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ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk | contribs) →Oppose this proposal and oppose retention of 'Republic of Ireland' as article title.: "Commonname" gets us nowhere |
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Furthermore, 'Ireland' is the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] used internationally for the state, with the UK being the sole exception (usage in Ireland is exceptional). --[[User:Red King|Red King]] ([[User talk:Red King|talk]]) 16:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC) |
Furthermore, 'Ireland' is the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] used internationally for the state, with the UK being the sole exception (usage in Ireland is exceptional). --[[User:Red King|Red King]] ([[User talk:Red King|talk]]) 16:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:And it is also the [[WP:COMMONNAME]] used internationally, ''and'' in Ireland, for Ireland. So your observation is not very relevant: we still have to either disambiguate (as for Korea) or combine the articles (as for [[China]] or [fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irlande_(pays) Irlande_(pays)]). And if we are choosing to disambiguate, then it's a fact that when people, both in Ireland and outside, are trying to distinguish between the independent Irish state on the one hand and Ireland as a whole on the other, they generally do so by referring to the former as "southern Ireland", "the Republic of Ireland", "Eire", or something of the sort. Fortunately for us, one of these is in [[WP:COMMONNAME|common use]] in Ireland and elsewhere for the purpose ''and'' is recognised as the 'description of the State' by Irish law. [[User:ComhairleContaeThirnanOg|ComhairleContaeThirnanOg]] ([[User talk:ComhairleContaeThirnanOg|talk]]) 10:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC) |
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===Discussion on poll closing=== |
===Discussion on poll closing=== |
Revision as of 10:40, 24 October 2011
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Poll on extending ArbCom resolution for two years
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
- There is clearly no consensus for the proposal, being to "extend" ArbCom's ban on page move discussions for a further two years. The numbers and arguments are quite evenly split between those who consider the ban on discussions to be serving the project well, and those who believe a further ban would be an inappropriate restriction on what they see as necessary community discussion. The usual position on wikipedia is that "no consensus" means the status quo prevails. Here, the status quo is that ArbCom's ban expires according to its terms. For the community to ban itself from discussing matters would require consensus, and there is none here. I note for completeness that this outcome does not purport to bind ArbCom in any future exercise of its usual powers and functions: I don't consider anyone in the discussion to have suggested as such. --Mkativerata (talk) 21:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Should the ArbCom binding resolution on the appropriate names for Ireland and related articles be extended for a further two years? (10:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC) sign for the rfc bot)
- The Binding resolution reads: Once the procedures discussed in Remedy #1 (and, if necessary, Remedy #2) are implemented, no further page moves discussions related to these articles shall be initiated for a period of 2 years.
- The procedures discussed in Remedy #1 and Remedy #2 were deemed to have been implemented on 18 September 2009. The result was: no page move for Ireland, Republic of Ireland or Ireland (disambiguation).
Survey
- Please indicate support or oppose below. Please keep any comments brief, and do not respond to other participants' comments below their !vote. General discussion should be confined to the "Discussion" section below.
Support extending the resolution
- Support, unless it emerges from the discussion that consensus has changed. --Scolaire (talk) 10:08, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support From what I can see nothing material has changed. Mtking (edits) 10:52, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support TBH, the usage of the pipe-link (adopted during the 2-yr ban) seems the best solution of all. GoodDay (talk) 13:29, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support No need to change it. It works fine as it is. If it ain't broke, don't fix it and all that. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 15:02, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support Why drag up the same old arguments that never lead to a consensus to change anything? It wastes time from constructive editing and angers many. It works as it is even if it is not ideal and there will likely never be an ideal solution. ww2censor (talk) 15:49, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. JonCTalk 18:44, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- See, when an authority just says "this is how it is", then there's no more fighting and wasting of time. If we lift the ban, then we go back to wasting time arguing and whatnot. /ƒETCHCOMMS/ 19:13, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. As nothing has changed to the situation. Keith D (talk) 20:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Can't see any different outcome emerging than the status quo. Mooretwin (talk) 22:16, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. No reason why we should change. Mabuska (talk) 11:59, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. The facts have not changed, so why would I change my mind? Djegan (talk) 18:43, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Nothing has changed. Pipelinking works. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support per Fetchcomms. — Kudu ~I/O~ 21:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Status quo is fine. Nightw 14:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. For the reasons I have already given in the poll below, I believe that the status quo is the best solution. Whatever we decide should be binding for a longish period of time. And if we can get a majority for the status quo right now without further discussion, then there is very little chance that one of the proposed alternatives will win and we can save us further excitement. Hans Adler 14:26, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Stable solution seems to be working well. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 02:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. ~Asarlaí 04:54, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support - Nothing has changed since the last time this was extensively debated and a very large poll was conducted which included many people who had not been involved in the dispute before, the poll came to a very clear conclusion. This matter has now been stable for two years compared to the mess that existed before and continuing with that stability is the best option rather than rehashing old arguments. The only time this matter needs to be reopened is if there is a constitutional change to the current makeup of the island of Ireland. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:42, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. There is no indication that there has been a significant change in the real world. Dingo1729 (talk) 02:14, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Nothing has changed. Kittybrewster ☎ 12:59, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. The situation is the same as previously. --Kwekubo (talk) 14:50, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support because 1. the situation is, as Kwekubo says, the same as previously, and 2. prolonging the prohibition is possibly the simplest way of dealing with the issue, and presumably will not itself be agreed to if consensus on the substantial issue has changed in the meantime. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 00:35, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose extending the resolution
- Oppose - there was an implication in the original resolution that the limit of the ban would be 2 years. The WP way is to then discuss the problem, not to WP:VOTE. I don't believe that the wider community would choose a vote by default. This issue needs discussion. It can be time-limited. I have suggested 6 weeks (including a binding poll at the end). It seems to me that is a very reasonable expectation. Extending the ban will only mask the issue. Discussion may actually find a lasting solution. Fmph (talk) 10:29, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. Whilst I accept that this will bring on all the usual battle-ground warriors to trot out their positions, it nevertheless remains a blatant example of avoiding a global en-commonname for an important UN-recognised nation-state and EU member in order (apparently) to satisfy a mixture of the POVs of extremely small minority opinions over-represented in Wikipedia arguments about the subject and confusion about how to handle article names in a situation where a commonname is spread across a number of possible article locations but is dominantly used in one prime context. It is plausible that sufficient active Wikipedians with a realisation of this will choose to involve themselves this time to sort the problem out. Then, hey-ho, on to China! Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:18, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, as I oppose the need for any sort of gag restriction on project participants. Discussion of the naming of the two articles and disambiguation page should be open and free, or in other words unrestricted in perpetuity. This ban on discussion has served the purpose of exposing a severe level of immaturity in the way the en.wikipedia.org project handles contentious naming issues. The now-expired restrictions on discussion should die and not ever be reconsidered, they are in a word, silly. Consideration of any time limit on discussion is similarly described. Adopting the outright suppression of opinion as a rule never solves anything in the real world and certainly fails here; it amounts to officially pretending away differing perspectives. Sswonk (talk) 14:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, as this isn't the poll that the community !voted on a mere 10 days ago. In fact, this wasn't even a choice. The choice selected didn't have a time period of 2 years, and was to test whether to retain the status quo, or not. --HighKing (talk) 23:13, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - For two reasons: (1) Two years is ample time for an embargo. The WP process is to have open discussions, even if they are lively. Continuing to ban discussions is contrary to the WP way. (2) The China article is not about the country of China, and there was an RfC on it a month ago, and I was going to use Ireland as an example of why China should be moved, but I could not, because the current status of the Ireland article undermined my argument. I was surprised to see that Ireland was not an article about the country. So, although I am impartial on Irish politics, the current status of the Ireland article is setting a bad precedent for other WP decisions. --Noleander (talk) 00:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. The ban has expired! We should be doing RMs and discussing article title options. Instead, we are discussing whether we can vote on a proposal, that, if rejected, might allow us to discuss these issues, provided that Arbcom concurs, following further discussion, of course. I suggest a three option-RM for Republic of Ireland (RoI, Ireland, Ireland (state)). Editors can give their first and second choices. There would be a separate RM on the Ireland article in the same form (Island of Ireland, Ireland (island), Ireland). In the unlikely event that both articles are approved for the lemma "Ireland", then we'd need a tiebreaker. After that, the ban on page moves can be restored, since without one many editors seem to get anxious. Kauffner (talk) 00:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. With the ban expired it is probably time to consider options, maybe now there is consensus in support of one of those options, who knows, the only way to find out is through discussion (and straw polls). Consensus may have changed, and it seems most in line with WP policies to discuss the matter, try to build consensus, and go from there. Having the community vote to extend the ban seems like leap-frogging to me. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 02:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose It needs a structured discussion, ideally mediated through Arbcom --Snowded TALK 05:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, any such discussion will probably require hands-on mediation, but I don't see any reason to suppress the topic.--Kotniski (talk) 06:53, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose seems worthy of a structured discussion similar to that conducted on Talk:China over the last few weeks/months. I suggest listing the arguments for the different options in a table and listing what sources use the term "Ireland" to refer to. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose This issue needs to be resolved, there is no need for an extension. Tebibyte (talk) 10:46, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - very reluctantly. I agree wholeheartedly with the key "support" arguments: the status quo works reasonably well, the same old issues are going to be brought to the fore again, whatever discussion takes place will be ludicrously heated, divisive, and probably result in no consensus, and it will be a horrific waste of time that would be much better spent contributing to Wikipedia in more constructive ways. BUT as a supporter of free speech if people really want to waste their time in that way then they should be allowed to - but only for a time limited period. I would also suggest that whatever decision is made at the end of that period is binding for 5-10 years or more unless the community agrees that something significant has changed in the meantime; the last two years seem to have gone by very quickly indeed and repeating this every two years is too frequent. waggers (talk) 11:45, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. We should just see whether people can deal with this in the standard fashion now before going back to Arbcom. If it is still disruptive in a couple of months then this can be reconsidered. Personally I'd first ask for any disruptive people to be topic banned. Dmcq (talk) 15:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Further banning discussion would be completely against the basic ideals of wikipedia. 89.100.150.198 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:19, 20 September 2011 (UTC).
- Should we be allowing votes from unregisterd users? ~Asarlaí 12:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. The non-partisan consensus on China is that it should be the article for the People's Republic. That precedent is clearly applicable in this case. In a similar vein, I note that the article for the French Republic is France despite the hexagon containing two states and the article for the Italian Republic is Italy despite the boot containing three states. Arbcom should be invited to determine whether this discussion is being dominated by UK Wikipedians and whether the discussion and decision should be left to non-partisan wikipedians. --Red King (talk) 15:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. Wiki naming decisions in relation to Ireland and "British" Isles are becoming increasingly archaic and at variance with common acceptable usage. The current naming is supported for political reasons that have no place in an encyclopaedia. (And literally don't have any place in most encyclopaedias) Sarah777 (talk) 00:29, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. The status quo was not satisfactory two years ago, and it isn't satisfactory now. -- Evertype·✆ 17:21, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. Its worth another shot at a time-limited discussion (especially as a number of the most intransigent editors appear to have moved on). Once that is complete, whatever the outcome, then is the time to reimpose the resolution. Rockpocket 21:46, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. I had hoped to avoid this dispute, but it cannot be ignored forever. The objective reality is that on this issue Wikipedia is wrong. Irrespective of what the majority here say. To vote is a most inappropriate method of settling this dispute, it is simply mob rule. It does not become an encyclopaedia. The ‘status quo’ is wrong; therefore to retain the status quo is wrong. Just as the arbitration to impose the status quo two years ago was wrong. I am not optimistic that this error will now be reversed. One can but hope. If you fail then try again and if you fail, fail better. Lugnad (talk) 23:26, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. We will only discover whether consensus has changed or not through discussion. Continuing the gagging order is plain wrong. Daicaregos (talk) 13:16, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Why continue a status quo when the title Republic of Ireland clearly does not find favour with everybody? We need another debate on the issue.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:02, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose I think the options should be discussed again. I for one was not involved in the discussions two years ago, I am sure that are many others like me. A novel option would be to do a couple switch for another two years and then discuss which works best! I also believe that options such as discussed [Talk:Republic_of_Ireland#Display_title here] might be a solution to the problem. Bjmullan (talk) 16:27, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose talk about it first. Bogger (talk) 16:53, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- I prefer the status quo to Ireland and Ireland (island). It would therefore be easy for me to support this to achieve my preference. But while I think it is correct to set boundaries on the frequency at which we have this discussion, to extend a gagging order in perpetuity would undermine the legitimacy of the current solution. Let's talk about it, hopefully reach consensus, and then consider how long we should leave it before we discuss the matter again. —WFC— 15:46, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - kicking the can down the road is pointless. Snappy (talk) 19:55, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - it's a total, absolute, utter, insulting, mind-boggling farce that Ireland isn't under its proper name. Dickdock (talk) 07:55, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
- From a procedural point of view only. The resolution was for 2 years, so a discussion on whether consensus still exists should at least take place first. I don't look forward to the discussion and think it will get pretty ugly (It might end up at ArbCom again, I really would't be surprised) but the discussion should at least happen. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 20:22, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. I don't plan to get involved in the naming dispute, but clearly Wikipedia should not employ the Ostrich effect forever. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 01:13, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Discussion
- All reasonable discussion is welcomed, but simple re-hashing of old arguments is discouraged. Participants are reminded not to engage in incivility or other disruptive behaviour.
- I would consider Option G above to be a non-starter. Although the phrase "island of Ireland" is not uncommonly used, nobody lives in "island of Ireland", nobody visits "island of Ireland" and nobody's forbears came from "island of Ireland". Ghits do not determine common name, and "island of Ireland" is not a common name for the country (and yes, as many participants will know, I consider the island of Ireland to be a country). Scolaire (talk) 10:23, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Very much agree with Scolaire on this. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:03, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - this 'poll' needs to be widely advertised across the project in order to achieve real consensus. I'd suggest the same venues that were used in the last poll plus any appropriate projects or community venues which have appeared in the last 2 years or so. I don't have any in mind but maybe there are some that others would like added. Should we create a list somewhere and split the workload between us? Fmph (talk) 10:39, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree about notifying people. Somewhere in the discussion preceding the previous poll there is a list of talk pages/projects notified. If you can find a diff I would be willing to post to some of them. Scolaire (talk) 10:45, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Found it - here - but it's crazy long! I have notified IMOS, WikiProject Ireland, WikiProject Northern Ireland, Talk:British Isles, Talk:Ireland, Talk:Republic of Ireland and Talk:Ireland (disambiguation). That's as much as I'm doing. Scolaire (talk) 11:24, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- I've added it to WP:CENT also. --RA (talk) 11:39, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- I've done everything on that list except the last one - Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ireland_Collaboration#Member_list - if someone else could take that on I'd appreciate it. We wouldn't want any "I didn't know!" issues later. Fmph (talk) 20:39, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Leaving the 3 articles-in-question in their current name & continuing with the pipe-link usage throughout the 'pedia, seems the least dramatic route. GoodDay (talk) 14:50, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Northern. Find it. What are the most significant things about Ireland? I have two answers. Where is the reflection of that? If there is no interest in reflecting that, we have an excellent indication of flaw and inadequacy. If you can make it your business to keep ignoring that, this discussion and any outcome from it will lack basic validity all the way through, and I will always be right. ~ R.T.G 18:03, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Rather than closing the door - which I would vote for if the current options were the only ones - perhaps *brand new* solutions should be allowed and even encouraged? And Scolaire is right about Plan G. Angus McLellan (Talk) 20:47, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Comment - I find it difficult to believe that this poll was opened in Good Faith, as it wasn't even an option on the community poll held 10 days ago. It's an example of a certain group of editors (or editor) acting in the same way we've seen 2 years ago - it causes division and ups the ante on disruption - which is exactly the disruption that Arbcom is most likely to sanction. --HighKing (talk) 23:17, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Consensus cannot stop discussions - A Talk page poll cannot ban subsequent discussions & proposals. Only the Arbcom can do that. Even if 50 editors here were to unanimously agree to ban Move discussions for a further two years, another editor can pop up a couple of months from now and sucessfully challenge that ban (see WP:Consensus can change). Consensus cannot override WP policy, and WP policy is that editors can discuss renaming articles. If editors wish to extend the ban, the best avenue would be to ask the Arbcom to extend it: then it would have some teeth. --Noleander (talk) 01:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- seconded Take it to ArbCom is you want an extension, a community consensus cannot ban a regular process.--Cerejota (talk) 01:51, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- It was, see here, ArbCom sent it back here. Mtking (edits) 01:58, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- They said they are watching and seeing, not that the result will be law. There is a difference...--Cerejota (talk) 02:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- [edit conflict] Hmmm. That Arbcom clarification request is rather vague. It does not say "Arbcom will extend ban 2 years"; nor does it say "Arbcom will extend 2 years, provided the extension gets a majority vote in a poll on the Talk". In fact, that clarification request does not even focus on extending the ban, it just vaguely asks "what happens now that the first two year period is over?". The Arbcom, in reply, says: "Discuss it on the Talk page, and the Arbcom will monitor that and perhaps decide to do something (or not)". So this Talk page discussion is really about providing more input to Arbcom so they can decide to extend the ban, or not. Bottom line: it is still true that only Arbcom can extend the ban. --Noleander (talk) 02:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- It was, see here, ArbCom sent it back here. Mtking (edits) 01:58, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- seconded Take it to ArbCom is you want an extension, a community consensus cannot ban a regular process.--Cerejota (talk) 01:51, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
In hindsight, I believe we asked the wrong quetion. To those who followed the rather desultory discussion on this page the question made perfect sense; to anybody coming cold from the RfC or Centralized discussion page it will make no sense at all. Why just ban discussion on something for no obvious reason? I would have no problem with this RfC being closed early and the project members (minus me this time) working on an alternative. Scolaire (talk) 07:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's obvious that Northern Ireland has been overlooked in what has already become page after page of tirade. If people don't think it significant they must be idiots. Sorry. I'm absolutely right here. It doesn't seem to have been even thought about and shows not only a vast gulf in culture and awareness, but faliure to rcognise that gulf as significant. Ireland is a place where you will find Northern Ireland. It shouldn't matter if people percieve themselves as Irish. In the time since the last discussions on this point I have watched numerous documentaries and studies, some broadcast on RTE showing us that people of Ireland and Britain are more closely related through genetics than they are to any other groups. That goes for Irelands Catelonian genetic heritage and Britains non-celtic heritage. It's there. The people are one of it. I am not talking about hunting down the Northern Irish for their *opinions*. No consideration is given at all here or before to the fact that they and it are woven in to this fabric. There are sufficient sources to debate what is right or wrong. This is not politics. We do not need people who make the best noise. We need research and development. Anything short of that is farcical. I want to see the opinions, but they will count for naught with me without proper examination. Every person with something strong to say should roll in on this or they should roll on. There is an elephant in the room and he wants TWO sugars, without any trouble, please. ~ R.T.G 12:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Closure
can I suggest that this poll should be closed now with no consensus. That would leave the second poll and other discussions still active below. Just a bit of obvious housekeeping IMHO. This is not going anywhere now. Fmph (talk) 19:37, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
- Close it. GoodDay (talk) 19:42, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with closing it, and not necessarily as "no consensus". On the strength of the arguments it may well be considered a win for "oppose". Scolaire (talk) 23:37, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
- Majority doesn't equal WP:Consensus. Fmph (talk) 06:15, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with closing it, and not necessarily as "no consensus". On the strength of the arguments it may well be considered a win for "oppose". Scolaire (talk) 23:37, 1 October 2011 (UTC)
- There's no consensus to extend the gag order. GoodDay (talk) 17:14, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Would an uninvolved admin close the discussion? Thanks, Cunard (talk) 22:42, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Poll to see if people want to retain the status quo.
This is a poll, as agreed above, to test consensus to retain the status quo on the naming of the Ireland and Republic of Ireland articles, for another yet-to-be-agreed period of time, or to consider other options. People are free to change their minds during the poll. I suggest the poll closes on midnight 30th September, or when 24hours pass with no further !votes made, whichever is soonest. Please do not comment in the support or oppose sections - use the comment section further down. --HighKing (talk) 09:24, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Support retaining the status quo
- Support retaining the status quo. I don't see a consensus to change yet although Option G above has some merit. --HighKing (talk) 23:31, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support retaining the status quo. Mtking (edits) 02:00, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support It satisfies Wikipedia:Article titles and Wikipedia:Disambiguation. In particular, see disambiguating broad concepts. In this instance, Ireland is the broad concept. The Republic of Ireland (and Northern Ireland) flow from that and only occupies a small subset of that topic. There is a tendency to see states and politics as definitive in these topics areas. It is not. This is a general encyclopedia, topics such as the arts, history, geography, religion, culutre, and so on are as just as definitive. The distinction between Ireland/Republic of Ireland is also a natural one. Its use in the MOS has consensus and makes sense. Ultimately though, the current system works. It developed naturally from the original Ireland article in 2002. Any new proposal is asking us to accept a pig in a poke. It's an unknown, whereas the current arrangement works, even if some editors are (for whatever reason) grated upon by the title Republic of Ireland. --RA (talk) 08:19, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support Current system works best at the moment in my opinion. Mabuska (talk) 11:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support, again. JonCTalk 11:32, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support, let the pipe-links do the job. GoodDay (talk) 12:29, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support, I don't see the sense in implying Northern Ireland to be within the republic when it is not, and a few other things. I didn't say I wouldn't like Northern Ireland to be part of the republic or something like that. It's extremely important to watch that the "something like that" option remains apparent. There will always be significant relations between the north and south in this regard bar some currently inconsequential or hypothetical occurence. We have all voted our sovereignty away (or had it manipulated and extracted if you don't like the wool). In any case, the sovereign state should not gain creedence for being a sovereign state and nothing more if there are other considerations. The sovereign state, like the bible, is not God, or Jesus, or the Holy Roman Empire. We need to be able to know that. That's not a bad reflection on the state, it's a GOOD REFLECTION UPON THAT WHICH BEARS ITS WEIGHT. Please, reflect kindly on us all. I find it as important as anything else. ~ R.T.G 12:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Incredibly, RTG has said something that I agree with! The "sovereign state" should not be the primary meaning by virtue of the fact that it is a sovereign state and nothing more. There are other considerations. Scolaire (talk) 13:13, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. I haven't seen a better solution. Also I suspect most people who type in Ireland are more interested in their holidays or the island as a whole as where their ancestors came from rather than the politics, and if they are interested in the politics that'll be more about Northern Ireland than the differences between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. I guess a lot might also type 'economy Ireland' unfortunately but that wouldn't go to one of these either. Dmcq (talk) 15:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- There are differences between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:41, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. The facts have not changed, so why would I change my mind? Djegan (talk) 18:45, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Nothing has changed. Pipelinking works. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Not because I am not keen on another discussion, but because I think the status quo is the best solution. (1) The island is the more general concept, of which the two countries can be regarded as subtopics. (2) "Republic of Ireland" is a much more natural disambiguator than "Island of Ireland" or "Ireland (island)", and it's the one used in the real world. (3) The state's name "Ireland" expresses a claim to the entire island. The only way to consider "Republic of Ireland" to be defensive would be if you support this claim. Per NPOV, that's not the kind of position we should go out of our way to support. Hans Adler 21:50, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Nothing has changed in the last couple of years. While I´ve no objection to an Ireland (state) article, I believe ROI to be the best dab. Valenciano (talk) 15:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support retaining the staus quo. Ivor Stoughton (talk) 02:33, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. ~Asarlaí 04:55, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Have we not already had this poll above? Mooretwin (talk) 11:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support The status quo is the fairest and most stable option. There are no new arguments to justify a change. BritishWatcher (talk) 12:47, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support On the two key questions I haven't seen anything convincing that the state is overwhelmingly meant over the island when someone says "Ireland" - most usage does not stop to specify or need to - and a natural disambiguator is preferable to parenthesis, especially when it's one used by the state itself and the main objections to using it put forward last time boiled down to "Some Wikpedia editors don't like it". Timrollpickering (talk) 10:46, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- While I agree with almost everything else you've said, I dont think its fair to characterise those that oppose the use of RoI of just not liking it. Opposition is much more fundamental than that. It really fails WP:POVTITLE and WP:NDESC in many people's eyes, and WP:AGF really requires us to accept the legitimacy of the POV.Fmph (talk) 11:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- During the poll two years ago the precise question was put and the answers given were rooted precisely in some editors being opposed to using the term. This contemporary comment (from an Irish editor) sums it up well:
I have yet to see a simple and clear statement from any of the opponents of RoI which plausibly explains why it is so unacceptable. There are subsidiary arguments, such as the fact the 1948 Act makes RoI the description, not the name ... but that's a technical point which evades the core problem of RoI-opponents, viz. that they find it offensive. This has puzzled me throughout, and it has been the elephant in the room throughout the process: the central question which has never been adequately addressed. If those opposed to RoI had addressed this directly instead of shielding behind technical arguments, we might have gotten a deeper understanding of each other's positions. But that didn't happen, so we are where we are...
Now there are other arguments about but frankly those were not really put and/or they weren't addressing the counter points (mainly use by the government of the state). When the main argument put forward on this specific point was rooted in preventing disruption it naturally did not sway editors who might otherwise have been persuaded to switch their support. Timrollpickering (talk) 12:21, 22 September 2011 (UTC)- I read the same arguments and discussions (on both sides) and I understood why some people found it offensive. It was only recently that I understood that WP allows for this in both WP:POVTITLE and WP:NDESC. I wasn't aware of that last time. That doesn't mean that those editors who found it offensive, but were unaware of WP:POVTITLE and WP:NDESC were making invalid points. They weren't. They just did not know their way around WP sufficiently to be aware of these 2 guideline points. They found it offensive then, They find it offensive now. That is acceptable and is allowed for under those two guidelines. It's not because they just don't like it.Fmph (talk) 14:24, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- During the poll two years ago the precise question was put and the answers given were rooted precisely in some editors being opposed to using the term. This contemporary comment (from an Irish editor) sums it up well:
- While I agree with almost everything else you've said, I dont think its fair to characterise those that oppose the use of RoI of just not liking it. Opposition is much more fundamental than that. It really fails WP:POVTITLE and WP:NDESC in many people's eyes, and WP:AGF really requires us to accept the legitimacy of the POV.Fmph (talk) 11:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Status quo is fine. Nightw 12:11, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. Status quo is fine. Kittybrewster ☎ 13:05, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support - We are not required to use the strict, legal title when naming articles; hence South Korea, for example. "Republic of Ireland" is a good natural disambiguator, and is widely used by Irish people and by the Irish government whenever it is necessary to distinguish between the state and the island. I really don't think there's any controversy about it other than on Wikipedia. Iota (talk) 11:08, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
- Some support. I support the status quo as regards Ireland but I'm otherwise agnostic as regards the naming of the article currently at Republic of Ireland. Angus McLellan (Talk) 21:28, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
- Partly because the alternative name of Ireland would be to use Ireland (island) or Island of Ireland. Partly because the Irish constitution recognises as a second choice and international usage tends to favour Republic of Ireland. Notwithstanding that, surely those who regard or would like the entire island to be one country would want Ireland to discuss the history, demographics etc of the entire island? For those reasons, I think the status quo comes as close to balancing the conflicting views as we are likely to come. —WFC— 16:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)
- Support. But how and when do we agree on the period of time involved? Oh, and in deference to the instructions above, I have placed my lengthy and eloquent comments down below those other comments forcibly moved down from the votes of those not deferring to the instructions, although I am not sure whether anyone will see them there. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:07, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose retaining the status quo
- Given that we're generously told that we're allowed to change our minds, I'll state my starting preference: Ireland (island) and Ireland (country). With Ireland itself redirected to whichever of them turns out to be the more popular article (but with links to that title being repaired as if it were a dab page). [And with the possibility of these articles being a standard-bearer for the idea, once floated before, of treating disambiguators as subtitles rather than a full part of the title, i.e. displaying them in smaller type next to or beneath the actual title.]--Kotniski (talk) 07:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose I am here to officially and cheerfully oppose the continuation of the current naming scheme or "status quo". I will continue the good feeling with thoughts in the "Comments" section below; there, I will offer a detailed explanation of why I feel the name, or title, of the article about the nation which became independent in 1922 and adopted its present constitution in 1937 should be Ireland and the title of the article about the geographical physical body of land should be the one with the disambiguation added, as Ireland (island). This was known as option B when a vote was taken here in 2009, and it polled fourth in that STV-system poll. But, I feel it will prevail in time. (addendum) Ireland should always be the title of an article, be it the island or the state; Ireland (state) is my preference if the island retains the concise title. Sswonk (talk) 03:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC), statement revised 03:04, 25 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose I recommend articles titles of Ireland (island) and Ireland (republic). The term Ireland would initially be a DAB and would be retargeted when relevant page view stats became available. Two problems with the current setup: Titling the island article as simply "Ireland" goes against the practice of other reference books and causes readers who are seeking the article about the Republic to selected a sub-optimal article. Titling the article about the Republic as "Republic of Ireland" misleads readers into thinking that this is a long-form official name. Kauffner (talk) 07:27, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. The status quo on China is about to/has change(d) and exactly the same arguments apply here. --Red King (talk) 15:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. The current naming policies are re Ireland and "British" Isles are increasingly a situation supported by a pov which, thought a majority on En Wiki (where so many Irish editors previously engaged on the topic have left or been banned) is, in fact, a tiny out-of-touch minority in the real world. Sarah777 (talk) 00:35, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. The article at Ireland should be abut the island, the article about the state should be at Ireland (state), and Ireland (disambiguation) should remain unchanged. In fact, why not re-run the whole poll? -- Evertype·✆ 17:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. My preference would be something along the lines of Ireland and Ireland (island), details of which could be decided at the end of the discussion. ★KEYS★ (talk) 22:49, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
Oppose. My preference is Ireland (island) and Ireland (republic).Malke 2010 (talk) 02:42, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. Nobody from Ireland, when asked his or her place of origin, ever answers Republic of Ireland. Just plain, unadorned Ireland is the normal response that is given. The article which is currently saddled with the cumbersome ROI should be renamed Ireland (country). State might confuse readers. --Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 07:17, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- If you were in a position where you needed to make the distinction that you were from the republic, that is the term you would use, not "I'm from Ireland, but not the north. (or island)" You'd say, "I am from the Republic of Ireland," or "The South," or something that matches. Obviously you are not familiar with such a situation. How do you reason the same opinion without claiming you have no care or requisite to distinguish, and if that be the case, if you do not need to distinguish, aren't you claiming to be from the island when you answer "from Ireland"? It is not for me to detract from a wish to be distinguished as from the republic. It is for me to detract when a claim of a northerner being from Ireland is made less clear than I assume it naturally should be. I find refusal to acknowledge this to be selfish and witholding in respect to Irelands northerners. I've read your user page a long time ago as I recall, and don't recall attributing you as such so I'd even fancy bringing this to your attention to see what you might say because the northerner should have every chance to be from "plain, unadorned Ireland" in my view and no quarter should be given to any person from any state to cast a shadow of doubt upon that for any reason. It's what we call a birthright. It amazes me that this debate does not provoke outrage from many northerners, but their silence here cannot cast doubt on the fact that the large number of people in the north who find it important to identify as Irish rightfully, and harmlessly, are given every... what's the word? It's protected by our laws no matter what part of the island you are from. It's a fact of life Miss and I do not see how you, or anyone, can justify denying that. Again, I'd like you to try including the relevance of the northerners birthright, even by claiming it to be irrelevant. ~ R.T.G 22:51, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Jeanne Boleyne that, in general, "[n]obody from Ireland, when asked his or her place of origin, ever answers Republic of Ireland", but some do answer Northern Ireland and those who don't often immediately get asked whether they are from 'northern Ireland or southern Ireland'. At least the latter is my experience, and I can't say I like it given that I'm a proud native of eastern Ireland. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 02:49, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- If you were in a position where you needed to make the distinction that you were from the republic, that is the term you would use, not "I'm from Ireland, but not the north. (or island)" You'd say, "I am from the Republic of Ireland," or "The South," or something that matches. Obviously you are not familiar with such a situation. How do you reason the same opinion without claiming you have no care or requisite to distinguish, and if that be the case, if you do not need to distinguish, aren't you claiming to be from the island when you answer "from Ireland"? It is not for me to detract from a wish to be distinguished as from the republic. It is for me to detract when a claim of a northerner being from Ireland is made less clear than I assume it naturally should be. I find refusal to acknowledge this to be selfish and witholding in respect to Irelands northerners. I've read your user page a long time ago as I recall, and don't recall attributing you as such so I'd even fancy bringing this to your attention to see what you might say because the northerner should have every chance to be from "plain, unadorned Ireland" in my view and no quarter should be given to any person from any state to cast a shadow of doubt upon that for any reason. It's what we call a birthright. It amazes me that this debate does not provoke outrage from many northerners, but their silence here cannot cast doubt on the fact that the large number of people in the north who find it important to identify as Irish rightfully, and harmlessly, are given every... what's the word? It's protected by our laws no matter what part of the island you are from. It's a fact of life Miss and I do not see how you, or anyone, can justify denying that. Again, I'd like you to try including the relevance of the northerners birthright, even by claiming it to be irrelevant. ~ R.T.G 22:51, 29 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. Agree w/Jeanne Boleyn. I'm amending my preference to Ireland (island) and Ireland (country). Malke 2010 (talk) 16:53, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. The internationally accepted name of the state named Ireland is Ireland. This is an indisputable fact, no matter how many British people falsely claim that the state is named the "Irish Republic". It is only the prejudices of British people which is refusing to recognise or accept this. This is patently an absurd situation that such people can determine the name of this article on Wikipedia. If we are to seek a fair solution to all it would be something like 'Ireland (state)' and 'Ireland (country)'. 109.77.9.3 (talk) 20:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Nobody here, is suggesting the country article title be moved to Irish Republic. Also, I'm in favour of the status-quo & I'm not British. GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- From the number of times the British media refer to the internationally recognised state named Ireland as "Irish Republic", I would not be surprised if they wanted to institutionalise their ignorance and name the state properly called Ireland as the "Irish Republic". As for the country of Ireland, even they cannot claim that to be synonymous with "Irish Republic", considering they are still ruling 6 of the 32 counties of the country named Ireland. Also, for somebody who's not British you seem to have a very unhealthy love affair going on with Britain and defending British names for places beyond Britain regardless of the feelings of the indigenous population - "British Isles"? 109.77.9.3 (talk) 22:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Nobody here, is suggesting the country article title be moved to Irish Republic. Also, I'm in favour of the status-quo & I'm not British. GoodDay (talk) 20:15, 5 October 2011 (UTC)
- Interesting contradictions. You appear to be acknowleding that the country of Ireland is more than 26 counties, yet are supporting the designation of those 26 counties as "Ireland". Mooretwin (talk) 08:52, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
- The British Isles are named after the indigenous (Celtic) Britons, not the British state which has only existed since 1707. JonCTalk 10:02, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments
- Comments - I'm starting the poll that was actually agreed to as "Option 5" above, rather than the version above which wasn't even an option. --HighKing (talk) 23:31, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Isn't this poll redundant with the RfC immediately above? Or is there some subtle difference I'm missing? I ask because uninvolved editors (such as myself) that monitor RfCs are likely to repsond to the RfC above, but may not see this poll. --Noleander (talk) 00:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Good question. If you scroll up to about here you'll see that the community discussed what to do on Sept 18th, and the agreed next step was to have a simple poll to see if there was a consensus to change - i.e. Retail the status quo. There was a suggestion to introduce a time period or to extend the Arbcom ban, but this isn't what was selected as a choice. It seems now that there's a group of pro-status-quo editors who want to shut down any discussions or options, and introduce another 2 year ban. There's absolutely no reason for it. I find it amusing though, that republicans and loyalists have at least found something they agree on, even if its for wildly different reasons. But as a tactic, it's poor form and doesn't serve the project. Hopefully the wider community will see this tactic for what it is. --HighKing (talk) 00:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, I see that the RfC to extend the moratorium is slightly different from the poll, which is simply asking to leave things as-is (or not). But what good is such a poll? Even if the poll !votes to retain the status quo, after a month goes by, anyone can suggest a new proposal, relying on the WP dictum that "consensus can change". The only way the poll's results could have some longevity is if it contains a duration of some sorts, which is what the RfC includes. Anyway, I guess there is no problem with having both the poll and RfC, but it seems a bit confusing. --Noleander (talk)
- As far as I was aware, the idea was to formulate an extremely light-weight and quick way to test consensus rather than rehash the discussions which most of the older participants are already very familiar with. If consensus is tested, and status quo remains, then the community could decide to desist from discussing name changes for a period of time (which I wouldn't imagine would be for 2 years), and to even create a page containing the "arguments" for each "option" so that editors wouldn't have to rehash the same stuff over and over, but could simply consider new arguments. Then, if consensus changes, we discuss options. --HighKing (talk) 00:42, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. It would be sensible, assuming it does come back for more "discussion", for people to put effort into neatly summarising the main alternatives and their pros and cons in table form and if this work has already been done, recovering it from the archives, rather than numerous pointless rehashes of the debate in unstructured ways. The table of pros and cons at Talk:China#Pro-Con_table is a good example of how to manage it better. Then people can look at a definitive list of the alternates. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:25, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- As far as I was aware, the idea was to formulate an extremely light-weight and quick way to test consensus rather than rehash the discussions which most of the older participants are already very familiar with. If consensus is tested, and status quo remains, then the community could decide to desist from discussing name changes for a period of time (which I wouldn't imagine would be for 2 years), and to even create a page containing the "arguments" for each "option" so that editors wouldn't have to rehash the same stuff over and over, but could simply consider new arguments. Then, if consensus changes, we discuss options. --HighKing (talk) 00:42, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, I see that the RfC to extend the moratorium is slightly different from the poll, which is simply asking to leave things as-is (or not). But what good is such a poll? Even if the poll !votes to retain the status quo, after a month goes by, anyone can suggest a new proposal, relying on the WP dictum that "consensus can change". The only way the poll's results could have some longevity is if it contains a duration of some sorts, which is what the RfC includes. Anyway, I guess there is no problem with having both the poll and RfC, but it seems a bit confusing. --Noleander (talk)
- Good question. If you scroll up to about here you'll see that the community discussed what to do on Sept 18th, and the agreed next step was to have a simple poll to see if there was a consensus to change - i.e. Retail the status quo. There was a suggestion to introduce a time period or to extend the Arbcom ban, but this isn't what was selected as a choice. It seems now that there's a group of pro-status-quo editors who want to shut down any discussions or options, and introduce another 2 year ban. There's absolutely no reason for it. I find it amusing though, that republicans and loyalists have at least found something they agree on, even if its for wildly different reasons. But as a tactic, it's poor form and doesn't serve the project. Hopefully the wider community will see this tactic for what it is. --HighKing (talk) 00:16, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Isn't this poll redundant with the RfC immediately above? Or is there some subtle difference I'm missing? I ask because uninvolved editors (such as myself) that monitor RfCs are likely to repsond to the RfC above, but may not see this poll. --Noleander (talk) 00:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Since maintaining the status quo is always the default, conducting a poll to maintain the status quo is confusing, illogical, and not productive. I recommend this poll be collapsed. After reading HighKing's response to Noleander above, I think I understand the purpose of the poll better. It is clear to me that this process needs strong moderation currently. I do not have a position on article naming but would just like to see a process which is orderly enough that outsiders have a fighting chance of understanding what is going on and participating. - Metal lunchbox (talk) 02:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- It is always humbling to see someone say something with 1/4 the number of words I used :-) --Noleander (talk) 02:09, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- This has become confusing. That's 2 Polls within hours of each other. GoodDay (talk) 03:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Did you read the explanation above? Still confused? --HighKing (talk) 11:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I didn't find this actual page confusing, but I found GoodDay's comment confused me. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:19, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Did you read the explanation above? Still confused? --HighKing (talk) 11:05, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- comment - I neither support nor oppose retaining the status quo, so long as doing so is a result of reasonable and full discussions. Fmph (talk) 10:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- The format whereby everybody lays into a single thread, banging on with the same pros and cons, doesn't work. The issue is far too complex and some editors move faster with discussions than others, etc, so it ends up a mess. Far better, I believe, if separate pages somewhere are created where the arguments for and against can be distilled and sharpened. Editors can add pros and cons to each idea - whatever works. I'd say that one "side" keeps away from the other "side" - they can develop counter arguments on their own "page". New ideas can end up at each page - so for example, your Option G could get kicked around, or RA's suggestion. If, as a result, consensus gets retested and the poll to retain the status quo fails, full discussions can take place based on the arguments presented and distilled - perhaps heavily moderated. Like the way your Option G was created, sometimes some peace and quiet is needed, and not the yammering masses trying to out-shout one another. This way, the "sides" are kept apart so that everybody can have their say, and arguments can be easily weighed by anyone not familiar with the topic. --HighKing (talk) 13:14, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
Commentary moved from poll section above
- Given that we're generously told that we're allowed to change our minds, I'll state my starting preference: Ireland (island) and Ireland (country). With Ireland itself redirected to whichever of them turns out to be the more popular article (but with links to that title being repaired as if it were a dab page). [And with the possibility of these articles being a standard-bearer for the idea, once floated before, of treating disambiguators as subtitles rather than a full part of the title, i.e. displaying them in smaller type next to or beneath the actual title.]--Kotniski (talk) 07:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- This doesn't address the nub of what you propose (which isn't bad) but, on a pedantic point, which Ireland is the "country"? Both Ireland's are, even in the present tense, called a country. One being a country like the UK is a country, the other being a country like Scotland is a country. And from many perspectives - historically, of course, but also ethnic and cultural perspectives - only one is definitively the country. --RA (talk) 08:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I suspect that, at least in an encyclopedic register, "country" would be understood by everyone to have the first meaning. (But as I say, I'm willing to change my mind if persuaded.)--Kotniski (talk) 08:53, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Ireland (state) was a flyer before. I don't necessarily oppose an Ireland / Ireland (state) arrangement. That keeps the broad concept arrangement for disambiguation, which is what I believe is important to maintain. --RA (talk) 09:33, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I suspect that, at least in an encyclopedic register, "country" would be understood by everyone to have the first meaning. (But as I say, I'm willing to change my mind if persuaded.)--Kotniski (talk) 08:53, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- This doesn't address the nub of what you propose (which isn't bad) but, on a pedantic point, which Ireland is the "country"? Both Ireland's are, even in the present tense, called a country. One being a country like the UK is a country, the other being a country like Scotland is a country. And from many perspectives - historically, of course, but also ethnic and cultural perspectives - only one is definitively the country. --RA (talk) 08:03, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Fails Recognisability, Naturalness and Conciseness, IMHO. Fmph (talk) 11:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly for "naturalness" (in my opinion), which is why I prefer Ireland / Republic of Ireland. --RA (talk) 11:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- To me, the problem with the current setup is the island article has a title that confuses readers into thinking that it is about the Republic. We should always put the reader before politics, especially political views that are now outside the mainstream, both in Ireland and in Britain. Kauffner (talk) 12:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- The island article is about Ireland. Your confusion arises from the misconception that any reference to a place is political by default. The reader that you're rightly concerned about is interested in the place called Ireland. Those who want to know about politics, law, institutions etc. in the 26 counties go to the Republic of Ireland article, which is usually (and conveniently) pipelinked to "Ireland". Or, if by mischance they find themselves at the Ireland (well-known place) article, they follow the hat-note at the top of the page. Scolaire (talk) 13:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, we don't really know what topic any given reader is interested in (and often, neither does the reader). I don't really have a lot of objection to the current setup, but I understood the problem was that it implies that "Republic of Ireland" is the real name of the country (state, whatever), whereas in fact it's only a disambiguated form used decreasingly often in the real world.--Kotniski (talk) 13:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- In the world of diplomatic dispatches, maybe. In the real world, it appears in guide books, in politically-neutral articles and on cereal packets as often or more often than ever. And in the real world, nobody minds! Scolaire (talk) 13:32, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- No one is disputing that RoI is used. What Kotniski has said is that it is decreasingly used. For a start HMG don't use it as much now as they used to. So that is a measurable decrease. Decreasing usage is v accurate IMHO. Fmph (talk) 13:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- And what I said is that it is used as often or more often than ever. And what HMG uses just isn't up there in any list of criteria. Scolaire (talk) 13:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Given that HMG were a major user and now aren't, that is a significant point amongst the criteria for selection an article name, because it shows that usage is decreasing. Can you show me where usage is increasing, i.e. somehwere (other than WP) which didn't use RoI previously and now does? Fmph (talk) 13:56, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- No. Can you show me evidence of decreasing use in the real world other than government, diplomacy and politics? Scolaire (talk) 15:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Don't know how relevant it is, but I noticed in the recent BBC reports on the McGuinness standing for Irish president story, that they seemed to avoid using "Republic of Ireland", even though there was a clear potential for ambiguity (with him being a Northern Irish politician and all).--Kotniski (talk) 16:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- BBC says "Irish Republic" here. CNN and the Telegraph both use "Republic of Ireland". But actually the point I was making is that outside politics ROI is as much used as ever e.g. "ROI customers write to this address..." on the cereal packet. And nobody ever boycotts Kellogg's for saying that. Scolaire (talk) 17:11, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I presume we have higher aspirations than to imitate cereal packets ;) But my preference against RoI isn't based on any political motivation - it just seems to me that we should take a more rigorous approach to our article titles: if Ireland is both the common and the official name for the state, then we risk misinforming people if we decline to use that name (or that name followed by what is obviously a disambiguating tag) as the title for its article. RoI is aesthetically more pleasing, as it avoids the ugly brackets; but as an encyclopedia, we ought to be putting information before beauty.--Kotniski (talk) 06:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- BBC says "Irish Republic" here. CNN and the Telegraph both use "Republic of Ireland". But actually the point I was making is that outside politics ROI is as much used as ever e.g. "ROI customers write to this address..." on the cereal packet. And nobody ever boycotts Kellogg's for saying that. Scolaire (talk) 17:11, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Don't know how relevant it is, but I noticed in the recent BBC reports on the McGuinness standing for Irish president story, that they seemed to avoid using "Republic of Ireland", even though there was a clear potential for ambiguity (with him being a Northern Irish politician and all).--Kotniski (talk) 16:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- No. Can you show me evidence of decreasing use in the real world other than government, diplomacy and politics? Scolaire (talk) 15:38, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Given that HMG were a major user and now aren't, that is a significant point amongst the criteria for selection an article name, because it shows that usage is decreasing. Can you show me where usage is increasing, i.e. somehwere (other than WP) which didn't use RoI previously and now does? Fmph (talk) 13:56, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- And what I said is that it is used as often or more often than ever. And what HMG uses just isn't up there in any list of criteria. Scolaire (talk) 13:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- No one is disputing that RoI is used. What Kotniski has said is that it is decreasingly used. For a start HMG don't use it as much now as they used to. So that is a measurable decrease. Decreasing usage is v accurate IMHO. Fmph (talk) 13:34, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- In the world of diplomatic dispatches, maybe. In the real world, it appears in guide books, in politically-neutral articles and on cereal packets as often or more often than ever. And in the real world, nobody minds! Scolaire (talk) 13:32, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, we don't really know what topic any given reader is interested in (and often, neither does the reader). I don't really have a lot of objection to the current setup, but I understood the problem was that it implies that "Republic of Ireland" is the real name of the country (state, whatever), whereas in fact it's only a disambiguated form used decreasingly often in the real world.--Kotniski (talk) 13:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- The island article is about Ireland. Your confusion arises from the misconception that any reference to a place is political by default. The reader that you're rightly concerned about is interested in the place called Ireland. Those who want to know about politics, law, institutions etc. in the 26 counties go to the Republic of Ireland article, which is usually (and conveniently) pipelinked to "Ireland". Or, if by mischance they find themselves at the Ireland (well-known place) article, they follow the hat-note at the top of the page. Scolaire (talk) 13:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- To me, the problem with the current setup is the island article has a title that confuses readers into thinking that it is about the Republic. We should always put the reader before politics, especially political views that are now outside the mainstream, both in Ireland and in Britain. Kauffner (talk) 12:22, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly for "naturalness" (in my opinion), which is why I prefer Ireland / Republic of Ireland. --RA (talk) 11:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Fails Recognisability, Naturalness and Conciseness, IMHO. Fmph (talk) 11:07, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I was looking at the voting patterns from 2009 and my sense is that this is a side issue. The central issue is the primary topic for the term Ireland, i.e. should this term lead to the island, a DAB, or the Republic? Kauffner (talk) 16:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- When there are only two main subjects to disambiguate, it often doesn't matter that much if we choose a topic as primary when technically it might not ought to be. (A dab page will ensure that no-one gets to the article they want straight away; while making whichever article primary still gets about half the people to the right place, while providing a hatnote for the others that isn't any more of an inconvenience than a dab page would be.)--Kotniski (talk) 16:52, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I was looking at the voting patterns from 2009 and my sense is that this is a side issue. The central issue is the primary topic for the term Ireland, i.e. should this term lead to the island, a DAB, or the Republic? Kauffner (talk) 16:31, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I can't understand (well, I can really but AGF won't permit me to say it) why some people insist that "Republic of Ireland" is the *only* article title allowed for the article on the state.... --HighKing (talk) 13:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Some people quietly re-affirm that "Republic of Ireland" is an okay title for the article, and can't understand why other people insist it is the only title not allowed. Scolaire (talk) 13:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- It's this particular title that appears to be the root of most of the debate. I could be wrong. It's not that the title is not allowed, it's that a lot object to it. I can't speak for anybody else, but I don't have a problem using Republic of Ireland in situations described in the IMOS. It's not usage I see as the main issue, just the title. There's going to be problems with any title for sure, but a lot of the other titles *may* be less problematic. I'd like to see an alternative title - perhaps it would a good compromise. And perhaps not. I think until we have a consensus to change (review) the status quo though, there's not a lot of point in discussing. --HighKing (talk) 14:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Some people quietly re-affirm that "Republic of Ireland" is an okay title for the article, and can't understand why other people insist it is the only title not allowed. Scolaire (talk) 13:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I can't understand (well, I can really but AGF won't permit me to say it) why some people insist that "Republic of Ireland" is the *only* article title allowed for the article on the state.... --HighKing (talk) 13:27, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
"To me, the problem with the current setup is the island article has a title that confuses readers into thinking that it is about the Republic." - In fairness, if either of the two, it is the Republic that has a name that (deliberately in 1937) confuses readers into thinking that it extends across the whole island. This is not chicken or egg. The island came before the state and is by far the broader concept invovled. Subset to that is Geography of Ireland, History of Ireland, Culture of Ireland, Architecture of Ireland, Music of Ireland ... and yes, Republic of Ireland. --RA (talk) 13:48, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- That argument is one of the reasons why the article on the state shouldn't be at "Ireland". It doesn't lend itself to the argument of putting the article at "Republic of Ireland" though. Anyway :-) you can probably write the next 10 responses of arguments and rebuttals as well as I. --HighKing (talk) 14:23, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I wont' because I think that is the nub of the issue. There are two questions here that are conflated:
- Is there a primary topic or a broad-concept article? (I say, yes, the broad concept article is currently at Ireland.)
- If so, what title should we use to disambiguate another article from it (the one to do with the state of the same name as the broad concept)? (I think Republic of Ireland is natural disambiguator, but it is an open question.) --RA (talk) 16:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I wont' because I think that is the nub of the issue. There are two questions here that are conflated:
@RA Am I to understand that the Dublin government was called something other than "Ireland" prior to 1937? I don't think so. Here's some headlines: "Ireland takes her place among nations of earth", Dec. 6, 1922. "Threat of Arms Keeps Ireland Within Empire, says De Valera", Dec. 8, 1933. People automatically started calling the state "Ireland" from the moment it was created. Kauffner (talk) 15:51, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Between 1922 and 1937 the name of the state was the Irish Free State. In 1937, a new constitution was adopted and the name of the was changed to Ireland. In 1949, the state unilaterally declared itself a republic and declared that "the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland". The UK government refused to accept the 1937 name of Ireland (for obvious reasons) and called the state by its (official) Irish-language (minus the fada): Eire. In 1949, the UK government accepted the unilateral declaration of the republic and changed it's accepted name of the state to Republic of Ireland. Initially, the UK was not alone in it's rejection of the use of the name Ireland by the state but by the 1960's was alone. Since the mid-1990s, and the entente between the two states, the UK has apparently accepted the name Ireland. Regardless of all this, the term Republic of Ireland is used uncontroversially in Ireland as well as elsewhere (see my postage stamp conundrum above).
- All of this is beside the point, however, and only muddies the water. Nobody is disputing that the common name of the state is Ireland. Are you disputing that the common name of the island is Ireland? The question is disambiguation and my point is about broad concept articles and disambiguation. --RA (talk) 16:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Other encyclopedias typically have an article entitled "Ireland" (Britannica, Encarta) or "Ireland, Republic of" (Columbia) that corresponds to our "Republic of Ireland" article. Yet our "Ireland" article is about something else. My proposal is simply that the title be changed to something that makes the topic immediately clear to reader: "Ireland (island)", "Island of Ireland", "Ireland (broad concept)" etc. I like the title "Republic of Ireland" and I am not proposing to change it. But if the Irish want another title, I do not tell them what the name of their country is. Kauffner (talk) 00:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know about Encarta, but Britannica has only one article - for the land and the state - which is called "Ireland". It's like Cyprus on Wikipedia. Climate, people, culture etc. in that article is pretty well applicable to the whole country, and the history section deals with the whole country (taking in e.g. the Orange Order). If people wanted to merge the two articles on WP I would be all in favour of that; in fact I argued for it two years ago. I can't see it winning a consensus, though. By the way, I am one of several Irish (as in from-the-south Irish) Wikipedians who don't want another title, so thank you for not telling me what the name of my country is. Scolaire (talk) 10:03, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Other encyclopedias typically have an article entitled "Ireland" (Britannica, Encarta) or "Ireland, Republic of" (Columbia) that corresponds to our "Republic of Ireland" article. Yet our "Ireland" article is about something else. My proposal is simply that the title be changed to something that makes the topic immediately clear to reader: "Ireland (island)", "Island of Ireland", "Ireland (broad concept)" etc. I like the title "Republic of Ireland" and I am not proposing to change it. But if the Irish want another title, I do not tell them what the name of their country is. Kauffner (talk) 00:35, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think the "broad concept" concept is applicable here - that's for terms whose primary meaning is a broad, rather vague concept, not something specific like an island (that's from my reading of WP:DABCONCEPT and what I believe it was supposed to apply to). Just because the island is a "broader concept" than the state doesn't mean it has to be treated as primary.--Kotniski (talk) 16:58, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think a large part of the perceptual problem comes from this insistence on using the word "island", as though Ireland-the-Island was some small patch of land somewhere off the coast of Ireland-the-state. Ireland is the broad concept. It's not just a collection of mountains and rivers; it's an age-old land with an age-old civilization that happens to be partitioned for less than 90 years of its thousands of years of history. Is Newgrange primarily notable for the fact that it is in the part of Ireland that is currently governed by a Fine Gael - Labour coalition? Scolaire (talk) 21:14, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- On that kind of timescale, "Ireland" is a modern concept, just as "Britain" is - and it was divided into many small kingdoms and kingdomlets through much of recorded history and probably well into prehistory. This debate hinges on our assumptions about what best reflects the most widely used contemporary commonname word "Ireland" in the global community mind - is it the "island", the "state", or some nebulous concept of "Irelandness"? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- "Ireland-ness" is not a nebulous concept. It is a concrete thing that forms the basis of articles as diverse as Provinces of Ireland, Church of Ireland, Music of Ireland, Fauna of Ireland, Climate of Ireland, Banknotes of Ireland, Culture of Ireland, Grand Lodge of Ireland and on and on and on... It is a contemporary and firmly understood broad concept from which other concepts stem (including Republic of Ireland). --RA (talk) 22:15, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, yes, I didn't mean to imply that "Irelandness" is in some way minor or trivial, I was referencing the non-spatialness of "Irelandness" as presumably you agree with in that in many of those examples there will be material from other countries, places and times, just as there would be in the concept of "Britain-ness". Probably misusing the word "nebulous", I meant "non-specifically geo-located". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 10:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- The Irish annals from the year dot use expressions such as "never before seen in Ireland", "the best in all Ireland" and of course "king of Ireland" (whether said king could justify his claim or not). Ireland had one language and one legal system for all of recorded history until the Normans came. And the said Normans didn't set out to conquer the kingdom of the Uí Ceinnselaig, or the kingdom of Dublin, but Ireland, just as the Romans a thousand years earlier set their sights on "Hibernia", not some coastal kingdom. The mere fact that there wasn't, or mostly wasn't, a unified kingdom says nothing; there was still a (well-known) land of Ireland, just as there was a land called France in the 11th century when the king had no effective power outside his own rather small demesne. Ireland pre-1542 is no more a "non-specifically geo-located" concept that it is a "nebulous" one. Scolaire (talk) 10:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Not that recently, no, but the Irish Annals don't go back to the "year dot", they, like recorded history in Britain, extend back to a mythic Celtic past onto which later writers almost certainly overlaid the mores and concepts of their own early medieval times. Also I didn't claim there wasn't an ancient Irish identity, just that it has little to do with the modern identities, which in the case of all of the identities of these islands are largely inventions of the Early Modern and Modern periods written backwards in time by Antiquarians and Mystics. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 11:12, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- The Irish annals from the year dot use expressions such as "never before seen in Ireland", "the best in all Ireland" and of course "king of Ireland" (whether said king could justify his claim or not). Ireland had one language and one legal system for all of recorded history until the Normans came. And the said Normans didn't set out to conquer the kingdom of the Uí Ceinnselaig, or the kingdom of Dublin, but Ireland, just as the Romans a thousand years earlier set their sights on "Hibernia", not some coastal kingdom. The mere fact that there wasn't, or mostly wasn't, a unified kingdom says nothing; there was still a (well-known) land of Ireland, just as there was a land called France in the 11th century when the king had no effective power outside his own rather small demesne. Ireland pre-1542 is no more a "non-specifically geo-located" concept that it is a "nebulous" one. Scolaire (talk) 10:36, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry, yes, I didn't mean to imply that "Irelandness" is in some way minor or trivial, I was referencing the non-spatialness of "Irelandness" as presumably you agree with in that in many of those examples there will be material from other countries, places and times, just as there would be in the concept of "Britain-ness". Probably misusing the word "nebulous", I meant "non-specifically geo-located". Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 10:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- "Ireland-ness" is not a nebulous concept. It is a concrete thing that forms the basis of articles as diverse as Provinces of Ireland, Church of Ireland, Music of Ireland, Fauna of Ireland, Climate of Ireland, Banknotes of Ireland, Culture of Ireland, Grand Lodge of Ireland and on and on and on... It is a contemporary and firmly understood broad concept from which other concepts stem (including Republic of Ireland). --RA (talk) 22:15, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- On that kind of timescale, "Ireland" is a modern concept, just as "Britain" is - and it was divided into many small kingdoms and kingdomlets through much of recorded history and probably well into prehistory. This debate hinges on our assumptions about what best reflects the most widely used contemporary commonname word "Ireland" in the global community mind - is it the "island", the "state", or some nebulous concept of "Irelandness"? Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 21:36, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think a large part of the perceptual problem comes from this insistence on using the word "island", as though Ireland-the-Island was some small patch of land somewhere off the coast of Ireland-the-state. Ireland is the broad concept. It's not just a collection of mountains and rivers; it's an age-old land with an age-old civilization that happens to be partitioned for less than 90 years of its thousands of years of history. Is Newgrange primarily notable for the fact that it is in the part of Ireland that is currently governed by a Fine Gael - Labour coalition? Scolaire (talk) 21:14, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Britain is also thousands of years old. There is a modern concept of it related to the Anglicans and the British Empire. I hate to draw negativity, but we are emerging a pattern here related to the quality of knowledge possessed by those following one approach or another. That may seem personally insulting to some, but what should I call it when everything is mixed up after I was calling out, "Wait! People will mix this stuff up!". I am crying out for the evaluation page of relevant facts. All complex debate should have one required. Anything less results in multiple cases of nonsense without point of reference. We are not all chess grand masters. We can't be expected to watch ten moves at once. We need them one at a time, one after the other. Order born out of chaos. Let's make something beneficial out of all this bandwidth we've been spending. Even if it doesn't solve everything for everyone, it will make stuff easier. ~ R.T.G 22:06, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- I want to note something for those who proposed once that Republic of Ireland somehow equates to a British approach. In Britain, Britain is now the state and Great Britain is now the island. So it would follow that if in Ireland, Ireland was now the state and Blahdyblah Ireland were now the island, that would be a strictly British style approach without complex arguement to *ex-plain* why not. ~ R.T.G 22:10, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- James, seriously, it's a bit far fetched to say that "Ireland-ness" is unrelated to space or is "non-specifically geo-located". Hint: Ireland is the name of an island. When we are talking about the Culture of Ireland, we are talking about the culture of that island. When we are talking about the Climate of Ireland, we are talking about the climate of that island. When we are talking about the Banknotes of Ireland, we are talking about the banknotes of that island. And when we talk about Ireland, as a broad concept, unsurprisingly, we are talking about that island. --RA (talk) 12:05, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well the sands of this thread keep shifting about, but I think I was thinking in terms of this debate about the suggestion that we should treat "Ireland" as meaning the "island" because it has a long history as such - I was arguing that historically, "Ireland" has been a moving feast and that it may not have meant the same thing it does now and that therefore the argument that Ireland must mean the island (if based on historic or psuedo-historic grounds) does not stand up well - that arguments like that belong to a near-metaphysical view of "Irelandness" which is not always the same as anything current. In historic times for example, Irish Kings sometimes ruled over slices of what are now Scotland and Wales - did they think of those as "Ireland"? Perhaps. Could they be included in articles about "Ireland"? Perhaps. It's a complex subject. My argument is that we should focus on contemporary accepted usages and not assume primacy for past ones. I don't think in general that historic territories or conceptual territories should have primacy in article names. The same arises with China - to most modern audiences, China the contemporary state and China the place are the same thing. That's different with Ireland, I agree, but it's also close. To most modern audiences, Ireland means Ireland the country and they don't think too much about the fact that NI sits within the same concept, or if they do, they kind of conflate it with "Ireland", so that Ireland-the-island and Ireland-the-state kind of run together. As the modern state has that name and we are a modern cyclopedia, I think we should go with the modern usage. On your point itself, I do think that long-running historic places have a conceptual side to them ("Persian-ness", "China-ness") that is something different to the modern actuality, but I won't get bogged down by arguing over it as it isn't a critical point. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- The place-ness of a place has a conceptual side that is independent of modern de iure or de facto boundaries. Poland has only one article despite the fact that its boundaries have changed many many times, and there were times when it officially didn't exist. Because there's always been a place called Poland. And somebody like Casimir Markievicz was known to be "from Poland" even if it was then called the Russian empire and his estate was in what is now Ukraine. Likewise there was always a place called Ireland. But it was always in the same place! No shifting borders (till the 20th century), no official extinction. You're right that to modern readers Ireland means Ireland the country. But the country is not the state. Millions of people know of Ireland but don't even realise that it is partitioned. How many people are aware that Belfast is in Ireland and don't realise it is part of the UK? Quite a few. How many people are aware that Belfast is in the UK and believe it's not in Ireland or anything to do with Ireland? Precious few, I would imagine. Scolaire (talk) 13:07, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well the sands of this thread keep shifting about, but I think I was thinking in terms of this debate about the suggestion that we should treat "Ireland" as meaning the "island" because it has a long history as such - I was arguing that historically, "Ireland" has been a moving feast and that it may not have meant the same thing it does now and that therefore the argument that Ireland must mean the island (if based on historic or psuedo-historic grounds) does not stand up well - that arguments like that belong to a near-metaphysical view of "Irelandness" which is not always the same as anything current. In historic times for example, Irish Kings sometimes ruled over slices of what are now Scotland and Wales - did they think of those as "Ireland"? Perhaps. Could they be included in articles about "Ireland"? Perhaps. It's a complex subject. My argument is that we should focus on contemporary accepted usages and not assume primacy for past ones. I don't think in general that historic territories or conceptual territories should have primacy in article names. The same arises with China - to most modern audiences, China the contemporary state and China the place are the same thing. That's different with Ireland, I agree, but it's also close. To most modern audiences, Ireland means Ireland the country and they don't think too much about the fact that NI sits within the same concept, or if they do, they kind of conflate it with "Ireland", so that Ireland-the-island and Ireland-the-state kind of run together. As the modern state has that name and we are a modern cyclopedia, I think we should go with the modern usage. On your point itself, I do think that long-running historic places have a conceptual side to them ("Persian-ness", "China-ness") that is something different to the modern actuality, but I won't get bogged down by arguing over it as it isn't a critical point. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- James, all the above presumes that Ireland, in any other sense than the state that occupies part of Ireland, is a historical subject. I can promise you it is not. I'm standing on it. Partition may have divided it between two jurisdiction but you cannot partition dance, music, weather, sport, religion, or any number of the topics that are subsidiary to Ireland.
- What I have am been attempting to do is to show you how Ireland is a broad modern subject. Matters to do with the state that occupies a portion of Ireland is only a small subset of that - and is not terribly important. It is entirely possible to discuss topics relating to Ireland in great detail without every troubling oneself with the political arrangements to do with the topic.
- You write above how when people think of Ireland, they conflate Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That is no surprise to me. Ireland is a broad concept, for the purposes of this encyclopedia. Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland are only small portions of it and not of definitive importance to most matters to do with that subject. --RA (talk) 13:46, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Okay I have to chime in. Jamesinderbyshire, what you say about "Irish Kings" is misleading. You have, or give, the impression that Ireland had a particular lineage of royalty which would foray into other places to impose the identity and define what Ireland is or was. Negative. That is a foreign principle or custom. The most common denominator between Irish kings, after the fact that they were Irish and kings, men whatever, might be the fact that they were *not* King of Ireland. We didn't have barbarian lands where we imposed our identity on the natives. We ARE the barbarians, along with whoever else we may have become since that time. When the Vikings invaded Ireland they/we were somewhat industrious and benign. The next major invasion, was it 1000 years? It was a long time and, while water was still the main highway of the world, Ireland was naturally a major area of multi culture in Europe. Ireland was never a tyrant. No king is synonymous with what Ireland is, though many have marked it quite severely. The Irish republic is not deemed neutral because we can't find anyone who wants to fight. That would be some sort of blessing. No. It's because we were never a part of your struggle for divine blood and infinite power. We actually *are* a *neutral* culture. Kings from here with aspirations overseas were purely isolated and insignificant. You are trying to compare them to your own culture where such exploit was the major significance. It's the major thing you have going for you in that respect, just as with what we have, which is different. Invaders had a tendency to push the natives back and then assimilate with them over time. In my view it is natural development. It's in the geography and weather. We have no shortage of psychos in the mix, but we've no megalomanics. The ground just doesn't spawn them. All lines of conquest roll inwards toward a knot. I'd say the only place in Ireland where you could see straight across for ten miles is Lough Neigh. They cut a new motorway between Waterford and Dublin over the last lot of years. They cut almost a third of the distance of only about 150 miles. If you wanted two large armies to meet each other you'd nearly have to make an appointment. Indeed, when some French allies were defeated in County Cork, they'd got lost on the way to the battle. Is that not cooler than the conquest buzz? Yup yup :). ~ R.T.G 11:25, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Comment not moved from the poll section above: I think we should recognize that the real problem we are facing here, and only Fmph seems to advert to it, is that computer databases are incapable of accurately representing the real world. Given that there are in fact two possible encyclopaedic subjects both legitimately open to being called Ireland, doing so would seem to be the ideal option, and I therefore propose as a simple and elegant solution that we request the developers to modify Wikipedia so as to ensure that more than one page can have the same name (admittedly this may take some time and effort on their part, but look at how much time and effort has been spent on this issue already, and may continue to be so spent ad infinitum short of dealing with this technical problem by means of a technical solution). Pending the successful implementation of such a technical fix, we could follow the example of print dictionaries and other encyclopaedias mentioned by Fmph and place our articles at 'Ireland (1)' and 'Ireland (2)'.
- I am quite happy with the status quo, and I still don't understand why a term for the Irish state which is stated by legislation of a sovereign Irish parliament to be the 'description of the state' can be regarded as demeaning or offensive to that state by some of its citizens, yet if I have understood it correctly Irish Wikipedians who find the term objectionable on that basis seem to be one of the main forces behind requests to move both pages. Surely if the legislative status quo is so unbearable, these citizens ought to place more emphasis on engaging in political campaigning to have the Republic of Ireland Act, 1948 amended, rather than in Wikipedia campaigning to change the name of the article on the state legally so described?
- Personally, I regard Ireland as my country, not the Republic of Ireland, and find the idea of an article on the Republic that describes it as 'Ireland (country)' objectionable as well as confusing. I can readily accept that calling the article on Ireland 'Ireland (country)' may be validly objected to on the same grounds, and if bracketed addition(s) to page title(s) are required (I hope not) I strongly support using the accurate and precise legal and political term 'state'.ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 01:38, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
Expansion
- Expansion on my vote in opposition above I certainly would like to have awakened, and seen that one of my fellow editors such as RA, or Bastun, or Scolaire without-the-Fada had suddenly gone through an incredible, amazing transformation of thought and discovered what a simple thing it would be to change the article now under the title Republic of Ireland to Ireland. Then, I would look around the room for the bottle with the "DRINK ME" label attached or a hat with a price tag of ten shillings and sixpence nearby. This is for Arbcom, who I hope gain some moments of humour here: folks I don't say this often, but I really could see writing this while having ingested psilocybin, as I think many elements of it would become much clearer under the mushroom's influence. But, I am not one to ask much of people who arbitrate, that is tough business and the real reason I am here is to ask them to let this discussion go free. It deserves a long period of continued discussion and thinking, since there appears to be entrenchment far and wide. Don't lock it down, I mean no one but an administrator can move these articles, and we trust them to not wheel war over it, so just let the words flow and let people continue to get to know each other. Don't go back to the way it was before 18 September, with a tacit ban on discussion. And let the talk go on everywhere, not just in one spot where some might gain hegemony, it is after all just pixels on a screen. It isn't even loud. And no one is spilling a drink on anyone, are they? For what it takes here, to let Wikipedia find the way to conclude this, is having that conversation, not zipping it.
I thought as I was reading these pages in the weeks prior to this day that the IECOLL project, of which I am still listed as a member, had become the SQEOD project. Yes, that stands for "Status quo, end of discussion". Really looks like that is all that's left here to a large degree. If Mabuska, or R.T.G., or GoodDay one day start agreeing with me, and at that time I don't turn back to see the Cheshire Cat grinning away, it certainly will be because of continued free discussions that Wikipedia should promote and not quash.
I have been asked by someone here not to re-hash and all that. So I won't. I disagree certainly that the Ireland that calls itself that all over every page of its official website at the world representative forum called the United Nations has done so to "(express) a claim to the entire island." Certainly Mississippi does not claim the entire river, nor Australia the continent. They are just names, but the names by which those polities are known commonly both to themselves and the world. Germany and Poland, to name two, are places that have survived various stretches in different shapes and sizes, but those names are also the titles of the articles, in spite of the varied and intertwined histories, because that is how they are known to the world, at the UN and in the news. Is there some need to disambiguate previously shaped Germany from what it is now by calling the article there Federal Republic of Germany? Of course there isn't. Yes, from time to time CNN and the Telegraph have used "Republic of Ireland", and you can find links to those, but you can if you look on many other pages on those same sites, CNN and the Telegraph, find the single name Ireland used for the sovereign state. You can listen to speeches of Elizabeth II talking, and accounts of her visit last spring, with the official name used: Ireland. Ireland, just like France, Greece, Spain, other EU countries. Very simply, that is what Ireland is in 2011. The historic place, the island and other meanings can be just as gracefully handled with hatnotes and dab pages, and should be. The article with the infobox containing the harp and tricolor, with the infobox titled Ireland / Éire, should be titled Ireland. No need to re-hash beyond that, but there is also no need to be scared to discuss or contemplate that fact. The Queen certainly was able to see fit to use the proper name when she visited. It's not somehow granting the state dominion over a portion of your brain, as in a grandiose comparison to making the bible God. It is using the name as we do throughout the encyclopedia, as a name. Ireland is the proper name for the article, not Republic of Ireland. The burden of disambiguation is in the minds of some too great. I don't see it, and the vote of first preference in 2009, initially at 104 for "status quo" and 130 for something other than "status quo", shows many others can be found not to see it as well. Silencing or discouraging any opinion other than what who's left of IECOLL feels is consensus would be wrong. Thanks so much, sincerely, arbs and everyone participating, for taking the time to read this. Sswonk (talk) 05:01, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Too long, didn't read. --Scolaire (talk) 10:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Very good read... and I completely agree. Tebibyte (talk) 10:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree too, well explained. The article can be called Ireland without laying claim to NI or confusing readers about the island of Ireland, historical Ireland, etc. Jamesinderbyshire (talk) 12:39, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Very good read... and I completely agree. Tebibyte (talk) 10:33, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Too long, didn't read. --Scolaire (talk) 10:09, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- International Money and law as upheld by government. We are all coming out of the grinder. You know what I am talking about. Session and recession. I've got my feet on the ground. If you don't see what I am picking at, maybe you will. Names of Germany, every country has one. I see, "gracefully handled". The "status quo" is exactly what we have avoided here in the past. I can point that out and I can say that it is okay. Blow away state. We still remain. I am not one for utter dissent. Ireland is an island. It is there that we might find particular states. ~ R.T.G 07:29, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
Closure of page titles poll
HighKing, I am requesting that we go for closure on your poll here as well as the one above. The voting is lopsided and not likely to change much in the coming days. I don't consider it in any way binding, that is it does not end all discussion, it is informative however. The consensus would be that a majority favor no change to titles. From there, I think continued open and free discussion of these issues should be available for all here at this project, not least those who visit here for the first time after seeing a talk page notice. As part of a closure, there should be a general discouragement of future statements to the effect that it is "unproductive" or a "waste" for people to express their well-considered views. The appearance of several statements to that end here reflects poorly on those who made the remarks. Sswonk (talk) 08:10, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- The voting is lopsided and not likely to change, interesting way to describe a ~70%+ majority in favour of the status quo. The issue with continued discussions now is that only the die-hard's from both camnps will hang about now, I for one have lost interest in the rest of the discussions they are just WP:TLDR. Mtking (edits) 11:00, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- In agreement, close it down. GoodDay (talk) 13:48, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'd have to agree with the lopsided assessment. There are plenty of editors passing by and contributing to the first poll - which was notified widely cross the pedia - but not contributing to the second. I don't think it's safe to assume that everyone who arrives and votes in the first poll is necessarily aware of the second poll. Fmph (talk) 15:21, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Mabuska asked in a section below that the discussions be condensed. There is no need to keep the somewhat disorganized threads here active. I propose archiving this entire page as is, after closure of both polls, into a subpage link. For an example of how that has been done previously see Talk:Willis Tower/Move. The title "Move" is actually a redirect to an archive in numeric sequence so it does not get segregated from the other general archive pages. There is a note at the top of the page which I would be glad to compose. Trust me, I will not display bias in the note. Then, there is another note at the top of the Willis Tower article talk page that reads: The issue of the name of the building has been discussed at great length. Before starting a discussion relating to this, please ensure your point has not already been discussed. That method at once recognizes the issues and still "condenses" the previous statements through the link to the archive. I would also suggest linking to the 2009 poll and the many Statements. I might even add my own statement, say with a list of "2011 statements" link at the header of this proposed archive page. I agree, to avoid Mtking's scenario of "die-hard's from both camnps will hang about now", this should get super-closed. RMs would be fruitless as well, so basically there should be a notice saying we have got to the point of wanting to avoid votes and drama until there is any sort of bipartisan agreement. I can still oppose with vigor the article title "Republic of Ireland" without having to discuss it all the time, and there should not be any gag. RMs could probably be placed in limbo, I haven't worked out logically how they could be initiated. Everyone with an interest please comment on these suggestions. Sswonk (talk) 16:01, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- This talk page currently has 25 archives, of which the vast majority are concerned with page titles. I don't see why the current discussion should be treated differently to the previous ones. The separate "Statements" page was not the first such, or even the most exhaustive. This one here is fairly thin in comparison with the 2008-09 ones. Collating the arguments from all of the archives would be an interesting project, but not an easy one. Scolaire (talk) 21:32, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and don't forget the Ireland disambiguation task force and its talk page (and their archives). Scolaire (talk) 22:06, 2 October 2011 (UTC)
- There's a consensus to keep the status quo, atleast for now. GoodDay (talk) 17:16, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
Restored for closure by an uninvolved admin. Cunard (talk) 22:41, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
The problem: "Republic of Ireland" as the name of the state
From the discussion above, regarding the table showing titles on the top twenty Wikipedia sites by article count:
“ | I hope pointing to Republic of Ireland (term) will help you see that the term, along with Eire (the Irish name of the state without an accent over the E) and Southern Ireland to name three were names used by the U.K. governments as part of a very serious effort to dissuade other governments from officially calling the state Ireland. You may have to dig deeper, that is a starting point. Not bizarre and unsubstantiated. If you feel no objections here are serious, then I see no reason to go any further. What can I say as long as you buy the line that "It's all prattle", another argument that is truly unsubstantiated and prime for crumbling? Sswonk (talk) 14:07, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
|
” |
ComhairleContaeThirnanOg, this is my response to you, but I am also asking readers to take it into account. There is a great deal of difficult reading and thinking required here. It is not something that can be solved on Twitter, or with a few emails sent from a smart phone. I will try to answer your comment here since you have given some thought to what I wrote and I don't want to leave you to wonder about anything there.
Before your last comment, and again in part within it, you seem to express doubt that anyone has proposed or taken a position suggesting an article merger of sorts in these discussions. I have more or less done that in previous statements following my vote above. Also, Scolaire in fact had a similar position in 2009, and I am not exactly sure why he has now moved to support the "status quo" in his votes and comments here. Regardless, if you look at the 2009 poll and also the roll call of membership at WP:IECOLL#Members, you will see that arguments and page moves, and resulting animosity, admin reactions and discussion lockdown regarding the title caused many editors to leave, and in several cases leave Wikipedia entirely. IECOLL had become almost entirely the purview of supporters of the "status quo" due to the persistence of a few editors on this page. The amount of pressure to preserve the name "Republic of Ireland" against the objections of so many other now-absent editors serves as another indicator, as I wrote above, that the title is less than ideal. We have alternatives, and it should be changed, even if not to Ireland with merger.
A while ago I did purchase the journal article by Mary E. Daly via the University of Chicago Press and JSTOR. It is not yet available from my public library, which does give access to older articles in the Journal of British Studies however the cutoff date for free access is just short of 2007, when the article appeared. In time it should be available through library membership. So, I can't provide direct citations but I hope you will trust my paraphrasing and quotation. Daly indeed does cite several examples of the British government promoting the terms I mention to other governments, including much detail involving incidences of that with Canada and Australia. She cites the National Archives of the United Kingdom in writing about the diplomatic situation: "Canada duly came into line with the wishes of Buckingham Palace and the Dominion Office. The Canadian ambassador presented identical letters of credence to those presented by the British ambassador. Australia does not appear to have considered upgrading its representation in Ireland to ambassador until 1953, and by then the Fianna Fáil government was insistent that all credentials (with the possible exception of the British ambassador) should be addressed to the President of Ireland. Australia would only agree to letters giving accreditation to the Republic of Ireland or Dublin. This position was adopted on the advice of the British government, who emphasized that any reference to “Ireland” or the “President of Ireland” would be embarrassing to the British government and to Her Majesty."(p. 88). That is the type of incident I refer to, and Daly concludes by writing "Up to and including the year 1999, the Diplomatic List issued by the Foreign and Commonwealth Office referred to the Republic of Ireland. Since 2000 it has referred to Ireland, and the credentials presented by the British ambassador, Stewart Eldon, in 2003, were addressed to the President of Ireland."(p. 89).
That provides the backdrop to the thinking involved in the article naming that occurred in 2002. A couple of editors involved who "won" that debate were both U.K. residents and took a position similar to that described by Daly whereby Ireland was deemed an unacceptable name for the country. It seems as though, if that is what they were taught up until two years previous by their own government, then it certainly must have informed their judgement. The following boxed section is my response to your questions of seriousness, and of truth regarding the use of the term. Please, refrain from commenting here or within the box and use the area beyond my signature for further discussion.
Wikipedia and the false name
In the earliest days of Wikipedia, there was a heated discussion among the early editorial staff when this issue arose. The discussion occured in late November and early December of 2002. The three primary editors involved initially were:
- Renata (talk · contribs) – unnamed editor, a Scot from Edinburgh, still active on Wikipedia. Her position was that naming an article about the state "Ireland" is very offensive to those in the north, and used anecdotal evidence or hearsay to back up her statements.
- Camembert (talk · contribs) – Lee Pilich, from Doncaster, Yorkshire, no longer active but also prone to see Ireland as an unacceptable title because it could mean either the Republic or Northern Ireland, and thus "politically dodgy to say the least". His view represents that followed by the U.K. up until 1998, only four years before the discussion occurred, a view which formally discouraged the use of Ireland as the name of the state.
- Scipius (talk · contribs) – unnamed editor, a Dutch person from Maastricht. Scipius unfortunately took the view that Ireland would be the title of an article about the current state exclusively and thus was the eventual causative factor of the current situation. This is because of what happened next, which has again unfortunately guided the conversations since that time.
An example of the thread, from the middle of the most active day of the initial discussions, 17 November 2002.
Several editors began arguing against Scipius, but the two others mentioned and especially Camembert provided much of the countepoint argument for the title "Republic of Ireland". The discussion was rather heated during the first few days. An Irish nationalist editor, Jtdirl (talk · contribs), also later weighed in against using Ireland. The real decision came from Larry Sanger, at the time still very prominent at the encyclopedia he named "Wikipedia" when he co-founded it with Jimbo Wales. Larry Sanger (talk · contribs) in typical unapologetic fashion chose the scheme we now have, and in so many words told Scipius to give up trying to have an article about the state called Ireland actually have the title "Ireland". The title Camembert and Renata had used, "Republic of Ireland", was Sanger's choice. Among other reasons, Sanger cited the need to have an article about Ireland that was outside the scope of the current state, using the example of Irish music which he played.
The debate at that point became about the wrong thing, and has been hopelessly mired in the strange loop I mentioned above since that time. We ended up with a poorly thought out situation that has yet to be properly addressed. What resulted was a title for the article about the state that is incorrect and misleading, and an article into which inserting much relevant information became highly restricted. That is, the "Republic of Ireland" title refers to an entity that did not exist before 1949, let alone 1922. Yet the rest of the world outside of the class "Wikipedia editorship" treats Ireland as being inclusive of much of the history of previous formations, and Ireland the state as inheritor of the bulk of the history just as it is caretaker of the land. Limerick, Cork and Galway are still in Ireland. The Book of Kells is still in Ireland. The birthplace of James Joyce is still in Dublin, Ireland. Anyway you slice it, those sentences are all true today with the modern state as the meaning of the single word Ireland. It takes a long stretch of the imagination—and plenty of excuse making and disambiguating literary gymnastics—to make it seem as though we have to use "Republic of Ireland" in any of those cases. However, that is where the descriptive term ends up when it is used as a title for the land, country, nation, state, whatever you want to term it, the place now officially and legally called Ireland. On this highly respected map, it is Ireland. Up in the right sextant of the island itself there is the U.K. territory Northern Ireland, but the remainder is unarguably Ireland, the state. That is its name, and that is how the great majority of our outside sources will quite naturally refer to it. Here are lists of some of the most prominent organizations and entities that disagree with using the name "Republic of Ireland" when titling articles about the state. Given that the state itself is certainly involved in some of the decision making about the form of address, or title, which is used by the organizations, I think we can conclude that the state does not view "Republic of Ireland" in the same light as Larry Sanger and those early editors.
United Nations and European Union
- United Nations
- Member States of the United Nations
- The list links the name Ireland to the website of the Permanent Mission of Ireland, in New York, at http://www.irelandunnewyork.org. Using the site-specific search tag "site:" on that domain through Google reveals that none of the pages currently contain the phrase "Republic of Ireland". The search shows one link to a previous version of the page, which is no longer how the page reads. The previous version read: "The Republic of Ireland Act of 1948 provides for the description of the State as the Republic of Ireland but this provision has not changed the usage Ireland as the name of the State in the English language."
- European Union
- Countries
- Lists the member states of the union, and links to a brief article on the state. Of interest to us is the publications style guide of the union, which is found at:
- International Style Guide
- The style guide notes at the bottom of the table are clear about the disposition of the term "Republic of Ireland": NB: Do not use ‘Republic of Ireland’ nor ‘Irish Republic’.
Other international organizations
Web directories and reference publications
- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
- British Broadcasting Corporation
- Infoplease
- National Geographic Society
- Open Directory Project
- United Kingdom Foreign and Commonwealth Office
- United States Central Intelligence Agency
- United States Department of State
- WolframAlpha
- Yahoo!
British Monarchy
In May of 2011, Elizabeth II paid an official state visit to Ireland. A press release announcing her itinerary from the official website of the British Monarchy refers to the state as Ireland.
End game
Described by me as a good representative list of important websites, the information above shows no use of "Republic of Ireland" as a title nor as a phrase linking to an article. All articles referred to on the sites are entitled "Ireland" which specifically addresses the state itself. This is the expected usage in 2011 of the word Ireland, and Wikipedia stands virtually alone in its misuse of the term "Republic of Ireland" as an article title. Larry Sanger later founded Citizendium, an encyclopedia structured similarly to Wikipedia but quite different in its editorial approach. There, the article "Ireland" is a disambiguation page and the article on the state is titled "Ireland (state)". "Republic of Ireland", the description of the state that Wikipedia thinks is the name, is redirected to "Ireland (state)".I hope the response gives you an idea of the amount of thought that has gone into my objections. Many of the others here I am sure have thought about this a great deal. The most difficult presentation but in my mind the one we should work for would be to allow the title Ireland to include the state and also much of the history, as would and does an article about places like France, Germany, Greece and so on, with liberal use of article forking and hatnotes to those forks. Barring that, another solution which was offered as option D in 2009, simply renaming "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland (state)", would end the incorrect and misleading titling scheme we have now. Without question, in spite of a perceived need to disambiguate the state name, readers are being led to believe that the name of the state is "Republic of Ireland". That is being done by the title and the subsequent use of that title by mirror sites and careless journalists and writers who don't take the time to read or understand that it is not the name of the state. Given the benefit of hindsight, as a group we should not continue to allow that. Sswonk (talk) 05:27, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments at the problem
- I feel sorry for you all, and wish that the efforts above had been used instead adding to the larger encyclopedia. Surely wikipedia is an encyclopedia and not an international organisation? Many of the arguments above belong at Wikipedia:Lamest edit wars. As an encyclopedia any ambiguity must be catered for, and so I support separate -state and -island pages, even though my ancestry and affiliation is Irish nationalist. Not because separate pages comprise a wicked imperialist plot, but because we live in 2011. BTW an "Irish province of the EU" is just as likely in the next 100 years as ROI and NI were in 1911 – unthinkable, but it happened. I don't care what QE2 said during her visit, I am a native, and we island-inhabitants have had to endure the ROI and NI systems to our great cost. Ireland-the-island is a very much bigger encyclopedic subject than ROI and NI put together.Red Hurley (talk) 07:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't the foggiest why you wasted time on all that. We know Republic of Ireland isn't the name of the state, it is an officially sanctioned description of the state. What we were discussing is what the article in Wikipedia about the state should be called as there is a disambiguation problem, both the state and the island are called Ireland. It is the same sort of problem you get when two of your friends have the same name and you have to say who you are talking about, whatever you do doesn't change their actual names. Usually they will have different nicknames if they are that close and thankfully here Ireland (the state) has provided an approved nickname. The disambiguation rules in WP:DISAMBIG are more for quite different topics with the same name rather than closely related ones but if we follow them we'd put brackets after one or both Ireland's rather than saying Republic of Ireland or Island of Ireland. Since they are very closely related it's better if we can get proper titles without the brackets but deciding between the forms and which if either gets brackets or a nickname is up to the consensus here. Dmcq (talk) 09:34, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Pro-page movers, should be concentrating on the 'island' article's name. Get that changed & there'd be less resistance to changing the 'country' article's name. GoodDay (talk) 13:47, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well that definately convinced me to vote for change... nope wait, status quo still sounds as good as ever. I wonder is there as much arguement over the Hellenic Republic article, especially seeing as its title is not the official name of the state? Mabuska (talk) 18:12, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- So to summarise - while some of us have been talking about whether or not the ban on discussing page moves should be extended (consensus: no); or whether there was even a demand for a new discussion on page moves (consensus: also no), you've spent an inordinate amount of time researching and rehearsing arguments about moving moving ROI -> anything else. We've already heard the "Other wikis don't call it ROI" argument - many times. Didn't convince many, if any. We've already heard the "It's an imposition of the British!" argument. It wasn't, and the argument didn't convince many, if any. Now we appear to have a "Look, all these bodies call it Ireland!" argument. Which nobody has ever disputed. We've heard all of these arguments before, ad nauseum. I honestly suggest your time and energy would be better directed elsewhere. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 18:54, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- A clear majority only in the eyes of those who don't understand the PR system. The only banned Irish editors I'm aware of are Vintagekits and Tfz/GoldHeart (and I'm not sure the latter is Irish). Who else was there? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Analysis of the first 200 first preference votes in the Ireland article names poll showed that the proportion of "British" editors and "Irish" editors voting for "Republic of Ireland" was essentially the same (both about 50%).
- A clear majority only in the eyes of those who don't understand the PR system. The only banned Irish editors I'm aware of are Vintagekits and Tfz/GoldHeart (and I'm not sure the latter is Irish). Who else was there? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Based on the editor's self-identification with a specific country or nationality on their user pages, counting "Northern Irish" as British, and "Irish" as "Irish",
- British (55): 29 F, 26 not F
- Irish (30): 13 F, 17 not F
- Others (identified) (59): 21 F, 38 not F
- Not known (56): 22 F, 34 not F
- Total (200): 85 F, 115 not F.
- Conclusion: 53% of "British" editors vote F, and 43% of "Irish" editors do.
- Counting "Northern Irish" as "Irish", except for one editor who identifies as both British and Northern Irish:
- British (52): 26 F, 26 not F
- Irish (33): 16 F, 17 not F
- Others (identified) (59): 21 F, 38 not F
- Not known (56): 22 F, 34 not F
- Total (200): 85 F, 115 not F.
- Counting "Northern Irish" as "Irish", except for one editor who identifies as both British and Northern Irish:
- There was a question about seriousness from ComhairleContaeThirnanOg, and I did my best to answer. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg had trouble with the issues involved as seen from my perspective. This is the second time you have gathered the strength to comment about anything I have written, Bastun. Both times, you have sought to define what "we" are talking about, apparently excluding me from your definition of who is allowed to be a part of this. It was not my intention, but the reactions to what I wrote in response to questions from another editor are exposing the impatience and imperiousness of the mindset of you folks supporting the incorrect titling scheme. Your response and the responses here that say overtly that anything approaching reasons to keep a discussion going are: "lame" and something to "feel sorry" for (Red Hurley) and "wasted time" (Dmcq), well, those are your opinions. Stating that you think I am wasting time telling you in detail why your position is incorrect isn't valid debating practice. It is just saying you aren't going to listen. Extend that to what you voted for, Bastun, and it becomes what we had for two years previous: a waste of a different kind, that being forced suppression of opinion. I want readers to believe that if they have a question about the title, they can come here and find a forum for discussion. You want them to come here and be told off, to be silenced by your expressions of boredom and knowledge of how many times you've had to support your (bad) title for the article. Change the name to the "Status quo: End of Discussion" project, or find somewhere else to spread your disdain of honest discussion and serious writing. Is this a kind of "honeypot" against advocating for the proper title, or is it a real collaboration page? BTW, even though I feel kind of insulted by you fellows telling me what you think is a waste, you know, I won't go crying to AN/I as was the practice of so many others both here and absent who fought for the "status quo" in 2009. The medium is the message here, Bastun. You can't win the argument so you divert attention by calling any opposition at all a waste of time or "uncivil". Why don't you wait before you repeat that argument again? Sswonk (talk) 19:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I am way past arguing with or debating this issue with the Wiki editors who insist on inposing Anglo-pov on Ireland-related articles. China is China; regardless of the fact that Taiwan also claims to be China, or even a part of China. (Which it most certainly is). But in the weird world of Wiki's WP:NPOV we must accept that Anglo bias - thus Ireland isn't Ireland. It seems the Wiki establishment would rather scarifice Wiki's credibility than abandon British pov. Whatever. Sarah777 (talk) 20:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Lol @ "Anglo pov". Whose POV is the Hellenic Republic example Mabuska cited above? JonCTalk 20:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I am way past arguing with or debating this issue with the Wiki editors who insist on inposing Anglo-pov on Ireland-related articles. China is China; regardless of the fact that Taiwan also claims to be China, or even a part of China. (Which it most certainly is). But in the weird world of Wiki's WP:NPOV we must accept that Anglo bias - thus Ireland isn't Ireland. It seems the Wiki establishment would rather scarifice Wiki's credibility than abandon British pov. Whatever. Sarah777 (talk) 20:00, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- If you want to set up a straightforward vote about changing the title from Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state) that's fine by me but could people please leave the 'Anglos' imposition and the tl;dr posts out please. And by the way I think of that fervour about the name as something Americans do rather like they go on about the famine. Dmcq (talk) 20:37, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think a vote like that would qualify as an RM. I want to win minds, not votes. Let's avoid mob rule in this case. In honesty, I recognize that convincing many of the thoughtful people here to understand the implications—that the titles can and should be adjusted to improve our goals of maintaining neutrality and presenting valid information—is needed. Votes are like games, they only decide what is "winnable". In this case they have resulted in a less than ideal title. Readers take a great deal away from the title, it is in very large type compared to the text. Having a disclaimer that says "it is a description, not the real name" is locking the barn door after the horse has left. More than a few readers, including lazy journalists, are going to get it wrong based on seeing the title here. Wikipedia is not only virtually alone in the world on this, the en.wikipedia.org is virtually alone among the top Wikipedias. Those are valid reasons to cause even longtime supporters of the RoI title to think about moving away from it. Sswonk (talk) 01:03, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well if we want to pile on the angst about the name one of my relatives was a TD who vigorously argued against the constitution clause trying to claim all of Ireland and said it would lead to long term divisions and trouble in Northern Ireland just like it did. So I'm not too enamoured with all the politicians who kept on pushing this point. However we have the clause gone and the Good Friday Agreement and all that now which I am very pleased about so if people want it called Ireland (state) I'm not going to oppose that. Don't expect to win any hearts or minds with your arguments though. Do I care what some journalist uses for it? No I don't. I care what it is, not what it is called. Dmcq (talk) 07:15, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sswonk, you're missing my point. You're getting down into "Reasons why I am right!" - ignoring that all of those arguments have been made before, and merely inviting others to start responding with "Reasons why they are right!" Up above, people are still talking about macro issues. Something is more likely to come from that, I think, rather than your method. But don't let me stop you. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 21:05, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- I acknowledge the past, rather than ignore it. What exactly are you defining as "macro"? If you mean the "Summary table", that ignores the possibility of a merger, so it can't be addressed in any other way. Also, there was a profession that there weren't serious points being made, I had a few hours to look at the entire history beginning in 2002 so I gave it my best. Dmcq: this is in response to your request to avoid tl;dr statements: re: RoI, see Lipstick on a pig. Sswonk (talk) 21:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
- Please leave out the allegations and accusations of Anglo-bias and implied anti-Irish editor agenda. Such comments only seek to stir the pot and fester bad faith amongst us all and more than likely descend this discussion into a tedious and unnecessary battlefield. Let's keep it pleasant and based on actual proper arguements. Mabuska (talk) 21:20, 9 October 2011 (UTC)
People have overwhelmingly supported the status quo, those obsessing over the need for a name change should recognise there is currently no support for their proposals, and drop this for atleast a month or two. Then rehash the same arguments again in a few months.. but if this continues it absolutely reinforces the need for the arbcom 2 year ban to be extended. Some editors just refuse to accept the status quo. BritishWatcher (talk) 10:44, 10 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well so far i have seen nothing in the mass amount of comments taking up this talk page that has shown a shift in the general opinion. Mabuska (talk) 21:02, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sswonk, I feel privileged to have inspired such a lengthy exposition, but I am not in the least persuaded. As far as I can see, and as several other editors have pointed out above, nobody is questioning the fact that the correct name of the state is 'Ireland'. You have provided plenty of evidence to prove the point that the official name of the state is Ireland, and that that is the name officially used in international organizations as well as by the state itself. But nobody, as far as I can see, has disputed that. The problem is that we also have a country, or, if you prefer, an island, called Ireland, which has existed for a lot longer and is clearly, as disambiguation goes, the broader topic. Hence, the need for at least one of the articles to bear a different name (or, for that matter, for the articles or their content to be to some extent re-arranged, partially merged or redivided etc). I don't see how your contribution, lengthy and detailed though it is, has got us any closer to agreeing a superior way of resolving that problem than the one currently in effect.
- On another note, having grown up myself in the Republic of Ireland and lived most of my life there, I find it quite bizarre that some people seem to think that using that term represents an 'anglo perspective'. As far as I can recall, people generally disliked the terms 'Éire' and 'Southern Ireland', only the more republican would refer to it as the '26 Counties', but nobody I knew had a problem with the 'Republic of Ireland'. If we needed to differentiate the state from the country, we would refer to the former as 'the Republic', not to the latter as 'the island'. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 23:25, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- That last paragraph sums up my own position perfectly. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 23:35, 11 October 2011 (UTC)
- ComhairleContaeThirnanOg, if we are talking strictly disambiguation then the point is that it should be disambiguated as it is needed to be disambiguated, on the actual most commonly used and legal name. If you need to disambiguate two exactly the same and very heavily used "Ireland" definitions, don't permanently muddy the waters by throwing in an artificial made up non-name. Thus "Ireland (something)" for either the island or the state, or both with Ireland as a disambiguation page like on fr:Irlande or the Citizendium page. That is only if, I envision an all-Ireland article that is the most difficult but still achievable goal. It should not—repeat—not be disambiguated using the internal, myopic local disambiguator. It may cause you, RA, Bastun, Scolaire and others no problems, but it is as Jeanne Boleyn wrote many days ago not natural language. It is normal for you all to say or write "the Republic", but we can't have an article called only that. And "Republic of Ireland" has those issues I discussed, including making several other editors who commented before quite upset. Look at the page logs, it was a major point of contention. So, again, less than ideal.
- As for worrying about POV or anglo perspective, I am an American and that wouldn't rile me as much as some of the comments I've seen. However, it did rile me and will continue to rile me when it is completely denied and people who are pointing the POV out are utterly dismissed. I came at this from nearly completely outside, have never been to Ireland nor NI and I still can see that the term poses those issues. Lee Pilich ("Camembert"), for example, in his early comments in 2002 wrote: "I would, incidentally, be very surprised indeed if there was a decent map in existence which labelled the country, as opposed to the island, "Ireland" rather than "Rupublic [sic] of Ireland"." I was amazed to read that, since I have been around since the 1960s and every map that I can remember labeled the two "Ireland" and "UK" (or "NI" or "Northern Ireland"), and I looked for maps on Google image search and at the Perry-Castañeda Library Map Collection: I only found one map out of the first few dozen which fits Camembert's description, and it was from the UK military. So, as well meaning and oblivious as he and Renata might have been, if they were immersed in using OS maps and had been living in a country that until 2000 officially discouraged using Ireland as "embarrassing" and favored instead use of "Republic of Ireland", then, hey, that's an anglo (or British) bias. It certainly isn't American bias, and showing that all of the various organizations which Ireland participates in around the world don't use RoI makes it very plain that the government always uses Ireland alone. Except of course on that postal notice that some of the guys here think proves something. That is really grasping at straws if you ask me. I am thoroughly unconvinced that the "Republic of Ireland" title is the best choice, in fact I find it a remarkably poor one given all of the arguments it verifiably has caused here. Read those positions, look at those votes from 2009. There is a better way, even if it seems OK to you. Sswonk (talk) 01:13, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ultimately what I am saying in response to both Bastun and ComhairleContaeThirnanOg is that you shouldn't assume that because you are Irish and you don't find a problem with RoI, that makes it a good choice. If you walked in the shoes of others who have been part of this debate, you could also find the current title confusing and illogical, biased and insensitive, misleading and incorrect, any or all of those. There are other choices and other means. And, instead of trying to even attempt to look at it that way there are many people here who have decided against seeking alternatives, and to act as enforcers rather than encyclopedists. They choose to resist and quash discussion, and lock it away to pretend away those realities. I find it unbelievable that anybody would seriously consider extending the ridiculous discussion ban, and nearly half who stopped by here did. This website is demonstrably a complete outlier when it comes to this situation and for its defense it has chosen ignorance and malfeasance via convoluted excuse making and know-nothing intransigence. Prove to me it deserves my continued contributions. "The problem is that we also have a country, or, if you prefer, an island, called Ireland, which has existed for a lot longer and is clearly, as disambiguation goes, the broader topic." That assumes the current article structure that has been in place since the 2002 discussion I linked. That assumes Ireland is not Ireland, in other words it must be separated in two by this encyclopedia: state independent of Britain only since 1922 vs. all other iterations before. I showed a score and more of websites, both Wikipedias and otherwise, that are not in the least uncomfortable with disputing that. Ireland to them is Ireland. It is the UK portion that needs to be treated separately, but that is not a concern for the word Ireland since that area has a name of its own. Get out of the mindset that says Ireland the country is something like an area code overlay, a mere esoteric abstraction that is not legitimate possessor of the word. Once you do, then you get us "closer to agreeing a superior way of resolving that problem than the one currently in effect". Sswonk (talk) 03:02, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well the island article and the state article most definitely will not be merged so that's a complete non starter. The only reasonable choice I've seen is between Republic of Ireland and Ireland (state). My dislike of the politicians who pushed the claims to the North I've explained before and I'd like to point out the constitution with all that in didn't have that great a margin - it would have been far better if they had allowed people to vote on the separate clauses. So quoting officialdom at me isn't a great persuader. However I have no great objection to Ireland (state) if that's what people really want. Count me in with Bastun and ComhairleContaeThirnanOg. Dmcq (talk) 08:33, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sswonk, for someone who would like me, Bastún, et al to walk a mile in your shoes, you show a distinct inability to grasp the points we are making or see, not only that there are other valid points of view, but also that there are other issues involved apart from whether 'Republic of Ireland' is a good article title or not.
For example, you say 'That assumes Ireland is not Ireland, in other words it must be separated in two by this encyclopedia: state independent of Britain only since 1922 vs. all other iterations before.' I can hardly think of a better example of why you are not persuading some people! - Another point: you say 'don't permanently muddy the waters by throwing in an artificial made up non-name'. The term 'Republic of Ireland' is just as made-up as the term 'Ireland' was as a name for a state which did not control, but by adopting that name was seeking to reinforce its claim to, the entire island of Ireland. They were both artificial, legal terms which have both entered widespread use.
- Re Dmcq's point, I don't have a problem with "Ireland (state)" either, though I prefer the common description adopted in Irish legislation and used in everyday speech (what is 'the Republic' short for, if not 'the Republic of Ireland'?)...
- Anyway, I think ultimately GoodDay and Mabuska are right: a lot has been written but there has been no change in the consensus, such as it is, and certainly no consensus for change. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:35, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
- One of the problems I have here is that I keep having to defend myself against a sort of self-conscious but slightly belittling attitude, y'know like "well he's a bright Yank" with a little smirk. Feels like it anyway, maybe I could blame W. and Dick Cheney, but we won't go down that path. Anyway, I grasp I think a little more than you suspect. Here's a sentence: "The Old English (Irish: Seanghaill, meaning "old foreigners") were the descendants of the settlers who came to Ireland from Wales, Normandy, and England after the Norman invasion of Ireland in 1169–71." That's the lead of Old English (Ireland). Now mostly you and others are saying I need to get the problem with the link there to Ireland. It can't go to the article about the state, right? That's what you think I am not seeing? If so, try not to believe that I can't see that. I may not see it in the same day-in, day-out way you do, but I do understand fairly well how that is a difficult sentence, and about the "broad" Ireland topic and how linking the word there with the current article structures works. It's not that I don't understand, it's that I disagree about how you are separating the two. That's all. That's why I said in theory the "difficult article" is nevertheless attainable, it just got blown out of the water by Larry Sanger and the others as a result of the 2002 debate and the articles are entrenched at that stage even today. But Britannica can do it, and surely it is possible. I suppose it is not practical given the volume of editors and opinions in a wiki, maybe? The medium being the message, still I will push to find a way out of that hell.
- Re: not changing minds, well so far I have you and Dmcq, both whose votes are recorded up there as "status quo", both now saying you have no problem with "Ireland (state)", thereby taking a step away from your votes. I think I got a little bit different response than was there before I started wallpapering the page with the seriousness you said was lacking in objections to the "status quo".
- If other readers are thinking about this, that is the whole point of allowing free and open discussion. There should be no time limits, no votes, no "declaration of consensus, now please shut up" statements. The facts should be out there all the time, and that they are now makes me a little less likely to complain. NB: I did not say walk in my shoes, but walk is the shoes of everyone who objected. There were 10 votes, and a few skeptical statements beyond that. Anyway, Red King's statement has some more thought from 2009 for consideration. I'd like to see the RoI title moved by the Northern Hemisphere summer, certainly it seems attainable to me. It is the wrong title, and should be changed. I know about the issues, ComhairleContaeThirnanOg, including the ones Dmcq and others have talked about. It doesn't make a move toward calling the state Ireland in the title impossible as so many have wanted to declare. One problem is, the current "Ireland" article is like 90% of an article about a major sovereign state in terms of content, mostly without the flag and sovereign listings in the infobox. Makes it very odd, I think there is more to discuss in general. Thanks, now hoping you don't think I'm as thick as you just made me out. Sswonk (talk) 03:49, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- BTW, this you wrote above is really not true at all: "The term 'Republic of Ireland' is just as made-up as the term 'Ireland' was as a name for a state which did not control, but by adopting that name was seeking to reinforce its claim to, the entire island of Ireland. They were both artificial, legal terms which have both entered widespread use." It has been and is very easily shown that not only is Ireland the constitutional legal English name only, with no other equals; Ireland is no longer a "claim" per Belfast 1998; and finally Ireland is far and away the more widely used term, outside of parochial census forms, envelopes and other arcana that "compete" with passports, statements from the government's UN Mission, titles on scores of official publications and websites labeled as from the "Government of Ireland", and dozens of name plates at international venues whose statements are of the highest significance among those which we are supposed to use when we are discussing reliable sources and verifiability. In summary, the terms are decidedly not on an equal level by any argument, especially under law, and it is merely wishful thinking to promote it as IECOLL and Wikipedia have falsely tried to do. Sswonk (talk) 06:09, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- WP:TLDR unfortunately Fmph (talk) 08:22, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm about as sick of the this venue as I can be. If an argument is not spelled out, it is not serious. If it is spelled out and detailed and made "broad" it is boring and not worth reading. Reading posts of other editors and then leaving a two word dismissal intended to keep people from reading the thoughts of others is in my opinion a sign of either laziness or cowardice or both. Again, there is no rebuttal for those fundamental facts about how wrong the titling is, so opponents resort to impatience and self-satisfying bluelinks to essays. Such comments and actions make IECOLL look like a counter-intuitive title for a useless forum and utterly disappoint me. Sswonk (talk) 12:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Whilst Sswonk has yet to even remotely convince me to agreeing to move the RoI article, the constant "TL;DR"s are a bit childish. JonCTalk 12:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- As are the huge amounts of repetition, the veiled personal attacks, and the promulgation of a position or argument that noone - noone - is disputing. (Just how many times do we have to say that everyone accepts that "Ireland" is the name of the country before Sswonk stops labouring that point?) BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- That I agree with. JonCTalk 13:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Or the repetition that Ireland is a 'broad concept'? I haven't said anyone disagrees that Ireland is the official name. What I am repeating until it is made as obvious as I can is that using 'Republic of Ireland' is incorrect and misleading. That, Bastun, is the problem. TLDR notes not personal? At least I can keep from telling people not to read something! Childish is also a word I considered, Jon, thank you for giving my sentiments there some support. Sswonk (talk) 13:14, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- That is the problem - as soon we fix on Ireland some clever Singaporean will wonder what the hell the "Republic of Ireland" is. Fact is, we natives don't really know ourselves. Allow me to add some pandiculation to the arguments.Red Hurley (talk) 14:55, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- As are the huge amounts of repetition, the veiled personal attacks, and the promulgation of a position or argument that noone - noone - is disputing. (Just how many times do we have to say that everyone accepts that "Ireland" is the name of the country before Sswonk stops labouring that point?) BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 12:58, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Whilst Sswonk has yet to even remotely convince me to agreeing to move the RoI article, the constant "TL;DR"s are a bit childish. JonCTalk 12:53, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm about as sick of the this venue as I can be. If an argument is not spelled out, it is not serious. If it is spelled out and detailed and made "broad" it is boring and not worth reading. Reading posts of other editors and then leaving a two word dismissal intended to keep people from reading the thoughts of others is in my opinion a sign of either laziness or cowardice or both. Again, there is no rebuttal for those fundamental facts about how wrong the titling is, so opponents resort to impatience and self-satisfying bluelinks to essays. Such comments and actions make IECOLL look like a counter-intuitive title for a useless forum and utterly disappoint me. Sswonk (talk) 12:35, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- WP:TLDR unfortunately Fmph (talk) 08:22, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sswonk, for someone who would like me, Bastún, et al to walk a mile in your shoes, you show a distinct inability to grasp the points we are making or see, not only that there are other valid points of view, but also that there are other issues involved apart from whether 'Republic of Ireland' is a good article title or not.
- Allow me to rephrase, then, Sswonk. Depite nobody disputing that Ireland is the official name of the state, you are spending a lot of kilobytes demonstrating how often it is used in the real world. But we already know that. It's use in the real world in the examples you cite causes no problems, because there is no other inconvenient entity (such as an island) also claiming the name. You also again state that the use of RoI is "incorrect and misleading". No, it isn't. It's used all the time by our government and officials, and the sky hasn't fallen in, what with it being an officially, legally prescribed description for the state. Similarly, the sky hasn't fallen in on the other states whose Wikipedia articles don't reside at the official state name. Which, I think, is a majority of them. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:30, 13 October 2011 (UTC)
To balance the knee-jerk chorus of disapproval to Sswonk's analysis, perhaps I'm unique in having actually read it and found it the clearest exposition to date. It affirms the view that I've expressed before: people from these islands should stand back, stop shouting and leave it to disinterested wikipedians to evaluate the question. The 'three administrator' panel that resolved the China question seems to me very appropriate. --Red King (talk) 13:30, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
All the time, or less so?
This table shows that rather than relying on the very generous estimation of Bastun that the government uses "Republic of Ireland" all the time, I would say it is more like my description of the term as seldom used. The state has a common name, an official name and a preferred name, and they are all the same thing: Ireland. There have been no arguments about the sky falling or any major claims of immediate serious harm here, just that RoI as title of the Wikipedia article has a long history of being looked at as less than ideal, is incorrect for an article title, and is overtly misleading to casual readers. Now we can add, it's a phrase not very frequently used or, concisely, uncommon on many major government websites. I suppose these government agencies don't feel the oppressive need to disambiguate as strongly as the chief protectors of IECOLL dogma. Currently, en.wikipedia.org is using the wrong title for the article about the sovereign state Ireland, it should reflect the common and official name that is used with much higher frequency, as is done on most other Wikipedia sites. Sswonk (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Agency | Search terms* and results | ||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Government of Ireland (includes all sites ending ".gov.ie" such as Taoiseach, Oireachtas, Departments, Boards and so on.) |
| ||||||||
Citizens Information Board |
| ||||||||
Irish Statute Book – Office of the Attorney General |
| ||||||||
An Bord Pinsean The Pensions Board |
| ||||||||
Public Appointments Service |
| ||||||||
Revenue – Irish Tax and Customs administration |
| ||||||||
Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport |
| ||||||||
MerrionStreet – Irish Government News Service |
| ||||||||
Iris Oifigiúil – official Irish State gazette |
| ||||||||
*results for "Republic of" and "island of" have been deducted from "Ireland" total results, for example, pensionsboard.ie had 386 hits for just "Ireland", results of 3 each for other two deducted gives 380. |
The above figures, unfortunately, aren't accurate. The correct search for "Ireland", excluding "island of Ireland" and "Republic of Ireland", gives "About 43,400 results" rather than the claimed 100,000. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 10:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- Disagree. The search which you suggest is 'correct' eliminates pages which use Ireland and any instance on any of those pages of either "Republic of Ireland" or "island of Ireland". That was not stated as the criteria, there is nothing either 'correct' or 'incorrect', but 'different'. The data show the amount of pages containing any of each term, but removing those that contain either of the other two from the results for "Ireland". The point is that your supposed argument that the current title enjoys equal use or at least significantly high use by the government is what is 'not accurate'. Sswonk (talk) 13:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
NB: I noticed that clicking the links after formatting with {{google}} gives different results than I originally had recorded when I had typed the searches in at the Google main page. In most cases, using {{google}} reduced the number of hits for "Ireland" by itself that I had initially recorded. The final numbers posted at the time of this note are accurate based on the footnote I placed in the chart. Sswonk (talk) 17:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Comments on the government site search results
I don't doubt your data & I do know that the country's name is Ireland. You should be concentrating on getting the island article name changed to Ireland (island). Thus if successful, there'd be less resistance to having the country article name changed to Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 05:28, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I am interested in a title for the sovereign state article that is not the one chosen in 2002 and that caused so much distrust, anger and resentment up to and during 2008-2009. The alternative of Ireland (state) is much more acceptable to others here than would be an all-Ireland article, so I think that would be a viable choice. I think the theoretical "difficult article" that would be titled Ireland is possible, but that is the least likely outcome currently so I am not really promoting "having the country article name changed to Ireland". Everyone, GoodDay, I am sure knows what the name is. The problem has been, and is still, showing just why the current title is a poor choice in spite of the good intentions of many involved. I do believe some article should be called simply Ireland, that is not what I am discussing recently though. Thanks – Sswonk (talk) 06:06, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
You've still not given a cogent argument - other than some people don't like it - as to why an unnatural disambiguator ("Ireland (state)") is required when there's a perfectly natural disambiguator ("Republic of Ireland") already in use. The latter, as you've shown, is used by our government, civil and public service. It's also used by the media and the population generally, when necessary - and not just when talking about our soccer team.
- "RoI as title of the Wikipedia article has a long history of being looked at as less than ideal" - WP:IDONTLIKEIT
- "is incorrect for an article title" - How so? Because it's not the official name? Most states on WP aren't on their official name. Because it's not the common name? True, but then there's that pesky island, which doesn't have another name or ready description. I also fail to understand how "Ireland (state)" is less "incorrect" than the official and legal description of the state.
- "and is overtly misleading to casual readers." If we assume by "casual reader" someone who is too lazy to read the entire lead, I'd hope we can agree that they will at least read the hatnote and the first sentence of the article. In addition, this argument would imply that every states' article should be on the official name.
- "Now we can add, it's a phrase not very frequently used or, concisely, uncommon on many major government websites." Because in the vast majority of cases, there's no need for it to be used. The same as on WP, where we can happily pipelink Ireland -> RoI when we're talking about the state.
BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:58, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- No time to respond to this at the moment, will be away for several hours. But, 'happily' is your description. Thank you for engaging in a dialog. Sswonk (talk) 14:01, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- What distrust anger and resentment? Some people just like arguing their side. Are some people here really resentful that the article about the state has the title Republic of Ireland? If you want go on about an article that causes actual resentment how about the Derry one instead? I agree with the article being titled Derry but I see no earthly reason why when the citations for an article about a person born there say Londonderry that article shouldn't say Londonderry and pipe to Derry instead of having the IMOS police swoop down on them. It's not as though people are forced to or even should write Republic of Ireland when the context is plainly about the state. Dmcq (talk) 14:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- So if the nats are willing to do a deal on Derry, you're willing to do a deal on RoI, is that it? That's really keeping to the principles and policies of Wikipedia, isn't it? Fmph (talk) 19:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think that's what Dmcq is saying at all. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 22:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- No and may I point to WP:AGF if you are going to start quoting Wikipedia principle. Dmcq (talk) 00:26, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- OK, lets assume in good faith that you had another valid reason for introducing the Derry debate into this argument,. So can you please explain to us all what that was? Fmph (talk) 06:45, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- I was illustrating that there were things which really do get some people annoyed rather than this business where what we've got is a person saying other people are annoyed and that's why they're going on about it. I queried an assumption there, are you actually resentful angry or distrustful because the article titled Republic of Ireland is titled that? Why did you to start assuming I had some other agenda? Is the sort of thing you talked about me doing the sort of thing you do yourself? The question about the title is the only relevant one to this section so you can leave the other two there out if you like. Dmcq (talk) 09:13, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'd support changing Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state), if it meant changing Derry to Londonderry. However, that's not how it's done on the 'pedia. GoodDay (talk) 13:33, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Let me be absolutely clear. That is not what I was saying or asking about. I had no motives in that direction. What I asked was is there anybody here who is resentful angry or distrustful because of the title of the article Republic of Ireland? I gave an example of an article title which has given rise to real friction. How much more plainly can I state it? I see that as something which has not been justified and I am asking if it is true. This is like asking if xyz always answers a question with a question except here it is to answer a question with a bad faith accusation. Dmcq (talk) 13:42, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'd support changing Republic of Ireland to Ireland (state), if it meant changing Derry to Londonderry. However, that's not how it's done on the 'pedia. GoodDay (talk) 13:33, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- I was illustrating that there were things which really do get some people annoyed rather than this business where what we've got is a person saying other people are annoyed and that's why they're going on about it. I queried an assumption there, are you actually resentful angry or distrustful because the article titled Republic of Ireland is titled that? Why did you to start assuming I had some other agenda? Is the sort of thing you talked about me doing the sort of thing you do yourself? The question about the title is the only relevant one to this section so you can leave the other two there out if you like. Dmcq (talk) 09:13, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- OK, lets assume in good faith that you had another valid reason for introducing the Derry debate into this argument,. So can you please explain to us all what that was? Fmph (talk) 06:45, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- So if the nats are willing to do a deal on Derry, you're willing to do a deal on RoI, is that it? That's really keeping to the principles and policies of Wikipedia, isn't it? Fmph (talk) 19:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- What distrust anger and resentment? Some people just like arguing their side. Are some people here really resentful that the article about the state has the title Republic of Ireland? If you want go on about an article that causes actual resentment how about the Derry one instead? I agree with the article being titled Derry but I see no earthly reason why when the citations for an article about a person born there say Londonderry that article shouldn't say Londonderry and pipe to Derry instead of having the IMOS police swoop down on them. It's not as though people are forced to or even should write Republic of Ireland when the context is plainly about the state. Dmcq (talk) 14:26, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Dmcq, your question though was difficult for me to understand. I wrote (italics added here): "I am interested in a title for the sovereign state article that is not the one chosen in 2002 and that caused so much distrust, anger and resentment up to and during 2008-2009." Then you asked "Are some people here really resentful that the article about the state has the title Republic of Ireland?" I was writing to GoodDay about what we both experienced in 2009 at the poll which resulted in the gag, and also the years leading up to it with forums full of anger, bitterness, AN/I, arbcom and wheel wars swirling around the name and of course Troubles related editing. My descriptions of the issue of naming in 2011 mostly relate to editorial objections involving common name, reliable sources, verifiability, undue weight and also but not primarily POV and neutrality issues. The bad blocks, abdication of responsibility and biased tinge of the poll debate are what got me convinced to work to change the title back in 2009, and the two-year gag even more so, but you appear to have confused my thoughts of that older Sturm und Drang with an assessment of theses debates. At least that is what I read. The Derry issue is a distraction, please don't go on about it within this debate. Thanks – Sswonk (talk) 13:44, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Do you personally feel resentful angry or distrustful because of the title? It was you who brought up the business about resentment not me Dmcq (talk) 13:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- No, because those three words were used by me explicitly describing up to and during 2008-2009. I don't feel that strongly, I haven't seen that degree of acrimony here. The meta-issues of how IECOLL is used to manipulate the debate and how people in general on this site are able to get away with dismissing genuine commentary with non-relevant bluelinked WP essays do make me skeptical. The title is a symptom of something to be wary of, as is anything related to overall gaming of the system and inherent bias be it male bias, POV bias, political non-neutrality or any of those. Sswonk (talk) 14:19, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well nobody else seems to have stepped up to say they feel too fussed about the issue either so since the clear consensus was to keep the status quo perhaps we should consider the whole matter closed? It can always be brought up again in say another six months time and if you get your arguments in early then who knows perhaps you might sway some people, but I can't really see that happening just yet so soon after the last poll. Dmcq (talk) 14:34, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- No, because those three words were used by me explicitly describing up to and during 2008-2009. I don't feel that strongly, I haven't seen that degree of acrimony here. The meta-issues of how IECOLL is used to manipulate the debate and how people in general on this site are able to get away with dismissing genuine commentary with non-relevant bluelinked WP essays do make me skeptical. The title is a symptom of something to be wary of, as is anything related to overall gaming of the system and inherent bias be it male bias, POV bias, political non-neutrality or any of those. Sswonk (talk) 14:19, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Do you personally feel resentful angry or distrustful because of the title? It was you who brought up the business about resentment not me Dmcq (talk) 13:54, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Dmcq, your question though was difficult for me to understand. I wrote (italics added here): "I am interested in a title for the sovereign state article that is not the one chosen in 2002 and that caused so much distrust, anger and resentment up to and during 2008-2009." Then you asked "Are some people here really resentful that the article about the state has the title Republic of Ireland?" I was writing to GoodDay about what we both experienced in 2009 at the poll which resulted in the gag, and also the years leading up to it with forums full of anger, bitterness, AN/I, arbcom and wheel wars swirling around the name and of course Troubles related editing. My descriptions of the issue of naming in 2011 mostly relate to editorial objections involving common name, reliable sources, verifiability, undue weight and also but not primarily POV and neutrality issues. The bad blocks, abdication of responsibility and biased tinge of the poll debate are what got me convinced to work to change the title back in 2009, and the two-year gag even more so, but you appear to have confused my thoughts of that older Sturm und Drang with an assessment of theses debates. At least that is what I read. The Derry issue is a distraction, please don't go on about it within this debate. Thanks – Sswonk (talk) 13:44, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Be bold, open up an RM at Republic of Ireland. See if you've persuaded more editors to 'dump' Republic of Ireland as a title. GoodDay (talk) 14:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks both for the thoughts, I feel comfortable with what I have written and the level of discussion. The idea of putting time limits or votes on this is however not in my thinking. Those make it like a contest, with inherent deadlines creating more urgency and resulting in disjointed discussions in my experience. A hiatus seems like a good idea, but not a forced one with the ability of "status quo" editors to pronounce "you can't discuss that now, wait until April". I don't plan to introduce more topics, they've been covered. In other words, let's just stop talking and leave it at that. I asked a while ago for someone to close HighKing's "Poll to see if people want to keep the status quo" at 24-10, even though the subsequent comments do show a little less support. Sswonk (talk) 14:59, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Be bold, open up an RM at Republic of Ireland. See if you've persuaded more editors to 'dump' Republic of Ireland as a title. GoodDay (talk) 14:39, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Isn't there a policy which states we're not suppossed to not use Google search for number of hits? Status Quo still sound good. (yes terrible pun) Mabuska (talk) 13:08, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- You probably mean WP:GHITS which is not a policy but part of the essay "Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions". There has been exaggerated commentary at various times, words like "overwhelming", "widespread", and in this case "all the time". I am only using the results to debunk Bastun on that particular comment. Given that results vary based on how the query is entered, I agree that Google hits are of borderline significance in a way like polygraph readings, but they are useful nevertheless. I have been contending throughout these discussions that the state has a common name, an official name and a preferred name, and they are all the same thing: Ireland, and that the need to disambiguate generally is exaggerated. I could go on about the "huge" plurality of pages, like Moving to Ireland Guide, where the language supports my contention. Where's the need to disambiguate shown there? I mean, if you're moving to Ireland... Right now though, taking a break seems like a good idea to me. Sswonk (talk) 14:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- And everybody who doesn't agree with you has been contending throughout that the island/country has the same common name, and that indeed there is no need to disambiguate generally (hence piped linking) but that since Wikipedia cannot for technical reasons have two different pages with the same title, there is a need to disambiguate the page titles. If you can persuade people that we should have an article entitled 'Ireland' which (a) covers the entire island/country From the Earliest Times to 1921/1939/the present day and (b) is also the main page about the Irish state, fine. Problem solved. It seems unlikely to me, though. If you can't do that, then none of the arguments and data you put forward about what may be the common, official or preferred names of the state are an adequate basis for a change in the status quo. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 15:46, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- You and others appear stuck on the idea that I only want to change the "Republic of Ireland" title to "Ireland" and do nothing else, and that is not at all what I have written. I have expanded on my thinking, both in my vote and a few other places. The focus is on replacing the "Republic of Ireland" title, not on renaming to Ireland without disambiguation. See: this diff where I created and titled this section in response to you before, and this, another explanation of that focus. Sswonk (talk) 16:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- I would support a change to Ireland (republic). GoodDay (talk) 16:10, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- On the contrary, Sswonk, I recognize that you have higher ambitions, and I think that was clear in what I wrote. What you don't seem to be able to recognize is that your arguments in favour of "Ireland" as the name for the state don't have any real bearing on the actual situation here, where there is general recognition that "Ireland" is indeed the correct name of the state, but disagreement over how to deal with the fact that there is also another geographical, cultural and historical referent for "Ireland", of (undeniably) longer standing and (arguably) broader scope, which at the moment is the subject of the page entitled "Ireland". Lots of us see no big problem with the status quo as the best way of dealing with this issue in relation to article titles. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Regarding your edit summary of the above, "yes, but I don't think you get it..."[1], why don't you just write "we know better and you need to learn"? How is that a logical argument? How is that supposed to be persuasive? I have repeatedly demonstrated that I "get it" and in fact the lots of you that "see no big problem" need to review more than just your own self-justifying, question-begging statements which are based in logical fallacies. You "argue" below that "Republic of Ireland" wins based on naturalness and common name. The reality is that you live in a region where "the Republic" or sometimes in the U.K. "Irish Republic" are somewhat natural and somewhat common for some speakers; that says zero about the full phrase "Republic of Ireland". It is myopic and parochial as well, you are assuming first what is common within your limited region is common outside, and second that since "the Republic" is commonly used in your experience then it follows that "Republic of Ireland" is the prescribed title for an encyclopedia article. That is not a logical argument, it is a leap of judgement and that only. I can assure you, and the weight of reliably sourced publications will confirm, outside Britain and Ireland those terms are not only uncommon, they aren't even considered necessary. If you want to publish a wiki that is used only within Britain and Ireland among lots of you who see no problem, fine. What we are doing here is writing for a majority of readers who do not use those terms, who read about and use Ireland when writing about the sovereign state, and who do not need to be force fed your idea of what is natural. Do you "get it"? Take a look outside of IECOLL and your own experiences in that region and you might understand that. Stop putting words in my mouth and using condescending language. That you and others have repeatedly attempted to lecture me in spite of my strong objection and presentation of reliably sourced facts indicates to me that you are unwilling to move away from forcing your own points of view on others, which is part of what is a problem with the current title. Sswonk (talk) 19:16, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Stop putting words in my mouth and using condescending language." That's a pretty strange thing to write in a paragraph which consists almost entirely of you doing just that. Also, your assumptions as to where I live are mistaken. But most importantly, you have completely failed, yet again, to provide any arguments that seriously address the real problem here, let alone to persuade me that "Ireland (republic)" is more commonly used or less parochial than "Republic of Ireland". If your real preference is, as you have intimated and I have tried to engage with above, (and apologies for again putting words into your mouth) for an article that serves as the main article on Ireland both as the country and as the modern state, why not propose that formally? I might well support it. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 21:33, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- You and others appear stuck on the idea that I only want to change the "Republic of Ireland" title to "Ireland" and do nothing else, and that is not at all what I have written. I have expanded on my thinking, both in my vote and a few other places. The focus is on replacing the "Republic of Ireland" title, not on renaming to Ireland without disambiguation. See: this diff where I created and titled this section in response to you before, and this, another explanation of that focus. Sswonk (talk) 16:02, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Um... what need to disambiguate? I mean... if you're moving to Ireland, you're moving to a state, a jurisdiction where you will need to know how revenue and tax works. Which is why you're on the revenue.ie website in the first place. I'm not aware of any islands or other natural geographical features of the planet that raise taxes separately from the authorities they share a space with. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- In spite of the "um..."s, the "really?"s, the "tl;dr" comments, and more "meh"s and "yawns" just waiting to light the way going forward, I have kicked the habit and left your project, in your world seemingly blind to the answers on your envelope. Have entirely too much fun beating off more common sense down the road, I can do without this. It's the wrong title. Good bye. – Sswonk (talk) 06:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Everyone's out of step except my Johnny!", as an old teacher of mine used to say. Would this be an appropriate place to note that so far the only people supporting the RM below seem to be Americans and Canadians? Where are those who would defend us from the imposition of Anglo-American-Imperial-Wiki-Centric-POV-Pushing when we need them most? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I've known since August that there was little chance, IECOLL has been made into SQEOD ("Status quo", end of discussion) by you, Scolaire, RA, Kiernan et al sitting as gatekeepers and manipulating all opposition toward your enforcement forum here. It's your small group specifically that's to blame, not those vast enterprises. Answers, 1) good as any. 2) I don't know, but that wasn't my argument even though it was plain most of you were shadow boxing against that apparition. Can you admit to me that I have, and always have, not taken that position as gospel but instead argued against your logic from a common sense and reliable sources perspective? Bastun? Sswonk (talk) 13:48, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- <comment withdrawn by editor>
- This challenge via this diff represented the first attempt to thwart open discussion, on the day the suppression of discussion ended you stopped me from removing the restrictive tags that now stand. That's what part in "manipulating all opposition toward your enforcement forum" you played in my view. It would be great if you could help sway the opinions of people towards moving the RoI title. Sswonk (talk) 00:17, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sswonk, since - if I've understood your position right - you're not in this just to get rid of the RoI title, why not propose something like this? At the moment, all your energy seems to be going into putting forward what a good few people, including myself, regard as inadequate arguments for something which is apparently not even your preferred option (moving the existing Republic of Ireland article to Ireland an moving the latter to some unknown point). ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 00:35, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- <comment withdrawn by editor>
- Your defense here leaves out a crucial word from my quote and ignores the exposition. You: "Neither of those diffs shows any attempt to thwart discussion". Me previously: (your challenge to removing the talk page tags was) "the first attempt to thwart open discussion" and "(manipulate) all opposition toward your enforcement forum here", in other words funnel everything into the "status quo" playland here where any page move is ridiculed by the major denizens. The displaytitle farce you began was dead in the water, a straw man like Fmph with "option G". I did not bother commenting at the title mask idea, wrong in many ways, deceptive, unassertive and cosmetic. BHL gave that a good response, it was a complete non-starter. My "lipstick on a pig" comment here applies to the pipelink to RoI and any other attempt to hide the current bad title. For the title, we need to use either the single common form Ireland, by itself as part of a major restructuring of two articles, or more likely with some (dab) word in parentheses, probably (state). Ireland the single word should be the focus of the title. RoI is wrong, and frankly based on the many fallacious didactic justifications here essentially is representative of original research. Sswonk (talk) 13:25, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- <comment withdrawn by editor>
- This challenge via this diff represented the first attempt to thwart open discussion, on the day the suppression of discussion ended you stopped me from removing the restrictive tags that now stand. That's what part in "manipulating all opposition toward your enforcement forum" you played in my view. It would be great if you could help sway the opinions of people towards moving the RoI title. Sswonk (talk) 00:17, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- I notice that you didn't vote in either of the two polls above, although I assume these occurred prior to your withdrawal from the field. Kauffner (talk) 16:26, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Counter 'the nail that sticks out gets hammered down' with 'sticks and stones will break my bones but names will never hurt me'. Dmcq (talk) 16:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- <comment withdrawn by editor>
- I've known since August that there was little chance, IECOLL has been made into SQEOD ("Status quo", end of discussion) by you, Scolaire, RA, Kiernan et al sitting as gatekeepers and manipulating all opposition toward your enforcement forum here. It's your small group specifically that's to blame, not those vast enterprises. Answers, 1) good as any. 2) I don't know, but that wasn't my argument even though it was plain most of you were shadow boxing against that apparition. Can you admit to me that I have, and always have, not taken that position as gospel but instead argued against your logic from a common sense and reliable sources perspective? Bastun? Sswonk (talk) 13:48, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Everyone's out of step except my Johnny!", as an old teacher of mine used to say. Would this be an appropriate place to note that so far the only people supporting the RM below seem to be Americans and Canadians? Where are those who would defend us from the imposition of Anglo-American-Imperial-Wiki-Centric-POV-Pushing when we need them most? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:19, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- In spite of the "um..."s, the "really?"s, the "tl;dr" comments, and more "meh"s and "yawns" just waiting to light the way going forward, I have kicked the habit and left your project, in your world seemingly blind to the answers on your envelope. Have entirely too much fun beating off more common sense down the road, I can do without this. It's the wrong title. Good bye. – Sswonk (talk) 06:27, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- And everybody who doesn't agree with you has been contending throughout that the island/country has the same common name, and that indeed there is no need to disambiguate generally (hence piped linking) but that since Wikipedia cannot for technical reasons have two different pages with the same title, there is a need to disambiguate the page titles. If you can persuade people that we should have an article entitled 'Ireland' which (a) covers the entire island/country From the Earliest Times to 1921/1939/the present day and (b) is also the main page about the Irish state, fine. Problem solved. It seems unlikely to me, though. If you can't do that, then none of the arguments and data you put forward about what may be the common, official or preferred names of the state are an adequate basis for a change in the status quo. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 15:46, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- You probably mean WP:GHITS which is not a policy but part of the essay "Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions". There has been exaggerated commentary at various times, words like "overwhelming", "widespread", and in this case "all the time". I am only using the results to debunk Bastun on that particular comment. Given that results vary based on how the query is entered, I agree that Google hits are of borderline significance in a way like polygraph readings, but they are useful nevertheless. I have been contending throughout these discussions that the state has a common name, an official name and a preferred name, and they are all the same thing: Ireland, and that the need to disambiguate generally is exaggerated. I could go on about the "huge" plurality of pages, like Moving to Ireland Guide, where the language supports my contention. Where's the need to disambiguate shown there? I mean, if you're moving to Ireland... Right now though, taking a break seems like a good idea to me. Sswonk (talk) 14:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
Requested move: Republic of Ireland → Ireland (republic)
– The current title of this article may mislead readers into thinking that the term "Republic of Ireland" is a long-form official name, equivalent to "Republic of France" or "Kingdom of Spain". In fact, the Irish government has discouraged use of this term for some time, as documented at Republic of Ireland (term). The official English-language name of the country is simply "Ireland", according to the Irish constitution (1937). "Ireland" is also the country's name as a UN member. The Associated Press Stylebook, the most influential journalism styleguide, recommends that the country be referred to as "Ireland" in most situations. The corresponding article in Britannica is titled "Ireland". This article notes prominently that the single word "Ireland" is the official name of the country. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform. This purpose is not advanced if incorrect names are used, however natural they might be. Kauffner (talk) 20:25, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
After a two-year ban imposed by Arbcom, a page move proposal for the Republic of Ireland can finally be entertained. Should this article be retitled Ireland (republic)? The single word "Ireland" is the common name, the constitutional name, and the UN member name of this nation. However, this lemma is currently used as the title of another article that would be difficult to move, so disambiguation of some sort is required. The current title may mislead readers into thinking that "Republic of Ireland" is the official long-form version of the country's name. The term "Republic of Ireland" was for a long time official British usage, but it was dropped after the Good Friday agreement in 1998. The title Ireland (state) has also been suggested. Kauffner (talk) 04:53, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Support
- Support, as nom Kauffner (talk) 06:00, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Support as it's about a republic named Ireland. A republic that happens to share the same name as the island, which it's on. GoodDay (talk) 20:46, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Also, Ireland (country) is acceptable - since we've got Georgia (country) as an article title.GoodDay (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: Ireland, all 32 counties of it, is considered one country (see Rugby Union, cricket, historical usage, etc.). Ireland (country) would not be a compromise. Ireland (state) might be, though I am staying clear of this debate.Mac Tíre Cowag 16:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't accept 'country' as the description of the island. GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Nobody is asking you to, it's not a question of whether everyone agrees to it or not (naturally there will be people who don't, just as there will be people who don't accept 'country' as a description for the Republic), but simply that it is a matter of fact that it is itself ambiguous as it can be, and is, also used to refer to the concept it is being proposed to disambiguate from, which means that it would be a pretty unhelpful kind of disambiguation. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 21:18, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't accept 'country' as the description of the island. GoodDay (talk) 15:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: Ireland, all 32 counties of it, is considered one country (see Rugby Union, cricket, historical usage, etc.). Ireland (country) would not be a compromise. Ireland (state) might be, though I am staying clear of this debate.Mac Tíre Cowag 16:45, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Also, Ireland (country) is acceptable - since we've got Georgia (country) as an article title.GoodDay (talk) 21:40, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Support - in the spirit of Michael Collins, though hopefully without the same personal consequences. Anything is better than the current mail-order muck. Dickdock (talk) 17:39, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
#Support for reasons given in my statement. I support equally Ireland (state). I strongly oppose Ireland (country) since that is the island and all its people - cf Rugby. --Red King (talk) 13:44, 20 October 2011 (UTC) On further thought, no. The state article should be 'Ireland' and the island article should be Ireland (island). As per most other wikipedias and the China precedent. --Red King (talk) 13:58, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- The China article is not an equivalent to Republic of Ireland - it is an article about China, not just the People's Republic of China, which covers Chinese history from the beginning as well as language, culture and so forth. If we were to have an article entitled "Ireland" covering similar material, such as the French Wikipedia article Irlande_(pays), it would be fine by me. But it wouldn't represent a move of Republic of Ireland to Ireland. The current article at Ireland is, simply, about Ireland, which is fine by me too. History, language, culture, geography and all. It's not just about physical geography, it's about a country (in one common sense of the word), so to move it to Ireland (island) would in my view be quite wrong. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Have you actually loooked at the China article recently? Following much discussion, the PRC article has been renamed China and new articles such Chinese culture created to recognise 'All-China'. The China article begins This page is about the People's Republic of China. For the sovereign state also known as Taiwan, see Republic of China. --Red King (talk) 16:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- I don't mean to be rude, RedKing, but have you? The first section after the intro is 'etymology', the second is 'prehistory', the third 'early dynastic rule', and so forth. None of these relate to the People's Republic. Neither is the 'culture' section restricted to the Communist period, though it does focus on it. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 18:03, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for the China comparison but I have no desire to put a bunch of missiles on the border with Northern Ireland or to try and bully everyone in the UN into not recognizing the existence of Taiwan. Perhaps WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is enough about this? Dmcq (talk) 20:08, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Have you actually loooked at the China article recently? Following much discussion, the PRC article has been renamed China and new articles such Chinese culture created to recognise 'All-China'. The China article begins This page is about the People's Republic of China. For the sovereign state also known as Taiwan, see Republic of China. --Red King (talk) 16:48, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- The China article is not an equivalent to Republic of Ireland - it is an article about China, not just the People's Republic of China, which covers Chinese history from the beginning as well as language, culture and so forth. If we were to have an article entitled "Ireland" covering similar material, such as the French Wikipedia article Irlande_(pays), it would be fine by me. But it wouldn't represent a move of Republic of Ireland to Ireland. The current article at Ireland is, simply, about Ireland, which is fine by me too. History, language, culture, geography and all. It's not just about physical geography, it's about a country (in one common sense of the word), so to move it to Ireland (island) would in my view be quite wrong. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose, but favor "Ireland (state)"
- Oppose per Evertype and Scolaire below, should be (state) and also discussion premature.Sswonk (talk) 13:03, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- '
Support'— Although the Government of Ireland does in fact officially use the term "Republic of Ireland" in some cases, it has made it clear in practice that it prefers the constitutional name Ireland. It does not call itself the "Government of the Republic of Ireland". Maps, websites, publications, style guides—our reliable sources—are in agreement that Ireland, whether it is somewhat ambiguous or not, is the name and title used for the sovereign state. Since this site, en.wikipedia.org, is an outlier in this case and since the title does have the potential to mislead readers, I support this move. Sswonk (talk) 17:57, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- '
- Oppose but would support a move to Ireland (state). --Evertype·✆ 11:44, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- First preference for "Ireland (state)", second preference for "Ireland (republic)". Given that 'Ireland' is ambiguous and has to be disambiguated, it is far more common for the governmental institution which operates in 26 counties of Ireland to be referred to as a 'state'. The term 'Republic of Ireland' is one used far more frequently in a British context and does raise concerns that it endorses a point of view, but no British sensibilities are offended by referring to the 'state'. Sam Blacketer (talk) 10:46, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- On the purported bias - or endorsement of a bias - of the term "Republic of Ireland" towards a British POV, that is not very tenable. Never minding that the term is the official description of the Irish state, we can look to what terms are used by people from either Britain (UK) or Ireland (ROI) and the frequency with which they use these terms.
- For example, search trends for "Republic of Ireland" on Google rank (unsurprisingly) Ireland as the top location that uses the term in searches. However, note the gap in distance between searches from the Britain and Ireland. In searches on Google, Ireland is followed by Nigeria in use of the term. The United Kingdom, despite it's comparative size, comprises on a small fraction of searches for the term.
- Now, contrast that with searches for "Southern Ireland". In that instance, the UK features far more prominently. In fact, the UK almost equals Ireland in number of searches for the term:
- Interesting too is to contrast searches for "Southern Ireland" vs. searches for "Republic of Ireland" within the UK and within Ireland:
- --RA (talk) 11:54, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Nice work, RA. And furthermore, in the results for "Republic of Ireland", Belfast (in Northern Ireland) is the predominant source assigned to the UK by Google - whereas "Southern Ireland" brings up a much greater propotion of results from Britain. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 13:49, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yes thanks. I think you show quite conclusively that the British government has better mind control over people in Ireland than it does over the people in Britain ;-) Dmcq (talk) 14:06, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there is obviously a technical glich in those results, compare here and here. But more to the point, you must realize that people typing in "Republic of Ireland" as a search term are most likely looking for information about the football team. Kauffner (talk) 14:15, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- On what grounds do you make that assumption? ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- It is interesting that so many are looking for the football team but I don't see why you think there is some glitch or that the graph you got shows anything different from the ones before. Dmcq (talk) 14:26, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Assuming that the '-' sign works as normal on these Google pages, this suggests that they're not looking for the football team at all. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:29, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Google Trends shows not one person in Ireland searching for "southern Ireland" in the last four years, which I assume is a glitch. If you Google "Republic of Ireland" -wikipedia, the top result is about the football team. To put a "-" on the Insights page would refer to search terms. That is to say, you took out the cases where the word "football" was typed in by the user. Kauffner (talk) 15:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that people in the Republic really would search much for southern Ireland - to people there, that suggests places like Cork and Kerry, and I imagine people would be more likely to use those names themselves, or more likely still of the southern province, Munster. You can see that most of the searches for 'Southern Ireland' from the Republic were in fact originating from southern areas like Cork and Kerry.
- Re the Google search - not when I do it... when I search Google for 'Republic of Ireland -wikipedia' the first result is the Irish government website and only three of the top ten results are football-related.
- In any case, I think RA's point has been fairly well established - this data strongly suggests that the term 'Republic of Ireland' is widely used in the Republic and does not reflect a British perspective. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 15:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there is obviously a technical glich in those results, compare here and here. But more to the point, you must realize that people typing in "Republic of Ireland" as a search term are most likely looking for information about the football team. Kauffner (talk) 14:15, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- And the second result is the government's home page, www.gov.ie... I'd suggest very few people in Ireland google "Republic of Ireland" looking for football news - they'll either go to the FAI or a news site, or google "Ireland v Andorra" to read how our English premiership-playing STG£50k/week heroes demolished the part-time butchers, bakers and candlestick-makers of Andorra, 2-0, in front of a massive crowd of 800... BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:17, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Jesus guys. Yous are clueless. It's showing you the Search Volume Index, ie relative not absolute data. How did yous rationalize away Dublin appearing down the list after Belfast, Galway, Limerick, Cork??? Not that you care. You will only ever see what you want to see. Dickdock (talk) 17:44, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose
- Oppose. "Republic of Ireland" wins as per WP:COMMONNAME, naturalness and ease of usage. The evidence presented on this page (including numerous archived discussions) shows that the Irish government wishes the state to be known as "Ireland" for official purposes, but itself uses the term "Republic of Ireland" on the relatively few occasions where it is necessary to distinguish between the state and Ireland (the country/island) as a whole - as it is, in this case, for Wikipedia. The term also has the advantage of being officially recognized as "the description of the state" in Irish legislation (and presumably, if the Irish government actually found the term objectionable, they would have repealed this legislative provision). ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:39, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - WP:TITLE gives 5 areas to be considered when naming an article. So is Ireland (republic) more Recognisable than RoI? No. Is it more Natural? Most definitely not. Is it more Precise? No. Concise even? No. What about Consistency? I think the vast majority of country article do not require piping in every article. #fail. An absolutely appalling proposal. Fmph (talk) 19:05, 16 October 2011 (UTC))
- By this logic, we should get rid of all parenthetical disambiguators. Surely "planet of Mercury" is a more natural construction than Mercury (planet). So many responses to this RM are written as if the editor never saw a disambiguator before, so let me explain the concept. The name of this state is Ireland. This is the legal name, the official name, and the common name. But as Wikipedia already has an article of this title, we must include some additional text to allow the software to distinguish the two. As this convention is peculiar to Wiki, whether or not any RS refers to the subject as "Ireland (republic)" is irrelevant. If you have spent any time on Wiki, you know that this is a very common problem and that thousands of titles are done this way. Kauffner (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Actually thats pretty much exactly what WP:PRECISE says we should do.
- i) Natural disambiguation: If it exists, choose a different, alternative name that the subject is also commonly called in English, albeit, not as commonly as the preferred but ambiguous title .... If this is not possible:
- ii) Parenthetical disambiguation: ...
- So we should only use parenthetical disambiguation if there is no alternative. In this case there are a number of alternatives. One is to leave it as it is. Another is to move it somewhere else. IMHO that should be at Ireland, if it is going to be moved. Then move Ireland to somewhere else. Fmph (talk) 10:33, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Actually thats pretty much exactly what WP:PRECISE says we should do.
- By this logic, we should get rid of all parenthetical disambiguators. Surely "planet of Mercury" is a more natural construction than Mercury (planet). So many responses to this RM are written as if the editor never saw a disambiguator before, so let me explain the concept. The name of this state is Ireland. This is the legal name, the official name, and the common name. But as Wikipedia already has an article of this title, we must include some additional text to allow the software to distinguish the two. As this convention is peculiar to Wiki, whether or not any RS refers to the subject as "Ireland (republic)" is irrelevant. If you have spent any time on Wiki, you know that this is a very common problem and that thousands of titles are done this way. Kauffner (talk) 07:34, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - Readers will not be misled if they read the very first line of the lede and/or look at the infobox. The Government of Ireland offically uses the term "Republic of Ireland" in many cases, and it is in fact the legal description of the state. The Irish government has not discouraged use of the term and no such "discouragement" can be found at Republic of Ireland (term). They simply use the official long form name "Ireland" when no disambiguation is necessary, and "Republic of Ireland" when it is necessary. Like Wikipedia. "Republic of Ireland" meets WP:COMMONNAME; it is a natural disambiguator, much more likely to be searched for than the artificial construct "Ireland (republic)", which breaches WP:DISAMBIG. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:16, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- I have to wonder what articles you read. The impression I get from the RoI article is that RoI is the full name of the state and "Ireland" is some kind of short form. You have to look at the footnotes to find out that "Ireland" is the constitutional name. Republic of Ireland (term) has several examples of official guidelines to "avoid" RoI, even for disambiguation. Kauffner (talk) 20:25, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- The first line of Republic of Ireland: "Ireland[7] , described as the Republic of Ireland,[8] is a state in Europe..." is fairly clear to me, as is the prominent infobox note "Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland declares that the name of the state is Ireland; Section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act 1948 declares that the description of the state is the Republic of Ireland." Republic of Ireland (term) has three examples, the most recent dating from 1963! It certainly no longer seems to be policy - which you seem to be ignoring. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 20:56, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- I have to wonder what articles you read. The impression I get from the RoI article is that RoI is the full name of the state and "Ireland" is some kind of short form. You have to look at the footnotes to find out that "Ireland" is the constitutional name. Republic of Ireland (term) has several examples of official guidelines to "avoid" RoI, even for disambiguation. Kauffner (talk) 20:25, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - Per Bastun. Kittybrewster ☎ 19:24, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Number of reasons, firstly reasoning for move is floored (see File:Envelope from Irish Revenue Commissioners.jpeg), secondly "Ireland (republic)" is a highly unlikely search term, thirdly as per the above discussion there clear consensus tor the status quo, so lets WP:Snow close this. Mtking (edits) 19:58, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose - Sounds too much like a disambiguation page which would be good to distinguish between the these two republics - Ireland and Ireland. Mabuska (talk) 22:05, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Per many above. In particular, with respect to the Wikipedia:Article titles, as ComhairleContaeThirnanOg points out, Republic of Ireland wins for recognizability, naturalness, precision, conciseness and consistency over Ireland (republic).
I also think that worrying over whether readers will believe the title of the page is the legal "name" of the state, as opposed to the legal "description" of the state, is over-stated hand wringing. The legal "name" and the legal "description" is given in the first line and an entire section (the first section in the article) deals with this distinction in depth. Even at that, however, if a reader did leave the article without knowing the legal "name" of the state, it would not be the end of the world. Mixing up this distinction is not the greatest of errors or the most important thing to know about the subject. --RA (talk) 22:29, 16 October 2011 (UTC) - Oppose ww2censor (talk) 22:49, 16 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Where on earth from anything abve did you get the idea that (republic) was a good idea instead of something like (state) or (country)? Not that I'd be particularly keen on them anyway. And would we still be able to put Republic of Ireland when the island is also being talked about or what would happen about that? I really can't see if it matters one whit whether a person who can't be bothered reading the first line of the lead or understand it thinks the name is Republic of Ireland - and my experience is that people like that will always find a way of misunderstanding whatever you say. Dmcq (talk) 00:16, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- The AP uses "Irish Republic." The current government seems to like "The Irish State". Who uses "country of Ireland" or "Irish country" to disambiguate between North and South? Kauffner (talk) 03:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- If "Republic of Ireland" is wrong and misleading for readers, as you say, then AP's style guide is even more wrong and misleading. Your evidence for use of "The Irish State" is a) irrelevant to this discussion; b) a website's menu heading; and c) used far less often than "Republic of Ireland". BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:12, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I was thinking of Wikipedia disambiguation and (country) would be the obvious one for that. State is more for things like Georgia the U.S. state as opposed to the country. Dmcq (talk) 13:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- "Country" fails for disambiguation purposes, in my opinion, because it is itself ambiguous and can be used to refer to all of Ireland as well - certainly plenty of people use it that way, and I would suspect there are probably plenty who would refer to both Ireland and the Republic of Ireland as a 'country' in different contexts. 'Ireland (country)' would certainly make me expect an article about all of Ireland, not about the Republic - even though I am from the Republic myself. I imagine it would probably have the same effect a fortiori on many readers from Northern Ireland and possibly from Britain. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:39, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- I was thinking of Wikipedia disambiguation and (country) would be the obvious one for that. State is more for things like Georgia the U.S. state as opposed to the country. Dmcq (talk) 13:14, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- If "Republic of Ireland" is wrong and misleading for readers, as you say, then AP's style guide is even more wrong and misleading. Your evidence for use of "The Irish State" is a) irrelevant to this discussion; b) a website's menu heading; and c) used far less often than "Republic of Ireland". BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:12, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- The AP uses "Irish Republic." The current government seems to like "The Irish State". Who uses "country of Ireland" or "Irish country" to disambiguate between North and South? Kauffner (talk) 03:15, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose It's unnatural and violates WP:DISAMBIG. JonCTalk 06:23, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose per the many reasons already noted above. Mooretwin (talk) 08:45, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose The only useful moves is Republic of Ireland to Ireland in combination with and after the move of Ireland to Ireland (island). Night of the Big Wind talk 09:30, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose I do prefer Republic of Ireland to all other choices in this particular circumstance regardless, but I'd like to point out something most of you probably won't like to understand, I believe that Republic (Ireland) would have been better than Ireland (republic). I guess, in e-space, categories are more important to me than monuments. I like to see full respect to anything, good or bad, but my love for Wikipedia is not that people can dump things here and how those things might be placed, it's that they can pick them up and how easily those things might be sifted through. I'd have a conveyor belt of everything system any day before I'd have a buckstop system on one day. I know, doesn't make much sense or something but it does to me. ~ R.T.G 16:21, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. "Ireland (republic)" would only make sense to the uninformed reader if if there was a contemporaneous "Ireland (kingdom)". It doesn't make clear the distinction between the political entity and the larger country. Scolaire (talk) 07:26, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment: Opening an RM to a new title in the middle of a lengthy discussion - especially when the nominator hasn't taken part in that discussion for nearly two weeks - is totally against the spirit of collaboration on Wikipedia. This is the third time Kauffner has done this since 17 September. Scolaire (talk) 07:47, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose; a fuller, unambiguous title should be preferred rather than one that has to have disambiguation brackets. MTC (talk) 07:34, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Comment. 2 in favour, 18 against. WP:SNOW? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:09, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose Full name is more descriptive. Hipocrite (talk) 14:35, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose. This title is the best way to distinguish this Ireland from any other. Srnec (talk) 03:17, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose per WP:TITLECHANGES. No substantive difference. Have mörser, will travel (talk) 05:08, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose The current setup has existed for many years. If one of the article names was to be changed now it would be used to justify additional changes, which is the long term goal of some editors here who seem to think a country that has existed for less than 100 years and does not control the whole territory of an island should have superiority over the island and claim ownership over the whole island and its history. There is no need to make a change, the present setup works fine. This is the second attempt to alter the page setups since the 2 year ban came to an end, huge amounts of arguments have taken place above going over the same old arguments. if this continues we really do need the ban extended another two years. BritishWatcher (talk) 23:25, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- What a load of POV horse-shit. The present name is problematic for many people, whether you agree with them or not. Ireland (state) would avoid this simply, and accurately, and without fuss. That's it. Simple. The huge problem many people have would be done away with. No more argument. But YOU, BritishWatcher, sing from the same hymnsheet you sang from two years ago. You like the status quo, because you dismiss the concerns of people who do not like it. Compromise, simple compromise, ought to lead you to recognize that if a name you consider neutral and accurate is problematic for some, another neutral and accurate name could be chosen. But no. You give us POV horse-shit. No wonder I don't edit articles about Ireland any longer. -- Evertype·✆ 23:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Unlike 2yrs ago, I've a prob with Ireland (state), because of Georgia (state). -- GoodDay (talk) 00:08, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Can you clarify the problem you have? Georgia (state) redirects to Georgia, a disambiguation page. The title of the article about the U.S. state is Georgia (U.S. state). How is that relevant here, GoodDay? Sswonk (talk) 01:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, it's at Georgia (U.S. state), in that case - no probs with Ireland (state). GoodDay (talk) 02:36, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Nice to see you again too Evertype. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Can you clarify the problem you have? Georgia (state) redirects to Georgia, a disambiguation page. The title of the article about the U.S. state is Georgia (U.S. state). How is that relevant here, GoodDay? Sswonk (talk) 01:13, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Unlike 2yrs ago, I've a prob with Ireland (state), because of Georgia (state). -- GoodDay (talk) 00:08, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Dear BritishWatcher. The phrase "Republic of Ireland" claims no less ownership over the whole island than "Ireland" does. It's just as geographically extensive. Sorry to point that out. The phrase would have to be "Republic of Southern Ireland" to address your concerns. Or maybe "Republic of Southern and North Western Ireland". That seems pretty accurate, without getting too picky. Though perhaps then "Northern Ireland" should be moved to "North Eastern Ireland", so as not to be geographically overextending ourselves in the opposite direction, which I'm sure concerns you just as much. Right. Good. So leave "Ireland" as it. Move "Republic of Ireland" to "Republic of Southern and North Western Ireland". And move "Northern Ireland" to "North Eastern Ireland". Sorted. Dickdock (talk) 18:07, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry i think you misunderstand what i was trying to say. My point was not about the name Republic of Ireland claiming ownership over the whole island or the fact the name Ireland does that. The point was the country article should not get the primary spot Ireland because it can not claim ownership over all of Ireland's history and all of its territory. The island is the primary topic not the country. I believe if this proposal to change the name to include country/state went ahead, it would be used by those who want the country at Ireland because the consensus and status quo that has lasted for many years will suddenly be broken. Personally i dont have a big problem with Ireland (country) or Ireland (State), i just prefer the status quo and strongly oppose any attempt by a small number of editors to have the country take Ireland position. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. My apologies. I'm disappointed, though, as that was the only point I imagined had any value. The point about the existence of a shadowy group with a cunning plan to take ownership of all the history and territory and so forth - I can't really comment on, not having access to your intelligence. As an aside, might I pick you up on "consensus and status quo"? There is a status quo. There is no consensus. That there is or has ever been a consensus is one of the two most pernicious and dishonest fantasies prevailing here. (The other one being of course that given the status quo there could ever be a consensus.) Dickdock (talk) 00:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Gosh I thought I was just helping write an encyclopaedia, not part of a cabal determining the fate of the world for the next thousand years! ;-) On the business of consensus, that does not have to be total and as far as I can see there is a pretty clear consensus to use Republic of Ireland. If a motion had that sort of support at Stormont it would easily pass no matter how you cut it. Dmcq (talk) 09:49, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. My apologies. I'm disappointed, though, as that was the only point I imagined had any value. The point about the existence of a shadowy group with a cunning plan to take ownership of all the history and territory and so forth - I can't really comment on, not having access to your intelligence. As an aside, might I pick you up on "consensus and status quo"? There is a status quo. There is no consensus. That there is or has ever been a consensus is one of the two most pernicious and dishonest fantasies prevailing here. (The other one being of course that given the status quo there could ever be a consensus.) Dickdock (talk) 00:44, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry i think you misunderstand what i was trying to say. My point was not about the name Republic of Ireland claiming ownership over the whole island or the fact the name Ireland does that. The point was the country article should not get the primary spot Ireland because it can not claim ownership over all of Ireland's history and all of its territory. The island is the primary topic not the country. I believe if this proposal to change the name to include country/state went ahead, it would be used by those who want the country at Ireland because the consensus and status quo that has lasted for many years will suddenly be broken. Personally i dont have a big problem with Ireland (country) or Ireland (State), i just prefer the status quo and strongly oppose any attempt by a small number of editors to have the country take Ireland position. BritishWatcher (talk) 17:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- What a load of POV horse-shit. The present name is problematic for many people, whether you agree with them or not. Ireland (state) would avoid this simply, and accurately, and without fuss. That's it. Simple. The huge problem many people have would be done away with. No more argument. But YOU, BritishWatcher, sing from the same hymnsheet you sang from two years ago. You like the status quo, because you dismiss the concerns of people who do not like it. Compromise, simple compromise, ought to lead you to recognize that if a name you consider neutral and accurate is problematic for some, another neutral and accurate name could be chosen. But no. You give us POV horse-shit. No wonder I don't edit articles about Ireland any longer. -- Evertype·✆ 23:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose per ComhairleContaeThirnanOg's concise summary of how "Republic of Ireland" wins per WP:COMMONNAME. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 22:26, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with you in opposing this particular move, though I would point out that there are problems with that "concise summary". As has very often been the case, supporters of the continued use of "Republic of Ireland" as the article title assume their conclusion in their premise, the assumption being that "as a title, it works". I would agree with ComhairleContaeThirnanOg on the government's infrequent usage "where it is necessary to distinguish between the state and Ireland (the country/island) as a whole" (as a disambiguator within text) and then stop, because "- as it is, in this case, for Wikipedia" is as the title of the article. This is where Wikipedia remains an outlier and where, due to the strong potential for misleading readers as to the name of the state, it has nevertheless failed to properly consider the difference, even amid strong and frequent opposition. There are alternatives available for the title or article structure which do not have nearly the likelihood of either misinforming or frustrating readers as "Republic of Ireland" has and does. Sswonk (talk) 00:23, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, after looking over the arguments above, I believe the current name is the best setup. Nightw 08:46, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, per above.- J.Logan`t: 09:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Oppose, COMMONNAME says ROI is the best name for it. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 10:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- It doesn't. COMMONNAME describes "common names" replacing formal ones, such as William Jefferson Clinton --> Bill Clinton, State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations --> Rhode Island, Cavia porcellus --> Guinea Pig. Here, a term verifiably unused by two dozen of our reliable sources (see [2]) and used only infrequently by the Government of Ireland (see [3]) is replacing the true common, preferred and recognizable name. Reference to COMMONNAME as justification of the current title is as misleading as the title itself, and does not trump core content policies violated by this title; this use as a title of an article is essentially a Wikipedia-specific concoction. Sswonk (talk) 15:09, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Oppose this proposal and oppose retention of 'Republic of Ireland' as article title.
The state article should be 'Ireland' and the island article should be Ireland (island). As per most other wikipedias and the China precedent. The term 'Republic of Ireland' is an entirely inappropriate title to use in an international article encyclopedia, as explained by Sswonk. --Red King (talk) 14:02, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
This was "Option B" in the 2009 poll. It made it to the third round where it ended up with 32 votes out of 204. That's 16 percent, or fourth choice among six. Kauffner (talk) 15:59, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah I don't see the state as being as important as the island any more than being Irish means you were born in the state. Dmcq (talk) 17:25, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Kaffner, the fact that interested contributors got in wrong does not mean that disinterested admins will get it wrong this time. ::Dmcq, please read the discussion re China. The situation is exactly analogous. Just as the the state, China, is not all of China but nevertheless is recognised by the name China - Ireland, the state, is not all of Ireland but is recognised by the name Ireland everywhere except the UK media and the present article name. As with China, we will need an 'Irish culture' article. --Red King (talk) 16:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Furthermore, 'Ireland' is the WP:COMMONNAME used internationally for the state, with the UK being the sole exception (usage in Ireland is exceptional). --Red King (talk) 16:39, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- And it is also the WP:COMMONNAME used internationally, and in Ireland, for Ireland. So your observation is not very relevant: we still have to either disambiguate (as for Korea) or combine the articles (as for China or [fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irlande_(pays) Irlande_(pays)]). And if we are choosing to disambiguate, then it's a fact that when people, both in Ireland and outside, are trying to distinguish between the independent Irish state on the one hand and Ireland as a whole on the other, they generally do so by referring to the former as "southern Ireland", "the Republic of Ireland", "Eire", or something of the sort. Fortunately for us, one of these is in common use in Ireland and elsewhere for the purpose and is recognised as the 'description of the State' by Irish law. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 10:40, 24 October 2011 (UTC)
Discussion on poll closing
- Winter weather advisory: why has this not been snow closed? The only supporting vote outside the nom has seen fit to agree[4] that it be so ended, and the tally is 2 to 21 in opposition. Rearranging the votes and tidying the formatting does nothing to change that. Recasting it as an RFC qualifies as pointy and bureaucratic, and slightly improper, let's close this now. Sswonk (talk) 13:50, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- SNOW is only an essay, not a guideline. There is another famous Wiki essay, the WP:Jamaican_Bobsled_Team_clause, which basically argues the opposite. The guidelines say there is supposed be a seven day voting period. I had trouble getting the RFC to work before, but now that it's working we can give it a chance to do its thing. This issue has been on ice for two years. We can wait a few more days and make sure it gets done right. So let's close this thing up on Monday, nice and regular. What would be really great is if this time we could get it closed by somebody who knows what they are doing. Kauffner (talk) 15:35, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- While I'd prefer WP:SNOW to apply, I've no particular objection to leaving this open until Monday (depite the fact that we've only very recently had a poll with a clear consensus to preserve the status quo). I would however point out that this was opened as a RM, not a RFC. Changing it half way through seems... odd. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:56, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- And I would prefer that this be closed whenever as the last poll on the naming of Republic of Ireland for 2011. The likes of this being the least likely to gain support, using it as a measuring stick being ludicrous and the likes of another straw man or two being proposed all are symptoms of the disease of "status quo"itis spreading aggressively here. Of course that will bring as many people as can be brought here by a near-zero supported RM, turned into an RFC for further broadcast across Wikipedia, and as a straw man severely pummeled into a pulver, will serve notice upon all who visit from outside that the SQEOD (for those arriving late, "Status Quo, end of discussion") is large and in charge, oui? N'est ce pas? I reiterate, continued discussion is needed. Several points need ironing out and to be true collaboration nothing gets solved by holding disjointed contests. Why hold another and wait until BW blurts out how much this shows we who disagree with the title all need our mouths taped shut and a spanking? Nasty, thieving, anti-stability, snake-eating, stinking-breath swine who are clearly insulting Jimbo and the heavenly hosts, trampling on capitalism and divine goodness, and soiling the baronet's linens while he's out. A pox we are, shame, shame, etc. until I gather myself up off the floor from laughing so hard. At any rate, there is potential for setting up a single poll early next year on two choices, not six as there were in 2009 and not a disjointed and confusing effort as the three so far have been here. HighKing found faults, hasn't returned, Scolaire dislikes this, I see it as pointless. In 2009 there were position statements just too many choices. Here we have nothing but chaotic talking at odds and past each other, entrenchment of an unbelievable scale among "status quo" supporters, and at the same time a title that is still flawed and strongly challenge by argument, if not votes. As I have remarked in the past couple of weeks a vote is an utter waste; these non-productive things need to be avoided through calmness and discussion, not scrums among chums, ready to flatten the next scarecrow. No more RMs please, I ask of the closing party. Not in this unstructured and contentious season. Talk only until 2012, no more votes this year. Sswonk (talk) 01:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Last time there were multiple options using a voting system that progressively eliminated the least favoured ones. Why restrict people to two choices? And who gets to choose what the two choices are? I don't see what's to be gained by restricting the discussion thus - and you don't seem to have liked how that worked out here! ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 10:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Proportional representation, or STV votes that work with PR, is practically unknown as a voting system in the United States. That confused the process in 2009 and seeks to split votes against the "status quo" thus favoring it. I am not advocating restricting discussion on options, ComhairleContaeThirnanOg, nice try; I am asking to stop having these poorly organized contests while discussion is ongoing. "And who gets to choose what the two choices are?", everyone does but calmly and without severe deadlines. No more votes in 2011. Thoughts? Sswonk (talk) 13:57, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Sswonk, it's very hard to keep track of what you are and aren't in favour of, because just above you said that "there is potential for setting up a single poll early next year on two choices, not six as there were in 2009", and now you object to me saying that restricting people to two options (despite the fact that there are obviously a much larger number of possibilities) is not ideal.
- Personally, I'm not convinced that any process of gradual elimination will any better than the instant elimination involved in STV. Is it not likely to just force anyone who wants to have a say to stay involved in a much longer process? Really a different kind of voting system, such as the Condorcet method, might be better - because it's quite possible that an option which is not many people's first preference might represent a compromise that would nevertheless be acceptable to many. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think it's hard for you to keep track in part because you might read into things or "hear what you want to hear". Both of the things I wrote are consistent with skepticism over STV but not over eliminating poor choices and unlikely candidates through discussion. I think, for example, it's pretty safe to assume that "Ireland (republic)" doesn't deserve further consideration in that regard. No matter, we can get closer to on the same page over time. You wrote "what's to be gained by restricting the discussion thus", I responded "I am not advocating restricting discussion on options." That's really it, discussion is fine but having a vote similar to 2009 I don't want. In fact, a tribunal might be the way to go, no votes but something like high court recommendation could help to defeat the tyranny of the majority, which has prevailed in keeping the current title even in the face of a great deal of contrary titling and usage by the outside reliable sources we rely on. I just think that the previous system of six choices (and Fmph wants to add a seventh) favors the "status quo" because it splits votes and some voters, possibly enough to make the difference, don't realize that any vote for the "status quo" under that system, even as a seventh preference, will increase its chance of prevailing. Drive-by voters, not bothering to contemplate the details we've discussed, will tend to hedge and throw in a preference for "status quo" before exiting. You know that happens, and I am not showing ABF, it's reality. I am thinking about all of it, but less rather than more choices, and possible even a China type naming committee might be the only way to finally have the wisest title prevail. Sswonk (talk) 03:19, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, first of all, the idea that "any vote for the "status quo" under that system, even as a seventh preference, will increase its chance of prevailing" - no, of course not. Any preference will only increase the thing's chances of prevailing over the things that are put below it. Secondly, if voters, whether driving or on bicycles, cast a particular preference, what's wrong with that? One has to assume they have a reason for doing so. That's a benefit, not a fault of the system. If someone who does not share your Manichaean view sees the status quo as worse than all but one of the alternatives, it's all the better if the voting system allows their preference to count. Actually, I think you are overly fixated with the status quo. The status quo is one of any number of alternatives, yet you seem to have elevated it into some sort of inverse Holy of Holies. It's quite feasible that there are people who would prefer a given alternative A, but think that the status quo is better than alternatives B and C. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 04:06, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think it's hard for you to keep track in part because you might read into things or "hear what you want to hear". Both of the things I wrote are consistent with skepticism over STV but not over eliminating poor choices and unlikely candidates through discussion. I think, for example, it's pretty safe to assume that "Ireland (republic)" doesn't deserve further consideration in that regard. No matter, we can get closer to on the same page over time. You wrote "what's to be gained by restricting the discussion thus", I responded "I am not advocating restricting discussion on options." That's really it, discussion is fine but having a vote similar to 2009 I don't want. In fact, a tribunal might be the way to go, no votes but something like high court recommendation could help to defeat the tyranny of the majority, which has prevailed in keeping the current title even in the face of a great deal of contrary titling and usage by the outside reliable sources we rely on. I just think that the previous system of six choices (and Fmph wants to add a seventh) favors the "status quo" because it splits votes and some voters, possibly enough to make the difference, don't realize that any vote for the "status quo" under that system, even as a seventh preference, will increase its chance of prevailing. Drive-by voters, not bothering to contemplate the details we've discussed, will tend to hedge and throw in a preference for "status quo" before exiting. You know that happens, and I am not showing ABF, it's reality. I am thinking about all of it, but less rather than more choices, and possible even a China type naming committee might be the only way to finally have the wisest title prevail. Sswonk (talk) 03:19, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Proportional representation, or STV votes that work with PR, is practically unknown as a voting system in the United States. That confused the process in 2009 and seeks to split votes against the "status quo" thus favoring it. I am not advocating restricting discussion on options, ComhairleContaeThirnanOg, nice try; I am asking to stop having these poorly organized contests while discussion is ongoing. "And who gets to choose what the two choices are?", everyone does but calmly and without severe deadlines. No more votes in 2011. Thoughts? Sswonk (talk) 13:57, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Last time there were multiple options using a voting system that progressively eliminated the least favoured ones. Why restrict people to two choices? And who gets to choose what the two choices are? I don't see what's to be gained by restricting the discussion thus - and you don't seem to have liked how that worked out here! ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 10:12, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- And I would prefer that this be closed whenever as the last poll on the naming of Republic of Ireland for 2011. The likes of this being the least likely to gain support, using it as a measuring stick being ludicrous and the likes of another straw man or two being proposed all are symptoms of the disease of "status quo"itis spreading aggressively here. Of course that will bring as many people as can be brought here by a near-zero supported RM, turned into an RFC for further broadcast across Wikipedia, and as a straw man severely pummeled into a pulver, will serve notice upon all who visit from outside that the SQEOD (for those arriving late, "Status Quo, end of discussion") is large and in charge, oui? N'est ce pas? I reiterate, continued discussion is needed. Several points need ironing out and to be true collaboration nothing gets solved by holding disjointed contests. Why hold another and wait until BW blurts out how much this shows we who disagree with the title all need our mouths taped shut and a spanking? Nasty, thieving, anti-stability, snake-eating, stinking-breath swine who are clearly insulting Jimbo and the heavenly hosts, trampling on capitalism and divine goodness, and soiling the baronet's linens while he's out. A pox we are, shame, shame, etc. until I gather myself up off the floor from laughing so hard. At any rate, there is potential for setting up a single poll early next year on two choices, not six as there were in 2009 and not a disjointed and confusing effort as the three so far have been here. HighKing found faults, hasn't returned, Scolaire dislikes this, I see it as pointless. In 2009 there were position statements just too many choices. Here we have nothing but chaotic talking at odds and past each other, entrenchment of an unbelievable scale among "status quo" supporters, and at the same time a title that is still flawed and strongly challenge by argument, if not votes. As I have remarked in the past couple of weeks a vote is an utter waste; these non-productive things need to be avoided through calmness and discussion, not scrums among chums, ready to flatten the next scarecrow. No more RMs please, I ask of the closing party. Not in this unstructured and contentious season. Talk only until 2012, no more votes this year. Sswonk (talk) 01:13, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think I disagree there, but have to study it for a bit. A sixth preference vote for "F" got counted all the way to the end in my mind, not "only...over the things that are put below it". I will look it up. Sswonk (talk) 04:15, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- ComhairleContaeThirnanOg, you are a nice person it seems, but for me "Republic of Ireland" is not an acceptable title for the article about the sovereign state. Anyone can diminish that and dismiss me with an "IDONTLIKEIT" bluelink (irrelevant, that portion of an essay is about posting simplistic rationales at AfDs, the antithesis of the highly detailed, thousands of words I have submitted here) or put a psychoanalytic bent on it and call it a "fixation". Holy of Holies, it is, to the SQEOD group you've been interacting with. Several are hell bent on moving one inch over RoI apparently because they felt very insulted by some of the arguments. I don't know of a better way to combat that severe irrational intransigence than to pound away at it time and again until the cracks start to appear. Sswonk (talk) 04:28, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- On the technical point that, "Proportional representation, or STV votes that work with PR, is practically unknown as a voting system in the United States": In the USA it is known as instant-runoff voting. It is common enough that we have an article on it: Instant-runoff voting in the United States. Indeed, an example of where a form of instant-run-off is used is the TV show, American Idol.
- Additionally, some of the voting systems used on the en.wiki and the Wikimedia Foundation are far more complicated and obscure. I don't believe the voting system we used was biased against American contributors. --RA (talk) 14:32, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- First I sincerely want you to trust that I am not trying to sound smug, or lecture you. But I really need to answer that question with another, RA. The question is: do you know how many jurisdictions there are in the United States? There are 50 states. There are 275 cities with 100,000 persons or more within their corporate limits. There are 435 districts of the U.S. House of Representatives, and two Senators for each state making 535 elected federal representative offices. There are over 3,140 counties in the U.S., 254 of those in Texas alone. I know you are prone to being optimistic about your beliefs and viewpoints, so not to burst your bubble but please, please trust me. That "IRV voting in the U.S." article mentions that, "as of August 2011, IRV elections have been held in more than a dozen jurisdictions since 2000." Serious when I say it, IRV/STV/PR is practically or if you like effectively, mostly, for all intents and purposes, unknown here. I only knew about it in 2009 because I had lived in Cambridge, Massachusetts for a while. Cambridge as a place is about as untypical a jurisdiction as there is here. Point is, we have thousands of jurisdictions and only very few (at least a dozen!) and very recently have any held PR voting. American Idol is a game show. Repeating, STV polling is not normal here, unlike in Ireland and in the UK. With such a system, it isn't naturally understood, there is a learning curve involved for many here, including understanding first preferences and transfers. Not to say the system is bad or unusable because of that, nevertheless trust me it is not well known and thus as I wrote "confused the process" for some to be sure. Sswonk (talk) 02:54, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- The other thing about STV is that it is one of the simplest methods of voting on multiple choices, for the voter. You simply rank them in order of your preference. While administering the vote is a slightly more complicated process, I find it hard to believe that the instruction to 'rank these options in order of your preference' is a complication that would disadvantage any voter, regardless of whether they were used to the system or not.
- Sswonk, you also suggest that having more than one option 'seeks to split votes against the "status quo" thus favoring it'. This is assuming that the basic choice is between (a) the "status quo" and (b) "anything else", and that people who don't like the status quo will obediently vote for whatever (b) they are presented with, but will get all confused and fail to cast an effective vote if given the choice of (b), (c) and (d). I think you should give people more credit. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 14:42, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. This is en.wikipedia (for English-language), not us.wikipedia (for US-centric). What was hard to understand about "vote for one or more of your favourite, then your second favourite if you so wish, and so on"? As I recall, we'd relatively few single votes at all. (Again, where are those who would defend us from the imposition of US-imperial-wiki-centricism when we need them?! :P ) BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:49, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm going to answer all of these, but start here first. Bastun, what did she hit you with and how hard? I know you miss her. Still, I think she left the bells ringing inside your well-protected skull. I mean, you act like an aging soldier in Los Angeles who dives behind a bush when he sees a Korean grocer emerge from the rear of his store with a mop and bucket, believing it is an Imperial Japanese soldier with a bayonet. Can you please stop fighting ghosts from long ago wars? Anyway, I believe the phrase is: "locked in a sort of Imperialist Anglo-American Zanadu where editors of the same tribe can compliment one another on their openness and tolerance; like Civil Administrators at cocktail party in the Raj." Here at SQEOD, that description's close to "spot on" as you might say in those islands. Sswonk (talk) 02:10, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Thon islands, even. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 02:13, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, don't mind me, Sswonk, I'm just enjoying the irony - something often lost on North Americans. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 15:19, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, there's "racism, battleground behaviour and total failure to adhere to the most basic principles of editing in a collaborative environment" for you. Shrug. Alanis? Could be "described" as more successful than Melanie, and certainly more politically astute. Or is it poetically? Sswonk (talk) 01:35, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- What's gonna be the next RM? after the current one is closed as 'no consensus'. GoodDay (talk) 03:26, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm going to answer all of these, but start here first. Bastun, what did she hit you with and how hard? I know you miss her. Still, I think she left the bells ringing inside your well-protected skull. I mean, you act like an aging soldier in Los Angeles who dives behind a bush when he sees a Korean grocer emerge from the rear of his store with a mop and bucket, believing it is an Imperial Japanese soldier with a bayonet. Can you please stop fighting ghosts from long ago wars? Anyway, I believe the phrase is: "locked in a sort of Imperialist Anglo-American Zanadu where editors of the same tribe can compliment one another on their openness and tolerance; like Civil Administrators at cocktail party in the Raj." Here at SQEOD, that description's close to "spot on" as you might say in those islands. Sswonk (talk) 02:10, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Indeed. This is en.wikipedia (for English-language), not us.wikipedia (for US-centric). What was hard to understand about "vote for one or more of your favourite, then your second favourite if you so wish, and so on"? As I recall, we'd relatively few single votes at all. (Again, where are those who would defend us from the imposition of US-imperial-wiki-centricism when we need them?! :P ) BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 14:49, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hi GoodDay. You're killin me, you realize that don't you? If I remember right, you like RMs too much. Never enough RMs for you. Can you try to not be so RM happy and take a minute here to read what I'm saying about this, to end votes for now and gather some structure? I would very much appreciate that, AGF of course but please, hold off on worry about the "next RM". Thanks Sswonk (talk) 03:32, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm just anxious that we avoid the preference scheme which we had in 2009. We should go the RM route, one at a time. GoodDay (talk) 03:43, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well, if so there you just proposed it. I would not agree to that scheme. Too many frivolous RMs, too much showcasing of "status quo" hegemony and dominance. It just seems like a game, like a professional wrestling card. I sincerely believe having votes will solve little, the past history and entrenchment here is too much of an issue. It's not a particularly neutral venue. Sswonk (talk) 03:59, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'm just anxious that we avoid the preference scheme which we had in 2009. We should go the RM route, one at a time. GoodDay (talk) 03:43, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Hi GoodDay. You're killin me, you realize that don't you? If I remember right, you like RMs too much. Never enough RMs for you. Can you try to not be so RM happy and take a minute here to read what I'm saying about this, to end votes for now and gather some structure? I would very much appreciate that, AGF of course but please, hold off on worry about the "next RM". Thanks Sswonk (talk) 03:32, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
At least, everybody's free to try to persuade the community to which title they believe is best. The more the community is involved, the better. GoodDay (talk) 04:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- GoodDay, we all know you love teh drama on teh internet, and after several one-line comments will usually !vote for whichever option has the best prospect of extending said drama, but please, no more RMs without discussion. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 09:25, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
How many votes have to be taken which clearly show no majority support for a change before people accept the status quo should remain for at least a while. At what point do we hold another vote on if we should request arbcom to extend the ban for another year or two? BritishWatcher (talk) 18:08, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
If this is closing tomorrow, as I had understood from the above, why is the RFC being changed now? ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 11:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- *shrug* Forum-shopping? BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:27, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Geographic disambiguation
Since the US method of disambiguating place names (Atlanta, Georgia) is quietly being used for more and more places outside the US, why not extend this and have:
- Ireland, Ireland
- Ireland, Europe
Clearly the state is meant by the first example, and the island by the second.
If anyone should worry about the repeated name, they can rest assured that it will be no more confusing than New York, New York.
Yours in merriment, Rich Farmbrough, 10:26, 24 October 2011 (UTC).
Every country on Wikipedia seems to have a foreign, or international, relations article. The format is a list of inter-governmental diplomacy, who has an embassy with who, who went to war with who, and that point is the cut off. None seem to have an article for cultural relations, which aren't the same as intergovernmental relations. I mean, as a tourist guide, Wikipedia *could* get you beat up in the nicest of places. I'm just plucking at the future with a broad focus on the debate category here. What direction is this energy going, that sort of thing. Don't the cultural relations of many many countries make up interesting and informative reading? I know, you dive any deeper into culture than art and law and people want to have a war, but for instance, we have an article Culture of Ireland and we have Irish culture in the United States so forth, but we don't have Cultural relations of Ireland tying them all together in relation to the one. We don't have all-for-one in that respect. We've two or three for each other in some cases, but that's it. In fairness, the problem with this naming debate is that we have to make it all up ourselves. The topic hasn't really been touched by the sources we rely on, though they leave us with mismatches that don't add the whole 100 per cent. So, I don't know if there is a particular academic discipline, aside from all encompassing history, best covering cultural relations, between masses of people rather than leaders focus, but if it was more important before, our debate would have been solved here much sooner if it needed solved at all. I think that at some time in the future cultural relations articles and subjects should and will be more important. Maybe they already exist and I do not know what name they are going by but I've not found them per se. So, if you don't mind, for those really immersing themselves in this debate, what sort of thing might you be interested in next? I think this sort of thing partly fits so in case I'm right I'll leave the comment and other people might think about it too. Have a rainy day! ~ R.T.G 16:51, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
- Well Wikipedia is the encyclopaedia anyone can edit, so if you can find a good source talking about such a topic and it seems distinct enough go for it. I'm not sure what kind of stuff you're talking about, is it mayors going off to Nova Scotia because of historic ties, towns twinning with towns in France or Zimbabwe, endangered communities getting together like with the Basques etc. that sort of thing or something quite different? Dmcq (talk) 11:15, 18 October 2011 (UTC)
- Anything that is more than what we have currently, lists of diplomats and war. Rather than relying solely on articles such as relations between Ireland and US we could have an Ireland article which outlines the whole thing with all countries. All the things you mention and more seem to have a place in that. ~ R.T.G 13:07, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
"Full name" is Ireland
Above at the RM to move to "Republic of Ireland" to "Ireland (republic)", Hipocrite (talk · contribs) voted with "Oppose Full name is more descriptive." (diff)
Hipocrite, a primary argument against the current title is justified precisely because of the mistake you made in that comment. "Republic of Ireland" is not the "full name" of the sovereign state Ireland. In fact, it is not an official name at all, but a description legislatively provided in 1948 when Ireland left the Commonwealth and declared a republic. Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland reads: "The name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland." The full, long-form name is the only English name of the state, and that is one word: Ireland. For example, see the European Union Publications Office and on that page, in addition to the row about Ireland look at the notes at the bottom of the table. It says explicitly "Do not use ‘Republic of Ireland’ nor ‘Irish Republic’." Today, in 2011, the official preference is unambiguous and stated to the other governments of Europe: the Government of Ireland prefers use of the official name Ireland over others in writing.
n.b. everyone else: Who knows how many voters in the past used this same misinformed rationale? This vote, by a seven-year veteran of Wikipedia editorship, points out the falseness of the claims that the article lead and footnotes do enough to clarify such a mistaken perception. If someone who has edited en.wikipedia.org for that length of time gets it wrong, I find no reason for anyone to continue to think the average reader benefits from the current convoluted practice of titling an article and then relying on text to disclaim that very title as not being an official name of the state. Before mentioning "Hellenic Republic" or "United Mexican States", be aware that is a counterintuitive argument: the "Republic of Ireland" title uses a legislative, description-only long phrase to replace an official name, not the other way around where a long official name is substituted by an official short form one, as with Greece and Mexico.
The website you are now reading is an errant outlier on this issue, and in fact the RoI title is (correctly) not used by the vast majority of our reliable sources. Attempts at justifying the incorrect title constitute little more than original research supported by personal experience and point of view; such original research violates one of the three core content policies, and such policy is not trumped by guidelines or essays. It is time to end this practice and correct the mistakes initiated by Larry Sanger et al. in 2002. If there is a need to disambiguate from the current article titled Ireland, then do so using the actual name of the state, with a simple disambiguator, using the form Ireland (state). As said before, that is correct and accurate and ends all arguments, save lesser preferential ones such as "I don't like it because it uses parentheses." Sswonk (talk) 07:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- The decision has been made by consensus for the moment. I see you care about this but I have another life to lead so I will ignore you. Come back in six months with your arguments and I'll listen again and you might convince me then for all I know. Pushing these arguments again and again before then is liable to just reset the tick on my clock. Dmcq (talk) 08:03, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- "The incorrect decision has previously been upheld by original research" is more like it. We do all have another life, don't we? But how is that a valid reason to ignore facts placed in evidence meant to assist you in making decisions? The first paragraph may necessarily be a restatement of previous points, but that is because obviously the correct information has difficulty making it through. However, in the next two paragraphs above your comment you have new statements from me about the counterintuitive "other stuff" type reasoning and the "don't like brackets" rationale, both of which should have always been trumped by the combined core content policies of NPOV, verifiability and no original research. The primary reason for that is the local nature of the debates, which forced a poor title. I agree that it may take a few months to sway important editors, you among them. But, this isn't all meant for you and from time to time I will make these other types of observations. They're not meant to mess with your clock. Thanks though, Dmcq, I certainly will try to be less urgent sounding for you. Enjoy your time away. Sswonk (talk) 13:33, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Republic of Ireland is not the result of original research. GoodDay (talk) 14:16, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ditto. Republic of Ireland is not original research. It is a common name for the state and a natural disambiguator between the state and the broader topic/country/island. --RA (talk) 15:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- As a title of an article here, that is how I am challenging based on the core content policies. It is a textual instrument within prose and unsupported as a purely synthetic title of an article here. To make the leap from its obvious but not frequent use as an official description and sometimes disambiguator by the Government of Ireland within certain text and on, for example, revenue envelopes, to being the best choice as the title here, that specifically is being challenged. The arguments in support are fully biased and are based on unsubstantiated assumption and pleadings against the tremendous weight of our reliable sources. That is handled by this: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources." In this case, substitute the titling on this site of an article about a sovereign state that goes against the norms and positions of published works such as the sites I have linked for article titles whose content is unambiguously that same sovereign state Ireland and you have an OR title. "Republic of Ireland" is a bad title, and improper methods of justification have long supported it. As natural as it may seem to a small group of Wikipedia editors who know how to game its systems, it is not natural to a larger portion of the outside world. That situation should be ended, in this case by policy. A perfectly acceptable alternative is available and should replace the current title. Thanks for your continued reading of my thoughts. Sswonk (talk) 01:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- I think that any reading of the policies you mention that renders 'Republic of Ireland' (a term found in reliable sources and provided for in Irish legislation) unacceptable as 'a title of an article' here, would also imply that we would need a verifiable source, avoiding original research, for the specific contention that 'Ireland' is a suitable title for a Wikipedia article about the Irish state. ComhairleContaeThirnanOg (talk) 17:47, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- As a title of an article here, that is how I am challenging based on the core content policies. It is a textual instrument within prose and unsupported as a purely synthetic title of an article here. To make the leap from its obvious but not frequent use as an official description and sometimes disambiguator by the Government of Ireland within certain text and on, for example, revenue envelopes, to being the best choice as the title here, that specifically is being challenged. The arguments in support are fully biased and are based on unsubstantiated assumption and pleadings against the tremendous weight of our reliable sources. That is handled by this: "Wikipedia does not publish original thought: all material in Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable, published source. Articles may not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position not clearly advanced by the sources." In this case, substitute the titling on this site of an article about a sovereign state that goes against the norms and positions of published works such as the sites I have linked for article titles whose content is unambiguously that same sovereign state Ireland and you have an OR title. "Republic of Ireland" is a bad title, and improper methods of justification have long supported it. As natural as it may seem to a small group of Wikipedia editors who know how to game its systems, it is not natural to a larger portion of the outside world. That situation should be ended, in this case by policy. A perfectly acceptable alternative is available and should replace the current title. Thanks for your continued reading of my thoughts. Sswonk (talk) 01:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Ditto. Republic of Ireland is not original research. It is a common name for the state and a natural disambiguator between the state and the broader topic/country/island. --RA (talk) 15:52, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Republic of Ireland is not the result of original research. GoodDay (talk) 14:16, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- "The incorrect decision has previously been upheld by original research" is more like it. We do all have another life, don't we? But how is that a valid reason to ignore facts placed in evidence meant to assist you in making decisions? The first paragraph may necessarily be a restatement of previous points, but that is because obviously the correct information has difficulty making it through. However, in the next two paragraphs above your comment you have new statements from me about the counterintuitive "other stuff" type reasoning and the "don't like brackets" rationale, both of which should have always been trumped by the combined core content policies of NPOV, verifiability and no original research. The primary reason for that is the local nature of the debates, which forced a poor title. I agree that it may take a few months to sway important editors, you among them. But, this isn't all meant for you and from time to time I will make these other types of observations. They're not meant to mess with your clock. Thanks though, Dmcq, I certainly will try to be less urgent sounding for you. Enjoy your time away. Sswonk (talk) 13:33, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Dear Sswonk. It's undoubtedly gack of me to say this since I agree with (almost) everything you've written, but your patience, tone and articulation are remarkable. Bravo. Dickdock (talk) 18:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
- Zowie Bowie is not his real name. See title of article. Peace and thank you. Sswonk (talk) 01:39, 20 October 2011 (UTC)
- Republic of Ireland is perfect for the job of disambiguation. I must also comment - it appears that Sswonk and Sswonk alone is the only editor who is constantly and lengthily trying to put forward a case for a name change. No-one else really seems to be as bothered as trying to put forward a case. Whilst i would commend you Sswonk for your patience and perserverence, you can only flog a dead horse for so long, and i am getting highly bored of it as you've changed no-one's opinion as far as i can tell. Maybe others feel the same, but at some stage unless a miracle happens, that horse is going to be flogged away to nothing. Mabuska (talk) 18:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'll try to translate from Sqeodic: "I am right. You are wasting your time. That is because, I am right. No one believes you. You are wrong. Go away. Therefore, I am right. Case closed." Is there a question in there, Mabuska? Because if you and BW and anyone else who wants Ireland back within the
empireunited kingdom of former rulers asks really nice, ... wait, what was that? Something about horses? Sswonk (talk) 00:42, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- I'll try to translate from Sqeodic: "I am right. You are wasting your time. That is because, I am right. No one believes you. You are wrong. Go away. Therefore, I am right. Case closed." Is there a question in there, Mabuska? Because if you and BW and anyone else who wants Ireland back within the
- Don't diss the horse! BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 19:23, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Dear Mabuska. After sleeping on it I still, unfortunately, can't resist. Two editors compliment another on his extraordinary work and this is your response: trivialize and isolate him. The text pathetically edited from third person to second to dissemble engagement. The snide "lengthily" and dismissive "bored". And that big, fat, unctuous, vomit-making, two-faced, slimy little "commend" right bang in the middle. Can there be higher levels of phony that still haven't been reached in this debate? Maybe, maybe not. Dickdock (talk) 14:16, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- -> WP:CIVILITY Dmcq (talk) 17:40, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
- Republic of Ireland is perfect for the job of disambiguation. I must also comment - it appears that Sswonk and Sswonk alone is the only editor who is constantly and lengthily trying to put forward a case for a name change. No-one else really seems to be as bothered as trying to put forward a case. Whilst i would commend you Sswonk for your patience and perserverence, you can only flog a dead horse for so long, and i am getting highly bored of it as you've changed no-one's opinion as far as i can tell. Maybe others feel the same, but at some stage unless a miracle happens, that horse is going to be flogged away to nothing. Mabuska (talk) 18:37, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
- Dear Sswonk. It's undoubtedly gack of me to say this since I agree with (almost) everything you've written, but your patience, tone and articulation are remarkable. Bravo. Dickdock (talk) 18:22, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
Temporary Move
One thing that might be considered (if it hasn't already in the past) is a temporary move to "Ireland (xxx)" for say, X months. This would enable us to gauge whether it's any improvement over the current situation or not. It would need some sort of assessment process after the X months, which could be tricky to organize and agree on and involve a significant amount of work, but might be worth a spin.
(Another thought, but I hesitate to express this as it might seem facetious, is to have some sort of name-sharing agreement, where for instance the article is named "Republic of Ireland" for six months of the year and "Ireland (xxx)" for the other. Or maybe alternate the months, hmmm...)
Dickdock (talk) 16:50, 22 October 2011 (UTC)
Wording on WP:RM
I read "Requests for arbitration/Ireland article names" and mentioned it at "Wikipedia talk:Requested moves#Ireland". A comment or two on whether it is still in forces and if so what would be appropriate wording would be appreciated. -- PBS (talk) 04:31, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- There's some discussion on this in the archives. Essentially ArbCom are happy for us to decide here. Their enforcement lasted 2 years and is now over. Fmph (talk) 07:51, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
- Please place comments at "Wikipedia talk:Requested moves#Ireland" rather than here, and perhaps someone would like to propose the brief wording that can be added to WP:RM, as I really think someone more actively involved with this project should take the lead on this. -- PBS (talk) 08:12, 24 October 2011 (UTC)