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== [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tenzin Tsering]] and [[WP:ATHLETE]] == |
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I'd appreciate it if some editors familiar with how professional football actually functions, and the application of [[WP:ATHLETE]], could head over to the AfD for this Tibetan footballer to try and find consensus; it is mainly politically motivated at the minute. Cheers, – <span style="font-family:Bradley Hand ITC; font-size:15px;">'''[[User:Toon05|Toon]][[User talk:Toon05|<span style="color:blue"><sup>(talk)</sup></span>]]'''</span> 22:25, 6 January 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:25, 6 January 2009
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AfD on player we deem non notable closed as "Keep"
Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fábio Pereira da Silva (2nd nomination).
Can I now move to mainspace User:Dweller/Tom Adeyemi and User:Dweller/Luke Daley? I think not. But I have cited non trivial mentions of these players from RS in their articles (especially Daley, whose article is more "worked up"). So what makes da Silva special? It can't be that he has a notable brother - notability is not inherited. So, is this result saying that players are not notable until they play, unless they're signed by Manchester United? Either that's the case, or Adeyemi and Daley are notable too. --Dweller (talk) 10:25, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- The keep closure is a shame: there is no consensus to keep the article, a "no consensus" would have been fairer. Then, Wikipedia policy defaults keeping articles with no consensus to delete them, but that is a different thing. --Angelo (talk) 11:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would say that the consensus - as one might expect - is that WP:ATHLETE does not supersede the general notability guideline. Some people thought, even given that, that da Silva was non-notable. But I think there is sufficient consensus that WP:ATHLETE does not supersede WP:N (and indeed, WP:ATHLETE says as much). That said, looking at the Adeyemi and Daley articles, they appear to be sourced entirely from Norwich FC pages - although one of the sources on da Silva was a Man U website, it was one of many, and I almost decided against counting it as an independent source for the purposes of notability. Certainly I do not think the article would have been kept if that was the only source running. I would also suggest that, in practice, there is a bias of size of club, with a club the size of Man U having an easier time getting its reserves in than a club the size of Norwich. It also probably helped that da Silva had captained Brazil's U-17 squad in the U-17 World Cup. Again, while both of these are not sufficient for notability, and there is no consensus that they award notability, they were, I think, factors in why this specific article was kept. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- In common with all major football teams in the UK, Norwich's reserve matches are widely covered in local media. I could easily produce four or five references to Daley or Adeyemi from EDP, Pink 'Un, Evening News etc. Youth football is not notability - a huge number of players who have played U17 for England have never gone on to play a single professional match. --Dweller (talk) 14:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed. My concern is that because "reliable sources" about even the most non-notable footballers are available, that this close may lead to a WP:OTHERSTUFFGOTKEPT issue at AfD, where the bright line of having played professionally (either you have or you haven't) is superseded by arguments about how trivial (or otherwise) coverage about a player is. Black Kite 14:10, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, but not a single media source in the Fabio da Silva article was a Manchester local paper. Which, again, helped. As for the international issue, I agree there is no consensus that U-17 experience is in and of itself grounds for notability. But I would say that it certainly helps the cause - particularly when the experience is remarkable, such as captaining the squad or being goal leader from a defensive position. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Re your comments about Manchester United, that's a breach of NPOV and exactly what we should not be doing - notability should be an objective test, irrespective of what club a player is connected to. --Dweller (talk) 14:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think one can objectively say that Manchester United is a more notable club than Norwich. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- As notability is not inherited, that is irrelevant. --Dweller (talk) 15:07, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- It is not irrelevant inasmuch as it follows logically from the statement that Manchester United is a more notable club than Norwich that signing for Manchester United is more notable than signing for Norwich. The problem you're running into here is that, outside the world of this WikiProject, editors generally look at the results of applying policy and ask "Does this pass the sniff test?". The idea that an article with multiple sources to national media means that a reserves player for Norwich is also notable will fail to pass the vast majority of those sniff tests. And if you think the prominence of Fabio da Silva's club did not affect the decision to keep, you're deluding yourself. Not only was the prominence of Man U compared to Norwich part of why Fabio da Silva was the subject of so much press coverage (the novelty of him having an identical twin who also signed being another part), the statement "we should delete an article on a heavily covered player with non-trivial international experience, who is signed for and listed on the first team of one of the biggest clubs in the world" failed to pass a number of editors' sniff tests. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:15, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- That lots of non-expert comments mistakenly applied inherited notability is exactly what I'm concerned about. Their sniff tests should have told them it stank. And I'm surprised you're arguing another fallacy - in terms of being included or not, there is no such thing as more notable or less notable, there is only notable and not notable. --Dweller (talk) 15:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- You seem to be confusing policy literalism with the actual decision processes that govern Wikipedia. Indeed, WP:N does not describe degrees of notability. On the other hand, when people actually make decisions, they keep in mind not only WP:N's term of art use of notability, but also the actual concept of significance and importance. Ignoring the role these concepts play in inclusion decisions leads to making decisions that are likely to be overruled by the community at large. Empirically, as a matter of social fact, consensus will form more easily for inclusion of a Man U player than a similar Norwich player. Given that it is the social fact of consensus that actually governs Wikipedia, not robotic application of policy, this fact is worth contemplating. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- That lots of non-expert comments mistakenly applied inherited notability is exactly what I'm concerned about. Their sniff tests should have told them it stank. And I'm surprised you're arguing another fallacy - in terms of being included or not, there is no such thing as more notable or less notable, there is only notable and not notable. --Dweller (talk) 15:19, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- It is not irrelevant inasmuch as it follows logically from the statement that Manchester United is a more notable club than Norwich that signing for Manchester United is more notable than signing for Norwich. The problem you're running into here is that, outside the world of this WikiProject, editors generally look at the results of applying policy and ask "Does this pass the sniff test?". The idea that an article with multiple sources to national media means that a reserves player for Norwich is also notable will fail to pass the vast majority of those sniff tests. And if you think the prominence of Fabio da Silva's club did not affect the decision to keep, you're deluding yourself. Not only was the prominence of Man U compared to Norwich part of why Fabio da Silva was the subject of so much press coverage (the novelty of him having an identical twin who also signed being another part), the statement "we should delete an article on a heavily covered player with non-trivial international experience, who is signed for and listed on the first team of one of the biggest clubs in the world" failed to pass a number of editors' sniff tests. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:15, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- As notability is not inherited, that is irrelevant. --Dweller (talk) 15:07, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think one can objectively say that Manchester United is a more notable club than Norwich. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:35, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- In common with all major football teams in the UK, Norwich's reserve matches are widely covered in local media. I could easily produce four or five references to Daley or Adeyemi from EDP, Pink 'Un, Evening News etc. Youth football is not notability - a huge number of players who have played U17 for England have never gone on to play a single professional match. --Dweller (talk) 14:09, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would say that the consensus - as one might expect - is that WP:ATHLETE does not supersede the general notability guideline. Some people thought, even given that, that da Silva was non-notable. But I think there is sufficient consensus that WP:ATHLETE does not supersede WP:N (and indeed, WP:ATHLETE says as much). That said, looking at the Adeyemi and Daley articles, they appear to be sourced entirely from Norwich FC pages - although one of the sources on da Silva was a Man U website, it was one of many, and I almost decided against counting it as an independent source for the purposes of notability. Certainly I do not think the article would have been kept if that was the only source running. I would also suggest that, in practice, there is a bias of size of club, with a club the size of Man U having an easier time getting its reserves in than a club the size of Norwich. It also probably helped that da Silva had captained Brazil's U-17 squad in the U-17 World Cup. Again, while both of these are not sufficient for notability, and there is no consensus that they award notability, they were, I think, factors in why this specific article was kept. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:02, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
The sad fact is that it should have never been at AfD, as the article was illegitimately re-created by Phil following two DRVs which were both closed as endorse deletion. No consensus to delete should have been a no consensus to restore. Perhaps the improper procedure is worth looking into. пﮟოьεԻ 57 14:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have to stick up for Phil here. Why are you lot so adamant that Fabio's article should be deleted, exactly? Just because he doesn't meet wp:athlete? Lots of people don't meet wp:athlete. Henry Kissinger, say. Presumably no one's going to nominate Kissinger for deletion on those grounds. Fabio's article looks fine to me. He's notable despite failing wp:athlete. Flowerparty☀ 14:37, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's a pretty spurious and unhelpful argument, as WP:ATHLETE pretty obviously only applies to articles on sportspeople, not famous politicians. It's equivalent to pointing out that Barack Obama fails WP:BAND because he's never had a hit single -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly. Obama is notable, so we shouldn't delete his article on the grounds that he fails wp:band. Fabio is notable, so we shouldn't delete his article on the grounds of failing wp:athlete. Flowerparty☀ 14:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- So gaming the system to get the result you want is fine? пﮟოьεԻ 57 14:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I gamed the system exactly as much as was necessary to actually have a discussion of the question of notability that was not based on a core of topic editors shutting down discussion while screeching about how the matter was settled and there would be no dissent. I was content with either of two results - the article being kept, or an actual discussion of it. Repeated wheel-warring to delete the article and fast-closes of discussions - both flagrantly contravening policy - pushed me into applying more pressure on the situation. But the issue, frankly, was the conduct on the part of several editors, which was designed to protect the decisions of this project from outside scrutiny. Particularly galling was being wheel warred against saying "Take it to DRV" only to have the DRV speedy-closed as an invalid re-raising of an already decided issue. When more calmly knocking and asking if we could maybe reconsider this specific decision was rebuffed, I resorted to blowing the door open. I would suggest, however, that I was not the primary problem there. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:58, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- So gaming the system to get the result you want is fine? пﮟოьεԻ 57 14:47, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly. Obama is notable, so we shouldn't delete his article on the grounds that he fails wp:band. Fabio is notable, so we shouldn't delete his article on the grounds of failing wp:athlete. Flowerparty☀ 14:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I appreciate it. Much of why I created a new version of the article after the speedy close of the DRV was precisely because of the determination to railroad the discussion on a bright line reading of WP:ATHLETE that was actively hostile to the specific nuance of the situation. Especially since WP:ATHLETE explicitly says it does not supersede WP:N, the failure to look at WP:N at all, and indeed the refusal to allow DRV to do so led me to force the issue. All of this was aggravated by the fact that I came to the subject as a reader, that this is outside my usual editing areas, and that I was gobsmacked by the degree to which the prospect of my asking questions and challenging past decisions was viewed with active hostility.
- That's a pretty spurious and unhelpful argument, as WP:ATHLETE pretty obviously only applies to articles on sportspeople, not famous politicians. It's equivalent to pointing out that Barack Obama fails WP:BAND because he's never had a hit single -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- To my lack of surprise, the actual policy won out over a single WikiProject's somewhat myopic reading of the policy. And, to my further lack of surprise, the particulars of this case - a player who was the subject of unusual media attention (far moreso than, say, Ben Amos, who has made a first team appearance), who signed for as big a club as one can sign for, and who has significant (if not notability-establishing on its own) international experience was sufficient to establish notability.
- I would respectfully and humbly suggest that this project take this incident not as an example of malfeasance and poor decision-making, but as a cautionary tale about the myopia that develops from spending extended amounts of time in one topic area collaborating with the same people. Automatic decision making is a poor process, and leads to errors that, when wider attention is brought to them, are likely to be rebuked. Projects that have persisted with such approaches tend to be the subjects of more stinging rebukes. The decision to keep the Fabio da Silva article is not an overturning or a shift of policy away from WP:ATHLETE. What it is, however, is a rebuke to the insularity that leads to an inability to see the difference between Fabio da Silva and a reserves player for a side battling relegation in the Championship - a difference that, I assure you, is transparently clear to most of those who do not spend the bulk of their editing time inside the bubble. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- For someone who's been spouting off about anti-intellectualism, it's quite rich of you to try and tell experts in the field that they are being short-sighted. I would say that this project consists of a group of editors who really know what they're talking about when it comes to football, and that they are far better placed than the mainstream community to know when a footballer really becomes notable or not; there are numerous examples of footballers who have played for England U17s and had a squad number at a Premier League club, only to disappear into the wastes of non-League without playing a match. I can't name any, because they're not notable, but they do occasionally feature in "Whatever happened to..." articles in FourFourTwo and the like. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you viewed my comments about anti-intellectualism as being a call for experts in a topic to have special editorial authority in that topic, you did not read my comments closely at all, since what I was upset about was the exclusion of peer-reviewed analysis, not editorial authority. And I would also suggest that if you think that the credibility granted by academic peer review is in any way equivalent to the credibility you gain via your dedication to Ipswich Town or whatever club you support, you're so completely off the reservation that the search party no longer has any hope of finding you. Regardless, I have no doubt of the quality, dedication, and competence of the editors heavily involved in football articles. The articles are mostly very good. But familiarity breeds insularity and, subsequently, myopic understandings of topics. When that myopia is combined with an attempt to shut down outside scrutiny, it becomes harmful. That is what the project got smacked down for here, and I hope the project will learn from the experience rather than developing a bunker mentality that will worsen the problem. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Several editors here (including myself) are contributors to off-wiki sources that are deemed to be the amongst the best sources for football-related research (e.g. the RSSSF), so please don't try to insult my intelligence with put-downs regarding which clubs I may or may not support. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- A statistics compiling project extending out of a Usenet group really doesn't meaningfully compare to peer-review either. And this ignores the fact that my point in that discussion was not a call for experts to have special editorial powers. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:24, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Several editors here (including myself) are contributors to off-wiki sources that are deemed to be the amongst the best sources for football-related research (e.g. the RSSSF), so please don't try to insult my intelligence with put-downs regarding which clubs I may or may not support. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you viewed my comments about anti-intellectualism as being a call for experts in a topic to have special editorial authority in that topic, you did not read my comments closely at all, since what I was upset about was the exclusion of peer-reviewed analysis, not editorial authority. And I would also suggest that if you think that the credibility granted by academic peer review is in any way equivalent to the credibility you gain via your dedication to Ipswich Town or whatever club you support, you're so completely off the reservation that the search party no longer has any hope of finding you. Regardless, I have no doubt of the quality, dedication, and competence of the editors heavily involved in football articles. The articles are mostly very good. But familiarity breeds insularity and, subsequently, myopic understandings of topics. When that myopia is combined with an attempt to shut down outside scrutiny, it becomes harmful. That is what the project got smacked down for here, and I hope the project will learn from the experience rather than developing a bunker mentality that will worsen the problem. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- For someone who's been spouting off about anti-intellectualism, it's quite rich of you to try and tell experts in the field that they are being short-sighted. I would say that this project consists of a group of editors who really know what they're talking about when it comes to football, and that they are far better placed than the mainstream community to know when a footballer really becomes notable or not; there are numerous examples of footballers who have played for England U17s and had a squad number at a Premier League club, only to disappear into the wastes of non-League without playing a match. I can't name any, because they're not notable, but they do occasionally feature in "Whatever happened to..." articles in FourFourTwo and the like. пﮟოьεԻ 57 15:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would respectfully and humbly suggest that this project take this incident not as an example of malfeasance and poor decision-making, but as a cautionary tale about the myopia that develops from spending extended amounts of time in one topic area collaborating with the same people. Automatic decision making is a poor process, and leads to errors that, when wider attention is brought to them, are likely to be rebuked. Projects that have persisted with such approaches tend to be the subjects of more stinging rebukes. The decision to keep the Fabio da Silva article is not an overturning or a shift of policy away from WP:ATHLETE. What it is, however, is a rebuke to the insularity that leads to an inability to see the difference between Fabio da Silva and a reserves player for a side battling relegation in the Championship - a difference that, I assure you, is transparently clear to most of those who do not spend the bulk of their editing time inside the bubble. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Football experts surely know better than average users what makes a footballer notable, aren't they? Don't try to minimize the efforts produced by this WikiProject, which is casually one of the biggest in the whole Wikipedia, and also respect their users. Footballers should be deemed notable because of their footballing efforts at first, likewise musicians, politicians and writers. It makes no sense to deem a footballer as being notable because he barely makes the news, with sources regarding him hardly covering the subject in deep and significant detail, and most of sources existing just because of the team he is contracted with (not the team he plays for, because he has never actually played for Man Utd's first team). Would he be notable if he was contracted with Wigan Athletic instead than Manchester United? I think no. And I think he is not notable in any case. As said earlier, we're between two pushes, the one being more inclusionist (especially supported by major team fans who also happened to create articles about team physios, I know this by personal experience), the other being more deletionist (supported by users who cannot accept having articles for each professionally contracted footballer). A single AFD case does not change the widely-confirmed consensus for having only players who actually managed to play a competitive game. --Angelo (talk) 15:56, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Of course it doesn't. This AfD should manifestly not be taken as a challenge to WP:ATHLETE. But I do think it is a lesson about the problems of applying guidelines robotically and without larger reference. Now, I'm willing to accept arguments that da Silva wasn't notable. I think there is a debate to be had on the coverage he had. But I think the argument "failed WP:ATHLETE, nothing else matters," was roundly rejected here, and that the attitude that led to the AfD of shutting down attempts to think through the issue more thoroughly was rebuked. The project is a good one - the football articles on WP are largely good, and WP:ATHLETE as a guideline gets it right far, far more often than it gets it wrong. But I think there was a destructive myopia that reared its head here. And I think rather than deciding that this is a wrong result that should be ignored or grudgingly accepted, figuring out what can be learned from the rejection of the deletion argument in this case is a valuable pursuit. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
This really isn't worth staging a drama over. The guy will probably come on as a 92nd minute sub on boxing day and hey presto, he meets wp:athlete and everyone's happy. (The idea that playing a couple of minutes of professional football can flip a person's status from Non-Notable to Notable! is of course absurd, but that is the dogma being advanced by a number of people here.) And this is largely irrelevant, since the references already listed in Fabio's article clearly establish notability, but can I propose a thought experiment here (and for similar cases). Can anyone think of any circumstances under which this guy would not meet wp:athlete at some point in the future? It's possible that he will never play a first team game for Manchester Utd or for any other club. Given the amount of press coverage he's already got, however, I'd think anything that could prevent him from achieving wp:athlete-sanctioned notability would be so catastrophic as to warrant a good deal more coverage. Phil is a voice of reason here, and I'd recommend those disagreeing with him to think carefully about his arguments before trying to shoot him down in flames as an impostor. Flowerparty☀ 16:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
Moving forward
This subsection is not for discussing the AfD, or how the article got there, but what, if anything, the result means moving forward and what, if anything, the WikiProject should do in response
<ec with Flowerparty>Best solution would be for Fergie to pick the bloke on Saturday, which would end the debate. If he broke his leg in eight places tomorrow and quietly disappeared, never having played for United or any other club in a notable match, we're left with an awkward situation here.
Some questions:
- Do we reconsider our well-established notability criteria?
- Do we challenge the AfD?
- Do we ignore this article's existence? ie not respond to the AfD decision in any way Clarified by --Dweller (talk) 16:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd suggest that there are special circumstances for option 3. We've all wasted enough time on this already. This chap is one of a pair of twins, signed simultaneously. That's kind of curious and enough to spark a little more media interest. Yes, his brother is the better player and he probably enjoyed an uplift because of that, as well as the inherited notability from MUFC. But there's enough unusual stuff here for it not to need to be seen as a precedent. --Dweller (talk) 16:37, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Great minds, eh? Flowerparty☀ 16:41, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- ...and fools.--ClubOranjeTalk 19:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would hope the intention of this is not the personal attack it initially appears to be... Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:55, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
I would suggest the following:
- Unclear. You should note that WP:ATHLETE is part of a larger guideline that explicitly says that WP:N also needs to be considered. Inasmuch as your notability criteria do not currently do so, yes, you should reconsider them.
- God I hope not. I mean, you can, but I think at this point you'd run into procedural walls.
- I'd hope not. You guys are probably the best possible maintainers of the article, and I'd hope you'd maintain it well.
But I think the precedent here is that there are exceptional cases that resist automatic notability guidelines. The precedent is not that the general guideline is wrong - it's that ignoring the specifics (MUFC, the existence of the twin brother, the international work) is a mistake. The general guideline gives you a quick answer. But it does not finish the discussion. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:48, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- For clarity, by option 3, I didn't mean ignore it completely, but just not respond to the AfD decision in any way. The article'll need maintenance if it stays. --Dweller (talk) 16:55, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ah. In that case, I would say that allowing the result to stand is probably wise. I would guess, at this point, that a DRV would be closed with a result along the lines of "Oh God, not again." But I could be wrong. There could be interest in the procedural matters. But I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that there's a new perspective to be had. Phil Sandifer (talk) 17:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well exactly - the last DRV confirmed the deletion, which would suggest that there is indeed no new perspective. I'm really concerned about WP:SLIPPERYSLOPE here, and the best thing that could happen is, as someone said above, that he stumbles onto the pitch for 30 seconds in an actual game so this can be neatly swept under the carpet. Black Kite 19:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ah. In that case, I would say that allowing the result to stand is probably wise. I would guess, at this point, that a DRV would be closed with a result along the lines of "Oh God, not again." But I could be wrong. There could be interest in the procedural matters. But I think you'd be hard pressed to argue that there's a new perspective to be had. Phil Sandifer (talk) 17:00, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I voted delete in the AfD, but I think this article was unusually well-sourced and far superior to any of the typical "permastub" articles created for players that fail WP:ATHLETE. This project gets accused of allowing too many "permastub" articles under WP:ATHLETE, but this is unlikely to be one of those. We should continue to try to purge the many new articles that fail WP:ATHLETE and contain only a sentence (and maybe an skeletal infobox). I don't view this AfD as having any precedential value in keeping those "permastubs" except when they are extremely well-sourced and deal with a player that has a very high profile. The unfortunate thing is WP:N is much more subjective than WP:ATHLETE, and discussions about which sources (and how many) satisfy WP:N are typically long and painful (like this one) - we should not give up on WP:ATHLETE. Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 19:54, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well said, Jogurney. I would go as far as suggesting footballers should meet both WP:N and WP:ATHLETE if they are only notable for being a footballer, as in the case of Fabio. Peanut4 (talk) 22:17, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- That would require a substantial change to WP:BIO, as it would affect numerous parts of that guideline. Phil Sandifer (talk) 00:54, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would say just ignore it, AfDs should not be used as a precedent. There are other non-notable footballers where the football guidelines were overridden by pile on votes from fans (or Australians in the case of Dean Bouzanis). I agree with Jogorney that we need to spend more time as a community dealing with crap like Juan Carlos García, Kelvin Castillo, Juan Obelar (more) and the hundreds of other useless footy permastubs that are created every week. A sourced but non-notable footballers seems like a minor issue compared to the thousands of pathetic unsourced one line articles that assert no notability, that make WP:FOOTY look like a joke with no minimum standard for inclusion at all. King of the North East 22:58, 16 December 2008 (UTC)
What does this AfD change? Not a lot, AfD is not case law. All parties probably agree that the player is on the fringes of notability, even if they disagree as to quite where that line lies. Playing in a youth international alone does not guarantee notability; examples abound of such players that never made it into the pro ranks. Being on the books at Manchester United does not guarantee notability; even some of the "Class of 92" disappeared into obscurity. I maintain that even stepping across the whitewash doesn't guarantee it, the coverage resulting from, say, a single injury time sub appearance rarely meets the description of sources that "address the subject directly in detail". But a variety of the above can sometimes result in an AfD keep. One line permastubs will continue to be given short shrift, debates will continue over longer articles, some of which will be kept. In the meantime, lets hope Fabio Pereira da Silva doesn't rupture his knee ligaments in training. Oldelpaso (talk) 22:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I feel that I must clarify my close. Like someone said in the other section, WP:ATHLETE does not supersede WP:BIO (stated on my talk page here). This was the reason I believed the arguments to "keep" the article were valid. Besides this, the discussion had an even amount of editors supporting deletion and keeping the article. Closing the discussion, I could not ignore the fact that there was no consensus to delete the article. As such, I do not believe the closure should establish a precedent, and each deletion discussion should be decided on a case-by-case basis, taking every notability policy subsection into consideration (for example an artist who plays soccer may fail WP:ATHLETE but not WP:MUSIC even though the article was written mainly about their sports career--and of course the article would need to be refocused). Thanks, Malinaccier (talk) 01:32, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Yes but you closed it as a keep, if there was an even split surely it should of been an no consensus closure, which would have avoided this discussion, added to the fact the article was re-created by an admin despite it failing 2 deletion reviews ...
as for the point about WP:ATHLETE and WP:MUSIC, we are talking about footballers in this project, so WP:MUSIC is irrelevant to the discussion Skitzo (talk) 10:12, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at WP:BAND (the notability criterion) for musicians, it says:
A musician or ensemble is notable if it meets any one of the following criteria:
- It has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the musician/ensemble itself and reliable.
- Has had a charted hit on any national music chart.
- Has had a record certified gold or higher in at least one country.
- etc etc
Wouldn't the easiest thing to do be to change WP:ATHLETE to read:
A sportsperson is notable if he/she meets any one of the following criteria:
- He/she has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent from the sportsperson itself and reliable.
- Has played in a fully professional league
- Has played at the highest amateur level
or something like that....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:25, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- Clause 3 would definitely need clarification (i.e. "in sports where there are no professional leagues anywhere"), otherwise it opens the door to Conference/top flight in Andorra players. пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:33, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- I realise that, I was just being lazy with my typing, as my real point was the addition of clause 1. I believe the current wording actually says "People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships." -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think this is needed. WP:BAND is an independent guideline, but WP:ATHLETE is part of WP:BIO, which already specifies that the general notability guide is also a route to notability. The addition would thus be redundant. Phil Sandifer (talk) 15:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- I realise that, I was just being lazy with my typing, as my real point was the addition of clause 1. I believe the current wording actually says "People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport, usually considered to mean the Olympic Games or World Championships." -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:42, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Judge each case on its merits and don't always be so desperate to delete stuff? Beve (talk) 00:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- The requirement for a person to have played fully pro football could be problematic in countries that have or have had semi-pro or amateur national leagues.Hack (talk) 02:24, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
meaning of "Football ground"
Football ground currently redirects to Association football pitch, but I understand the term to mean the whole stadium, not just the pitch, albeit that this is probably colloquial and technically inaccurate. I'd be interested to hear what other people think about this. My own point of view means that I am unable to objectively determine what the primary meaning of "football ground" should be. Not sure if it should be a disambiguation page, if the redirect should be altered or if it should stay as it is. Thanks. --Jameboy (talk) 22:16, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm fairly sure "football ground" is used to refer to the stadium as a whole; at least, I've never heard it used to refer to only the pitch. I think that "football ground" can be used to refer to a location where football is played in front of spectators, regardless of the spectator capacity, whereas a "stadium" must have stands (possibly on all four sides). – PeeJay 22:22, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- The Kassam Stadium doesn't have stands on four sides. Otherwise yeah. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 22:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- If anything it probably ought to redirect to stadium. Peanut4 (talk) 22:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest that it should re-direct to Football stadium, but this is itself a redirect to Soccer-specific stadium. Aaaaaaaagh! Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 22:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'd say that Football stadium needs to direct to a new article Football ground which would be a non-US-centric version of Soccer-specific stadium (which it could mention in a section). If no-one else wants to have a go, I'll give it a try over the Christmas break when I'll have some spare time. Black Kite 22:39, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- I was going to suggest that it should re-direct to Football stadium, but this is itself a redirect to Soccer-specific stadium. Aaaaaaaagh! Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 22:34, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- If anything it probably ought to redirect to stadium. Peanut4 (talk) 22:31, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- The Kassam Stadium doesn't have stands on four sides. Otherwise yeah. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 22:26, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
I'd say that Football ground is the stadium as a whole but you could leave a disambiguation link at the top of the article. Skitzo (talk) 23:08, 15 December 2008 (UTC)
- There's not a lot to discuss here. At some point someone will split football stadium off into its own article, football ground can be re-pointed there and this will close. For now, a hatnote will suffice. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- It definitely means the whole thing not just the pitch. I say redirect football ground to the same place as football stadium. Beve (talk) 00:12, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
The Atlético Madrid article was moved to Atlético de Madrid on 2 December 2008, as a result of an RM request on the article's talk page. There was one support !vote, which was given with no rationale and given by someone who clearly doesn't spend much time editing football-related articles. The RM was not listed for anyone to see, other than people who might have been browsing WP:RM from 27 November to 2 December, which gave most of us bugger all chance of seeing it. I have now reverted the move with the suggestion that, should anyone wish to request the page to be moved again, they list it here at WP:FOOTY. – PeeJay 11:47, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- While I have some sympathy with that point of view - I agree that Atlético Madrid is probably the best title for the article, you're out of order in terms of process. If a move has been made through the accepted channels, any reversion should be made through the proper channels as well. You should not have done what you did, and instead raised it back at WP:RM. - fchd (talk) 12:04, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- Just one !vote in five days for a potentially controversial move regarding one of the major European teams: this should raise some suspect regarding the correctness of the procedure. If the procedure was not properly followed by nominator (as it seems in this case), WP:BOLD obviously applies. --Angelo (talk) 12:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- Proper procedure was followed. While it may be polite to do so, there is no obligation to inform each and every Wiki Project that may be interested in an article. - fchd (talk) 12:16, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- Fair enough, sorry about that. I just don't think that two people are enough to say that a consensus has been established. – PeeJay 12:48, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- Proper procedure was followed. While it may be polite to do so, there is no obligation to inform each and every Wiki Project that may be interested in an article. - fchd (talk) 12:16, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- Just one !vote in five days for a potentially controversial move regarding one of the major European teams: this should raise some suspect regarding the correctness of the procedure. If the procedure was not properly followed by nominator (as it seems in this case), WP:BOLD obviously applies. --Angelo (talk) 12:14, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
If there's an agenda here to make the article more hispanic, the edits I just made to the opening of the Lead (what the club's usually called in English) are likely to be reverted. Lookout please? They could do with some referencing, if anyone's feeling up to it? --Dweller (talk) 12:37, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm happy with the other alternative names, but I'm not sure "Athletico Madrid" should be listed there. In my experience, people who call the club "Athletico Madrid" are simply mispronouncing "Atlético Madrid". – PeeJay 12:44, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- I thought similar, till I Googled and found 51 recent news hits for "Athletico Madrid", including some surprising titles that I thought should know better. It seems an uncomfortable halfway house to me - why not go the whole hog and call them Madrid Athletic (Oldham's wealthy cousins, obviously), but if that's what RS use, that's what RS use... --Dweller (talk) 12:48, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- Example from The Independent. Tsk tsk. Though it seems to be a bad subeditor's mistake - the journo's got it right and the sub has got it wrong in the headline. PA article, so it's an Indy staffer's laxity/ignorance? --Dweller (talk) 12:52, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- Meh. I think I might petition FIFA to mandate that they be referred to as Madrid Athletic F.C. in English. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:48, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- Amazing how the glory and glamour disappears when idiomatic translations are poorly applied: the Phillips Works Team, Eindhoven anyone? Young Boys of Turin? --Dweller (talk) 15:17, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- I dare say we'd get used to it fast enough. What does Civil Service Strollers translate into in Italian? Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:07, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
- Chris, wouldn't the corrent name be "Madrid Athletic Club"? :p On moving it back to without de, is a really dumb thing to do imo, without the de it becomes grammatically incorrect, plus I don't see for example Swedish clubs being treated to the same stripping of "s" as Spanish clubs get stripped of "de", Djurgårdens IF and Helsingborgs IF don't lay on Djurgården IF or Helsingborg IF. I think the spanish clubs should have the same "right", Celta de Vigo Atlético de Madrid, Deportivo de La Coruña Sporting de Gijón Racing de Santander Recreativo de Huelva — chandler — 10:57, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- This is the English language Wikipedia. In English RS, the most common name for the club is Atletico Madrid or Atlético Madrid. Either of those two names is where we should locate the article. The same principle applies for other names used differently in English RS, ie the article about the capital of Austria is at Vienna, with Wien a redirect, regardless of what its inhabitants might call it. --Dweller (talk) 11:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Vienna might be located at Vienna, but FK Austria Wien is not located at FK Austria Vienna, and as I said, the samething with Swedish football clubs IFK Göteborg and Gothenburg, those clubs are allowed the local name, but not Spanish clubs? As Ecemaml wrote in the discussion for the move
- "The usual name of the club is Atlético de Madrid. If there is an English convention against the use of the "de" then it makes no sense to spell the term "Atlético" as in Spanish, with an acute accent. --Ecemaml (talk) 14:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)" — chandler — 13:04, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- FIFA refers to the club as "Atlético Madrid", while UEFA refers to the club simply as "Atlético". There I can see two excellent reasons why the "de" should be left out and the acute accent left in. – PeeJay 13:19, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- UEFA refers to them as Club Atlético de Madrid — chandler — 13:43, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Which they shorten to "Atlético" in the Spanish league table and on the Champions League pages (see here and here). – PeeJay 14:17, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- I know that but they shorten other teams in the tables, which makes little sense, IFK Göteborg are called just Göteborg, even though there exist other teams in Göteborg, for example GAIS there, which UEFA seems to call GAIS Göteborg, which makes "Göteborg AIS Göteborg". Back to Atletico their club page in UEFA.com [1] list the whole name — chandler — 14:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Which they shorten to "Atlético" in the Spanish league table and on the Champions League pages (see here and here). – PeeJay 14:17, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- This is the English language Wikipedia. In English RS, the most common name for the club is Atletico Madrid or Atlético Madrid. Either of those two names is where we should locate the article. The same principle applies for other names used differently in English RS, ie the article about the capital of Austria is at Vienna, with Wien a redirect, regardless of what its inhabitants might call it. --Dweller (talk) 11:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
<-I'm not aware that Austria Wien is known in English popularly as anything else, but I do suggest we move SK Rapid Wien to Rapid Vienna per COMMONNAME. --Dweller (talk) 13:22, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- So move Sporting Clube de Portugal → Sporting Lisbon as well? or at least Sporting Clube Portugal as "de" can not be accepted — chandler — 13:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's just silly, and to be honest, I find this whole discussion to be rather pointy. – PeeJay 13:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- I dont think its disruptive to show a double standard. But it seems some teams are subject to WP:NCCN, but others don't. I just think adding the "de" for Atletico is so uncontroversial, and many other spanish clubs with "de" in the name while the other things are written out use the "de", Celta de Vigo, Racing de Santander etc. I can agree with that if clubs like Real Madrid are on Real Madrid CF you dont need "Real Madrid C de F" but if it was on "Real Madrid Club de Fútbol" (like it is on some other wiki's) it shouldn't be at "Real Madrid Club Fútbol" — chandler — 13:57, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's not disruptive as such, but I feel like you're suggesting these things to prove a point about something. Each article should be treated on its own. Personally, I would say that it should be "Celta Vigo", "Racing Santander", "Deportivo La Coruña", etc., but those aren't the articles being discussed. As for "Real Madrid C.F.", you would never see the O in "of" included in an English acronym, so why should the "de" be included in the middle of the "C.F."? – PeeJay 14:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's why I said "you don't need "Real Madrid C de F"" but if the whole name had been without acronyms it should be there, as with Atletico (Which it self could be at CA Madrid in reality) — chandler — 14:14, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ah yes, sorry. I misread you. But yes, you are right that the "de" would be necessary if the Real Madrid article was at Real Madrid Club de Fútbol, as it wouldn't be grammatically correct otherwise. It wouldn't make sense for Atletico Madrid to be at C.A. Madrid, though, as the club is most commonly known as "Atlético" or "Atlético Madrid". If the "Atlético" part wasn't in the article's title, it would be quite confusing. – PeeJay 14:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes I'm not proposing a move to CA Madrid, because Atletico is there (im guessing not to comfuse with Real Madrid), but the acronym at least stand in CA Osasuna. But if you agree that it would be grammatically incorrect for "Club Fútbol", can't you agree with Atletico de Madrid? I don't really see a big need to update every article where Atletico is mentioned (Champions league seasons, league seasons etc) to be changed with the de (though it would be nice), but only the article — chandler — 14:25, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ah yes, sorry. I misread you. But yes, you are right that the "de" would be necessary if the Real Madrid article was at Real Madrid Club de Fútbol, as it wouldn't be grammatically correct otherwise. It wouldn't make sense for Atletico Madrid to be at C.A. Madrid, though, as the club is most commonly known as "Atlético" or "Atlético Madrid". If the "Atlético" part wasn't in the article's title, it would be quite confusing. – PeeJay 14:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's why I said "you don't need "Real Madrid C de F"" but if the whole name had been without acronyms it should be there, as with Atletico (Which it self could be at CA Madrid in reality) — chandler — 14:14, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- It's not disruptive as such, but I feel like you're suggesting these things to prove a point about something. Each article should be treated on its own. Personally, I would say that it should be "Celta Vigo", "Racing Santander", "Deportivo La Coruña", etc., but those aren't the articles being discussed. As for "Real Madrid C.F.", you would never see the O in "of" included in an English acronym, so why should the "de" be included in the middle of the "C.F."? – PeeJay 14:12, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- I dont think its disruptive to show a double standard. But it seems some teams are subject to WP:NCCN, but others don't. I just think adding the "de" for Atletico is so uncontroversial, and many other spanish clubs with "de" in the name while the other things are written out use the "de", Celta de Vigo, Racing de Santander etc. I can agree with that if clubs like Real Madrid are on Real Madrid CF you dont need "Real Madrid C de F" but if it was on "Real Madrid Club de Fútbol" (like it is on some other wiki's) it shouldn't be at "Real Madrid Club Fútbol" — chandler — 13:57, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's just silly, and to be honest, I find this whole discussion to be rather pointy. – PeeJay 13:49, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- So move Sporting Clube de Portugal → Sporting Lisbon as well? or at least Sporting Clube Portugal as "de" can not be accepted — chandler — 13:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
This is a page move version of WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS. Because other pages are currently badly named, doesn't mean AM's should be too. It's just that we've not got round to fixing the others yet, possibly because there's more important things to do, like writing decent articles. WP:COMMONNAME is very clear - AM should be named without any "de" in it. --Dweller (talk) 14:39, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- You say its the other who are named badly, I (and I guess some others) say it's only this which is named badly — chandler — 14:42, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- You (and some others) are welcome to discuss an amendment to the existing policy at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions. --Dweller (talk) 14:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- The thing is, if you read WP:NC#Sports teams it makes a case for Atletico de Madrid, or even Club Atletico de Madrid, it has a official website in english [2] where they use their Spanish name, the name exist on UEFA's team site it is recognizable and you can't confuse it with any other team. — chandler — 14:55, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- You (and some others) are welcome to discuss an amendment to the existing policy at Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions. --Dweller (talk) 14:46, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
It's unfortunate that you cite the policy and inadvertently miss out the bit that disproves your point.
I'll paste below what it says in full, with some adapted use of bold from the original to make it clear:
Tests for "no ambiguity": the club's official web site has an English-language section; and that name has been adopted at least by a significant section of the English-language media; and it is recognizable; and it is not easily confused with other clubs' names.
Can we stop now? --Dweller (talk) 15:00, 23 December 2008 (UTC) (NB even the club themselves on their official site use the common English variant: see opening lines to this page about their centenary --Dweller (talk) 15:02, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Just ignore
Tests for "ambiguity": the club's official web site does not have an English-language section; or it is not broadly recognizable; or it is easily confused with other clubs' names.
then? It has a website, it would be easily recognized with, and you can't confuse it with other clubs. This is not changing the spelling of the town from local to english, its just adding the correct grammar. And ignore all the "de" on their english page just because they don't have it on all plages, as you can see, full name used officially in the table in the fixtures they use Atletico de Madrid in the text and so on. And if you read the HEADLINE on the link you posted you'll see Atletico de Madrid — chandler — 15:09, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
<ahem> You're supposed to be arguing it's "not ambiguous", not "ambiguous". if it's ambiguous, we definitely will go with AM. If you want to argue my side of the point, you're welcome. --Dweller (talk) 15:14, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- I am, as you see showing that it FAILS "ambiguous" because it has a English language website, it's recognizable and cant be confused with other clubs. — chandler — 15:16, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
English language RS call the club AM. With no "de". Are we on WP:LAME yet? I'd really rather be spending my time writing an encyclopedia than arguing this point. --Dweller (talk) 15:23, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Time to move forward with the Sporting Lisbon move then? Because if I don't remember incorrectly for that club and a club like Dynamo Kyiv their article names go from their official english website name, overriding English language RS — chandler — 15:29, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- And to disprove "English language RS call the club AM", if this is the right links atlético de madrid 9,644 hits compared to atlético madrid 12,361 hits, that's not a significant segment of the English-language media? Really? — chandler — 15:35, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Spanish hits from page 4 of the "de" results. If anyone else wants to flog this dead horse, they're welcome, but I'm worried about the carcass rotting and irritating my neighbours. --Dweller (talk) 15:45, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'll be expecting you to request moves for all clubs laying on their official English names, but not the most used common name in English media. Or do you think it's only important to make sure Atletico is the only team that has to follow one part of the policy ignoring the other parts. — chandler — 15:51, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
I live about 10 minutes from the stadium and am a fan of the team. In Spanish, the team's name is Atlético de Madrid. JonCatalán(Talk) 02:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
On the wider issue
I see FK Austria Wien were brought up here. They're usually referred to as Austria Vienna in the English press. Isn't it time we went through the European leagues one-by-one and came up with a proper set of consistent standards for which form to use? Right now it appears that there's little consistency even between teams in the same league. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 15:15, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- Policy suggests inconsistency is the way forward :-) It'll be the more famous teams and/or teams from the more famous cities that potentially have Anglicised names and may fall under COMMONNAME. I wish you luck with your quest! --Dweller (talk) 15:20, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
- If we are to go through all the European leagues, we also need to go through the English and Scottish leagues. I might be totally missing something but I don't understand how "Club Atlético de Madrid" drops Club and de to "Atlético Madrid", yet Manchester United F.C., etc. includes the F.C. Maybe it should even be Manchester United Football Club. But if it should be just X F.C., I don't understand how come English and Scottish team names have periods in F.C., yet the likes of FK Austria Wien, is simply FK and not F.K. There seems to be a huge amount of inconsistency across the board. Peanut4 (talk) 02:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree wholeheartedly, and I have been trying to deal with this stuff on the various CONCACAF teams that are involved in international competition (the CONCACAF Champions League) If you take a look at my contribs page, you will see some of the moves I've done recently in an attempt to create some consistency. I figured it was best to start in CONCACAF because, A) I care more about that than anything else and B) these articles are much less controversial. I think that this WP would be very well served by developing a consistent, across the board, multi-language, approach to club article names that would cover things like:
- Formalizing names (nicknames, shortenings, etc.)
- English variants of native languages (Bayern Munich vs. Mayern München, for example)
- Punctuation (F.C. vs. FC and all the variations across languages)
- and all the other different issues that arrise. I think that a lot of the confusion stems from what I perceive to be the uniquely British disregard for getting names right. Whether it be city, country, club, or tournament names, the Brits simply can't be bothered. Look no further than the recent inability by most Brits to properly recite the name of the FIFA Club World Cup. I heard everything from the World Club Cup, World Clubs Cup, Club World Championship, and on and on. Anyway, I would be more than happy to be a part of any discussion relating to the development of a standard, so please feel free to drop me a line at my talk page. -- Grant.Alpaugh 02:59, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- I almost think the easiest thing for consistency is to do what the Spanish wikipedia seem to have started to do if you have a look around at least Spanish and English clubs, no acronyms, full official name in the title. So it's es:Sunderland Association Football Club, es:Newcastle United Football Club, es:Sevilla Fútbol Club, could go on. I think it would be the easiest way to get consistency all over, the only hard parts might be Cyrillic language teams or perhaps Chinese teams, though if you'd go with the English website official name it wouldn't be that hard. Though this wouldn't fix the "problem" in league tables and in text (where they ofc can't be called the full name) , with Team FC or Team F.C. — chandler — 01:45, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree wholeheartedly, and I have been trying to deal with this stuff on the various CONCACAF teams that are involved in international competition (the CONCACAF Champions League) If you take a look at my contribs page, you will see some of the moves I've done recently in an attempt to create some consistency. I figured it was best to start in CONCACAF because, A) I care more about that than anything else and B) these articles are much less controversial. I think that this WP would be very well served by developing a consistent, across the board, multi-language, approach to club article names that would cover things like:
- If we are to go through all the European leagues, we also need to go through the English and Scottish leagues. I might be totally missing something but I don't understand how "Club Atlético de Madrid" drops Club and de to "Atlético Madrid", yet Manchester United F.C., etc. includes the F.C. Maybe it should even be Manchester United Football Club. But if it should be just X F.C., I don't understand how come English and Scottish team names have periods in F.C., yet the likes of FK Austria Wien, is simply FK and not F.K. There seems to be a huge amount of inconsistency across the board. Peanut4 (talk) 02:27, 24 December 2008 (UTC)
- That fails WP:COMMONNAME though, because practically no club is referred to in the vernacular by the fully-expanded name. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:07, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Winter transfers
With the upcoming transfer window, which leagues should be included in the lists of winter transfers? The German list includes all three professional leagues, whereas the English list features only the two highest leagues and the Dutch list includes only the top professional league (Eredivisie).
And which system should we use? Most lists are sorted by club, but Italy, Croatia and Spain are sorted by date. Belgium has a double intersection, listing the transfers both by date and by club. Aecis·(away) talk 23:42, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
- Well for the date v. club listing, I'm all for listing transfers by club. I don't see how it is important to see the exact date. We know its in the winter transfer window, what else do we really need? Hubschrauber729 (talk) 19:05, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- I prefer listing transfers by date, but in a sortable table, like the English lists. That way, the reader can sort by the selling club, the buying club, the date and the fee. Listing by date also makes it easier to compile the list for the editors who create it, as they merely need to add the transfer to the bottom of the list. Therefore, this approach is favourable both to the editors and to the readers. – PeeJay 19:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- The German list is not difficult to edit at all. Just find the club and then put the info in that section. And how is the exact date so important? It adds virtually no value to the article. Hubschrauber729 (talk) 19:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree. Personally, and I'm sure there will be others who feel the same, I find it interesting to know whether a transfer went through as soon as the window opens or on deadline day. Even the dates of transfers in the middle of the window are interesting, as it lets the reader know how much time the selling club had before the end of the window to replace the player they sold. It may not be as useful to know the date as it is to know the fee or the clubs involved, but it certainly has a place in the article. – PeeJay 20:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have to say I agree with PeeJay. The German list isn't very user friendly since the reader can only look through club-by-club rather than sort per buying club, selling club and fee. I don't think date is all that relevant but it can be particularly for last day transfers. Peanut4 (talk) 20:18, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- I disagree. Personally, and I'm sure there will be others who feel the same, I find it interesting to know whether a transfer went through as soon as the window opens or on deadline day. Even the dates of transfers in the middle of the window are interesting, as it lets the reader know how much time the selling club had before the end of the window to replace the player they sold. It may not be as useful to know the date as it is to know the fee or the clubs involved, but it certainly has a place in the article. – PeeJay 20:14, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- The German list is not difficult to edit at all. Just find the club and then put the info in that section. And how is the exact date so important? It adds virtually no value to the article. Hubschrauber729 (talk) 19:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- I prefer listing transfers by date, but in a sortable table, like the English lists. That way, the reader can sort by the selling club, the buying club, the date and the fee. Listing by date also makes it easier to compile the list for the editors who create it, as they merely need to add the transfer to the bottom of the list. Therefore, this approach is favourable both to the editors and to the readers. – PeeJay 19:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Two things:
- 1) Please can an admin protect the article, IP users keep on adding links from the Irish Times which require subscriptions. I have relpaced said links with free equivalents, but my edits are constantly reverted.
- 2) He was born in England and spent his entire pro-career in Ireland, but methinks he may have played as a youth for some English sides - anyone know which ones, if any? Cheers, GiantSnowman 16:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with giving a reference from a site requiring a subscription if said site is a reliable source. I see no need for protection, this should be sorted out on the talk page. Oldelpaso (talk) 19:00, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- But if the same information can be provided in a free link (as GiantSnowman says) then the free version should be used as it makes for easier checking by other editors. At the very least, both should be provided. Qwghlm (talk) 01:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- In response: I have tried discussing it with the IP users, but they call my edits 'vandalism' in edit summaries and don't respond to comments on their talk pages. And as Qwghlm says, free links make verification much simpler. GiantSnowman 17:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Positions by round in Süper Lig 2008-09
I have just PRODded Positions by round in Süper Lig 2008-09 and merged the content into Süper Lig 2008–09. Any PbR tables, if needed at all, should go directly to the respective season article, shouldn't they? --Soccer-holic (talk) 17:03, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have removed the prod and turned the PbR article into a redirect to the season article, in order to comply with the GFDL. – PeeJay 19:37, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
Move of Fredrik Ljungberg and Daniel Alves
Just noticed that a user called Mikemor92 have moved the articles of Fredrik Ljungberg and Daniel Alves to nickname titles, Freddie Ljungberg and Dani Alves, I tried to look for some discussion about it but couldnt find any. And I really don't see a reason for the moves and think they should be reverted. Any thoughts? — chandler — 18:16, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have reverted the moves as they are obviously contentious. I will suggest to the user that they start RM discussions for those two articles. – PeeJay 18:40, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- They shouldn't be moved – they are not widely used names in the same way that Adrian 'Aidy' Boothroyd or Francesc 'Cesc' Fàbregas are called by their nicknames, but are simply informal shortenings. GiantSnowman 18:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure that they shouldn't be moved. The BBC regularly refers to Ljungberg as "Freddie", and he is also called that by the Sky Sports News anchors. Seems a bit more 50-50 about Alves, but he does wear "Dani Alves" on his shirt. – PeeJay 18:53, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- On Ljungberg, I've never understood why he's not been called Fredrik (is it a usual name or hard to pronounce in the UK?), for what I can remember he's never been referenced as "Freddie" in Sweden (and yes I understand its English to go by), or "official" player listings by UEFA on the Euro's or the Champions League — chandler — 19:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I made a little Mistake on Alves but for Freddie Ljungberg, according to the Seattle Sounders FC roster, this is why I changed his page. – Michael (talk) 21:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I've only ever heard Ljungberg referred to as Freddie Ljungberg. But I reckon Alves should be Daniel Alves. Peanut4 (talk) 21:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah that's what I meant, but as PeeJay said earlier, the back of Alves's shirt says Dani Alves. As for Ljungberg, the title of his page should've remained as edited. "Freddie Ljungberg". – Michael (talk) 22:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's a difference between Brazilian players who have "artist names", Swedish players don't have that, Freddie is just a nickname. Just a to compare Henrik Larsson is very often, almost always referred to as "Henke Larsson" in Swedish media, but his article on the sv wiki is Henrik Larsson, because it's just a nickname, similar to Freddie. — chandler — 22:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- The fact that a name is a nickname rather than the name actually printed on the player's birth certificate is irrelevant, we go by the name the player is most commonly known by. We don't have articles called Edward Sheringham, Robert Charlton, Anthony Cascarino, Alexander Ferguson, Steven Sidwell, Timothy Cahill, etc etc etc. I obviously can't speak for how Larsson is referred to in Sweden, but on a worldwide scale, as far as I can see, Henrik is the name he is known by -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:53, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I understand Larsson is known as Henrik all over the world, but I just mean that in Sweden he is probably called by his nickname at least as often as Ljungberg is called by his worldwide, and he and other Swedish players are the same, all the ones you took up are from English language countries, where it might be more common to use nicknames as the "real" name. Of the first names you gave Alexander is the only common name here, and I can bet 90+% are always called Alex most of the time, though I don't think any Swedish Alexander players are on "Alex"... I just think it comes down to regional differences in using nicknames — chandler — 18:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would have thought that on en.wikipedia.org, it's the most common name for the player in the English-speaking world that should be used, not necessarily their real name or what's used in their home country? Beve (talk) 19:02, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'd still say it's a bad move to make, google news only gave a 12,800 to 9,370, and there are many English sites, Including UEFA and FIFA use Fredrik. And they use "official" nicknames there for example Teddy Sheringham and Bobby Charlton, so they don't use the full name just because it's the full name. — chandler — 21:27, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I see no convincing reason not to have the nickname redirect to the proper name in either case. matt91486 (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have no problems with having a redirect, but I dont think the article should be moved to the nickname — chandler — 23:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I see no convincing reason not to have the nickname redirect to the proper name in either case. matt91486 (talk) 21:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'd still say it's a bad move to make, google news only gave a 12,800 to 9,370, and there are many English sites, Including UEFA and FIFA use Fredrik. And they use "official" nicknames there for example Teddy Sheringham and Bobby Charlton, so they don't use the full name just because it's the full name. — chandler — 21:27, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I would have thought that on en.wikipedia.org, it's the most common name for the player in the English-speaking world that should be used, not necessarily their real name or what's used in their home country? Beve (talk) 19:02, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I understand Larsson is known as Henrik all over the world, but I just mean that in Sweden he is probably called by his nickname at least as often as Ljungberg is called by his worldwide, and he and other Swedish players are the same, all the ones you took up are from English language countries, where it might be more common to use nicknames as the "real" name. Of the first names you gave Alexander is the only common name here, and I can bet 90+% are always called Alex most of the time, though I don't think any Swedish Alexander players are on "Alex"... I just think it comes down to regional differences in using nicknames — chandler — 18:41, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- The fact that a name is a nickname rather than the name actually printed on the player's birth certificate is irrelevant, we go by the name the player is most commonly known by. We don't have articles called Edward Sheringham, Robert Charlton, Anthony Cascarino, Alexander Ferguson, Steven Sidwell, Timothy Cahill, etc etc etc. I obviously can't speak for how Larsson is referred to in Sweden, but on a worldwide scale, as far as I can see, Henrik is the name he is known by -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:53, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think it's a difference between Brazilian players who have "artist names", Swedish players don't have that, Freddie is just a nickname. Just a to compare Henrik Larsson is very often, almost always referred to as "Henke Larsson" in Swedish media, but his article on the sv wiki is Henrik Larsson, because it's just a nickname, similar to Freddie. — chandler — 22:18, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yeah that's what I meant, but as PeeJay said earlier, the back of Alves's shirt says Dani Alves. As for Ljungberg, the title of his page should've remained as edited. "Freddie Ljungberg". – Michael (talk) 22:04, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I've only ever heard Ljungberg referred to as Freddie Ljungberg. But I reckon Alves should be Daniel Alves. Peanut4 (talk) 21:54, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I made a little Mistake on Alves but for Freddie Ljungberg, according to the Seattle Sounders FC roster, this is why I changed his page. – Michael (talk) 21:33, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- On Ljungberg, I've never understood why he's not been called Fredrik (is it a usual name or hard to pronounce in the UK?), for what I can remember he's never been referenced as "Freddie" in Sweden (and yes I understand its English to go by), or "official" player listings by UEFA on the Euro's or the Champions League — chandler — 19:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure that they shouldn't be moved. The BBC regularly refers to Ljungberg as "Freddie", and he is also called that by the Sky Sports News anchors. Seems a bit more 50-50 about Alves, but he does wear "Dani Alves" on his shirt. – PeeJay 18:53, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- They shouldn't be moved – they are not widely used names in the same way that Adrian 'Aidy' Boothroyd or Francesc 'Cesc' Fàbregas are called by their nicknames, but are simply informal shortenings. GiantSnowman 18:42, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) Which article should not be moved to the nickname? Articles should be placed at the most appropriate place per WP:COMMONNAME just as ChrisTheDude suggests, e.g. Teddy Sheringham, Bobby Charlton, Alex Ferguson, Tony Cascarino, etc. Just as those players who are known by their middle names e.g. Lee Mills not Rowan Mills, etc. Peanut4 (talk) 23:44, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- Fredrik Ljungberg — chandler — 23:55, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, it should be Freddie Ljungberg, go to soundersfc.com and look at the roster, it has his name on there as Freddie, that's why I changed it. – Michael (talk) 14:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see the reason for Sounders to override FIFA and UEFA — chandler — 17:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- What about the many English language news sources that refer to him as Freddie? Would they be enough? – PeeJay 18:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- As I wrote above many (other) English news sources refer to him as Fredrik. — chandler — 20:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- If these are the correct search links: Fredrik 9,370 include BBC, Times Online, New York Times, etc. Freddie 12,800 include BBC, Times Online, Telegraph, etc. That can hardly be as common as for example Sheringham, Charlton, Ferguson and others. — chandler — 20:40, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- Nearly the right search, just needs filtering for English language only. That gives 11,800 for Freddie and 4,780 for Fredrik. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- Do I have to keep mentioning Seattle Sounders FC everytime regarding putting the name down as Freddie Ljungberg, I'd rather change it back to Freddie. – Michael (talk) 19:32, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Nearly the right search, just needs filtering for English language only. That gives 11,800 for Freddie and 4,780 for Fredrik. Oldelpaso (talk) 21:00, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- If these are the correct search links: Fredrik 9,370 include BBC, Times Online, New York Times, etc. Freddie 12,800 include BBC, Times Online, Telegraph, etc. That can hardly be as common as for example Sheringham, Charlton, Ferguson and others. — chandler — 20:40, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- As I wrote above many (other) English news sources refer to him as Fredrik. — chandler — 20:31, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- What about the many English language news sources that refer to him as Freddie? Would they be enough? – PeeJay 18:43, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see the reason for Sounders to override FIFA and UEFA — chandler — 17:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, it should be Freddie Ljungberg, go to soundersfc.com and look at the roster, it has his name on there as Freddie, that's why I changed it. – Michael (talk) 14:11, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
- [outdent] Freddie is by far his most commonly used name in English, therefore the article should be at Freddie Ljungberg, per WP:COMMONNAME. – Toon(talk) 19:38, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- FIFA and UEFA always have him as Fredrik because Freddie is just a nickname. — chandler — 20:55, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I similar case I can see is Rafael Benitez, often called Rafa. But when it comes to official places, such as FIFA's match reports, he's always referred to as Rafael. He shouldn't be moved either — chandler — 01:35, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Aww, come on folks. This is ridiculous. Has anyone noticed that Ljundberg's first name isn't flipping Fredrik in the first place? He's referred to almost exclusively as Freddie in the English press (I'm entirely unimpressed by what FIFA, UEFA or his mother calls him), and is currently signed under that name, so that's where the article is going. Rock-solid policy, as indicated by the exquisitely put together list Peanut4 provided. I've moved the article back per WP:COMMONNAME. Please let's not have a lame edit war over something with such an obvious right answer. If other articles have issues (Alves is fine with "Daniel", again by the simple BBC test) then let's discuss them separately. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- His name isn't Fredrik? Are you freaking kidding me... And why would you be unimpressed by what FIFA says. We even let "them" decide were the article for the sport in suppose to be located. — chandler — 11:23, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- As a participant in the association football naming saga, I know full well how we got to that title, and it wasn't settled on a flat "this is what FIFA calls it" call. Ljundberg goes by his middle name officially, but "officially" counts for very little - in common parlance, and indeed on his shirt according to the discussion above, he goes by "Freddie". So it's no different from Robert Charlton. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:28, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- From what I remember FIFA calling it association football was a pretty important argument. And just because Karl is said before Fredrik, doesn't mean it isn't his "first name", it's very common in Sweden to have a "middle name" before your first name, I have it myself for example. And I see a big difference in that players like Bobby Charlton and Teddy Sheringham actually are called Bobby and Teddy on match reports from the World Cup and competitions alike, Ljungberg is not. — chandler — 11:34, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- As a participant in the association football naming saga, I know full well how we got to that title, and it wasn't settled on a flat "this is what FIFA calls it" call. Ljundberg goes by his middle name officially, but "officially" counts for very little - in common parlance, and indeed on his shirt according to the discussion above, he goes by "Freddie". So it's no different from Robert Charlton. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:28, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- What people are called in match reports does not matter. Have a read of WP:COMMONNAME. Seriously. It's already been shown that in English sources "Freddie" is the most commonly-used name. It's unambiguous. That is literally all there is to say on the subject. Furthermore, there looks to be broad support for the move in the discussion above. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- So you're proposing moving every player to their informal nicknames? Josep Guardiola, for one. — chandler — 11:51, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- What people are called in match reports does not matter. Have a read of WP:COMMONNAME. Seriously. It's already been shown that in English sources "Freddie" is the most commonly-used name. It's unambiguous. That is literally all there is to say on the subject. Furthermore, there looks to be broad support for the move in the discussion above. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 11:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm proposing following policy on one article. You can argue the rest individually if you want. What you should not be doing is edit warring in the face of apparent consensus - I've just had to fish a comment out of the Ljundberg talk redirect, which means the page move will now require administrative action, which is a huge pain in the ass. Whether a title is "informal" or not is an utter irrelevance, because our naming conventions don't take that into account. If you disagree with that policy then feel free to argue about it on the policy talk page. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- So lets just pick out at one article and not care about following policy on others. I'm seriously wondering if there would be other players not having their article on the name used by FIFA, with exceptions for players who have disambiguating titles — chandler — 12:15, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm proposing following policy on one article. You can argue the rest individually if you want. What you should not be doing is edit warring in the face of apparent consensus - I've just had to fish a comment out of the Ljundberg talk redirect, which means the page move will now require administrative action, which is a huge pain in the ass. Whether a title is "informal" or not is an utter irrelevance, because our naming conventions don't take that into account. If you disagree with that policy then feel free to argue about it on the policy talk page. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- If you want to make a bigger issue of it then so be it, but that's not a reason to put a page move which only you and GiantSnowman seem to disagree with on hold for now. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:23, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Page move requested
What a gigantic pain for something which shouldn't require two minutes' worth of discussion. Talk:Fredrik Ljungberg#Requested move. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 14:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Can anyone with a copy of Michael Joyce's Football League Players' Records 1888 - 1939 find out how many appearances Jimmy Murphy made for West Brom and Swindon Town? His Welsh caps/goals would also be useful. Thanks. – PeeJay 19:36, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- West Brom 1929–1938, 204 apps 0 goals
- Swindon Town 1938, 4 apps 0 goals
- Wales, 15 caps, doesn't mention goals
- From Joyce's book p.192. Should mention that Joyce gives date of birth as 8 August 1910, which isn't what the Jimmy Murphy (footballer) article says. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 21:06, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Cheers for that, mate. I don't suppose the book gives the years of Murphy's Wales caps, does it? – PeeJay 22:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- His first cap was in 1933. Last in 1938. He didn't score any goals. Peanut4 (talk) 22:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Ta muchly. Very helpful. – PeeJay 22:31, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- His first cap was in 1933. Last in 1938. He didn't score any goals. Peanut4 (talk) 22:30, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
- Cheers for that, mate. I don't suppose the book gives the years of Murphy's Wales caps, does it? – PeeJay 22:24, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Book request
Would anyone happen to have access to a copy of Red and Raw: A Post-War History of Manchester United v Liverpool? I'm looking to expand Liverpool F.C. and Manchester United F.C. rivalry, and a printed source might be quite helpful. – PeeJay 22:46, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
Turkish Leagues
Does anyone know the which leauges in Turkey are fully professional? We all know the Süper Lig is fully pro, but I am not sure if the TFF First League is fully pro as well. Hubschrauber729 (talk) 21:04, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
- I only have anecdotal evidence that it is fully professional, but here goes. The league has a sponsorship deal with Bank Asya (see here: [3]) and almost all of the clubs have stadia with capacity of 10,000 or more - Boluspor has the smallest stadium with 8,000 capacity according to the league's website (at same link above). I don't read/understand Turkish so I can't find attendance figures for the matches. There are semi-pro leagues with sponsorship deals and attendances in the low thousands, but Turkey is a large nation with a strong footballing tradition (some of the clubs at this level include Samsunspor and Altay S.K. which have played in UEFA competitions in the past). Is there anyone who reads Turkish that can check the league's website for more clues about it's status. The TFF website says the league is professional (and these clubs players are listed as professional), but that's also true of the third tier (which is much less likely to be fully professional). Jogurney (talk) 21:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Intercontinental Cup/FIFA Club World Cup
There's a bit of a discussion over at Talk:Intercontinental Cup and FIFA Club World Cup statistics about whether or not the Intercontinental Cup and the FIFA Club World Cup should be treated as one competition by combining their stats. User:Gethomas3 seems to believe that the two competitions are effectively the same thing, despite the fact that FIFA only records the history of the Club World Cup from 2000 onwards. The user also believes that statistics for the European Cup and the UEFA Champions League should be separated, despite the fact that UEFA records the history of the two competitions together all the way back to 1955. Anyway, the discussion is available for you all to see at Talk:Intercontinental Cup and FIFA Club World Cup statistics#Suggested split. Happy commenting! – PeeJay 18:58, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
"Sporting Nationality" of coaches
Since this has turned into a slow edit war on Seattle Sounders FC in regards to the flag to put next to Sigi Schmid's name in the team's infobox I figured I'd bring this up to the football community at large... According to MOS:ICON, when a flag is used it should be the flag for the national squad that they are associated with. So, in Sigi Schmid's case, he was born in Germany, immigrated to the US at an early age, hasn't played for any national squad, but he has been the coach for the US U-20 national team. Would the flag associated with Sigi be the US or German flag? --Bobblehead (rants) 00:20, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- The news posts I read when it was announced he'd manage Seattle have referenced him "German". FIFA have called him German multiple times in news articles. But if you look at match reports they list him as "USA" [4] in the two tournaments I think he's coached in, it's hard, but I would probably have him as USA because of the FIFA reports — chandler — 01:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I know nothing of the man concerned, but if it's that unclear, you could always omit the flag entirely, per MOS:ICON#Inappropriate use: "If the use of flags in a list, table or infobox makes it unclear, ambiguous or controversial, it is better to remove the flags even if that makes the list, table or infobox inconsistent with others of the same type where no problems have arisen." cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Don't get me wrong, totally agree with you, Struway2. I've previously removed the flags from the infobox because they are generally for decorations, but they've always been re-added because "Everyone else is doing it". As far as him being referenced as "German" but listed as "USA", it may be because his citizenship is German, which is different than his sporting nationality. At least, that would be my guess. --Bobblehead (rants) 10:26, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- If everyone else is wrong, then that's a problem for everyone else. Persons with dubious or disputed nationalities don't get flags. That's all there is to it. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 12:27, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Don't get me wrong, totally agree with you, Struway2. I've previously removed the flags from the infobox because they are generally for decorations, but they've always been re-added because "Everyone else is doing it". As far as him being referenced as "German" but listed as "USA", it may be because his citizenship is German, which is different than his sporting nationality. At least, that would be my guess. --Bobblehead (rants) 10:26, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I know nothing of the man concerned, but if it's that unclear, you could always omit the flag entirely, per MOS:ICON#Inappropriate use: "If the use of flags in a list, table or infobox makes it unclear, ambiguous or controversial, it is better to remove the flags even if that makes the list, table or infobox inconsistent with others of the same type where no problems have arisen." cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:55, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Happy New Year Footy Project.
I just got home to find I left my PC on... again! But anyway, Happy new year from London to all. Govvy (talk) 01:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Happy New Year everyone! GiantSnowman 17:32, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
User:NapHit has been editing this page for most of the day. I have asked him why he has removed functionality from the article, to which he replied he was "cleaning up" as it was "messy". I have told him I disagreed with his edits and suggested he open a discussion about them, however, he has chosen not to do so. I'd appreciate it if someone could have a look at what he's doing and render their opinion about it. Madcynic (talk) 16:58, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- The changes look fine to me - the table (1991 onwards) is much clearer to read now. пﮟოьεԻ 57 17:08, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I do agree with removing the FC's and SV's, so long as they're not needed for disambiguation and what's left is a sensible shortening of the club's name; that helps to make it look neater.
- I don't think the number of titles bracket should be removed. The reader might very well want to know that 19xx was when a team won their 10th title or whatever. If it's messy (which it was, a bit) then make it neater, don't take useful information away. The 1991- table is crammed into 80% width at the moment, give it a bit more width and make the number-of-titles bracket normal font size (like the goals scored) and it keeps that functionality without being too cluttered.
- What I really don't see the point of (which isn't one of Naphit's changes} is sorting the top scorer by name when some seasons have joint top scorers, so all you get is sorting by the first-named of the pair. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 18:02, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
Zanzibar national football team
This BBC article confirms that the Zanzibar national football team is playing in the Cecafa Cup - does this mean that they are now an official national team, become affiliated to either CAF or FIFA? GiantSnowman 17:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Zanzibar has played in previous editions of the CECAFA Cup, but I see no evidence that they are now affiliated to CAF or FIFA. Jogurney (talk) 18:00, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Zanzibar does get a place in the main CAF club competitions though, doesn't it? The CAF article shows Zanzibar as a "CAF associate member, but non-FIFA member" - fchd (talk) 18:54, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- If they are an associate member, they have the same status as Guadeloupe or Martinique who can participate in confederation competitions, but not in FIFA competitions. Jogurney (talk) 20:37, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Therefore players in squad lists etc. - like players from Guadeloupe - would be represented by the Zanzibar flag, and not the Tanzanian flag? GiantSnowman 21:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- If they are an associate member, they have the same status as Guadeloupe or Martinique who can participate in confederation competitions, but not in FIFA competitions. Jogurney (talk) 20:37, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. I think the French FA has a policy of not allowing players to represent France once they play for Guadeloupe or Martinique in CONCACAF competitions. However, I thought some players had represented both Zanzibar and Tanzania. That would makes things rather difficult. Jogurney (talk) 02:32, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure Zanzibar can't play in the Africa Cup of Nations.
It seems that there are issues between Football Association of Tanzania and the Zanzibar Football Association as shown by this article from 2002...Hack (talk) 02:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Sort buttons
Is there an issue with the clickable sort buttons in tables? It could be browser-related (I only have Mozilla at present), but I can't sort columns at all. See list of one-club men for an example. - Dudesleeper / Talk 21:36, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've also got firefox, and I can sort the table on that page. Peanut4 (talk) 21:45, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I have Firefox and I can't sort the table. Skitzo (talk) 22:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Version 3.0.5 here. I did take an anxiety pill and try it in IE, and it worked, so unless Peanut has an older version of Mozilla I don't have an answer. - Dudesleeper / Talk 22:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've got 3.0.5 too. How odd. Peanut4 (talk) 22:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Works fine for me with an old version of Firefox (1.0.6) as well. - fchd (talk) 12:56, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've got 3.0.5 too. How odd. Peanut4 (talk) 22:14, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- Version 3.0.5 here. I did take an anxiety pill and try it in IE, and it worked, so unless Peanut has an older version of Mozilla I don't have an answer. - Dudesleeper / Talk 22:05, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I have Firefox and I can't sort the table. Skitzo (talk) 22:03, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
- I reported it at WP:VPT last night and it will be fixed in the next software update. Nanonic (talk) 12:36, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Levi Schwiebbe
Does anyone know if this player is Jewish? - Levis is a Jewish (or at least Biblical) name, and Schwiebbe sounds quite Yiddish to me...GiantSnowman 00:02, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- Does it matter? DeMoN2009 15:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not particularly, it's just that if he is then he can be added to the relevant Jewish footballer categories. GiantSnowman 16:38, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- In an interview with De Weekkrant, he has said that he is a Roman Catholic and that he and his brothers were named after Biblical figures. AFAIK there are currently two Dutch Jewish footballers: Samuel Scheimann and Daniël de Ridder. Aecis·(away) talk 16:47, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Non-league coords
I've noticed that User:Jonathan Winsky has gone through a massive number of non-league club articles and has made the club's home ground in the infobox a link to the ground's coordinates. I'm not sure that this is particularly helpful, but thought I ought to put it up for discussion before doing anything about it. Dancarney (talk) 10:20, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that the infobox is not the place to do it; I have nothing against including the co-ordinates in the article (e.g. Eastwood Town F.C.). пﮟოьεԻ 57 10:37, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see the problem with it myself. I've looked at a few and they seem pretty accurate to me. In the past, I've added a link to a multimap locator of the ground of Bideford A.F.C. in the External Links section, but what User:Jonathan Winsky has done looks more professional to me. - fchd (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- There's a coordinates parameter in {{Infobox Stadium}}, which is where they're supposed to go; they display in the infobox or at the top of the page or both. See St Andrew's (stadium). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- But for most of the clubs involved, there isn't an article for the ground. Therefore do you propose adding that parameter to the football club infobox? - fchd (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry, wasn't thinking... Ignore me. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:21, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- But for most of the clubs involved, there isn't an article for the ground. Therefore do you propose adding that parameter to the football club infobox? - fchd (talk) 10:59, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- There's a coordinates parameter in {{Infobox Stadium}}, which is where they're supposed to go; they display in the infobox or at the top of the page or both. See St Andrew's (stadium). cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see what locating the club - as a metaphysical entity - in space adds, but the ground location, as a physical entity, seems valid. The information appears true and accurate, and as long as he is going through doing all the work what is the problem. Stadiums with their own article have this, but in the absence of a stadium article it seems to me to qualify as useful information enhancing the quality of Wikipedia. I guess the debate comes down to whether it should be placed in the infobox per User:Jonathan Winsky's edits, or at the top of the page per the Eastwood Town F.C. example. St Andrew's (stadium) was not a very good go-by...it has it in both places, as do most other articles I looked at that supply coordinate information. As the information specifically relates to the stadium location rather than the entire article, I would favour linking it as per User:Jonathan Winsky --ClubOranjeTalk 18:46, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- I don't see the problem with it myself. I've looked at a few and they seem pretty accurate to me. In the past, I've added a link to a multimap locator of the ground of Bideford A.F.C. in the External Links section, but what User:Jonathan Winsky has done looks more professional to me. - fchd (talk) 10:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Don't you just hate this time of year?
When every sprog with access to a PC thinks he is a budding journalist and has to be the first to break the news that player X has moved from XYZ F.C. to ABC F.C. Wayne Bridge is a classic example. I'll just go away for a few days and tidy up the crap when the deal is done. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 17:31, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- See what you mean about Bridge. I'd have thought 100+ mostly unconstructive edits in 24 hours was reasonable grounds for requesting protection for a day or two... Good job no-one's interested in who my lot are buying :-) cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:44, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, protect it! Beve (talk) 18:36, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
Naming conventions
I'm sure this has been discussed before, but I've noticed several unsettling naming conventions. surely stating (for example) 'Liverpool', 'Leeds' or 'Milan' when discussing a football club in the opening sections of an article or a table is incorrect. I can see how this would be no problem mid-article once the identities of the clubs are clearly established, but when an article starts (for example) 'the 2005 champions league final was contested between Liverpool and Milan', using simply the name of the town/city, surely this is not right? Liverpool the city was not playing Milan the city, and as many Evertonians will no doubtedly attest, Liverpool F.C is not the only club in Liverpool! I've even seen 'Manchester' as 08 Premier League winners, the implications of which - ie City winning anything - I personally take offence to!
if this has been discussed before, it should be again and sorted, becuase the way many articles read is simply not correct. Jw2035 (talk) 21:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- I see nothing wrong with dropping the "F.C." or "A.C." or whatever when writing a football-related article. Obviously, it is incorrect to just write "Manchester" when referring to Manchester United, but as long as the first instance of a club's name is linked and piped (i.e. Liverpool or Milan), that's fine by me. – PeeJay 21:20, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- The problem with this is although the link is correct, it simply does not read or look right - without the nice yellow box (at least in firefox) that says AC Milan or Liverpool FC when you hover over the link it is not obvious reading which Milan or which aspect of Liverpool is being discussed. this is even more of a problem in tables, and leads to having to click on links just to see which Milan or which manchester an article refers to.
- as given above, as plaintext, or just reading it, statements like 'the 2005 champions league final was contested between Liverpool and Milan' sounds and looks incorrect. surely the convention should be to add the fc suffix/prefix where confusion may arise??Jw2035 (talk) 21:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- Doesn't seem wrong to me. If the other Liverpool club actually used the name of the city in its own name, then I could see where you're coming from, but "Liverpool" and "Everton" are dissimilar enough not to cause a problem. Same goes for "Milan" and "Internazionale". – PeeJay 21:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- No-one is going to confuse Liverpool for Everton, but the absolute novice might not know that Milan means AC Milan and not Inter. Beve (talk) 21:45, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- Doesn't seem wrong to me. If the other Liverpool club actually used the name of the city in its own name, then I could see where you're coming from, but "Liverpool" and "Everton" are dissimilar enough not to cause a problem. Same goes for "Milan" and "Internazionale". – PeeJay 21:41, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- as given above, as plaintext, or just reading it, statements like 'the 2005 champions league final was contested between Liverpool and Milan' sounds and looks incorrect. surely the convention should be to add the fc suffix/prefix where confusion may arise??Jw2035 (talk) 21:38, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
(ec)When talking about football in a football article, there is only one Liverpool and one Milan (No Internazionale is never refered to as Milan) and can't cause confusion. When it comes to cities with two or multiple clubs with the city/same name playing at reasonable high/same level, Manchester, Sheffield, Madrid for name a few, it's ofc important to use the full name, or the common way to distingue them (I heard that American commentators for example called Man Utd "Manchester" during thte Club World Cup). — chandler — 21:50, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
think it's ok in match commentary - liverpool arn't called liverpool fc throughout, and man united are often simply called 'united' by match commentators. but this is only alright since it has been established that the 'manchester' means 'that team in red which is playing' and not 'that city in the north west' or 'that club which play in sky blue'. this is the same in articles - once the distinction has been made (for example in the intro) it should be ok to simply refer to 'united', 'liverpool', 'sheffield', but the distiniction should always be clear. i think even though inter milan are as internatzionale throughout wikipedia, simply putting 'milan' for ac is still confusing to a novice reader? Jw2035 (talk) 22:51, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
This little guy is the subject of rather a large bit of misinformation today. The BBC, UEFA and, I'm sure, numerous others claim that he transferred to Manchester United today, only to be immediately loaned back to Partizan. On the face of it, that would seem to be the case, and editors could be forgiven for editing Adem Ljajić's article in order to reflect that circumstance. However, Manchester United themselves claim that they have "an agreement" with Partizan that Ljajić should remain with them for the remainder of the calendar year of 2009. Again, seems feasible. But what both sets of sources has failed to mention is the FIFA regulation that non-EU players under the age of 18 cannot be transferred to clubs within the EU. Since Adem Ljajić does not turn 18 until September 2009 (after the 2009 summer transfer window has closed), he cannot join Manchester United until January 2010. Bearing that in mind, can someone PLEASE help me keep Adem Ljajić's article in check? Failing that, let's just have a big discussion. – PeeJay 23:53, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- To be fair, I think the Man Utd statement backs up everything you say that he will join in January 2010 and until then isn't a Man Utd player. I'm guessing it's a gentleman's agreement rather than anything else. The key words from Fergie in the statement are, "Tosic joins us immediately, his work permit is through;" I.e. Ljajic doesn't yet have his work permit for the reasons you've given.
- It might be worth putting a note on the talk page explaining the situation now, if you haven't already done so. Peanut4 (talk) 23:58, 2 January 2009 (UTC)
- Done. – PeeJay 00:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree that he shouldn't be listed at transferred to loaned back. I'm guessing there's either a gentleman's agreement, or (if FIFA allows it) a transfer contract that specifies January 2010 and all that. When It comes to his infobox, I'm still not sure what I think would be the best solution. — chandler — 00:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Since the situation is so unclear, I think it would be best to leave the infobox as it is. Putting a note saying "due to join Manchester United on 1 January 2010" might be incorrect, since, as you say, FIFA may not allow even pre-contract agreements. – PeeJay 00:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think what you've done so far is spot on according to the Man Utd statement, which is the best one to believe. I'm guessing all the news sources have overlooked this rule. Peanut4 (talk) 00:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- If you want a third party news source, The Guardian via Reuters seem to have got it right. Peanut4 (talk) 00:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- The Guardian is usually pretty good with stuff like this. Probably my favourite of the British printed media. – PeeJay 00:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think that's why I looked there first. Peanut4 (talk) 00:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I just generally enjoy their coverage. It's usually fairly accurate and exceptionally entertaining. matt91486 (talk) 01:16, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think that's why I looked there first. Peanut4 (talk) 00:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- The Guardian is usually pretty good with stuff like this. Probably my favourite of the British printed media. – PeeJay 00:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- If you want a third party news source, The Guardian via Reuters seem to have got it right. Peanut4 (talk) 00:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, I think leaving
2008– Partizan
is the best choice. Because2008–2010 Partizan 2010– Manchester United
might at first glance look like he's ended his Partizan spell, while2008– Partizan 2010– Manchester United
might look a bit weird. — chandler — 00:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)- 2010– Manchester United will be wrong. Because there is no guarantee he will join in 2010. Anything can happen over the next 12 months. Peanut4 (talk) 00:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think what you've done so far is spot on according to the Man Utd statement, which is the best one to believe. I'm guessing all the news sources have overlooked this rule. Peanut4 (talk) 00:09, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Since the situation is so unclear, I think it would be best to leave the infobox as it is. Putting a note saying "due to join Manchester United on 1 January 2010" might be incorrect, since, as you say, FIFA may not allow even pre-contract agreements. – PeeJay 00:07, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
It is correct in its current form of 2008–2009 Partizan 2009– Manchester United 2009– Partizan (loan)
for the simple reason that simply because he is not registered with the FA does not mean he isn't a Manchester United player. Other teams cannot sign him without the permission of Manchester United and paying the appropriate compensation to Manchester United. Ljajic is on loan to Partizan untill 01/2010. This is the same for players who do not qualify for a work permit and are loaned to other EU clubs. Use some common sence people, he's a Manchester United player who is on loan to Partizan untill Jan 2010. Ck786 (talk) 14:31, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Sourcing webpages that will change
Basically, I want to use YourThurrock as a source in a couple of articles. The website is kind of bloglike and the main page changes, and stories are not archived. How do I source the page as it is now, before it changes and the citations I need are gone? Cheers, --Jimbo[online] 06:40, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Citing sources/Further considerations#Pre-emptive archiving, in short - use WebCite (or another website like that). Nanonic (talk) 08:51, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
League games only in infoboxes
Anyone about once the FA Cup games start might want to keep an eye out for contributions from User:Gobbleswoggler. Last night this user was updating Spurs and Wigan players' infoboxes with FA Cup apps, I left a note on their talk page before 21.30 but they kept on going to the end of the game. Hopefully it was a one-off, but... cheers, Struway2 (talk) 08:41, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- So you're not going to give him an "award for contributions to football" then Struway? :-) --Jameboy (talk) 14:43, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Struway2, if Gubbleswoggler is constantly adding incorrect data you can always add vandal tags on his talk page. Govvy (talk) 22:37, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I know, but I'd rather not start doing that till I'm convinced they're doing it wilfully, rather than just because they haven't quite grasped all the conventions yet. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:05, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- Struway2, if Gubbleswoggler is constantly adding incorrect data you can always add vandal tags on his talk page. Govvy (talk) 22:37, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
This user has been reverting sourced information from most of the Champions League final articles including two which are up for GA nomination. He claims he is doing this because the information is not required and does not fit in with the 2007 article which is a featured article and he claims is a template. PeeJay has also encountered the same problem with this user, I would like to know what the community thinks, and what course of action you recommend, as his actions are jeopardising two GA nominations, one of which is on hold. NapHit (talk) 14:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
now this is a personal attack. doesn't the accused get a say?
the GA nominations in question have failed. they have failed for several reasons, notably the use of pov statements, colloquialisms, rambling 'reactions', 'build-up', 'aftermath', 'route to the final', 'what arsene wenger says', etc... sections, trivia only vaguely connected to the finals and sometimes rambling into topics that have nothing to do with the article in question (which towns are twinned with the finalists for example) and selective POV quotations.
the two above users have made no effort to discuss any changes along these lines (even though I've provided full justification for every edit), instead resorting to accusing me of vandalism, sock puppetry and ruining 'their page' or 'their work' - including a statement from NapHit that he had written (solely) the 2007 final featured article.
if anyone has any opinions on what the format of a champions league final article should look like and contain, please post here. otherwise UEFA Champions League Final 2007, a featured article, is the template to wich I have made any structural edits. i've justified every edit i've made; please feel free to post on my or the article tal page if you disagree with any of them, and i'll be happy to discuss it. Jw2035 (talk) 18:49, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- "The accused"? You're not on trial, you know. As I have just mentioned over at Talk:2008 UEFA Champions League Final, the sections about the build-up to the game, the clubs' routes to the final, etc. are quite valuable to articles such as this, as the article would otherwise have been quite bland and boring, just talking about the match itself. As I recall, there was no mention of Arsene Wenger's opinion in the Reactions section of the article, so you're talking out of your arse on that one. You decimated a half-decent article! – PeeJay 19:39, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- dear, dear, more incivility. you simply added wild trivia and cruft, pooly written. looking at the history, you also reverted anyone who made even the slightest constructive edits. 'coincidences', 'did you know this town was twinned with thing' - i'm sure, makes the article more entertaining but doesnt make it better; in fact, the opposite. Jw2035 (talk) 19:50, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think information like that makes an article worse. matt91486 (talk) 19:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- presented correctly, relevant to the article, useful - no problem. this is not the case Jw2035 (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Nevertheless, I count four people who have now objected to your edits. – PeeJay 20:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- you can count a million. only one has been reverting. refresh yourself with Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. however many you count (sockpuppets?) doesn't change the poor quality aspects of the article. anyway, why should anyone listen to someone so uncivil? Jw2035 (talk) 20:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Why so uncivil? Because you've driven me to it by being so pig-headed. – PeeJay 20:15, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- If you can't keep your temper, perhaps you should stop editing? let others get something constructive done? Jw2035 (talk) 20:17, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- The GA nominations have not failed those are previous ones, your refusal to acknowledge anyone else edits means is unbelievable. NapHit (talk) 20:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- i could say the same about you, you've reverted without any debate which i've repeatedly offered. i stand by my comments above about the articles and your conduct. it is not your article and simply reverting edits because 'it's up for good article' or 'i worked hard on that' is not on. Jw2035 (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I would accept your edits if you were improving the articles but you are not you are removing large tracts of referenced material and are diminishing the quality of these articles, because they don't fit in with your 'template'. I never once referred to owning any article, whereas you have telling me on my talk page to leave certain pages alone. To be honest your behaviour is childish and tiresome, hopefully you will come to your sense and stop defacing articles. NapHit (talk) 20:31, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- unfortunately, you simply dont seem to get it. my problem is not whether it's referenced or not, my problem is that a lot of what was there, sourced or unsourced, was cruft, trivia, went into discussions of too wide a scope, had sections which were too open ended, has multiple pov problems, was written in a colloquial style, etc... '...I worked extremely hard on the two articles you have defaced...'. if that's not a case of this is my article, dont edit it... Jw2035 (talk) 20:42, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I would accept your edits if you were improving the articles but you are not you are removing large tracts of referenced material and are diminishing the quality of these articles, because they don't fit in with your 'template'. I never once referred to owning any article, whereas you have telling me on my talk page to leave certain pages alone. To be honest your behaviour is childish and tiresome, hopefully you will come to your sense and stop defacing articles. NapHit (talk) 20:31, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- i could say the same about you, you've reverted without any debate which i've repeatedly offered. i stand by my comments above about the articles and your conduct. it is not your article and simply reverting edits because 'it's up for good article' or 'i worked hard on that' is not on. Jw2035 (talk) 20:25, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- The GA nominations have not failed those are previous ones, your refusal to acknowledge anyone else edits means is unbelievable. NapHit (talk) 20:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- If you can't keep your temper, perhaps you should stop editing? let others get something constructive done? Jw2035 (talk) 20:17, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Why so uncivil? Because you've driven me to it by being so pig-headed. – PeeJay 20:15, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- you can count a million. only one has been reverting. refresh yourself with Wikipedia:Ownership of articles. however many you count (sockpuppets?) doesn't change the poor quality aspects of the article. anyway, why should anyone listen to someone so uncivil? Jw2035 (talk) 20:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Nevertheless, I count four people who have now objected to your edits. – PeeJay 20:04, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- presented correctly, relevant to the article, useful - no problem. this is not the case Jw2035 (talk) 19:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think information like that makes an article worse. matt91486 (talk) 19:54, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- dear, dear, more incivility. you simply added wild trivia and cruft, pooly written. looking at the history, you also reverted anyone who made even the slightest constructive edits. 'coincidences', 'did you know this town was twinned with thing' - i'm sure, makes the article more entertaining but doesnt make it better; in fact, the opposite. Jw2035 (talk) 19:50, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Please reach a consensus and abide by it. Take it to dispute resolutiuon if needed. Thanks, --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 20:46, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
i see no way of reaching consensus with the above editors by discussion. they seem unprepared to debate any changes to their pet articles. either formal mediation or back down and let the edits stand Jw2035 (talk) 20:50, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Consensus does not mean everyone agrees, it means that the dominant view prevails. If you are in a minority of one, you are not the dominant view. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 20:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I couldn't, and, given the circumstances, probably wouldn't have said it better myself, Malcolm. Furthermore, Jw2035, accusing people of believing that they "own" an article is unlikely to do you any favours. Leave the article as it was, seek a consensus, and then make the changes. It is bad practice to make changes while the consensus is still being formulated. – PeeJay 21:05, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Naming convention for play-off final articles
Happy New Year all. The user Mr Hall of England (talk · contribs) has made a few recent page moves for play-off final articles, without any prior discussion as far as I could see. The page moves were to capitalise the word "final", i.e. 2008 Football League Championship play-off final → 2008 Football League Championship play-off Final, which contradicts this discussion from last year. I can see his point though, as I assume he is striving for consistency with (e.g.) 2008 FA Cup Final and 2008 Football League Cup Final, both of which are capitalised. I'd like to know if other users feel that the previously agreed convention of 2008 Football League Championship play-off final should be retained, or if the capitalisation is necessary? (and if it is, should "play-off" also be capitalised?). If we can agree on a format and put this one to bed, I'll happily do the work to bring all articles into line. Cheers. Jameboy (talk) 15:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with your name, 2008 Football League Championship play-off final. I don't think final is a proper noun. Peanut4 (talk) 23:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- What about 2008 FA Cup Final and 2008 Football League Cup Final in that case? --Jameboy (talk) 20:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- And "2008 UEFA Champions League Final", "2008 UEFA Cup Final", "UEFA Euro 2008 Final" "2008 FIFA Club World Cup Final" and "2006 FIFA World Cup Final"? – PeeJay 20:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- What about 2008 FA Cup Final and 2008 Football League Cup Final in that case? --Jameboy (talk) 20:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Please don't start a sentence; On 01 January 2009 etc.
There is a very bad habit that people tend to do with starting sentences: On dd month year, When reading biographies or club articles with that in it, it looks like very poor grammar. It can kind of look like a list. I hope everyone can avoid doing this. Govvy (talk) 22:33, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it's certainly not bad grammar, but it can look a bit lazy. Then again, when you're creating an encyclopaedia that anyone can contribute to, you sometimes have to put up with people who aren't exactly that great at writing. – PeeJay 22:45, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think Govvy means putting a 0 before the 1 i.e. 01 January rather than 1 January. --Jimbo[online] 00:36, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- I get the impression from this edit immediately prior to this discussion, he's on about the prolific use of "On 1 January 2009,... " etc. Peanut4 (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- It depends if the date is relevant to be honest. On the other side I think a lot of people write "On 1 January 2009," when they want to add something but don't add much else. There's nothing wrong with that, but it may need polishing a little instead. Peanut4 (talk) 23:21, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I sometimes do this (admittedly out of laziness most of the time), maybe a different way to phrase it could be suggested here and then that could become the norm. Prem4eva (talk) 23:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- A replacement isn't what's needed. What we need is for some variation in the wording that people use. – PeeJay 00:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thierry Henry and Steve Bruce have got to FA with barely a date in sight. If people want inspiration, they need look no further than the best examples of Wiki's work. Peanut4 (talk) 00:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with a lot of the above - I call it the "in 1985 no-one died" style of writing, but it simply arises from several people adding one sentence each with little thought for even the paragraph, let alone the article. I guess some people just want to add information and aren't bothered about copyediting. I'm probably guilty of sometimes starting sentences with full dates when they may not be needed, but I do try to vary my writing wherever possible (I at least always try to avoid starting consecutive sentences with "on (date)". On a similar topic, I really don't like those "Timeline"/"Diary of Events" sections that appear in English football season articles, and favour integrating them into prose; there's a discussion at Talk:2007–08 in English football#Diary of the season if anyone would like to comment on this. --Jameboy (talk) 14:40, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thierry Henry and Steve Bruce have got to FA with barely a date in sight. If people want inspiration, they need look no further than the best examples of Wiki's work. Peanut4 (talk) 00:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- A replacement isn't what's needed. What we need is for some variation in the wording that people use. – PeeJay 00:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- I sometimes do this (admittedly out of laziness most of the time), maybe a different way to phrase it could be suggested here and then that could become the norm. Prem4eva (talk) 23:59, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think Govvy means putting a 0 before the 1 i.e. 01 January rather than 1 January. --Jimbo[online] 00:36, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Maps in general
I'm just want to check if there is a consensus for if for example Kosovo is suppose to be included on current maps. And small other things. I ask because yesterday I updated File:European Football Championship appearances.png (plus Hosts, Winners, Best results) per request to include the UEFA countries missing. Now on those I left out Kosovo (and Monaco, Vatican City and some other non-UEFA dependencies). But should Kosovo be represented as a non-UEFA, or non-existing (as if Serbia covers the whole area) until the Kosovo FA have been accepted into FIFA and UEFA? Or are there guidelines on what to do with maps when there are territorial disputes? And should perhaps non-FIFA FA's in internationally recognized countries be included as non-UEFA countries on the map? — chandler — 23:56, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
Berks & Bucks Senior Cup
Hi there, I'm currently working on making a table listing the results from finals of the Berks & Bucks Senior Cup, this is what I've done so far, using [5] as my source and I'm wandering whether other users would consider it to be a reliable source or not? Thanks. Ben O'Bagels (talk) 09:32, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
Could some one help me with the seasons of this club or find some who supports the club who could help me with some infomation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mr Hall of England (talk • contribs) 14:51, 4 January 2009
Infobox Football biography
Now that the new {{Infobox Football biography}} seems to have been completed and agreement reached, what happens now? Are we supposed to be using the new infobox? If so, how do we go about changing the old style ones? And are we going to let WP:FOOTY members know or at least football bio contributors? Peanut4 (talk) 22:18, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think the link you meant is to {{Infobox Football biography 2}}. I'm using it on all new articles, but it would be an impossible task to change the existing articles, unless someone can create a robot to do it, or at least a conversion tool, but as the two templates work quite differently, this may prove impossible. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 22:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- Can we get some documentation added to the new template? All it says it that it's a fork of the old one. It doesn't say how to use the new one. --Jameboy (talk) 22:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
- My view would be that if something ain't broke, don't fix it - basically don't bother wasting time & resources deliberately changing the old infoboxes (and instead only change them if you edit an article) and instead begin to introduce the new infobox in ALL new articles, which would include adding it to the player style guide. GiantSnowman 00:47, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm guessing there's not much change in the doc with the exception of years, clubs, national team etc, in that they're divided instead of with breaks — chandler — 06:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've extended infobox 2 to cope with managers who have had more than ten clubs in their career, such as Horst Buhtz. Madcynic (talk) 17:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- How many of a player's clubs can it cope with? Has it been tested against Steve Claridge or Trevor Benjamin? --Jameboy (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- The template allows for up to 29 clubs, compared to Claridge's 27, so it should work. I'll give it a go sometime, although John Burridge (33 clubs) may be a problem. Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 18:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- How many of a player's clubs can it cope with? Has it been tested against Steve Claridge or Trevor Benjamin? --Jameboy (talk) 18:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- My original concern with this new infobox was precisely this - the increasing number of clubs - and I still don't see what was wrong with using line breaks in the old infobox. GiantSnowman 19:14, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Can we get some documentation added to the new template? All it says it that it's a fork of the old one. It doesn't say how to use the new one. --Jameboy (talk) 22:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
This article survived a past AfD apparently mainly due to the fact that the people contributing to the AfD were under the impression that it was an actual football league involving matches between professional teams and therefore notable. This is not in fact correct though, it was merely a "reward scheme", somewhat akin to the current Fair Play League, whereby teams got points (and ultimately cash) for goals and discipline in their existing Football League games. Is it really notable......? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 10:59, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- It's certainly interesting enough not to be lost entirely. (I like the stipulation that the cash had to be used for stadium improvements: undersoil heating anyone?) As it only ran in the 70-71 season, suggest merging it into The Football League 1970–71 or 1970–71 in English football, either of which could do with a bit of sourced content. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 11:24, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with having this merged into a season article. It's interesting enough to be covered, but doesn't warrant a stand-alone article. Dancarney (talk) 11:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I would also support a merge; perhaps it should be mentioned on both the articles that Struway2 has suggested. Cheers, GiantSnowman 14:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree with having this merged into a season article. It's interesting enough to be covered, but doesn't warrant a stand-alone article. Dancarney (talk) 11:28, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Possible list of over-achievers
I have not engaged much with “soccer” on Wikipedia to date, but I was intrigued by a quiz question recently: “How many players have a Premiership, Champions League, Euro Championship and World Cup medal”? The answer is apparently “one”. It begs the question is there any reason not to pursue a “List of football players with top domestic, European and International honours” or similar? I can only think of three other British based players off-hand, although doubtless there are any number of Germans and Italians. Apologies if this already exists somewhere or there is some policy reason not to. Cheers Ben MacDui 19:02, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not aware of such a list. The problems would be 1) defining the list criteria: there are many possible permuatations of medals won among the competitions you mentioned, let alone other competitions (and what would "top domestic" mean?) and 2) I think sourcing the information would be difficult. Jameboy (talk) 23:42, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Top Domestic is (following the example) the highest league title on a (any) nation's football pyramid. And European should probably be broadened to Continental (nothing forces us to stay in the old continent), methinks. Though with so many competitions floating around we could have some fun time deciding which ones to include. Kaizeler (talk) 01:14, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
There can certainly not be many players who have those four, not even Pelé (who lacks a Copa America) or Maradona (who lacks a Copa America, a Copa Libertadores or Champions League, though have a UEFA Cup). A player that easily comes to mind is Zidane (if it's not about winning your home country's top domestic league), Deschamps, Lizarazu and perhaps some other French from the 98-00 team. — chandler — 03:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Though it might be hard to find sources calling this special achievement this, it could perhaps be included in The Quadruple under a individual section (if it is, a win in any domestic league's top tier, the highest club competition in a confederation, the highest national competition in a confederation and the world cup) — chandler — 03:35, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- OK – I’ll take this as tentative support, and I will bear in mind the sourcing issue. I like the idea of making it ‘Continental’, although I confess to knowing little about South America. The existence of The Quadruple is interesting, but as this is a team rather than individual achievement I’d see it as a “see also”. If the list turns out to be very small at present, there may be a case for a “close but no cigars” section for Maradona, Henry etc. I have a rough draft that I’ll tart up a bit and then post a link here for some initial comments. Ben MacDui 20:06, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Category deletion
I wonder if anyone was aware of this CfD. I am very dissapointed that such a large scale deletion was not listed at the relevant Wikiproject (here) and I would certainly have !voted to listify the information had I been aware of it. The categories were all deleted today despite the fact that two of the comments seemed to verge towards listify which is the same number that !voted outright delete. I think lists of Argentine and Brazilian born footballers to have played for other national teams are certainly worth a list. King of the North East 22:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree, I just found out today - its a joke and needs to be stopped now.--Vintagekits (talk) 22:13, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Also check out this BS!--Vintagekits (talk) 22:19, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I added that in the project del list on the 20th, you had 7 days to vote. Don't know why you call it BS!, Govvy (talk) 22:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Also check out this BS!--Vintagekits (talk) 22:19, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
If you think procedural errors have been made, you can always request a deletion review. Aecis·(away) talk 22:22, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Although, DRV or no DRV, the mass category removal from articles can't be undone. So it's particularly important that CfDs reach as wide an audience as possible. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I just found this; List of Brazilian footballers who have played for another national team. I really think the others should have been listified too, the info will be much harder to listify now the categories have gone. I'll put together a list for the Argentine players if I get time, I certainly don't have time to save the rest. King of the North East 22:30, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Although time-consuming to cross check each player's nationality, these contributions will at least catch all the players who were in the categories in question. Peanut4 (talk) 22:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- As pointed out above, it's quite easy to find the articles that were removed from a category prior to it's being deleted by a bot. Just go to userpage of the bot that did the depopulating/deleting and look at its "user contributions". All of those articles removed from a specific category will be grouped together after the previous category was deleted by the bot and just prior to the category being deleted by the bot. It's all there—nothing's lost forever in WP. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Yes I know this, it took me a good while to retreive the ones I'm interested in, and remove the unneccessary text. They are now stored on one of my userpages in reverse alphabetical order ready to be listified at a future date. The main complaint is that such a large scale deletion was not listed at the relevant Wikiproject in the first place (here) so that regular football contributors could have a say. Most of us are too busy to trawl trough every AfD anf XfD on a regular basis, but would certainly have commented if it had been listed. King of the North East 23:42, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- As pointed out above, it's quite easy to find the articles that were removed from a category prior to it's being deleted by a bot. Just go to userpage of the bot that did the depopulating/deleting and look at its "user contributions". All of those articles removed from a specific category will be grouped together after the previous category was deleted by the bot and just prior to the category being deleted by the bot. It's all there—nothing's lost forever in WP. Good Ol’factory (talk) 23:18, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Although time-consuming to cross check each player's nationality, these contributions will at least catch all the players who were in the categories in question. Peanut4 (talk) 22:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I just found this; List of Brazilian footballers who have played for another national team. I really think the others should have been listified too, the info will be much harder to listify now the categories have gone. I'll put together a list for the Argentine players if I get time, I certainly don't have time to save the rest. King of the North East 22:30, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Although, DRV or no DRV, the mass category removal from articles can't be undone. So it's particularly important that CfDs reach as wide an audience as possible. ArtVandelay13 (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Please note the contrast with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Scottish football players playing abroad where participants in the deletion discussion take the logic that categories exist so why bother with the list. Ben MacDui 20:29, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- I don't understand your logic. Jmorrison230582 (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Middlesbrough spelling query
Hi. Sad single-issue obsessive here, sorry! Is there a reason that Middlesbrough gets so frequently misspelt in football articles as Middlesborough (the latter being in Kentucky)? Sure, it's a common enough mistake and there are usually redirects to get round it but it seems odd that it is so often used. In particular, some editors seem to go to the trouble of getting it partly-right by writing [[Middlesbrough_F.C.|Middlesborough]] which just seems weird. It made me wonder if there is some kind of template/shortcut/whatever that, er, enshrines the wrong spelling, but if there is I can't find it. And {{subst:fc|Middlesbrough}} works like a charm and indeed is used as an example at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Fc so it isn't that ... Yup, it's not the end of the world - I just wondered if there was something obvious that could be checked or changed? If not I wish you good evening and happy editing and will get back in my box. Thanks and best wishes DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 22:23, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
It should be just Middlesbrough, if it does have the extra o that should be removed. Govvy (talk) 22:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. Something I do quite a lot of. :) I was wondering if there is some underlying cause, though ... DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 22:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- I think your answer is in the first seven words of their article: "Middlesbrough Football Club, also known as 'The Boro'". ;-) Madcynic (talk) 22:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm yes! Wouldn't really work calling it The Bro I guess. Ah well, wikipedia search is my friend! Thanks for the replies. DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 22:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
- Scarborough, Farnborough, Loughborough, Peterborough, Middles... Shouldn't have thought there's any other reason than mistakes. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Stevenage.... Govvy (talk) 20:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Scarborough, Farnborough, Loughborough, Peterborough, Middles... Shouldn't have thought there's any other reason than mistakes. Oldelpaso (talk) 16:48, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hmm yes! Wouldn't really work calling it The Bro I guess. Ah well, wikipedia search is my friend! Thanks for the replies. DisillusionedBitterAndKnackered (talk) 22:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Does anyone know in what minute of the game Clayton Blackmore's goal was scored? I've found the time of Barnes' penalty, but Blackmore's can't be found for love nor money. – PeeJay 11:51, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- The report from The Times says it was in first half injury time..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:58, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) According to the Sunday Times match report, in the 44th minute. Though the summary at the top for some reason gives the goal to Hughes, the reading says Blackmore "almost on the stroke of half-time". cheers, Struway2 (talk) 12:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks guys. :) – PeeJay 12:41, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- (Further comment) I can't actually access the link you posted, Chris. It says I need a username and password. Nevertheless, I'll take your word for it. – PeeJay 12:44, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Humblest apologies, this is the link meant to post.... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:00, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Anon
Could an admin possibly check out the edits being made by 89.234.98.243? Have to say, I'm not very interested in dealing with them anymore. Mattythewhite (talk) 16:52, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- He's been blocked for 31 hours by EyeSerene. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:55, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
Whatever happened to The Football League 1889-90??
Why is it a redirect to The Football League 1888–89? --Moloch981 (talk) 21:02, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- I've added a {{db-move}} tag to The Football League 1889–90 so that The Football League 1889-90 can be moved to its correct title. – PeeJay 21:12, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Deleted. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Moved. – PeeJay 21:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
- Deleted. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 21:26, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
I'd appreciate it if some editors familiar with how professional football actually functions, and the application of WP:ATHLETE, could head over to the AfD for this Tibetan footballer to try and find consensus; it is mainly politically motivated at the minute. Cheers, – Toon(talk) 22:25, 6 January 2009 (UTC)