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== Helping new editors: Learn Wikipedia's unique culture == |
== Helping new editors: Learn Wikipedia's unique culture == |
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Helping new editors: Learn Wikipedia's unique culture
I recently suggested to a new editor (a medical student) that he/she/they seek to understand Wikipedia's unique culture. I wrote:
I suggest looking at Wikipedia as you would a patient and his/her/their family who are from a completely different culture than your own. Different religious background, different beliefs about health and healing, different gender role expectations, different language, etc. If you are the physician such a patient sees, you have to do your best to understand your patient's cultural background so that you can communicate effectively and treat them with respect and dignity.
Wikipedia is like such a patient because Wikipedia has its own culture, traditions, policies, and procedures. I can rail against the stupid ways things are done here (and there are a few ... ;^), but that's analogous to chastising a patient for "not doing what I said" when I didn't take the time to understand them to begin with.
So, I encourage you to look at this as an exercise in developing cross-cultural competence. You might decide you don't want to invest your time and energy in learning Wikipedia's culture, which is fine. But if you do want to improve the accuracy of Wikipedia articles, understanding this unique,
kind of wackyculture at Wikipedia is an important first step.
I'm sure I am not the first Wikipedian to think of this approach. Are there any essays, guides, etc., that discuss this idea? I want to provide the most helpful info to new editors. Thanks! Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 14:22, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think that WP's culture is either unique or wacky. Yes of course we have some odd, even inexplicable, rules; all societies do. I'll give a different analogy: our duty as editors is like that of the expert witness, whose duty it is to give impartial evidence to the court. I could easily cite several cases which went the way they did because the judge concluded that (apart from himself, of course!) there was only one honest person present. Narky Blert (talk) 21:29, 23 December 2020 (UTC)
- I can see how "wacky" might offend, so let's remove that adjective. I still believe our culture is unique, and more importantly, it is different compared to what potential new editors from academia, healthcare, etc. are accustomed to. My aim here is to retain new editors who show an interest in regular editing. (I assume that attracting and retaining productive new editors is a shared desire, but perhaps I am mistaken?) Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 01:16, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
- The English Wikipedia does a poor job of retaining new editors, and I think that there is a minority of established editors with a bit of a "pull up the ladder behind me" attitude. The idea that new editors are bad editors is both true and bad. We are more short-sighted than many of the other Wikipedias. If you look back at any of our early edits, you'll see how much help we all needed and how we screwed up. A few examples: I thought that
{{Cancer}}
and[[:Category:Cancer]]
were two interchangeable ways of writing the same thing, so I "helped" by randomly removing either the navbox or the category. The first article I wrote (which was about a highway?!) was partly sourced to a personal website. I once carefully merged two articles that had similar names but that were actually different subjects. Someone else had proposed the merge, nobody had commented, and I thought I was helping by implementing the stale request, until another editor (one of our physicians) noticed what I'd done the next day. But now that we're here, quite a number of us don't extend the same grace to the people who make the same mistakes that we made. - Some of this is the sort of difference you can explain: Academia may want you to cite the original or more authoritative primary source; we want you to cite a medical textbook or the most recent review article in a decent journal. We have some of those explanations, e.g., at Wikipedia:Ten simple rules for editing Wikipedia.
- We have our quirks, such as barnstars and pretending that reputation doesn't matter (True story: Last month, an editor suggested last month that there could be an optional feature that he could use to hide everyone's usernames on his own screen. Some prominent editors told him that Wikipedia's principle of "transparency" required him to look at their names. That's not "transparency"; that's demanding that we maintain a system that gives me more power than 99% of editors).
- We also have our problems. For example, we have editors who remove all articles from any journal that Jeffrey Beall considered, however briefly, to have a borderline publisher some years ago, and without noticing that some of them (e.g., Frontiers in Plant Science) are currently ranked in the top 5% of journals in their field now. I think that this is better understood as a cultural situation: We think it is so very important to show off our anti-woo, pro-science POV that we are willing to remove review articles from top-ranked journals that meet every written rule in the policies and guidelines.
- Then there are the things that I don't know how to classify. We are largely an inhuman site. We expect you to work like a bot that happens to have very clever language skills. We yell at people for normal human behaviors, like making small talk or asking to connect on social media. We think there is something wrong with you if you react to a tersely worded warning as if, well, as if I'd given you a tersely worded warning. You're supposed to think that I was being helpful if I write something formal like "Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted" on your talk page. That's ...not how humans work. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:59, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
- The English Wikipedia does a poor job of retaining new editors, and I think that there is a minority of established editors with a bit of a "pull up the ladder behind me" attitude. The idea that new editors are bad editors is both true and bad. We are more short-sighted than many of the other Wikipedias. If you look back at any of our early edits, you'll see how much help we all needed and how we screwed up. A few examples: I thought that
- I wouldn't claim to know a great deal about wikipedia culture. I'd note that some of the guides present a bit of an idealized vision of how things are, rather than how things actually are. I also get the impression that their can be a little "internet larping" going on at times. I would point at the existence of this book - old and getting a bit long, but still interesting. I'd also note that sometimes more knowledge doesn't help exactly. I remember an experience on some question and answer sites where I would go out of my way to "preanswer the stupid questions" and found that the response was "it s too complicated", sometimes you just have to let a process play out. I sort of think about Mill a bit when I think about this, and some lectures by Jonathan Haidt about values and the academic system. Also see WP:Expert Talpedia (talk) 18:20, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
- Try {{subst:MedWelcome}}, as that briefly covers the important of secondary (rather than primary) sources, or one of the other welcome messages on their talk page.Klbrain (talk) 22:56, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
- I can see how "wacky" might offend, so let's remove that adjective. I still believe our culture is unique, and more importantly, it is different compared to what potential new editors from academia, healthcare, etc. are accustomed to. My aim here is to retain new editors who show an interest in regular editing. (I assume that attracting and retaining productive new editors is a shared desire, but perhaps I am mistaken?) Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 01:16, 24 December 2020 (UTC)
- @Markworthen: I think that's a really helpful way of looking at it. I've seen several academics and a few clinicians jump into editing with a certain idea of how things should work around here (based, I assume, on the culture of reading/writing they're steeped in professionally), then leave just as quickly when they come up against some resistance. The one I see in academics the most is thinking that writing a Wikipedia article is the same as writing a review article, i.e. they use their personal knowledge of a field to decide which primary sources ought to support content. Slapping a banner on their talk page that links to MEDRS is something I find to be generally unhelpful. Without the cultural explanation, they tend to walk away thinking we're self-important idiots. For the newer editors here (or the more established editors with better memories than me) do you remember particular barriers or surprises that the rest of us should be aware of? I accept that onboarding new editors will always be a challenge, but anything we can do to improve that process could do our project a huge service. Ajpolino (talk) 21:29, 25 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not a medical editor per se, but I find that I get much better engagement from new editors in most spheres when I leave a short, casual, human-sounding note at their talk page rather than a template. People are just hard-wired to ignore boilerplate-sounding messages, especially if they're loooooong and technical. "Hey, I removed the edit you made at Some Article because An Extremely Short Explanation. Let's have a conversation before you add it back, okay?" Something like that takes a minute to type out, and the return on time investment is typically much better than reverting and templating repeatedly. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 01:15, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- We do see a few people who expect their real-world status to transfer over, and they are sometimes surprised or disappointed to discover that it doesn't. Some quit; others (maybe even most) come to appreciate it, maybe because they understand that On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog (or a PhD). In the situation you describe, I tend to take a "Sorry, I know it's weird, but..." approach. It's not bad to write a review article; it's just not how we (should) do it here.
- Let's see what some newer folk think. GPinkerton, Wname1, Danende, Jaredroach, Velayinosu, DrVogel: Your accounts are all less than three years old. What sticks in your mind as being strange, difficult, or wrong about editing? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:19, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- I've actually been around for a decade or so, but don't edit very much. The culture has changed a lot. It used to be that Wikipedia came across as repository of all knowledge; if there was an arcane subject, one could write an article about it. Now the emphasis on article creation seems almost more about what is NOT in Wikipedia than what belongs in Wikipedia. I am also surprised by how protective the culture is of the male dominated and crude language that seems to grip those who are most in control. Given the attention to diversity in the world at large, it would be nice to see Wikipedia move in that direction as well. Jaredroach (talk) 08:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting. I seen a reasonable amount of bluntness, indifference, ani threats, and personal attacks, but not really crude language (in the sense of swearing / metaphor). What aspects of wikipedia do you consider to be male-dominated. Talpedia (talk) 11:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- I must admit that as a man I often do not recognize the traditional masculine ethos that permeates Wikipedia. The fish who doesn't see the sea and all that. The following article helped me comprehend and discern the problem more fully. Some might characterize this article (below) as recondite, and it is certainly deep, but it's not inaccessible or exceedingly obscure. After I granted myself sufficient time to understand unfamiliar words and concepts, I began to appreciate the authors' astute, erudite, and profound arguments. I highly recommend taking the time to read this article and to ponder its implications for Wikipedia moving forward.
Sincerely - Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 17:45, 28 December 2020 (UTC)Menking, Amanda, and Jon Rosenberg. "WP:NOT, WP:NPOV, and Other Stories Wikipedia Tells Us: A Feminist Critique of Wikipedia’s Epistemology." Science, Technology, & Human Values. Published ahead of print, 13 May 2020. https://doi.org/10.1177/0162243920924783 (Open access). https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0162243920924783 (PDF).
- Here are some characteristics associated (rightly or wrongly) with masculine communication and that we see at the English Wikipedia:
- A strong orientation towards Us vs them – this goes along with black-and-white thinking. Either you are a good editor, or you are an inappropriate self-promoting newbie spammer. We are in charge, and they are nothing.
- Independent action is valued – just Wikipedia:Be bold. Don't bother us with questions about all the complicated rules. There's plenty of time to yell at you later if you screw up.
- Content is more important than contributors – it's okay if we destroy your love for Wikipedia, as long as we get the content right. Please be sure to get it right on the first try, because I'll just revert you instead of building on your contribution if you get anything wrong at all. Snarky comments in the kick-him-while-he's-down range get thanked.
- Winning matters – we talk a lot about consensus, but we don't reward or honor people who compromise to find a wide consensus. You need to win, and the other side needs to lose.
- Direct, blunt, instrumental communication is normal and encouraged – look at the conversations around user warning templates. "Clarity" is a key concern. Encouraging people to grow into productive contributors is not. (How helpful do we think those really are? The editors who write them and use them the most also tell you that it's disrespectful to post those templates on their own talk pages.)
- There are also positive aspects: Being detail oriented makes for precise, accurate articles. We are loyal to our friends. If your problem can be solved by providing information, then we will provide that information.
- And, of course, these labels don't map neatly to every person's gender, nor are they absolute. I'm a woman, but I have a somewhat masculine communication style, and almost all of us use both "masculine" and "feminine" styles in different situations.
- Now I'm going to go read Mark's linked paper.
:-)
WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC) - I had a read of this. I think I agree with the content of article itself - I've partaken of the epistemic injustice koolaid before, so can follow the terminology. I'd note that the article itself does not show evidence that women are excluded - but provides some citations that I am yet to read. There's a question about what level of representation you need to get "group objectivity", it may well be less that proportional representation of a group - or in some cases more, and one needs to think careful about trade offs are values of the things that might prevent proportional representation (though of course, all things being equal, if any impediment to involvement can be removed with little cost it should be). I also only really ascribe to "weak epistemic relativism": unique perspective can provide valuable critiques that should be considered rather than objectivity being impossible (though as you walk into sociology epistemic relativism becomes more and more true). I also have my concerns that for critique to be functional it must be possible in some way to argue against the critique - such that it provides a more complete truth Talpedia (talk) 00:34, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- Here are some characteristics associated (rightly or wrongly) with masculine communication and that we see at the English Wikipedia:
- I must admit that as a man I often do not recognize the traditional masculine ethos that permeates Wikipedia. The fish who doesn't see the sea and all that. The following article helped me comprehend and discern the problem more fully. Some might characterize this article (below) as recondite, and it is certainly deep, but it's not inaccessible or exceedingly obscure. After I granted myself sufficient time to understand unfamiliar words and concepts, I began to appreciate the authors' astute, erudite, and profound arguments. I highly recommend taking the time to read this article and to ponder its implications for Wikipedia moving forward.
- One of our best editors got started back in the day by basically adding fun trivia to medical articles, such as a particularly cool paper about some minor detail (not key content such as whether a drug works, but little things that might illuminate a mechanism or take a different approach). For the last several years, that kind of content has been reverted on sight because "MEDRS says absolutely totally no primary sources no matter what I don't care I can't hear you". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:06, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting. I seen a reasonable amount of bluntness, indifference, ani threats, and personal attacks, but not really crude language (in the sense of swearing / metaphor). What aspects of wikipedia do you consider to be male-dominated. Talpedia (talk) 11:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Thank you all for your feedback and ideas thus far. Very helpful! Talpedia - Thank you for the essay, WP:Expert - I had not seen that before (or I had forgotten it). Klbrain - Great suggestions. I often leave welcome messages, although following PMC's advice, I will endeavor to add a personal message. And I've seen {{subst:MedWelcome}} before, but I haven't used it very often, but I will now. :0) Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 19:54, 26 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for a fascinating discussion. I'm afraid I struggled with the linked paper: I'm sure most of the comprehension issues I had were due to my small brain and lack of experience reading that domain, but I also found it ironic that a paper discussing problems with Wikipedia should itself be inaccessible to the "general reader". I also struggled a bit with the references to other papers, cited as though those authors had established hard facts, or even consensus opinion, rather than just expressed random other opinions about Wikipedia. Anyone want to take a stab at summarising it? Or is it too complex a thought piece to summarise?
- In contrast, I was able to follow the discussion here (I think), and found myself nodding many times, particularly WhatamIdoing's thoughts. But what is to be done about it? We currently have a huge and prominent sub-topic of Medicine, where new editors who put the wrong thing between the
<ref></ref>
tags, and who exhibit normal, expected, albeit imperfect response-behaviour to being reverted, are, within minutes of dipping a toe in the water, given a final warning that they face being topic banned from all of Medicine, blocked from editing Wikipedia, and their name added to a "sanctioned users" wall of shame. Sorry for the length of that sentence. Perhaps WP:MED has improved: previously there was more of the pile-on of people kicking the newbie/unbeliever in the kidneys, and heaven help them if they went to ANI to complain. But I feel there is still a lot of turning a blind eye going on. A talk page "welcome" message isn't surely all we can do. -- Colin°Talk 21:53, 28 December 2020 (UTC)- I guess my summary of the paper would be that wikipedia should pay more attention to building a community and a process that produces good quality material, rather than just the content of the pages itself, and that key to having a process that can produce a community is diversity because no individual is capable of being aware of their blindspots. To me the distinction isn't exactly male / female more "high-trust ongoing versus low-trust short term" interactions. In the former you make sacrifices for long term interactions (a.k.a politeness / morality) in the later not so much. From my experience using "high-trust" behaviours in "low-trust" environments doesn't necessarily work that well for your well being, you can end up feeling repeatedly taken advantage of by people who don't "play be the rules". The thing is that wikipedia does get some value from "low-trust / drive-by" editing - particularly of the "someone of the internet is wrong variety". I'd also note that "us versus them" is more of a high-trust relationship phenomenon than low trust. I'd also note that some conflict is of value for "epistemic objectivities" and high-trust interactions make conflict difficult, in a sense you want an environment with friends *and* nemeses. There are probably metaphors to your supervisor / external examiners in a PhD or your company versus "the economic world" here. Talpedia (talk) 00:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm very much in agreement with your first sentence, and I hope WP:MED is getting better and has learned from past mistakes. I'm less confident in my ability to understand or characterise the behavioural good and bad qualities of the project in fancy language, only in simple terms: kindness, goodwill, collaboration, openness, listening, respect vs hostility, bullying, ownership, cliques, shouting, dismissal. -- Colin°Talk 10:26, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- So I used to internally call this sort of viewpoint "more goodness". The thing is that there are ands and versus there. goodwill versus truth, kindness and cliques and dismissal, openness versus collaboration, listening versus kindness, goodwill versus openness, goodwill and cliques versus shouting and openness. The desire for simplicity is the refusal attempt to understand these trade offs and a willingness to potentially create a *lot* of the bad in exchange or a little of the good, either through the bad not being visible to you or because you choose to not think about it or willingly ignore it. This viewpoint can be equally or more prejudicial than an approach that uses fancy language because the fancy language is hopefully there for nuanced thought rather just or its linguistic effect - your humbleness comes at a price to others often mediated by your prejudice. Of course, many situations are simple enough that the fancy language does nothing for you and elbow grease and conspiring to avoid the situation that requires the nuance sources can work quite well - maybe you can have you cake and eat it - maybe it's more important to solve the simple problems first. Talpedia (talk) 11:13, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not quite following your reply. I don't doubt that it is important for folk having deep thoughts about this to use very precise terminology and the jargon of the field. I'm not trying to dismiss it as just a lot of fancy talk. And I'm sure these things are not entirely reducible to simplistic explanations without losing vital elements. Ultimately, though, it still comes down to: what are we going to do about it. -- Colin°Talk 11:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with the last part. I guess I felt that there was argument along the line of "the fancy speech is there to justify nastiness" - which I tried to address Talpedia (talk) 11:33, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- No, that wasn't my argument at all. I genuinely founding it somewhat impenetrable. However, I am probably prejudiced about external publications analysing Wikipedia because I have seen so few that didn't make me want to sigh, but I hope that was offset by Mark's recommendation. As an aside, I counted the editor that the paper is dedicated to, Adrianne Wadewitz, as a wikifriend: one of the very few academics who understood how Wikipedia worked and thus was able to successfully run class assignments on it. -- Colin°Talk 15:11, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- There is another side to that image. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:32, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- No, that wasn't my argument at all. I genuinely founding it somewhat impenetrable. However, I am probably prejudiced about external publications analysing Wikipedia because I have seen so few that didn't make me want to sigh, but I hope that was offset by Mark's recommendation. As an aside, I counted the editor that the paper is dedicated to, Adrianne Wadewitz, as a wikifriend: one of the very few academics who understood how Wikipedia worked and thus was able to successfully run class assignments on it. -- Colin°Talk 15:11, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with the last part. I guess I felt that there was argument along the line of "the fancy speech is there to justify nastiness" - which I tried to address Talpedia (talk) 11:33, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not quite following your reply. I don't doubt that it is important for folk having deep thoughts about this to use very precise terminology and the jargon of the field. I'm not trying to dismiss it as just a lot of fancy talk. And I'm sure these things are not entirely reducible to simplistic explanations without losing vital elements. Ultimately, though, it still comes down to: what are we going to do about it. -- Colin°Talk 11:23, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- So I used to internally call this sort of viewpoint "more goodness". The thing is that there are ands and versus there. goodwill versus truth, kindness and cliques and dismissal, openness versus collaboration, listening versus kindness, goodwill versus openness, goodwill and cliques versus shouting and openness. The desire for simplicity is the refusal attempt to understand these trade offs and a willingness to potentially create a *lot* of the bad in exchange or a little of the good, either through the bad not being visible to you or because you choose to not think about it or willingly ignore it. This viewpoint can be equally or more prejudicial than an approach that uses fancy language because the fancy language is hopefully there for nuanced thought rather just or its linguistic effect - your humbleness comes at a price to others often mediated by your prejudice. Of course, many situations are simple enough that the fancy language does nothing for you and elbow grease and conspiring to avoid the situation that requires the nuance sources can work quite well - maybe you can have you cake and eat it - maybe it's more important to solve the simple problems first. Talpedia (talk) 11:13, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- I'm very much in agreement with your first sentence, and I hope WP:MED is getting better and has learned from past mistakes. I'm less confident in my ability to understand or characterise the behavioural good and bad qualities of the project in fancy language, only in simple terms: kindness, goodwill, collaboration, openness, listening, respect vs hostility, bullying, ownership, cliques, shouting, dismissal. -- Colin°Talk 10:26, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- I guess my summary of the paper would be that wikipedia should pay more attention to building a community and a process that produces good quality material, rather than just the content of the pages itself, and that key to having a process that can produce a community is diversity because no individual is capable of being aware of their blindspots. To me the distinction isn't exactly male / female more "high-trust ongoing versus low-trust short term" interactions. In the former you make sacrifices for long term interactions (a.k.a politeness / morality) in the later not so much. From my experience using "high-trust" behaviours in "low-trust" environments doesn't necessarily work that well for your well being, you can end up feeling repeatedly taken advantage of by people who don't "play be the rules". The thing is that wikipedia does get some value from "low-trust / drive-by" editing - particularly of the "someone of the internet is wrong variety". I'd also note that "us versus them" is more of a high-trust relationship phenomenon than low trust. I'd also note that some conflict is of value for "epistemic objectivities" and high-trust interactions make conflict difficult, in a sense you want an environment with friends *and* nemeses. There are probably metaphors to your supervisor / external examiners in a PhD or your company versus "the economic world" here. Talpedia (talk) 00:47, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
Coming late to this conversation, so I'm not sure where to best intersperse my comments, and will add it all at the end. I like Mark's general notion, but suggest that to avoid yet another page of instructions and descriptions and links and templates that never get read, that if he wants to do something, he might think about keeping it strictly focused on the researcher or practicing professional who has a hard time understanding the differences in Wikipedia writing, as the issues there are quite different than the issues, for example, with student writing.
I reject any notion that gender issues are somehow related; perhaps that I studied and worked in male-dominated fields, where I was usually the only female, means I just don't get it, because I don't. I think digressing into that usually takes our eyes off the more important balls, which here, are problems in how we treat newcomers.
Ajpolino asks if any of us "remember particular barriers or surprises that the rest of us should be aware of". I recall that it was very hard to figure out how to use Wikipedia (for months, I had something on my user page about "where's the instruction manual for this thing"), but the helpme template on talk always got a speedy response. More relevant to us here at WP:MED, the "anyone can edit" aspect for me, at first, generated disastrous results. I was trying to write Tourette syndrome, and no one at WT:MED knew anything about it, so that each time I came here with a question, I actually got bad advice (one physician telling me they couldn't believe that X was the case, since TS was a very rare condition is one example I can remember), so that I gave up on WP:MED at one point early on.
Berchanhimez tells us very clearly that the use of rollback and quick deletions is very offputting. And he put his money where his mouth is, and tried very hard to get something going (see User talk:SandyGeorgia/arch109#New editor "patrol") to address that. I am concerned he may have given up, dejected. As long as we have colleagues willing to accept whack-a-mole deleting and rolling back, we should expect to have a recruitment problem, and we should all reject that kind of editing, which often occurs as a misunderstanding of what MEDRS supports.
I am also curious about why some editors, even with a research writing background, seem to fit in seamlessly (Ajpolino, Berchan), where others seem to struggle no matter how much I/we try to mentor and instruct (and I have spent an inordinate amount of time in that realm).
Also, we have SO many articles unnecessarily semi-protected, that how are we to recruit new editors, who may want to first edit as an IP? The treatment of IPs and "newbies" is often horrific ... see a thread on this page now maligning a long-term and knowledgeable IP who routinely posts here. We seriously need to deal with this mentality, and move beyond the whack-a-mole mentality. I think we have so many ways that we need to get our house in order, regarding how we bring IPs and new editors in to the fold, that I wish we wouldn't see yet another conversation digress into being all about gender. We have problems equally at prostate cancer (one in six men) and osteoporosis (one in six women), and at times we give too much focus to niche topics, and neglect our highly viewed pages and core content. We give the impression of a group with odd priorities. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:37, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- To address just a tiny part of your comment, Cryptic was kind enough to give me a list of all protected pages under WP:MED. I dumped it all in my userspace and am hoping to clean up this list a bit and bring it here for discussion in the new year. Perhaps we can all pick a few to adopt and trial unprotection. It's not going to suddenly solve our recruitment woes, but I think bringing protection levels down to the lowest level necessary is a worthy cause regardless. Ajpolino (talk) 20:49, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Saw the ping and figured I'd respond since I have a bit of time... it's not so much that I gave up, more so that IRL has been... hectic? busy? I'm not sure there is a word for it. I agree with your summary of my view - rollback, deletions, undos, etc are very off-putting to many new editors. My sandbox pages (linked from my userpage) for new-user welcome and info page are open to all to use/edit/improve/work on - and I think it's honestly a documentation and "catching them before they leave" problem. I was lucky in that I had seen WP:MED in some news stories so when I was confused or shy at the beginning I knew where to go - most probably don't even know that a "wiki project" exists. If we can catch them before they give up and leave altogether, and "mentor" them to be good editors, that will help. I know the word mentor is scary because it implies a lot of time, but just a simple message of "hey, we were all there once, and I'm going to try to help you" is what I'm referring to. Give them some names to ping when they have problems - I was blessed to have SG and a few others who reached out and I could ping when I had concerns/questions and they answered them. On that note, I'm about to go give another few hundred shots probably.. and myself am dealing with a bit of malaise after getting the first dose of Pfizer on Monday, so I will likely not be available for any in-depth conversations.
- My suggestion is this: new editors that are struggling should be encouraged to work on a new article (or expanding a stub) before they get into more developed articles. For me, this was injector pen or depot injection, and the process of developing those made me learn the policies/procedures very well. If new editors are struggling on articles that are already written, having them work "from scratch" may help. Feel free to ping me for any more discussion, but I can't promise quick replies. I'm more likely to respond quickly to emails or in the wikiproject-medicine channel in the Wikipedia discord server - both of those notify me immediately but I hardly open Wikipedia once a day if even that nowadays...
- Hope everyone's staying safe and well and happy new year to everyone. Once my work dies down I'll be back and already have my next few improvements planned (subcutaneous injection being one I started on but haven't had time to dive into since the vaccine(s) were approved). Regards -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 20:57, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Two points. I wonder whether there is a "vicious cycle" that pushes editors into not being good editors (e.g. the first conflict => conflict mindset => escalation. I guess looking at case studies would be useful) - they alternative is to assume that there is some very difficult to change property of editors that don't stick around. I wonder whether there is an alternative to editing (such as reviewing pages / suggesting sources / reviewing / wikignoming / linking) that could somehow relax the learning / conflict curve and give people the time to both have some good experiences before their first conflict and osmose some culture early on. Talpedia (talk) 21:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Interesting thoughts. As to first conflict --> mindset, I know that as a recently established and productive editor, I had such a horrific experience with an admin cabal that I wrote off adminship permanently, and still abhor the idea, in spite of now knowing scores of very decent admins, and in spite of those who attacked me being sanctioned. My mindset against ever wanting to be in the "club" was permanently set by an early negative experience, that has not been erased by subsequent positive experiences. Negative experiences imprint deeply. Perhaps WAID knows how we can activate some of your alternatives to editing to engage IPs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:18, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Talpedia, there are some difficult-to-change things around editors, but the odds can be changed. Typical numbers (noting that the English Wikipedia's numbers are worse than average) are something like this:
- 10 editors create an account.
- 3 of them manage to make their first edit.
- Only one ever edits again (e.g., on another day, and even that person is unlikely to make 10 edits this year).
- One common story is that if your first contribution gets removed entirely, you shrug your shoulders and say "I guess I'm not good enough" or "I guess Wikipedia doesn't want me". Looking at some editors who appeared in Special:RecentChanges about two hours ago, about a third of the contributions will get reverted within minutes. In my small sample (n=10), I found three already-reverted edits (including an edit war over Functional medicine that may indicate that there are multiple separate things that use the same name, or that we've got a WP:YESPOV failure), an under-sourced but (I think) accurate update to an anatomy article, someone adding a ref, and the rest where either uncontroversial edits (e.g., adding missing punctuation) or likely to survive (e.g., updating a sports table). But if you look at our three new editors and think "one gets reverted instantly, one gets reverted eventually, and one survives", then you might have approximately the right feel.
- Our response to newcomers overall is poor. This isn't always because someone's being mean to the newbie; it can also mean that we're throwing people in the deep end and then needing to send lifeguards after them. Rational people might give up on swimming when their first experience produces all harms and no benefits.
- On the gender question, our overall-poor response has a disproportionately discouraging effect on women and on Asian and African people. There are different cultural ideas about what it means when I treat a stranger and a newcomer like "that". If you're, ay, a stereotypical American netizen, then personal conflict can be an engaging source of entertainment and an opportunity to win. If, on the other hand, you're a native Japanese person, you would have a very different reaction. It's hard for the first group to interact in ways that encourage the second group to continue editing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:30, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: I just saw this! https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Schizophrenia&type=revision&diff=997891092&oldid=997845457&diffmode=source Talpedia (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- OK, no sig on the post above, but I'll bite-- what's wrong with that edit? Rollback was not used, there is an edit summary, and best I can tell, it's correct. What am I missing? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:47, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia: I think its just that that edit and the previously linked comic both dealt with the terminology of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, correcting the phrasing "Nobel Prize for Economics". TompaDompa (talk) 14:50, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- OK, no sig on the post above, but I'll bite-- what's wrong with that edit? Rollback was not used, there is an edit summary, and best I can tell, it's correct. What am I missing? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:47, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- @WhatamIdoing: I just saw this! https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Schizophrenia&type=revision&diff=997891092&oldid=997845457&diffmode=source Talpedia (talk) 15:52, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- Talpedia, there are some difficult-to-change things around editors, but the odds can be changed. Typical numbers (noting that the English Wikipedia's numbers are worse than average) are something like this:
- Interesting thoughts. As to first conflict --> mindset, I know that as a recently established and productive editor, I had such a horrific experience with an admin cabal that I wrote off adminship permanently, and still abhor the idea, in spite of now knowing scores of very decent admins, and in spite of those who attacked me being sanctioned. My mindset against ever wanting to be in the "club" was permanently set by an early negative experience, that has not been erased by subsequent positive experiences. Negative experiences imprint deeply. Perhaps WAID knows how we can activate some of your alternatives to editing to engage IPs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:18, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Two points. I wonder whether there is a "vicious cycle" that pushes editors into not being good editors (e.g. the first conflict => conflict mindset => escalation. I guess looking at case studies would be useful) - they alternative is to assume that there is some very difficult to change property of editors that don't stick around. I wonder whether there is an alternative to editing (such as reviewing pages / suggesting sources / reviewing / wikignoming / linking) that could somehow relax the learning / conflict curve and give people the time to both have some good experiences before their first conflict and osmose some culture early on. Talpedia (talk) 21:04, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
By the way, speaking of promising newish editors, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Ideas that would require broader community consensus and I don't have time to flesh out or even verify if they're possible right now (don't ask how many vaccines I've given in the past week.. please just don't) - if editnotices can be limited to IP/non-autoconfirmed editors, an editnotice on all pages which are in large part subject to MEDRS requirements suggesting people post here for help. A change to the new account screen that would add a section either asking people what topic they're interested in or providing links to wikiprojects (ex: "Interested in medical topics? Go introduce yourself at this page to be introduced to people who can help you get started!" and similar for other major projects). Change the "standard warnings" available in Twinkle/etc to have a "medical" welcome by default if the warning is for a page in a medical category that links here. I agree that the biggest thing is probably getting them before the conflict that inevitably comes with being new forces them away. We won't ever stop people unfamiliar with medical articles just doing the "page patrol" and antivandalism reverting warning levels 1 to 2 to 3 to 4 to reporting to admins... but maybe we can at least make Twinkle or the warnings themselves nudge/push people here so we can try and catch them? Regards -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez (User/say hi!) 02:51, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- I've created Template:Unconfirmed only that displays its contents only to unconfirmed users, so you can implement edit notices that will show all or part of their message just to them. Hope that helps. --RexxS (talk) 14:36, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- @Ozzie10aaaa: I know the snake on a rod is the symbol for medicine... but does it have a secret meaning here... Talpedia (talk) 22:03, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
- Not really (just exactly what you indicated, symbol for medicine)Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 22:09, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Edit warring at COVID-19 vaccine
An editor, Roland Of Yew (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log), is edit-warring to insert content about a vaccine's efficacy into COVID-19 vaccine, based only on press releases and newspaper reports. I'd be very grateful for more eyes on the article, which is not in good shape. Thanks in advance. --RexxS (talk) 18:56, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
- RexxS, thanks for post--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 23:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Just to let you all know; I am unwatching all vaccine and COVID articles. Again. Ping me if needed. I have had severe anaphylactic reactions to both aspirin and penicillin, lucky to be a block from a hospital both times, and have been made severely ill by two different vaccines recently. I just don't need to be reading the kind of crap people are plopping in to those articles, as I am scared enough without reading laypress garbage. I hope "they" will eventually sort out what to do with people like me so that I can get the vaccine under the most safe scenario, but I'll be shaking in fright when I do. Just can't read those pages right now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:10, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Buruli ulcer a Featured article candidate
Buruli ulcer at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Buruli ulcer/archive1. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:07, 27 December 2020 (UTC)
- And now a featured article. Congratulations to Ajpolino, and all who pitched in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:16, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
Psychopathy confusion
Hello, I have recently taken up writing Haltlose personality disorder - and one of the terms that keeps coming up in any discussion on Kraepelin's psychopathies is "Gemütlose", the subtype with the most in similar to Haltlose (which is considered its mirror in that they are the only two of the seven psychopathies to share multiple exclusive traits). Like Haltlose, it is virtually impossible it seems to find it referenced in English-language sources...and as I try to track down its modern definition I'm left blindly fumbling. I'm seeing suggestions online that Reactive attachment disorder is what Bowlby called 'Affectionless Psychopathy', which itself was described by Emil Kraepelin, Kurt Schneider and other as one of the seven forms of psychopathy, "Gemütlos/e/n", but it's not clear that these are the same disorder and not just reusing common German words perhaps in a different context. Anybody able to tell me whether Kraepelin/Schneider/other's findings on the Gemütlosen Psychopathen would belong in the RAD article or elsewhere? I'd rather not start a whole new "Gemütlose psychopathy" article if it is commonly considered by another name these days. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 08:00, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- WP:NONENGLISH sources are acceptable, if they are otherwise good sources. The main problem with that subject is that basically only German psychologists believe that it's 'a thing'. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:48, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- Bingo, Haltlose I can create an article on it because it is listed in the ICD-10 so it is different from Dependent PD, Borderline PD, Antisocial PD, etc which it closely resembles...but Gemütlose is not in the DSM or ICD, so I doubt I'll ever be able to make an article on it...but it seemed like possible RAD was the new name for it (I know nothing about RAD) and yet I couldn't find a source explicitly stating "Gemütlose is now called..." or even "The diagnosis of Gemütlose was abandoned when...". Ideally even if not in its own article, I'd like to clarify that Gemütlose "is now considered a combination of X and Y" or "Z when X is not present" or something...I mean Schneider and Kraepelin are major figures in Psychopathy worldwide (though yes, Haltlose remains largely a European diagnosis limited to Germany, France, Switzerland and some Eastern European universities, and then less-academic acknowledgement of it outside those countries) - it just seems bizarre that Gemütlose alone has simply vanished without an explanation of why. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 21:09, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- Is there an article about Haltlose personality disorder on the German Wikipedia? Just curious. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 19:41, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- No. There are articles at the Dutch, Portuguese, Romanian, and Simple English Wikipedias, but not at the German Wikipedia. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:40, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- Is there an article about Haltlose personality disorder on the German Wikipedia? Just curious. Mark D Worthen PsyD (talk) [he/his/him] 19:41, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
Here is a link to our last discussion on the article. Most editors agreed then that the article needed to be merged (somewhere). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:56, 28 December 2020 (UTC)
- a) No, we discussed at the time, you and one anonymous IP editor felt that way and suggested reducing a heavily sourced, heavily relevant and heavily-linked-to article about a diagnosis that exists in the ICD-10 should be reduced to a passing mention in "some other article somewhere" ignoring the fact it's larger than just about any article into which it could be merged. It has 154 different sources almost entirely drawn from peer-reviewed medical journals, textbooks and other reliable sources. Also, this question is not about Haltlose, I am asking about Gemütlose Psychopathy which is one of Kraepelin's seven types. Please do not misrepresent past discussions, nor drag this one off-course. In case I am at fault for not conveying it clearly, let's talk about Gemütlose - specifically, my question of whether anyone has any ability to find out if it has a modern name, or is strictly historical and abandoned. If coming to this page to ask medical questions just results in "people" calling for my pages to be deleted (without success) I'm liable to stop reaching out for help. That wouldn't be good for anyone. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 01:55, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- It only "exists" in the ICD under the label "Other specific personality disorders", along with examples such as Passive–aggressive personality disorder. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:46, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- a) No, we discussed at the time, you and one anonymous IP editor felt that way and suggested reducing a heavily sourced, heavily relevant and heavily-linked-to article about a diagnosis that exists in the ICD-10 should be reduced to a passing mention in "some other article somewhere" ignoring the fact it's larger than just about any article into which it could be merged. It has 154 different sources almost entirely drawn from peer-reviewed medical journals, textbooks and other reliable sources. Also, this question is not about Haltlose, I am asking about Gemütlose Psychopathy which is one of Kraepelin's seven types. Please do not misrepresent past discussions, nor drag this one off-course. In case I am at fault for not conveying it clearly, let's talk about Gemütlose - specifically, my question of whether anyone has any ability to find out if it has a modern name, or is strictly historical and abandoned. If coming to this page to ask medical questions just results in "people" calling for my pages to be deleted (without success) I'm liable to stop reaching out for help. That wouldn't be good for anyone. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 01:55, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
To put it in perspective, in 1940 The Lancet itself suggested that Adolf Hitler might be a prime example, since "it may seem that to include Hitler among the Gemutlose psychopaths is to question a diagnosis which puts him in another group, the hysterical psychopaths. But all, Koch, Kraepelin, Schneider, Kahn, Henderson and the rest who have written about psycohapthic states have insisted...", etc[1]. So it has notability, but it's just...disappeared? I assume it's just renamed...I need somebody with more familiarity with the subject of psychopathy specifically :\ HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 03:30, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- Did the Lancet say that in 1940, or did a letter-writer say that in the Lancet? — soupvector (talk) 17:59, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fair question, but looks like an article first, and then five issues later a letter with the same title. Regardless, not trying to use it as an RS or anything right now, just asking for help hunting down whatever happened to the idea of Gemutlose Psychopathy, and specifically since its "alt name" is Affectionless Psychopathy, and the "alt name" for RAD these days is Affectionless Psychopathy...are they the same? Or did it get coined as an alt for X, then X was abandoned, then somebody recycled the alt name for Y? Is X Y? Just looking for research help to find the answer, not WP policy on what to do when not knowing such an answer. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 00:35, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Have you tried e-mailing any of the authors on recent papers? I've found some authors to be very willing to answer a question if you tell them you're a volunteer working on a Wikipedia article and want to make sure that you're getting it right. (Other times, I get no response.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- I hadn't, even though I did find a professor currently at University of Cologne who seemed to perhaps have a grasp of it - so that's a great idea, thanks. It'll at least tell me I'm headed in the right direction - I think I've found a source today saying that it was merged into the modern definition of Antisocial personality disorder but I want to make sure about that. It's a fascinating historical subject, similar to Haltlose (still recognized today) or Hysteria, etc. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 19:01, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Have you tried e-mailing any of the authors on recent papers? I've found some authors to be very willing to answer a question if you tell them you're a volunteer working on a Wikipedia article and want to make sure that you're getting it right. (Other times, I get no response.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:10, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Fair question, but looks like an article first, and then five issues later a letter with the same title. Regardless, not trying to use it as an RS or anything right now, just asking for help hunting down whatever happened to the idea of Gemutlose Psychopathy, and specifically since its "alt name" is Affectionless Psychopathy, and the "alt name" for RAD these days is Affectionless Psychopathy...are they the same? Or did it get coined as an alt for X, then X was abandoned, then somebody recycled the alt name for Y? Is X Y? Just looking for research help to find the answer, not WP policy on what to do when not knowing such an answer. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 00:35, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
Alzheimer's disease
Alzheimer's disease is a top-rated medicine article, and consistently among our most viewed articles. It has been six months since I gave notice on the talk page of a Featured article review needed (the article is seriously outdated), yet there has been no interest. Unless someone indicates they have plans to update this important article, I will be submitting it to FAR next week. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:12, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
- On a quick glance, possibly finding a second and perhaps even third reference for the life expectancy listed in the sidebar; it's one of those very central pieces of information on which we don't want to highlight a number lower/higher than other estimates. Should be easy. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 05:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Celmck has agreed to take a look at updating the article. She's very well acquainted with Alzheimer's disease from her day job, but is new to Wikipedia. If anyone else is interested in helping out, feel free to organize at Talk:Alzheimer's disease. Otherwise, if you see Celmck around, say hello and welcome. Ajpolino (talk) 23:00, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Awesome! There is a list on article talk; I'll be there. (Should we make it Jan MCOTW? I see there are no new nominations, on my part at least because of holiday business ... and I see we did nothing on dexamethasone, in my case, because I don't even know where to start on drug articles ... ) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:12, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Wow. First stumbling block. I navigated my way to our list of templates for welcoming new editors, and find not a single one that is appropriate to this instance :( Going to look for a general (non-medical) welcome template next. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:22, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes speaking of stumbling blocks, she tried the Wikipedia Adventure but apparently it kept leaving her at dead ends or the little help box would cover the "submit" button. So we're off to a great start... Anyway, if you don't mind I was hoping we could give the article a couple of weeks while Celmck gets her sea legs and takes a look. If she decides it's not for her, or is ready for some more hands, we can make it a collaboration of the month or proceed with the FAR accordingly? Ajpolino (talk) 17:58, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Well, I wrote my own welcome, and then was dismayed to see her embark on that "adventure", which is not likely to be extremely helpful to someone like her. At some point, we will have to teach her about Diberri and correct citation. I am fine with allowing ALL the time needed; I doubt that anyone else will launch a FAR in the meantime (but I will make sure there is a note on talk to that effect). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Done, [2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:07, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Well, I wrote my own welcome, and then was dismayed to see her embark on that "adventure", which is not likely to be extremely helpful to someone like her. At some point, we will have to teach her about Diberri and correct citation. I am fine with allowing ALL the time needed; I doubt that anyone else will launch a FAR in the meantime (but I will make sure there is a note on talk to that effect). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:03, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Yes speaking of stumbling blocks, she tried the Wikipedia Adventure but apparently it kept leaving her at dead ends or the little help box would cover the "submit" button. So we're off to a great start... Anyway, if you don't mind I was hoping we could give the article a couple of weeks while Celmck gets her sea legs and takes a look. If she decides it's not for her, or is ready for some more hands, we can make it a collaboration of the month or proceed with the FAR accordingly? Ajpolino (talk) 17:58, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Wow. First stumbling block. I navigated my way to our list of templates for welcoming new editors, and find not a single one that is appropriate to this instance :( Going to look for a general (non-medical) welcome template next. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:22, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Awesome! There is a list on article talk; I'll be there. (Should we make it Jan MCOTW? I see there are no new nominations, on my part at least because of holiday business ... and I see we did nothing on dexamethasone, in my case, because I don't even know where to start on drug articles ... ) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:12, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Celmck has agreed to take a look at updating the article. She's very well acquainted with Alzheimer's disease from her day job, but is new to Wikipedia. If anyone else is interested in helping out, feel free to organize at Talk:Alzheimer's disease. Otherwise, if you see Celmck around, say hello and welcome. Ajpolino (talk) 23:00, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- On a quick glance, possibly finding a second and perhaps even third reference for the life expectancy listed in the sidebar; it's one of those very central pieces of information on which we don't want to highlight a number lower/higher than other estimates. Should be easy. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 05:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
African humid period/sickle cell disease take 2
A while back I asked if this publication justifies mentioning sickle cell disease on African humid period, given that it is not a WP:MEDRS-compliant review. Since then it looks like it's been picked up by other sources, including this review article. Is that indicative enough to discuss a mention? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:37, 30 December 2020 (UTC)
- Nothing? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 19:24, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
Fringe?
Would an article about a physician who promotes fringe medical theories fall within the scope of WP:MED? And also, would a separate section concerning such theories be necessary on that page. I'm specifically looking at Steven Hotze. Bait30 Talk 2 me pls? 02:59, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- In general, people here are interested in any WP:Biomedical information that appears on Wikipedia, but some fringe stuff can be dealt with entirely at WP:FT/N - and if possible, should be, since editors here are bursting at the seams dealing with COVID-19 content, so it would be bad to have unnecessary distractions here about energy healing, coffee enemas, etc. For the article you mention, I don't think there are any medical claims which require specialist input -- you don't need medical expertise to tell you that no, COVID-19 is not an invention of the "deep state". Alexbrn (talk) 03:07, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Chinese research on COVID in China
Interesting article from AP
- Kang D, Cheng M, McNeil S (30 December 2020). "China clamps down in hidden hunt for coronavirus origins". AP.
which says that all COVID-related Chinese research benefits from the "guidance" of a govt. committee through which it must be cleared prior to publication. Not sure how this might affect our content. I note in Timeline of the COVID-19 pandemic in 2019 we cite PMID 32973152, with 2 (of 3) Chinese academic authors, for saying that it seems the virus did not originate in China after all ... Alexbrn (talk) 15:59, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- As reliable as Chinese sources about woo then, and we should treat them as such. -Roxy the inedible dog . wooF 16:19, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- I think that might be an overreaction, Roxy. It would be appropriate to use WP:INTEXT attribution in such a situation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:06, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
Update tag on Huntingtons
Not sure why, but figured I'd drop a note in here as a reminder that Huntington's disease has had an {{update}} tag on it since March. Folks want to make any adjustments necessary? HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 18:54, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks for this note. Since there are tens of thousands of articles, there are usually hundreds that are tagged as needing an update. Here's the current list, if anyone wants to look for a favorite subject. Some of these are general requests, some are inline (⌘F for the word 'update'), and some requests are themselves outdated (in which case, please remove the tags). Everyone is welcome to help out – even small efforts can make a big difference. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:29, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
A link to a DAB page
I said I'd be back next year, but I didn't expect it to be this early...
I'm bringing in Douhua#Nutritive values and health benefits because (1) it contains a link to a DAB page and (2) the whole section set off my rudimentary WP:MEDRS alarm. Narky Blert (talk) 10:43, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
- I've done the dablink as that was straightforward. And I agree with your MEDRS concerns. I feel that we probably shouldn't keep that section on the strength of that one source, if at all. Dr. Vogel (talk) 12:32, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
- I've removed the section. While soy is a generally healthy food, it's unlikely that any of them are specific to this particular tofu dish. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:39, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
- Perhaps I should have said, my alimentary WP:MEDRS alarm. Narky Blert (talk) 19:20, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
- I've removed the section. While soy is a generally healthy food, it's unlikely that any of them are specific to this particular tofu dish. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:39, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Please Textor Alector (talk) 09:35, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- Textor Alector, has the copyright violation been resolved? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:10, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- It looks like a decent article to me, was kept after an AfD, but for some reason gets rapidly declined again and again based simply on en.wiki users not AGFing or recognizing that Nigerian English is not quite the same as American English. It's what I would say should be published on WP without problem, and people will quickly work to bring it in line with standards. It's a shame the editors have had to struggle against an unforgiving current this long. Do I know WHY every Nigerian in the world will always explain "I live in Lagos which is one of the eight largest cities, the other 7 cities are..."? No, I definitely do not, maybe it's just their regional variation on a subconscious torilla tavataan, but that's just how they speak. Will go help. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 22:38, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks for helping out with that. Wikipedia's history indicates that we can additionally be suspicious of sexism (the average organization open to anyone gets less scrutiny than the average organization for women), but most of this is probably just that we hate "spam and self-promotion", aka all articles about any businesses and organizations that we haven't personally heard about, especially if the article contents aren't primarily about scandals and lawsuits (because neutral content is "promotional"). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:46, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
I would appreciate it if someone could look at the page to check that what I wrote looks good. Thank you. Adamreinman (talk) 18:24, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- Adamreinman, why are you using the AFC process at all? WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:29, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- Article doesn't look like an ad or written informally ill-befitting an encyclopedia, not sure I can spot what's wrong at a glance or why it would be declined as a Draft; the "This User Would Like to be an Administrator" who rejected both this article and the one above is now officially raising my eyebrows ^.^ Anyways, at most I would be concerned we might have WP:UNDUE on the recalls/criticism so would suggest adding some positive details about the company so our article doesn't affect public confidence in their company. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 23:24, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
- The first draft didn't have the lawsuits, and was rejected because all normal content about businesses is obviously self-promotional. Then he added the lawsuits, and got accused of being an undisclosed paid editor and not knowing what he's talking about. The unsubstantiated claims about being a paid editor were denied and then removed from the page.[3] This is not really one of Wikipedia's finest moments.
- This is a very difficult area to work in. WP:AFC reviews are really just one editor's personal opinion. We praise and reward people for declining articles (even if they're wrongly declined), and we punish them for approving 'bad' articles (with an ever-higher standard for what's good enough, so the article you approve as good enough in January might well be the sort of thing that you're declining as too poor by December of that year). This old thread at User talk:Iridescent/Archive 31#Notification about notification summarizes the problem fairly well; look for the 'parable' that says "The volunteers became increasingly worried about the risk of being the one that let something inappropriate through, and more and more legitimate profiles started to be rejected." WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:58, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
- Article doesn't look like an ad or written informally ill-befitting an encyclopedia, not sure I can spot what's wrong at a glance or why it would be declined as a Draft; the "This User Would Like to be an Administrator" who rejected both this article and the one above is now officially raising my eyebrows ^.^ Anyways, at most I would be concerned we might have WP:UNDUE on the recalls/criticism so would suggest adding some positive details about the company so our article doesn't affect public confidence in their company. HaltlosePersonalityDisorder (talk) 23:24, 3 January 2021 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing Thank you very much for your detailed description and analysis. This article has been much harder than I expected. But, I am learning a lot in the process. Do you think I can submit it for publicaiton now? Or, should I wait until there are more third party publications about the company? Adamreinman (talk) 19:03, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
- It's already "published"; the public has access to it. If you mean whether you should continue trying to get a volunteer at Wikipedia:Articles for creation to approve its move to the mainspace, I don't know. Why are you using AFC at all? You've made more than a thousand edits over the last seven years. You don't actually need their approval. AFC is only necessary for people who have brand-new accounts with fewer than 10 edits. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:15, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- In the spirit of BEBOLD and BREAKALLRULES I just went ahead and just created it at Penumbra (company) - we'll see what happens, it looks at least as good as the average new creation if not better. Shouldn't be complaints :) All credit is to Adam. HLPD (talk) 04:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- HaltlosePersonalityDisorder just a note, please use the move function to move pages instead of copying and pasting the article content - the latter removes attribution to the page creator and anyone else who might have edited the page, which is required for copyright reasons. I've requested a history merge to fix this. Spicy (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- @HaltlosePersonalityDisorder and Spicy: I've done a history merge. Please check that the current article is what you wanted (categories, etc.). Feel free to ping me if you need further assistance. --RexxS (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks Rexx, I don't see a move function on my sidebar or anything - but I'll keep it in mind for the future so I don't repeat the error - glad there is a system in place for it. HLPD (talk) 19:33, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- HLPD, assuming that you're on the desktop site, the page move feature is often hidden in the
More ⌄
menu, which is between the watchlist star and the search box. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:31, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- HLPD, assuming that you're on the desktop site, the page move feature is often hidden in the
- I see I am late to the party, but I was going to suggest Penumbra (medical company) instead, because there is a notable Penumbra theatre. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:43, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- It sounds like Penumbra (disambiguation) needs an update. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- @SandyGeorgia and WhatamIdoing: thanks for spotting that. I agree 100% and I've moved the new article to Penumbra (medical company), I've also updated the dab page and fixed the redirects. Penumbra (company) now points to the dab page. Hope that's okay, but please let me know if I need to fix any of it. --RexxS (talk) 21:52, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- It sounds like Penumbra (disambiguation) needs an update. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:28, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- Thanks Rexx, I don't see a move function on my sidebar or anything - but I'll keep it in mind for the future so I don't repeat the error - glad there is a system in place for it. HLPD (talk) 19:33, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- @HaltlosePersonalityDisorder and Spicy: I've done a history merge. Please check that the current article is what you wanted (categories, etc.). Feel free to ping me if you need further assistance. --RexxS (talk) 19:07, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- HaltlosePersonalityDisorder just a note, please use the move function to move pages instead of copying and pasting the article content - the latter removes attribution to the page creator and anyone else who might have edited the page, which is required for copyright reasons. I've requested a history merge to fix this. Spicy (talk) 17:57, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
- In the spirit of BEBOLD and BREAKALLRULES I just went ahead and just created it at Penumbra (company) - we'll see what happens, it looks at least as good as the average new creation if not better. Shouldn't be complaints :) All credit is to Adam. HLPD (talk) 04:02, 8 January 2021 (UTC)
MOS:MED edits to consider
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Medicine-related articles#Edits to consider & discuss. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:05, 4 January 2021 (UTC)
WP:MEDRS check at Hematocele
I removed a bunch of information sourced to predatory publishers at [4]. Some of it could be sourced back I'm sure. There remain much content sourced to cases studies in there too. Passing the ball to this project, because I can't do anything here except flag the issues.
Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:40, 5 January 2021 (UTC)
Popular pages
Hello. In https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Medicine/Popular_pages, the link to "Top 5,000 most viewed medical articles in a given week including mobile and desktop" refers to a nonactive list. Is there a way to get more than the top 1000 popular pages, as I need a more extensive list for academic purposes? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LProlog (talk • contribs) 03:03, 9 January 2021 (UTC)
- That depends upon how technical you are. The code for User:Community Tech bot is on Github and linked on the bot's page, and doing it yourself is always the fastest and best way to get what you want. If you don't have any idea what Github is, then you might try:
- seeing whether you can get what you want out of https://pageviews.toolforge.org/massviews/
- contacting User:West.andrew.g (who did the 5,000-page-long list in the past), or
- asking User:MusikAnimal (WMF) whether he could point you in the right direction.
- I recommend that you look at the list and see whether its contents are what you actually want. You might want to exclude all of the people, businesses, laws, etc., that are (or should be) in Category:Society and medicine task force articles and its subcats or any similar categories (e.g., Category:Science and academia work group articles). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:18, 9 January 2021 (UTC)