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:::: Strawman links seem to be your Pavlovian shorthand for 'I haven't got an adequate argument to reply to you'. You're quite entitled to a personal opinion, as is Ynhockey. But it is irrational, and an abuse to apply one strict reading of [[WP:RS]] to elide 'pro-Palestinian' sources, while doing nothing to extend the same strict interpretation to 'pro-Israeli' sources, as you do customarily. That is gaming the system. Note that there is no answer from either of you to the inconsistency pointed out. Laqueur is not a qualified historian: he writes historical books. Chomsky is not a qualified historian, he writes historical books. You are both profoundly inconsistent, and should reflect on this. I would be happy if the strict criterion both you and Ynhockey promote, were policy. I happen to approve of much of Ynhockey's work, but if this strict reading is not extended to the huge amount of sourcing not derived from professional scholars used by 'pro-Israeli' editors as well in the future, then a grave inconsistency in judgement will become apparent. I trust he will take care to maintain consistency in the matter.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 10:05, 2 November 2008 (UTC) |
:::: Strawman links seem to be your Pavlovian shorthand for 'I haven't got an adequate argument to reply to you'. You're quite entitled to a personal opinion, as is Ynhockey. But it is irrational, and an abuse to apply one strict reading of [[WP:RS]] to elide 'pro-Palestinian' sources, while doing nothing to extend the same strict interpretation to 'pro-Israeli' sources, as you do customarily. That is gaming the system. Note that there is no answer from either of you to the inconsistency pointed out. Laqueur is not a qualified historian: he writes historical books. Chomsky is not a qualified historian, he writes historical books. You are both profoundly inconsistent, and should reflect on this. I would be happy if the strict criterion both you and Ynhockey promote, were policy. I happen to approve of much of Ynhockey's work, but if this strict reading is not extended to the huge amount of sourcing not derived from professional scholars used by 'pro-Israeli' editors as well in the future, then a grave inconsistency in judgement will become apparent. I trust he will take care to maintain consistency in the matter.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 10:05, 2 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::I can't see how you worked out the last point. Most historians in this field are anti-Israel, and neither of us has worked to remove their content. I think the best example is Khalidi, who constantly attacks Israel and writes only about the bad things Israel and Israelis have done. Even so, he's an historian, and Chomsky, Dershowitz, Davis and Jiryis are not. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 18:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC) |
:::::I can't see how you worked out the last point. Most historians in this field are anti-Israel, and neither of us has worked to remove their content. I think the best example is Khalidi, who constantly attacks Israel and writes only about the bad things Israel and Israelis have done. Even so, he's an historian, and Chomsky, Dershowitz, Davis and Jiryis are not. -- [[User:Ynhockey|Ynhockey]] <sup>([[User talk:Ynhockey|Talk]])</sup> 18:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC) |
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:::::Nishidan, please try to focus on the points under discussion, rather than other editors, or on [[straw man]] statements unrelated to reality. The reason why contentious historical claims by non-historians are excluded is because they are non-historians, not because they are anti-Israeli. In addition to the many books of history he has written, Laqueur was Director of the Institute of Contemporary History and the [[Wiener Library]] in [[London]] for 30 years, and has been a visiting professor of history and government at [[Harvard]], [[University of Chicago]], [[Tel Aviv]] and [[Johns Hopkins University]]. Chomsky, like Dershowitz, writes polemical works about historical situations; that is not being a historian. [[User:Jayjg|Jayjg ]]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">[[User_talk:Jayjg|(talk)]]</font></small></sup> 22:03, 2 November 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:03, 2 November 2008
See also: Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Community lounge
Talk Page Guidelines
Here are guidelines for this page. (These guidelines may be discussed below.)
- Please stay on topic. Our topic here is to discuss how to edit the WikiProject page and, concomitantly, the project's objectives and activities.
- For general discussion of Israeli-Palestinian issues and how to edit them, you might check out the more free-ranging discussion of our Community Lounge. Long comments and off-topic sections may be refactored there as needed. You can also make a brief statement (e.g., 3-5 lines) in the members section, below.
- Please observe WP expectations, including Talk guidelines. Let's try to be civil and avoid personal attacks as we figure out how to collaborate together! Do not use page as a soapbox.
- Archiving: Discussion sections should be marked Done, Resolved or otherwise closed by moderators. After a reasonably short time, such sections will be archived (the heading might be left in somewhat longer as FYI). Agreements and successes can be recorded under #Mild accomplishments.
- Our discussions are moderated. Personal attacks (and excessive incivility) will be deleted. Moderators can mark any off-topic conversation or soapboxing for deletion, or to move to Community Lounge. Progress can be marked as Done or Resolved, etc.
January - February 2008 |
Background
This page comes out of suggestions made at an ArbCom workshop. The initial work is borrowed shamelessly from Wikipedia:WikiProject Sri Lanka Reconciliation. Folks are welcome to edit this extensively (or to delete, if it does not become active). Thanks. HG | Talk 13:39, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Member statements
Here is a section to say something about yourself and your interest in working collaboratively in the I-P topic area. Examples may be seen from the Sri Lanka effort. Currently, there are no specific criteria and all are welcome to join. Perhaps certain criteria are implicit; for example, that members engage in deliberately civil conversation, follow Talk and editing etiquette, and only make big changes to this WikiProject after discussion here. Thanks. HG | Talk 17:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- It might help if people articulated their role(s)/goals with the topic or WikiProject. For instance, you might say if you're available to mediate, or uninvolved admin to enforce policies, or an active editor w/an identifiable point-of-view. Ideally, the project could call upon some "good cop/bad cop" teams when heated disputes arise at an article. Thanks. HG | Talk 20:26, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, this project is a wonderful idea! Come to me for help with images (cropping, rotation, restoration) - I'd be glad to help prepare photographs for featured picture candidacy, particularly historic material. Also glad to help with dispute resolution. Regards, DurovaCharge! 21:08, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
- PalestineRemembered I sometimes regret wearing my apparent sympathies so openly, at other times it's been useful. Think of me a bit like Emily Hobhouse, having absolutely no dog in this race (as she had none in the Boer War), other than the interest we all share in "peace'n'justice". And the accuracy of the historical record - I have a particular objection to hate-sources. (More on that elsewhere) I have never concealed or attempted to conceal anything that might be "disreputable" to the Palestinian "cause", nor ever (that I'm aware of) used anything doubtful about Israel. This "I-P conflict" is well documented in good sources, so even when there is reasonable room for two different scripts, it should not be difficult to write both up properly/fairly. I look forwards to my first invitation to "write for the enemy", and the first acceptance of an invitation from me to do so. PRtalk 12:56, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
- As an introduction, I should say that I spent three months touring around Wikipedia before I dared show my face and self-graduate to newbie status; I should also say that my POV-powered vehicle is heavily loaded with a very long (literally geologic) sense of history and historical perspective; I believe that perspective, and others also, can be called truly encyclopedic. IPCOLL is the first wiki-anything I have joined. I too believe that the difficult issues should be tackled first; it is synonymous to the Oslo accords and leaving the ‘final status’ issues for later evolutionary work. ... Shalom, Salaam, Peace. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 07:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
- Hello! I'm a pretty uninvolved editor in I-P and other Middle East articles (until I discover something I just have to edit ;). I'm over at medcab, and that's my main role at the moment, and it's there I come across Israeli-Palestinian related discussion. I'm happy to see an Israeli-Palestinian Collaboration project, and am hopeful that it will help and do good things for the future :) I suppose there isn't much for me to say. Here's a nice quote I heard once, though: "seek context; flee abstraction". Words to live by, imo :) Xavexgoem (talk) 19:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
- (These comments by Leifern would be a fine statement, if he joins!) On principle, I support any kind of initiative that leads to 1) better adherence to NPOV, 2) more informative articles, and 3) better written articles. I have no reason to doubt the intent of those who are initiating this Wikiproject and would encourage them to continue. But I think I'd be doing them and the other well-meaning editors a disservice if I didn't express my reservations candidly. My biggest fear is that this becomes an alibi, a safe haven, for POV-pushers. I can all too easily imagine a scenario where an editor comes running her with an edit dispute, finds other editors sympathetic to his/her point of view, and then uses their support as a basis for claiming "consensus." There are too many editors on this particular issue who claim to be absolutely neutral, but are anything but neutral, whether they realize this or not. (Moved w/permission. HG | Talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:23, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, I'm an uninvolved admin who's here to help out as needed. I'm currently a member of the ArbCom-created Working group on ethnic and cultural edit wars, and creator/moderator of the dispute board for Hungarian-Slovakian issues. I'm also currently updating various dispute resolution processes around Wikipedia, and am paying close attention to longrunning disputes to see how we can improve our procedures and/or enforcement. I've been a professional online community manager for over 15 years, long before I was involved with Wikipedia, and my own "style" tends to be a bit more on the enforcement side, but I also do a great deal of mediating and mentoring. If I can be of assistance, let me know! :) --Elonka 22:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
- Hello all, I'm an Israeli who trusts my fellow Israelis to bring in all the relevant Israeli positions; my job is to balance it out with some Palestinian history and to try to make as much room for Palestinian claims as there is for Israeli ones. I believe strongly that wikipedia entries should not look like guide-book entries, but should deal with the vital, hitherto too-contentious 'details' that comprise the 'stuff' of the conflict and yet are so often ommitted from the standard encyclopedia entry. My background: medieval Islamic history; European Zionist history; Palestinian unions; Negev Bedouin history; current development projects in Israel.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:20, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
- I am a Palestinian and a Zionist, and a firm believer in this quote from the Sri Lankan Reconciliation Project "Any one who wants to join this agrees that they believe in the goals of this organization. I.E any contentious issues that cannot be resolved by sticking to wiki rules will be resolved by discussing here". I am an Orthodox Jewish Rabbi, my family came to live in Palestine in the mid 1500s, and my heart is in Jerusalem (both sides). Phil Burnstein (talk) 16:49, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
An idea worth trying?
(Crossposting)
Hi, here's a thought that might do some good with the Israeli-Palesinian dispute on AE. Today I was chatting with an editor from Serbia. Mentioned the Serbian-Croatian ethnic disputes on en:Wiki and he surprised me by telling me the Serbian and Croatian Wikipedias actually get along pretty well. Basically what happened was some guys packed into a car, drove to Zagreb, and shook some hands. Then some other guys packed into another car, drove to Belgrade, and shook some hands. Once they saw that they were all pretty normal people, things calmed down a lot.
Maybe there's a way we can replicate that. Would you be willing to try a voice chat on Skype? I've noticed that when Wikipedia editors get into a conference call, with voices instead of just text, it's easier to find common ground. Wishing you well, DurovaCharge! 06:33, 29 April 2008 (UTC)
- I am very open to the idea and find it very interesting. I congratulate the Serbian and Croatian Wikipedians for such a big step - though it took only a few steps. I am thinking of proposing it at Wikipedia:IPCOLL and Wikipedia:SLR as well. -- FayssalF - Wiki me up® 06:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Jerusalem as the capital of Israel
For further discussion, see our subpage about Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. Thanks. HG | Talk 13:41, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
FYI, RSs?
I stumbled upon these, while looking for something and then spent more time trying to improve my general knowledge of that time period. I thought I'd make them available for your perusal. I couldn't find the source on a Wiki search, as having been used/found, but I don't know how to search Wiki too well. They look pretty RS to me. [1],[2], [3],[4],[5],[6] and, [7]. I found them enlightening and interesting, but didn't look at all of them completely. I tend to feel that they can be helpful for many articles within our sphere. Regards, CasualObserver'48 (talk) 15:06, 14 May 2008 (UTC) Thread ready to archive, thanks! HG | Talk 04:51, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Setting a precedent for protecting commonly vandalized historical facts?
As we all know, sourced material on certain topics is continually deleted. Any ideas about how to protect certain content over time - i.e. regarding the documented killing/expulsion, of innocent Jews and Arabs? Often these deletions are not so different from editing an entry on slavery so that it says the black people were not enslaved, they jumped on the boat and headed for the New World. In other articles such deletions are more clearly understood as vandalism; Yet in the case of I-P articles, often deletions have been allowed to continue without censure, and those who revert such deletions (i.e. those constituting vandalism as they remove sourced facts without explanation) have at times been banned, or had to waste time disputing threatened bans, themselves. I should add again that all of the following refer to facts that were properly cited, and their citations were ignored when the facts were distorted or deleted.
- Information on expulsions and massacres during 1948 has been regularly deleted from entries such as Jerusalem, often by the same people. In one recent example, mention of the expulsion of Liftaa transformed into something like "the residents of Liftaa moved".
- At Battle of Jenin some editors repeatedly edit the entry to read that all or most of those killed at Jenin were combatants, or that none were civilians. Bt'selem and Human Rights Watch stats say that just over half were combatants, and the rest civilians. This data has been repeatedly deleted, reverted, etc. To back up their claim, some editors continually assert that all those civilians killed were voluntary human shields. However, they have produced no evidence to this effect. The IDf has tried to prove that all those killed were combatants, but has been unable to do so in 14 cases.
- Just now, at Haifa, we saw an editor distort this well-cited information: "...Palestinians from Haifa left partially as a result of a combination of a campaign of threats from the Zionist leadership and encouragement by Arab leaders in the region to leave, but mostly were forced out by the shelling of Arab villages and neighborhoods by Jewish soldiers.[5][6]" She altered the sentence so that the source argued that shelling was just one factor among several, as opposed to the main cause of flight. This was simply untrue, yet a very common type of edit and a form of tolerated vandalism.
- Again, I know none of this is new to you, but wanted to list this here for the record just as a set of examples of the many such incidences we have all witnessed. These same essential 'disputes,' in some form or another, have been ongoing. In these cases, no consensus seems to have been reached, or, when 2/3 majority has been, one or two of the same editors seem to start the process again a month later. It's very hard to track such trends, monitor the specific editors, however. (Who has time to go around trying to get people banned?) I have not noticed deletions of terrorist acts against Israelis, although archiving repeated incidences of such deletions here would make sense. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:41, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
- some of the examples you cite do not sound like such negative editing trends to me. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Please explain? (Perhaps on my talk-page if you think it will get too detailed here.)LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 19:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) Well, I think I'll let the discussions proceed, here and at the article talk pages, without me at this current point. However, I do appreciate you mentioning these items here. I am open to staying informed and aware of this. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- By the way, one point, for general reference...if you want our help, the way to do so is to ask for our help on specific items, one at a time... in other words, not to take a whole mishmash of items which have no common thread, except that they are all opposed to the Israeli viewpoint, and then disingenuously ask for help in the form of "how to prevent deletions," or how to protect "certain" content over time, etc (as stated above). sorry, but I do need to point this out, just to cast some light on this issue for the future. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 20:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- I take your point as far as focusing on one issue at a time. Thanks for this single constructive comment, however, I ask that you assume good faith (i.e. not use words such as "disingenuous"). It may seem naive of me, but I honestly see the above as facts that have been deleted repeatedly or distorted. To me these deletions seem like ongoing vandalism, and I honestly would like to brainstorm how to protect ALL key historical facts from continual omission/eradication. Perhaps this is unrealistic of me/trying to jump in the deep end of the pool too fast. But I think it's best to be transparent and tackle differences of opinion/approach to key questions such as this, head on. Best, LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 00:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) Well, I think I'll let the discussions proceed, here and at the article talk pages, without me at this current point. However, I do appreciate you mentioning these items here. I am open to staying informed and aware of this. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 19:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- I appreciate your open and helpful reply. sorry for any over-opinionating on my part. if you want to get any input or help on some ways to work through some of these issues individually, I'm sure we'd be happy to try.--Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:06, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, in wikipedia, one must be eternally vigilant and willing to revert such vandalisms. I've had a few heated battles myself, but only once very obliquely threatened with banning (and by a POV administrator). I am wondering if that is the problem that we need a process to address, if it is biggest barrier to correcting facts?? Carol Moore 01:17, 17 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
- I'm not sure how prevalent banning in such cases is, or how much it creates an atmosphere of self-censorship. However if people are interested, this could be an excellent place to try to keep track of and centralize discussion of such trends. It could be interesting to create a ban-log here, or link to a new page on the subject (if one does not already exist) in which those penalized for revert-wars over overt vandalism of sourced facts, or having to combat threats of banning, can log the main issue in a sentence. Feedback?LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 01:26, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- As far as protecting sourced content, I have a suggestion of huge dimensions, which I am sure is very far from being realized: One way to deal with the issue could be to create a separate log of well-sourced historical facts that have been the subject of repeated vandalism (i.e. more than three deletions or distortions). when combating such vandalism, editors could refer to given fact and citation in this "log of protected data" (or whatever we might want to call it). I hope this suggestion does not sound horribly naive to people. If do-able it could be highly relevant to other issue-areas.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 01:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Older thread for archiving. Thanks. HG | Talk 04:52, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Draft of proposed IPCOLL Page with Chart of Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard Past Discussions
Done Thanks for getting things started with /Links to Reliable Sources Discussions ....LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 03:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- I just did an update to the page Wikipedia:WikiProject_Israel_Palestine_Collaboration/Links_to_reliable_sources_discussions and wanted to remind people it was a resource and feel free to insert it in any articles.
- Also in doing so I chanced upon Wikipedia:WikiProject Philosophy/Anarchism/Reliable source guidelines which actually list and opines on frequently used controversial sources. I don't have the energy to do something like that, but just thought I'd mention it in case others think it's a good idea and want to work on - and importantly promote - it. Carol Moore 03:25, 18 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Proposed deletions -- notification
I tried to edit the article on Shmuel Yerushalmi, an anti-Zionist poet and activist in Israel, to add details about his arrest and interrogation yesterday over the content of one of his poems; I was surprised to discover that the article had been deleted earlier yesterday. Apparently there had been a deletion review, which ran for five days and attracted just five contributors. An earlier proposed deletion, which had not reached a consensus, ran for twelve days and attracted more than 30 contributors. The proposal had been notified on the list of Israel-related deletion discussions, but not on the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions, where the article also has relevance. Could we establish some sort of procedure for cross-notification of any such proposals, to ensure that more possibly-interested editors are aware and can take part in discussions? RolandR (talk) 20:45, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- I think you can simply post it here, if you wish. does that sound good? --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 20:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Your best bet is to watch Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Israel and Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Palestine. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 21:03, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Shmuel Yerushalmi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) - I know nothing of Shmuel Yerushalmi, but if he is currently generating media attention then he may now be notable, and thus merit an article. You can possibly restart the article if notability was the main reason for deletion. See WP:NOTE. See the history link in the linkbar. One can get an article linkbar with wikicode like this: {{article|Shmuel Yerushalmi}} - The talk page will show up via the history link with this linkbar: {{article|Talk:Shmuel Yerushalmi}} Talk:Shmuel Yerushalmi (edit | [[Talk:Talk:Shmuel Yerushalmi|talk]] | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). Sometimes these linkbars will pull up a working history page. It looks like this is not true in this case. Maybe because this is a biography page. I don't know. See Category:Wikipedia administrators who will provide copies of deleted articles. Here are the deletion review pages:
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shmuel Yerushalmi
- Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Shmuel Yerushalmi (2nd nomination)
- It looks like notability was the reason for deletion. The last discussion comment was on July 17, 2008. Google has the Wikipedia articles cached, but probably not for long. You might want to save the pages for the time when he becomes notable enough to merit a Wikipedia article. The Simple Wikipedia, and regular Wikipedia articles are slightly different. See:
- http://www.google.com/search?q=Shmuel+Yerushalmi --Timeshifter (talk) 17:55, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Negev Bedouins and Unrecognized villages
I would like to draw your attention to proposed deletion of the entry Unrecognized villages, which refers to the status of 80,000 Arab citizens of Israel in the Negev. See the talk page, where I had been discussing NPOV issues with User:Ynhockey until the label was pinned yesterday.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:19, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
I have just noticed that User:Guy0307 has also proposed deletion of Negev Bedouins, which refers to the 160,000 Bedouin in the Negev, for the same reason. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 20:37, 22 July 2008 (UTC) This older thread can be archived, thanks. HG | Talk 04:53, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
Dreams, hopes and vision
I envision a space in which Israelis are never demonized, but are held accountable, and Palestinians are never disappeared, and are also held accountable. LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 07:25, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Celebrations of the September 11, 2001 attacks
There is an RFC going on at Talk:Reactions to the September 11, 2001 attacks#RfC: Redirect to what? ← Michael Safyan (talk) 06:23, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
Logo for WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration?
السلام-שלום | This user participates in WP:IPCOLL. |
I found this one somewhere and wondering if there is one for the page itself to get out and about? (Including for Wikipedia:WikiProject_Israel_Palestine_Collaboration/Links_to_reliable_sources_discussions which I'm finishing off as we speak. Also will preview and "advert" here that people can put on talk or user pages.) Carol Moore 15:03, 29 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
- I wrote the first paragraph so it can be used as an advertisement with a note encouraging people to do so, per below:
- WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Links to reliable sources discussions provides Links to Specific Source Discussions and Links to General Issues Discussions of reliable sources that have been or could be relevant to Israel-Palestine issues. These discussions have been conducted over the last few years, mostly on Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard and been archived there. Current discussions will not be linked here until archived there. Other Reliable Source Discussions such as resolutions in mediation or arbitration also may be linked. However, none of these discussions may be the "final word" on a source or an issue about sources, so feel free to open a new section on Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard if you think it is necessary. Information on Wikipedia source policies can be found at WP:Reliable sources and WP:Verifiability.
- Please feel free to circulate this paragraph and its links to talk pages or your user page to alert others to the availability of this resource.
- Carol Moore 16:35, 29 July 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Could I bring this article to people's attention? I seem to be in danger of getting dragged into a fight after being accused of "poisoning the well" and having an edit reverted. Could some people interested in maintaining impartiality have a look, please?--Peter cohen (talk) 23:40, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. Seems quite bizarre. Not sure I comprehend what is going on over there? Some orientation? LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 03:00, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- Very difficult stuff.
- How to deal an article about an association that threatens wikipedia ?
- I think we should not mind that article and keep it the way it is.
- Ceedjee (talk) 05:47, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- Well, my specific issue was over a sentence that said that a report and newspaper articles had described a age as anti-Semitic when the report and one article were written by User:Oboler and the other (in the Jewish media) was based largely on an interview with him. My describign these as Israeli and Jewish sources were claimed to be poisoning the well. But as the report, the most detailed ot these sources says the page is anti-Semitic because it denies the Right to Exist it is hardly an impartial source nd this needed to eb highlighted. I have now deleted the whole sentence.--Peter cohen (talk) 10:10, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- The archiving and "hiding" of the TalkPage is puzzling and confusing to anyone attempting to follow what's going on. Objections were similarly hidden. When the article on the very notable "Jews Against Zionism" has been repeatedly deleted it's difficult to understand why an organisation of such minor importance gets an article. PRtalk 21:13, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- I've now posted to the talk page suggesting pge protection. I've been unable to make sense of one of the replies [8]. Perhaps the editor inquestion is daring people to report them to admin. DO people here think page prot a good idea?--Peter cohen (talk) 19:18, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- I wrote at review page: Keep: As long as there are editors willing to keep on top of it so it does not become a promotional for the guy. And make sure if there is any WP:RS evidence of criminal activity he is put in that category.
- Didn't write that we really need a decent category for pro-Zionist "terrorists" like there is for Category:Islamist_terrorists and others who engage in criminal activity to promote pro-Israel views. Someone created Category:American_Zionist_terrorists and put Irv Rubin in but he was immediately removed. (He's still in American terrorists.) Category:Terrorists by nationality doesn't even have an Israeli terrorist category though it has a Palestinian one. So who wants to do it? :-) Carol Moore 19:52, 23 August 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
- I'm confused, Carol. There doesn't seem to be any indication that "David Appletree" is a criminal, let alone a terrorist. So why all the talk about putting the article in those categories? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:03, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- I shouldn't have merged two different threads. One was reference to possible or potential criminal hacking. And searching around again I did find "Category:Jewish terrorism." Carol Moore 03:16, 24 August 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Hi. It's good that folks post, like Peter above, requests for help in dealing with tensions over an article. However, at this juncture, further discussion of the article content should continue on the article Talk page. Right? Thanks. Meanwhile, I've submitted page protection request at WP:RPP to try to get editors into a more productive discussion. Ah, I see that an editor has been blocked, and discussion seems to be moving along. HG | Talk 04:18, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Volunteer to archive older threads, pls
Hi. Would somebody pls volunteer to archive the threads as marked above? Thanks muchly. HG | Talk 04:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- Excuse me, what's the hurry? This TalkPage is currently 79K bytes. Other TalkPages are much, much bigger, eg Reliable Sources is currently 141K bytes, AN is 313K characters, ANI reached 370K yesterday, it was archived down to 242K - so still 3 times bigger than this! And many of the dicussions above are highly relevant, eg abusive charges of antisemitism (seen inside the project as well as outside), CAMERA hosting an attempt to subvert our processes etc etc. The JIDF situation is current and looks like another attempt to hi-jack. PRtalk 17:15, 27 August 2008 (UTC) ...add links for readers HG | Talk 13:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- For PR and others, let me emphasize that our archiving can be done when our IPCOLL discussion is old, resolved or otherwise unneeded. Of course, people are welcome/expected to keep working on the article and dispute resolution discussions well after this Talk page has helped draw the attention of IPCOLL readers. As moderator, I need to both use my best judgment for archiving and be responsive to objections. Also, if an archived discussion needs to be revisited, please pull it up from the archive, or link to it when starting new Talk section. Thanks for your understanding and support. HG | Talk 13:16, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
Gathering evidence of the scope and trend of editing disputes in the topic area
At the WP:IPCOLL/BATTLE subpage, we have a table that seeks to assess the extent to which the I-P topic area has been contentious. I'm trying to arrange to rebuild at least part of this table by automated queries. So, I would welcome feedback on what kind of data to gather. Here are my initial thoughts.
- Page protection. (a) Which pages are currently protected, by protection type? (b) Which pages have been protected since the ArbCom decision (1-19-08), by type and number of instances? (c) Total number of pages for (a) and (b)?
- XfD. (a) Which pages have been subjected to XfD requests, by type and number of instances? (b) Total number of XfDs
- Moves. (a) Which pages have been moved or subject to requested moves? Please list multiple instances. (b) Totals
- Blocks. (a) List pages that have been associated with 3RR, other blocks, or bans? (b) Total blocks and bans
- Tags. (a) By article and Talk page, list all current tags and warnings such as NPOV template, etc, plus list all those removed since 1-19-08. (b) Total number of tags and warnings, by type.
- Edit intensity. Need suggestions. (a) Rank the article and Talk pages by number of reverts and average number of edits per day. (b) Identify articles that have had high bursts of reverts or editing on single day(s).
- Dispute resolution efforts. (a) List all instances of a page that is subject to ArbCom, MedCab, WQA, RfC, 3PO, and other(?) dispute resolution processes. If possible, it would be helpful to see a list of articles that have been the focus of noticeboard (esp AN/I and WP:AE) disputes.
Please let me know if you have other suggestions for data to gather, or clarifying questions. At this juncture, I do not yet know which queries are realistic. Please note: these are not queries about individual users'. For the data above, I'll be asking for totals since the ArbCom decision and monthly trends, if feasible. Thanks very much, HG | Talk 19:54, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
- Number six is a very good idea. The number of reverts, especially multiple reverts in a row, would be a good indication. Also, you might want to measure how many words have been added to an article's talk page, as that can also be a good indication of the heat of an editing dispute. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 05:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- I see there haven't been any entries in What's Happening on main page since July. Does that mean things have calmed down, people not reporting there in preference to the statistics page, or not reporting at all? Just wondering. Carol Moore 03:32, 18 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
So how would people deal with something like this?
This IP user [9] strikes me as an obvious sock puppet operated by someone on one side of the Istael/Palestine conflict. However, I haven't a clue who is operating it. About 70% of the edits are blatant trouble-making. Even legitimate edits such as [10] are captioned in ways that do not WP:Assume good faith. If I knew who was operating the puppet I could report it to the page. But I don't, so can't. So what to do?--Peter cohen (talk) 13:36, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, this IP has been blocked for vandalism. Contact the blocking admin or AIV if you see further incidents. In general, we should be cautious about allegations of sockpuppetry and appropriate procedures are explained at WP:SUSPSOCK. On the other hand, the vandalism was blatant and can be reported immediately to WP:AIV. When in doubt, you might open a conversation with an admin you know (or WP:AN/I) by giving the diffs, not draw conclusions, and asking folks to take a look. My 2 cents. Thanks muchly, HG | Talk 17:02, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Need article(s) on opposition to the occupation of Palestine
If I had time I'd make up a few articles like these: Protests against the invasion of Iraq, Opposition to the Iraq War and American popular opinion on invasion of Iraq and Popular opposition to the 2003 Iraq war and Worldwide government positions on war on Iraq. Maybe someone else has time and would like to take it on. ;-) Carol Moore 13:44, 7 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
- Excellent contrast with the paucity of dedicated articles concerning protests, opposition, popular opinion, and government positions on the much longer and far more controversial war and occupation of the Palestinian Territories, also called (euphemistically?) the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.
- It fits the pattern I have long pointed out concerning the lack of dedicated Wikipedia articles discussing human rights violations by Israel in the Israeli-occupied territories. See Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration/Archive 3#Human rights in the Israeli-occupied territories and User:Timeshifter#Israeli human rights violations in the Palestinian territories.
- This is an obvious systemic bias of Wikipedia and the Western world. The case has been made about the lack of Western media coverage of the over one million deaths (nearly all are civilians) caused by the war in Iraq, and the lack of coverage of the larger number of civilian Palestinian casualties versus civilian Israeli casualties (I need to update the chart).
- In all these areas Wikipedia should not be reflecting the systemic bias of the Western media, and should make an extra effort to implement WP:NPOV. --Timeshifter (talk) 23:23, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
- People do have to be willing to write, source and defend articles about Palestine and without pay. I'm doing a lot on the broader libertarian quest myself. Carol Moore 00:08, 8 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
- You're simply ignoring Human_rights_in_israel#Human_rights_record_in_the_Occupied_Territories, the ridiculously long Israel and the apartheid analogy, the detailed Israeli West Bank barrier, and many others. This topic is heavily covered, from all sides. This is, in facts, one of the most heavily covered topics on Wikipedia, providing ample space for even fringe claims. Get your facts straight, before making such claims. okedem (talk) 13:49, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Your tone, Okedem, of strong assertion, does not substitute for the truth. It is just assertion, as you have done before in our past discussions. For example; "simply ignoring" and "ridiculously long" and "heavily covered" and "get your facts straight." You did not point to any dedicated articles on human rights violation by Israelis.
- Human rights in Israel#Human rights record in the Occupied Territories, is one section of an article on Israel. News flash; for the UN and the vast majority of the world the Palestinian Territories are not considered to be part of Israel. So what little human rights coverage that is in that section is buried in an article most people wouldn't think to look in. Israel and the apartheid analogy and the Israeli West Bank barrier do not focus on the most egregious human rights violations by Israelis. One focuses on apartheid. The other focuses on the barrier. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- We didn't say they were part of israel. Clearly, your focus is on Israel's actions and alleged violations of human rights. that's why we directed you to the article on israel's human rights record. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Those Israeli violations of human rights should be discussed in Human rights in the Palestinian territories, and not in Human rights in Israel. Putting Israeli violations of human rights there buries it somewhat out of sight, and looks like a POV fork. See Wikipedia:Content forking. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:40, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- We didn't say they were part of israel. Clearly, your focus is on Israel's actions and alleged violations of human rights. that's why we directed you to the article on israel's human rights record. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:46, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Human rights in Israel#Human rights record in the Occupied Territories, is one section of an article on Israel. News flash; for the UN and the vast majority of the world the Palestinian Territories are not considered to be part of Israel. So what little human rights coverage that is in that section is buried in an article most people wouldn't think to look in. Israel and the apartheid analogy and the Israeli West Bank barrier do not focus on the most egregious human rights violations by Israelis. One focuses on apartheid. The other focuses on the barrier. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- The issue of Human Rights, Timeshifter, is dealt with on Wikipedia in articles of the form "Human rights in X". This is the way this is done for many a country, including Western Democracies and Third World dictatorships (see Category:Human rights by country). I am not aware of any article detailing human rights violations by "Syrians", "Iranians", or "Americans". The articles are about a country's actions. Thus, following the same format, the issue of human rights violations in the territories, when attributed to Israel, is dealt with in Human rights in Israel. The format isn't holy, but it is the convention here.
- We don't, and won't, have an entire article dedicated to "the most egregious human rights violations by Israelis". That would simply be a one-sided POV propaganda article. What we do have, is an article discussing the situation in general, both the good and the bad, both the violations, and the rights that are preserved. But it seems to me you're looking for an attack on Israel, rather than an informative discussion of the subject. okedem (talk) 15:38, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- "But it seems to me you're looking for an attack on Israel, rather than an informative discussion of the subject." Your personal attacks and lack of good faith are against the spirit of this talk page and this WikiProject. You have done this many times before in previous discussions. It seems admins let you get away with it. As I have previously discussed, the logical names for the articles, should be similar to the ones for the categories:
- Category:Human rights in the Palestinian territories
- Category:Human rights in the West Bank
- Category:Human rights in the Gaza Strip
- See also List of human rights articles by country. Disputed territories follow the same naming pattern. See Human rights in Western Sahara. So the names of the articles should be:
- Human rights in the Palestinian territories
- Human rights in the West Bank
- Human rights in the Gaza Strip
- Human rights in the Palestinian territories is not about human rights violations by the Israelis. Imagine that. --Timeshifter (talk) 05:14, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Articles on human rights always include the most egregious human rights violations. Along with some of the lesser ones. It would be against WP:NPOV to include the lesser ones only.
- So Wikipedia is not following the norm in naming the articles, and in following WP:NPOV.--Timeshifter (talk) 05:15, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- Articles on human rights deal with both the good, and the bad. You want an article focusing on "the most egregious human rights violations". That will not be done.
- Your accusation of "POV-fork" seems to be the only lack of AGF attitude here. When that article was started, human rights issues both in Israel and in the territories were all mixed together. The data about the territories was written there (initially) by very pro-Palestinian users, by the way. The issues were sectioned to improve the order, since these are two different points of discussion. If you think that section should become an independent article, I have no objection. But I do object to your constant claims of bias, etc. No one's trying to hide anything, and this topic (the conflict) is among the better covered topics on this project. I'm sick and tired of reading these accusations. No one's at work trying to hide data. You may not like some way things are ordered, and that's fine. But realize, that while you think an article about the territories would be the way to go, other users will claim that moving that data from Israel's article is an attempt to hide Israel's "crimes", and that we shouldn't discuss only Israel itself there. That was clear from previous discussions.
- Instead of accusing Wikipedia and Wikipedians of bias, you could have just posted a comment saying: "Hi, I see the issue of human rights in the territories is dealt with inside of Human rights in Israel. I think it would be better to split it to a separate article, what do you think?". You would have gotten a short, to-the-point discussion. Instead, you chose the accusative route, and got what you asked for. okedem (talk) 10:47, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- The first thing I said about human rights info in this talk section was this: "It fits the pattern I have long pointed out concerning the lack of dedicated Wikipedia articles discussing human rights violations by Israel in the Israeli-occupied territories." We could waste further time discussing how this happened, and we could guess at the motivations of all involved (which I haven't done), or we could solve the problem. I am glad that you wrote: "If you think that section should become an independent article, I have no objection." By the way, saying that there may be systemic bias does not necessarily imply intention or motivation to hide anything. --Timeshifter (talk) 07:33, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Look, it's all about the attitude and assumptions. There was no editorial decision to not create an article about human rights in the territories. It's just that no one wrote it, and someone did write that info in Israel's article. Try to approach these things without assuming bias or anything, and just make suggestions. You'll find other users are much more receptive if you don't try to tie a specific point to some far-reaching bias or phenomenon.
- Now, I did say something about your suggestion, beyond my non-objection to it. I guarantee you this - if you move the territories info from Israel's article to a dedicated article (probably with two sections, for Israel and the PA resp.), you will have claims by others that it's not right to discuss only Israel itself in Israel's article. Some will claim that this is an attempt to hide Israel's actions, and paint a rosier picture. Someone is bound to claim this is proof of Wikipedia's "Systematic bias". This will happen, and users will object. If you want to do this, be aware of that, and come up with good reasons to still do this. okedem (talk) 07:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, someone did create an article about Israel's human rights record in the Palestinian Territories during the Second Intifada. Here is a detailed revision history of the original page that existed from February 2004 until January 2007: [11] It was under various names, but the admins deleted the page by redirecting the page to Second Intifada. There was no consensus to do that. Here is the last name of the page: Alleged human rights violations by Israel during Al-Aqsa Intifada (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). For the whole history please see: User:Timeshifter#Israeli human rights violations in the Palestinian territories. Here is a link to a userspace copy of the original page. As for moving the info from Human rights in Israel, I think the info should be moved into separate human rights articles for the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights. Those articles should cover the human rights record of all parties. If any article becomes too long we can split up that article into separate articles. For example; Human rights in the Palestinian National Authority, Israel's human rights record in the West Bank, and Israel's human rights record in the Gaza Strip. I think Human rights in the Palestinian territories should become a disambiguation page instead of being a redirect as it is now. Currently it redirects to Human rights in the Palestinian National Authority. Here is its history: Human rights in the Palestinian territories (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). --Timeshifter (talk) 11:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, but all that sounds unworkable, and would not add much to the articles. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- By the way, it seems unneccesary to group the record on Israel's treatment of the Palestinians with that of the Palestinian Authority. one is the duly elected representatives of the Palestinian people, the other is an occupying force. there is no comparison or equivalence between the two, and there is no reason to place them on any sort of equal footing. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Just chiming in here: Although one would not normally expect me to agree with Timeshifter on a controversy in this subject area, I do think there is potential merit to the last suggestion in his most recent post. That is, change Human rights in the Palestinian territories from a redirect to a disambiguation page, but only if the links on this disambiguation page are limited to the two relevant "Human rights" articles/sections. That is, Human rights in the Palestinian National Authority and Human rights in Israel#Human rights record in the Occupied Territories. That way, someone searching on "human rights in the Palestinian territories" will be sure to find a page that lets them choose between the two articles that, at least arguably, pertain to the topic they searched for. (I say "at least arguably" because the phrase "Occupied Territories" is arguably non-NPOV, and with regard to certain land is definitely non-NPOV, but that is what the Human rights in Israel article contains at the moment, so lets leave that issue aside.) What I don't want to see happen, however, is for that disambiguation page to become loaded up with links to every article that anybody thinks has something to do with human rights, because that will just shift the dispute rather than resolving it. So how about, as a compromise, turning that page into a disambiguation page with just those two items? 6SJ7 (talk) 18:43, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- By the way, it seems unneccesary to group the record on Israel's treatment of the Palestinians with that of the Palestinian Authority. one is the duly elected representatives of the Palestinian people, the other is an occupying force. there is no comparison or equivalence between the two, and there is no reason to place them on any sort of equal footing. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 14:28, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I get the impression of a muddying of the matter at hand. As is often the case on I-P articles, someone uses language that offends us and then we stop listening to the substance of their argument. I think the issue Carol raised is probably a bit different from that discussed by Timeshifter, and I would like to hear more from her(him?) about this, if possible. Also, although I understand what was written above, I'm unclear about the essence of Timeshifter's proposal, as well as Sm and Okedem's opposition. Timeshifter, could you state your proposal in a sentence, and Sm and Okedem, could you state your reasons for your opposition? Best, LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 16:02, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- LamaLoLeshLa. I think that 6SJ7's idea is a good start. Changing Human rights in the Palestinian Territories from a redirect page to a tightly-focussed disambiguation page would solve many of the problems that I see. That disambiguation page needs to link to 2 articles: Human rights in the Palestinian National Authority and Israel's human rights record in the Palestinian Territories. I think that "Human rights in the Palestinian National Authority" should be renamed to "Human rights record of the Palestinian National Authority" to make it clearer. There is way too much material concerning all sides to put it all in one page called "Human rights in the Palestinian Territories." So the disambiguation page is necessary. In reply to okedem's concerns about transferring most of the relevant info from Human rights in Israel there can be a summary there that links to "Human rights in the Palestinian Territories." --Timeshifter (talk) 05:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have no objections to the disambiguation suggestion. However, why even include a summary in Israel's article? Wouldn't that imply, as now, that the territories are a part of Israel? (in general, we make separate articles out of specific sections when they grow too large - but that doesn't change their hierarchy). okedem (talk) 06:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter to me either way if there is a summary in Human rights in Israel, nor what it implies. Wikipedia does not take sides. People have to make up their own minds. There is material in several articles that can be transferred or copied to "Israel's human rights record in the Palestinian Territories". The editors of those articles have to decide whether they want to summarize any of the info in those articles, and how they will link to "Israel's human rights record in the Palestinian Territories". See also Wikipedia:Splitting, Wikipedia:Article size, and Wikipedia:Content forking#Article spinouts - "Summary style" articles. --Timeshifter (talk) 12:51, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- I have no objections to the disambiguation suggestion. However, why even include a summary in Israel's article? Wouldn't that imply, as now, that the territories are a part of Israel? (in general, we make separate articles out of specific sections when they grow too large - but that doesn't change their hierarchy). okedem (talk) 06:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- LamaLoLeshLa. I think that 6SJ7's idea is a good start. Changing Human rights in the Palestinian Territories from a redirect page to a tightly-focussed disambiguation page would solve many of the problems that I see. That disambiguation page needs to link to 2 articles: Human rights in the Palestinian National Authority and Israel's human rights record in the Palestinian Territories. I think that "Human rights in the Palestinian National Authority" should be renamed to "Human rights record of the Palestinian National Authority" to make it clearer. There is way too much material concerning all sides to put it all in one page called "Human rights in the Palestinian Territories." So the disambiguation page is necessary. In reply to okedem's concerns about transferring most of the relevant info from Human rights in Israel there can be a summary there that links to "Human rights in the Palestinian Territories." --Timeshifter (talk) 05:04, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- If timeshifter wants, perhaps he can put some material together as a draft version, and maybe that might help us to discuss it more clearly. thanks. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 18:16, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- LamaLoLeshLa, please re-read my comments. I'm not opposed to the suggestion. I don't really care either way. It's just an ordering question, simple editorial choice, not about content. I am saying there will be opposition from other editors, who will claim that removing the territories info from Israel's human rights article is wrong, and is an attempt to "hide to the truth". Believe me, such claims will be made. I only wonder if Timeshifter (or others supporting this move) will be there to argue with those users, or will we end up with Israel's article being full, again, with irrelevant territories info. okedem (talk) 20:27, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, this point I understood - in fact, I would be one of those working hard not to see such information transplanted. But I wonder if there is no contradiction between keeping other articles as they are and what Carol, suggests. I still do not know, however, because I don't know for certain what she is proposing, or for what purpose. I do think more explanation of her proposal is required.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 02:08, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
- Timeshifter sort of hitched a ride on this section. Carol seems to be suggesting an article about international opinions regarding the occupation. I'm not sure such an article is necessary, as we do have a lot of information about that, just in specific articles, regarding specific issues. Israeli-occupied territories seems like the natural place for that. Maybe a section there? okedem (talk) 06:54, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Further discussion
Isn't there already an article on this topic? Second Intifada, perhaps? ← Michael Safyan (talk) 04:23, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Again, it is not a dedicated article about human rights violations by the Israelis, nor opposition, nor protests, nor worldwide government and popular positions. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:44, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Human rights violations by israel are not a notable topic. "Human rights record" is an encyclopedic topic; "human rights violation" is clearly unencyclopedic, with clear political motivations. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 15:43, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- By the way, while we're on the topic, can we create an article like Violations by Israel of every standard of human conduct, decency and democracy? thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sm8900 (talk • contribs) 16:05, 8 September 2008
- If you want to create it, go ahead. No-one is stopping you. Meanwhile, could you stop (uncharacteristically) maligning the perceived motivations of those you disagree with, and return to the issues? RolandR (talk) 16:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, I'll try to do so. thanks for your constructive message. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 17:07, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
- If you want to create it, go ahead. No-one is stopping you. Meanwhile, could you stop (uncharacteristically) maligning the perceived motivations of those you disagree with, and return to the issues? RolandR (talk) 16:18, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps a good start in organizing the material on human rights in the Palestinian territories would be to catalog the existing articles in the categories that have already been defined. For example, the article on Muhammad al-Durrah certainly belongs in the category Category:Human rights in the Gaza Strip, as do the articles on First Intifada and Second Intifada. The article Human rights in Israel should be included in the categories defined, as well.
Once we have identified all the existing articles on human rights in the Palestinian territories, we will be in a better position to determine whether the information should be reorganized and expanded to make it more accessible.
I certainly agree with Timeshifter that the way the information is currently organized makes it hard for a reader to get a clear or comprehensive understanding of the human rights situation in the Palestinian territories. --Ravpapa (talk) 13:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- As usual, an excellent suggestion from Ravpapa. Doing an inventory by category would help us greatly in filling in the blanks. I'll try to start tagging articles soon. Tiamuttalk 14:49, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- I went pretty much AWOL after starting this thread and in the meantime did learn a lot more about categories, so maybe if I asked the question now I'd start at that point :-) So is "Category:Palestine" the best starting point? I noticed a couple categories on Israel under it. I also noticed that none of the 22 categories under "Category:Israel" mentioned Palestine. If you dig into some categories, of course, you'll find Arab and/or Palestine mentioned. And I don't know if any articles are in both categories, assuming one digs deep enough.
- Maybe the answer to my initial specific question is the creation of a "Category: Supporters of Palestinian rights" or something would be good. And then all sorts of individuals and activist groups could be put under it! And there might be more motivation to fill in any missing blanks with relevant articles. :-) Carol Moore 03:49, 18 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
- Here is a search of wikipedia that lists categories with "supporters" in the name:
- http://www.google.com/search?q=site:en.wikipedia.org+Category+supporters
- Those category name search results may help in deciding on similar category names in this topic area. --Timeshifter (talk) 17:18, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
- And these are all under Category:Israeli-Palestinian_conflict I guess one has to study this section carefully. Portal:Contents. I don't think it's as user friendly as could be; "features" too far up, sayying index and indexes instead of indices would help a lot of people; maybe I'll comment there. Carol Moore 18:52, 18 September 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc {talk}
Dispute on "Media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict"
There is an editing dispute on Media coverage of the Arab-Israeli conflict regarding this diff. Outside input would be greatly appreciated. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 05:45, 9 September 2008 (UTC)
- The dispute is not really about the article, but about the infobox {{Template:Infobox Arab-Israeli conflict}}, and specifically about the image in that infobox. I have made a really radical suggestion about this, and welcome comments. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:20, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Two new templates
I'm concerned about two new templates that have been created/heavily modified by User:Nick Finnsbury: {{Villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict}} and {{Infobox Arab villages depopulated}}. I have started a discussion about the first in its own talk page. The second one - I just think it's inferior to the previous template, with which there's really nothing wrong. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 11:51, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- Is the military operation tab in the infobox necessary? Can't the relevant operation be put down as one of the causes of depopulation? -- Nudve (talk) 17:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, but in the end this isn't so important because the entire template is redundant. The current one is much better because it doesn't have any symbols (such as the Israeli CoA), is more compact, and technically far superior (e.g. has optional fields). Moreover, the new template displays clear POV due to its required fields, which are exactly the same fields used by palestineremembered.com, which has long since been branded an unreliable and undesirable source. Similar things can be said about the first template, even though that case is different because there's no current alternative (so it should be modified rather than deleted). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 14:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- You have a point. Has Nick Finnsbury been informed? -- Nudve (talk) 14:39, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- Not personally, but as I said, I have started a discussion at Template talk:Villages depopulated during the Arab–Israeli conflict, to which Nick Finnsbury has not replied. Not sure what to make of it, but I'll make sure to notify him if it is clear that he won't reply. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 15:44, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- You have a point. Has Nick Finnsbury been informed? -- Nudve (talk) 14:39, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
- I agree, but in the end this isn't so important because the entire template is redundant. The current one is much better because it doesn't have any symbols (such as the Israeli CoA), is more compact, and technically far superior (e.g. has optional fields). Moreover, the new template displays clear POV due to its required fields, which are exactly the same fields used by palestineremembered.com, which has long since been branded an unreliable and undesirable source. Similar things can be said about the first template, even though that case is different because there's no current alternative (so it should be modified rather than deleted). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 14:03, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
You guys are funny
Quote1: "Is the military operation tab in the infobox necessary? Can't the relevant operation be put down as one of the causes of depopulation? -- Nudve (talk) 17:34, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
Quote2: "I agree, but in the end this isn't so important because the entire template is redundant. The current one is much better"
Answer to both gentlemen: I dont know you, but I can put it fairly short: It is none of your business. I am here to help the palestinian side getting their Catastrophe (Nakba) portrayed more fairly. They are the underdog, so I take it that Mr. "Ynhockey" is not from England, or any places influenced by English civilisation, as i can convey to him, that we take pride in being on the side of the underdog. Israel is the most powerful country in the Mideast and the worlds fourth biggest nuclear weapons stockpile, while we here are dealing with a people, which have been forcefully thrown out of their ancestal home, and whose descendents are often stateless. If these one million people - today more then 2,5 million - had not been thrown out, they would have altered the whole political outfit of the entity that today are refferred to under the term 'Israel'.- and that was ultimately the reason why they were expelled.
As a matter of course the name of the military operations should be mentioned, as well as the brigades. And I chose the blue colour because it is the lovely israeli blue colour that Mr. "Ynhockey" loves so much, so arent you happy Mr "Ynhockey"? How the template looked before, and whether "you" think it was better, is no business to you, but first and foremost to the palestinians, who like what I have made.Nick Finnsbury (talk) 12:40, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
- Nick Finnsbury, Wikipedia is not a Palestinian encyclopedia, and comments like the above will not get you very far. Please review WP:CIVIL and WP:DR, and return with a constructive comment on why the template should be kept. I will propose the template for deletion tomorrow if the concerns Nudve and I posted about above are not addressed. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Note: I have listed the infobox for deletion here. Comments are welcome on the TfD page. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 14:08, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Totally unacceptable to bring up comparisons to socalled 'shoah' as the Nakba happened as a result of influx of (to many) jews. That upset the balance
It is not acceptable to bring up comparisons like these, It shows a selfcentredness to the extreme; the palestinians are the wounded part, who have had their land taken away from them. Think about them : They have to read about 'Shoah and Holocaust' in discussions about Nakba, and some even question the extend and seriousness of it!! Shame on you! Nudwe should have refused to discuss any further once the world 'Shoah' was mentioned.Nick Finnsbury (talk) 13:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
I assume we are talking about the 'list of villages depopulated in the(Arab-Israeli war 1948?
This is based in its entirety of a list of the similar name that exist in an article, that you can find, if you search for it.Nick Finnsbury (talk) 13:35, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Quote of the day:>That will not get you very far<
So you have supporters in higher places ready to support you? We will see. If they really do support you, we will have wikipedias bias laid our bare. They will present the israeli view, as very many of the (administrator)editors are honorary descendants of the distingiushed israelites. In a context like the israeli-palestinians one has to apply a meassure of largesse. Israel is the most powerful country in the mideast and number 4 in the world when it comes to possesion of nuclear weapons. What is more, it - and especially its powerful lobby in The United States - are able to steer the worlds only superpower into wars, that is not in its national interest, and that it has to provide the soldiers to as well as foot the bill! So we aggree we are talkinmg about a very powerful country? OKAY. Now if this country and its supporters start to use its influence in editing the history of the palestinians - a poor people that have had their countrey taken awaqy from it wuithout any compensation whatsoever,- that will be the day!!! In that case, I it will be my pleasure, if I cannot venture any further into the realms of this online encyclopedia.Nick Finnsbury (talk) 13:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Nick, this is the wrong page to get into this type of discussion. We are trying to "collaborate" (not in the Hebrew or Arabic sense) with one another here. I have not looked into the details of the above discussion, but through a quick scan, I can see that you are approaching this issue from a regular talk page perspective. This is not a 'regular talk page', in that at WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration we all agree not to violate WP:CIVIL for more than an instant. It's important not to set a precedent for incivility here. Please take this discussion to the talk page YNHockney set up for discussion of the templates. Only come here to make constructive arguments about resolving the issue with community-wide input. Thanks, LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 17:23, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Icehockey need to state right here: Which Template do he refer to
He mixes the two templates that I have made, together, to an extend so taht it is impossible to figure out, which one he refers to, and wamts deleted. He need very clearly to state which one he means should be deleted (?) and why, so that we are able to adress the concerns, he have.Nick Finnsbury (talk) 14:22, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Delete HonestReporting?
For some reason, there is currently a discussion about whether the organization HonestReporting meets the notability requirements to have a Wikipedia article. Whether you agree with HonestReporting or disagree with HonestReporting, isn't it quite obviously notable enough for a Wikipedia article? Certainly it's more notable than, for example, the Tara Foundation. In any event, whether you think that we should keep HonestReporting or whether you think that the article should be deleted for somehow not being notable enough, the vote is taking place here. Your feedback at that page would be greatly appreciated. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 04:07, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
- I would have voted to keep that article too - but let's not fool ourselves, this is not an RS, it's a reckless attack-dog that specialising in poisoning the debate. Our article should be geently leading our readers towards deeply unpleasant articles like this one "media's favorite Palestinian spokespersons, such as Saeb Erekat - a practiced liar if ever there was one". PRtalk 08:24, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- It's a very important organization and notable. I do not share PR's views on it at all. More honest reporting with regard to the issues in Israel is what is needed. They have uncovered a lot of troubling material and bias in the media. The work that they do has brought many newspapers to make many corrections upon being proved wrong by many readers. It would seem to me that if their "notability" was in question we could easily find all these corrections (thanks to HR's work) throughout many reliable sources. --Einsteindonut (talk) 04:27, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Dignity to all
(cross-posted at AN/I)
The CU result found out Saxophonemn and Einsteindonut editing from different locations but using the same user agent. Saxophonemn identified himself later on. I then unblocked him with a "I trust[ed] user's e-mails to prove innocence" rationale.
I hope that would stop the never-ending mutual accusations and provocations. I amazed by all those cartoons and incivility (Eleland), Mark Twain's irrelevant quote (Saxophonemn) video (Einsteindonut) and Jaakobou (comments directed at Tiamut a few weeks earlier), etc... Do we still block for wp:POINT, unnecessary and inflammatory acts?
Admins, please sort out the mess with objectivity and profesionalism and please stop arguing about WP:UNINVOLVED. This message is directed mainly to ChrisO and Elonka. I urge both of these admins to stop it or let others deal with the sitaution(s).
Partisans, please don't flood threads with repetitive wikilawyering.
To everyone, there's one important thing to all of us... Dignity. To understand racism we must first understand dignity. Let's start with this... Dignity does not consist in possessing honors, but in deserving them. (Aristotle)
P.S. By the way Erik, CU on oneself to prove innocence "are rarely accepted, please do not ask." And the issue of Saxophonemn/Einsteindonut has already been clarified. As I said above, accusations of sockpuppetry should stop. Any further accusation would be faced by a block. And any further provocative comments from any side would be faced with harsh blocks. -- fayssal - wiki up® 03:36, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
- Inflammatory comments regularly appear and are bound to impinge upon the apparent fitness of editors to edit on difficult topics. However, CIVIL does not ultimately impinge on the product - whereas RS and UNDUE (along with V, OR etc) are at the core of it. Wilfully ignoring these latter policies is a really major problem (always has been). But at least in the past, we were paying lip-service to the concept and control of WP:DE or "disruptive editing" - why has that changed? In more and more places, TalkPage discussion is being killed by straightforward denial of what's in the sources (eg here). Honest editors cannot fight this other than by accusing other editors of being parsimonious with the verité - where are the administrators when we need them? (I have run the above example by several, experienced, editors in the project. One of the most trusted has confirmed there is nothing to say that the RS newspaper article in question was ever retracted). I could go to some effort to correct what might (just conceivably) be an honest mistake (as most of my valued helpers would probably wish me to do), but the consequence of doing so is often highly personalised and nonsensical additions from editors who have clearly and repeatedly been told to avoid me. Again, where are the administrators? PRtalk 17:05, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
Village depopulation template (again)
My last concerns about this template have been buried under a mile of rubble, so I'm re-starting the discussion, with a related issue: on the template {{Villages depopulated during the 1948 Arab–Israeli War}}, two completely irrelevant images exist, but because only 2 editors (Timeshifter and myself) are participating in the discussion, and neither side accepts the other's viewpoint, there is no way to gain consensus. I request that the editors of IPCOLL review the arguments from both sides, and insert their 2 cents about whether these images are relevant, should be removed, or perhaps another idea neither of us has thought of. Thanks, Ynhockey (Talk) 10:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
WikiProject Middle East Textbooks is Looking for Members
Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle East Textbooks/Invitation Hi. All of you are invited to join WP:WikiProject Middle East Textbooks. I look forward to seeing many of you sign-up. ← Michael Safyan (talk) 19:13, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
While looking around at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/CAIR_Watch I noticed at CAIR Watch this template which links to this article Controversies_related_to_Islam_and_Muslims which of course is quite biased. Can you imagine if anyone tried to start "Controversies related to Jews and Israel?" However, maybe a factual "Controversies related to Israel" article would be warranted, if someone else wants to start it. Carol Moore 19:06, 21 October 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc
- This is interesting: Category:Religious controversies. It seems there are whole categories on "dangerous" Islamic expansionism. Such as Category:Eurabia, a subcategory of Category:Islam-related controversies.
- I don't see an equivalent number of categories and subcategories dedicated to "dangerous" Christian expansionism, and "dangerous" Jewish expansionism. They are not filled out as much, nor do they cover the political and territorial side of their respective "dangerous" expansionisms as much. See: Category:Christianity-related controversies and Category:Jews and Judaism-related controversies. This is a typical Western systemic bias. See WP:CSB. --Timeshifter (talk) 21:35, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see such a big problem with this because it's a simple navigational list, but don't think it should be ethnically or nationally-based. Therefore, 'Controversies related to Islam' or 'Controversies related to Judaism' would be alright, but 'Controversices related to Syria' or 'Controversies related to Israel' would not. My reasoning is that religions are controversial, even the most peaceful ones, and we shouldn't censor something as harmful as a list, and because they are followed out of choice, I don't see this as racist. However, controversies about countries or ethnicities imply that they involve all members of said country/ethnicity, which is clearly racist and inappropriate. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 22:22, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for category links. I'm still not great at navigating my way through them!
- I don't think controversies about countries are bigoted as long they are about specific acts of governments or businesses or organizations or citizen attitudes statistically supported by reputable polling and other techniques. Obviously some countries have more controversies than others (i.e. Israel many, Norway relatively few) and if there are too many for a subsection, they might deserve an article. I note the Israel article doesn't have a controversies section or even a See Also section. Carol Moore 02:26, 22 October 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc
Here are my two cents on the topic:
- A "controversies" article is legitimate if:
- The controversy does, indeed, exist.
- The controversy extends beyond extreme/fringe groups and has a scholarly basis.
- A "controversies" article should not be created to "take revenge" or "counter-balance" another controversies article.
- A "controversies" article should be careful to avoid material of extreme/fringe/hate groups.
- Given the above, the subject of the controversy doesn't matter.
- A "controversies" article is legitimate if:
I think a controversies article on Israel is perfectly reasonable, since there are legitimate controversies with regard to the political decisions made by the Israeli government. I am more than a little concerned about a "Judaism-related controversies" article, though, since I could see such an article easily going into anti-Semitic content. Perhaps a "Controversies within Judaism" rather "Controversies related to Judaism" article would be more appropriate.
← Michael Safyan (talk) 08:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- I strongly object to any such thing. "Controversies" is a meaningless categorization. Any such "controversies", if they are notable, should be dealt with in their respective topic articles (such as - foreign relations, occupied territories, human rights, settlements, etc.) okedem (talk) 09:34, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- @Michael Safyan - congratulations on summing up the serious danger of one of these proposals and the uncontroversial nature of the other one! PRtalk 12:29, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
Question: in this "controversies" context, which country would be listed down for the killing of Mughniyeh? Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Qatar... ? JaakobouChalk Talk 11:31, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with okedem. For all X, I oppose having an article called "Controversies related to X". All Wikipedia articles describe controversies when there are controversies related to their subject matter (WP:NPOV). If there isn't enough room in the "Israel" article for all the controversies related to Israel, then subtopic articles can be split off with specific subtopics. The title of each article should be NPOV. In any article, describing anti-Semitism (or any other POV) is OK if relevant to the topic; writing from such a POV (or any other specific POV) is not OK. ☺ Coppertwig (talk) 14:13, 23 October 2008 (UTC)
- First, remember this discussion was started because of an existing article Controversies_related_to_Islam_and_Muslims. That was before I was told there was a whole Category:Religious controversies. (Some feel it is biased to include too many articles about-or against-Islam.) So starting a Category:Israel-related controversies and linking to existing articles on the occupation, Dier Yassin, Israel's nuclear program, the Samson Option, USS Liberty, various wars of aggression, etc. etc. is an option. And if someone feels there are enough controversies to add a section in the Israel article and then to spill over into a Controversies Related to Israel article, obviously the usual WP:RS, WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, etc. policies apply. Carol Moore 12:04, 24 October 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc
BLP violations on Gilad Atzmon
This article has been pretty quiet for a while but a couple of POV, insulting editors have come along and started making POV edits and reverting changes, and making no or questionable excuses on talk page. Thus my "Incident Report" - October 26: Serious BLP violations on Gilad Atzmon described here. Yet an administrator threatens WP:3RR (3 revert rule] - ignoring Wikipedia:3rr#Exceptions - while refusing to detail his specific concern on the articles talk page! If this keeps up, what options should I pursue of those listed on the main page of this article? Thanks. Carolmooredc 17:52, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- Removed "What's Happening report" on article page because discussion ensued and therefore putting discussion here:Carolmooredc 18:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- I must disagree with Carole's summary above. There has indeed been an edit war on the article, but it seems to me that the POV edits and arbitrary (mis)use of sources have come from both sides. It is true that other editors have made uncalled for attacks on Carole in edit summaries, and action should be taken against this. But the issue here is a content dispute, in which Carole and I take different positions. I'm not sure it is a matter for this project. RolandR (talk) 18:01, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
- Since Roland hasn't commented on the talk page since May 28, including answering recent comments on his recent edits, I am glad to see evidence he is willing to do so. Also the admin is now denying his repeated reminders were threats. But it certainly does feel like one of those situations that the original Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Palestine-Israel_articles was created to deal with which is why I brought it here. However, obviously I prefer to deal with issues on the talk page, if people are willing to talk and not just revert away. Carolmooredc 18:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)
I have been away on vacation, followed by a frustration-induced wiki-break upon return, but have been back on wiki for a while now, editing and commenting along. This week, I learned that I have been classified as one of the “heavily biased anti-Israel” editors[12] at Wikipedia. I checked the IPCOLL archives for the period during my absence and found this subject has not been raised, so I am raising it, because I feel it significant for this page. I have yet to fully digest the implications of such a classification or my response to it, but I will state the following, simply. I am not anti-Israel, but understand that my life, learning and biases might seem that way to some (and I was overly up-front about that). I am pro-Peace and understand that that bias alone provokes JIDF and their ilk, particularly the post-’67, post-Begin Eretz Israel Zionist zealots. So be it. My noted biases are much different than my commitment to NPOV on Wikipedia where the proof is in one’s article edits, not one’s biases. I can not and will not speak for others; they may or may not do it for themselves.
I want to point out that nine of the 19 listed ‘anti-Israel’ editors (47%) are members of IPCOLL and constitute about a quarter of IPCOLL’s membership. A further 4 listed editors (no overlap) are either named or participated in the RfA that birthed IPCOLL, although many members here can claim that distinction. What does all this mean or foretell; frankly I don’t know. I will surmise that they are suspicious of a) about half the people who ended up being cited in the RfA, b) about half the people who where not cited but defended similar positions, and c) many people who are oppositely POV’d but are particularly willing to collaborate. To me, it indicates an aversion to arbitration, collaboration, WP:AGF and NPOV on JIDF’s part, all basic wiki tenents. It may indicate that other editors with similar alternative knowledge, WP:RSs, bias, and wiki-skills, many of whom are here, will likely end up on the list as it is updated.
I’d be interested to hear and learn what some of the non-listed IPCOLL members think, collaboratively. Happy editing. CasualObserver'48 (talk) 09:26, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
- Should I Jewish Internet Defense Force ( admin@thejidf.org ) a snotty message about being genocidal sexists for not mentioning me?? :-) Who do they think spearheaded turning Jewish Lobby into a more NPOV article, with lots of help from my friends. Who has tried to make sure every description of what was said by or about Gilad Atzmon was accurate and source-based? Who promotes a libertarian decentralist view of Israel existing in noncontiguous tiny areas of justly acquired land (10-15%). Who organized 4 of the 5 last protests at the DC AIPAC annual convention? Just look at my contributions you sexist pigs! Give me my day in the sun!!! (They should be glad I'm wasting so much time on wikipedia instead of really causing trouble with serious organizing.)
- On a more serious note, obviously if I had a job where I was worried about getting fired for such editing I'd be worried. And there is the issue of whether to cover their attacks on wiki users in Jewish Internet Defense Force - or to use this as an excuse to delete the article. (I assume it's been through an AfD and helpful to post that link if you have it.) Carol Moore 15:45, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc
- Well, my name is up there in lights, and I am not amused. The innocuous-sounding "Doing a simple search for "Pedrito" yields [..]" is, of course, hogwash. Also, the diff showing where I was allegedly "stripping out important context" shows me adding context and not removing a single character of text. So apart from being evil, they're also morons?
- I used to edit here under my real name but gave it up when I realized that some half-assed crazies, who incidentally don't have the balls to write under their real names, might start accusing me of anti-Semitism, as they have done with other editors. How charming.
- Cheers, pedrito - talk - 27.10.2008 16:11
- Actually, I make light of it because even in progressive peace and libertarian groups and email lists there are always those one or two people who scream antisemite at the slightest criticism of the state of Israel -- even if you start by posting articles from moderate Israeli and Jewish peace groups! (Which became my little test to out the screamers in any new email list I might join.) Not to mention if you get a little more hard core. And I'm the type of person who, the more they scream it, the more hardcore stuff I post. (Though it can get tiring, so my engaging in the debate tends to be episodic, like my editing on the topic here.) So unless one has a very public persona and/or hard shell it probably is best to use a handle when editing these articles. But let's face it, if suddenly there were hundreds of wiki editors and millions of emailers and letter writers and protesters willing to tell the WP:RS truth and protest the nonsense, maybe eventually the intimidators would find they'd lost their power and give up. It's just good nonviolent action. Carol Moore 21:30, 27 October 2008 (UTC)Carolmooredc
Category:Palestinian terrorists is a subcategory of Category:Terrorists by nationality.
Category:Islamist terrorists is a subcategory of Category:Religious terrorism.
Why is there no Category:Jewish terrorists?
And why is there no Category:Israeli terrorists?
I just heard on National Public Radio here in the USA today of yet another attack by Israeli Jewish fundamentalist settlers rampaging in a Palestinian village. NPR reported that some are calling it a terrorist attack. They have killed many Palestinian civilians in various attacks over decades. They are frequently called terrorists by many reliable sources.
Also, many of the founding militant organizations of Israel have been called terrorists by Western governments and mainstream media. That means some of the members of these organizations should be categorized under Category:Israeli terrorists. They killed many Palestinian civilians before, during, and after the founding of Israel.
For many examples of terrorism by Israelis, and by Jewish militants before and during the founding of Israel see:
- Category:Jewish terrorism
- Cave of the Patriarchs massacre
- Gush Emunim Underground
- Jewish Defense League
- Haganah
- Kach and Kahane Chai
- Israeli settlement#Settlements, Palestinians, and human rights
- Human rights in Israel#Human rights record in the Occupied Territories
- User:Timeshifter/Al-Aqsa Intifada Archive. Old page
- Image:Intifada deaths.svg
- Category:Second Intifada casualties
- List of Palestinian civilian casualties in the Second Intifada
- Irgun
- History of terrorism#Irgun (1936-1948)
- Lehi (group)
- Zionist political violence
- Category:Massacres in Palestine
The lack of this category Category:Israeli terrorists is another example of Western systemic bias. Please see WP:Countering systemic bias. Wikipedia must honor WP:NPOV more systematically. --Timeshifter (talk) 14:07, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- The leaders of the military wings of these groups when they were attacking trains etc. could certainly be labelled as terrorists, as can the perpertrators. The assassin of Yitzhak Rabin would certainly count as another example of an Israeli terrorist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Peter cohen (talk • contribs) 15:32, 30 October 2008
- I also just found this:
- List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s
- Someone just tried to remove Irgun from Category:Jewish terrorism. See also: History of terrorism#Irgun (1936-1948). --Timeshifter (talk) 18:50, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please read Jewish terrorism - Jewish terrorism is religious terrorism by those whose motivations are rooted in their interpretations of Judaism. Irgun does not fit this. NoCal100 (talk) 01:07, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) From Irgun (emphasis added):
- The Irgun was the armed expression of the nascent ideology of Revisionist Zionism founded by Ze'ev Jabotinsky. He expressed this ideology as "every Jew had the right to enter Palestine; only active retaliation would deter the Arabs and the British; only Jewish armed force would ensure the Jewish state".[1] Initially, a central part of their efforts included attacks against Palestinian Arabs,[2] but it increasingly shifted to attacks against the British. Some of the better-known attacks by Irgun were the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre (accomplished together with the Stern Gang) on 9 April 1948. In the West, Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by The New York Times newspaper,[3][4] and by the Anglo-American Committee of Enquiry.[5] Irgun attacks prompted a formal declaration from the World Zionist Congress in 1946, which strongly condemned "the shedding of innocent blood as a means of political warfare".[6]
See also: History of terrorism#Irgun (1936-1948). --Timeshifter (talk) 10:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Since you apparently don't know this, 'Jew' is an ethnicity. The religion you might be thinking about is 'Judaism'. Nothing in the text you quote above suggests that the Irgun's motivations were rooted in their interpretations of Judaism. The article and category is for religiously-motivated terrorism. NoCal100 (talk) 13:41, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please do not make assumptions. See Who is a Jew?. The category is called "Jewish terrorism". See Category:Jewish terrorism. The articles listed in that category fit the template requirements at the top of the page. There is no requirement that "Jewish" must mean only one definition of the word. Admins don't look kindly on this type of semantic wikilawyering. Are you aware of this?: Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#ArbCom authorizes discretionary sanctions. I noticed that you also removed the category from List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've quoted to you from the article on Jewish terrorism, and will do so again: Jewish terrorism is religious terrorism by those whose motivations are rooted in their interpretations of Judaism. Irgun does not fit this. I notice also that the category used to include a similar clarification ("This category is purely for Jewish Religious terrorism. ") which someone removed. I will restore that to make it clearer. NoCal100 (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- None of the editors of the category wanted the qualifier. The editor who originally added the qualifier removed it. You put it back just now. See the history of Category:Jewish terrorism. Irgun's motivations are rooted in their Judaism. No amount of semantics changes this. They weren't hiding it. --Timeshifter (talk) 19:28, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with NoCal100 on this. Attacks by the Haganah, Irgun and Stern Group should not be included in a category of Jewish terrorism any more than attacks by Fatah, PFLP or even Hizballah should be included in Islamic terrorism. What we need, in fact, is a category for Zionist terrorism, which could include these and other pages. RolandR (talk) 19:13, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Is Fatah, PFLP, and Hizballah membership mainly Moslem? Have they committed terrorist acts? If so, then they belong in the category for Islamic terrorists. Haganah, Irgun and Stern Group are all Jewish groups that were trying to create a Jewish state, and they committed terrorist acts. All of the above-mentioned groups meet the criteria of the category template: {{Terrorism category definition}}. There has also been a CFD discussion. See: Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2008 July 25#Unqualified "Terrorism". If people want to create more narrow categories, then they need to make the category name itself clearer. Category trees start from the general and then go down to more specific subcategories. So Category:Zionist terrorism would be a subcategory of Category:Jewish terrorism.--Timeshifter (talk) 19:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I've quoted to you from the article on Jewish terrorism, and will do so again: Jewish terrorism is religious terrorism by those whose motivations are rooted in their interpretations of Judaism. Irgun does not fit this. I notice also that the category used to include a similar clarification ("This category is purely for Jewish Religious terrorism. ") which someone removed. I will restore that to make it clearer. NoCal100 (talk) 17:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Please do not make assumptions. See Who is a Jew?. The category is called "Jewish terrorism". See Category:Jewish terrorism. The articles listed in that category fit the template requirements at the top of the page. There is no requirement that "Jewish" must mean only one definition of the word. Admins don't look kindly on this type of semantic wikilawyering. Are you aware of this?: Wikipedia:WikiProject Israel Palestine Collaboration#ArbCom authorizes discretionary sanctions. I noticed that you also removed the category from List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s. --Timeshifter (talk) 16:51, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- I think NoCal100 and RolandR are onto something here. The terrorism related to the Northern Irish troubles was at one point reported in Britain as Catholic or Protestant, but was actually between rival nationalisms and was eventually described as either Loyalist or Republican in the British media. Zionism is the nationalism of Jews as Jews and that rather than the religion is what should be labelled. If the religious groups on Israel got beyond shaking their fists and shouting at people who drive on Shabbas and start blowing them up, then that would be Jewish terrorism as a form of religious terrorism. The current classification of the Zionist terrorist as Jewish terrorism laced in turn under religious terrorism is misleading.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Category inclusion is always less nuanced than what articles and lists can do. So we either eliminate "terrorism" and "terrorist" from category names, or we accept that category inclusion is imperfect. We can point out in the religious terrorism/terrorist category introduction template that just because an organization or individual is included in a category does not necessarily mean that the organization or individual is strictly religiously focussed, nor can all their activities be labeled as terrorist. We can point out the intersection of religion and nationalism, and can add "see also" links to some of the nationalism categories and subcategories. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:08, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- I think NoCal100 and RolandR are onto something here. The terrorism related to the Northern Irish troubles was at one point reported in Britain as Catholic or Protestant, but was actually between rival nationalisms and was eventually described as either Loyalist or Republican in the British media. Zionism is the nationalism of Jews as Jews and that rather than the religion is what should be labelled. If the religious groups on Israel got beyond shaking their fists and shouting at people who drive on Shabbas and start blowing them up, then that would be Jewish terrorism as a form of religious terrorism. The current classification of the Zionist terrorist as Jewish terrorism laced in turn under religious terrorism is misleading.--Peter cohen (talk) 21:22, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) NoCal100 has been blocked. Here is his block log: [13] - 19:18, 31 October 2008 Nishkid64 (Talk | contribs) blocked NoCal100 (Talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of 31 hours (Edit warring: Sbarro restaurant suicide bombing and Reactions to the September 11 attacks.) --Timeshifter (talk) 20:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Other editors have discussed this issue of inclusion in Category:Jewish terrorism at Talk:Lehi (group). There will probably have to be a CFD discussion concerning Category:Religious terrorism and its subcategories. --Timeshifter (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- I don't actually see any discussion of this issue at Talk:Lehi (group). Regardless, it is clear from the discussion above that you do not have consensus for including this category at Irgun or other similar articles, so please stop disruptively adding it against consensus. NoCal100 (talk) 16:23, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- You are not looking very hard. There is an old talk section named after the category in question. Several editors have pointed out the terrorist acts of the Irgun, and a similar organization, Lehi (group). Both on their talk pages, in the edit histories, etc.. Also, at List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s, and at History of terrorism#Irgun (1936-1948). And their talk pages, too. Lehi (group) has been listed for awhile under Category:Jewish terrorism. Only one editor, you, has removed the category recently from Irgun. Editors are discussing the terrorist acts of these groups in several locations, and discussion is fluid and continuing. You are the only editor insistent on removing this category from Irgun. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- The discussion you are referring to is 6 months old, and it ended with the category EXCLUDED from the article. Please get consensus for your controversial change first. NoCal100 (talk) 19:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- The discussion is 4, not 6 months old, and did not end with the category excluded from the article. So far, nobody has come up with a proper argument why the category does not apply, besides WP:IDONTLIKEIT and some contorted derivatives of it. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:41, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- The discussion you are referring to is 6 months old, and it ended with the category EXCLUDED from the article. Please get consensus for your controversial change first. NoCal100 (talk) 19:46, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- You are not looking very hard. There is an old talk section named after the category in question. Several editors have pointed out the terrorist acts of the Irgun, and a similar organization, Lehi (group). Both on their talk pages, in the edit histories, etc.. Also, at List of Irgun attacks during the 1930s, and at History of terrorism#Irgun (1936-1948). And their talk pages, too. Lehi (group) has been listed for awhile under Category:Jewish terrorism. Only one editor, you, has removed the category recently from Irgun. Editors are discussing the terrorist acts of these groups in several locations, and discussion is fluid and continuing. You are the only editor insistent on removing this category from Irgun. --Timeshifter (talk) 18:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Context for Palestinian bombings and other attacks
Recently I've been trying to add some context to articles on Palestinian attacks on Israelis, much in the same way that we have it in the articles on Israeli military interventions. Things are getting a bit sticky on
and I was wondering if some more experienced editors could get involved to keep things balanced.
Cheers and many thanks, pedrito - talk - 30.10.2008 14:41
- We could indeed use some help here, as the "context" Pedro is adding in many of these article sis based on either his original research, or uses unreliable sources. NoCal100 (talk) 15:09, 30 October 2008 (UTC)
Both posters in this thread are now blocked, partially for activities on the page concerned here. Anyone care to discuss over at the talk page?--Peter cohen (talk) 20:42, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
Reliable sources: Sabri Jiryis and Uri Davis?
2-3 years ago I added some information to the history-section in Karmiel, information sourced in a book by Sabri Jiryis (which in turn was largely based on research done by Uri Davis) AFAIK, nobody has questioned the accuracy/truth of the information given by Jiryis.
Earlier this month most of that information was removed, and now it is argued that Sabri Jiryis and Uri Davis are not WP:RS. Please see the discussion on Talk:Karmiel.
More eyes are needed here, IMO. Please voice your opinion. Thank you. Regards, Huldra (talk) 13:31, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Just for the record, there is no evidence that Huldra's additions to the article were based on research by Uri Davis, and he has failed to provide a draft (which I requested) with information based directly on works by Davis and not Jiryis. Also for the record, I didn't argue Uri Davis's validity as a WP:RS in general, just for the purposes of historical information, because Davis is not an historian (similar to Chomsky for example, who would be WP:RS for linguistics, but not for history). -- Ynhockey (Talk) 13:40, 31 October 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, you're dead wrong on that puritanical reading of RS, certainly with the Chomsky case. Wikipedia I/P articles are sourced to newspaper articles written by journalists who are not historians, nor, for that, particularly good journalists, but the newspapers, being mainstream, are RS. I gave a list sometime back of 16 top scholars in every major area of modern thought who were not qualified in disciplines where they distinguished themselves, i.e. Claude Lévi-Strauss studied law and philosophy, and got a degree in the latter. He became one of the foremost anthropologists in the world. Joseph Needham's only qualification was in biochemistry, he was one of the greatest sinologists of his time. One of the best articles on Ithaka is writen by a businessman, one of the world's authorities of hallucinogenic mushrooms was a banker, the list is endless. Chomsky's primary qualification is in linguistics (specializing in Hebrew), and has written several substantial works on I/P issues that are, in turn, frequently sourced by area specialists, in dissent or agreement. Chomsky, apart from the Cambodian interlude, is not criticized by his adversaries for bad citation of the abundant evidence, but for his interpretation of that evidence. The evidence he has is eminently citable for I/P articles.
- (2) If that reading were true, then you and many others are extending an open invitation to all editors of any persuasion to systematically elide any reference in I/P articles to Alan Dershowitz's Case for Israel, to cite one of a good many examples. He's a professor of law (and as an historian notoriously bad). These rules were aimed to keep outerratic sourcing by overeager kids or POV-pushers, not to make citation of strong interpretive works by scholars of world standing (Dershowitz in law, Chomsky in linguistics) impossible.Nishidani (talk) 21:18, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Neither Dershowitz nor Chomsky are historians and shouldn't be used for I-P articles. Please read exceptional claims require exceptional sources, and since almost everything in this field is an exception claim, we must be very careful with sources. IMO, mainstream media's use as sources should also be reduced, but it is generally much more reliable than both Chomsky and Dershowitz, who have clear political agendas, aside from not being historians. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 21:57, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think you are aware of what you are implying. Do you mean I have to go immediately, to cite one of several hundred pages, and names, and wipe Dore Gold and Mitchell Bard off the Jerusalem Page because they are cited there on issues they have no technical expertise in? It means Larry Collins and Dominique Lapierre should be removed from that page as well, including all wiki pages dealing with 1948? WP:REDFLAG has nothing to do with the argument. I never mentioned exceptional claims at all.) Your claim here means that probably a third of the sources used in I/P articles have to be elided, since you are saying only someone qualified in a subject with formal academic credentials can be cited on that subject, a rule I would approve off, but which is never applied. As to having a political agenda, many historians, Efraim Karsh, Benny Morris, Bernard Lewis etc. have them. In any case, if you wish, I will over the next few months review all pages I am interested in, using your rule, and direct you to all sources which according to your reading here, must be erased. The list is huge. In the meantime I look foreward to you removing those four names from the Jerusalem article. The final irony is that we have now, on the grounds you exclude Chomsky, to ban Walter Laqueur from I/P pages, though he is regarded as an accomplished historian. He never got a degree in the subject.Nishidani (talk) 22:20, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
- Ynhockey did not say the problem with Chomsky was that he had no degree in the subject, but that he was not a historian. Chomsky, like Dershowitz, is a figure who has gained respect, fame, and recognition in another professional area, and has also written polemically about the I-P conflict. They are not historians, nor are Jiryis or Davis, unlike Laqueur, who is one. Please desist from making straw man arguments. Jayjg (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- Strawman links seem to be your Pavlovian shorthand for 'I haven't got an adequate argument to reply to you'. You're quite entitled to a personal opinion, as is Ynhockey. But it is irrational, and an abuse to apply one strict reading of WP:RS to elide 'pro-Palestinian' sources, while doing nothing to extend the same strict interpretation to 'pro-Israeli' sources, as you do customarily. That is gaming the system. Note that there is no answer from either of you to the inconsistency pointed out. Laqueur is not a qualified historian: he writes historical books. Chomsky is not a qualified historian, he writes historical books. You are both profoundly inconsistent, and should reflect on this. I would be happy if the strict criterion both you and Ynhockey promote, were policy. I happen to approve of much of Ynhockey's work, but if this strict reading is not extended to the huge amount of sourcing not derived from professional scholars used by 'pro-Israeli' editors as well in the future, then a grave inconsistency in judgement will become apparent. I trust he will take care to maintain consistency in the matter.Nishidani (talk) 10:05, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- I can't see how you worked out the last point. Most historians in this field are anti-Israel, and neither of us has worked to remove their content. I think the best example is Khalidi, who constantly attacks Israel and writes only about the bad things Israel and Israelis have done. Even so, he's an historian, and Chomsky, Dershowitz, Davis and Jiryis are not. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:04, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- Nishidan, please try to focus on the points under discussion, rather than other editors, or on straw man statements unrelated to reality. The reason why contentious historical claims by non-historians are excluded is because they are non-historians, not because they are anti-Israeli. In addition to the many books of history he has written, Laqueur was Director of the Institute of Contemporary History and the Wiener Library in London for 30 years, and has been a visiting professor of history and government at Harvard, University of Chicago, Tel Aviv and Johns Hopkins University. Chomsky, like Dershowitz, writes polemical works about historical situations; that is not being a historian. Jayjg (talk) 22:03, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- Strawman links seem to be your Pavlovian shorthand for 'I haven't got an adequate argument to reply to you'. You're quite entitled to a personal opinion, as is Ynhockey. But it is irrational, and an abuse to apply one strict reading of WP:RS to elide 'pro-Palestinian' sources, while doing nothing to extend the same strict interpretation to 'pro-Israeli' sources, as you do customarily. That is gaming the system. Note that there is no answer from either of you to the inconsistency pointed out. Laqueur is not a qualified historian: he writes historical books. Chomsky is not a qualified historian, he writes historical books. You are both profoundly inconsistent, and should reflect on this. I would be happy if the strict criterion both you and Ynhockey promote, were policy. I happen to approve of much of Ynhockey's work, but if this strict reading is not extended to the huge amount of sourcing not derived from professional scholars used by 'pro-Israeli' editors as well in the future, then a grave inconsistency in judgement will become apparent. I trust he will take care to maintain consistency in the matter.Nishidani (talk) 10:05, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
- Ynhockey did not say the problem with Chomsky was that he had no degree in the subject, but that he was not a historian. Chomsky, like Dershowitz, is a figure who has gained respect, fame, and recognition in another professional area, and has also written polemically about the I-P conflict. They are not historians, nor are Jiryis or Davis, unlike Laqueur, who is one. Please desist from making straw man arguments. Jayjg (talk) 00:45, 2 November 2008 (UTC)