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:::No argument there, but I had loaded those pages in such a way that I hid the criteria. But yet, someone still redirected them, which was not needed. [[User:Johnsmith2116|Johnsmith2116]] ([[User talk:Johnsmith2116|talk]]) 19:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC) |
:::No argument there, but I had loaded those pages in such a way that I hid the criteria. But yet, someone still redirected them, which was not needed. [[User:Johnsmith2116|Johnsmith2116]] ([[User talk:Johnsmith2116|talk]]) 19:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC) |
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:::: Once we also remove the other equally problematic (i.e. unreferenced because sources do not exist) content, e.g. "past champions" and "course" sections, we are left with nothing but dates and venue. This simply duplicates detail in the main articles and is insufficient for standalone articles. <sub>[[User:Wjemather|<span style="color:#0D5218">wjemather</span>]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Wjemather|<span style="color:#520D0D">please leave a message...</span>]]</sup> 19:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC) |
:::: Once we also remove the other equally problematic (i.e. unreferenced because sources do not exist) content, e.g. "past champions" and "course" sections, we are left with nothing but dates and venue. This simply duplicates detail in the main articles and is insufficient for standalone articles. <sub>[[User:Wjemather|<span style="color:#0D5218">wjemather</span>]]</sub><sup>[[User talk:Wjemather|<span style="color:#520D0D">please leave a message...</span>]]</sup> 19:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC) |
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== Essex County Country Club == |
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I recently made an article for [[Essex County Country Club]]. It is one of the oldest clubs in the United States. Feel free to add to it if you have access to more historical information. Thanks! [[User:Thriley|Thriley]] ([[User talk:Thriley|talk]]) 14:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC) |
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Welcome to the Wikiproject Golf talk page. This is the place for questions, answers, and telling the rest of the group some of your accomplishments. New members should put their name down in the appropriate spot on the main page. Comment away!
Korean Tour external link template
I'm thinking of creating a {{KoreanTour player}} template missing ID and not present in Wikidata. on the lines of the others at Wikipedia:WikiProject_Golf/Templates#External_link_templates. This would link through to http://kgt.co.kr/players/profile.aspx?man_code=nnnnnnnn , eg K. J. Choi would be http://kgt.co.kr/players/profile.aspx?man_code=00000190 . The only issue is that pages are in Korean but the "translate to English" in my Chrome browser is helpful, although occasionally obscure (eg height = 신장 is translated as kidney. The page contains a lot of good stuff. eg the second option (결과 = results) gives season by season results.
Format of tournament field sections
It seems from this "In the news" nomination that some feel the field sections of individual tournament articles is unwieldy and contravenes MOS:PSEUDOHEAD. There is a suggestion that this may result in opposition to these articles from appearing on ITN in future, despite there being no such criteria for inclusion. Looking for suggestions on how we can reformat without losing detail while improving readability/accessibility. wjematherplease leave a message... 09:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- From 2020 PGA Championship, it seems that a solution may be to split out the field, e.g. 2020 PGA Championship field, and replace with a short section describing how the field is made up, notable participants/withdrawls, etc. Thoughts? wjematherplease leave a message... 11:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- I've taken a look at 2020 PGA Championship and had a brief skim through the lengthy discussion in the In the News Nomination and it is my view that the changes that have been made to include a brief narrative on the field in the main article with a detailed list of the competitors in a separate article does improve the flow of the main article whilst retaining all of the former detail. For the avoidance of doubt I think it is important that we do retain this detail on Wikipedia.Tracland (talk) 13:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)
- The same approach has been taken with the 2020 U.S. Open (golf), with the full field being split into 2020 U.S. Open field. Should this now be the template for future majors, etc.? wjematherplease leave a message... 11:16, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- I suppose we could have 1 "field/qualification" article per year, covering all 4 majors. Someone created this: List of qualifiers for 2018 men's major golf tournaments. Personally I like the style of the current "field" section. Nigej (talk) 11:40, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- A comprehensive article covering the fields (including detailed criteria, etc.) of all four majors would possibly run into size issues (and need splitting) or have significant clarity/ambiguity/readability issues (as that 2018 article does). The issue with how field sections have been laid out previously is that is massively violates MOS, and often takes focus away from the main subject when all details are included in the main article. Another alternative would be something line 2020 ANA Inspiration, which retains all detail in the main article. wjematherplease leave a message... 12:15, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- If we have to change from how we've done it in the past, I'd much prefer just splitting each major's qualifiers off into a separate article (I just saw how you've formatted the U.S. Open one, and I really like it). The "List of qualifiers..." article is awkward, especially with the "Primary means of qualification. Notes on performance." column. The ANA format leaves a lot out that I (and presumably others) would consider important. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 17:50, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed, I think that the List of qualifiers for 2018 men's major golf tournaments can probably be deleted. Nigej (talk) 18:00, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- There doesn't seem to be a source with a breakdown of the categories players qualified under for the ANA. wjematherplease leave a message... 19:25, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Does [this https://www.lpga.com/tournaments/ana-inspiration/tournament-entries] work? I haven't looked it over. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 19:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, I wasn't clear – sources only seem to give the first category under which they qualify, not the full breakdown. wjematherplease leave a message... 19:36, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Does [this https://www.lpga.com/tournaments/ana-inspiration/tournament-entries] work? I haven't looked it over. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 19:33, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- If we have to change from how we've done it in the past, I'd much prefer just splitting each major's qualifiers off into a separate article (I just saw how you've formatted the U.S. Open one, and I really like it). The "List of qualifiers..." article is awkward, especially with the "Primary means of qualification. Notes on performance." column. The ANA format leaves a lot out that I (and presumably others) would consider important. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 17:50, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- A comprehensive article covering the fields (including detailed criteria, etc.) of all four majors would possibly run into size issues (and need splitting) or have significant clarity/ambiguity/readability issues (as that 2018 article does). The issue with how field sections have been laid out previously is that is massively violates MOS, and often takes focus away from the main subject when all details are included in the main article. Another alternative would be something line 2020 ANA Inspiration, which retains all detail in the main article. wjematherplease leave a message... 12:15, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- I suppose we could have 1 "field/qualification" article per year, covering all 4 majors. Someone created this: List of qualifiers for 2018 men's major golf tournaments. Personally I like the style of the current "field" section. Nigej (talk) 11:40, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
I'm toying with the idea of changing the "additional categories" from parentheses to superscripts. This would enable different information to appear in parentheses without confusion, as in Category 27. Thoughts on this? pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 18:50, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
- Superscripts may also be unclear with all the notes and references. I've added the ordinals, which may help? wjematherplease leave a message... 19:25, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
Tournament names in result tables
We always drop presenting sponsors from tournament names in tour season articles (e.g. Memorial Tournament rather than the Memorial Tournament presented by Nationwide). How does everyone feel regarding "at [name of course]" or similar? My personal preference – which I've acted on in many occasions – would be to drop that on most occasions (CJ Cup @ Nine Bridges, Michelob Championship at Kingsmill, U.S. Bank Championship in Milwaukee, etc.) and only keep it when it's necessary for disambiguation (Chrysler Classic of Tucson vs. Chrysler Classic of Greensboro) or the tournament name doesn't work without it (A Military Tribute at the Greenbrier, U.S. Bank in Milwaukee). pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 22:23, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
- Agree. Reliable sources should lead us, and there seem to be only a few exceptions where the venue is almost always included. wjematherplease leave a message... 08:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Pre-2003 Senior British Open
Originally, I thought only Senior British Opens from 2003 onwards only counted as senior major championships and official wins on PGA Tour Champions, and editions pre-2003 were regular European Senior Tour wins only. However, while looking at Gary Players' PGA Tour profile his 3 Senior British Opens in 1988, 1990 and 1997 were counted as Senior PGA Tour wins, giving him a total of 22 wins rather than 19 as we have on WP. What do we make of this and are the earlier editions now counted as official wins and are they now considered to be senior majors? Thanks Jimmymci234 (talk) 10:46, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- Think I recall reading somewhere about Player lobbying the tour to have his Senior Open wins recognised as Champions Tour/senior major wins. I expect there should be a source somewhere to confirm the change. wjematherplease leave a message... 10:56, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- see https://garyplayer.com/gary-players-senior-british-open-championship-victories-recognized-as-majors-by-the-pga-tour-in-usa/ Nigej (talk) 11:08, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- This was briefly discussed here - Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive 6#Gary Player and the Senior British Open. Think quite a few pages need updating. Jopal22 (talk) 12:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- The PGA Tour now recognizes Bob Charles two Senior British Open wins as official per his PGA tour webpage[1]. Player's page has been changed. Now the page for Charles has to be redone also.
- Which raised another point. Player's first SBO win was 1987, the second year of the tournament. Charles first SBO win was 1988. PGA made their wins official, it should be the same for all SBO champs. A bunch of pages are therefore in need of modifying....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 15:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
- This was briefly discussed here - Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Golf/Archive 6#Gary Player and the Senior British Open. Think quite a few pages need updating. Jopal22 (talk) 12:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
European Senior Tour new name
With the announcement that the European Senior Tour is now changing their name to the 'Legends Tour', this causes a conflict as the Senior Ladies Tour is called that as well. How do we move the page name and disambiguate it between the Senior Ladies Tour? Jimmymci234 (talk) 15:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- Seem pretty odd to me having two tour with the same name. Anyway, for now I suggest we keep the same name for European Senior Tour. After all there's no hurry. Nigej (talk) 15:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
- At present, "European Senior Tour" remains the WP:COMMONNAME and the US-ladies circuit remains the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for "Legends Tour", so we should probably keep the articles where they are and reassess in a few years. I've also added a hatnote to Legends Tour. wjematherplease leave a message... 16:12, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/12520960 shows that the legal name is "European Legends Tour Limited", and perhaps that gives a possible future name of European Legends Tour, should that be commonly used in the future. I certainly suggest we leave Legends Tour as the LPGA tour for now. Nigej (talk) 16:23, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
Full 2020-21 PGA Tour Schedule published
Noticed that the PGA Tour have published the full schedule for 2020-21 today [2].
2020 ANA Inspiration
I am wondering why no one has updated the details of the field in this LPGA Major after it was released on September 4. I have a link which lists the final field here: https://golfweek.usatoday.com/2020/09/04/ana-inspiration-major-field-105-dinah-shore/ Also the 2019 winner will not be competing in this year's event.
Notability of golf clubs and courses
Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts on the notability of golf clubs and courses. Category:Golf clubs and courses has some 1,400 clubs and courses. As a comparison there are some 40,000 golf clubs in the world, and many more defunct ones. Of our 1,400, roughly 750 are in the US, 300 in UK/Ireland, 80 in Canada, 50 in Australia and about 200 in the rest of the world. Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Golf/archive shows that clubs/courses come up regularly at WP:AfD and mostly get deleted. I'm sure that there are plenty of others that probably would be deleted if there were AfDs; Achasta Golf Club is an example. We also have a few lists like List of golf courses in the United Kingdom, List of golf courses in Canada and List of golf courses designed by Jack Nicklaus which are generally poorly maintained and seem outside our scope. I was just wondering if we might have produce some agreed criteria as to what makes a course/club notable, or whether such a thing is impossible and we should just carry on treating each AfD separately. Nigej (talk) 09:32, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- I would say if a course has held a major (mens/womens/senior), or a tournament sanctioned by the major golf tours then it is notable, otherwise it would have to meet to general notability guidelines of having significant media coverage. Jopal22 (talk) 12:09, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- That's my own view. Generally notable courses host notable tournaments. When I look through the Australian list, for instance, the courses that stand out as clearly notable have hosted the Australian Open (golf). It also makes sense from an encyclopedia point of view: tournament articles generally link to the venue. Nigej (talk) 12:25, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think Trump International Golf Links, Scotland is an example of a course that hasn't hosted a tournament, but the page can be justified based on notable coverage in the medis. Jopal22 (talk) 12:45, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- Also courses like Royal Dornoch Golf Club should be included, so maybe a "ranked highly in a major golf publication" should also be a reason. Jopal22 (talk) 12:49, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- That's my own view. Generally notable courses host notable tournaments. When I look through the Australian list, for instance, the courses that stand out as clearly notable have hosted the Australian Open (golf). It also makes sense from an encyclopedia point of view: tournament articles generally link to the venue. Nigej (talk) 12:25, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- As far as a guideline goes, we would need to be reasonably sure the majority would meet GNG (I'm aware different people have different ideas about how sure, range 51%–95%). As such, I think we'd probably have to limit to majors (men's, LPGA, Champions), WGCs, World/Ryder/Solheim/Walker/Curtis Cups, Olympics, regular (as in frequent) stops on the PGA Tour and European Tour, and hosts of flagship events on the Australasian and Sunshine Tours (and maybe a few others). I don't think we need to worry too much about other clubs/courses that easily meet GNG (such as most well known/highly rated courses) unless we have a specific publication(s) in mind. wjematherplease leave a message... 13:55, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, we have a current AfD of Deer Creek Golf Course. This hosted the Deer Creek Open on the 1990 Ben Hogan Tour (the first season of that tour), but personally I wouldn't think that sufficient for our purposes.
- This might also be interesting and relevant to this debate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Event_Venues/Sports_task_force/Notability#Golf_courses). My view is along the lines of the above but with the view that anything that has hosted a European Tour or PGA Tour event should be considered to be notable and that certain other courses should be notable based on historical reasons, high ratings (e.g. in world's top 100 by a reliable golf magazine), or where they have hosted significant amateur tournaments (e.g. walker cup, the amateur championship, US amateur).Tracland (talk)
The first two sections of Notability#Golf_courses are a good starting point for debate but the final section: "Has won some sort of award related to golf courses" is clearly much too vague to be useful. If we're following on the lines of WP:NSPORT (which primarily relates to biographies) we should be aiming for criteria that mean that it is highly likely that the club/course is notable. My main worry at the moment is that well-meaning editors add articles for rather run-of-the-mill clubs/courses where the general consensus (from many previous AfDs) is that most of these are not notable. As with NSPORT, failing the criteria wouldn't mean it's not notable, and vice-versa (passing wouldn't mean notability), it would just provide a easy-to-define starting position for debate. The Sports task force seems to be inactive so I'm thinking we could change the Notability#Golf_courses criteria to something we agree here. Personally I'm a little nervous about "world's top 100", and the like. I'd rather leave that sort of thing out and leave it to individual debate at AfD (if it came to that). Nigej (talk) 15:37, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
- Agree – top-100 is probably too loose anyway, and at the top end (top-20 or so) ratings tend to be broadly similar across the major publications, and there's very few of them that haven't held major tournaments at some point. wjematherplease leave a message... 16:21, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Discussion notice
Opinions sought at Talk:U.S. Open (golf)#Addition of current broadcast information. Thanks. wjematherplease leave a message... 15:26, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
Nationalities in the field
The "Nationalities in the field" section that has crept through various individual tournament articles seems to reflect something that is not (AFAIK) routinely (if ever) reported upon and as such cannot be reliably sourced; nor can we verify it's significance, if there is any. As such, it seems nothing more than meaningless stat cruft and a violation WP:NOTSTATS. Also, while it may be nothing more than a counting exercise, it is enormously tedious to verify, and possibly borders on WP:Original research. It's worth noting that consensus has agreed that such tables are not added to other sports articles, e.g. tennis. Thoughts? wjematherplease leave a message... 19:46, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
- I've never seen the necessity of it (similar to the "Past champions in the field" section which is in the process of being phased out). pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 20:41, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
- They do also have it for the darts 2020 PDC World Darts Championship#Representation. Jopal22 (talk) 21:22, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
- Yikes! wjematherplease leave a message... 22:33, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
- We have own examples at 2019_WGC-Dell_Technologies_Match_Play#Breakdown by country etc. Nigej (talk) 05:19, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- They do also have it for the darts 2020 PDC World Darts Championship#Representation. Jopal22 (talk) 21:22, 14 September 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed. Perhaps doesn't serve much of a useful purpose in an individual sport. Nigej (talk) 05:11, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note for they olympics we have it represented by a table and maps Golf at the 2016 Summer Olympics#Participating nations Golf at the 2016 Summer Olympics – Men's individual#Participating nations Jopal22 (talk) 11:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- The Olympics is a special case as players are representing their countries, with nationality a big factor in determining participation, and it's something that has been reported in mainstream media (so easily verifiable [3]). As such, I would exclude that (and other such tournaments) from the proposal to remove these tables. wjematherplease leave a message... 11:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- However, we are one of those sports "where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality" (to quote WP:INFOBOXFLAG) and, as such, the table is simply a summary of the available information on the leaderboard. Nigej (talk) 14:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- True, but it seems no-one outside of WikiPedia is counting those flags. Could this therefore not also violate WP:UNDUE? wjematherplease leave a message... 14:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- My opinion is that summarising information in wikipedia in a table is fine, and does not break wikipedia rules. I am not overly attached to it, but do sometimes like seeing a summary, although I prefer the darts format (albeit with only one row) as think that would take up less space. Jopal22 (talk) 16:09, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- True, but it seems no-one outside of WikiPedia is counting those flags. Could this therefore not also violate WP:UNDUE? wjematherplease leave a message... 14:34, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- However, we are one of those sports "where national flags are commonly used as representations of sporting nationality" (to quote WP:INFOBOXFLAG) and, as such, the table is simply a summary of the available information on the leaderboard. Nigej (talk) 14:22, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- The Olympics is a special case as players are representing their countries, with nationality a big factor in determining participation, and it's something that has been reported in mainstream media (so easily verifiable [3]). As such, I would exclude that (and other such tournaments) from the proposal to remove these tables. wjematherplease leave a message... 11:46, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Note for they olympics we have it represented by a table and maps Golf at the 2016 Summer Olympics#Participating nations Golf at the 2016 Summer Olympics – Men's individual#Participating nations Jopal22 (talk) 11:35, 15 September 2020 (UTC)
- Its literally a list of flag with numbers beside them with no context. Golfers do not represent their countries in these tournaments. For those tournaments where countries are being represented, the list would be fine. Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 22:38, 17 September 2020 (UTC)
Medal table in infobox
Currently we don't support medal details in the {{Infobox golfer}} template. Justin Rose, for instance, has a separate box below the infobox golfer. We would need to change:
| below = {{#if:{{{awardssection|}}}|''(For a full list of awards, see [[{{{awardssection}}}|here]])''}}
to:
| data63 = {{#if:{{{awardssection|}}}|''(For a full list of awards, see [[{{{awardssection}}}|here]])''}} | header64 = {{Infobox medal templates | title = {{{medaltemplates-title|}}} | medals = {{{medaltemplates|}}} | expand = {{#ifeq:{{lc:{{{show-medals}}}}}|no||yes}} }}
See:{{Infobox golfer/testcases}} where I've added Rose's medal to the end of Tiger Woods (1st testcase, for simplicity):
| medaltemplates = {{MedalCountry | {{GBR2}} }} {{MedalCompetition|[[Golf at the Summer Olympics|Olympic Games]]}} {{MedalGold|[[2016 Summer Olympics|2016 Rio de Janeiro]]|[[Golf at the 2016 Summer Olympics – Men's individual|Golf]]}}
Options available (which we have the option of not including):
| show-medals = no (default is yes) | medaltemplates-title = zzzzzzz (default is "Medal record")
Compare with Justin Rose article. Nigej (talk) 18:35, 23 September 2020 (UTC)
- Done a survey. We have about 100 of these boxes (covering Olympics, Youth Olympics, Asian games, Southeast Asian games, Pan American games, Summer Universiade, Mediterranean games, European Golf Team Championships, Maccabiah Games, Deaflympics). Most (like Rose) use {{MedalBox}}. Some use the {{MedalTableTop}} (eg Daniel Sawyer, but some of these also with {{MedalBottom}}, eg Allen John, which is deprecated) and some use {{MedalTop}} (eg Douglass Cadwallader, this is also deprecated). MedalTableTop is an infobox whereas MedalBox is more meant for mid-article use. Nigej (talk) 09:30, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- It takes up an awful lot of space, giving it WP:UNDUE prominence. Are we able to incorporate just {{medal}} with bespoke coding for other values? I'd investigate myself, but it's nearly ten years since I created the templates and it may take a while to refamiliarise myself! wjematherplease leave a message... 09:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- I take your point, since medals are not the most important thing in golf. One option is to hide the medals (like eg Chris Froome), reducing the impact. I've changed the {{Infobox golfer/testcases}} so that the Medal record is hidden by default. Another option is to just stick with MedalBox as our preferred method. Nigej (talk) 10:11, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- Hidden is better; looks ok. wjematherplease leave a message... 10:23, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- I take your point, since medals are not the most important thing in golf. One option is to hide the medals (like eg Chris Froome), reducing the impact. I've changed the {{Infobox golfer/testcases}} so that the Medal record is hidden by default. Another option is to just stick with MedalBox as our preferred method. Nigej (talk) 10:11, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
- It takes up an awful lot of space, giving it WP:UNDUE prominence. Are we able to incorporate just {{medal}} with bespoke coding for other values? I'd investigate myself, but it's nearly ten years since I created the templates and it may take a while to refamiliarise myself! wjematherplease leave a message... 09:43, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
Informal move request Rafa Cabrera-Bello
In case you missed it, there was an informal move request of Rafa Cabrera-Bello to Rafa Cabrera Bello. See Talk:Rafa Cabrera-Bello#Move Request. Nigej (talk) 12:36, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
John Catlin (golfer)
I have moved the previous John Catlin to John Catlin (politician) and created a WP:DAB article at John Catlin. The golfer has had 50 times more hits since his article was created in July (see page view stats) and, realistically, an even higher ratio about that, since many of the John Catlin hits are people looking for the golfer. Currently, however, it's a little difficult to argue that the golfer is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC since the article was created so recently. WP:2DABPRIMARY gives some advice "From a utilitarian perspective, WP:PRIMARYTOPIC should be have a different (i.e., lower) standard in WP:TWODABS cases." but "WP:RECENTISM applies, and Wikipedia does not move articles around on the basis of what is temporarily popular/notorious right now, which may result in sharp but short-lived pageview and news-coverage spikes." However, the politician is so obscure I'm wondering whether there is an argument that the golfer is the primary topic. Nigej (talk) 12:18, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- I think it's too early to say that the golfer is the PT, and it's likely he will be just as obscure as the politician without further successes. As you've done it seems about right. wjematherplease leave a message... 13:00, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- One merit of the current setup is that it'll be clear in the coming months how many are looking for each; previously it wasn't obvious how many of the politician's hits were people really looking for him. Nigej (talk) 14:40, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
- I agree entirely with the suggestion. There is nothing to date which suggests that the golfer will necessarily become the PT in the long term (recent hits will likely be due to recent performances). If it is clear that this has changed then we can look to move at a later date. But making the golfer the PT now would be too soon.Tracland (talk) 05:56, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
- One merit of the current setup is that it'll be clear in the coming months how many are looking for each; previously it wasn't obvious how many of the politician's hits were people really looking for him. Nigej (talk) 14:40, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
J. J. Taylor
There is a move request at J. J. Taylor which you may be interested in. Originally J. J. Taylor was a redirect to Jack Taylor (golfer). Nigej (talk) 06:34, 29 September 2020 (UTC)
Graham Marsh's "win" at the Bay Classic
Under Graham Marsh's "Other Australasian wins" section it says he allegedly won the "19?? Bay Classic (Not listed on PGA Tour bio, year unknown)." This has been up there forever with no verification that he won this event (whatever it is). I think it should be deleted but would like additional opinions for further information on this alleged event.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:28, 3 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Appears on his own website http://www.gmgd.com.au/tournaments.php without a date. Nigej (talk) 06:45, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- Having failed again to work out what this refers to, I suggest we remove it. Nigej (talk) 10:00, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- Given that the wins on Marsh's website are largely in chronological order, it would suggest late 1983. However, as there were no gaps in the schedule, it could possibly be a duplication of the Gold Coast win? wjematherplease leave a message... 10:18, 4 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes the guy who designed Marsh's website could be conflating it with the Gold Coast event or the NZ PGA (held near the "Bay of Plenty"). I don't know of any other event he won in between (only a 5 week timespan in 1983). I will get rid of it. Thank you for your help.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 18:25, 5 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
New Zealand PGA Championship
I added a "Tour" column to the New Zealand PGA Championship. However separate tables that were created to distinguish when the event was played on a particular tour still exist. (I don't know how to combine these tables.) If someone could combine these tables, including the match play table, that would be great. Thanks!
Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:43, 5 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Please note — entries in the tour column should either link to the relevant season article (where one exists) or not be linked; linking to the tour serves no purpose. wjematherplease leave a message... 19:58, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry about that - I knew that. Just fixed it. I did include links where the tour is mentioned for the first time. Thought that may be necessary.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:05, 5 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Please see the changes made at Kirin Open for an example of what was meant. wjematherplease leave a message... 22:50, 5 October 2020 (UTC)
- Oh, sorry once again! I got it! Thank you for your help. I will make sure to do it this way in the future.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:22, 6 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Kurt Cox
I am trying to publish the page of golfer Kurt Cox however I am having trouble. It is under this URL: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Oogglywoogly/Kurt_Cox. There is no "Publish Page" button as far as I can tell. Can anyone help?
Oogglywoogly (talk) 00:54, 8 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- You'll need to cut and paste it to Kurt Cox first. Nigej (talk) 05:14, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- Probably could do with the prose being a bit less WP:FLOWERY; e.g. replace phrases like "played excellently" with "had success" (it's not unusual to have success without playing well). wjematherplease leave a message... 09:40, 8 October 2020 (UTC)
- The page is up. If you have any information about his guy's career in the 1970s please add (maybe some Q-school stuff). Can't find anything.
- Ok, I changed "excellent" to "success." I try my best to avoid "flowery," descriptive prose. However, sometimes it may come out to avoid redundant language. For example, I might write "In the 3rd round Smith shot a 67 (-3) to place in the top 5. On Sunday he fired a 68 to finish in a tie for fourth." Rather than a more redundant sentence like: "In the 3rd round Smith shot a 67 (-3) to put himself in a tie for 4th. In the 4th round he shot a 68 (-2) to finish in tie for fourth." Thoughts?
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:53, 8 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
"World ranking" sections in lady golfers articles
We have quite a few "World ranking" (or World rank) sections in lady golfers articles. eg Kim Sei-young#World rank. 46 by my count. They mostly consist of year-end rankings. Personally I'm struggling to see the point. There's a ref given for each entry. However, the "Form Table" at https://www.rolexrankings.com/players/4110 lists them in one place (year end rank column). In any case it's not immediately obvious why we need this. We seem to be simply replicating something readily available in www.rolexrankings.com Personally I'd be happy to delete them all. Nigej (talk) 15:00, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Christel Boeljon, Carlota Ciganda, Paula Creamer, Jodi Ewart Shadoff, Shanshan Feng, Sandra Gal, Natalie Gulbis, Caroline Hedwall, Brooke Henderson, Ariya Jutanugarn, Danielle Kang, Cristie Kerr, Kim Sei-young, Ko Jin-young, Jessica Korda, Nelly Korda, Brittany Lang, Lee Jeong-eun (golfer, born 1996), Alison Lee, Minjee Lee, Stacy Lewis, Pernilla Lindberg, Caroline Masson, Catriona Matthew, Ai Miyazato, Mika Miyazato, Azahara Muñoz, Anna Nordqvist, Ryann O'Toole, Pak Se-ri, Inbee Park, Suzann Pettersen, Gerina Piller, Morgan Pressel, Beatriz Recari, Mel Reid, Ryu So-yeon, Lizette Salas, Jiyai Shin, Mariah Stackhouse, Angela Stanford, Annika Sörenstam, Lexi Thompson, Yani Tseng, Karrie Webb, Michelle Wie
- We edit to provide encyclopedic information, for which the OWGR is a relevant, conspicuous metric informative for common users. I don't see a basis for the objection. Zefr (talk) 15:06, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a mirror of indiscriminate statistics (even though many sports related articles seem to look that way). Threshold for inclusion should be widespread discussion of such things by independent reliable sources in the context of the individual player – which would confirm relevance and importance – as that is not the case with year-end rankings on an individual basis, we probably should not be including them. wjematherplease leave a message... 15:20, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- The world rankings are, indeed, a useful metric. However, a table simply listing year-end rankings which are readily available on the official site (for which we provide a link), is not providing anything very useful. Lydia Ko#World ranking (missed from the above list) does actually contain some additional information, but this is a rare exception. Nigej (talk) 15:37, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Annual year-end ranks over a career for one player provide a snapshot of progress among peers, and a current year rank is commonly used to compare players in the dynamics of competition. The Rolex rankings are globally accepted, which indicates they are not an "indiscriminate statistic", but rather a reliable benchmark for the LPGA industry discussed in all major golf and news coverage. All pro golf standings in tournaments and world rankings are "readily available", while adhering to WP:RS; it's unclear what Wjemather objects to for source quality. Let's keep focused on the big picture, WP:5P: world rankings are encyclopedic, neutral, and up-to-date when maintained throughout the pro season. The golf project should be more collaborative in maintaining at least the top 20 on individual articles week by week during the current season. Think first of the common user who may not be accessing the Rolex site for information - the table provides that quick informative summary. Zefr (talk) 16:02, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- My 2 cents, I agree with Zefr Jopal22 (talk) 16:37, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- I made no mention of quality, it is the context that is important. There are thousands of stats we could reliably verify – but we don't include them because WP:NOT clearly legislates against indiscriminate statistics and mirroring of information readily available elsewhere. Ultimately we set criteria for inclusion – and it makes sense to follow what independent reliable sources (i.e. not rankings or tour websites) routinely report on, and the context in which they report it. Unless such sources (e.g. a golf publications or mainstream news/sports publications) cite year-by-year year-end end rankings in the context of the individual (as presented in these articles), not just a year end list of many/all players – and I haven't seen any evidence that they do – then it probably isn't a worthwhile inclusion. wjematherplease leave a message... 17:03, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- Annual year-end ranks over a career for one player provide a snapshot of progress among peers, and a current year rank is commonly used to compare players in the dynamics of competition. The Rolex rankings are globally accepted, which indicates they are not an "indiscriminate statistic", but rather a reliable benchmark for the LPGA industry discussed in all major golf and news coverage. All pro golf standings in tournaments and world rankings are "readily available", while adhering to WP:RS; it's unclear what Wjemather objects to for source quality. Let's keep focused on the big picture, WP:5P: world rankings are encyclopedic, neutral, and up-to-date when maintained throughout the pro season. The golf project should be more collaborative in maintaining at least the top 20 on individual articles week by week during the current season. Think first of the common user who may not be accessing the Rolex site for information - the table provides that quick informative summary. Zefr (talk) 16:02, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
- We edit to provide encyclopedic information, for which the OWGR is a relevant, conspicuous metric informative for common users. I don't see a basis for the objection. Zefr (talk) 15:06, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
An issue with citations
I have an issue with linking a particular citation with the relevant newspaper article. Here is the process:
I go to Google News Archive and find the relevant article. I then click on the relevant article heading and create the citation. However, after this is all complete, when you click on the citation link it directs you to page 1 of that day's newspaper, not the appropriate article (usually in the middle of that's day newspaper). It makes it very difficult for the reader as he or she has to scroll through the entire newspaper to find the relevant article.
I have two examples of this:
- on George Serhan's page with the sentence, "The following year he finished in 6th place at the 1985 Australian Open, tied with Tom Watson and Mike Harwood." Check the citation link. This is a classic example.
- on the 1980 Masters Tournament page with the sentence that begins with "Greg Norman was invited to play..." This is a little different in that I copied that citation from Paul Foley's page that referenced an article about his victory in some event, rather than the 1980 Masters article on the other page. However, when creating my citation I did highlight the title of the 1980 Masters article on the other side of the page ("Henry turns pro..."). Nonetheless, the citation link reverts to the Paul Foley article.
Can anyone help?
Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:02, 15 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- @Oogglywoogly: Done – I'm guessing you forgot to click "link to article" first? BTW, the 1980 article on Norman is referring to the Australian Masters (28 Feb–2 Mar) which clashed with the HK Open (i.e. not the US Masters) so I've just removed that statement. wjematherplease leave a message... 22:02, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes. Clicking on the article header (goes blue - generally) is not sufficient. You need to click on "link to article" (rhs) first, then click on the article header. You can then ctrl-C to copy it and ctrl-V to paste it into your article. Of course, sometimes the header doesn't go blue and you have to wander round finding something that does go blue. Nigej (talk) 06:16, 16 October 2020 (UTC)
- Ok thanks! I will refer to this next time I try to create a citation using Google News Archive.
- Also, you must be right about Norman skipping the Australian Masters. The event was held the same date as the HK event. The (US) Masters is always held in April. Now that I am aware of it, it is a bit odd to think Norman and Ginn would skip their first appearance at the Masters for an event on the AGC...
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:32, 16 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Circular reference on The Open Championship format and qualification
One of the main sources of this article is this link, which on further inspection is copied directly from the Open Championship article as of July 17, 2017. pʰeːnuːmuː → pʰiːnyːmyː → ɸinimi → fiɲimi 07:13, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Good spot. Removed now. wjematherplease leave a message... 08:10, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
South African search engine
Good afternoon folks,
I was wondering if you guys knew of a South African newspaper search engine. Trove and the Singapore search engine have helped immeasurably. A South African one would surely make it much easier to create SA-golfer related pages.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:10, 17 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Don't know of one. Papers Past is excellent for New Zealand, although it only goes up to 1950. https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ Nigej (talk) 20:22, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah I’ve had a look around for one before but had no luck. It would be great if there were ones available. Jimmymci234 (talk) 21:05, 17 October 2020 (UTC)
- Nothing historical. A couple of newspapers have online archives, but they don't go back far (i.e. nothing pre-Internet age) and the search facilities are generally awful. wjematherplease leave a message... 11:29, 18 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your help guys. Looks like we're out of luck for SA.
- Will be sure to use Past Papers in the future. I intend to make some profiles of early century NZ Open champs so it will sure come in handy.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:18, 21 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Caddie Hall of Fame
I've moved List of Caddie Hall of Fame inductees to Caddie Hall of Fame. I've also removed quite a few links to it from "See also" sections. It seems to me to be a strange hall of fame, since many of the inductees seem to have only got a tenuous link with caddieing. I've combined the annual inductees tables into one. Honestly, I'm thinking the list could be trimmed more, to just a bare list: name + year. This is especially the case since the "Awards and other induction citations" column is generally an exact copy of what used to be on their web site: see eg https://web.archive.org/web/20150714222744/http://www.wgaesf.org/site/c.dwJTKiO0JgI8G/b.8558121/k.4AD6/The_Caddie_Hall_of_Fame.htm Nigej (talk) 11:15, 20 October 2020 (UTC)
Jean-Louis Guepy
I recently created a page for Jean-Louis Guepy. I have a couple issues however...
1) When I found him on Wikipedia using my iPhone the label says "Jean-Louis Guepy, English golfer." Unless there is something wild I don't know about he should be labeled "French golfer" (or maybe "New Caledonian golfer"). "English golfer" is almost certainly a mistake. However I don't know how to fix the matter. Does anyone know how?
2) I found a decent amount of info on the guy but - quite surprisingly - nothing on Trove. Geupy is from New Caledonia (an island in between Australia and New Zealand) and played extensively in the PGA Tour of Australasia. I know Trove focuses more on old stuff and Geupy played mainly the in '90s... but still... nothing?? Not sure if anyone could help me on that regard.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:39, 20 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- 1 No idea about that. Nothing to do with Wikipedia. 2. see https://trove.nla.gov.au/search/category/newspapers?keyword=%22guepy%22&sortBy=dateDesc The main Trove sources for later years is The Canberra Times but that dies out at the end of 1995. Looks like it is Guépy in the French; which we normally follow. Nigej (talk) 07:16, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
- 1) It was fixed shortly after I sent out the last message. Jimmymci234, did you fix it? I noticed you were editing his page around the time it was fixed.
- 2) Thank you Nigej for your Trove link! I guess I will try searches with the last name in quotes. Before I always seemed to have success with just trying the name. Also, I will make sure to use the name with the accent. I just copied and replaced on his main page.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 22:14, 21 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
No don’t think that was me. Jimmymci234 (talk) 05:48, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
PGA Tour priority list
Last year I created a page outlining the priority listing on the PGA Tour. This has again been created for the 2020-2021 season. I thought these would be a useful addition to wikipedia. They have been nominated for deletion though by another Wikiproject Golf member. If you have an opinion either way please leave it on the deletion page Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2020-21 PGA Tour priority ranking Jopal22 (talk) 22:45, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Western Samoan Open
I was looking to create a page on this event.
When I was creating the page of George Serhan I discovered that he won the "Samoan Open" in 1979. Here is the link.
Also, it states on this link that New Zealand golfer Barry Vivian won an event in "Western Samoa" during the 1970s.
Not necessarily sure if Serhan and Vivian won the same event. But any more information or clarification would be helpful.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:02, 29 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Both those sources are incidental mentions, so would not be enough to establish notability. We need significant coverage of the tournament itself in order to justify creating an article. wjematherplease leave a message... 12:49, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Yes I know - the whole reason I created this post was because I thought I had inadequate information.
- I did get a little information in the meantime. On the wiki page of Roger Mackay it states that he won the "1984 American Samoan Open." On the page of Mike Harwood it states he won the "1984 Western Samoan Open." Obviously, given the years, we may not be talking about the same event with these guys.
- Otherwise, couldn't find anything on Trove or NewspaperSG or google. If you can find something let me know.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:12, 31 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- see https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=zLIpAAAAIBAJ&sjid=JuUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=3592%2C10565749 (scroll down a bit to "Down the Fairways"). Can't help feeling that this is very minor stuff. 9 hole course. No real coverage. Nigej (talk) 20:54, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes, looks like you're right. If you find additional stuff in the future, however, please let me know.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 00:36, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Ooggylwoogly
Template for Golf Course pages
I was wondering what the general template is for creating golf course pages. Could someone provide me a good example?
I was thinking about his recently as I was editing the page of Royal Adelaide Golf Club. Two things come to mind:
1) Do we need an additional scorecard for specific events (in this case the 2017 Women's Australian Open)? Seems like that could go on a tournament page. On this page it looks kind of clunky and extraneous.
2) I created the heading "Other Tournaments" which adds dates when the course hosted the Australian Amateur and South Australian Open. I was thinking of combining "Other Tournaments" information with the "Australian Opens" information under an overarching "Tournaments" heading. I think it would be clearer. Thoughts?
Also, the only course page I have created in the Pleasant Valley Country Club page. Any advice on how to improve this would be nice.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:13, 29 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- There isn't a template as such, but an article like Augusta National Golf Club covers most things. To answer the other questions: I would say no, we don't need scorecards for each event held (they move the tees around day-to-day anyway, so seems excessive and pointless); and it sometimes makes sense to have any major tournaments separate (depends on content and context). The PVCC article could probably use a history section and an overview of the course & facilities (foundation, course designer, redesigns, etc.); if that can be added, the tournaments summaries can go in their own section (with the list in a sub-section of that) and the lead can just summarize the major points. wjematherplease leave a message... 12:47, 30 October 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for your help. I'll check out Augusta's page. Once I have time I'll work on these edits. I may have more questions about this in the future.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 04:23, 31 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Question on professional status
I have a question about when golfers official "turn professional."
This recently came up with a page I created for David Galloway (golfer). It states here that Galloway turned professional in January 1969. He started working as assistant professional at Royal Canberra then.
On this link it implies he turned pro in late 1971 or early 1972. I assume that with this link they are referring to turning "touring professional."
Nonetheless some clarification would be nice.
This issue was especially salient when I was creating the page of Barry Burgess. Burgess had a lengthy "amateur" career yet was getting paid money to work at golf clubs during this era (Strathfield, Ashlar, Bankstown). He eventually "turned professional" in 1976. This issue has come up with other golfers too. Again, any clarification would be helpful.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:28, 31 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- I've had the same trouble with Australian pros. Bob Stanton (golfer) was clearly a pro here https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/136933968 (mentioned as an assistant professional - so he's lost his amateur status) but elsewhere (can't find it currently) there was a later date for him becoming a professional. As you say, I suspect its related to becoming eligible to play in tournaments. Not 100% clear. We should go for the earlier date - loss of amateur status. Nigej (talk) 21:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- From what I remember, 30+ years ago, assistants weren't eligible to compete in (full-)professional tournaments until they had completed their apprenticeship – they could mostly only compete in assistant/young/junior professional events. The duration of the apprenticeship period varied across the world, and could be anything from a few months to several years; it was steadily reduced over the years as tournament golf grew, until it was eliminated entirely. wjematherplease leave a message... 23:01, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Yes it seems clear as day to me that they are "professional" once they start earning money for their work as an assistant professional and earning money in assistant professional tournaments.
- I think this is particularly important for our pages as we separate them between "Amateur career" and "Professional career." Perhaps we could add "Assistant Professional career" in between though I've never really heard of that as a discreet concept before.
- Here I just want to add some precise information about Galloway's transition to assistant professional. Not because you disagree but more to clarify my own thoughts and perhaps other members reading this:
- It states on this link from January 24, 1969 that "David Galloway has turned professional."
- It states on this link from March 18, 1969 that Galloway earned A$8 in an "apprentice" event. This was his "first event since turning professional."
- Again, it just seems like common sense that they are "professional" once they start earning money.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 01:13, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Indeed, the timeline is simply this: Amateur → Professional (i.e. there is no intermediate step). Also, pros commonly remain(ed) assistants after completing their apprenticeship. In Galloway's case, it seems clear he turned pro in Jan 1969 and the later report (which states less than 2 years ago) is probably an error. wjematherplease leave a message... 09:45, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Ok, good - seems like common sense. I will change his page soon.
- For most these guys the distinction pretty simple and will not be hard to correct. I do have a question about Barry Burgess however. If you look at his page it states he had a lengthy amateur career while working at golf clubs. He then turned pro in 1976. Please tell me what you think.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:58, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Re: Barry Burgess. The September 1976 date must be wrong. He played as a professional in the 1976 Open, in July, so he must clearly have been professional then. See: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/250483543?searchTerm=%22barry%20burgess%22 which says 1971 and seems more likely. Also see: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-cBWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J-UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4197%2C11365723 and https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YFEVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VuUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4812%2C861431 which actually proves that he turned pro in 1970 (since he played in an assistants event in late 1970). Anyway the general principle is: if he played in an amateur event he must have been an amateur. If he played in a tour event it's not always 100% clear what his status was. Nigej (talk) 20:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- There are also rare cases of players turning professional, regaining amateur status, and later turning professional for the second time. wjematherplease leave a message... 21:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- True. Allen John comes to mind. Nigej (talk) 21:54, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- There are also rare cases of players turning professional, regaining amateur status, and later turning professional for the second time. wjematherplease leave a message... 21:49, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- Re: Barry Burgess. The September 1976 date must be wrong. He played as a professional in the 1976 Open, in July, so he must clearly have been professional then. See: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/250483543?searchTerm=%22barry%20burgess%22 which says 1971 and seems more likely. Also see: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=-cBWAAAAIBAJ&sjid=J-UDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4197%2C11365723 and https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=YFEVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=VuUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=4812%2C861431 which actually proves that he turned pro in 1970 (since he played in an assistants event in late 1970). Anyway the general principle is: if he played in an amateur event he must have been an amateur. If he played in a tour event it's not always 100% clear what his status was. Nigej (talk) 20:36, 12 November 2020 (UTC)
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:58, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Ok, thank you very much for the information. I have updated Burgess' page. I may add more information later to the first paragraph regarding his transition to professional career. There were quite a few subtle details in the Sydney Morning Herald article. Also, you are more than welcome to clarify things in the article.
- Also, Nigej, how in the world did you find this precise information and so quickly? Google News Archives does not have a search function.
- Sincerely,
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 18:51, 15 November 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Google Newspaper Archive is very good as long as you know the exact date. So, I find the exact date and then check The Age and Sydney Morning Herald. Finding the date is the tricky bit. Currently I'm a subscriber to Newspapers.com which is very useful. But I also use a host of other bits and pieces. Nigej (talk) 19:05, 15 November 2020 (UTC)
early 20th century New Zealand Opens
I recently created a page for Ted Douglas. He won the New Zealand Open several times in the early 20th century. In my research I expected to find some primary sources through Past Papers. While I found a good deal of information I did not find any primary sources reporting from the New Zealand Open. I would like this for his page but more so for the New Zealand Open page. In the reference column for that page we only have primary sources. I would like to keep it consistent and only use primary sources for the very early 20th century New Zealand Opens too. Anyway, any relevant information would be most helpful.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:51, 31 October 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Probably my fault. The NZ PGA Championship article does have references. I'm in the process of creating a New Zealand Amateur article, so perhaps it would be an opportunity to add refs to the NZ Open too. Right up to 1963 the three events were played together, as part of the "Championship meeting". The Open first, which also determined the qualifiers for the professional and amateur match-play events that followed immediately afterwards. Also worth noting that "New Zealand PGA Championship" is not the correct name up to 1963, since the organisation of it had little or nothing to do with the New Zealand PGA, as far as I know - New Zealand Professional Championship would be better in this era. Nigej (talk) 06:45, 1 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for the response and the additional information. I also don't know how it could be "your fault" as I added all of the citations to the New Zealand Open page.
- If you could add stuff for early NZ Open that would be of indispensable importance. I have tried using Past Papers - using the date filter - but haven't found anything yet.
- Also, thank you very much for the creation of the New Zealand Amateur page! That is a huge contribution to WikiProject Golf, among the best three additions since I've been editing. I was thinking about creating it myself but had incomplete information.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 00:51, 5 November 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Ok, well thank you anyway for adding the citations. I will be sure to use them on Douglas's page.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 20:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
Michael/Mike Clayton
Anyone know why we have him under Michael Clayton (golfer). Nearly always he was referred to as Mike, so would suggest moving him to Mike Clayton (golfer). Nigej (talk) 19:20, 5 November 2020 (UTC)
- Agree. wjematherplease leave a message... 11:40, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
- Agree also. Jimmymci234 (talk) 18:36, 6 November 2020 (UTC)
Mount Isa tournament
Has anyone heard of this tournament? It has played in Queensland during the 1970s. It recently came up when I was creating the page of Mike Ferguson (golfer). Ferguson the event in 1978. He also won the event in 1981.
This also came up when I was creating the page of Randall Vines. Vines won the tournament in 1975.
Not sure how important this tournament was... may have just been an event on the Queensland circuit. Keep in mind I only have secondary sources for this. Nonetheless, both Vines and Ferguson were prominent golfers and won this event during the heart of their careers. Let me know if you have anything and, if you do, if you think it is worthy of an article.
Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:24, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
finding incomplete Mike Ferguson information
Hello all,
I recently created the page of Mike Ferguson (golfer). I found a lot of stuff but I am missing some information from very notable performances.
- According to the Western Australian Open page he won the event in 1977. Could not find any sources for this however.
- Ferguson was in second place entering the final round of the 1983 Queensland PGA Championship. I have a link for his third round performance but not the final round. It says on the wiki page that Peter McWhinney won the tournament.
- In 1985 he won the Acom Doubles in Japan with Brian Jones (golfer). According to the wiki page it was an unofficial event then. Cannot find any information for this.
If you can find anything for any of this stuff that would be much appreciated.
Sincerely, Oogglywoogly (talk) 21:34, 13 November 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- 1977 WA Open: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=6vFUAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ipIDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5981%2C6741529 1983: Queensland PGA: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1P5jAAAAIBAJ&sjid=7-YDAAAAIBAJ&pg=1517%2C5637352 and https://www.newspapers.com/clip/63219066/the-age/ 1985 Acorn Doubles https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ilBVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=iJUDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5906%2C8146114 Nigej (talk) 08:21, 14 November 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you very much Nigej! Just added this stuff.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 03:24, 17 November 2020 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
2021 Majors
It is way too soon to be able to reliably source almost anything other than dates and venue for these tournaments. There is also an additional issue with The Open, regarding a potential move of the 2020 (149th Open) article depending on how the R&A proceed. Not much has changed since this AfD, so it seems clear that it is best to leave them all as redirects at the moment. wjematherplease leave a message... 17:50, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- To me it makes more sense having the next years majors pages available as soon as the previous event has concluded i.e. The 2021 Masters page would be go up as soon as the 2020 Masters has concluded. I would imagine people would be looking to find out more information on the following years event after the current one has passed. In terms of sourcing, better/more reliable sources can be added as time goes on. Jimmymci234 (talk) 17:56, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Other than detail noted in the main article, we have almost no verifiable info. Also note WP:CRYSTAL. wjematherplease leave a message... 18:09, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- For many years these have been made a year in advance, and not only the majors but a few select other golf pages also. And not only in golf, but in a couple other sports too. And they will continue to. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 19:17, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- The problem this year is that, with the disruption in the schedules, it's difficult to know the qualification criteria for the majors, which was the main interest in these article before the events started. Just guessing that it'll be similar to 2020 is not really good enough. Nigej (talk) 19:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- No argument there, but I had loaded those pages in such a way that I hid the criteria. But yet, someone still redirected them, which was not needed. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 19:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- Once we also remove the other equally problematic (i.e. unreferenced because sources do not exist) content, e.g. "past champions" and "course" sections, we are left with nothing but dates and venue. This simply duplicates detail in the main articles and is insufficient for standalone articles. wjematherplease leave a message... 19:49, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- No argument there, but I had loaded those pages in such a way that I hid the criteria. But yet, someone still redirected them, which was not needed. Johnsmith2116 (talk) 19:28, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
- The problem this year is that, with the disruption in the schedules, it's difficult to know the qualification criteria for the majors, which was the main interest in these article before the events started. Just guessing that it'll be similar to 2020 is not really good enough. Nigej (talk) 19:21, 16 November 2020 (UTC)
Essex County Country Club
I recently made an article for Essex County Country Club. It is one of the oldest clubs in the United States. Feel free to add to it if you have access to more historical information. Thanks! Thriley (talk) 14:14, 17 November 2020 (UTC)