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:: If you say no indicator is needed, please show me where to click in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_sequoia_groves&oldid=145026282 List of sequoia groves] to view all the coordinates in the article. When I click on a single coordinate I get a GeoTemplate list, which only lets me see that one point which I selected. I think an indicator is needed of where I should click to view all the coordinates. ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 18:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)) |
:: If you say no indicator is needed, please show me where to click in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_sequoia_groves&oldid=145026282 List of sequoia groves] to view all the coordinates in the article. When I click on a single coordinate I get a GeoTemplate list, which only lets me see that one point which I selected. I think an indicator is needed of where I should click to view all the coordinates. ([[User:SEWilco|SEWilco]] 18:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)) |
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:::The interface in Wikipedia to have more information of coordinates is to click on any of them and choose a service of your preference. Indicators aren't used for any other similar minor details in articles, and the variety of available services for these minor details doesn't make them any more special. Adding the KML service links to the standard list is unfortunately not possible yet, as a single loudmouth keeps blocking the required ''[[Template talk:Coord#Moving_microformat_markup_from_articles_to_coord|coord|name=]]'' modification by making it seem to admins as if discussion was still going on or that his objections were worth noting. Still, the link to the services won't be some separate and different indicator of an available service type, but the same Wikipedia coordinates interface everyone knows already. --[[User:Paradisal|Para]] 19:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC) |
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== New template: {{tl|geodata-check}} == |
== New template: {{tl|geodata-check}} == |
Revision as of 19:25, 13 August 2007
Archives
To do
Decimal-to-DMS conversion template
I have created a template {{Coords dec to dms}} that will convert coordinates in decimal format to DMS format. I am not quite sure where this template can be used, but at least the functionality is available. ●DanMS • Talk 23:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you, but this functionality - and much more - is already provided by {{coord}}. Andy Mabbett 12:15, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
News from Wikipedia-World
Thanks to all helpers! Now we are supporting over 200.000 articles in Wikipedia-World.
New is the support of thumbnails-previews in Google Earth, see Link or Screenshot. Unfortunally we can't use images from english Wikipedia, the reason is the "fairuse" licences of some pictures. An other new feature is the possibility to show only articles without a photo (Link), so you have a chance to plan your next photo-safari in your surrounding area. --Greetings from Germany and sorry for my bad english. de:Benutzer:Kolossos --12:31, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- Good job! For a more accurate photo safari, free geocoded images from Commons are also available (as opposed to images used in geocoded articles), on Commons:WikiMiniAtlas or the Commons Google Earth layer, but the amount isn't even close to Wikipedia-World yet. You can help on Wikipedia by using the Maybe-Checker, or on Commons by geocoding any good image. --Para 19:08, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Map?
Is there any way to link coordinates with physic / political maps?. --Mac 16:14, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Doubled-up coordinates
Hi there. This is probably a very stupid question, but I can't find the answer on the article or talk page. I've just created an article on the Bermuda Atlantic Time-series Study, an oceanographic study site. Anyway, I've included coordinates for it, but for completeness added the coordinates for a neighbouring study site. Unfortunately, both sets of coordinates now appear overlaid at the top of the article. I'm sure there's a simple way to stop this from happening, but am too incompetent to find it. Any help would be very gratefully received. Cheers, --Plumbago 09:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- I've fixed that by upgrading to {{coord}}, which allows you to specify inline, title, or both displays. Andy Mabbett 10:32, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Brilliant! Thanks very much. --Plumbago 10:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Migration to the coord template
Seeing a push in the near future for conversion of all geographical coordinates in Wikipedia to the new {{coord}} template, it would be good to do some preparation. Coordinate numbers are better read by machines than people, so machine readability is an important issue. Following previous concerns on machine readability, perhaps we could improve on many areas and standardise our geocoding when starting the search & replace spree:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Geographical coordinates#Templates currently lists 5 main sets of coordinate markup templates, plus some miscellaneous ones. These should be reduced to one: coord.
- Inline coordinates: {{coor d}}, {{coor dm}}, and {{coor dms}} → {{coord|display=inline}}
- Title coordinates: {{coor title d}}, {{coor title dm}}, and {{coor title dms}} → {{coord|display=title}}
- Both inline and title: {{coor at d}}, {{coor at dm}}, and {{coor at dms}} → {{coord|display=inline,title}}
- Templates with default parameters: {{
The choice of geographical information service should be left to the reader. These can all be converted to {{coord}}, but they need to be discussed separately in case GeoHack is not up to date. The type, scale and region parameters the templates have default values for are likely to never change in most cases. The main question is if it's worth it to have the infobox template choose the additional parameters, or could the coord uses be complete and have static parameters?
}} - Infoboxes that use coordinates
To maintain machine readability and easy reuse of data, infoboxes should take the {{coord}} template as a coordinates parameter, instead of building it from separate variables. That is, like {{Infobox CityIT}}, not like {{Infobox Swiss town}} for example. Again the only downside would be the loss of default parameters. Is it really a downside at all?
Could someone count the occurrences? Special:Whatlinkshere will be incorrect, as it counts the end result only, multiplying the number if the geocoding template is used through an intermediary template such as an infobox.
And finally, who can volunteer to do the bot work? --Para 06:53, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- 6. There are a number (possible a lot) of articles which have coordinates in the infobox and a coordinate template elsewhere in the article. When the infoboxes are updated to take a single coordinate field these coordinate templates should be moved into the infoboxes. -- Patleahy 07:36, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with most of what you both say; but note that {{coord}} is already available for use. {{Infobox Swiss town}} is the subject of a disputed revert (see its talk page), which has removed microformat markup from it (the documentation refers to the version with microformats). Some articles have separate latitude and longitude fields, and sue these to put a marker on a map. It's pointless to then require coordinates to be entered again in {[tl|coord}}, when the template can generate a {{coord}} from the existing data. There are some notes on migration issues, and usage counts, on
the {{coord}} talk page.Template talk:Coord/conversion - I suggest we conduct further discussion there, rather than swamping this page (and move the above discussion there, if you're agreeable). Andy Mabbett 08:41, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with most of what you both say; but note that {{coord}} is already available for use. {{Infobox Swiss town}} is the subject of a disputed revert (see its talk page), which has removed microformat markup from it (the documentation refers to the version with microformats). Some articles have separate latitude and longitude fields, and sue these to put a marker on a map. It's pointless to then require coordinates to be entered again in {[tl|coord}}, when the template can generate a {{coord}} from the existing data. There are some notes on migration issues, and usage counts, on
- People responsible for all those infoboxes and templates will of course have to be invited to the discussion and see if we can reach any consensus with them, but first I'd like to see some more opinions here. We'll probably need a subpage for this conversion project then. I wasn't aware of locator maps being generated with CSS like that, but also I don't see it as a problem to duplicate the static coordinate information for that purpose, while having all location related articles use the same coordinate template. Perhaps others will. --Para 10:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- If we put invites on 100s of template/ infobox talk pages, we'll be accused of spamming (though there has been a notce on {{Main coordinates templates}}, which is on all the coor * documentation) for some time). Besides, many have been using coord for weeks, with no issues. There's no point in asking editors to enter the same data twice; and to do so risks mis-matches, not least by any errors being corrected in one set and not the other. I've set up a sub-page at Template talk:Coord/conversion, with the pre-existing material. Please feel free to move my comments if you move yours there. Andy Mabbett 11:05, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- I'd prefer seeing the discussion here for now, as it concerns more than just the new template. We can put the results of the discussion on the conversion page.
- Requesting opinions, positive or negative, from people responsible for or interested of the templates we would like to see changed doesn't match the criteria of Wikipedia:Spam or Wikipedia:Canvassing. We're not some voice of god and can't just apply a big change on the whole site without discussing it first with everyone involved. But before any of that, we need to establish what exactly needs to be changed and to what extent. I'll put together a quick list for preparation.
- Please don't be too bold in this project, the template has enough bad reputation as it is. --Para 12:19, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- I dispute that this template has a "bad reputation", but if its reputation is not what it should be, then the sort of disnformation you're posting will have played a major part in that. Andy Mabbett 14:20, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- It's just that you never quite got to work the prototype article you had chosen .. -- User:Docu
- That doesn't appear to be a meaningful sentence. Andy Mabbett 16:02, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- It's the saga about the Great Barr article above, where you tried to add Template:Coord, but finally removed it. -- User:Docu
- I successfully added {{coord}} to that article; I have never removed it. Andy Mabbett 18:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Note also Category:Geobox. Andy Mabbett 10:33, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
Coordinates parameter in infoboxes
Why should infoboxes take coord as a parameter? Can infobox templates which accept geocoord parameters themselves invoke {{coord}}? This would require no changes in article, only a change to each template. (SEWilco 12:54, 8 June 2007 (UTC))
- Coordinate information is best handled in groups, items located in the same area for example. This is impossible if there is no access to the whole of the data. The goal of standardising is to have all the coordinate information entered using the same format: it is not enough that it looks the same when the HTML is rendered, the wikitext should be in the same format in all articles. It is unreasonable to expect us or anyone else to maintain database parsers for all the various parameters currently used in infoboxes when it's possible to use just one. --Para 13:03, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- There are advantages to both methods. Using {{coord}} as the parameter gives the editor control over the display, zoom, etc., and allows entry in decimal or DMS values. Having latitude and longitude parameters in the infobox, which then invokes coord is more straightforward, but is less flexible. We serve our readers first, then our editors, and only then external parsers. Andy Mabbett 14:08, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
A possible alternative may be to define default names for variables of coordinates (latd=, longd= etc.). -- User:Docu
- The default names for latitude, longitude and coordinates are, er, latitude, longitude and coordinates. Andy Mabbett 16:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Do you have samples for those? -- User:Docu
- They're in every good English dictionary. Andy Mabbett 18:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- I think you are missing my point, I was refering to templates. -- User:Docu
- As am I. Andy Mabbett 20:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- That's still too complicated to parse, as the keywords could be anywhere in the article, with a random number of braces between them and the infobox text and opening braces. To parse that you would need to run MediaWiki for all articles really. This leads into silly things like people on Google Earth not seeing the Wikipedia placemark on a city, but only on small locations there, etc. I don't know if people count users of external services that use Wikipedia data and link here, as Wikipedia readers, but in my opinion it's an excellent opportunity to attract more people here, and we shouldn't let it go. --Para 17:51, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- It appears that, e.g. google, recognize some infoboxes better than others. I was told that Template:Infobox Afghan City works. Not quite sure why.
- To avoid duplicating coordinates, we could try consolidate location maps into the/a coordinate template (e.g. {{coor title map dms|50|43|25|N|3|31|39|W|type:_region:|map=UK}}). Possibly this would lead to location maps being transcluded into articles with the template, e.g. all UK location maps are already transcluded by Template:Infobox UK place at . -- User:Docu
- We're in the middle on consolidating a number of coordinates templates into one, and you want to start creating new ones? Andy Mabbett 18:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- It's mainly that you will need to add coordinates twice to some infoboxes, e.g. Template:Infobox UK place. Just wondering why Afghan City might work .. -- User:Docu
- I looked at the first few Infobox Afghan City article coordinates on Google Earth and none of the articles were there. Kabul for example is not, though it'd probably be the most important. Then I came upon Kandahar, which actually turned out to be visible. The coordinates in the article were in coor title dms format for half a year in 2006, before it was split to composite parameters. It seems that Google keeps coordinate information from us even when it's removed from our articles or converted to an unknown format. That's good, any single editor can't do much damage then. --Para 19:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Ok then we need to split them out. Do you think it's preferable to have the coordinates for the locator map separated or not? -- User:Docu
- I don't see any problem splitting the coordinates in two sets: keeping locator map coordinates however they are now, and use coordinates={{coord}} parameter like with any other article, preferably still in the infobox. Locations of cities are not very likely to change, so the data won't start developing in different directions like some other data might when forked like that. --Para 19:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- "It seems that Google keeps coordinate information from us even when it's removed from our articles" - that's very bad; it means that they will perpetuate errors we have corrected. Andy Mabbett 20:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- "you will need to add coordinates twice to some infoboxes" - On the contrary, you will find that I have just said that we should only ask editors to enter data once. Andy Mabbett 20:50, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- How would you generate the locator map? -- User:Docu
- From the coordinates. How else? Andy Mabbett 08:22, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Can you provide a working sample of what you are trying to describe? -- User:Docu
- I don´t know a working example, but I wish that the keywords for all infoboxes the same! At the moment we have too many keywords for the same thing. Sometime lat, Lathitude, degree, latminute, ...! If we change the infoboxes to a special set of keywords, it is not so difficult to parse the information from the infobox. -- sk 12:04, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Can you suggest a preferred format? I'd agree to update Template:Infobox Swiss town. Currently, it uses nd=,ns=,ed=,es= which dates from when templates couldn't transclude other templates. If you'd parse the once that would be nice anyways. -- User:Docu
- The preferred format should be (at least on the English-language Wikipedia) "latitude" and "longitude", or "coordinates". Andy Mabbett 20:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
HTML
- Which is what it would be far more sensible to parse the microformats in the published HTML. And before you tell me again that it's "crazy" to suggest that Google download our HTML output, how on Earth do you think they index the rest of the site? Andy Mabbett 18:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Search engine spider traffic is a necessary evil, but suggesting that the traffic should be doubled is outrageous. It probably takes Google longer than the time between our database dumps to download the HTML of all our 60,783,797 pages, so the updates through the dumps are quicker than if they implemented the parser to use the spidered pages. And it's not just Google Earth we're interested in, but everyone should be able to use our data. To get an idea of the amount of data, all the articles compressed in the xml dump are only about 2.5 GB, while the static HTML uncompressed, as it's sent live, is about 700 GB. --Para 19:01, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Which is what it would be far more sensible to parse the microformats in the published HTML. And before you tell me again that it's "crazy" to suggest that Google download our HTML output, how on Earth do you think they index the rest of the site? Andy Mabbett 18:38, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- "Suggesting that the traffic should be doubled is outrageous". Who suggests that? And why don't we parse our data, and publish a list (XML, maybe, or RSS) of URLs and matching coordinates? Andy Mabbett 20:47, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- We don't need to parse the dumps. The Germans are already doing it. And they publish the urls and co-ordinates in Google Earth. Thats what they are already doing. Now if you would like to do a similar task and publish it in a different format, then by all means feel free to do so. Frelke 23:17, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Whoooshhhh! Andy Mabbett 23:39, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- The smart way for this case obviously would be to use the pages they already have in their index - no extra downloading. But I guess dumpparsing retains more information, or is the type ( city(pop), mountain(height), landmark, etc. ) parameter in the microformat? --Dschwen 06:43, 9 June 2007 (UTC) P.S.: and Google will sooner or later have to start parsing microformats anyways. --Dschwen 07:37, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Increasing Coordinates templates from 300,000 to 1,500,000
An element to consider if templates should be converted: the number of templates called for the coordinates of a single location may easily increase by a factor of five:
- Template:Coor at dms calls Template:Coor URL => 2 templates per location/article
- Template:Coord calls 8 or 9 other templates = 10 templates per location/article
If there are 150,000 coordinates, we could end up with 1.5 mio template calls. -- User:Docu
Formats
I think we should convert all template to one favourite template format. For human it is easier to understand this template and for computers it is easier to parse this template. My favourite format is {{Coord|43|29|4.5|N|79|23|0.5|W|type:landmark_region:US-TX_dim:3000}} We have many interesting discussion at the german wikipeda about one favorit format. At the moment we have only 3 formats (inline, inline and title, title) at de. For inline we have also at the end "|name=Theater of Trier}". So we can name many list of coordinates with metadata. If the english Wikipedia find a favourite template format then many other languages will also use this. -- sk 12:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- As sk does most of the post-processing, his preferred format shall be mine. -- User:Docu
- That is against one of the explicit purposes of {{coord}}, which is to give editors the choice of input format and specificity, and readers the choice of format they view, regardless of what the editor used; and to do so in one template, replacing 9+ other templates. Andy Mabbett 20:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- We had in the german Wikipedia the same discussion. The best way is to replace the format when the user input the coordinate. In the german wikipedia the user from Switzerland would use the coordinate system from Switzerland (for example: 47° 12' 17.97" N, 8° 45' 28" E is x=699942 y=229067) in de:Freienbach). The user can use the template de:Template:CH-Koordinate. There he can insert the swiss coordinates or geographic coordinates. When he save the article the template will replace the swiss coordinates in geographic coordinates in a standard format. So everybody can input his favourite format, but we have only one format inside the article source code. When we display the article we can say: this is a infobox from a city in Switzerland than display also the special coordinates from Switzerland. I think this will be the best way for the English Wikipedia. Everyone can use every format to write the coordinates but inside the article we only save one standard format. (Ask user de:User:Visi-on for more information. He produce this special template.) -- sk 11:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- That's an interesting idea, but would mean that anyone subsequently editing the article would only see the new format. I can't see that being accepted. Andy Mabbett 12:03, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- I think after the first confusion they will accept the new format. -- sk 12:42, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- To make sure I understood correctly: the German Wikipedia has article groups where the coordinates in articles are written in a format accepted by that article group only. Editors can insert coordinates in any format, but a bot will soon come to convert them to the group's local format and remove the original contribution. From there on only the converted format is accepted in that article. There can be many different formats throughout the German Wikipedia, and someone somehow manages to parse all these. Is that correct?
- The English Wikipedia does the opposite in a sense: coordinates can be entered in any format, but a bot will later convert them all to the format commonly accepted on the whole English Wikipedia. It will however leave the original template intact, provided that it's in an entirely different format and not just a template markup difference. For example, many people in the Great Britain are used to the British national grid reference system, and their OSGB coordinates live happily together with WGS84 ones in articles. Are we getting ourselves in trouble here then? People probably aren't familiar with both the local and the Wikipedia-wide format, and prefer to edit one or the other but not both. There was discussion above about locator maps and duplicating coordinate markup for two purposes as the location in those maps isn't expected to change, but in all the other articles the likelihood is much higher. --Para 14:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
@Para:Sorry for my bad english. There is no bot. It is inside the template. If you write in the german de:Wikipedia:Spielwiese (Wikipedia:Sandbox) the following code:
{{CH-Koordinate |Text =X |Artikel=X |LAT = 45.6 |LONG ={{subst:CH1903-WGS84|600|200||koor=L|subst=subst:}} |TYPE = |VALUE = |REGION = |DIM = |ONLY = }}
then you get after the save-button (german:"Seite speichern") in the article
{{CH-Koordinate |Text =X |Artikel=X |LAT = 45.6 |LONG =7.438637<!--{{subst:CH1903-WGS84|600|200||koor=L|subst=subst:}}--> |TYPE = |VALUE = |REGION = |DIM = |ONLY = }}
So the man and woman from Switzerland can everytime change it and inside the article is only geographical coordinates. -- sk 19:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- Interesting feature. However, my question above for Template:Infobox Swiss town is somewhat different: Each of the 2600 articles using the infobox have coordinates added to them. The question is just in which way to format them to make it easy for you to parse them. The infobox uses the coordinates both for displaying a locator map and for displaying the coordinates themselves. -- User:Docu
- The best are standard keywords (LATITUDE,LONGITUDE,INHABITANTS and ISO-CODE-REGION =CH-BE ) and the degree value as "-45.2394". So you can produce map and coordinate and I can easy parse all different templates. But please discuss the keywords. If all different templates use the same keywords it is the best. -- sk 19:53, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
- Boggle For weeks, Docu has been persistently removing {{coord}} from {{Infobox Swiss town}}, despite having originally requested its addition, and despite the fact that Stefan - and Google Earth and GeoNames - have already said that they will parse it. {{Infobox Swiss town}} is the only one of very many infoboxes using coord from which it has been removed. Andy Mabbett 20:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
- @Andy: It is possible to make a locator map inside the template when the template use "coord"? I don't know? If this possible then you should use the template:Coord inside the template:Infobox. I mean the best is only one template for all coordinates inside article text and inside infoboxes. But if one function (locator map) is not possible then we need a second standard (keywords). (Sorry for my English!)-- sk 22:32, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
- If latitude and longitude are entered, as decimal values, into a template, then it's possible for that template to generate both a locator map and a coord template. I'm not sure how one could generate a locator map if the coordinates are entered by typing using cord template as the value, because I don't know enough about parsing within templates. That doesn't seem to be relevant to Docu's constant reverting, though, as he's switching from outputting coord, to outputting coor dm and coor title dm, which is no different, in regard to map generation. Please don't apologise for your English! Andy Mabbett 09:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- @sk: Template:Geobox_Settlement uses lat_d, lat_m, lat_s, lat_NS, long_d, long_m, long_s, long_WE, population as names for the variables. In Template:Geobox_River, these are used as suffixes. For ISO-CODE-REGION there doesn't seem to be an equivalent. What do you think of the geobox names? -- User:Docu
- Why are a single set of coordinates being used for linear features like rivers? Andy Mabbett 11:02, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- @Pigsonthewing, try Template talk:Geobox River. -- User:Docu
- @Docu: For me it is important, that this keyword is only use for georaphic coordinates. Sometime I found coorx =12 and coory=52 with coordinates for the locator map in pixel. This is not good. So please use only one set of keywords in all templates. This will be the best. "lat_d" and Co is ok but I think the long form "latitude_degree" is better to understand. -- sk 08:57, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- In my view the splitting of the parameter in degrees, minutes and seconds is very bad practice. I think the best format will be decimal degrees. All other formats (inclusive swiss coordinates) are best supported by transformational templates. This favorite format is also usable for locator maps. Visi-off 12:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC) visi-on in german wikipedia
- @sk: if decimal coordinates are given, there would just be two variables of the length of "latitude_degree", but if six are used (lat_d, lat_m, lat_s, lat_NS, long_d, long_m, long_s, long_WE) seem shorter.
- @Visi-off: One of the disadvantages of decimal degrees is that we would need to convert existing coordinates and there seems to be some preference in using dms for display (which means that they would need to be converted back). -- User:Docu
- (The preceding comment by Docu (talk · contribs)) As I though you were already aware, {{coord}} handles that conversion, in either direction, automatically, and allows the user a choice of display preference. Andy Mabbett 08:51, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
De-migration
At the same time as we are thinking of reducing coordinate templates to one, others work on creating more of them, such as {{PoIgb}}. What should be done to discourage this? Summary restructuring and deletion? --Para 21:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- PoIgb is not a new coordinates template; it's a table template which calls {{coord}} in exactly the same way you've been suggesting elsewhere. More FUD. Andy Mabbett 21:51, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- The coordinates are given to PoIgb, and without running MediaWiki on their own a data reuser can't know that the numbers would later be given to coord. Additional data entry templates like that are exactly what we're trying to develop away from. Why can't coord be called directly in tables? --Para 21:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- Just as happens in about half of the geo-infoboxes. Since the coordinates in PoIgb don't generally, apply to the whole article, why should parsers need to see them? as to your last question, there are vocal opponents to such a move, for the same reasons you've opposed other templates, which do use coord as a value, in the last few days. {{PoIgb}} is the model you said you wanted, when opposing {{hcard-geo}}, which has coord as a value, the model you oppose. Please make up your mind what you want. Andy Mabbett 22:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- It shouldn't be up to the data providers to choose what the data reusers want to see, though inline data no doubt has lower priority. All coordinates should be entered using the same template. In this topic we have tried to find out whether it would be possible to really do that, or if infoboxes need to be exempt and have composite coordinates using some standard parameter set. The problem with hcard-geo isn't its different data entry, but the naming and syntax from another data representation layer, and the unnecessary wrapping of one template inside another, when only adding minor information that could as well be implemented in the inmost template. Table row templates seem to generally be accepted, though personally I'd prefer seeing the normal wikitable syntax, especially in this case where all the cells between rows are different and no information is repeated. The preferred data model with structured data in articles is to call the data by its name, be it a coordinate or a point of interest, but not by its possible eventual output format name. --Para 23:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- "All coordinates should be entered using the same template." If you wish to implement that as policy - it certainly isn't now, nor has it ever been, in the time I've been here - then feel free to raise it in the appropriate forums. In the meantime, it's just your opinion, and as such is without merit. Andy Mabbett 20:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
- Geeez, what's the matter with you? Don't you realize how unproductive your rude manners are? We are all just trying to contribute to improve the geocoding on Wikipedia. You make it seem like it's you against all others... --Dschwen 08:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- I was perfectly polite. Please don't make false accusations. Andy Mabbett 09:37, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
I just noticed {{PoI}} too. Can we put an end to this and not create any more coordinate entry templates? Or should they just be converted to use named parameter as proposed below? --Para 11:05, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Updating documentation
- Unless anyone objects, I shall shortly update this project page, to say that people should use {{coord}} in preference to coor * templates. Andy Mabbett 16:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Given http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/geoweb_faq.html (mentioned by AM elsewhere) this seems reasonable to me. -- roundhouse0 20:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)I await consensus elsewhere. -- roundhouse0 12:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
This is again being discussed at the talk page of the Manual of Style as well. --Para 23:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Mapit/ Geolinks templates
The mapit and geolinks template families include many templates (e.g. {{Geolinks-buildingscale}}, {{Mapit-US-cityscale}}) which add map links to an article, duplicating those provided by http://tools.wikimedia.de/~magnus/geo/geohack.php (see Lassen Peak for an article on which the coordinates are entered using both coord (was coor at dm) and a Geolinks template). Any thoughts on removing/ deprecating them also? Andy Mabbett 13:25, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- Why? The Geolinks provide one-click access to relevant map sites, without having to scroll down the long list accessed by {{coord}}.
- —wwoods 15:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with Pigsonthewing. The geolink templates are somewhat redundant with the coordinates near the article title. -- User:Docu
Standardize names for coordinate variables in template namespace
Following the lengthy discussion and suggestion above at #Formats, I'd suggest to define the following names for coordinate variables in template namespace:
- Templates other {{coor *}} or {{coord}} should use the following variables as for coordinates: lat_d, lat_m, lat_s, lat_NS, long_d, long_m, long_s,
long_WE[Changed to:] long_EW.
This should be defined here and in a section of the Manual of Style. -- User:Docu
- Minor nit... please make it long_EW rather than long_WE. More logical, matching lat_NS with the positive direction given first for both (and also alphabetical for both). And more commonly spoken this way I think. --GregU 06:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- And want to add, I support this abbreviated form. These would be ubiquitous so not a problem with understanding, and this allows 4 or even 8 to fit on a line easily. --GregU 07:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- Good point, I updated the proposal to read "long_EW". -- User:Docu
- You don't say why you think coord should use those variable names; and it's certainly not worth applying them to coor *, when were discussing the process of deprecating them. Andy Mabbett 09:11, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed, I didn't, as the proposal is for templates other than {{coor *}} or {{coord}}. -- User:Docu
- Support with long_EW. I don't think we have addressed the inline coordinates issue yet, where some editors prefer seeing coordinates inside infoboxes only and not in the title: if a page has coordinates using coord and none of them are specified to be in the title, which of the possibly many inline coordinates should be used to represent the whole article? So in addition to these variables, I suggest a coordinates= variable which takes the coord template. It's already done that way in many places with the old templates and noted by external services too, but not recently with the new template. --Para 11:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- "if a page has coordinates using coord and none of them are specified to be in the title, which of the possibly many inline coordinates should be used to represent the whole article" - if there's one set in an infobox, that one; otherwise, none. Andy Mabbett 11:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- So how can it be detected which of the possibly many coord are in an infobox? --Para 12:00, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- Support proposal. As for display, other editors (doubtless misguided) prefer coordinates not to appear in the infobox at all. I would like a line |display=inline/title in the infobox, to give all 3 options - if an infobox is modified leaving the appearance of the page unchanged, then much of the opposition is disarmed. (If the intention is to irritate as many editors as possible and argue the toss infobox by infobox and page by page, delaying the introduction of microformats and stimulating opposition to the whole idea, then the 'both only' option is optimal.) -- roundhouse0 13:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Given the support, I updated Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(dates_and_numbers)#Geographical_coordinates by adding the above proposal. Thank you for your contributions and support. -- User:Docu
- (previous comment by Docu (talk · contribs)) That isn't manual of style issue; and the proposal above didn't suggest changing the MoS. Was this discussed on Project Infobox? Andy Mabbett 11:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
- Do you disagree with the proposal or are you just on a reverse spree? -- User:Docu
- Do you always answer questions with questions? Andy Mabbett 14:11, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Inline coordinate display
A comments request a while ago invited people to participate in a discussion about inline coordinates displayed as icons instead of numbers. I think it would be better to have that discussion here. Inline coordinates are not too common now, but when we run out of articles to add title coordinates to, people will inevitably start locating smaller things mentioned within articles. In my opinion inline coordinates make article text harder to read, and the numbers don't tell me much; I need a visualisation to make sense of the location. See Ridge Route for example of an article with many inline coordinates. There are undoubtedly people who are fluent coordinate number readers, and prefer keeping the information visible, but I suspect they are in the minority. So how about just making them less visible? Would it be possible to have coordinates work much like references do, by having:
- Inline coordinates displayed not as such, but as a small superscript icon
- Inline coordinates create an anchor link to a table somewhere in the article (at the end, preferably, before references) using the icon as the link, possibly together with an index number
- A <coordinates/> tag at the end of the article expanding to anchors, perhaps a name given with coord (as proposed here), and the coordinates themselves.
This would still keep coordinates editable where they are first mentioned, so editors wouldn't have trouble finding them. It would follow the Wikipedia link style where linked words lead to other articles, and superscript notation right after a word lead elsewhere in the same article. The references-style table placement tag would likely need a modification for the references extension though to make it more general. Thoughts? --Para 13:01, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- The use of an icon to hide the coordinates would, like one of your other suggestions, involve hidden metadata; I refer you to our previous discussion on that subject; and to our discussion as to why your proposal to add a name value to {{coord}} is flawed. Andy Mabbett 16:50, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- Please read the proposal before commenting. I did not suggest hiding the coordinates, but placing them elsewhere in the article with a direct link between. --Para 17:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- Do you mean that your three numbered items are a not alternative choices? If so, then I think your proposal would work in some cases as I suggested at Talk:Ridge_Route#move_inline_coordinates_into_table, but the suggestion was not liked there. How many pages have coordinates inline in the manner and quantity of those at Ridge Route? Andy Mabbett 17:39, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- Obviously the items wouldn't all work on their own, but all together, in that order of reader perception. Inline coordinates are few now, but again, as I said, they are likely to become more common once title coordinates have been added to our articles. The discussion you cite has three contributors, two of which are us, so you can hardly give any weight to that. --Para 18:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
- I like the idea of superscripts with a <coordinates/> tag, working not unlike the idea (which people are now accustomed to) ... very good. I think any long walk or route/road/canal might lend itself to this treatment. I think a table of co-ordinates is (or can be seen as) rather intrusive and also difficult to maintain, much as a table of refs would be. -- roundhouse0 18:34, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Heights
While looking up heights of hills & mountains, I came across a site that gives coordinates (including height) of trig stations (probably Canberra specific). area around Red Hill, Australian Capital Territory. [How] should I include this in articles? --RobBrisbane 08:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Changing {{Geolinks-start}}
{{Geolinks-start}}, which is called by {{Geolinks-US-buildingscale}}, still uses {{coor}}. Shouldn't we update it to use {{coord}}? I am an admin, so I can edit the template, but I don't want to break anything :-) --bdesham ★ 18:08, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
- There's talk above to get rid of all coordinate entry templates except {{coord}} and templates using the proposed standard keywords as parameters. That means that coord should be used directly and not through another template. The Geolinks templates only duplicate GeoHack, and if there's something wrong with GeoHack, we should work on improving it instead of building alternative systems on the side. The choice of geographical information service should be left to the reader in all cases. --Para 17:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- I've gone ahead and changed {{Geolinks-start}} to use {{coord}}. This fixes a lot of Geolinks templates; unfortunately, they're all really redundant and so I've had to change a couple of others (e.g. {{Geolinks-US-streetscale}}) manually. --bdesham ★ 17:45, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
- The change lead to the coordinates being bolded. I reverted the change as it didn't add much besides the bolding. Please use test before changing numerous pages. -- User:Docu
- I removed the bolding on Geolinks-start -- dml 17:53, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Please also restore the use of {{coord}}, as requested on its talk page. Thank you.. Andy Mabbett 19:17, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- I have restored the use of {{coord}} and removed the bolding. @Docu: as you can see from Template:Coord, that template is now preferred over the deprecated {{coor}}. By the way, it does "add much" vis-à-vis microformats. Cheers, bdesham ★ 20:00, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- Apparently on {{coord}} it reads that everything else is depreciated.
- The current solution is just, that there are several ways to add coordinates, where coord is a problematic way to do it, as it's not generally being parsed yet, e.g. by sk. BTW you may add the microformat directly to geolinks. -- User:Docu
- Docu (talk · contribs) wrote: "coord is a problematic way to do it" - you keep making these unfounded and unsupported assertions. I note that you have raised no supposed bugs on Template talk:Coord. {{coord}} is being parsed by Google Earth. Adding the microformat mark-up directly to the Geolinks template would not give the other benefits of Coord, such as giving the user the choice of display type. If by "sk" you mean "Stefan Kühn" of Wikipedia-World, he stated in early June that he would start parsing it. If he has failed to do so, over a month later, why should that stop Wikipedia from progressing? Andy Mabbett 08:44, 14 July 2007
- Pigsonthewing: oddly, you can't provide us with a proof for the ways you are asserting coord is being parsed. So why not stop doing that? -- User:Docu
- Why is the bolding gone? Geolinks-start has been bold for years (since 2004: I went back and checked) --- why the sudden change? It looks wrong to me now. hike395 15:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
- I think it was bold to show that it marked a subsection of the external links section, similar to triple equals. Now, the map external links are not well distinguished from the other links in the same section. hike395 01:29, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
- I can see your point, but the other links in the "subsection" are indented, and IMO that makes them stand out enough. It would probably be best to change {{Geolinks-start}} to output a === heading ===, but that could lead to silly situations in which the external links section consists entirely of the one subsection. --bdesham ★ 02:54, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
Location of tag
Just a minor formatting query: is there a generally accepted preference for where in the article the {{coord}} tag should be placed? --Muchness 21:20, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe at the end of the article, near the external links section? That's where categories, interlanguage links, and the like are already placed, so that makes the most sense to me. On the other hand, for most situations you're better off just adding an infobox—it will call {{coord}} automatically, and you can put a bunch of other information there too. If you must, there are also the Geolinks templates—see here—although those seem to be deprecated in favor of infoboxes these days. Cheers, bdesham ★ 21:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the help, appreciated. --Muchness 21:48, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Making geographical information services better available
There's discussion at Template talk:GeoTemplate#Redesign.3F and Template talk:GeoTemplate#GeoHack_improvements to improve the page that appears after clicking on coordinates in Wikipedia. Comments and suggestions would be welcome. If the proposed changes can be implemented, the page might finally be usable and useful enough to perhaps let the geolinks templates go. --Para 19:33, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Export points of interest as KML; see them on Google Maps
Pages marked with {{coord}} can be exported as KML (for use in Google Earth, for example) via Brian Suda's site, in this format:
The same URL can be pasted into Google Maps as a search, and will show the locations, as push-pins on a map
- Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 09:53, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
- The template {{kml}} was created - and promptly nominated for deletion. --Para 13:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Possible manual geodata errors
See User:The Anome/Possible manually-generated geodata errors for a subset of entries from User:The Anome/Geodata error triage that have been flagged as errors by the KML user community (via the Google Earth Data Problems Compendium page), but have never (as far as my records show) been edited by the Anomebot.
Some of these will already have been fixed, but they should all be checked by hand just in case.
In the meantime, I have been working on further triaging and fixing of the entries in User:The Anome/Possible bot-generated geodata errors, of which I have currently fixed about 80%. -- The Anome 10:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
Linear features
I propose that we add a section to this project's guidelines, to offer advice on recording coordinates for linear features such as roads, railways, rivers, canals and trails, We could look at current best (and bad!) practice, involve he relevant WikiProjects, and take into account emerging technologies such as {{coord}} and the services linked to form {{kml}}. We should also aim to ensure that any published examples meets current polices, (or see whether such polices are in need of revision). Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 06:20, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is one of my pet peeves too. Geocoded linear features in articles would be very useful for generating complex locator maps. Please have a look at this discussion and commons:Template:GeoPolygon (and the example on the template talk page). --Dschwen 09:50, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- While Polygons and linear features are different, some of the same principles apply. I like your template (though it could be improved by also outputting Geo microformats; perhaps by usung multiple instances of {{coord}} as input values), and wonder why you favour that approach there, but oppose it in {{kml}}, and have voted for its deletion. (Other editors might like to see pages, about linear features, using the latter, such as Manchester Ship Canal and Netherton Tunnel Branch Canal). (Folks interested in polygons might also be interested in my proposal to extend the Geo microformat to cater for boundaries.) Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 17:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- At the time I created it I didn't know about the GEO MFs, feel free to improve it though. The idea of my template was centered around creating a query string, containing all coordinate data, which could easily be passed to an external script. I'd think that multiple instances of coord (though a nice an powerful template) would be quite clumsy for larger line features (many points). In any case the template and script thingie was created for commons as a proof of concept, and I wouldn't want tons of coordinates to clutter the article. Another idea would be using subpages to store polygon data. I don't have a silver bullet solution and I fear that introducing line features or polygon data to wikipedia will neither be easy nor doable in a short timeframe. Good luck anyhow. --Dschwen 17:58, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- Line features have already been introduced on WP-EN; I'm seeking discussion of how best to implement them. Thank you, though for your good wishes. While we have a disagreements over an accessibility issue, I don't think were very far apart in wanting to improve Wikipeida's use of coordinates and maps. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 18:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- P.S. Because commons:Template:GeoPolygon has one field for all coordinates )"latitude, longitude, latitude, longitude, latitude, longitude, latitude, longitude, ad infinitum) it is hard to add microformat mark-up without using a template for each coordinates pair. Could commons:Template:GeoPolygon have a separate field for each pair, with some sort of delimiter after the last one? I have no idea whether that's possible or, if it is, how to make it so. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 18:31, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- A road is linear in character, but details are now visible with significant width. In Google Earth one can mn seconds make a translucent orange rectangle showing the location of the fallen I-35W bridge (or enclose the whole bridge in the orange indicator). Would such markers be useful in additions to coordinates? (SEWilco 21:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC))
- Perhaps; but perhaps we also need to walk before we run? ;-) If I mark up the coordinates of a linear structure like a 300-mile motorway, I would include the major junctions, not each twist and turn, let alone its width. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 21:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
- The best description of an object is dependent upon the characteristic being described. For a road being used for movement, the linearity is important because it is a line which connects points. When the road crosses the Golden Gate Bridge, that bridge itself has its own characteristics of interest which may require 2-D or 3-D descriptions. When the topic is toll roads, the pinpoint location of the toll booths along the road are of interest. For an event such as a disastrous landslide across a road or a collapsed bridge, the location(s) of the event are of greater interest than the road itself. The requested guideline will have to be somewhat general. (SEWilco 16:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC))
- Using present Wikipedia technology, I suggest that the guideline recommend describing linear characteristics in the form of a table or list. So a description of the Grand Canyon might be a west-to-east description of highlights along with their coordinates. It would be legible to someone without special tools and each point can be described as needed. Such information can have various markup added, particularly as Wikipedia technology changes. (SEWilco 16:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC))
- In the specific case of a wikitable which contains rows with coordinates, can microformat markers be added before and after a list of individual geotags which marks the list as being a linear object? So a wikitable of Grand Canyon features would look to a microformat browser as being a linear geo object, by adding an appropriate marker ahead of and after the table? (SEWilco 16:59, 6 August 2007 (UTC))
- Not yet, but see geo-extension for waypoints for a proposal to enable that. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 13:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes; see the Manchester/ Netherton examples, above, plus M62 motorway#Route and Walsall Canal (the latter uses {{PoIgb}}; see also {{PoI}}). See also List of United Kingdom locations: Bal, which is not a linear feature, but uses additional hCard properties, in a table. (I will document the various methods, when I have time, under WP:UF) Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 18:48, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
New type value for small scale items
Wikipedians have started adding coordinates to articles of deceased people, see Template talk:Infobox_Person#Resting_place. We have already discussed a similar topic with other small scale objects at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geographical coordinates/archive011#Articles_that_do_not_need_coordinates. Usefulness, accuracy and reviewability aside, should we add another type to be used in these very small scale cases instead of landmark? It would make it easier to ignore the redundant information copied from the main article of the location, without relying on categorisation only. How about something like type:object with scale 1:500? --Para 21:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Little boxes, little boxes
- The following was copied from a subdiscussion about viewing all coordinates on a page such as List of impact craters in the United States and Central America. The template {{kml}} currently emits this text (with links)
# Export points of interest (as KML) # View points of interest on Google Maps
and it is planned to add additional such services.
I was thinking of something more like the Commons box, but without the big logo, and brief text such as "A collection of coordinates is available.". At first I thought it should go by the coordinates. But a right-side box in External Links seems better, particularly as it can then be found when you're looking for it. I'm using an external link in the examples but should be a link to a coordinate collection selection page.
Here's one based on the box linking to the Labelled Image Editor (used for Labelled Maps):
of coordinates
is available.
A box stripped down from Commons box:
A box based on the Portal box:
A collection of coordinates is available. |
(SEWilco 17:35, 11 August 2007 (UTC))
- I think you should raise these issues - which have merit (but which require different wording) on the talk page for {{kml}} or WP:GEO. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 17:53, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
- End of copied text from Template talk:Coord.
- Perhaps better text in the box would be "This article contains a collection of coordinates." because that is a statement of fact about the article which would be more true in printed form than "is available" being on a piece of paper. (SEWilco 05:02, 13 August 2007 (UTC))
- It may be better for the link text to convey an action "The coordinates on this page are available on maps, or for downloading", or some such); with the box styled to not be printed. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 11:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Such indicators are not needed. Wikipedia is filled with articles that in addition to the main topic of the article handle subtopics that are either a part of the topic or related to it. There has never been any need to give self-referential hints to readers that the article provides more complete information than its name might imply; the readers can see that themselves after having looked at the article for a moment. Also, there was big controversy over having coordinates in articles' titles at all when they were first introduced. Each mention of coordinates now links to a list of dozens of tools, with no other special presentation in articles. Having this kml thing in External links is questionable already, so a big box to showcase the same external links and proprietary formats in an even more visible way will most certainly not pass. --Para 07:46, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- "Having this kml thing in External links is questionable already..." Others seem to think not; your motion to delete the template having been soundly defeated; and you have yet to provide an form of viable alternative. Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 11:03, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- If you say no indicator is needed, please show me where to click in List of sequoia groves to view all the coordinates in the article. When I click on a single coordinate I get a GeoTemplate list, which only lets me see that one point which I selected. I think an indicator is needed of where I should click to view all the coordinates. (SEWilco 18:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC))
- The interface in Wikipedia to have more information of coordinates is to click on any of them and choose a service of your preference. Indicators aren't used for any other similar minor details in articles, and the variety of available services for these minor details doesn't make them any more special. Adding the KML service links to the standard list is unfortunately not possible yet, as a single loudmouth keeps blocking the required coord|name= modification by making it seem to admins as if discussion was still going on or that his objections were worth noting. Still, the link to the services won't be some separate and different indicator of an available service type, but the same Wikipedia coordinates interface everyone knows already. --Para 19:25, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
New template: {{geodata-check}}
A new template, {{geodata-check}}, now provides a way of marking pages as having possibly erroneous geodata. Its only effect is to add pages to Category:Pages requiring geodata verification, and to provide a place for putting hint information in its "was" and "suggest" parameters -- it does not make any visible change to the page content.
The intent of this tag is to call for manual supervision. Bot edits should only be made to fix pages listed with this tag if they are very low risk edits, with some form of verification available from an independent data source. I've now tagged all the pages reported as dubious by the Google Earth users' group that I have not personally fixed, either with bot edits, or manually.
Most/many of these are now fixed, but this is a trial run for this mechanism: please remove the tag from pages which can be verified as already correct or have already been fixed, or correct the coordinates if they are incorrect.
This tag is intended to be bot-friendly, and will be integrated into the Anomebot system soon. -- The Anome 09:18, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
New template: {{geodata-request}}
The experimental template {{geodata-request}} is intended to be used to flag pages that should have geodata, but are not yet tagged with any of the coordinates templates. Unlike the now-deprecated {{LocateMe}} tag, it is intended to be placed in the article body: it does make any visible change to the article, other than adding it to a category. This tag is intended to be bot-friendly, and will be integrated into the Anomebot system soon. -- The Anome 10:22, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Since when was LocateMe, or other templates in that family, deprecated? Andy Mabbett | Talk to Andy Mabbett 11:09, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- The idea behind this tag is to be discreet, and not to bother regular readers with large banners or boxes in the article. People didn't like {{LocateMe}} being stuck in the article for this reason, so {{LocateMe}} got chopped out of a large number of articles, and put on the talk page instead. In my opinion, putting maintenance tags on talk pages adds an extra level of complexity which I'd rather avoid unless strictly necessary. If we want to put a page in a category, we should put the page into the category. It's easier for bots, and easier for people. -- The Anome 11:12, 13 August 2007 (UTC)