→How should we assess articles that have attained featured article status but require substantial cleanup?: new section Tag: New topic |
No edit summary Tags: Mobile edit Mobile web edit Advanced mobile edit |
||
Line 125: | Line 125: | ||
The [[Andrew Jackson]] article requires substantial cleanup (especially related to Indigenous issues), as described in ongoing discussion on [[Talk:Andrew_Jackson|its talk page]]. Following the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Article Assessment#Codes and meanings|article assessment guide]], I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Andrew_Jackson&diff=1102316807&oldid=1102315406&diffmode=source ranked] this article a "C," but another editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Andrew_Jackson&diff=1102385673&oldid=1102385353&diffmode=source changed] the ranking to "FA." I realized that the article assessment guide gives conflicting advice. How should we assess articles that have attained featured article status but still require substantial cleanup? [[User:FinnV3|FinnV3]] ([[User talk:FinnV3|talk]]) 04:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC) |
The [[Andrew Jackson]] article requires substantial cleanup (especially related to Indigenous issues), as described in ongoing discussion on [[Talk:Andrew_Jackson|its talk page]]. Following the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America/Article Assessment#Codes and meanings|article assessment guide]], I [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Andrew_Jackson&diff=1102316807&oldid=1102315406&diffmode=source ranked] this article a "C," but another editor [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Andrew_Jackson&diff=1102385673&oldid=1102385353&diffmode=source changed] the ranking to "FA." I realized that the article assessment guide gives conflicting advice. How should we assess articles that have attained featured article status but still require substantial cleanup? [[User:FinnV3|FinnV3]] ([[User talk:FinnV3|talk]]) 04:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC) |
||
There is the [[Wikipedia:Featured article review]] where you can bring that up for attention, no? [[User:Oncamera|<span style="color:#e0e0e0; font-family:georgia; background:#785673; letter-spacing: 1px;"> oncamera </span>]] <sub>[[User_Talk:Oncamera|<i style="color:#ad0076; font-family:georgia">(talk page)</i>]]</sub> 05:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:45, 7 August 2022
![]() | Indigenous peoples of North America NA‑class | ||||||
|
When is a Native American mound a pyramid?
Not many listed at Category:Pyramids in the United States. We have Platform mound, List of burial mounds in the United States which doesn't mention the word pyramid at all and has "burial mounds" as a redirect for Tumulus. Mound builders does talk about pyramids but not in the lead. This late 19th century source[1] calls them pyramids multiple times. My concern is whether our articles give Native Americans the credit they should have. Doug Weller talk 15:16, 16 May 2022 (UTC)
- This article advocating calling some mounds pyramids (Pluckhahn, Thomas J.; Thompson, Victor D.; Rink, W. Jack (April 2016). "Evidence for Stepped Pyramids of Shell in the Woodland Period of Eastern North America". American Antiquity. 81 (2): 345–363. doi:10.7183/0002-7316.81.2.345. JSTOR 24712753. S2CID 163464007 – via Academia.edu.) came to my attention a few months ago. - Donald Albury 11:36, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks. And it's free to download. Doug Weller talk 13:45, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
This draft was just accepted into mainspace. No doubt Marcia is notable for inclusion however, I wanted to focus on the Cherokee heritage portion of the article. When the draft was brought to us at Women in Red it read that she called herself "half-breed" which we all know as a derogatory term but also stated she was an elder of the EBCI. We found no official record of her being an elder or even claiming membership in the EBCI. It has been left in the article because it is directly correlated to the source but I think we are all struggling with it being in the article while not knowing if she was enrolled with the EBCI which would have been a basic requirement for being an elder. I did add our project template to the article but only because of her connection with the ethnomusicology of Native American music and not any purported heritage or connection with the EBCI. ARoseWolf 18:41, 20 May 2022 (UTC)--edited 18:42, 20 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm going over the sourcing but it looks to me like most of her claims need to be either called simply claims or removed for lack of reliable sourcing. Self-claims are insufficient for WP:NDNID. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 22:01, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- OK, I made some improvements. See article history and the talk page. The article is up for a GA review, so many people who have no idea of how to check and cite Native identity will be going over it. Folks, please add this to your watchlists and consider participating. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 22:38, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- Um, I'm not sure how to say this kindly, her claims are really out there. She was not EBCI and should not have made those claims, those claims being false they should not be in the article. Also the article reads a bit woo. While I understand the woo may come from sources, does the article really need to read that way? It feels very stereotypical, 'white view' to me. Indigenous girl (talk) 23:29, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- Has anyone actually looked through her collection at University of Maryland? There is a lot in there that would lead me to believe that everything she claimed knowledge in including medicines and the language was from books. And some of the books are questionable and certainly not something I would have in my collection as a reputable indigenous scholar. Indigenous girl (talk) 23:51, 22 May 2022 (UTC)
- Please, feel free to do cleanup on the article. I only looked at the major sources in the article, and don't think I've heard of her before RoseWolf posted here. Looking at what is coming up now... I'm concerned she was perpetuating a hoax. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 00:03, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- I'm noting that one of the main sources, that JStor bio written by a colleague, is full of shocking inaccuracies, such as calling her an elder. It's not a reliable source. I think the author is a friend who was duped by this person. She seems very unclear on Native issues, or she wouldn't have written some of the very odd things she did. I think things only sourced to that bio have to be cut, as she clearly believed her friend's self-claims (tall tales). - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 00:49, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for asking, User:ARoseWolf! In "George E. Herndon," The Asheville-Citizen Times, 20 December 1972, page 15, Marcia's father is identified as George Everett Herndon (1918–1972), born in North, South Carolina, and her mother is identified as Alma Loraine Simmons Herndon (1919–1990). Neither obituary mentions anything about being EBCI. I know, I know; it's hard to prove a negative and original research is not permitted on Wiki, but all four of Marcia's grandparents were white people born in South Carolina. Yuchitown (talk) 02:38, 23 May 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
- You all did an amazing job going through the sources and weeding out inaccuracies. Thank you CorbieVreccan, Indigenous girl, Yuchitown and anyone else that worked on the article as the result of my posting here. You did exactly as I had hoped and I appreciate each of you. I will say that no one writing the article meant any disrespect or insult in including anything in the article, least of which Susun who is an amazingly thoughtful person and a prolific writer, especially on women related topics. Sometimes you have to write what the sources say and then gather other perspectives and insights, through discussion and collaboration, to parse away things that don't belong. It can only serve to improve the encyclopedia when we do that, regardless of the outcomes. I appreciate our ability to assume good faith with each other while empathizing and understanding the unique perspectives we each have. This is truly an incredible wikiproject. Thanks again. --ARoseWolf 14:04, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for asking, User:ARoseWolf! In "George E. Herndon," The Asheville-Citizen Times, 20 December 1972, page 15, Marcia's father is identified as George Everett Herndon (1918–1972), born in North, South Carolina, and her mother is identified as Alma Loraine Simmons Herndon (1919–1990). Neither obituary mentions anything about being EBCI. I know, I know; it's hard to prove a negative and original research is not permitted on Wiki, but all four of Marcia's grandparents were white people born in South Carolina. Yuchitown (talk) 02:38, 23 May 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
Women in Red
Hello friends, just a note to say that next month WikiProject Women in Red has a focus on women from Greenland (& the Faroes), which may have some crossovers with your work here. We always welcome collaboration, details are on the event page. Many thanks Lajmmoore (talk) 10:17, 26 May 2022 (UTC)
Full of unsourced text. Once it's cleaned up, there won't be much there. Seems like whatever is usable would be best merged into another article, with a redirect or disambig at that name. Thoughts on where to put it? - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 19:21, 28 May 2022 (UTC)
- The only argument I can think of for trying to salvage this article (which could be quote short) is that it would be a place to discuss people of mixed Native and non-Native ancestry, instead of them adding irrelevant info to the Métis articles. Yuchitown (talk) 19:26, 28 May 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
Just wanted to let this group know this article is being considered for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Dahti Tsetso. Yuchitown (talk) 15:37, 31 May 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/5f/Ambox_warning_orange.svg/48px-Ambox_warning_orange.svg.png)
Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board, which is within the scope of this WikiProject, has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the [page]. Thank you. Poketama (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
Posting this here as I thought this WikiProject may have some useful input on whether Indigenous placenames should be included in the article lead and what other regions have considered. Thank you. Poketama (talk) 16:35, 31 May 2022 (UTC)
I went looking for such a template for a redirect and couldn't find one. Do you think it would be useful? RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 13:08, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Not sure what practical purpose this would serve, but please capitalize Indigenous if you move forward on this. Yuchitown (talk) 17:20, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
Indian Law Resource Center
I recently created a draft for the Indian Law Resource Center. Any help finding sourcing would be appreciated. Thank you, Thriley (talk) 21:58, 2 June 2022 (UTC)
- Cause IQ is a treasure trove of information for any nonprofit organization. Quite a few books with online previews mention the organization. Yuchitown (talk) 22:21, 2 June 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
Inuit or the Inuit
Looking for opinions and comments at Talk:Inuit#Inuit or the Inuit. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 06:28, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
The Taino people - ongoing or gone?
The page for Taino people has seen a significant amount of conflict that has been unresolved, and doesn't appear to have had any formal discussions, for over a decade. This is primarily around if Wikipedia should recognise the several groups who claim to be Taino in modern times. The conventional wisdom seems to be that the Taino have not existed as a people for hundreds of years; while the opposing view is that the Taino have either continued quietly or have reinvigorated a sleeping culture. Both have research and sources to back them up.
Even if it is readily demonstratable that the Taino are not a continuous culture and are instead represented by a sort of 'Neo-Taino' - this also warrants addressing in the article. As it stands, there are many people who claim to be Taino who attempt to edit Wikipedia or express themselves on the Talk page and are shut down. This isn't a very good look; and the controversy has led to an article that is confusing to a huge fault. For example: in the lead it says that the Taino 'were' a people, while in the article body it talks about many Taino communities; including one that received Federal Recognition in 2021 in the US Virgin Islands.
While the case of the expressed extinguishment of the Taino people would have been many generations before, from an Australian lens this doesn't seem enough to disqualify their legitimacy. Neither does, as one user said on the Talk:Taíno page, a requirement that they constantly speak Taino language, wear Taino clothes, or cook Taino food. This is not something that most people on reservations in the US do either.
I also am unsure of the claim that because they are not a registered tribe by the US Federal Government, they are not a tribe. This sets off a lot of red flags as I'm sure anyone with a cursory knowledge of colonialism would understand.
Following input from users here, I think an RfC on this issue may be necessary to resolve this long-standing conflict.
Disclaimer: My understanding of North American indigenous peoples is limited. I've done some research into the Taino to try to get my head around it but have not formed an opinion on the issue. I am focused on Australia, where there are not the concepts of 'blood-quantum', formal tribal rolls, or recognition of 'sovereign' tribes. So the situation is significantly different, and the general understanding in Australia is that an Australian Aboriginal person is any person with Aboriginal heritage no matter how distant. There's also not a significant number of people here who claim Aboriginal ancestry without it being truthful. All these issues appear to be near-opposite in the USA. Specifically in regards to the Taino, in Australia, significant movements to reinvigorate near-extinguished cultures have been hugely successful and have been seen as legitimate because they are run by people of descent from those groups, and with the understanding that their culture was extinguished by force during colonisation.
PS I have also posted this comment on Talk:Taíno. Poketama (talk) 04:32, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- @Poketama: Please see my response at Talk:Taíno#The Taino debate in 2022. Donald Albury 12:56, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Page Move Discussion Iroquois National Lacrosse Teams to Haudenosaunee National Lacrosse Teams
I have opened discussions on moving the following pages:
Iroquois men's national lacrosse team
Iroquois women's national lacrosse team
Iroquois men's national under-19 lacrosse team
Iroquois women's national under-19 lacrosse team
During the recent 2022 World Lacrosse Women's World Championship, press referred to the women's team as the "Haudenoseaunee" https://www.si.com/tv/lacrosse/2022/07/07/usa-vs-australia-womens-lacrosse-world-championship-semifinal-stream-free dashiellx (talk) 18:49, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Musicians
Seems like almost half the entries on List of Native American musicians were Canadian, so I created the List of Indigenous musicians in Canada. I'm not particularly familiar with Canadian Indigenous musicians (except Buffy St. Marie), so any help populating this list would be welcome! Yuchitown (talk) 15:40, 14 July 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
Accawmacke Indians of Virginia
Someone just added Accawmacke/Gingaskin Indians of Virginia's Eastern Shore to the List of unrecognized tribes here. I reverted the edit because it linked to this web page, which has a prominent section very near the top of the page asking for donations. Does anybody know anything about this group? I have no opinion on the legitiamcy of the group, but I do think the prominent request for donations falls, at least partly, under the provision "Links mainly intended to promote a website, including online petitions and crowdfunding pages. See Wikipedia:Spam § External link spamming" in WP:ELNO. Donald Albury 18:37, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- Hi, I just left a message on your talk page, but that group has appeared in a few newspaper articles, so I linked an article as opposed to their self-published, promotional website. In May, I overhauled the Accomac people article (Gingaskin redirects there) to reflect historical realities. Part of an ongoing effort to distinguish historical Native American tribes from contemporary nonprofits and other cultural heritage organizations. Trying to move these topics back to verifiable facts. Yuchitown (talk) 18:47, 29 July 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown
Requested move - American Indian elder
Discussion for American Indian elder to be renamed and moved to North American Indigenous elder. The article needs an overhaul, as well. - CorbieVreccan ☊ ☼ 19:07, 30 July 2022 (UTC)
The Andrew Jackson page could use some input from this community
The page for Andrew Jackson is technically a featured article, but it could really benefit from more indigenous perspectives. The current introduction describes Jackson as a hero of “democracy” and the “common man,” and an editor there is adamant that these aspects of white politics are more notable than his systematic ethnic cleansing. Seems like something people here would be interested in addressing? FinnV3 (talk) 19:37, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Just a note of warning for anyone that's thinking about stepping into this: I have gone round and round with one of these editors on multiple pages at this point related to U.S. history. They are not interested in Native perspectives in U.S. history unless it matches with their own perspective on U.S. history. For example, they have insisted on including articles like this one, or peer-reviewed work from the 1950's, on multiple U.S. history pages, but they've balked at including work from academics like Dina Gilio-Whitaker and Kyle Powys Whyte on the same pages because said academics are not "historians" or "scientists" (depending on the context in which their words are added to a page).
- Obviously this kind of stuff is an issue across wikipedia, but one of the editors involved here is particularly rough to deal with in this regard.--Hobomok (talk) 22:24, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I've been having issues with one editor in particular. I get the sense that his strategy is to be persistently unpleasant so that people will give up and he'll have a one-man consensus for his pro-ethnic-cleansing text. I'm going to try to be similarly persistent, but I could use all the help I can get. FinnV3 (talk) 12:28, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- FinnV3, please read Wikipedia:Canvassing. Contacting other editors in a manner intended to sway the outcome of the discussion is prohibited. Specifically, see the WP:APPNOTE section of that article which reads:
Notifications must be polite, neutrally worded...
Your writings here been neither respectful of editors disagreeing with you nor neutrally worded. I'm not going to formally complain now, both because you have not been warned before and because Hobomok's contributions to the discussion have been productive, but I warn you not to do this again. If you do, you can expect to be reported. Display name 99 (talk) 19:51, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
- FinnV3, please read Wikipedia:Canvassing. Contacting other editors in a manner intended to sway the outcome of the discussion is prohibited. Specifically, see the WP:APPNOTE section of that article which reads:
- Yes, I've been having issues with one editor in particular. I get the sense that his strategy is to be persistently unpleasant so that people will give up and he'll have a one-man consensus for his pro-ethnic-cleansing text. I'm going to try to be similarly persistent, but I could use all the help I can get. FinnV3 (talk) 12:28, 4 August 2022 (UTC)
RFC on whether the Taino people exist today
I'd appreciate your input on this topic to resolve some long disputed issues about modern Taino movements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Taíno#Request_for_Comment_on_Modern_Taino_Identity Poketama (talk) 22:45, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
How should we assess articles that have attained featured article status but require substantial cleanup?
The Andrew Jackson article requires substantial cleanup (especially related to Indigenous issues), as described in ongoing discussion on its talk page. Following the article assessment guide, I ranked this article a "C," but another editor changed the ranking to "FA." I realized that the article assessment guide gives conflicting advice. How should we assess articles that have attained featured article status but still require substantial cleanup? FinnV3 (talk) 04:15, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
There is the Wikipedia:Featured article review where you can bring that up for attention, no? oncamera (talk page) 05:45, 7 August 2022 (UTC)