Welcome to the WikiProject Medicine talk page. If you have comments or believe something can be improved, feel free to post. Also feel free to introduce yourself if you plan on becoming an active editor!
We do not provide medical advice; please see a health professional.
- Unsure about something? Make sure to look at our style and source guidelines.
- Please don't shout, remain civil, be respectful to all, and assume good faith.
- Put new text under old text. .
- Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (
~~~~
). - Threads older than 4 days are automatically archived.
- Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Newsletter/Mailing_list
List of archives | |
---|---|
|
- In all Medicine articles (not talks)
- In articles with Top-, High-importance
- In articles with Mid-importance
- In articles with Low-importance
- In pages with NA, ???=unknown importance
- In the 1000 most popular articles (source)
Not mainspace:
- In all non-articles
- In all templates
- In Medicine navigation templates
Top | High | Mid | Low | NA | ??? | Total |
99 | 1,097 | 11,484 | 38,292 | 18,857 | 907 | 70,736 |
external links at Phimosis
Hi folks, an editor at Phimosis has been repeatedly restoring external links to what the editor acknowledges are anonymous Internet chat forums and advocacy websites, as well as one AAP website that does not mention phimosis. The anonymous Internet chat forums and advocacy websites are non-peer reviewed and give medical advice. The reason this editor gives for restoring the external links is that this particular editor finds the websites "helpful" or "useful"; I have pointed out repeatedly in this discussion on the article Talk page that the links fail WP:ELNO, Doc James has also pointed to WP:ELNO. Latest restore of the links by this editor is here. More input would be appreciated. Zad68
A relapse of a medical condition and resuming a drug misuse are two different things. I suggest creating a separate article about the relapse of medical conditions (maybe at Relapse (medical condition)?). Could someone experienced look into that? Thanks. Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 07:19, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
- Isn't substance abuse a medical condition too? 92.41.92.54 (talk) 10:35, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
- The current article is mainly about drug abuse, perhaps an article on relapse in general is needed? Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 10:46, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
- Ideally yes, but like many generic topics it would not be an easy one to prepare. 109.156.204.159 (talk) 11:42, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
- (ec) You could do that, but most of the article seems well off-topic either way, being about addiction and addictive substances. It was mostly added over a short period by an editor who then vanished Special:Contributions/Lexie_Vaughn, and should probably be checked for copyvio, and if ok moved somewhere more suitable, if there is such a place. Or at least move it to a narrower title, & keep this for the general medical term, on which there is certainly more to be said. Wiki CRUK John/Johnbod (talk) 11:44, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
- Agree. 109.156.204.159 (talk) 11:55, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
- The current article is mainly about drug abuse, perhaps an article on relapse in general is needed? Zhaofeng Li [talk... contribs...] 10:46, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think most people associate "relapse" as something a patient has done to themselves (such as drug abuse), while something like "recurrence" relates to the disease re-surfacing. For example, a cancer that came back "recurs," rather than "relapses." I'd suggest starting an article called Recurrence (medicine), as Recurrence already exists as a disambiguation page. --Scott Alter (talk) 17:18, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
- Per Dorland's:
- relapse
- recurrence
109.156.204.159 (talk) 20:30, 12 July 2014 (UTC)
Relapse is not specific to drug abuse, and recurrence is not specific to cancer etc. 188.29.89.155 (talk) 01:05, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think that, in common speech, the difference is in your expectations: if you expect something to be an ongoing condition that occasionally reappears or gets worse (e.g., multiple sclerosis), then you talk about "relapse"; if you thought it was an event that had finished or disease that had been cured, then you talk about "recurrence" (e.g., recurrent miscarriage).
- But it's not a strict rule, and there are factors like the terms preferred by experts early in the sub-field, which tend to be carried on for a long time afterwards. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:10, 13 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm not a grammar expert, but I have noticed a pattern to the use of recur vs. relapse. When these are used as verbs, the choice seems to depend on the actor (grammatical subject) in the sentence. Diseases, conditions, and events recur; people relapse. It seems less straightforward with the related nouns and adjectives. —Shelley V. Adams ‹blame
credit› 01:54, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
I came across a relevant passage by Siddhartha Mukherjee here, halfway down page 1 - he uses both, re cancer, in a NYT article about his The Emperor of All Maladies. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 12:53, 15 July 2014 (UTC)
Hello again! Maybe someone should take a look at this old AfC submission before it's deleted as a stale draft. —Anne Delong (talk) 03:13, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think while the concept could most definitely use an article, but this isn't it. The article points to nl.wikipedia.org in its references, breaking WP:Circular. It's a shame it can't be kept to just salvage in the future when needed, but I don't think we can use it now, no. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 08:14, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks Anne Delong. Post here anytime - this is a correct venue.
- I agree with CFCF. The sources provided are not the sort Wikipedia expects when making a new article. The article's author has failed to engage with five people offering suggestions for improvement, and it has been six months since last contact. I tagged it for deletion. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:47, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Reviewing "Editing Psychology Articles" handout for student editors
I posted here last week for feedback but looks like the thread's already been archived! I'm posting again because the revised draft is ready for review. I'd like any additional feedback by July 23, so we can get it off to the designer and get it printed before the start of the term. Thanks to those of you who've already commented. --LiAnna (Wiki Ed) (talk) 04:24, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Can a project member look at 1RLSsage's edit here? This is their third attempt and I'm not convinced it's much better than the other two. --NeilN talk to me 21:40, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
- There is nothing on PubMed about it. (The Journal of Parkinsonism and Restless Legs Syndrome is not indexed in PubMed.) Nor could I find a suitable reliable source with a general search. Axl ¤ [Talk] 22:22, 17 July 2014 (UTC)
Ordering of sections
At the cannabis(drug) article is being discussed here Talk:Cannabis_(drug)#History_section and on my user page. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:19, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
The article Cancer screening could use a little work. Some statements not in sources, some needing refs and some updating needed. See talk page (and tags) for details. Some of the other articles on screening probably also need a look over. - - MrBill3 (talk) 04:45, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Plenty needs doing - see Talk:Cervical screening and Talk:Cervical cancer for example. As always, the best way to see it gets done is to do it. Wiki CRUK John (talk) 09:40, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Question about Wiki coverage of Sicca syndrome
What is Sicca syndrome? It seems to me that every source I look at defines it slightly differently.
- Sicca syndrome ( sends you to page Sjögren syndrome).
- Sicca
- Dry_mouth#Sicca_syndrome
Wiki is currently mentioning Sicca syndrome in one line on Sjögren syndrome, but this is different from how it is defined on dry mouth article. It says that Sicca syndrome is specifically not autoimmune, thereby distinguishing it from SS. Should Wiki have a dedicated article on Sicca syndrome? 188.30.201.171 (talk) 06:04, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Pubmed doesn't give very many hits on Sicca syndrome - 7 reviews [1]. The topmost one might be the most relevant in clearing out what differences are [2]. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 08:34, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I blew the dust off my ancient copy of An Aid to the MRCP Short Cases (second edition, 1999). From page 221, primary Sjögren's syndrome (30%) does not have associated connective tissue disease. This is also known as sicca syndrome. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- But Axl, my point is the definition, where one is given, seems to be different in many sources. We have some which are contradicting your supplied source and saying that Sicca Syndrome is dryness not caused by autoimmunity. What is the verdict? Suggest short dedicated article explaining the varied definitions and linking to the relevant articles? Happy to do this work. 94.197.42.135 (talk) 20:02, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
- I blew the dust off my ancient copy of An Aid to the MRCP Short Cases (second edition, 1999). From page 221, primary Sjögren's syndrome (30%) does not have associated connective tissue disease. This is also known as sicca syndrome. Axl ¤ [Talk] 18:56, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Editorials and WP:MEDRS
What is the state of editorials and MEDRS? I recently read some editorials from Nature Neuroscience. Is this considered acceptable by Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources_(medicine)#Medical_and_scientific_organizations as they are written by the journal itself. I'm not for a blank slate on all journal editorials, but I personally accept Nature as a "reputable major medical and scientific body", am I right in that reading of MEDRS? -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 09:05, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- The language at MEDRS seems generally permissive of most kinds of sources in reputable journals, but with a clear hierarchy. Sounds to me like they are fair game as long as they do not contradict available systematic reviews.Herbxue (talk) 14:55, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- The use of editorials and other opinion pieces is regulated by WP:RSOPINION, which says that they may be reliable for statements of opinion (This author or publication believes the sky is green) but not for statements of fact (The sky is green)—or, if I may guess about what's likely to be more relevant, that X is pseudoscience. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Research editorials do have some opinion, and the also have clear analysis/synthesis of available medical research (valuable MEDRES compliant material). An intelligent reader can tell the difference. - Technophant (talk) 03:21, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- MEDRS discourages the use of "expert opinion". It names it as the lowest possible form of evidence, and later says, "Journal articles come in many types, including...editorials and op-ed pieces, advocacy pieces, speculation, book reviews, letters to the editor and other forms of commentary or correspondence, biographies, and eulogies. It is usually best to use reviews and meta-analyses where possible."
- Whether it is "MEDRS-compliant" depends primarily on how you use it. It is possible to use an editorial piece in compliance with MEDRS and RSOPINION. Generally speaking, that requires WP:INTEXT attribution along the lines of "A 2010 editorial in _____ journal said that '(brief quotation or paraphrasing here)'". WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:20, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- I think MEDRS should be revised to elevate so call opinion. Articles labeled as editorial can be used to validate research article if the editorial specifically names the research and affirms the conclusions. This would be an example of source being more reliable than the source being discussed. MEDRS is far from perfect. - Technophant (talk) 18:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Research editorials do have some opinion, and the also have clear analysis/synthesis of available medical research (valuable MEDRES compliant material). An intelligent reader can tell the difference. - Technophant (talk) 03:21, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- The use of editorials and other opinion pieces is regulated by WP:RSOPINION, which says that they may be reliable for statements of opinion (This author or publication believes the sky is green) but not for statements of fact (The sky is green)—or, if I may guess about what's likely to be more relevant, that X is pseudoscience. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:13, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Agree with much of WAID has said above. MEDRS specifically deprecates expert opinion; they should be used only sparingly, in-text attributed when used and probably not to contradict higher quality sourcing unless that opinion is of particular contextual importance (see WP:WEIGHT). I should also note that editorials in journals are not covered by the "Medical and scientific organizations" section, which I think applies to official position statements by these societies. Editorials are explicitly the opinion of the editor/author in question, and not a position statement by the publisher. For example, the journal Science is published by the American Association for the Advancement of Science; editorials published in Science are solely opinion pieces by authors, and are not the same as position statements by the AAAS, which are covered by the "Medical ans scientific organizations" section of MEDRS. Yobol (talk) 20:44, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Paper handout and online PDF for students in classes
Hello. We have an opportunity to design a classroom handout explaining health editing best practices. A draft is ready to go now at Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Education program handout, and pending community interest, perhaps we could send it to a designer to make a nice pdf for online viewing or printing on paper. I am not sure how we will arrange that but it seems doable if there is interest.
The meta:Wiki Education Foundation is a nonprofit organization independent of the Wikimedia Foundation which promotes increased involvement of professors and students in Wikipedia. They especially target universities, and they only can work with schools in the United States and Canada. For those who do not know, general announcements by this organization are made at Wikipedia:Education noticeboard, which is a general noticeboard for any kind of collaboration between schools and Wikipedia anywhere in the world for any purpose, and not just relating to that separate nonprofit organization.
LiAnna (Wiki Ed) was formerly employed by the Wikimedia Foundation to do educational outreach in all kinds of contexts. She is now employed by the Wiki Education Foundation and not the Wikimedia Foundation, and she is promoting education collaborations with them.
At User:LiAnna (Wiki Ed)/Psychology handout, LiAnna was seeking comment on a draft of a one-page handout to be distributed in classes which edit psychology articles. When the text for this draft is developed, it will be sent to a designer for attractive placement into a document, then distributed as a PDF and printed on paper. LiAnna would like comments on this paper right now.
When I saw this paper, I thought it would be useful for WikiProject Medicine since so far as I know, this WikiProject has collaborated with more classes than any other WikiProject, and since this WikiProject so frequently encounters student editors in medicine. In reading the paper, I felt that it had nothing to do with psychology at all, but was a general primer to editing health articles, and I imagined a fork of the paper which could be given to students in health classes just as the psychology handout will be distributed in those classes.
I am posting to ask that any interested members of this WikiProject look over this fork I made at Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine/Education program handout. I propose that we develop this, then if we ever see a class editing health content, we make this available along with our existing video perhaps in a welcome template like Template:WPMED welcome.
It would be nice if the Wiki Education Foundation could arrange for the same nice design work on a version of this handout for medicine as they are arranging for psychology, but this is not confirmed and I have not asked Lianna directly if this is possible. In any case, they have already designed this draft and they are going to make it look nice for psychology, so whatever they do, perhaps even if they cannot design it for us we can arrange something for medicine. Perhaps they also would like to copy any revisions we do to this one for they psychology handout.
Thanks everyone - please comment and revise the medicine handout if you like the idea. It seems like an asset which is almost ready to go live, in my opinion. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:53, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
Best practices for naming "controversy" articles?
There was an article called dental amalgam controversy. Its content is mostly about the fringe view that Amalgam (dentistry) in dental fillings causes a range of personal health problems. I was cleaning up the article and among other things, renamed it to dental amalgam toxicity, since the article was about the purported toxicity of the material and had, in my opinion, little information about debate or controversy despite presenting conflicting perspectives. A user suggested that my name change was not ideal because this person felt that it promoted the fringe view, while also saying that the original name was not good.
Does anyone know of a precedent in having names for articles on fringe concepts in medicine? Should these be called "controversy" articles, or is there another name? I proposed other names at Talk:Dental_amalgam_toxicity#Name_change_to_.22Dental_amalgam_toxicity.22. I am not sure what is best. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:08, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Without looking at this case in particular, I think for fringe topics the word "controversy" is not good, as it plays into the WP:GEVAL fallacy of implying that there are just "contrary voices" in play, rather than a (discredited) fringe and a (sensible) mainstream view. In non-medical topics the solution is often to cast the title in a way which makes plain the nature of the fringe views - for example Chemtrail conspiracy theory. Of course then there is a constant assault by fringe-pushers wanting to remove "conspiracy theory" from the title, but such is Wikipedia. Is the dental amalgam things a "conspiracy theory", a "popular misconception", a "myth" ... ? What do RS's say? Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 18:43, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for helping me talk this through.
- There might be two unrelated issues with amalgam danger. It kind of surprises me, but some sources from the WHO and others say that dental amalgam in the mouths of the deceased is the majority source of environmental mercury pollution. I think there is no dispute that bodies with mercury in the teeth need special care and reform of funerary practices, and right now, that content is mixed with general concerns about amalgam. If the article is called "dental amalgam controversy" or "dental amalgam toxicity", then this environmental problem which is unrelated to WikiProject Medicine work seems appropriate to include. With a different title about the health issue only, perhaps this content could be forked away and the issues separated.
- For the idea that amalgam causes illness, it seems to be all of the things you said, "conspiracy theory", a "popular misconception", a "myth", and something which is repeated by some prominent health professionals who are not reliable sources. So far as I can tell, all health organizations that take a position say that the research finds no danger in the practice, but I have not examined all the sources and the article will eventually need to be cleaned more.
- I hope that we do not need to resolve the truth right now just because no one has stepped up to parse the sources. I did want to sort the title... I am not sure right now what reliable sources say. I should think more. Thanks. Blue Rasberry (talk) 19:29, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- I prefer controversy, especially when there's an actual controversy with ongoing debate. It is far from accurate to say that the only legitimate controversy around amalgam is environmental. In addition to the patient health concern, there's informed consent debates and occupational exposure. On the patient issue, there is the 2010 FDA scientific advisory panel meeting, which was widely reported in the media as critical of the FDA's interpretation of safety (as was the 2006 scientific advisory panel). Unlike the 2006 panel, the 2010 one did not vote but the summary of the meeting concluded that the "Panel noted a likely susceptible subpopulation that is prone to adverse health effects after receiving amalgams, but noted also that this population could not be easily pre-identified at this time". This is similar to the 2009 FDA white paper which also noted that there seem to be polymorphisms with greater risk. Also, if I recall correctly, for reasons that I'm not sure are yet elucidated, boys (or at least some) excrete less mercury through their urine and it is unclear what that means. Anyway, I haven't looked into this in a while and it is possible things have changed. I'm heading out camping so I won't be around for follow-up, but that's my two cents. II | (t - c) 01:24, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Agree with Bluerasberry's comments above, to clearly demarcate the fringe alternative medicine quackery related to amalgam toxicity (i.e. the purported medical condition which results from the presence of amalgam fillings in the mouth) and the environmental concerns about amalgam disposal and cremation, etc. which is probably more mainstream and science based. Maybe even on 2 separate articles. 92.41.89.154 (talk) 21:10, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- Either of your two suggestions here sound okay to me, but it depends a bit on what the actual subject of the article is. "Environmental concerns" isn't so good for "making me sick", and "toxicity claims" might not be so great if it's mostly about mercury emissions from crematoriums. "Controversy" might works best if there was a time-bounded "event" around it and the issues were (at one time) considered reasonable or possible. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:18, 18 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Bluerasberry:: There has been a lengthy precedence for "controversy" titles (see Thiomersal controversy, MMR vaccine controversy, Vaccine controversies, Water fluoridation controversy, Aspartame controversy, off the top of my head). I do feel "controversy" is a more neutral than "toxicity" if the goal of the page is to discuss the controversial claims about the toxicity. Yobol (talk) 20:01, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
A draft at AFC has problems
Could/should Draft:Renal dialysis diet be rehabilitated or is euthanasia the best option? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 14:48, 19 July 2014 (UTC)
Could use some feedback on improvements
User:Seppi333/ΔFosB I'm still undecided on whether or not to use this image outside ΔFosB, but does anyone have any feedback - cosmetic or otherwise, for improving this? Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 05:12, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- I would personally chose a slightly different typesetting, as I've personally found it hard to get text to look uniform in SVGs. Apart from that, some of the arrows do not point to the receptor-ligand binding site. For example the arrow showing (glutamate) binding to AMPAR is pointing far below what looks like the binding site. Could you upload a .png file just to compare so that it isn't down to using non-universal typefaces. Take a quick look at commons:Commons:SVG_guidelines, it might explain some issues. -- -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 09:52, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Concerning the ligand binding sites on the AMPAR and NMDAR complexes, please note that both of these complexes are ligand gated ion channels. The central "binding site" depicted in the graphic actually represents the ion conduction pore (as shown in the case of NMDAR). The ligand binding sites are on the periphery of the complex (see for example File:Activated_NMDAR.PNG). (Note: the depiction of AMPAR should be changed to look more NMDAR in the graphic.) While position of the arrows may not look quite right, they do point to were the ligand binding sites are approximately located. Boghog (talk) 14:18, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- That is of course true, (maybe I should stop checking Wikipedia one last time 11 pm, and just wait till the morning). Apart from that I still think it might to a lay-reader be slightly unclear where/that they bind, and creating a small indentation to represent the allosteric site would help. As for 7TM receptors, there must be some illustration on Wikipedia we could reuse. The hard work of creating a clear and concise image has been done, if we simply fix the rest this might be ready for featured image. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 07:17, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Concerning the ligand binding sites on the AMPAR and NMDAR complexes, please note that both of these complexes are ligand gated ion channels. The central "binding site" depicted in the graphic actually represents the ion conduction pore (as shown in the case of NMDAR). The ligand binding sites are on the periphery of the complex (see for example File:Activated_NMDAR.PNG). (Note: the depiction of AMPAR should be changed to look more NMDAR in the graphic.) While position of the arrows may not look quite right, they do point to were the ligand binding sites are approximately located. Boghog (talk) 14:18, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Once sorted out I would think it useful for more general articles where we lack a graphic of comparable complexity. Wiki CRUK john/Johnbod (talk) 13:34, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- NMDAR, AMPAR, and CAv1.2 were the only structures I tried to actually model in a way that reflects their function. DRD1-DRD5 are simply geometric shapes that were intended to show similarity in function; I have no desire to try to create the squiggly mess of what a 7TM receptor is supposed to look like, so I went with geometric shapes. Since I wasn't trying to show AMPAR's function (move Na+ ions inside - not directly related to cascade) in the graphic, I simply chose to make it look like NMDAR to reflect their similarity as LGICs, without showing the ion channel. In any event, the point of the graphic is just to show the signal transduction that induces addiction to stimulants, but I went to far more trouble than the citations I referenced to draw a half-decent diagram.[3][4].
- About the text though, I'm aware of that page since I read it a while back. I agree SVG text is a pain in the ass to make look right, but I've learned to deal with it. As long as it renders as I intended (easily checked beforehand with this tool), I'm ok with using svg text. I'll upload one with no text some time in the future though. The font in the image is sans, but if anything looks different, it's because I italicized the text for emphasis. I'll see if serif or something looks better when I next revise it. There are unintended italics on DNA and dendrite that I'll remove as well; I forgot to remove those last night when I cut out a bunch of text. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 19:13, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
More eyes needed...we have an IP editor attempting to blank sections and remove a considerable amount of sourced information without explanation and continues to revert. I do not wish to engage the editor in an edit war, so I am requesting other editors' assistance. Thanks. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 06:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- You can request for an admin to protect the page for a month or so, the IP will soon lose interest. 94.196.107.143 (talk) 12:16, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Protected 1 month. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:41, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks for the swift response. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 18:27, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Protected 1 month. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 12:41, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Proposed category deletion
Note that Wikiprojects rarely get notified of these: Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2014_July_13#Category:Articles_lacking_medical_references_or_verification. WCJ/Johnbod (talk) 15:17, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
For anyone interested, a heads up alert is provided at the link above. Boghog (talk) 16:24, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Boghog This is an important issue and I wish that I could keep up. I confirm that I am interested but I am unable to go through FDA alerts and update Wikipedia articles in response to them. It would be nice if the FDA recognized that as many people seek information here as in many of the other dissemination channels which they used, and talked with us about developing Wikipedia's health content just as they would talk with any other health organization. Blue Rasberry (talk) 14:26, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Dear medical experts: This old AfC submission was declined because of lack of independent sources. Later an other editor created Ellyn Satter, but it doesn't have any independent sources either. I found book reviews, but they are mostly on blogs or personal websites. I'm not sure where to look, though. Is this a notable nutritionist? If not, there's little point in trying to merge the pages. —Anne Delong (talk) 17:15, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- @Anne Delong:: Thank you for the link. Since I have a Wisconsin connection, I will do what I can. --Ancheta Wis (talk | contribs) 18:44, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks, Ancheta Wis. I have postponed deletion of the draft for six months. If you move any content from the draft to mainspace, be sure to mention the draft's creator, Cldanaher, in your edit summary. If you can't find any reliable sources, the mainspace article may need to be sent to AfD; let's hope not. —Anne Delong (talk) 21:43, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Candida alternative medicine quackery not covered well on Wikipedia
I feel strongly that the small amount of discussion WP appears to have about the alternative medicine claims surrounding candida is not sufficient to provide high quality reliable information to the public. The candida industry is huge, and their lies go well beyond "candida hypersensitivity syndrome". There is widespread belief among sections of the public that a systemic candida overgrowth is possible, and special diets, antifungals, fasting, "detox", supplements and other things are required It is my understanding that a genuine infection with candida in the gut is very serious, leaving the patient fighting for their life in intensive care. Maybe there is some WP article on this topic that I have missed, but feel we need more content. 92.40.84.196 (talk) 18:40, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- I tend to agree. That's far too little coverage of a huge area of quackery. -- Brangifer (talk) 19:22, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is it possible to use some of these sources [5] to build content about so called "candida overgrowth"? I'm finding it difficult to find anything on pubmed or in google books. 92.40.84.196 (talk) 20:31, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- There are some decent sources on pubmed, for example [6]:
Candida organisms commonly colonize the human gastrointestinal tract as a component of the resident microbiota. Their presence is generally benign. Recent studies, however, show that high level Candidacolonization is associated with several diseases of the gastrointestinal tract.
- Is it possible to use some of these sources [5] to build content about so called "candida overgrowth"? I'm finding it difficult to find anything on pubmed or in google books. 92.40.84.196 (talk) 20:31, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
So there this some truth to it, but I see what you mean with dubious industry claims. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 07:07, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- I haven't looked at this for years; some of the claims can be entertaining if you forget that some people really believe this. Last I heard, the "industry" was saying that eating bread that contains dead yeast would somehow put live yeast in your gut.
- My overall impression was to wonder (as I do for gluten-free diets) how many of them are benefiting from eating less high-carbohydrate food and more vegetables and protein rather than from the ostensible goal of the anti-candida diet programs. I suppose that psychological benefits are also possible: restrictive diets and personally chosen "treatments" provide a sense of control over your fate. (And if your goal is to feel better, and being a true believer makes you feel better, then should people even care that your improved experience is due to psychological or placebo effects?)
- Anyway, yes, like Hypoglycemia, there's a mainstream condition under that name and an "altmed condition" piggybacking on the legitimacy of the recognized one. Writing a good article there will be complicated, and maintaining it will be even harder. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:51, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
RFC regarding neutrality and MEDRS on "fringe" alt-med topics
The RFC found Talk:Myofascial meridians#rfc_E441AA7 was started out of frustration due to a number of editor using a very strict, legalistic view of WP:MEDRS by removing all primary sources that don't conform to their POV. There's also a lot of bias in the result of this practice. I'm essentially treated as a vandal, with even non-controversial edits being reverted. The debate has been taken up in multiple talk pages. The opinion of experienced medical editors is requested. - Technophant (talk) 19:03, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm really disturbed in the trend here. My edits are being reverted and being called "fringe". There's a major issue with the interpretation and application of WP:MEDRS and Wikipedia:Fringe_theories.
- Here's the version of the article I prefer: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myofascial_meridians&oldid=617688415
- Here's the stripped-down version: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Myofascial_meridians&oldid=617677973
- This debate also extends to acupuncture, referred itch, and Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Issues with alt med not being able to maintain NPOV. - Technophant (talk) 15:27, 20 July}} 2014 (UTC)
- You write that the "debate has been taken up in multiple talk pages." Well, you only have yourself to thank for that situation because you have spammed it all over the place, and now here. You need to stick to one discussion and not seek support elsewhere by canvassing editors and writing on more and more boards and talk pages. If you can't work things out with the editors on a talk page, then give up, because your fringe POV pushing agenda is pretty obvious, violates many policies, and has been exposed. Unless you change your POV and way of editing, you're not going to get more support. On the contrary. -- Brangifer (talk) 19:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- If the same group of editors keep responding, I don't see what's wrong with OP seeking more diverse responses and opinions. -A1candidate (talk) 19:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- If policies are explained again and again by multiple editors and Technophant still doesn't get it, then we're dealing with a case of incompetence, POV pushing, and seeking to right great wrongs, all of which mean he is not good for Wikipedia. Your support for him places you in the same category and under the same spotlight and magnifying glass. -- Brangifer (talk) 03:55, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- If the same group of editors keep responding, I don't see what's wrong with OP seeking more diverse responses and opinions. -A1candidate (talk) 19:39, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
- You write that the "debate has been taken up in multiple talk pages." Well, you only have yourself to thank for that situation because you have spammed it all over the place, and now here. You need to stick to one discussion and not seek support elsewhere by canvassing editors and writing on more and more boards and talk pages. If you can't work things out with the editors on a talk page, then give up, because your fringe POV pushing agenda is pretty obvious, violates many policies, and has been exposed. Unless you change your POV and way of editing, you're not going to get more support. On the contrary. -- Brangifer (talk) 19:29, 20 July 2014 (UTC)
Forum shop, time sink, tendentious, IDHT aaaarghhh! - - MrBill3 (talk) 14:23, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Exhausted
Have come across another two users who have mostly simply copied and pasted from sources. I am tired of spending my days dealing with this rather than writing content. That User:Truebreath was able to make more than 3,500 edits over more than a year before being picked up [7] is sad. Many excellent edits were lost in the removal. The other user was User:Janbaekelandt and the two may be related.
We need a solution to prevent this and we need it now. We need foundation support. We need the foundation to take this seriously. User:Eloquence, User:Frank_Schulenburg and User:Jimbo Wales can the foundation support WP:Turnitin? User:Ladsgroup I am willing to hire you for this work if you want to take it on. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 01:42, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- I have just offered $5000 CAD for a working solution. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:01, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Doc, Please take care not to harm yourself, for the sake of the encyclopedia. We need you. Regards, --Ancheta Wis (talk | contribs) 02:56, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks no concerns of harm. Just see a serious problem that has been festering and needs to be fixed. Not sure if it is also a huge issue in other topic areas but I assume that this is likely. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is everyone aware of the Individual Engagement Grants? They actually do pay money for solutions to technical needs (not for content creation, of course, since that's what the volunteers do). —Anne Delong (talk) 03:15, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes aware of them. They are not available to everyone. My offer is. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- I'm under the impression that "you" can get the IEG and use the money to pay whatever contractors you need to. User:Ocaasi will probably know more. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:11, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Yes aware of them. They are not available to everyone. My offer is. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:22, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Is everyone aware of the Individual Engagement Grants? They actually do pay money for solutions to technical needs (not for content creation, of course, since that's what the volunteers do). —Anne Delong (talk) 03:15, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Thanks no concerns of harm. Just see a serious problem that has been festering and needs to be fixed. Not sure if it is also a huge issue in other topic areas but I assume that this is likely. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Doc, Please take care not to harm yourself, for the sake of the encyclopedia. We need you. Regards, --Ancheta Wis (talk | contribs) 02:56, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- I have just offered $5000 CAD for a working solution. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 02:01, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Have you posted the details of the offer somewhere, James? --
- Not yet. You interested Anthony? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 08:39, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Agree you might well get an IEG as managing rather than doing the process. In fact you should certainly be part of any application, as a very well-respected figure. It isn't quick though. Per here the next round timetable is:
- Proposals accepted: 1-30 September
- Committee members finalized: 15 September
- Community comment requested: 1–20 October
- Committee review: 21 October – 3 November
- Grantees announced: 5 December 2014
- Grants disbursed: December 2014 – January 2015
- Midpoint reports: April
- Final reports: JulyWiki CRUK John (talk) 10:20, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- I got a good, quick result here, at WP:VPT. I've been told about engagement grants but chose to go direct because of the suffocating time delay. I'm going direct for some illustrations I'm commissioning too. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 11:10, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Wiki Education Foundation is planning to support the development of a plagiarism checker tool. I pinged Sage Ross (as our product manager), so he's aware of this and can provide more information. @Doc James: hope you're feeling better. Best --Frank Schulenburg (Wiki Ed) (talk) 14:56, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Doc James, et al: The current timeline for Wiki Education Foundation is that we'll start exploring the plagiarism-checking problem in detail in the last months of 2014 and/or the first months of 2015. I'm currently in the middle of a request for proposals to find a development company for Wiki Education Foundation's first round of development, which includes a "feasibility study" for a plagiarism checking system. Basically, the idea is to do enough work on it to figure out just how big of a project it's going to be. By next month, I'll start working with developers, and I'm happy to coordinate efforts with anyone else working on plagiarism. The system we'd like to build (as a start) would be focused on just checking the edits made by student editors from our courses, but it will hopefully be a good starting point for scaling up to all of Wikipedia.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 15:56, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sure. We should talk so that we can co-ordinate. Were you planning on using the Turnitin API? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Doc James: Yes, since all that work establishing a relationship has already been done, I've been assuming that Turnitin's iThenticate API will be the most sensible thing to explore first. Let's try again to find a time to talk.--Sage (Wiki Ed) (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Sure. We should talk so that we can co-ordinate. Were you planning on using the Turnitin API? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 15:58, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Really exhausted
The Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring is usually one of the few methods of "dispute resolution" on Wikipedia that actually worked. However now it is appearing not to.
User:Technophant added a bunch of primary sources and a 1900s German alt med text that was recently translated to English which introduces a new "body system" to the standard 11 (the collagenous matrix and ground substance) [8]. They were reverted multiple times by a couple of editors. They re-added content four times making a technical total of 5 reverts in 20 hours. No block [9]
I am sure it will just take some time to straighten out Myofascial meridians and at least the page is protected now. Still contains the text "Continuing education courses in Anatomy Trains are taught regularly.[10]" Glad to see Wikipedia is helping out the "fearless" leader on his birthday. (per text at the bottom of the above link ref) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 09:45, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
- Fighting on the wrong side of losing battle is frequently exhausting. Perhaps you take a wp:wikibreak and take some time to think about what your reasons are for being an editor. - Technophant (talk) 09:53, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Second 3RR on a different article filed. If someone has the energy I think ANI is probably appropriate, topic ban or... I'm tired too. What about discretionary sanctions? Note also removal of warnings, extensive forum shopping, IDHT and clear POV pushing... - - MrBill3 (talk) 14:21, 21 July 2014 (UTC)
Poppy tea
Someone with experience on writing on opiates really needs to give a good look at the train wreck of anecdotes and unsourced waffle that is Poppy tea. To my mind, this kind of "folk remedy" article is where the biggest risk (both to readers, and to Wikipedia) lies—all it takes is one kid to die or suffer serious psychological trauma after taking diluted unprocessed opium as a cure for diarrhoea ("Well, Wikipedia says it's a traditional cure so it should be all right") and there's some nasty explaining to do. I suspect that because it doesn't fall neatly into either pharmacology or psychiatry, this one has a tendency to slip through the net when it comes to fact-checking. – iridescent 2 12:35, 21 July 2014 (UTC)