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Heads up - public health in India
Heads up from here, in case you see a sudden influx of med related editing. Here is the actual source since the one linked is wrong. Praxidicae (talk) 13:45, 19 January 2020 (UTC)
- This is WP:SWASTHA. It looks like the main activity will be translating health-related articles from English into various Indian languages. It sounds like an Indian-based version of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Translation task force. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:14, 20 January 2020 (UTC)
Hello, I am one of the organizers for the SWASTHA project. I was not expecting that news piece and was planning on a later presentation to WikiProject Medicine, but I can preview it now. Yes, the goal is to apply the Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Translation task force model to about 10 English language article to translate them in about 10 languages of India. The project has three parts: managing the Wikipedia content development and translation; documenting a methodology for any expert organization to contribute content development labor to Wikipedia projects; and documenting ethical considerations when anyone adapts English language medical information to a language where many users are less empowered in Wikipedia or otherwise.
I am not expecting disruption of English Wikipedia but I have lightly drafted a couple of articles which are a bit unusual:
Wikipedia has always had challenges with intersectional articles. For the NTDs, we already have diagnosis, treatment, prevention, etc content in the main articles for each disease. That means that if there is an NTD India article, it should not repeat much, and instead should say what is different about India.
Regarding translation, the challenge is that if we adapt these for Hindi, we have to produce original content which removes Western bias from the core medical articles and probably replace it with bias for the region of Hindi speakers. This requires producing some original content, and we have no established methodology to present to organizations like universities which would want language students and medical students to collaborate on this.
This is what I have for now. Thanks for raising it. I will probably have more to show and be open for general feedback in a few months. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:37, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Eek! When you say "removes Western bias" in this context the alarm bells on my Ayurvedic and homeopathic woo detectors all start sounding. Please tell us that they just intend to correct issues of focus, rather than to "balance" coverage of evidence-based medicine with traditional. Official India is all too willing to support AYUSH in the absence of good evidence. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:54, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- @LeadSongDog: This project has a foundation in the standard of quality of English Wikipedia. Discussion about Ayurvedic content is outside the scope of what I plan to do. Anyone can edit Wikipedia and I am unable to say what anyone might do in India, which is a big country with lots of editors.
- I will show some Western bias, which would be easy to spot in lots of places. Look at the lead of Tuberculosis. In the Western World TB is a concern as a co-morbidity with HIV/AIDS. For India, HIV has a much lower incidence than in the Western world, so perhaps we omit HIV and instead talk about co-morbidity with a disease which is common in India. The English lead suggests vaccination for as a choice for people who live or work with people with TB and rarely children, but in India, the at-risk group includes young children. In English articles like TB we frequently include United States epidemiology in the lead, but for Hindi language, another comparison could be more meaningful. The English article mentions "consumption" as an old name, and if we sent this to a translator they might try to translate that, but I know that it would be better to just strike English language historical terms.
- Most English Wikipedia articles will have these kinds of Western bias and it takes some planning to identify and adapt this kind of text for translation. If you can think of a clever way of how and where to document the identification of this kind of cultural specificity then I would appreciate your advice. If "Western bias" is a term that puts you off, what should we call this kind of editing before translation? Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:18, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- "Western focus" maybe? I see where you're coming from but I think "Western bias" makes it sound like these articles are slanted in a way that violates NPOV. The examples you mention above aren't really NPOV issues, it's more of an editorial decision to focus on things that are likely to be relevant to English-speakers, versus focusing on things that would be relevant to Hindi-speakers when writing in Hindi. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:48, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
- Talking more about Western geography than India in that article probably is a straight-up violation of NPOV, of the {{globalize}} variety. There are more TB patients just in the city of Mumbai than in the entire United States and Canada combined. A neutral article might include English-language content (like the old name of consumption), but it would have geographically fair content, which means Indian statistics in preference to any other country. Other countries might be included, too, but India should be the headline for tuberculosis. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:54, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Blue Rasberry: Thanks for allaying the AYUSH concern, but en:Tuberculosis should give English-language readers a global perspective on the global subject. We already have en:Tuberculosis in India to give English-language readers a global perspective on localized subject matter (though it clearly needs some attention). WAID is right that the parent article does need globalization. However, if the goal is to match subject localization to the reader, then wp:SWASTHA/Goals should change the article being chosen for translation, not mangle the translation process. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:57, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- Talking more about Western geography than India in that article probably is a straight-up violation of NPOV, of the {{globalize}} variety. There are more TB patients just in the city of Mumbai than in the entire United States and Canada combined. A neutral article might include English-language content (like the old name of consumption), but it would have geographically fair content, which means Indian statistics in preference to any other country. Other countries might be included, too, but India should be the headline for tuberculosis. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:54, 22 January 2020 (UTC)
- "Western focus" maybe? I see where you're coming from but I think "Western bias" makes it sound like these articles are slanted in a way that violates NPOV. The examples you mention above aren't really NPOV issues, it's more of an editorial decision to focus on things that are likely to be relevant to English-speakers, versus focusing on things that would be relevant to Hindi-speakers when writing in Hindi. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 22:48, 21 January 2020 (UTC)
I've purged a predatory source from Maternal mortality in India, replacing it with [citation needed] tags, but really medical editors should evaluate if those claims should be outright purged, or a WP:MEDRS found. Some Medknow journals remain cited too (DOI 10.4103/...), but those are more borderline. Could still fail WP:MEDRS though. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 10:57, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- will look over weekend--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 13:50, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
Asperger syndrome FAR
I have nominated Asperger syndrome for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:43, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
- thank you for post--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 14:39, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
Therapeutic indication of medicinal plants
In case of most of the medicinal plants nothing can be found on the pages about their therapeutic use. One possible source is the webpage of ESCOP (European Scientific Cooperative on Phytotherapy), which, according to the guideline, can be used as reference. Escop has several publications containing scientific assessment of medicinal plants. Their résumés, including the indications can be found on their webpage (https://escop.com/downloads/category/monograph/). I started to introduce these, but some editors reverted and suggested to discuss the reliability of ESCOP, as a source here. Since there is a demand for authentic information on modern phytotherapeutic use of plants (historical use is interesting, but sometimes useless), I think that it would be useful to use this source. I would be grateful for you comments. --Csupord (talk) 15:56, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
- Although ESCOP (a European herbalism society) appears to be a legitimate organization for studying the possible therapeutic effects of plants, the list of monographs offered is commercial (discouraged, see WP:PROMO) and not an encyclopedic source by itself (see WP:MEDREV), as the level of source quality and clinical consensus cannot be assessed from that list of monographs. ESCOP as an article is currently under a deletion discussion here. Clinical research in herbalism is typically of low quality (poor experimental designs, low subject numbers, inconsistent material preparations), discussed partly here. ESCOP publishes Phytomedicine which has an impact factor of about 4, depending on IF source, and among journals publishing herbalism articles, is probably the highest rated, indicating a generally low-quality field of clinical research in herbalism. Csupord has been using the ESCOP monograph list as a source over numerous plant articles shown here, meeting resistance among other editors. Generally, there are few examples of plant compounds succeeding in well-designed, rigorously-reviewed studies meeting WP:MEDSCI standards. --Zefr (talk) 17:33, 26 January 2020 (UTC)
I appreciate your opinion. However, to be objective: ESCOP monographs are available also in books, the reason why I cited them the nnline abstracts was to give access to the orioginal source - similarly as it happens in case of scientific articles. (Btw, is there any difference in the gusiness model of selling articles and selling monographs? As far as I know nobody has problems with citing articles that are available only after paying.) The therapeutic indication available in the outline is the same as in the books. Indeed, there are several poor clinical trials, just in case of synthetics. Of course everybody has the right to form opinion about scientific journals, but I have to tell that this journal is highly ranked and aknowledged in the scientific community. Nevertheless, Phytomedicine itself has nothing to do with the therapeutic indications of the monographs, that are partly based on clinical data, partly on empirical knowledge. In modern phytotherapy both well-established and traditionally based indications are acceptable, see https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/human-regulatory/herbal-medicinal-products My aim was to introduce information based on scientific assessment of available knowledbe, both experimenmtal and empirical. I think it is beter to give information based on the assessment of a scientific association than to present historical data from old books - as it is now in the majority of the cases.Csupord (talk) 19:52, 26 January 2020 (UTC)Csupord
- It doesn't appear to meet MEDRS, so would likely require caveats similar to what's used for folk remedies. --Ronz (talk) 17:41, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Zefr and Ronz: So you'd prefer to see something maybe from a reference book published by an established publishing house that regularly works in medical and scientific areas, such as Thieme Medical Publishers, right? Not just something on their website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
- No. I'm assuming that MEDRS sources are unavailable and that this should be treated similarly to folk remedies. --Ronz (talk) 21:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
- Agree, no. Topics in herbal medicine should be held to the same clinical source rigor that WP:MEDSCI prescribes. Csupord argues above that it is better to provide the ESCOP monographs as "available knowledge", but I say that knowledge mainly is unrigorous, unconvincing, and usually unsubstantiated, so should not be discussed as if it is, and should not be sourced by dubious "phytotherapy" journals or books. This is an example (among dozens of edits using ESCOP monographs) that Csupord added (all were reverted by other editors), showing false conclusions and folk uses of phytotherapy that may mislead unsuspecting encyclopedia users. On his user page, Csupord reveals that phytotherapy is his topic of university research, so WP:COI in promoting ESCOP literature may be at play. He is also an ESCOP member and leads a "medicinal plant" committee. --Zefr (talk) 00:44, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- MEDSCI says "present prevailing medical or scientific consensus, which can be found in...in textbooks, or in some forms of monographs". WP:MEDBOOK says that "a monograph or chapter in a textbook intended for professionals or postgraduates" is better than a textbook for student. You seem to be assuming that the source's reliability can be determined according to whether it supports a particular POV, rather than according to the criteria laid out in the sourcing policies and guidelines (which look a lot more like "It is published by a reputable publishing house, rather than by the author(s)" than "that entire field is unconvincing, so we can't use sources written by anyone in it"]). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:05, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, but all of the "monographs" published by ESCOP are online pdfs written by their members. So what makes ESCOP a reliable publishing house? Is it a reputation for publishing high quality textbooks and monographs? Are these used extensively in higher education courses? I'm sorry but I can't take seriously a publisher/author that so vastly overstates the effects of herbal remedies when compared to a mainstream source like the European Medicines Agency. YMMV. --RexxS (talk) 18:29, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- I haven't asked whether ESCOP is a reliable publisher of their website. I've asked whether Thieme Medical Publishers, whose books appear to have been cited in more than 100 articles, is the kind of publisher that MEDBOOK is looking for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:20, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- Indeed, maybe I am not an authentic person as a researcher involved in this field, as a teacher at a university, as an author of several reserch paper dealing with med plants (including meta-analyses), as an ESCOP scientific board member and as an ex-member of the European Medicines Agency Committee on Herbal Medicinal Products. Maybe it would be easier if I would be an outsider. However, I have to draw your attention that ESCOP monographs are not simply written by ESCOP sci com members, but disussed by all the members in several rounds and supervised by acknowledged supervising editors (https://escop.com/about-escop/supervising-editors/). And if you think that ESCOP monographs overstate the effects compared to EMA monograps, I have to admit, that this is not the case. If an EMA monograph contains only a traditional-use indications, these are based not on real empirical knowledge, but only on the evidence which comes from products that are on the European market since at least 30 years. ESCOP monographs are more pragmatic, since these take into account all the evidences, without time and geographical limits. Let us take milk thistle as an example. The standardized extract of this (silymarin) is available all over Europe as hepatoprotective medicine, its efficacy is proven by several studies, but according to EMA the only indication is: "Traditional herbal medicinal product for the symptomatic relief of digestive disorders, sensation of fullness and indigestion and to support the liver function, after serious conditions have been excluded by a medical doctor." (https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/documents/herbal-monograph/final-european-union-herbal-monograph-silybum-marianum-l-gaertn-fructus_en.pdf) Do we really think that this reflects the real therapeutic use? Csupord (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2020 (UTC)Csupord
- I haven't asked whether ESCOP is a reliable publisher of their website. I've asked whether Thieme Medical Publishers, whose books appear to have been cited in more than 100 articles, is the kind of publisher that MEDBOOK is looking for. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:20, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, but all of the "monographs" published by ESCOP are online pdfs written by their members. So what makes ESCOP a reliable publishing house? Is it a reputation for publishing high quality textbooks and monographs? Are these used extensively in higher education courses? I'm sorry but I can't take seriously a publisher/author that so vastly overstates the effects of herbal remedies when compared to a mainstream source like the European Medicines Agency. YMMV. --RexxS (talk) 18:29, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- MEDSCI says "present prevailing medical or scientific consensus, which can be found in...in textbooks, or in some forms of monographs". WP:MEDBOOK says that "a monograph or chapter in a textbook intended for professionals or postgraduates" is better than a textbook for student. You seem to be assuming that the source's reliability can be determined according to whether it supports a particular POV, rather than according to the criteria laid out in the sourcing policies and guidelines (which look a lot more like "It is published by a reputable publishing house, rather than by the author(s)" than "that entire field is unconvincing, so we can't use sources written by anyone in it"]). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:05, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- Agree, no. Topics in herbal medicine should be held to the same clinical source rigor that WP:MEDSCI prescribes. Csupord argues above that it is better to provide the ESCOP monographs as "available knowledge", but I say that knowledge mainly is unrigorous, unconvincing, and usually unsubstantiated, so should not be discussed as if it is, and should not be sourced by dubious "phytotherapy" journals or books. This is an example (among dozens of edits using ESCOP monographs) that Csupord added (all were reverted by other editors), showing false conclusions and folk uses of phytotherapy that may mislead unsuspecting encyclopedia users. On his user page, Csupord reveals that phytotherapy is his topic of university research, so WP:COI in promoting ESCOP literature may be at play. He is also an ESCOP member and leads a "medicinal plant" committee. --Zefr (talk) 00:44, 28 January 2020 (UTC)
- No. I'm assuming that MEDRS sources are unavailable and that this should be treated similarly to folk remedies. --Ronz (talk) 21:36, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
- @Zefr and Ronz: So you'd prefer to see something maybe from a reference book published by an established publishing house that regularly works in medical and scientific areas, such as Thieme Medical Publishers, right? Not just something on their website. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:34, 27 January 2020 (UTC)
WP:MEDSCI provides key terms guiding choice of quality sources for medical content that should apply to the phytotherapy literature: 1) prevailing scientific consensus (by reputable experts grounded in evidence-based medicine), 2) rigorous well-designed and conducted randomized controlled trials (RCTs), as required for approval of prescription drugs, 3) applying skepticism about disreputable journals, fields, and traditional medicine practices, which collectively represent quackery, among other examples. The EMA position on herbal therapies acknowledges centuries-long history in Europe of using herbal remedies, and is not an endorsement of phytotherapies as conventional medicines. Csupord emphasizes that ESCOP monographs are based on long-term use of herbal agents, but the EMA states such uses are "without the supervision of a medical practitioner", meaning without evidence-based medicine. Csupord then claims that "silymarin is available all over Europe as hepatoprotective medicine, its efficacy is proven by several studies", but there is no MEDSCI source that would support that conclusion, but rather the opposite: 1) no benefit, no effect on liver inflammation; 2) silymarin should be avoided for its side effects and potentially adverse interaction with prescribed drugs; 3) a 2007 Cochrane review stated there was no evidence for liver effects of silymarin; 4) the 2018 EMA position statement on it shows there are no "well-established uses", and 5) Drugs.com says there is no evidence that "milk thistle is effective in treating any medical condition. Medicinal use of this product has not been approved by the FDA. Milk thistle should not be used in place of prescribed medication". There is no quality evidence or consensus of clinical experts supporting its use.
Nor will there be to the satisfaction of regulatory agencies like EMA or the FDA: silymarin (a seed extract) and similar "phytotherapies" cannot be financed for sufficient pivotal RCTs because such research programs are prohibitively expensive and the compound is unpatentable, leaving the research sponsor no protection of intellectual property for its investment. A 2018 JAMA analysis of clinical trial costs to fully develop a true drug candidate showed a median total-development cost of US$648 M, with average pivotal trials costing $19 M, and that a clinical research program must prove the new (herbal) agent "to be noninferior with clinical benefit end points compared with an agent already available," a standard phytotherapies rarely, if ever, reach.
Jimmy Wales said: "If you can get your work published in respectable scientific journals – that is to say, if you can produce evidence through replicable scientific experiments, then Wikipedia will cover it appropriately." The field of phytotherapy, the journal, Phytomedicine, and ESCOP monographs do not meet these standards. It is justified that edits like those Csupord made will continue to be reverted. --Zefr (talk) 18:00, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Proposal to split weight loss
Since July there had been a template at the top of the article on weight loss regarding a split proposal: Talk:Weight_loss#Splitting_proposal I removed the template but others might be interested in continuing the conversation there. It is currently listed as a high-importance article for the project. Biosthmors (talk) 01:56, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- The proposal is to split it into intentional vs unintentional weight loss. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:26, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think the split is a good idea. They are very different conditions. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:34, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Quite an important split (intentional and unintentional). Whispyhistory (talk) 10:02, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Please comment there, so that it'll be easy for everyone to take your thoughts into account. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:19, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- commented ... Whispyhistory (talk) 14:15, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I posted as well but I have concerns about naming, etc. in case others would like to continue the discussion. Thanks. Biosthmors (talk) 16:13, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- commented ... Whispyhistory (talk) 14:15, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- Please comment there, so that it'll be easy for everyone to take your thoughts into account. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:19, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Quite an important split (intentional and unintentional). Whispyhistory (talk) 10:02, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think the split is a good idea. They are very different conditions. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 08:34, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
NITAG, help to review the draft
Hi..
I just create draft article about National Immunization Technical Advisory Groups or NITAG in general (NITAG in the US is known as ACIP, and in Canada is known as NACI), refer to WP:AFC. Kindly someone please review the draft and accept if it is acceptable. Thank you. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:28, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject_Articles_for_creation/Help_desk--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:13, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Advice on referencing
Eg...With Angiotensin-converting enzyme 2...The reference to the "2019-CoV entering human cells via these receptors" previously used this which took information from this and this. However, the reference is now the primary research paper. What's the best way to reference the sentence "ACE2 receptors have been shown to be the entry point into human cells for some coronaviruses, including the SARS virus, and the Novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV)." ...the secondary source alone or both a secondary and primary or other? Whispyhistory (talk) 10:22, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Probably not the news story (which is probably primary; see WP:PRIMARYNEWS and Wikipedia:Secondary does not mean independent). Sometimes it's easier, especially with stuff that's in the news, to cite multiple sources. See also WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT for advice on combining the citations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:18, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thankyou for replying @WhatamIdoing:...much clearer. I'll read through the links you have sent. Whispyhistory (talk) 21:55, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
Third Man factor
We don’t really have an active science or skepticism board, and since this topic should fall under the general category of medicine, I’m hoping someone can take a quick look.
While working on cleaning up various articles about Ernest Shackleton and the Imperial Trans-Antarctic Expedition from the early 20th century, I noticed a see also link to Third Man factor from the Shackleton article, based on his personal experiences detailed in the memoir, South.
Looking at third man factor, I’m afraid that there is more of an emphasis on religion and the paranormal than there is on medical explanations for this alleged phenomenon. I’m wondering if someone here can try to fix that based on the most recent research. I always thought this was related to hypnogogic hallucinations from brain hypoxia, but there might be other causes involved. I’ve heard similar anecdotes and experiences stemming from high fevers, as well as intoxication caused by accidental ingestion of plants in the family Solanaceae. The article on oneirogen indirectly points in this direction.
Whatever the medical reasons for this experience, I’m fairly sure there is a better redirect, preferably one under the umbrella of the medicine project. Viriditas (talk) 22:15, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Update - based on the literature, I would like to propose that the article should be moved to sensed presence effect, with any discussion of spirituality or the paranormal relegated to prescientific, historical background reference. Viriditas (talk) 23:11, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Note, I’ve found the parent topic at its historical synonym, Anomalous_experiences#Sense_of_presence, and I’ve placed merger notices with a centralized link to this discussion. Viriditas (talk) 23:30, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
- Are you looking for Wikipedia:WikiProject Skepticism? WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:07, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- I just don’t think that project or the psychology project is all that active. If you accept that psychology is a branch of medicine, then wouldn’t it be appropriate for this project to address the issue? I can briefly summarize it for you:
- 1. The article subject term, Third Man factor, was invented by author John G. Geiger and used in several of his books and media works.
- 2. The subject of Third Man factor duplicates an already existing topic that is authoritatively sourced at Anomalous_experiences#Sense_of_presence.
- 3. I’ve placed a merge on the former term pointing to the latter.
- Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 20:16, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
- Psychology is distinct from the related branch of medicine, Psychiatry; psychosis is a symptom that can be studied by Psychologists and Psychiatrists. Then again, perhaps this is just dancing on the head of a pin. Klbrain (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
- I think that proposing a merge is a good idea, but I'm known to be a mergist, so take that with a grain of salt. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:54, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
- Psychology is distinct from the related branch of medicine, Psychiatry; psychosis is a symptom that can be studied by Psychologists and Psychiatrists. Then again, perhaps this is just dancing on the head of a pin. Klbrain (talk) 10:35, 31 January 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks. Viriditas (talk) 20:16, 30 January 2020 (UTC)
Mutation vs Variant
There is some disagreement on whether using "mutation" is acceptable when describing a rare change in DNA that results in a disorder (in this case CDK13-related disorder) or whether we should require the use of the less offensive "variant". This has come up by way of a GA review that can be found at Talk:CDK13-related disorder/GA1. I have found no discussions concerning this issue here, at the MCB wikiproject or the NPOV noticeboard page so do not know what the consensus on this is or if it has even come up before. As it could potentially effect multiple articles it feels more prudent to discuss it here than at a review page. @EllenCT, Canada Hky, and SUM1: who were involved in the review. AIRcorn (talk) 02:11, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Both terms are used in clinical practice and mean different things. A mutation is a change in DNA. A variant is a DNA sequence that is different from a chosen reference. Mutations can cause variants to appear in a genomic assay, but not vice versa. We speak of nonsense mutations, but not nonsense variants. And so son. They really are not interchangable, so which term to use depends on the context and intended purpose.--
{{u|Mark viking}} {Talk}
04:01, 1 February 2020 (UTC)- @Mark viking: That is very true. An event vs. a state. · • SUM1 • · (talk) 04:41, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- I really like the idea that mutation = event, variant = state; when I am king, I will mandate that everyone uses this precise and unambiguous nomenclature. Until then, I'll note that it's common for "mutation" to refer to the outcome of the event (i.e., the state), rather than the event itself. This can be verified by Googling "has a mutation" or "found a mutation". Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 01:43, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- See also this article in BMC Medical Genomics, linked by EllenCT at the GA discussion. In the context of personal genomics, it defines "mutations" as "DNA variants detectable in ... <1 % of the population" – a state-based definition. Adrian J. Hunter(talk•contribs) 01:55, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Adrian J. Hunter: Maybe you misunderstood that I was actually in support of retaining the use of mutation on Wikipedia. My comment was a defence against those trying to say you can't say a genetic condition is caused by a mutation, when the fact the word even more so refers to an event than variant does means there's even more reason to use it. But if it doesn't, according to your source, even better. · • SUM1 • · (talk) 05:11, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- (I've already learned something interesting today! Thanks for posting the explanation.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:11, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- There are a few medical terms that are now considered offensive, typically because schoolchildren use them pejoratively in the playground: "cretin", "spastic", "mentally retarded". Is "mutation"/"mutant" really in this category?
- How long before "variant" is considered offensive? *sigh* Axl ¤ [Talk] 12:25, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Deviant has made the transition.
- Mutation is fine, and WP:UNCENSORED. The encyclopedia should reflect the field as it is, not as we think it should be. Klbrain (talk) 17:53, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Does anyone have a good source at hand, so that this explanation can be added to the top of articles such as Mutant, Mutation, Allele, and Variant of uncertain significance? It shouldn't exactly say read like a hatnote ("If you're looking for the article about the event, rather than the state, then please see..."), but readers should be left with the same impression from reading the lead of the articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- I have textbook sources for "mutation" and "variation" which agree but not for "mutant" and "variant". Graham Beards (talk) 15:52, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: I don't think this is necessary. Both mutant and allele mention mutation in the first sentence, and "mutant" is much less used than "mutation" (there's no point pointing worried parents to the page for "mutant" at the top of the article for "mutation"). Variant of uncertain significance makes clear enough (I think) the relationship between mutation and variant in its lead. · • SUM1 • · (talk) 01:14, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- Wrt Klbrain citing WP:UNCENSORED, this policy is rarely cited appropriately. The policy links to the guideline Wikipedia:Offensive material and specifically WP:GRATUITOUS is relevant:
Offensive material should be used only if its omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternative is available.
. Editors should always take care not to cause gratuitous offence, and consider (as the OP did) whether alternative language is desirable, suitable, etc. On the article talk page, a standards proposal was cited and to me is evidence of academic writers trying to use language that avoids prejudice or preconceived ideas of what words mean (even if they do not). Readers will bring ideas of "normal" vs" not normal" when we use a word like "mutant", which for some article topics could be a problem. -- Colin°Talk 13:27, 6 February 2020 (UTC)- Good point Colin. You made me think. I call viruses mutants often as in temperature sensitive mutant. But I would not dream of using the word to describe anything much larger than a fruit fly. Graham Beards (talk) 13:56, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- Does anyone have a good source at hand, so that this explanation can be added to the top of articles such as Mutant, Mutation, Allele, and Variant of uncertain significance? It shouldn't exactly say read like a hatnote ("If you're looking for the article about the event, rather than the state, then please see..."), but readers should be left with the same impression from reading the lead of the articles. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:38, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Mark viking: That is very true. An event vs. a state. · • SUM1 • · (talk) 04:41, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
- Both terms are used in clinical practice and mean different things. A mutation is a change in DNA. A variant is a DNA sequence that is different from a chosen reference. Mutations can cause variants to appear in a genomic assay, but not vice versa. We speak of nonsense mutations, but not nonsense variants. And so son. They really are not interchangable, so which term to use depends on the context and intended purpose.--
- To return, therefore, to mutation versus variant. Mutation has as precise and well-understood meaning in genetic, for which which variant is not an appropriate replacement. Therefore, omitting mutation would make make many articles less informative and accurate. Klbrain (talk) 00:59, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- This might be something that needs to be solved with good writing. We should always use the word correctly (and we probably don't, in some articles), and it may need an explanation. We don't want readers to be thinking about fictional superhero mutations, and some (most?) of our readers will know more about comic books than about genetics. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:37, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
Enterovirus 71 article. Which wording to use?
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Enterovirus 71#EV71 or EV-A71?. A permalink for it is here. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 01:47, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- commented--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 12:09, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
RFC on the MSH drug database
Please join the discussion at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles/RFC on pharmaceutical drug prices. Several of you are already there, and I've love to see more of you join and share your views, whether you're agreeing or disagreeing with other comments, adding new ideas, asking questions, or contributing in other ways.
We're talking about everything (including the historical price of bread in the Netherlands – it's a truly wonderful discussion), but the central subject is how we should/shouldn't use a single database, the International Medical Products Price Guide (IMPPG, or 'the MSH database'), in our articles about common generic drugs. Three examples from articles have been given, and your views are wanted on any and all aspects of it.
Based on the specific comments, we'll sort out ways to improve the drug articles that are currently using this database. Based on the general comments, I hope to use all of your advice to write a proposal about how to describe prices, for MEDMOS. But that's for later, not for this week. This week, just come tell us what you think should be done with this one source. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:39, 4 February 2020 (UTC)
- give opinion(gave mine)--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 02:47, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
Puberty blocker article
Puberty blocker (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) Opinions are needed on the following: Talk:Puberty blocker#Neutrality warning/omitting endometriosis use of these drugs. The same newbie editor also created a section on the same topic right beneath it. A permalink for it is here.
More eyes from this WikiProject are needed on the article regardless. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 02:51, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
MEDRS at Race and intelligence
Does Race and intelligence require MEDRS sourcing? I raised this concern at AfD assuming that it fell under the general topic area, but there's been some pushback. –dlthewave ☎ 21:24, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
- best to read [1]--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 02:01, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'm familiar with the policy. Just trying to clarify whether claims of a genetic connection between race and intelligence are considered biomedical information. –dlthewave ☎ 02:21, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- I tend to think of biomedical information as knowledge derived from clinical trials / prospective studies / epidemiological and laboratory-based studies etc. that study treatments, causes, and courses of diseases. So I'd think not. That said, we'd want any scientifically-based article to be using the highest-quality scientific information. Biosthmors (talk) 02:38, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- Also, dlthewave, for what it's worth, after a quick scan of the article, it does appear to be more of a sociology-, culture-, and history-based article. This can occur with scientific concepts. The article title of societal and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome, for example, makes the intent of that article explicit. Right now I'd argue there's tension between what one might think is the focus of the article (I went to the article just wanting to see the current scientific consensus) with what is the actual focus. A more accurate title would be something like Societal, cultural, and historical aspects of the race and intelligence debate, in my opinion. Biosthmors (talk) 02:54, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- The current scientific consensus is that "race" is a social construct. "Race" is not science. Any article about race is perforce about societal, cultural and historical aspects. Bondegezou (talk) 09:47, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- It's true that race is a social construct, a label imposed by one social group by another. However, once you start hypothesising about the traits that you believe are associated with a racial group, you move into the territory of phenotypes and inevitably into the field of genetics, as the article Race and genetics discusses quite cogently. That is science, and not only that, but medicine as well. There is no doubt that the sort of fringe theories under discussion at the article nominated for deletion require MEDRS sourcing every time they allude to a connection between a trait such as intelligence and a racial group. There's no way that primary sourcing is good enough to support any such inferences. --RexxS (talk) 18:50, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- Genetics, science, sure, fairly obvious. What makes it medicine as well? · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:55, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Genetics has been defined as "a branch of biology that deals with the heredity and variation of organisms" (Merriam-Webster). Our guidance at WP:MEDRS requires that
"all biomedical information must be based on reliable, third-party published secondary sources, and must accurately reflect current knowledge."
It seems inconceivable to me that anyone would dispute that hypotheses concerning a particular supposed link between genetics and an organism's traits are claims of "biomedical information". --RexxS (talk) 14:50, 9 February 2020 (UTC)- Because not all traits have any "medical" aspect? For example, eye color is determined by genes, and eye color is a lot more complicated than brown/green/blue. Some people have a dark blue ring around the iris, for example. I get the "bio" part of that, but where's the "medical" part? Having that trait has no association with any health condition. I conclude therefore that it's not a "biomedical" subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:12, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Genetics has been defined as "a branch of biology that deals with the heredity and variation of organisms" (Merriam-Webster). Our guidance at WP:MEDRS requires that
- Genetics, science, sure, fairly obvious. What makes it medicine as well? · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 09:55, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- It's true that race is a social construct, a label imposed by one social group by another. However, once you start hypothesising about the traits that you believe are associated with a racial group, you move into the territory of phenotypes and inevitably into the field of genetics, as the article Race and genetics discusses quite cogently. That is science, and not only that, but medicine as well. There is no doubt that the sort of fringe theories under discussion at the article nominated for deletion require MEDRS sourcing every time they allude to a connection between a trait such as intelligence and a racial group. There's no way that primary sourcing is good enough to support any such inferences. --RexxS (talk) 18:50, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- The current scientific consensus is that "race" is a social construct. "Race" is not science. Any article about race is perforce about societal, cultural and historical aspects. Bondegezou (talk) 09:47, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, I'm familiar with the policy. Just trying to clarify whether claims of a genetic connection between race and intelligence are considered biomedical information. –dlthewave ☎ 02:21, 7 February 2020 (UTC)
- In addition to what RexxS stated, human intelligence does fall under the topic of neuroscience, which is why the talk page for the Human intelligence article is tagged with WP:WikiProject Neuroscience. WikiProject Neuroscience is one of WP:Med's related projects, and we (those who are familiar with WP:MEDRS and adhere to it) do use use WP:MEDRS-compliant sources for neuroscience topics. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 00:01, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
There are several templates about the 2019 novel coronavirus that pull specific data from early papers on the outbreak. Many of these seem on thin grounds with respect to WP:MEDRS. Input would be useful. See:
- Template:2019–20 Wuhan coronavirus data/Treatments given
- Template:2019–20 Wuhan coronavirus data/Symptoms
- Template:Coronavirus data/Patients characteristics Bondegezou (talk) 09:49, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- For example, consider how that first template is used at 2019-nCoV_acute_respiratory_disease#Treatment_research. Bondegezou (talk) 09:54, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Looking for a SARS partner/s...
There are several SARS-related articles on Wikipedia but few are linked to the subject or to each other - or if they are I haven't found the page/list/keyword/whatever that would correlate them. Is anyone interested in helping link/organize/disambiguate or create a list? Or knows how to go about it? Worthwhile in itself, it might form the basis for creating a Coronavirus outbreak overview.
Help or suggestions would be highly appreciated! Cheers! Shir-El too 11:18, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- User:Shir-El too, this list isn't complete, but it will give you almost 400 articles that mention SARS by name. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:05, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- Creating a navbox might be a good idea, depending on how many articles there are. I'd be happy to help with that.SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 18:53, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you! I'm 'technically challenged' (read 'ignorant') when it comes to the nuts-and-bolts and appreciate whatever you have in mind. Some articles are * Timeline of the SARS outbreak, * Jiang Yanyong, and * Severe acute respiratory syndrome-related coronavirus. Many Thanks, Shir-El too 19:26, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
- I created a basic navbox at Template:SARS using the articles in the relevant category. I'm sure there are other articles that can be added. Take a look and see what you think... I left The SARS Network out of the navbox because I'm not really sure what to think of that article. It looks like original research or a WP:COATRACK for someone's pet theory to me. Maybe someone here knows more about it? SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 23:09, 8 February 2020 (UTC)
Beautiful! Now how is it implemented and how do I add articles to the list when found? Also, some subjects have a sidebar at the top (Zoroastrianism) to give quick reference. Would this be too hard or time consuming to create? Cheers! Shir-El too 07:39, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- It looks like you've figured out how to add articles. :) You can add the navbox to articles by placing {{SARS}} at the bottom of the page. I'm not too familiar with sidebars... I generally see them used for topics with a very large number of related articles and I'm not sure that this qualifies, but I'll look through the query posted above later and see what I can add. SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 19:03, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Yes: copy-paste I can do. ;) You did a wonderful job already and I'm very appreciative. The reason I asked about sidebars is because they'll be needed sooner or later; this is the third or fourth Corona-virus outbreak in the last two decades. BTW I glanced through "The SARS Network" and agree with your evaluation. And would it be possible to put "Plague City: SARS in Toronto" under something like "In the media"? Meanwhile I've been editing the Timeline. Will start adding the navbox tomorrow. Many Thanks! Shir-El too 19:48, 9 February 2020 (UTC) PS Do you like jokes?
Congrats! And nice job...
This project is getting some nice airplay this morning in the UK, in a piece about the coronavirus articles in the UK version of WIRED. Well done! MeegsC (talk) 09:14, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- great work!--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 16:25, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the link! This is a great way to refute Wiki-detractors! Cheers! Shir-El too 19:53, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for the link. But please note this project has not contributed significantly to any of the coronavirus articles.Graham Beards (talk) 20:04, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Proposal to remove gender bias from WP:MEDMOS
Dear colleagues,
it has come to my attention from a recent study that there is still a long way to go to fix gender bias in Wikipedia's health information.
One of the important aspects is that WP:MEDMOS discourages, or does not mention, the potential psychological or emotional impact of certain medical conditions. We likely treat this too much from a narrow, medical perspective whereas readers on certain topics (as was mentioned in this recent study, e.g. abortion, menopause, vaginal dryness, but also cancer etc.) are likely interested in emotional and psychological impact too.
I will open an RfC at the talk page: here. I propose to treat this of course like any other aspect according to standard policies such as reliable sources, but I'm sure that for many of these aspects there is a wealth of research on the personal, emotional and psychological impact of diseases.
I would value your input on this important discussion (call cross-posted at WP:Women's Health).
--Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 10:07, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Idea for new community workspace
Hi. I would like to create some kind of collaborative workspace where coordinators or members of various WikiProjects would gather and provide updates and information on what is going on at each wikiproject, i.e. regarding their latest efforts, projects, and where interested editors can get involved.
For those of you at this very active WikiProject, your input would be very helpful, so I wanted to get your input on whether you'd be interested in helping me to make this happen.
we are discussing this proposal right now at:
* Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#Idea for new community workspace
Please feel free to let me know what you think of this idea, and please let me know your preference, regarding the options above. if you do not see any need for this idea, that is totally fine. However, I think that the majority of editors lack awareness of where the truly active editing is taking place and at which WikiProjects, and I would like to do whatever I can to help make people more aware of where the activity is, what they can do to help, and also which areas of Wikipedia offer ideas and efforts that might help them in their own editing activities. Please feel free to let me know.
- Would you be interested in an idea of this nature?
- If so, which option below seems most feasible to you?
- Create a new page/talk page at the existing WikiProject Council, where members of various WikiProject can gather to offer updates, information and ideas on the latest efforts at each of their own WikiProject, such as Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Town Hall.
- Create an entirely new WikiProject with an inclusive name such as
- Create a new collaborative page or forum, but not as a new WIkiProject, i.e. with some name like
- Create a new sub-page in my own userspace, such as User:Sm8900/Town Hall
- Create a subpage at an umbrella-type WikiProject that already covers a broad topical area, such as Wikipedia:WikiProject History/Town Hall
thanks. --Sm8900 (talk) 18:50, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Feedback on sources I cited in the Acupuncture article
Would a couple of you take a look at citations I added to Acupuncture#Specific conditions - scroll down to the "Sleep" subsection. Please let me know if any of the journals I cited are not reliable sources. I can answer that question with regard to psychology journals but there are so many medical journals sometimes can't separate the wheat from the chaff. ;-) Thanks! - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 22:30, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Citation Template Woes
Am I the only one frustrated with citation templates? It seems they almost always include superfluous information, e.g., stating it's an English-language journal or including the ISBN for a journal, and at least one field always needs correction, e.g., the date format is wrong, or authors' first and last names are transposed. ¶ I am not a programmer (far from it!), so I have no idea how difficult it is to create a citation template. I imagine it's not easy. So please don't take this as a diatribe against the hard-working Wikipedians who create templates, which by and large make our work much easier. ¶ This is mainly a reality check for me. I find myself frequently copying an easy-to-produce citation from Google Scholar, PubMed, or Zotero and pasting it into Cite > manual > basic form, which is not a perfect solution because it loses many of the automatic hyperlinks the citation templates provide. But it's much faster than manually typing every author's first and last name and all the other data into Cite > manual > journal. I am open to suggestions. :) Thanks! - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) (I'm a man—traditional male pronouns are fine.) 22:39, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Markworthen: I wouldn't worry too much about superfluous fields. Some wiki-gnome will come along and fix those. For your own use, you might want to try out this tool that generates a citation from a PubMedID, PMCID, etc:
- and this one for Google books:
- Hope those are helpful. --RexxS (talk) 22:51, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I rather like this DOI-based citation generator. SpicyMilkBoy (talk) 22:52, 9 February 2020 (UTC)