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Team flags?
Is there any consensus for "team flags", such as seen on List of winners of J. League Division 2 and predecessors#Total Wins? I would presume not, but I'd like some opinions before I remove all these. They are also used on many maps (via {{Team flag location}}), such as {{Japan football clubs map 2010}}. The "team flags" are so tiny, they are useless—the convention of distinguishing between tiny, tinier, and tiniest to indicate division 1, division 2, etc. seems especially poor. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:47, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
- But wait, there's more! I see there is an entire set of these on Commons (see commons:Category:Fantasy football flags and commons:List of 600px association football flags), and usage on en.wiki isn't limited to the Japanese leagues I found above. See 2009–10 Eccellenza, for example. They seem to be used frequently on other wikis (e.g. it:Serhij Rebrov) but do we really want these...? Many of the images are described as "fictional" flags on the Commons image description page. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:00, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
- Those Japanese ones all seem entirely fictional. They need to go, period. JonBroxton (talk) 19:22, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
- If anyone has the time, it would be well worth taking a fine-toothed comb to the contributions of anyone involved in that category. Tons of other nonsense will probably get found. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 19:54, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
It turns out that there wasn't "tons of other nonsense", just a few kilos. ;) I wrote a Perl script to query the Commons category, and then query for all en.wiki mainspace articles that used each of those fantasy flags. The result was a list of 74 articles, most (but not all) football related. I could use some help in cleaning these up. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- On a related note, what's up with the use of File:The death.svg in sports articles? – PeeJay 20:21, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- I guess that a number of editors felt an ambiguous image displayed a club going out of business better than a clear footnote. I've removed the flags from a few articles, but most of the Japan-related ones are templates created by this person. Some of these articles are woeful, especially this one (OR and POV overload). Argyle 4 Lifetalk 21:26, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
A-League & K-League and probably articles related to them though I haven't bothered to check. Rabbitjumpz (talk) 13:32, 1 May 2011 (UTC)
- I removed a lot of these today, but I'm starting to get some of the inevitable pushback from inexperienced editors. Additional eyes on these articles would be welcome. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:01, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
I completely disagree with above and believe that these flags are very welcome to illustrate traditional team colors. They are being used for years on Italian wikipedia and their usage qualifies as good practice there. Labeling some editors as "inexperienced" is completely unacceptable qualification because being experienced in certain kind of practice doesn`t mean that such practice itself is correct. I consider that unilateraly deciding that such flags are to be removed and actually starting their removal is worst kind of vandalism. Kostun (talk) 21:34, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- On Italian Wikipedia? That's nice, but please familiarise yourself with WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. When you say "unilaterally deciding", do you actually mean "community conensus"? Because that's what's happening here, and isn't approaching vandalism in the slightest. GiantSnowman 21:58, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
- Apparently Kostun (talk · contribs) is having difficulty understanding the consensus here per these edits. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:42, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- You are clearly correct, Andrwsc. There's even a wiki page called consensus is not unanimity. JonBroxton (talk) 21:01, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Apparently Kostun (talk · contribs) is having difficulty understanding the consensus here per these edits. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:42, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Irony expressed in mentioning Italian wikipedia by GiantSnowman, consistent attempts to qualify me as "inexperienced" and someone "having difficulty" by Andrwsc, general failure to grasp merits of these flags on Italian wikipedia are all indicators that persons so far being involved in this discussion are bias and thus as a group to narrow fail to meet criteria to call themselves "community" and their reasoning "community consensus". All or most of all comments are posted by people from UK which as a society might have its own way of looking on this flags, but their past long-lasting usage (years) and numerous templates created (and hours of work spent to create these) testify otherwise. Additional bias is expressed in the first place naming them "Fantasy" flags which is itself very derogatory - I would propose that we call them Team colors flags. Most of the teams on Continent have their dress composed of two colors and numerous vertical stripes in these colors. Lets promote coexistance of variety of visual concepts instead of uniforming everything according to one selected visual standard. Kostun (talk) 21:43, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- The English Wikipedia is an independent project from the Italian Wikipedia, and "community" refers only to the people editing this project. I said you were "inexperienced" because you have a grand total of 52 edits here. If you take offense to that label, then I apologize. But this conversation thread—and the editors involved in WP:Manual of Style (icons)—have made it clear that this project does not want these types of images in this context. I appreciate your efforts to want to improve things here (and for initiating discussion on this project page), and I also note that WP:Consensus can change, but for now, please abide by the existing consensus. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:00, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Doubtlessly being independent projects, wikis in different languages are also interdependent - meaning in given context that one could serve as a role-model to the others. Some editors have made it clear what they do not want not what "project does not want". I think we can agree to disagree and let different pages use different visual concepts subject to the topic and in this case subject to the type of football competition. I believe that Mitropa Cup which was unofficial competition, where neither UEFA or FIFA was involved could be presented with page displaying team colors. Kostun (talk) 22:19, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't think we can "agree to disagree". It doesn't matter whether it was an official FIFA competition or not, and it doesn't matter what Italian WP does. The consensus on English WP is that these kinds of icons are unofficial, are not directly representative of the teams in question, go against all sorts of Manual of Style guidelines, and just clutter the page. As such, they should be removed. If they were OFFICIAL visual designations of the teams, in the way that national flags are, then things might be different... but they're not, so... JonBroxton (talk) 23:09, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes we can if we try. Let's try to be more tolerant. It should matter to us what are standards of other WP`s unless we think that "we know best". Guidelines are created by Community and English being "Global language" should take in account global diversity and ajust guidelines accordingly. At certain point, after first edit was made, I proposed to use OFFICIAL [designations] but it was swiftly rejected by Andrewsc. I am still open to this idea or atleast let's develop standards in which non-official visual designations could be used - something similar Italians did. Kostun (talk) 23:30, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Andrewsc already told you that that "compromise" will not work as logos are non-free images and can't be used in that way because of copyright issues, as per WP:NFCC policy. And as to your other point - why do we even need to use non-official visual designations? Isn't the team name enough? JonBroxton (talk) 23:34, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- From the point of view of supporter of team whose English language name drastically differs from its Native language name - representation of team only by its name is completely unsatisfactory. Mitropa Cup participants are teams from non-English language areas and deserve to be represented by more than its name. Since most of these nations are defunct, and since logos are non-free images - traditional team colors could serve as partially satisfactory solution. Developing standards for that and specifing cases when they could be used should be something we need to pay attention to. Kostun (talk) 23:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- If a supporter of a foreign team needs additional visual representation to help them understand the article, surely they would be reading the article in their native language, not English. I don't speak Finnish, so it would be pointless of me to read http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Wednesday_FC to find information on the team I support, when I could just read Sheffield Wednesday. JonBroxton (talk) 23:54, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Your first claim is misconception - most of the people on Planet Earth today are billingual - that is they use in their everyday life and activities both their native language and English. There are no more "foreign teams" - many teams today have Global fan base. Some of these people are fans of team from specific country whose language they don`t understand but they surely do understand English. So unlike Finnish, which is serving only Finnish community, English is serving Global community. Kostun (talk) 00:08, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- OK, but I still don't see what that has to do with having little colored icons next to the team name. I don't follow your logic, at all. JonBroxton (talk) 01:24, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- Your first claim is misconception - most of the people on Planet Earth today are billingual - that is they use in their everyday life and activities both their native language and English. There are no more "foreign teams" - many teams today have Global fan base. Some of these people are fans of team from specific country whose language they don`t understand but they surely do understand English. So unlike Finnish, which is serving only Finnish community, English is serving Global community. Kostun (talk) 00:08, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to understand how two 21-pixel colour swatches in the infobox are going to make an entire article improved for non-English readers. Your argument is a straw man. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 02:23, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- If a supporter of a foreign team needs additional visual representation to help them understand the article, surely they would be reading the article in their native language, not English. I don't speak Finnish, so it would be pointless of me to read http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheffield_Wednesday_FC to find information on the team I support, when I could just read Sheffield Wednesday. JonBroxton (talk) 23:54, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- From the point of view of supporter of team whose English language name drastically differs from its Native language name - representation of team only by its name is completely unsatisfactory. Mitropa Cup participants are teams from non-English language areas and deserve to be represented by more than its name. Since most of these nations are defunct, and since logos are non-free images - traditional team colors could serve as partially satisfactory solution. Developing standards for that and specifing cases when they could be used should be something we need to pay attention to. Kostun (talk) 23:51, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Andrewsc already told you that that "compromise" will not work as logos are non-free images and can't be used in that way because of copyright issues, as per WP:NFCC policy. And as to your other point - why do we even need to use non-official visual designations? Isn't the team name enough? JonBroxton (talk) 23:34, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes we can if we try. Let's try to be more tolerant. It should matter to us what are standards of other WP`s unless we think that "we know best". Guidelines are created by Community and English being "Global language" should take in account global diversity and ajust guidelines accordingly. At certain point, after first edit was made, I proposed to use OFFICIAL [designations] but it was swiftly rejected by Andrewsc. I am still open to this idea or atleast let's develop standards in which non-official visual designations could be used - something similar Italians did. Kostun (talk) 23:30, 9 May 2011 (UTC)
Most of the teams in Continental Europe wear dress composed of vertical lines in two colors - when we say "Nerazzurri" everybody knows we are talking about Inter Milan, when we say "Blaugrana" about Barcelona, "Bianconeri" about Juventus, etc. On the stadium itself, fans are also waving flags displaying these two colors in vertical fashion. Representation of these colors has become part of teams identity and 21-pixel representation of the same could serve to same purpose. Andrwsc> We are not targeting non-English readers. We are targeting all English readers most of whom are not native English speakers. Kostun (talk) 16:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)
- I fail to see how adding little flags would assist readers, regardless of their fluency in English. If a reader sees Juventus but needs that information clarifying then they can click on the link. Seeing a little black and white flag next to the name adds nothing to the understanding of what is meant. Many things are part of clubs identities, but they don't all need to be represented in this way - Celtic fans fly the Irish tricolour, for example. A team's colours can be comfortably included in an article on the club itself. When we say "Bianconeri" it is not true that this means Juve. Udinese, Siena and Ascoli all play in black and white and have the same nickname. Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 08:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I dont`t think that Kostun meant anything realated to fluency in English. He made a point about different perception of people from native English speaking areas versus people from non-native English speaking areas (who are equaly fluent in English). I don`t see potential for confusion even if we have teams with same team colors beacuse we will never have combination of same team colors and same team name. Overall interesting concept. 93.157.192.112 (talk) 22:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Seemingly, 1967–68 Mitropa Cup as become the "battleground" (for lack of a better term) on the issue at hand. I for one have had enough of this issue since as far as I am concerned (and so are the rest of this project), consensus is in favor of not using the flags. Additionally, I have opened an SPI case on Kotsun due to recent IP address editing on the aforementioned article. Leave comments if you so please. Thanks. Digirami (talk) 17:03, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- I dont`t think that Kostun meant anything realated to fluency in English. He made a point about different perception of people from native English speaking areas versus people from non-native English speaking areas (who are equaly fluent in English). I don`t see potential for confusion even if we have teams with same team colors beacuse we will never have combination of same team colors and same team name. Overall interesting concept. 93.157.192.112 (talk) 22:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
2010-11 Supercopa de Espana
First leg on the right side should be "Real Madrid vs. Barcelona" and the reverse in the second leg since Madrid won the copa del rey, whose winner always have the first leg at home. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.74.170.145 (talk) 08:11, 29 April 2011
Death!
1926–27 Prima Divisione#Group_D - love the "creative" icon used there....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:41, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- Haha..."creative", or "destructive"? :D FkpCascais (talk) 20:18, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- That cheered me up. Very good. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 20:42, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- Hey, the guy has been cutting heads in a number of leagues in several wikies, check out the file links and global usage! FkpCascais (talk) 20:57, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- But his victims are definitely mostly Italian. Calcio Mussolini? FkpCascais (talk) 21:01, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- FkpCascais - be very careful what you write in your edit summaries.
I would also advise you not to compare fellow editors to Mussolini...GiantSnowman 21:04, 30 April 2011 (UTC)- Chill out Snowy, it´s weekend... after all the template its kinda joke. And I never compared an editor to Mussolini, how you concluded that? I was talking about the template. FkpCascais (talk) 21:09, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, realised that soon after I posted. However, my warning about putting stuff like "nasty bastard" into edit summaries is not suitable - you may simply be personifying a template, but it could quite easily look like an attack on a fellow editor. GiantSnowman 21:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- OK Snowy, I´ll be good! I think the template picture is named Evil bastard or something similar in some video game from where it was probably taken, so that is why I said it... I would never say something like that to somebody personaly, I´m more classy ;) FkpCascais (talk) 21:19, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- PS: Just fyi, I love Italy and Italians. Ah, and specially Italianas, the most beautifull woman in the universe! FkpCascais (talk) 21:21, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, realised that soon after I posted. However, my warning about putting stuff like "nasty bastard" into edit summaries is not suitable - you may simply be personifying a template, but it could quite easily look like an attack on a fellow editor. GiantSnowman 21:12, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- Chill out Snowy, it´s weekend... after all the template its kinda joke. And I never compared an editor to Mussolini, how you concluded that? I was talking about the template. FkpCascais (talk) 21:09, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- FkpCascais - be very careful what you write in your edit summaries.
- That cheered me up. Very good. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 20:42, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
- Haha..."creative", or "destructive"? :D FkpCascais (talk) 20:18, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Someone fancy fixing the rest of these, then? Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward: not at work) - talk 09:09, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've removed all traces of it from main-space articles. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 19:24, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Qampunen believes that using an image of scythe-wielding Skeletor to symbolise the closure of a football club is encyclopaedic. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 20:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Don't lie, I did not say it that way. I said that I did not introduce them to the articles, but I don't mind if they are there because it makes it more enjoyable for the viewers. However, if users do not want them I don't mind getting them removed. Some of the images have been on the article for more than two years now and nobody has ever complained about them. I think they are quite funny and original ;) Qampunen (talk) 21:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- I removed them because I think they are ambiguous and unencyclopaedic, so seeing you put them straight back said to me that you disagree. I'm fairly sure that the images have been on those articles for quite some time because not a lot of people visit those pages. If a club went bust in the Bundesliga, Serie A, the Premier League, etc, for example, and someone placed a small image of the grim reaper next to that club's name on the relevant season article, it would be removed immediately. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 23:01, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- What, 4500 views per month means hardly anyone visits these articles? I mean I know it's not 3000 or 4000 views a day like La Liga, but it is still quite a "few" visits (and they are going up exponentially every month not only because the play-offs are near, but because even the link to the article has been included in the Spanish Wikipedia). I'm sure that people who have seen them do not mind about them. Just because you are not interested in Tercera División does not mean people are not interested in the article. I mean, from now on you will be more interested in League Two for obvious reasons (which does not interest me personally, but I know that some people like you will be), and the visits to that article is almost the same, if not less, than Tercera División. Qampunen (talk) 10:34, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- I love them, they're enjoyable and make the articles far more readable. I don't want to have to scroll down 14 league tables to view a footnote to find out a club is getting dissolved. And they are in no way "ambiguous", there's mouse-over text that clearly says they were dissolved (or banned from the competition in some cases). I wouldn't support introducing the icon as a standard across all articles (Although I wouldn't oppose it either), but if it's already there like that, leave it be. It's a nice little quirk, and is in no way detrimental to the pages, so why bother changing it? SellymeTalk 11:38, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Where is the mouse over on my touch screen device?Gnevin (talk) 22:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- It varies on different devices, but it's usually readahle by holding the image, or by pressing somewhere else and dragging on to the image. And in any case, it's better than nothing (See my above point about how inconvenient notes are to the reader). SellymeTalk 23:50, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- And while we are making information as hard as possible to find .... Simple solution , use words Gnevin (talk) 00:10, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Our software includes one touch jumps from text to reference and one touch return to place in text from reference: there is no need to "scroll down" laboriously. Clubs are not visited by a grim reaper: the icon is far from intuitive. Mouse over text does not appear for those using the very useful navigation popups tool. It should be deleted in all cases. Kevin McE (talk) 00:21, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- And while we are making information as hard as possible to find .... Simple solution , use words Gnevin (talk) 00:10, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- It varies on different devices, but it's usually readahle by holding the image, or by pressing somewhere else and dragging on to the image. And in any case, it's better than nothing (See my above point about how inconvenient notes are to the reader). SellymeTalk 23:50, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Where is the mouse over on my touch screen device?Gnevin (talk) 22:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- I love them, they're enjoyable and make the articles far more readable. I don't want to have to scroll down 14 league tables to view a footnote to find out a club is getting dissolved. And they are in no way "ambiguous", there's mouse-over text that clearly says they were dissolved (or banned from the competition in some cases). I wouldn't support introducing the icon as a standard across all articles (Although I wouldn't oppose it either), but if it's already there like that, leave it be. It's a nice little quirk, and is in no way detrimental to the pages, so why bother changing it? SellymeTalk 11:38, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- What, 4500 views per month means hardly anyone visits these articles? I mean I know it's not 3000 or 4000 views a day like La Liga, but it is still quite a "few" visits (and they are going up exponentially every month not only because the play-offs are near, but because even the link to the article has been included in the Spanish Wikipedia). I'm sure that people who have seen them do not mind about them. Just because you are not interested in Tercera División does not mean people are not interested in the article. I mean, from now on you will be more interested in League Two for obvious reasons (which does not interest me personally, but I know that some people like you will be), and the visits to that article is almost the same, if not less, than Tercera División. Qampunen (talk) 10:34, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- I removed them because I think they are ambiguous and unencyclopaedic, so seeing you put them straight back said to me that you disagree. I'm fairly sure that the images have been on those articles for quite some time because not a lot of people visit those pages. If a club went bust in the Bundesliga, Serie A, the Premier League, etc, for example, and someone placed a small image of the grim reaper next to that club's name on the relevant season article, it would be removed immediately. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 23:01, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Don't lie, I did not say it that way. I said that I did not introduce them to the articles, but I don't mind if they are there because it makes it more enjoyable for the viewers. However, if users do not want them I don't mind getting them removed. Some of the images have been on the article for more than two years now and nobody has ever complained about them. I think they are quite funny and original ;) Qampunen (talk) 21:50, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Qampunen believes that using an image of scythe-wielding Skeletor to symbolise the closure of a football club is encyclopaedic. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 20:16, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
There's a button you can click to get back to where you were now? And I use navigation pop-ups, but mouse-over text still appears for me on Firefox 4, 3.6.16, IE 9, Chrome's latest build, and Opera 4. This icon is not detrimental to Wikipedia in any way, and the 125 people who've viewed the articles daily for years don't seem to mind, either. Wikipedia is meant to be readable, not perfect. Using a 20x15 pixel icon to quickly show disbanding of clubs is in no way anything less than informative and helpful (And is no more ambiguous than a coloured triangle), and although it's somewhat humourous, why is that a bad thing? It is in no way detrimental, so there's no point removing it (Although I wouldn't advocate making it standard). SellymeTalk 01:28, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, there is: the little caret next to the reference number, or the letter if a reference is accessed from more than one place in the article, does precisely that. You're not suggesting that we should announce the demise of a club without referencing it, I trust. And I'm intrigued about getting both pop-up and alt text: I certainly don't get that on Firefox 4, nor did I on previous versions. Kevin McE (talk) 08:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- I believe I see your problem, two of the articles with the images actually do not have alt text, but the first one I checked (which has now had the images removed) did. And no, I'm not saying we should reference it, I believe there should be a citation next to the clubs name if possible, with the image also there to increase readability. If another icon were to be suggested I would be happy with that too, but this one is particularly apt, and the 4000 monthly readers seem to like it enough that it's only just been raised as an issue. SellymeTalk 09:00, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, there is: the little caret next to the reference number, or the letter if a reference is accessed from more than one place in the article, does precisely that. You're not suggesting that we should announce the demise of a club without referencing it, I trust. And I'm intrigued about getting both pop-up and alt text: I certainly don't get that on Firefox 4, nor did I on previous versions. Kevin McE (talk) 08:32, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
USA international?
While searching for lost foreigners in Yugoslav leagues I found Eric Lukin, an American player that played in NK Pomorac Kostrena, and afterwords in Germany with Sportfreunde Siegen, Koblenz and Saarbrucken, before returning to the States. It seems that earlier he played with Chicago Fire. Now, my question is, Playerhistory says he played 6 matches for the US A national team, but I can´t confirm this anywhere. Is it trouth? FkpCascais (talk) 19:49, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- According to WWW.NATIONAL-FOOTBALL-TEAMS.com, no, i found nothing there. Cheers! - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 20:07, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) According to his CV, he played for USA under-18s, but no higher. He doesn't mention Saarbrucken or Chicago Fire, either. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 20:10, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- His CV is selective, a lot of people's are. Here's his profile at transfermarkt [1] - he played for Saarbrücken's reserves. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 20:41, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Just for everyone to know, whenever I check any player I use (NFT, Playerhistory, Transfermarkt and Zerozero) so any info from there I already know. Vasco, I obviously checked that he has no page at NFT, but NFT has missing info about many players, so it doesn´t necessarily mean he didn´t play. Personally, I doubt he played for USA on A level, my only doubt is what Playerhistory means by that info, because Playerhistory is almost a NFT sister, and it is usually quite reliable, so... FkpCascais (talk) 21:03, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- He doesn't appear on the all-time MLS stats history archive, so he definitely never played for Chicago Fire. JonBroxton (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- What about USA national team? FkpCascais (talk) 21:16, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Definitely not the senior team. Maybe he has youth caps. I did a bit more digging around - it seems like he played college soccer at the University of Illinois at Chicago, and was drafted by the Colorado Rapids (not the Fire) in the 2001 MLS SuperDraft, but never signed a pro contract, and never played for them. He seems to be on the roster of a pro indoor soccer team called Chicago Riot, but they haven't actually played a game yet. JonBroxton (talk) 21:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Many thanks, seems that Playerhistory got the national team caps wrong. I thank everyone for helping me over this, and let me know if any of you find anything about him. FkpCascais (talk) 23:11, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Definitely not the senior team. Maybe he has youth caps. I did a bit more digging around - it seems like he played college soccer at the University of Illinois at Chicago, and was drafted by the Colorado Rapids (not the Fire) in the 2001 MLS SuperDraft, but never signed a pro contract, and never played for them. He seems to be on the roster of a pro indoor soccer team called Chicago Riot, but they haven't actually played a game yet. JonBroxton (talk) 21:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- What about USA national team? FkpCascais (talk) 21:16, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- He doesn't appear on the all-time MLS stats history archive, so he definitely never played for Chicago Fire. JonBroxton (talk) 21:14, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Lukin never played for the Chicago Fire senior team, although he did play for the reserves. He was drafted by the Colorado Rapids in 2001 and waived in May 2001. He also signed with TuS Koblenz (there is a decent article in German about him here). Jogurney (talk) 13:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- The information about him being a Chicago Fire player was provided, at least that I know, at his Transfermarkt page, but I knew that the info was probably wrong from the begining, because the first thing I ever knew about him was that he played the 2001-02 season with NK Pomorac, in clubs only season in Croatian top league, when I founded him earlier at HRrepka website. However, his only 1 time appereance left some room open for the possibility for him having played for other teams that same season as well.
- It all started because I had him red-linked in the List of foreign footballers in top leagues of former Yugoslavia, and since Playerhistory attributed him 5 USA NT appereances I touth about making him an article. Now Playerhistory corrected that one by removing those alleged caps, and I have no rush in making him an article until further info about him doesn´t appear. One appearence in Croatian Prva HNL makes him notable enough for an article, and seems he played 52 matches in German Regionalliga Süd ([2]), but my main doubt here was to clarify about him having played for the States national team, or not, so I could bold it, or de-bold it, on the list. FkpCascais (talk) 01:53, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- He certainly never played for the senior US national team. I don't think there are quite enough sources to write a decent article about him - most of the articles I found cover his time as an amateur (playing in high school and college). Jogurney (talk) 12:24, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yeap, he´ll definitely stay in the "stand-by articles to be created" by now. FkpCascais (talk) 15:07, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- He certainly never played for the senior US national team. I don't think there are quite enough sources to write a decent article about him - most of the articles I found cover his time as an amateur (playing in high school and college). Jogurney (talk) 12:24, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Does anyone know the Portuguese club that appears in Preki´s career at his Playerhistory page? I mean, I am a Serbian living in Portugal, so I should know about the Portuguese club of a Serbian player, but I don´t... It isn´t mentioned in his article either. Any clues? FkpCascais (talk) 21:18, 6 May 2011 (UTC) PS: Even the Portuguese site Zerozero fails to include his alleged Portuguese club... FkpCascais (talk) 21:22, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Estrela da Amadora. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:26, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, that´s incredible. Many thanks Struway! Should it be worthfull including in the article? FkpCascais (talk) 23:08, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
- Definitely. GiantSnowman 16:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- I haven´t found the season, nor league caps&goals with Estrela Amadora, so that is why I haven´t added nothing yet. FkpCascais (talk) 15:09, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Definitely. GiantSnowman 16:40, 7 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, that´s incredible. Many thanks Struway! Should it be worthfull including in the article? FkpCascais (talk) 23:08, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
African Football
Been meaning to do this for a while but never had the time to do so. I want to start a sort of African football project, where a contributors who are interested can help by creating or fixing up articles on African football. For example, lots of continental competitions don't have articles for each edition of the competition (see CAF Cup for example). Also, lots of other pages have very little info on them except for scores, etc. I was just wondering if other contributors are interested in doing this .. and how to proceed (create a project page maybe?). Thanks. TonyStarks (talk) 05:19, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'd be interested to help out. I tried cleaning up some of those articles a while ago but the fact of the matter is that the coverage of African football is very scarce in both printed media and online. Maybe an African task force could be established if enough editors show interest? Timbouctou (talk) 07:15, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'd be interested in helping out. I often contribute to African articles. TheBigJagielka (talk) 11:08, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I try to contribute anytime I can. I even recently sourced (NFT) many African national team articles, that were completely unsourced! African football desperatly needs more attention. Tony has already done many good things, and I am very glad he took this initiative. FkpCascais (talk) 17:23, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'd be interested in helping out. I often contribute to African articles. TheBigJagielka (talk) 11:08, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes people! I admit i have rarely edited in African football (only African players playing in Europe), but it deserves the same attention as the "bigger" continents. Well done folks! - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 18:59, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm very glad to hear that some people are interested. I'm sure there's also others out there that would be willing to help if they were aware of what we are doing. The question now is how do we proceed from here? I'm not very familiar with Projects/Task Forces on Wikipedia, so not sure where to go next.TonyStarks (talk) 02:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, it depends on the number of possible participants. As exemple, Timbouctou and I have been working around football in former Yugoslavia, but instead of creating some task force, we ended up working individually but helping eachother cooperatively when necessary. Now, the difference is that about football in ex-Yugoslavia it is only two of us as more established editors, being the most others occasional editors, or editors on specific issues (a specific club, for exemple). The difference is also that former Yugoslav football is already well developed (mostly thanks to a years long work of Timbouctou), but we can´t really say the same for the African case.
- My contribution has been mostly around the African players that are found on the List of foreign footballers in top leagues of former Yugoslavia, with interventions is the clubs where some of those players have played. Also, as I already mentioned, I´ve sourced or updated some African national teams, and I created many categories related to African clubs. But, I am well aware that the needs around African football go way beyond this, so that is why perhaps better than the colaborative work I am used to, a task force where specified tasks would be adressed would be more practical. I beleave the best way could be to see some other already existing similar task forces, and possibly have guidance and recomendations on behalve of editors that created them and participate in those task forces. If not, what we basically need is a page where the priorities about African football would be adressed, such as, which articles need to be created, which need expansion, list of reliable and usefull sources... things like that. FkpCascais (talk) 03:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- My contributions so far included expanding Afro-Asian Cup and creating List of CAF Super Cup winners. I've also tried cleaning up Canon Yaounde and Enyimba F.C. to bring them up to a standard resembling European clubs and I've got a few CAF competitions' "winning managers" lists sitting in my sandbox for ages. I've also started making an updated and improved version of the table at List of top-division football clubs in CAF countries but only got half-way through (also sitting in my sandbox). Anyway, Tony - if you think there's enough of us interested in participating here's a step-by-step guideline on how to create a task force. Timbouctou (talk) 04:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- If there is to be a task force (which I'm supportive of although probably wouldn't join myself), I think the biggest potential value of it would be a compilation of reliable sources for as many countries as possible. Very few people know where to look for Africa-related sources. —WFC— 16:07, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- I know that references will be the main issue but maybe having a task-force will help us overcome this by finding some good sources. In any case, I'm willing to start the task force. Can I count on the following users to join : Timbouctou, FkpCascais, TheBigJagielka, VascoAmaral, .. ? Any others ? I will also contact some individual users that I know regularly contribute to African football, I'm sure they'd be willing to help.TonyStarks (talk) 17:43, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- If there is to be a task force (which I'm supportive of although probably wouldn't join myself), I think the biggest potential value of it would be a compilation of reliable sources for as many countries as possible. Very few people know where to look for Africa-related sources. —WFC— 16:07, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- My contributions so far included expanding Afro-Asian Cup and creating List of CAF Super Cup winners. I've also tried cleaning up Canon Yaounde and Enyimba F.C. to bring them up to a standard resembling European clubs and I've got a few CAF competitions' "winning managers" lists sitting in my sandbox for ages. I've also started making an updated and improved version of the table at List of top-division football clubs in CAF countries but only got half-way through (also sitting in my sandbox). Anyway, Tony - if you think there's enough of us interested in participating here's a step-by-step guideline on how to create a task force. Timbouctou (talk) 04:30, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'm very glad to hear that some people are interested. I'm sure there's also others out there that would be willing to help if they were aware of what we are doing. The question now is how do we proceed from here? I'm not very familiar with Projects/Task Forces on Wikipedia, so not sure where to go next.TonyStarks (talk) 02:48, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
FAC candidate - Bryan Gunn
Hi. I'm getting close to being ready to submit Bryan Gunn to FAC, but would welcome your expert comments now, on what may be missing or wrong with it. Please post to the article talk page. Many thanks. --Dweller (talk) 11:08, 13 May 2011 (UTC)
Fifa World Cup Players to create
Hello! I created this sandbox where I added all the red links of the Fifa World Cup players are not present on en.wiki. I will strive to create them all sooner or later, but I need your help. If someone goes to participate in this project, please, help me, there are many important players waiting to be created Alexxander3000 (talk) 00:31, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Nice idea. I've long been shocked at the number of WC players that have double figure internationals to their credit that nobody has yet created an article for while they happily argue endlessly for an article on a random local kid that hasn't even made a first team appearance yet.--ClubOranjeT 10:36, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Definitely a nice idea. Concerning the three missing Yugoslav players - their articles would have been created long ago but the problem is that in spite of getting called up for WC they were never capped for the national team so information about them is rather scarce. I also suggest double-checking if Wikipedia already has articles on some of the Soviet and Bulgarian players as there are differing transliterations of their names floating around. Similar thing could be said about South American players who are sometimes listed under slightly different names at various websites, and Korean players are also sometimes misnamed on FIFA website. Anyway I'll check around other wikis to see what can be done to reduce the number of missing players (might start with Oscar Rossi). Timbouctou (talk) 10:53, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Fantastic! Meanwhile I should be able to finish the Bolivian players, however, I think doing some extensive research even players who do not have belonged somewhere you should find the statistics for club teams.Alexxander3000 (talk) 11:24, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- This initiative is great. I noteced that many South AMerican players are red-linked. Perhaps a good source for making their articles can be BDFA which does their best to have all national team players with most complete careers as possible. FkpCascais (talk) 13:48, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
regarding section 2.10 redass
firstly the origins of the game are not dated, so the fabrication of this evolution of the headers and volleys game seems to be slightly bias towards creators in northern ireland. i do have a date, locality and specific names of the creators of the game. the problem with sources is that the fact that it is street soccer and there would not be any known publication. but the very fact that from these creators, there were 3 annual seasons of a redass league until it faded out, showed that there was some kind of structure from its development. Also the rules are not right. the very fact that each player can set themselves up, shows a clear lack of ability. this in turn leads oneself to the conclusion that these were not the creators of redass, as the rules are quite primitive. there are a set of rules and they are vital to the game, but they have to be correct to play not only in the single game, but part of a seasonal league.
hopefully this article can be removed and i will have the right to claim the actual origins to the game redass —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.6.233.252 (talk) 02:15, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Ummm, what is a 2.10 redass? Kevin McE (talk) 07:54, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- He means Street football#Redass (or red-arse as we called it). We used to play it at school; it's headers and volleys but whoever is in the net when a predetermined number of goals have been scored has to turn round, bend over, and have the ball kicked at them from close range. It appears that someone has edited the page to make themselves the creator(s) of this game. It should all be removed, as there is no way that anyone could have a reliable source for the invention of a playground game. BigDom 09:07, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Quite possibly the worst article I've ever come across on wiki. Vast majority of sections unsourced, ridiculous claims, results table from an international tournament that might be noteworthy, but no other info, very poorly written, no internal cohesion... just horrible. Kevin McE (talk) 10:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- He means Street football#Redass (or red-arse as we called it). We used to play it at school; it's headers and volleys but whoever is in the net when a predetermined number of goals have been scored has to turn round, bend over, and have the ball kicked at them from close range. It appears that someone has edited the page to make themselves the creator(s) of this game. It should all be removed, as there is no way that anyone could have a reliable source for the invention of a playground game. BigDom 09:07, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Manchester United date of foundation
Hello guys, I'm an Italian user and I would like to know a curiosity. As you know, Manchester United was founded in 1878, but it's really difficult to find the precise date (month and day). Perhaps it's not a vitally important issue, anyway, does anybody know something more? --VAN ZANT (talk) 08:51, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- The early history of many clubs is vague at best. Even with clubs like Man United, nobody knew at the time that a team being founded by a few railwaymen would be an event of significance for future generations. Port Vale probably weren't even founded in 1876, despite what it says on the badge.--EchetusXe 16:56, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
FARC
I have nominated Sheffield Wednesday F.C. for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Arsenikk (talk) 09:38, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Carefully with that acronym. You had me confused for a bit thinking that you some how needed help with something related to the FARC and football haha. Digirami (talk) 14:54, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, happend to me as well, :) FkpCascais (talk) 02:22, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
1936 Olympic Games, the Ferrero Giani mystery
- in the italian team at Berlin OG maybe there was a player, Gianni Ferrero or Ferrero Giani, in the italian national team: the little problem is we ignore everything about him and also journalists are becoming mad searching informations about him :)).. can you help us? 93.56.32.32 (talk) 13:15, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- The roster at Football at the 1936 Summer Olympics – Men's team squads#Italy has Gianni Ferrero as a stand-by goalkeeper who didn't appear in the tournament, and there is no record of him at either FIFA or NFT. GiantSnowman 13:44, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- exact, and nobody is able to find more informations about him, also in city archives; do you know if there is something more on books? 93.56.32.32 (talk) 14:34, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Is there a good picture of him in the olympic squad? There is a good picture of Ferrero Giani in an Empoli FC history book that I have. You probably know he wasn't a goalkeeper. The SAFFA goalkeeper in the matches against Empoli in 1936-37 was Del Terra. Cattivi (talk) 16:22, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- yes, he was a midfielder and Pozzo, for unknown reasons, called him as third Gk.. here there is a photo.. 93.56.46.81 (talk) 19:43, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- He was an utility player (first centre forward, later in his career mainly half back and full back) Vannucci seems to be Pisa's reserve goalkeeper, 1 match in 1935-36 3 in 1936-37 He became their first goalkeeper in 1937-38. Maybe there weren't many good amateur goalkeepers available. I need a much more detailed photograph to identify him. Cattivi (talk) 20:38, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- yes, he was a midfielder and Pozzo, for unknown reasons, called him as third Gk.. here there is a photo.. 93.56.46.81 (talk) 19:43, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Is there a good picture of him in the olympic squad? There is a good picture of Ferrero Giani in an Empoli FC history book that I have. You probably know he wasn't a goalkeeper. The SAFFA goalkeeper in the matches against Empoli in 1936-37 was Del Terra. Cattivi (talk) 16:22, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- exact, and nobody is able to find more informations about him, also in city archives; do you know if there is something more on books? 93.56.32.32 (talk) 14:34, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
Could someone revert this change? IPs, probably from the red half of Manchester, keep moving Man City to below all the other teams with five wins, even though the table is set up such that, where teams have the same number of wins, the one with the most recent win comes first. It's not strictly vandalism, so I'll be in violation of 3RR if I revert again...... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:15, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Voila. GiantSnowman 20:22, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Right, I'm at 3RR myself now, and have to go and write a 4,000 word essay - can anybody else please take over and/or protect/warn etc. etc.? GiantSnowman 08:39, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thing is, the version that both Chris and GiantSnowman reinstated has the table ordered by number of wins as main sort key and then number of runners-up spots as a second sort key, except for Man City. All the IPs are doing is putting Man City in their correct place by number of runners-up spots. That may not be how the table was originally designed to be ordered, but that's what's happened in the last few reversions. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Ah yeah, good point.......... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 09:08, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thing is, the version that both Chris and GiantSnowman reinstated has the table ordered by number of wins as main sort key and then number of runners-up spots as a second sort key, except for Man City. All the IPs are doing is putting Man City in their correct place by number of runners-up spots. That may not be how the table was originally designed to be ordered, but that's what's happened in the last few reversions. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:48, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Right, I'm at 3RR myself now, and have to go and write a 4,000 word essay - can anybody else please take over and/or protect/warn etc. etc.? GiantSnowman 08:39, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Infobox football biography field format
My bot is in the process of cleaning out Category:Football biography using deprecated parameters, and the current code attempts to minimize the diffs by not introducing extra newlines, or reordering the fields. However, I was thinking that they resulting code isn't necessarily that "clean" (e.g., indented and aligned). So, I was wondering if there are any preferences for the resulting "indented and aligned" format. I would probably do this as a second pass, with lower priority, since the higher priority is just converting the infobox and making sure there are no errors (e.g., pipes in the wrong position, duplicate fields, or other mangling). So, here are some of the formats that I have seen:
- Example 1
| years1 = 1980-1984 | years2 = 1984-1986 | years3 = 1986-1988 | clubs1 = Club 1 | clubs2 = Club 2 | clubs3 = Club 3 | caps1 = 10 | goals1 = 1 | caps2 = 11 | goals2 = 2 | caps3 = 12 | goals3 = 3
- Example 2
| years1 = 1980-1984 | years2 = 1984-1986 | years3 = 1986-1988 | clubs1 = Club 1 | clubs2 = Club 2 | clubs3 = Club 3 | caps1 = 10 | caps2 = 11 | caps3 = 12 | goals1 = 1 | goals2 = 2 | goals3 = 3
- Example 3
| years1 = 1980-1984 | clubs1 = Club 1 | caps1 = 10 | goals1 = 1 | years2 = 1984-1986 | clubs2 = Club 2 | caps2 = 11 | goals2 = 2 | years3 = 1986-1988 | clubs3 = Club 3 | caps3 = 12 | goals3 = 3
- Example 4
| years1 = 1980-1984 | clubs1 = Club 1 | caps1 = 10 | goals1 = 1 | years2 = 1984-1986 | clubs2 = Club 2 | caps2 = 11 | goals2 = 2 | years3 = 1986-1988 | clubs3 = Club 3 | caps3 = 12 | goals3 = 3
I personally like the ones the best that done try to compress the data into a single line (e.g., caps and goals on the same line), mostly due to the fact that novice editors frequently mistakenly place the data after the pipe, rather than before the pipe. This is the same reason why I like the pipes at the start of the line, rather than the end of the line. Note that "Example 4" often results in very long lines once you add citations and wikilinks for the clubs. However, I really don't have that strong of an opinion. I believe the other bot was using something like "Example 1" or "Example 2", but I don't recall exactly. My bot is currently transforming to "Example 1", but compressed into one line for "years", one line for "clubs" and one line for "caps and goals", but again, this is just to minimize the diffs for auditing purposes. Any opinions? Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 22:21, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've always used the layout in Example 4. It makes sense to keep the statistics for each club together, and is easier to edit for new and experienced editors alike. BigDom 22:29, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- I Like example 4 as well keeps everything compact and easier to edit 22:40, 14 May 2011 (UTC)Warburton1368 (talk)
- Either option 3 or 4 work best because they make it easier to add a new row when a player moves to a new club. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 22:42, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- In the end, it doesn't really matter besides an editing standpoint... Of which, 3 & 4 are the best and easiest. Digirami (talk) 23:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Personally I prefer No. 3, but it's all good in the hood - it doesn't affect how you read the page one iota. GiantSnowman 23:29, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Mi preferido, el trés. FkpCascais (talk) 02:19, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Like the GiantSnowman, I prefer option 3; definitely not 1 or 2 for the reasons given by ArtVandelay. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 04:36, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Fan of No. 4 for readability and easy copy-down per ArtVandelay above, Although I typically move club to end of line as I can then line up years, caps, goals, clubs under each other for easy reading - club names can be long links. One particular editor often reformats any I do in format 4 because "it gives him a headache". I often wonder what that user's screen set-up is... --ClubOranjeT 04:47, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Like the GiantSnowman, I prefer option 3; definitely not 1 or 2 for the reasons given by ArtVandelay. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 04:36, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Mi preferido, el trés. FkpCascais (talk) 02:19, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Personally I prefer No. 3, but it's all good in the hood - it doesn't affect how you read the page one iota. GiantSnowman 23:29, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- In the end, it doesn't really matter besides an editing standpoint... Of which, 3 & 4 are the best and easiest. Digirami (talk) 23:12, 14 May 2011 (UTC)
- Example 4a - per Plasikspork example with diff length club names
| years1 = 1980-1984 | clubs1 = [[Long club name Club 1]] | caps1 = 10 | goals1 = 1 | years2 = 1984-1986 | clubs2 = [[ShortClub 2]] | caps2 = 11 | goals2 = 2 | years3 = 1986-1988 | clubs3 = [[Long piped club name Club 3|Piped Club3]] | caps3 = 12 | goals3 = 3
- Example 4b - club at end example with diff length club names
| years1 = 1980-1984 | caps1 = 10 | goals1 = 1 | clubs1 = [[Long club name Club 1]] | years2 = 1984-1986 | caps2 = 11 | goals2 = 2 | clubs2 = [[ShortClub 2]] | years3 = 1986-1988 | caps3 = 12 | goals3 = 3 | clubs3 = [[Long piped club name Club 3|Piped Club3]]
Examples for #4 readability in real life editing.--ClubOranjeT 04:55, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
For ease of use, No. 4 for me as well. For a player with many clubs, the infobox in the other formats just goes on forever and I wonder if it might be offputting for the newcomer, and format 2 has each club's pieces of information so far apart it encourages editors to make mistakes. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:55, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yes I also prefer number 4. It reads a lot easier and helps to reduce the length of the infobox by keeping one club on one line. I don't tend to reference directly to the infobox as a rule (but keep references in the main body) so the need for putting club at the end (as per 4b) doesn't arise for me. I use the 4a example but keep the four fields lined up throughout, and generally find no problems space-wise with this. Eldumpo (talk) 09:43, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- I prefer number 3, but any of the numbers 4 is okay as well. I only change infoboxes which are formatted along numbers 1 and 2 because these formats make it difficult to find the right caps and goals for a certain club. --Jaellee (talk) 09:53, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- I use 4a.--EchetusXe 11:41, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- I use example 3. TheBigJagielka (talk) 12:39, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- I use 4b, I like to see the caps and the goals grouped together. Some club names do use a lot of pipe. Jared Preston (talk) 19:43, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- I use example 3. TheBigJagielka (talk) 12:39, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- I use 4a.--EchetusXe 11:41, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- I prefer number 3, but any of the numbers 4 is okay as well. I only change infoboxes which are formatted along numbers 1 and 2 because these formats make it difficult to find the right caps and goals for a certain club. --Jaellee (talk) 09:53, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- I go with number#4, everything related to one particular club all in same line. Cheers! - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 20:05, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- 4b Better to have club names at the end keeps all caps and goals grouped together which dosent happen in 4a.20:41, 15 May 2011 (UTC)Warburton1368 (talk)
- I prefer 4a, but use spacing to align caps and goals. Brad78 (talk) 20:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Number 3. Anything else is just a nightmare to work with. JonBroxton (talk) 17:24, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- I prefer 4a, but use spacing to align caps and goals. Brad78 (talk) 20:54, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- 4b Better to have club names at the end keeps all caps and goals grouped together which dosent happen in 4a.20:41, 15 May 2011 (UTC)Warburton1368 (talk)
- Example 3b
| years1 = 1980-1984 | clubs1 = Club 1 | caps1 = 10 | goals1 = 1 | years2 = 1984-1986 | clubs2 = Club 2 | caps2 = 11 | goals2 = 2 | years3 = 1986-1988 | clubs3 = Club 3 | caps3 = 12 | goals3 = 3
I like either number 3 or number 3b, but anything other than 1 or 2 is good. Frietjes (talk) 17:36, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- This one, 3b, definitelly seems to be the most practical. FkpCascais (talk) 20:14, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
empty, we should do something about--Feroang (talk) 02:51, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- This could go there. FkpCascais (talk) 04:10, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Thodoris Moschonas
Anyone aware of anything that has changed since Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thodoris Moschonas to prevent a G4 of this recreation? I'm guessing it is not substantially different article wise. --ClubOranjeT 05:05, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- According to the club website he has yet to appear in the Greek league. Timbouctou (talk) 07:17, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Likewise Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victor Klonaridis, according to the AEK site. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:35, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
2012 OFC Nations Cup
Has this now been cancelled ? See here "A proposal to revive the OFC Nations Cup for 2012, which involved the All Whites and five of the Pacific Island nations, was deferred to 2015. Instead, a Pacific Cup (involving the top five teams from the 2011 Pacific Games and possibly the New Zealand Olympic team) will be held in February 2012." TheBigJagielka (talk) 12:15, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
AfD candidate - Sunny Ogbemudia Omoregie
Again i am sorry for not doing this in the correct place, but that's not the most important i believe, the fact that it is (eventually) deleted is.
This player does not reach WP:NOTABILITY status, not by a long shot, has only played in amateur football. Contracted by CD Numancia, he ONLY played for CD Numancia B, the reserves, in Tercera División and, after being released in 2010, has represented more teams in the category, CD Victoria and FC Torrevieja (please see this link http://www.futbolme.com/com/jugadores.asp?id_jugador=23393). By the way, the latter club needs a 500% cleanup, will see to it today...
Also, the piece contains storyline added by User:Zombie433 (you may remember him), without any references, so it can very well be another one of his lies.
Attentively, thank you very much in advance - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 16:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Also, for any of you that might make the (natural) confusion, this player is not this player! Cheers - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 16:31, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
- Yep, appears to fail WP:NFOOTBALL and WP:GNG, perfect candidate for deletion, good find. GiantSnowman 22:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Flags
Can you advise if my edit here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2010–11_Premier_League&oldid=429248155 is the correct interpretation of this projects guidelines re flags ? Gnevin (talk) 17:06, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Just how many (and when?)
The article on Mágico González, regarding his national team input, keeps being changed (not saying it is vandalism, no siree), and we certainly can't rely on NATIONAL-FOOTBALL-TEAMS.com for this player, there he appears with the grand total of 2 caps/0 goals, when he played in 3 in the 1982 FIFA World Cup alone :)
There is no consensus on anything: caps, appearances, debut date (one user added a chart with international goals, and he scored many against CLUBS, he also corrected his debut data saying it was against Vitória F.C., which is another club, i though those were not FIFA-recognized). Really baffling, inputs please! - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 22:45, 15 May 2011 (UTC)
Date formatting/consistency on tournament article
Just had a question of the project regarding a bit of a spat I'm having with an editor at 2008 Canadian Championship regarding date formatting. Thought I should take it here rather than get into an edit war. I've begun editing the four existing Canadian Championship articles with the hopes of bringing them up to B or GA status. Three of the articles (2009, 2010, and 2011) use the date format "month dd, year" for the game summary tables, while the 2008 article uses a "year-mm-dd" format. I edited 2008 to change the format to be consistent with the three other articles, but was reverted on account of WP:MOSDATE. My interpretation of this policy is that consistency is key, while the other user is arguing that this does not matter and that the original date format should be used regardless of what the other articles look like. The user in question seemed a little uncivil in his edit description towards my good faith edit of the page so I figured I shouldn't just take the revert lightly. Is there a WP:FOOTY consensus already existing on this matter? I apologize if I'm being completely blind to this, as I don't tend to stray too often into this project's waters, but have really grown an interest in the Canadian domestic club tournament and want to bring my editing "talents" to those articles. Appreciate the help, thanks! – Nurmsook! talk... 04:18, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- The editor in question was completely out of line in telling you to "push off" in an edit summary, especially as your edit was completely good faith, but he does tend to have a rather aggressive and antagonistic attitude with pretty much everyone he comes into contact with, so that's no surprise. As far as the date format is concerned, and taking into account the fact that it is a Canada-specific tournament, my suggestion would be to use whatever date format is most commonly used in Canada, be it the American standard of MMM-DD-YYYY, or the European way of DD-MMM-YYYY, and then apply that across all the articles. The WP:STRONGNAT part of WP:MOSDATE seems to agree with that. JonBroxton (talk) 17:20, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Loan/Buy
As a continuation to this question I had a few weeks back, can someone please tell me what they think ? Here are some sources regarding the transfer: [3], [4], [5], and finally the Player profile on official Millwall site. As you can see, one source says that he will join them permanently after the end of the season (but the guy that maintains the Millwall article on Wikipedia dismissed it as a "weak and unreputable source" and reverted my edit), while the other sources are not specific enough on the matter. However, the Millwall site still has him listed as "on loan". Thanks! TonyStarks (talk) 08:32, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- Am I missing something - hasn't the Championship season finished now? I assume the Millwall site simply hasn't updated their squad page yet. J Mo 101 (talk) 10:15, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- In England, the transfer window opens as soon as a club has played its last game, so Millwall (along with most other clubs) are now able to sign players permanently. BigDom 11:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- The main reason I ask the question is about his stats, specifically the last 4 games of the season that he played (in between April 20th, the date the move was made official, and the end of the season). Should those 4 appearances be listed under his "loan" to Millwall or under the permanent section ?TonyStarks (talk) 15:14, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- In England, the transfer window opens as soon as a club has played its last game, so Millwall (along with most other clubs) are now able to sign players permanently. BigDom 11:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Player honours
What is the point of the numbers "1" or "2" in, for example, Michael Owen's honours list? Most of us can count that far! -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 11:52, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- I agree, I don't keep them for low numbers, but I suppose there is a cut-off point where they may become useful e.g. Ryan Giggs Premier League titles? Eldumpo (talk) 12:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with Eldumpo, even though i usually don't even insert them when a player has "loads of". For instance we can write in INTRO, in the likes of Giggs, "appeared in 745 official games with X club, helping it to nine Premier League titles and seven 1/2 FA Cups". Just a thought... - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Funny names
In Palamós CF, apparently the name of the manager (see infobox) is not vandalism, he is named that way (per LINK#2 - click on it, then click on PLANTILLA Y FICHAJES, then look at the bottom). Wow, talk about impervious defenses, and his assistant could be this guy!
Cheers - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:54, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- UK editors may also find it quite amusing that they are in the same division as a team called Prat....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 15:47, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Club Home & Away Strips
Is there any where there are guidelines / Templates on how to change the clubs strip to the new season colours. 16:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)Warburton1368 (talk)
- Template:Football kit. JonBroxton (talk) 17:07, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
Kyle Bartley
Can I have a hand at the Kyle Bartley page please, IPs keep on adding the unreferenced information that Bartley won the Scottish Premiership with Rangers, and I've already reached 3RR. Thanks, GiantSnowman 18:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- Snowy, forgive me if i am not correct, but can't you revert more than 3 times if you're doing the correct thing? Baffling! - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 19:56, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- The 3RR can only be ignored if you're reverting obvious vandalism or contentious BLP violations (and a few other exemptions which probably aren't relevant here). Although Snowman is in the right here, his reverts don't seem to meet these exemptions so he's right to stop before he oversteps the mark. —BETTIA— talk 08:26, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Just as an aside, what the hell is going on in File:Kyle Bartley - Rangers.jpg......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:49, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- The 3RR can only be ignored if you're reverting obvious vandalism or contentious BLP violations (and a few other exemptions which probably aren't relevant here). Although Snowman is in the right here, his reverts don't seem to meet these exemptions so he's right to stop before he oversteps the mark. —BETTIA— talk 08:26, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
He did win an SPL medal with Rangers. [6] Banana Fingers (talk) 10:41, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Some fan's blog is not a reliable source -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:48, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I know, but in terms of Arsenal, arsenalyouth.wordprss and even younggunsblog.co.uk aren't random fan blogs. At the same time, look at the photo(s), Bartley is there celebrating. Surely, he wouldn't of bothered showing up if he wasn't going to pick up a medal? Banana Fingers (talk) 19:22, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- The SPL rules are available on their official website (www.scotprem.com - "about" section). Rule A6.7 covers it. Each champion team gets 25 medals, with the guideline being 10 league matches (25% of 38). Rangers had quite a small squad this year (very well publicised and intensely tedious financial issues) so it is possible that some players with less than 10 appearances were given one of the 25 medals. Certainly there was a picture of three youth players (Gregg Wylde, Kyle Hutton and Jamie Ness) in the paper this morning, all with SPL medals. Wylde (17) and Ness (11) both played 10 or more games, but Hutton (7) didn't. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 20:16, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I know, but in terms of Arsenal, arsenalyouth.wordprss and even younggunsblog.co.uk aren't random fan blogs. At the same time, look at the photo(s), Bartley is there celebrating. Surely, he wouldn't of bothered showing up if he wasn't going to pick up a medal? Banana Fingers (talk) 19:22, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
2011 Super-20 League season
Short question, most likely interesting for our North American contributors: Is 2011 Super-20 League season, a season article of this North American youth league notable enough to keep? Right now, I am a little undecided if I should put a ton of maintenance tags onto the article or plain outright PROD it, as it basically is a stats dump in its current state... --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 21:21, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- I would say it's not notable. The USL Super-20 League is the highest level of formally organizsed national youth soccer in the United States (for players 20 years old or younger), and is a step up from the Super-Y League and a 2 steps up from top level AYSO competitions. The competition itself is certainly notable enough to support an article, but season-by-season articles are overkill IMHO. I think it would be fine to keep a record of the champions, maybe the final stages of the national finals, in the article about the league, but having each year's regional tables and so on seems a bit too much. JonBroxton (talk) 21:33, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks. I have just PRODded it, together with a link to this discussion. --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 09:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Hm... vandalism, inappropriate edit, or just a plain good laugh?
Take a look at the picture in the infobox of this version of 2010–11 Fußball-Bundesliga and judge for yourself...:-D --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 21:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- It shows several players of the current champions, Borussia Dortmund, engaging in title celebrations. Where's the vandalism man? The glasses are a bit "silly", i'll give you that... - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 22:27, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly Funny. Not entirely sure if its inappropriate though 22:37, 16 May 2011 (UTC)Warburton1368 (talk)
- I guess that photo has been removed for the same reason that this picture is not present here. It looks like it belongs on the front cover of a rap album and not on an encyclopaedia.--EchetusXe 00:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Neil Ruddock still wins. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Echetus: I for one think Pinochet's rap edition deserves inclusion. If you think about it the man is a walking cliche of South American dictators and a rap album picture would be very appropriate for his bio. It encapsulates everything the man was about. I also don't see anything wrong with Dortmund's players celebrating in silly glasses. It's not like every article has to have a passport photo of its subject. Timbouctou (talk) 17:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Inclusion of said photo in a written season summary should be fine, then. However, this picture does definitely not belong into the infobox. --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 18:12, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- @Echetus: I for one think Pinochet's rap edition deserves inclusion. If you think about it the man is a walking cliche of South American dictators and a rap album picture would be very appropriate for his bio. It encapsulates everything the man was about. I also don't see anything wrong with Dortmund's players celebrating in silly glasses. It's not like every article has to have a passport photo of its subject. Timbouctou (talk) 17:32, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Neil Ruddock still wins. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:38, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- I guess that photo has been removed for the same reason that this picture is not present here. It looks like it belongs on the front cover of a rap album and not on an encyclopaedia.--EchetusXe 00:06, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Certainly Funny. Not entirely sure if its inappropriate though 22:37, 16 May 2011 (UTC)Warburton1368 (talk)
I continue to have a run-in with a anon user about this article, where he: continues to engage in overlinking, also adding what i (could be wrong though) perceive as over-information (i think it belongs in the page of Valencia CF (what they did and against which club, etc, each season). I have messaged the user 4,5 times, received ZERO feedback.
So, which approach is best, in the "task force"'s opinion? Also, the user (and he edits from England, so i must not be "holier than thou" here) insists on correcting "quarterfinals" to "quarter-finals", i thought both were correct, am i wrong?
Seriously, i am getting a bit fed up with this lack of cooperation, i have inclusively been called a CUNT over this article (not sure if it was this user, but it was from England, after i protected the page). Attentively, ty very much with whatever can be provided to improve my wiki/approach - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
- There certainly is some overlinking in there - in the first paragraph in the coaching section for example, there's no need to link the Copa del Rey and 2004–05 Copa del Rey in the same sentence. I also don't think there's any need to link Murcia and Andalusia at all - having quick access to the location and history of these regions isn't really necessary for a footy biography. The text itself seems to be fine at the moment, although a mention of him winning the Miguel Munoz Trophy would be good. As far as the "quarterfinal / quarter-final" dispute goes, this looks like a British English vs American English thing. From what I can tell, most American English dictionaries use "quarterfinal" while "quarter-final" is more common in the UK. —BETTIA— talk 08:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for your input and help BETTIA, very much. I will change it to "quarter-final" then. Why we can't link the geographic regions is another matter, but i understand your approach. Cheers - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 13:07, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
is time to takeo out of World Football Challenge to the new articles 2009 World Football Challenge and 2011 World Football Challenge as news later said an put it in Template:Friendly tournaments 2011--Feroang (talk) 00:13, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
"Club-by-club Review" section at 2010–11 Premier League
It is generally appreciated that prose giving an overview of the season is added to season articles. However, the club-by-club review section which has recently been added to the 2010–11 Premier League article puzzles me a little bit because of a few things. First of all, it is a huge chunk of text that was added by an IP. Then, the section is completely unsourced. Although I am assuming good faith here, could it be that this is a substantial copy of text from somewhere else (most likely a print since a quick Google research came up with no results)?
In any case, the section could really use some copy-editing and sourcing, so if someone with more time on his/her hands likes to do some creative writing, feel free. --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 09:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Christ, I'm glad I don't edit those articles. I like how Arsenal get a massive paragraph whereas Birmingham City get two lines. A tad unbalanced, no? The section reads like it has been lifted from a daily rag. No encyclopaedic value whatsoever. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 09:35, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- User:The does has been bold and removed the section (for now, because I have a somewhat strange feeling that it will get re-inserted). However, the "creative writing" part of the original post is still intact and highly endorsed, if done right.^^ --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 09:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- To be fair, the two lines Blues got was two lines more than quite a few of the clubs got ;-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- And quite right too... We deserve at least two lines' worth of credit for ruining Arsenal's season ;-) cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- It's a travesty what happened, denying them of their first major title in six years. My heart bleeds for their supporters. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 10:34, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- And quite right too... We deserve at least two lines' worth of credit for ruining Arsenal's season ;-) cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:30, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Getting back on topic, at least in a somehow related way – coincidentally, a formal proposal for inclusion of a season summary section in league season articles has been made at the talk page of the league season MoS. Participation in the discussion or just sharing your opinions would be gladly welcomed. --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 12:09, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- In here are twenty reasons not to have a club by club review.--EchetusXe 19:01, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- The section does not intend to have a club-by-club review of the season, but rather a general overview of notable events of the season which were influential in, for example, determining the champions or the relegated teams. Examples for these types of information would be the run of unbeaten matches for Barcelona after their 5–0 win over Real Madrid ,or the detrimental string of results put together by Eintracht Frankfurt which saw them drop from 7th at the half-way mark to 17th at the end of the season. --Soccer-holicI hear voices in my head... 19:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- What a pity. I was enjoying reading about "Tottenham Hotspurs" and Liverpool's 18 Premier League titles. :-) --Jameboy (talk) 23:17, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- In here are twenty reasons not to have a club by club review.--EchetusXe 19:01, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
2011 Copa América teams problemo...?
Greetings all,
If you've been keeping up with international football news, Japan has withdrawn from the 2011 Copa América for a number of reasons. With the withdrawal, they were removed from the Participating Teams section of the article and their spots in Group A. But I'm not certain on if Japan should be removed and replaced from the "Draw" section since they were officially participating in the competition when the draw took place. At least that why I think any mention of Japan should stay in that section, but there are bound to be other editor (mainly IP addresses) who would remove Japan from the draw section and replace with their replacement (likely Costa Rica). Any ideas on how to handle this before any back-and-forth editing ensues? Thanks. Digirami (talk) 10:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- I agree they were placed in a pot for the draw. I have added them back in to draw section with a section note. --ClubOranjeT 11:24, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
A little while back a lot of extra detail (unreferenced) was added into this article from the main Newcastle article. Some of it does not really comprise records and statistics as such i.e. the European section simply lists all their European matches. I've seen other clubs with specific articles relating to their European campaigns, so perhaps the text (suitably sourced) should go to a new page? This records/stats page was already light on sources, and it may be other elements are not really appropriate for the page? I'd appreciate any thoughts. Eldumpo (talk) 15:04, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Apologies for dumping the extra detail there from the article. I was just tidying the article for its recent lift to GA and it seemed a shame to erase the table completely with the amount of work that someone must've put into it. I dumped it into the records and statistics page for lack of a better place to put it, but I agree a Newcastle United F.C. in Europe article would be beneficial. Fintan264 (talk) 15:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed, a Newcastle United F.C. in Europe article would be perfect. There is a lot of precedent for similar articles, and Newcastle have a half-decent European pedigree anyway. – PeeJay 15:48, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
As some of you may have noticed, I've been doing a lot of maintenance work on football categories, particularly about English clubs, in the last couple of weeks. While I was looking through the categories, I found this article. Does anyone know if there is any precedent for this, and should we be looking to split the players and the managers into separate list articles? – PeeJay 15:45, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- At first glance, I think they're all players (Keith Alexander played for them before managing them) so it'd probably be safe to just rename it. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 15:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Something like that, if it was well put together, might be appropriate for a club that has never reached beyond the Conference. But Lincoln are notable enough to have separate articles for players and managers.--EchetusXe 18:56, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Rename to List of Lincoln City F.C. players and make it a list of every player to have played in the Football League for them, as per List of Bradford City A.F.C. players or similar. GiantSnowman 12:30, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Something like that, if it was well put together, might be appropriate for a club that has never reached beyond the Conference. But Lincoln are notable enough to have separate articles for players and managers.--EchetusXe 18:56, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
Club ranking
What is the notability for a list of official club ranking? CONMEBOL recently published their club ranking. I'm not sure what official use it has besides a ranking... but is it worth enough to merit an article? Digirami (talk) 23:25, 17 May 2011 (UTC)
- Its probably used to seed clubs in continental competitions and I think it is worthy of its own article. For example, the UEFA one : UEFA coefficient#Club coefficient. I know CAF has one too on Wikipedia.TonyStarks (talk) 07:29, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Transfer lists
Hi, Can someone who sorts out categories (either manually or via a bot) check the articles in Category:English football transfers and Category:English football transfer lists to check that the categories on each article are consistent e.g. all have Category: [Year] in England etc. I have been sorting out the English football transfers articles back to 2002-03 when the windows were introduced, so that we have two articles for each season (summer and winter). In Category:English football transfer lists, I want the summer articles to sort under "S" and the winter ones to be under "W" but I need someone to correct the categories for the articles that sort under "L" (by, on the articles, putting for example Category:English football transfer lists|Summer 2009.
- I have now completed List of English football transfers winter 2002–03, using the modern format, by adding all the player transfers listed on the BBC website. Can someone please copyedit the list - I know there are a few redlinks for foreign clubs and some of the players need to be disambiguated. Thanks. 03md 18:28, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Anyone interested in attempting to clean up the other lists? 03md 22:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
"Save"
A copyeditor has expressed ignorance of what it means when a goalkeeper makes a "save" and requested a wikilink, which is reasonable. We don't appear to have an article about the term... is it sufficiently notable? Do we have a list of terminology article? --Dweller (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- We don't have a list of terminology at present (Football Terminology redirects to the main association football article]]). I think something along the lines of Glossary of association football terms (this is the naming style used by most other sports) would be a very useful article. BigDom 13:48, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Agree, I'm surprised that it hasn't already been created. GiantSnowman 13:50, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've also felt for a long time that such an article should exist (and would probably be a good place to merge many of the stubby articles we do have on terms like first team, game in hand, two-legged tie, etc. In the meantime, though, what about simply adding a link to Wiktionary, which has an entry for "save" which specifically mentions this usage......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:53, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Agree, I'm surprised that it hasn't already been created. GiantSnowman 13:50, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Thought of the same yesterday, with "bar" (as in "hit the bar"). I think Chris' is a good approach - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
There's a longstanding cricket equivalent... Glossary of cricket terms. I can't be sure, but I don't think it always had that name. --Dweller (talk) 14:40, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Problem with wikt links is that it's down to the reader to make their own mind up what particular variant of a word is specific to the context. I'd advocate a glossary of terms for association football. Definitely. It would have to include nutmeg as well... The Rambling Man (talk) 14:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
A Google search produces three websites which could be used as a basis for such an article:
- World Cup 2010 – Glossary of Football Words and Expressions [7]
- Football Glossary – Understanding Basic Football Terms [8]
- Glossary of Football Terms and Phrases (England Football Online) [9] (very much a "work in progress")
Between them they have most things covered. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 15:55, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- The last time I can see this was discussed here was in February 2009 – see the archive. -- Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 15:59, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Think you probably meant Soccer Glossary [10] rather than the second one... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:06, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well spotted - bl##dy American "Football". Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 16:12, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
I'm going to "create" the article shortly, perhaps we need to start thinking about pages that now should be merged into it and those which can standalone and be referenced.... All help gratefully received. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:11, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Count me in TRM, quite a lot of Category:Association football terminology can be merged in IMO. Take Pelé runaround move for example, do we need an article on this? Woody (talk) 16:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- I doubt it. What would be useful would be a quick turnaround on merge requests here. I'll start the framework of the glossary up and then hopefully we can quickly assess here what can be in-merged from mainspace and what should still standalone with a brief summary in the list. I suggest we "volunteer" based on starting letters so we don't hit too many edit conflicts. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:08, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, and it would be ideal if every entry in the glossary had an inline reference...! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:20, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
Anybody subscribe to PlayerHistory?
And if so can you please check the stats for Regilio Seedorf? Thanks, GiantSnowman 19:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- if somebody has playerhistory there is a need also at italian wikipedia.. Thanks! 93.56.43.17 (talk) 18:41, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Greek superleague 2011-12
Hello.I first created the greek superleague 2011-12 page,and i wonder if i could translate it to Greek. —Preceding unsigned comment added by RazorakosRazor (talk • contribs) 19:30, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
OH YEA, OH YEA!! All project members are alerted to this new article which is probably something we should have done a decade ago! Please contribute as much as you can and reference as much as possible. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:15, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- Glad that I contributed something useful. I'll see what I can add. --Dweller (talk) 21:48, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've added foul, free kick, hand-ball and drop-ball - feel free to edit my descriptions. 03md 22:17, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- If ever I've seen something that should one day be developed into a featured list, it's this. Added one entry so far. On the graveyard shift, so will try to get a few more done during the quiet hours. —WFC— 22:19, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- In an effort to build a decent web, I've created Glossary of football terms. Would be grateful for an extra set of eyes on it, to check for any glossaries I've missed, worthwhile redirects I've overlooked etc. —WFC— 22:59, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
- WOW, 208 edits in a day, and nearly 30KB of article. Well done everyone, something to already be genuinely proud of. More to do though, and we should look for more references where possible!! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:03, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Incredible effort. Can't believe how quickly this article has developed. Looks good content as well. 03md 18:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've added a few in with sources. Great work everyone. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 19:54, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- I'll see if I can add some terms from here. Timbouctou (talk) 20:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- I've added a few in with sources. Great work everyone. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 19:54, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Incredible effort. Can't believe how quickly this article has developed. Looks good content as well. 03md 18:06, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- WOW, 208 edits in a day, and nearly 30KB of article. Well done everyone, something to already be genuinely proud of. More to do though, and we should look for more references where possible!! The Rambling Man (talk) 18:03, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- In an effort to build a decent web, I've created Glossary of football terms. Would be grateful for an extra set of eyes on it, to check for any glossaries I've missed, worthwhile redirects I've overlooked etc. —WFC— 22:59, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
All good chaps, the more the better. This is a fantastic example of what a collaborative effort can achieve in next-to-no time. Good work everyone! The Rambling Man (talk) 20:31, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- First time I've ever had to reconfigure my watchlist for a reason other than vandalism. We must be doing something right! —WFC— 01:44, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I must admit I've really enjoyed working on this page - although it's getting more difficult to think of new things to add! JonBroxton (talk) 02:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Still going great guns, well over 60KB in 48 hours, a massively awesome example of what Wikipedia is all about. Now we need input on what could make it a DYK... head to the talk page if you have a hook! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:47, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- when that get a good nivel, maybe now, I guess we should add it to Template:Association football chronology and/or some other football template, and the Portal.--Feroang (talk) 03:23, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
- It may be over 60KB, but I think it's worth pointing out that about 25% of the entries now have nothing whatsoever to do with football terminology. Examples include "armband", "cup competition", "debut", "fan", "league" and other things that are actual words and not football terms; "Kicker", "France Football" and "FourFourTwo" and other magazines/newspapers that are not football terms. And don't even get me started on Telstar and Jabulani. BigDom 09:48, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
- when that get a good nivel, maybe now, I guess we should add it to Template:Association football chronology and/or some other football template, and the Portal.--Feroang (talk) 03:23, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
- Still going great guns, well over 60KB in 48 hours, a massively awesome example of what Wikipedia is all about. Now we need input on what could make it a DYK... head to the talk page if you have a hook! The Rambling Man (talk) 17:47, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I must admit I've really enjoyed working on this page - although it's getting more difficult to think of new things to add! JonBroxton (talk) 02:21, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
After edits like this (please see here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=CA_Osasuna&diff=420527235&oldid=419892234) and this (here http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pedro_Rodr%C3%ADguez_Ledesma&diff=421312195&oldid=420174307), and several warnings, you'd think this "user" would have been dealt with already.
He allowed for several REAL players to stay at CA Osasuna, guess he does not know there is no salary cap in Spanish football, he could have gone the "extra mile". Almost funny, ALMOST... - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 00:21, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Don't see the problem. He vandalised for a few days at the end of March, got up to a final warning, did 2 more silly edits to prove he could, and hasn't edited since. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:09, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
User:Jolicnikola
I don't know what do about this guy. User:Jolicnikola is a contributor who mostly edits details about barely notable Croatian clubs. I've prodded a few of his creations recently so he might have a problem with me. In any case he created Ozren Nedoklan (a former manager of Hajduk Split) on 13 May with stuff I had prepared earlier in my sandbox here on 11 May. I've put links to articles talking about his career and times in there and was meaning to write the article yesterday and maybe nominate it for DYK - only to find that Jolicnikola beat me to it. I wouldn't mind it if he had actually done something to write he article but he simply pasted the contents of my sandbox to mainspace. I've left a comment at his talk page (here) but he does not seem to have a habit of responding to messages. Now this is not a big deal with Nedoklan and I intend to expand the article anyway, but surely there must be some way to stop this nonsense before he starts taking other stuff from my sandbox and putting it out there before it is ready for publishing. Is there some policy which can be applied here? Timbouctou (talk) 08:50, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't really know. This attitude is not really polite, for sure, but nobody owns any article on wikipedia per Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. However, he should have answer to you per Wikipedia:Etiquette. Cheers.--Latouffedisco (talk) 09:22, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Player nicknames
I've been having trouble with an anonymous user who keeps insisting on adding a nickname for Hugo Rodallega. I'm fairly convinced it isn't sufficiently notable anyway, but are any player nicknames notable enough to be included in articles? J Mo 101 (talk) 10:07, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Well, you couldn't write an article on Paul Gascoigne without using the word "Gazza"....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:01, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)Sometimes yes, generally no. To be a notable inclusion it would need to be reliably sourced and widespread use per per José Mourinho,Pelé and René Higuita, not just a pet name a few fans use on blogs and forums. In this case it doesn't even appear to be a nickname per se, merely an alternative phonetic --ClubOranjeT 11:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Do reliable sources exist to verify the information...? GiantSnowman 13:55, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- (ec)Sometimes yes, generally no. To be a notable inclusion it would need to be reliably sourced and widespread use per per José Mourinho,Pelé and René Higuita, not just a pet name a few fans use on blogs and forums. In this case it doesn't even appear to be a nickname per se, merely an alternative phonetic --ClubOranjeT 11:11, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Financial commentary on clubs by financial year
Following on from David Conn's piece in the Guardian earlier, is there much scope for an article as part of WP:Footy listing clubs income and expenditure for the financial year?TheBigJagielka (talk) 13:34, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Can't imagine that there would be, seems like it'd either be a plain list of figures or just a regurgitation of that article. The article is instead a good source for any details that could be included on an individual club article (or a season article) or the Premier League article (or a season article). Ilikeeatingwaffles (talk) 13:47, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- Agree both that financial information can add value to football articles, but also that it should be largely confined to season articles. To use an example of how finance can be relevant, I'll briefly compare Watford in 2007 to 2011.
- 2007: Revenue of ~£25m, windfall from Ashley Young. As a result we broke our transfer record, spent various other six and seven figure sums for other players, five figure wages. 2011: An unspecified wage ceiling, but certainly a four-figure amount. Revenue of £11m, and even that is distorted by player sales. ~£600k spent on transfer fees in summer 2010; this shortly after a concert (which raised ~£600k) was held explicitly to fund the purchase of players. —WFC— 14:41, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
Which way?
I have just had a friendly exchange of words regarding some of the contents at Cristian Săpunaru, and this one might turn out to be a "tricky one"...
According to UEFA.com, pretty reliable methinks, the player moved to F.C. Porto for €2.5 million (please see here http://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/news/newsid=732315.html), whereas a Romanian website (here http://www.sportm.ro/Fotbal-intern/liga-i/sapunaru-rapid-porto.html) provides a different figure (6 million plus two players).
User:Cyperuspapyrus reasons that UEFA.com source might be incorrect because a Romanian journalist copied it from TRANSFERMARKT.com, less reliable. Where to go from here now folks? - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 14:34, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
AfD - 100%
Can anyone please see that this is summarily deleted? User:Ruizinho18 "added" a few articles, two of which were: the Gondomar S.C. history, written ENTIRELY in Portuguese (have already removed it), and the article on their chairman, which says he "is a former Portuguese player" (!!) and has the club logo, simple.
Attentively - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 23:45, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
- There is no indication of importance for the Álvaro Cerqueira, so it is a potential candidate for speedy deletion. GiantSnowman 00:02, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
free kick spray ¿9-15 FPL?
Hi, in argentina league and other south americans leagues there is a spray use too reforce the laws of the game in free kick situations, I did searh and "aerosol 9-15 Fair Play Limit" (9-15 FPL) sound like his name in spanish http://www.ultimasnoticias.com.uy/hemeroteca/060709/prints/dep12.html , simple nickname as "el aerosol" (english: the spray). Invented by a argentinian sport jornalist Pablo Silva http://edant.clarin.com/diario/2008/05/18/deportes/d-07801.htm , first tested in AFA conpeticions in 2008. and a video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVYoVrECC9Y , serious sorry for too much spanish, I gonna seach information in english, also somebody add it to the new glossary--Feroang (talk) 02:02, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- "¿Sabías que...? "El Clausura 2009 pasará a la historia como el primero en que los árbitros argentinos utilizaron espuma en aerosol para marcar las distancias de la barrera en los tiros libres. ¿El resultado? Se anotaron 28 tantos por dicha vía, ocho más que en el Apertura 2008." argentinian Apertura 2008, first premier league that use the spray http://es.fifa.com/worldfootball/clubfootball/news/newsid=1079144.html...spanish fifa--Feroang (talk) 02:27, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Recent call-up section on nft articles
Unseemly argument and editwarring on Ecuador article about the order of names on the recent call-ups section . Do we have any guideline or opinion? Kevin McE (talk) 06:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- It has always made sense to me to keep the players listed by position, then by name... just as in the Current Squad section. It's consistent and makes finding the names of players easier. It is a list of players after all. Digirami (talk) 06:23, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Does a club which has only existed for six years merit a separate history article.......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:37, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I don't see why not if there are sources to warrant it, and from a quick glance the article seems well-sourced. Eldumpo (talk) 10:36, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Arthur Gaskell
- I'm looking for any information about the player of that name who seems to have played for Bolton Wanderers in the early 20th century, probably the 1910s. I believe this might be the Englishman who coached Građanski Zagreb to glory in the first ever 1923 Yugoslav Football Championship. The club's archives were torched in 1945 and there is virtually no local source offering more details about him. I recently stumbled into this article. It seems that its facts are off concerning the Russia national team (RSSSF has no record of any Englisman coaching or playing for Russia in those days and the 1913 friendly against Norway ended in a 1-1 draw) but it does indicate that there might have been an Arthur Gaskell traveling around central-eastern Europe in those days. If this is the same guy this could be an important breakthrough. So please if there is someone out there with anything on this guy I'd appreciate it. Thanks.
- P.S. This entry in NationalArchives.co.uk describes a picture of Bolton Wanderers squad with Gaskell in it. The date is unknown but in the description it says that Will Settle is in it as Bolton manager - and Settle's tenure at the club was between 1910 and 1915. Maybe this will help. Timbouctou (talk) 09:19, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- An A. Gaskell appears in the Football League Players' Records 1888 to 1939 book by Michael Joyce. Born in Bollington, he was a right half who played for Bolton Wanderers between 1905 and 1909, scoring two goals in 105 league appearances. He also played for Macclesfield Town. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 10:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, the book shows that he played in the Football League for Bolton between 1905/06 and 1909/10. Eldumpo (talk) 10:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- 1910 if he is pictured with Settle... GiantSnowman 11:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- That's fantastic. Thanks a lot! I suppose this alone merits an article? Do you know of any sources which might talk about what he did with his life after he stopped playing? Like some book on former Bolton players perhaps? Timbouctou (talk) 20:07, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- 1910 if he is pictured with Settle... GiantSnowman 11:15, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, the book shows that he played in the Football League for Bolton between 1905/06 and 1909/10. Eldumpo (talk) 10:31, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- An A. Gaskell appears in the Football League Players' Records 1888 to 1939 book by Michael Joyce. Born in Bollington, he was a right half who played for Bolton Wanderers between 1905 and 1909, scoring two goals in 105 league appearances. He also played for Macclesfield Town. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 10:24, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Keeping the faith
I have found this category on several players (for now, i remember seeing it on Jorge Costa and Iñigo Idiakez), and the question comes to mind:
Given the fact that it is not sourced, and also a bit irrelevant in the case of sportspeople, what need do we have for the category "ROMAN CATHOLICS" (with the nationality prefix)? I reckon we don't. - --Vasco Amaral (talk) 11:04, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- If information is unsourced, remove it. Personally I have no real opinion either way on categories such as Category:Portuguese Roman Catholics, but why not take it to WP:CFD if you feel strongly?though I have a feeling it will be kept... GiantSnowman 11:13, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- In terms of the appropriateness of their use on sportspeople, WP:BLPCAT says "Categories regarding religious beliefs and sexual orientation should not be used unless the subject has publicly self-identified with the belief or orientation in question; and the subject's beliefs or sexual orientation are relevant to their notable activities or public life, according to reliable published sources." There are some sportspeople for whom their religion is relevant to their notable activities (Muslims observing Ramadan, Jonathan Edwards not competing on Sundays) or part of their public life, but not many. Unsourced religious or ethnic categories should be removed on sight. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:25, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
My edit war at Videoton FC and following discussion
I would really appreciate a 3th opinion from anyone of you on the edit warring on that article and on the subsequent discussion at Talk:Videoton FC. FkpCascais (talk) 19:01, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
Page moves and disambiguation.
Is this move really necessary? If not then could an administrator please restore it to the way it was. A dab page for two people is not needed, in my opinion. The footballer is undoubtedly more notable so I would have created a hatnote to the mathematician at the top, like I did with György Sándor. What irritates me most is the lack of consideration for what links to an article that an user decides to move without discussion. Numerous articles, including two that are featured, now link to a dab page. Argyle 4 Lifetalk 09:43, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
Proposal for Albania, Montenegro, Macedonia, Latvia, Estonia, and Bosnia and Herzegovina
Proposal for inclusion of some countries' leagues into notability light
Hello all, I am making this point as a continuation of the Albania paragraph here. I believe that Albania's case is the same as Macedonia's and Montenegro's. As far as I know neither is fully professional. I believe we have to change the requirements of WP:NFOOTY, because otherwise we'll have to delete hundreds of Macedonian, Montenegrin, and Albanian players.
As a matter of fact I don't find the notability for players fair at all: the Albanian, Montenegrin, and Macedonian players compete against fully professional players in European Leagues and all of them have professional contracts, but still their respective leagues are not called fully professional, because there is sometimes government intervention. I believe we have to make a change in the notability requirements, because as it is, many players' articles will have to be deleted, and much work will go to waste. Not necessarily the level of soccer in these countries is worse than that of other countries with professional leagues though. Besides, the Albanian league will soon be professional, there are some indications on that, and I can bring the sources, so those articles will have to be written all over again.
Right now one of the best hopes of Albanian soccer players Armando Vajushi, is considered for deletion, but I am sure that his article will have to be written again, as soon as he will start playing in a foreign "professional" league.
I want to know your opinions before I go ahead and make a proposal, which will consist in having NFOOTY accept fully all players of top European Leagues, given the importance of soccer in all European countries. Thank you. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 19:29, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I would also add that Bosnia and Herzegovina, Latvia, and Estonia have the same problem. Still these countries have very developed soccer, whose reflection on wikipedia would be hindered by the wikipolicy of the "professionalism".
- In addition, the wikipolicy of "professionalism" of the league excludes from notability many players that played in the past in times where there was no professionalism required, rather, professionalism was prohibited: that's the case of Eastern Europe, but also in Western Europe. We are excluding athletes that have made the history of the sport. I am by nature an inclusionist, but I am rather interested to listen to other people's opinion. --Doktor Plumbi (talk) 20:28, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- If memory serves, this has been proposed and rejected before. The main issue being leagues of micronations like San Marino or Andorra. Even the average player in the Albanian Superliga does not meet WP:GNG which is the purpose of WP:NSPORT, to evaluate whether a footballer is likely to meet GNG. Likewise, the qualifying rounds for the Europa and Champions Leagues (I assume this is what you mean by European Leagues) have been established as not granting notability for the same reason. The players that compete in them generally do not receive significant coverage, at least not simply for competing in these rounds. As for deleting articles that will probably become notable at some point, this is a non issue. Almost any admin will restore a previously deleted article if you can demonstrate that it has since become notable. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:43, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- Also may I recommend that this discussion take place WT:FOOTY so as ensure wider participation. Sir Sputnik (talk) 20:45, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
To be honest, I think its a shame how England's 5th tier can somehow be more important than Albania's top flight! People spend time and effort creating pages for players in the top leagues of the 'lesser countries' and to have all that taken away makes you wonder why you even bother. I have personally created many pages on Albanian footballers and have seen a lot of them deleted, which is a real shame and a let down from my prespective. And as for Armando Vajushi, I have been in the process of updating his page as well as I can, especially now with a lot of top teams after him, but we're only human and I have AS exams to worry about. Oltianruci (talk) 22:59, 20 May 2011 (UTC)
- I do agree to an extent with that sentiment. Although in fairness to the system, fifth-tier players tend only to get articles if they clearly meet the GNG, and a first team regular in League Two would get equivalent coverage to top division players of many smaller nations. That said, Estonian football is probably below the Welsh football pyramid and the Scottish First and Second Divisions in terms of quality and publicity, so the problem is not entirely one of UK-centrism.
- The black-and-white nature of NFOOTBALL is at least partly to blame. But the real problem is that the primary condition on which that page exists—NSPORTS serving as an advisory suppliment, not a replacement, to the GNG—is not adhered to by 90% of sports editors. Many of the deleted players probably won't meet the GNG, but several will. Nonetheless, players from non-ATHLETE leagues are frequently voted for deletion by English editors on NFOOTBALL grounds regardless of GNG arguments, and more often than not deleted by clueless vote counters. —WFC— 01:35, 21 May 2011 (UTC)
As noted above, the proposal has been made several times before, and rejected each time. We have to draw the boundary somewhere, and the line betwen fully-professional and part-time is easily the clearest we have. Relaxing the rules for some leagues but not others relies solely on opinions of which leagues are notable, rather than facts. I think something to bear in mind is (as I've said before) if football was popular enough in these countries for the non-international players to be notable, then they would probably be able to support a fully professional league (as many less wealthy countries do). Number 57 09:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)