleading and incorrect source which at best just repeats what is in the actual article, and at worst confuses readers with inconsistencies seems flawed, and a sop to this author. Benea (talk) 12:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- I've only given this exchange a cursory examination, but it seems to me that [2] is the place for this info; links could be added to the relevant pages. Overwhelming articles with primary sources is certainly not allowed, but it would be a pity to ditch the work all the same.Dduff442 (talk) 13:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
<--I'm getting tired of this. Does anybody think this & this doesn't look like WP:OWN? Same content, only formatting changes, gets reverted. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 16:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
We do not have a requirement to write articles using our own words, in fact the best practices are articles which are partly secondary, partly primary, and partly smoothing that transition using our own words. I don't think we need to needlessly annoy a user who is in the process of contributing so much material, so disputing on this and bringing up policy issues isn't a good plan to move forward. I've suggested the version at SM U-79 as an intermediate method to move forward. I would expect that the prose portion could be expanded tremendously over time. All new articles look a bit odd when they are new, that doesn't worry me. Hopefully all parties can find a way to work together here, that's the goal. The article I pointed at is a compromise position.Wjhonson (talk) 18:38, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- P.S. please look at the user's responses on his talk about this. You can see that he is attempting, as am I, to find a compromise position where all parties will be somewhat happy. Hopefully we can let these articles develop over the next few weeks or so and see what they look like again, once the editing simmers down a bit.Wjhonson (talk) 18:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- P.P.S. Trek I know that here you were simply trying to undo the wordiness but your revert also removed the images. I don't think that's what you intended. The first section, which right now simply repeats the transcription is Achim's olive branch to allow you to rewrite it in a prose form. That's why it's there. Unless you no longer are interested in that kind of work.Wjhonson (talk) 19:06, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
This U.S. navy officer's only claim to fame is some involvement in Ronald Reagan's funeral. Does this really make him notable in wikipedia terms? Seeking others' input on whether this should be AfD'd. Buckshot06 (talk) 02:19, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- On the basis of what's in the article now, no. The non-US Navy references only really mention him in passing. Nick-D (talk) 02:24, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- Notable. He's a flag officer. He commanded a large and important ship. He had a small role in a notable event. And if he gets promoted again, we'll look like real dills for deleting the article. Hawkeye7 (talk) 10:40, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
- Based on what we have worked on in WP:MILMOS#People, I would definitely say the subject is notable.
- As for the article, I am sure more reference can be found to support the content. That being said I wonder how much more the article can be expanded by. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 13:06, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Notability of war heroes
I would invite all of you to please enter the discussion regarding awardees of high-level commendations for valor on the WP:N page. It is my assertation that winners of the MoH, DSC, and SS (and their deeds), should be considered notable in of themselves. WP:BIO already lists a set of guidelines for notability that includes such figures as professional sports players, Olympians, actors, professors, and Playboy Playmates as being notable. I believe that our war heroes should be considered no less so. Rapier1 (talk) 19:03, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- If you are talking about the highest awards (such as the VC) you have (perhaps) a point. But I would be very warey of such a list (for example is Sep Detrich a war hero?). Moreover how do you rate heroes from organisations that do not have medals, but who perform acts of bravery in combat (or even from before the wide scale issuing of medals? What about medals awarded for service but not for bravery (such as the Gongresional medal of honour)? What about civilain medals (such as the George Cross, an award for bravery.Slatersteven (talk) 19:10, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
If you are talking about the Medal of Honor, sometimes mistakenly called the Congressional Medal of Honor, that is the highest decoration that the United States military can award, and is the United States equivalent of the Victoria Cross. Rapier1 (talk) 23:42, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- Except the CMH can be given to civilans, the VC cannot, nor can the VC be given unless the act of bravery was under enemy fire, so again a differance. In this respect rthe CMH is closer to the GC. This is one reaso I am not sure about this, not all medals are recived (or can be given) for the same reasons. For example is Charles Lindburg a war hero?Slatersteven (talk) 14:47, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
- This project has recently developed a notability essay for military people which can be seen at WP:MILMOS#People and covers the kind of awards which can be assumed to mean that people awarded them automatically meet WP:BIO. Nick-D (talk) 23:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- This raiseas point, the George Cross is n ot (strickley) the UK's second highest award, its then highest award made to civilians and solders whos acts wer not under enamey fire.Slatersteven (talk) 17:40, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hero is almost by definition subjective. Sep Dietrich was a hero in his context. In another context, he was a war criminal. He is certainly a notable military figure. If I understand it correctly, the discussion has been to try to create criteria to achieve a more objective approach to encyclopaedic notability. At the same time, we can't lose the celebrity context altogether - how people were perceived within their culture or among their peers and how that affects their future life is potentially significant in its own right.Monstrelet (talk) 09:41, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
- This project has recently developed a notability essay for military people which can be seen at WP:MILMOS#People and covers the kind of awards which can be assumed to mean that people awarded them automatically meet WP:BIO. Nick-D (talk) 23:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps all this discussion occuer in one location? As, a great majority appears to be happening here. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 12:33, 6 December 2009 (UTC)
- Actually the VC can be awarded to civilians if under military command (there are I think some examples during the Indian Mutiny, and possibly even Rorje's Drift - comissaries were not strcitly speaking military at that time I believe). The George Cross is essentially equal in status to the VC, the Ministry of Defence refers to both as "Level One" awards. This all really boils down to the availability of relaiable sources. For the VC and GC, and I assume for other nation's "equivalent" award, we say that recipients are automatically notable since many books etc have been devoted to writing about the recipietns, the acts taht won them the medal, and their wider biography. In general such detailed sources do not exist for recipients of lower level decorations, despite their heroism, there are simply too many of them. Some individual recipients may have sufficient sources, but these will often relate to some other aspect of thier life that makes them notable in Wikipedia terms. David Underdown (talk) 19:33, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Additional opinion request
I have tagged certain portions of the article Eric Shinseki since September 2009 with clean up templates relating to WP:NEU, and recently WP:COATRACK. On the talk page section I have received zero comments regarding my opinion of the sections. On the article Helen Thomas, after some time, I removed the section that appeared to be coatrack related, and it actually improved the article by reducing the amount of POV related edits to it. Since it has been several months since this section was tagged, would I be right to remove the content in question? --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Disregard, I have decided to be bold and delete the content. If anyone disagrees I am sure they can always revert the edit, and discuss the reversion on the talk page. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 22:27, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
A-Class review for Vernon Sturdee now open
The A-Class review for Vernon Sturdee is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! -MBK004 22:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
A-Class review for James Whiteside McCay now open
The A-Class review for James Whiteside McCay is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! -MBK004 23:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Featured article candidacy for Cleomenean War now open
The featured article candidacy for Cleomenean War is now open. Comments from reviewers are needed to help determine whether the article meets the criteria for featured articles; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! -MBK004 23:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
ArbCom election reminder: voting closes 14 December
Dear colleagues
This is a reminder that voting is open until 23:59 UTC next Monday 14 December to elect new members of the Arbitration Committee. It is an opportunity for all editors with at least 150 mainspace edits on or before 1 November 2009 to shape the composition of the peak judicial body on the English Wikipedia.
On behalf of the election coordinators. Tony (talk) 09:39, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Here's A Question
The Tuareg Rebellion from 2007 to 2009 ended in 2009, yet the article (Tuareg Rebellion (2007–present) has the word present in the title. Should the article name be changed to reflect the ending of the war in 2009? B-Machine (talk) 15:54, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, this would seem sensible. I take it there's no dispute that it's ended? Shimgray | talk | 17:55, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
Killed in Action
We have several categories for Army personnel 'killed in action'. I was never sure where to fit David Bedell-Sivright as he died during the First World War, but it was via an illness brought on by an insect bite. So he died during the conflict, and would not have died if he had not been dragged to the Turkish front, but 'killed in action'? Could you verify if anyone who dies while serving in a war (training accident, disease, heart attack in the mess) should be categorised as killed in action or not. Cheers FruitMonkey (talk) 18:28, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- "Killed in action" refers specifically to people who die because of someone actively trying to kill them, to put it succinctly! "Died of wounds" is used to refer to those who die some time afterwards (in hospital, etc) as a result; the third category, of people who die as a result of being in the military but not because of someone trying to kill them, is usually recorded as "died on active service" or something similar. I'm not sure specifically how our categories are used... I note that many of them are "killed in [X war]", which confuses matters a little. Shimgray | talk | 18:40, 8 December 2009 (UTC)
- A couple of years ago I created Category:War-related deaths and Category:American Revolutionary War deaths to categorize non-combat war deaths in the War of American Independence, since "military personnel killed in action", as our categories are usually labeled, is just a subset (and often a small subset) of overall wartime fatalities. This approach has not been extended to other wars, but feel free to do so. —Kevin Myers 08:30, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
A-Class review for Thomas Baker (aviator) now open
The A-Class review for Thomas Baker (aviator) is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Abraham, B.S. (talk) 02:50, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Featured article candidacy for Frederick Scherger now open
The featured article candidacy for Frederick Scherger is now open. Comments from reviewers are needed to help determine whether the article meets the criteria for featured articles; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Ian Rose (talk) 01:29, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Tom Clancy franchise books
FYI, a bunch of Tom Clancy franchise novels have come up for renaming, see WP:RM for December 6th. These are military fiction and espionage fiction novels. 76.66.192.35 (talk) 04:55, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
Charles Fryatt
The Charles Fryatt article, previously a copyvio, has been deleted and rewritten from scratch. As such, it now needs (re)assessment. Mjroots (talk) 09:12, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
- I see you've gone ahead and done it; strictly speaking it's probably best not to assess your own work, but I've got no argument with your conclusion. Nice article :) EyeSerenetalk 12:44, 10 December 2009 (UTC)
A-Class review for Henry Wrigley now open
The A-Class review for Henry Wrigley is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Ian Rose (talk) 02:18, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
Featured article candidacy for Walter Peeler now open
The featured article candidacy for Walter Peeler is now open. Comments from reviewers are needed to help determine whether the article meets the criteria for featured articles; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! Abraham, B.S. (talk) 07:15, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
Open Discussion
Project participans might be interested in the following discussion. As a Third Opinion commenter on the subject I shall not make additional comments regarding the present discussion in the interest of remaining neutral. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 02:18, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Franklin D. Roosevelt FAR
I have nominated Franklin D. Roosevelt for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 19:07, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Peer review for Battle of Szigetvár now open
The peer review for Battle of Szigetvár is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! -MBK004 23:26, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Standard for Order of Battle?
Is there a standard format for an Order of Battle? Battle of Dennewitz has it with a cleanup tag. RJFJR (talk) 17:47, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
List of War articles
I got message this morning from CPAScott (talk · contribs) concerning the list of war articles we have, some which are in need of help. His concern is that the list of wars articles, particularly List of wars 1945-1989, List of wars 1990-2002, and List of wars 2003–current are currently in disarray, and made the following suggestions for improvement:
- The 1945-1989 list needs to change to 1945-1999.
- The 2003-current list needs to change to 2000-current.
- The 1990-2002 list needs to split; the 1990-1999 conflicts moved to the 1945-1999 list and the 2000-2002 conflicts moved to the 2000-current list.
- The 2003-current list needs its table to conform to the other list articles.
- All ongoing conflicts should be removed from the 2003-current list (a separate article exists for these).
A look through the articles does show that they are in need of standardization at a minimum, but I am open to discussion on whether the remaining ideas should be put into action. TomStar81 (Talk) 20:57, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- There was recently a discussion brought up by B-Machine (talk · contribs) who wanted to merge the 1900-1944, the 1945-1989 and the 1990-2002 lists to make a century long list running from 1900-1999 apparently along the grounds that it should be consolidated by century following the 1800-1899 model (the fact the other lists are not century organised seemed to have failed to register), and that it was stupid to do it any other way. The proposal did not achieve consensus, but several days ago he attempted to merge them all anyway. I've unpicked most of them because he was acting against consensus, but I think part of the 1990-2002 list remains in the 1945-1989 one. This could be removed and the article contents will match the titles. But rather than renaming them to match what B-Machine arbitrarily changed the contents to, let's sort out first what sort of time periods we want the lists to cover. Benea (talk) 21:07, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- There are really only two options here that I can see: either we settle on a roughly centenery system of 50 or 100 year intervals, which is obvious but actually goes against historical sense, or we try some how to sensibly divide the eras up, which can be very tricky as what may constitute a new era in one part of the world doesn't necessarily constitute one in another. How long are the lists - would it make sense to split them geographically as well (at least in part) or is this too much of an additional complication? Eitherway, I can see that establishing consensus on this might be tricky.--Jackyd101 (talk) 21:47, 14 December 2009 (UTC)
- I for one favor a 100 year approach, thus a list from 1900-1999, with a new one for 2000-2099. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:50, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Tom, thanks for moving my concerns here. I'm not so interested whether this group wants 50- or 100-year increments, but rather the disorganization of the articles as they exist now. For example, the 1945-1989 article includes a 1990-1999 table. But so does the 1990-2003 article. Its redundant. And, of course, why would a 1990-1999 table be in an article that, by its title, stops at 1989? While we are at it, why 1989 and not 1999? And what's with 2003? Seems rather arbitrary. So, this kind of cleanup can occur seperately and distinctively from the 50- or 100- year discussion. I'm not part of this project, but I propose that we clean up the 1945 to current articles and then can re-engage the merge or keep discussion. --CPAScott (talk) 15:51, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- My $0.02: by century, 1901-2001 (say). Admittedly not perfect... TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 00:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Military Budget
There is presently a discussion regarding the scope of the article Military budget of the United States. Other interested editors are welcome to join in on the discussion. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 01:38, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Battle of Mór - Balkan task force
The mil. hist. tag on this article's talk page says that there is on task force for this battle, and asks to propose one at this page. Other articles in this series (see Campaignbox at right for your convenience) have been put under the Balkan task force, so I propose that. It may not be entirely accurate thus to assign it, I do appreciate that (and it was not me doing the assignment but someone on the Mil. Hist project) but I guess it is a start so that you good people can take it from there. At the moment it's at stub class on your scale, but probably (like the others) needs to be assessed and likely will be start class (though I'll take no offence if it remains a stub).
Best wishes Si Trew (talk) 08:37, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- I've added this to the Balkan task force now. I'm not sure that what I've done is correct, so if other members of the project disagree please let me know and I'm happy if this needs to be changed. I'm not sure if there is a task force in which these articles would fit into neatly, although the Balkan task force does seem to be the one that it would be more likely to fit into. Apologies if I've stepped on any toes. — AustralianRupert (talk) 00:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Visiting hours and directions for cemeteries
Can visiting hours and directions for cemeteries be included in article for cemeteries for the American Battle Monuments Commission? I created the article for Brookwood American Cemetery and Memorial and some editor not only wants to delete the article, he has edited out how to find the cemetery and when it's open (see its Talk page). I have seen this information in other cemetery articles, which is why I included, in addition this information was not in any books about the area. I realize that WP is not a guidebook, but it does allow for certain instances to include this. Your thoughts? Thanks. -- K72ndst (talk) 14:22, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm "some editor". See the article talk page; I do not want the article to be deleted; K72ndst (talk · contribs) misread my statement. I deleted the visiting hours and directions per WP:NOTTRAVEL and WP:NOTDIRECTORY. I'm not sure how much weight the "other articles have it" argument holds, but am willing to defer to the opinion of editors who know more about this specific field than I do. KuyaBriBriTalk 14:46, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- I'm inclined to agree it's better not to include it. It's much better to leave that sort of thing to the cemetery's official site, as they are ebtter placed to deal with flagging up any temporary issues and so on. David Underdown (talk) 14:53, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- A non-project member here also agreeing with Kuyabribri. Including visiting hours and directions makes the article too much like a travel guide. The hours the cemetery is open does NOT add encyclopedic value to the article. Kyabribri, I see you reverted your deletions pending this discussion. I've added the "Unencyclopedic" tag to the sections so people can participate in this debate. IMO, we should continue all further debate on the article's talk page. --CPAScott (talk) 16:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
- Among the articles that work in getting to the location is Arlington National Cemetery and The Louvre. I suggest to work in the location of the cemetery into the article, but leave out the operating hours. -- K72ndst (talk) 17:14, 15 December 2009 (UTC)
Military Historians of the Year
With the end of the year nearly upon us, the time has come to reflect on the past twelve months to see which members of the project should be awarded this years "Military Historian of the Year" award. Any Milhist editor may nominate up to ten editors – this is to prevent any of our resident geniuses from nominating the entire membership list :) – but can vote for as many editors as they like. Self-noms are frowned upon.
The top three get the gold wiki, the silver wiki, and the bronze wiki respectively. All other nominatees will receive the WikiProject barnstar. Please nominate in the following format, with brief comments (twenty words max). Votes go under the nomination and are approval (ie support) only.
- [user name] [reason] ~~~~
- :# Support. ~~~~
Please nominate editors below this line. Thanks!
Nomination and voting
Please try to keep nomination statements to twenty words max. Thanks, and good luck! TomStar81 (Talk) 00:47, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Abraham, B.S, for great bios, branching out from VC winners into RAN, RAAF and general Australian Army work. This year contributed 8 FAs and numerous GAs, and earned 5 A-class medals, 2 Four Awards, an Imperial Napoleonic Triple Crown, and the Wikichevrons with Oak Leaves. An all-round active participant/reviewer and twice-elected coordinator. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support as nom. Ian Rose (talk) 03:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Strong support - you had time to write articles with all of those reviews? —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support For seemingly trying to give every article at the milhist peer review some useful comments, making the process useful. Nev1 (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support per nom. –Juliancolton | Talk 18:59, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support per nom, excellent work Abraham! Parsecboy (talk) 13:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Hawkeye7, for excellent Australian bio and battle articles, and penetrating A-Class reviews. This year he's contributed 4 FAs and numerous GAs, and earned 6 A-class medals and an Imperial Triple Crown. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support as nom. Ian Rose (talk) 03:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Nick-D, for his continuing "big picture" work, particularly achieving FA status for Military history of Australia during World War II, one of 5 FAs this year along with 2 A-class medals and a Triple Crown. Another fine all-round participant/reviewer, twice-elected coordinator, and admin to boot (and don't we all love to boot admins - sorry couldn't resist)...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support as nom. Ian Rose (talk) 03:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Strong support - great reviews at WP:MHR#A-CLASS + scary good article writer. Australian light destroyer project is one of my favorite articles, while Military history of Australia during World War II is one of the best articles on a large-scale topic that I have seen (I don't think you used enough books, though—I count 67. :) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:04, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support - Nick always writes great articles, especially the valuable "big picture" type as Ian points out. Parsecboy (talk) 13:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- The ed17 (talk · contribs) – For exceptional and prolific contributions to maritime-related articles, most notably historic battleships. During 2009, The ed17 has submitted to Wikipedia seven featured articles related to military history, two A-Class articles, and an additional eight good articles. He has recently been promoted to administrator, and has served well as a co-coordinator of MILHIST twice. –Juliancolton | Talk 04:55, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support as nom. –Juliancolton | Talk 18:59, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Strong support This is a hard worker who produces high-grade work, & very easy to work with besides. (Also, he pays well. ;p) TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 23:21, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support - Ed produces a ton a high-quality work, and it's been a pleasure collaborating with him on a number of articles, such as Amagi-class battlecruiser, our TFA on the 9th. Parsecboy (talk) 13:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Durova (talk · contribs) – She has added to this project's Featured Pictures (I counted 8 or 9 from 2009, although I'm sure I've missed some), and importantly has offered to share her skills with others and teach them how to touch up images. Moreover, her research for Wikipedia has had real-life results with the Library of Congress updating their records about this image. Nev1 (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- PS. Turns out those Feature Pictures number a lot more than "8 or 9". Nev1 (talk) 22:05, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support Nev1 (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support per nom. One of the primary contributors to the project's collection of historical images and illustrations. –Juliancolton | Talk 18:59, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Note: While the nomination fairly sums up Durova's dedication to the project, it seems to underestimate the amount of work she's done; according to User:Durova/2009 MILHIST project work, she helped bring 35 relevant pictures to featured status this year alone. –Juliancolton | Talk 04:45, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support - per Julian. Parsecboy (talk) 13:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- MinisterForBadTimes (talk · contribs) – Although MFBT has not nominated and Featured content, they have done diligent work in the area of ancient history, which is a weak spot for this project. He has developed Greco-Persian Wars to GA status, a genuine "big picture" work, and its importance demonstrated by the page views. Nev1 (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support Nev1 (talk) 15:46, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support Kyriakos (talk) 09:46, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Ian Rose (talk · contribs) - for making a significant impact on Wikipedia's coverage of military aviation-related topics. Ian has developed no less than eight articles to FA status this year (all of which passed ACRs first) and a further four to A class status, achieved large numbers of GAs and DYKs, been elected a coordinator twice and has made a very valuable contribution to the project's review processes. Nick-D (talk) 19:23, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support as nominator Nick-D (talk) 09:58, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support - per Nick. I'm always glad to see Ian's comments during ACRs. Parsecboy (talk) 13:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- BilCat (talk · contribs) - Bill has continued to tirelessly work on aviation and other articles to improve their accuracy and protect them from vandals. While not as flashy as developing FAs and the like, this kind of editing is vital for enhancing Wikipedia's credibility and a brief look at Bill's contribution history on any given day highlights the remarkably wide range of articles he keeps an eye on and contributes to. Bill has also continued to be a great source of advice to other editors working on aviation and military topics. Nick-D (talk) 19:23, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support Somebody after my own heart, actually: quietly but thoroughly raising the standards of quality. TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 23:21, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Support as nominator Nick-D (talk) 09:58, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- MBK004 (talk · contribs) - For outstanding work as both a coordinator for the project and for his consistent monitoring and updating the status of articles within the OMT page parameters. MBK always seems to be on top of things here, and is always among the first to lend assistance or to correct an error. Its an honor for me to nominate him. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:46, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Auntieruth55 (talk · contribs) - Come into the project like a breath of fresh air, contributing a broad range of quality articles (including 3 FAs), detailed and insightful reviews, and plenty of discussion. Recently earned the Wikichevrons with Oak Leaves for all this and more. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:25, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Parsecboy (talk · contribs) - I've already had occasion to compare Parsecboy to Bellhalla for quantity and quality of articles. If I have my numbers right, he's contributed to no less than 11 FAs this year, and earned 6 A-Class Medals. His dedication is something to behold, and earned him the Wikichevrons with Oak Leaves as well. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:25, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Sturmvogel 66 (talk · contribs) - Unlike my other nominees, Storm doesn't tend to target Featured status (though he has one of those anyway) but has produced a phenomenal number of very useful articles generally of minimum B-Class standard as well as at least 16 GAs (including a Good Topic), 2 As, and a stack of DYKs. Also 5 times winner of the Monthly Article Writing Contest. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:25, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Questions and comments
Eh? What qualifies someone as Military historian of the year? Volume? ratings? Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:19, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Ruth, the emphasis tends to be on quality and volume of articles, but being an all-round good egg helps (a little bit like WikiChevrons with Oak Leaves)...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:35, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Does the person who nominates the winning editor get a prize, as well? :) –Juliancolton | Talk 01:23, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Jappalang (talk · contribs) has done fantastic work getting the Battle of Barnet and Battle of Bosworth Field up to FA quality in 2009. His articles have been poached tagged by WP:Milhist, so isn't it only fair that Jappalang is eligible to be "Military historian of the year"? He has clearly done fine work in the subject – widening the project's scope, which appears to be obsessed with modern warfare – and yet because Jappalang has not added their name to the project's membership list they're ineligible. Is this fair? Nev1 (talk) 15:56, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Agreed. I think anyone who's contributed quality content that falls under the project's purview should be eligible, since, after all, the readers won't care whether he's explicitly a member of the project, just whether his articles are well written. :) –Juliancolton | Talk 19:03, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Submarines of WWI again
In the risk of being repetitive, shouldn't we encourage the use of Wikisource, linked from the article, for these images? Yes, the entries are better, but still not encyclopedic and there is no effort to place the content in context. Auntieruth55 (talk) 01:18, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- That's probably a good solution. Adding information from British intelligence records more or less verbatim and without even checking it against the published secondary sources on the boats isn't a great practice (I still don't think there's any need to use these records given the availability of published secondary sources which have drawn on German records and subsequent research). Nick-D (talk) 19:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
2nd Battalion, 87th Infantry Regiment
I have some concerns about the provenance of the 2nd Battalion, 87th Infantry Regiment article. I've put them on the talk page but have had no response, so am posting here. Apologies for bringing this to the wider forum, however, I feel that it is reasonably important that it gets resolved. Basically it needs someone with some knowledge of US copyright law. If someone, or a few people, with some knowledge would take a look at the article and then the talk page and give their opinion I'd appreciate the input. Apologies if this isn't the right place for this comment. Cheers. — AustralianRupert (talk) 01:37, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Most publications of the US Federal government are public. On this page, under #2, the policy states: "Information presented on the IMA Website is considered public information and may be distributed or copied unless otherwise specified. Use of appropriate byline/photo/image credits is requested." Although there are two citations to the website, I would say that there should be many many many many more. Most of the text, as you have pointed out, is is very close to the text on the Fort Drum webpage. Auntieruth55 (talk) 02:57, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Interested editors may wish to comment on this article's content and sourcing. Nick-D (talk) 06:47, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- I guess the user never heard of the Rape of Nanking! - BilCat (talk) 07:26, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Surprise attack
Shouldn't there be an article about surprise attack as a tactic? Or a historical list of surprise attacks? Especially interesting would be surprise attacks which initiated hostilities between two parties which were not previously at war, such as the German invasion of Poland in 1939 or the Japanese attacks at various locations around the Pacific in December 1941. Right now, the Surprise Attack article name is taken by the first album of the band Tora Tora, and there is nothing military written about the subject as far as I can figure. Binksternet (talk) 16:43, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- A source with intelligent arguments: Surprise attack: lessons for defense planning, by Richard K. Betts. Betts describes three kinds of surprise: strategic, operational and tactical. He says surprise was achieved but not a factor in the victory of Germany over Poland, which would have fallen in any case. He says surprise was achieved by Germany against France in 1940—strategic surprise in the way that war could be fought, a doctrinal, organizational surprise. He says Germany achieved a number of surprise elements against the Soviet Union in June 1941, with the timing, location and strength of the German attack coldcocking the Soviets, advancing 400 miles in four weeks. Binksternet (talk) 16:58, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- It's a potentially valuable add, but I foresee a huge page, esp if it's a list. How do you delimit "attack"? Grand strategic (Poland, Pearl Harbor, Barbarossa)? Strategic (NEPTUNE)? Or every tactical op somebody thinks achieved surprise...? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 18:21, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps the pertinant point should be not that it was a surprise, but that it was notable as a surprise.Slatersteven (talk) 18:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- There are also ambushes to think of. Nev1 (talk) 18:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Almost all military operations seek to achieve surprise, so this is probably too unfocused a topic for an article. Coverage of this issue might best belong in the Military deception article (eg, common and notable methods used to achieve surprise in different circumstances, etc). Nick-D (talk) 18:51, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- The military writing I've seen approaches surprise from two perspectives; either, surprise as an intelligence failure - (e.g. "why wasn't the Pearl Harbour/1973 Yom Kippur attack/etc. anticipated?) or from the deception perspective (e.g. how Op Fortitude worked etc.); the former is partially captured under Failure in the intelligence cycle, although it very much focuses on it from an intelligence cycle perspective, rather than the approach across the wider intelligence genre; as Nick-D says, the latter's covered by the Military deception article. I'd imagine that a list approach to 'Surprise attack' would be quite long; a piece that linked out to the relevant specialised articles, but brought them together into a decent article would be quite interesting to read though. Happy to help out with the references if useful.Hchc2009 (talk) 19:47, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Almost all military operations seek to achieve surprise, so this is probably too unfocused a topic for an article. Coverage of this issue might best belong in the Military deception article (eg, common and notable methods used to achieve surprise in different circumstances, etc). Nick-D (talk) 18:51, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- There are also ambushes to think of. Nev1 (talk) 18:41, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- Perhaps the pertinant point should be not that it was a surprise, but that it was notable as a surprise.Slatersteven (talk) 18:39, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
- It's a potentially valuable add, but I foresee a huge page, esp if it's a list. How do you delimit "attack"? Grand strategic (Poland, Pearl Harbor, Barbarossa)? Strategic (NEPTUNE)? Or every tactical op somebody thinks achieved surprise...? TREKphiler any time you're ready, Uhura 18:21, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Failure in the intelligence cycle
Hi, reviewing work for the year and noticed an inconsistency in the galleries. This is a portrait of George Atzerodt, who was one of the conspirators in the assassination of Abraham Lincoln. This portrait was taken after Lincoln's death on 24 April 1865 aboard a Monitor-class ironclad (either the Saugus or the Montauk). The background behind Atzerodt is the vessel's gun turret. Although Atzerodt was a civilian he was tried in a military court and executed by military personnel. This image is a featured picture and a selected picture in Portal:American Civil War, but not listed in the MILHIST galleries. Should it be included in our galleries? Durova381 20:16, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
Formosa Island, Japanese Territory
Relating to an unresponded to discussion on the fringe theory noticeboard an IP editor has added the Republic of China to the Government in exile article. Past consensus has been that the Republic of China is not in exile, as the IP editor has claimed; therefore, without new consensus or references provided, the content was removed from the article. Relevant articles relating to this topic are Political status of Taiwan, Legal status of Taiwan, and Treaty of Taipei. This is a highly contentious topic, and as such WP:NEU clearly applies, and discussion should attempt to remain civil.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:52, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
New article Manuel Mondragón
In case anyone wants to help fine-tune, I translated Manuel Mondragón from es.wiki today. He's a major figure of the Mexican Revolution, and inventor of the first automatic rifle, the Mondragón rifle. MatthewVanitas (talk) 01:56, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
- Thankyou Matthew. Articles like that are always good for helping redress our very heavy English-language subject bias. Buckshot06 (talk) 05:16, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
A-Class review for Battle of Ostrach now open
The A-Class review for Battle of Ostrach is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! -MBK004 04:40, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Peer review for Joachim Helbig now open
The peer review for Joachim Helbig is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! -MBK004 04:43, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Peer review for HMS New Zealand (1911) now open
The peer review for HMS New Zealand (1911) is now open; all editors are invited to participate, and any input there would be appreciated! Thanks! -MBK004 04:45, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Talk:Comparison between Roman and Han Empires
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Comparison between Roman and Han Empires. Gun Powder Ma (talk) 12:36, 17 December 2009 (UTC) (Using {{Please see}})
Category:Recipients of a posthumous promotion
I have proposed that Category:Recipients of a posthumous promotion be deleted: see discussion at Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2009 December 14#Category:Recipients_of_a_posthumous_promotion, where input from members of this project would be welcome. (Sorry for not notifying y'all when I made the nomination). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:27, 17 December 2009 (UTC)