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:[[User:Mar4d|Mar4d]], I found only these two pictures rather then his cricketing days.<nowiki>[[File:Imran Khan.jpg]] and [[File:Konferenz Pakistan und der Westen - Imran Khan.jpg]]</nowiki>. Is this fine? [[User:Fade258|Fade258]] ([[User talk:Fade258|talk]]) 05:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC) |
:[[User:Mar4d|Mar4d]], I found only these two pictures rather then his cricketing days.<nowiki>[[File:Imran Khan.jpg]] and [[File:Konferenz Pakistan und der Westen - Imran Khan.jpg]]</nowiki>. Is this fine? [[User:Fade258|Fade258]] ([[User talk:Fade258|talk]]) 05:38, 5 April 2022 (UTC) |
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:: {{u|Fade258}} Thanks, I'm aware of that. I should have worded it better; what I meant was a photo of Imran Khan from his ''cricketing days''. Preferably one of him playing cricket e.g. batting or bowling, or on the cricket field. Cheers, '''[[User:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">Mar4d</span>]]''' ([[User talk:Mar4d|<span style="color: green;">talk</span>]]) 08:52, 5 April 2022 (UTC) |
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What's going on with NCRIC? The shortcut goes to a section which makes no sense and just talks about umpires. I see someone has deleted it via that village pump shitshow. So they've constructively deleted most of it and left a sentence about an umpire, while claiming CRIN is not a guideline. Nah, it's a pointer toward what might be notable. Sadly, the same can't be said for half the articles created these days which are non-notable rubbish, like the above section. StickyWicket (talk) 21:14, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yep, following an RfC with at least 13 proposals, someone came to the conclusion that any appearance-based criteria is to be removed. Many sections are either completely removed or gutted so that random snippets are left. Spike 'em (talk) 21:30, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Link to the village pump proposal: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Sports_notability. Proposal 3 was concluded to have reached consensus, which is to
eliminate participation-based criteria (except those based on olympic or similar participation).
Natg 19 (talk) 22:51, 8 March 2022 (UTC)
- Link to the village pump proposal: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)/Sports_notability. Proposal 3 was concluded to have reached consensus, which is to
- So they completely remove everything and just leave a snippet about umpires. Now that's what I call constructive... *rolls eyes* StickyWicket (talk) 06:27, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Spike 'em, You're absolutely correct. A Simple Cricket Fan (talk) 09:01, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- An excellent job by the deletionists to get rid of WP:NSPORT by the back door. Well done! Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 12:00, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- If I am not wrong then for notable he/she must played one match at high International level and must have significant coverage on reliable source. Fade258 (talk) 14:08, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Which makes absolutely no sense, because most sportsmen play as part of a team and therefore there is unlikely to be much coverage specifically about them as an individual, outside of their participation in the team(s) matches. And as for playing at "high international level", it would mean that by these criteria the likes of James Hildreth and Jamie Porter aren't notable, when they quite clearly are. Meanwhile, there are hundreds are (auto)biographies of artists, actors and film-makers, whose notability rests entirely on their "participation" (exhibitions in art galleries, characters played in TV dramas and soaps). This decision is a total nonsense. Richard3120 (talk) 15:26, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Richard3120, I have aslo some confusion regarding that new criteria for cricketer. In my opinion, for two articles which you have mentioned above, the new criteria will not be applied. Fade258 (talk) 15:55, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly. What makes Peter Trego (who's scored over 18,000 runs) less notable than Dhiraj Parsana just because the latter played in 2 Test's in the 70's and did nothing. CreativeNorth (talk) 16:03, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Fade258: in fairness, I couldn't be bothered to spend 30 minutes reading the 13 proposals and their different arguments and counter-arguments, so I may be exaggerating and I hope that for cricketers, notability at least extends to first-class cricket. Regardless, the decision to exclude participation as a criterion for any sport, when participation is the entire basis for a career in sport, is ludicrous. Richard3120 (talk) 16:34, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- "I couldn't be bothered to spend 30 minutes reading the 13 proposals" - I think that's a very apt summary of what went on. Instead of just one proposal with a support/oppose choice, it soon went out of control, putting many editors off the whole thing. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 17:22, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Fade258: in fairness, I couldn't be bothered to spend 30 minutes reading the 13 proposals and their different arguments and counter-arguments, so I may be exaggerating and I hope that for cricketers, notability at least extends to first-class cricket. Regardless, the decision to exclude participation as a criterion for any sport, when participation is the entire basis for a career in sport, is ludicrous. Richard3120 (talk) 16:34, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Exactly. What makes Peter Trego (who's scored over 18,000 runs) less notable than Dhiraj Parsana just because the latter played in 2 Test's in the 70's and did nothing. CreativeNorth (talk) 16:03, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Richard3120, I have aslo some confusion regarding that new criteria for cricketer. In my opinion, for two articles which you have mentioned above, the new criteria will not be applied. Fade258 (talk) 15:55, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Which makes absolutely no sense, because most sportsmen play as part of a team and therefore there is unlikely to be much coverage specifically about them as an individual, outside of their participation in the team(s) matches. And as for playing at "high international level", it would mean that by these criteria the likes of James Hildreth and Jamie Porter aren't notable, when they quite clearly are. Meanwhile, there are hundreds are (auto)biographies of artists, actors and film-makers, whose notability rests entirely on their "participation" (exhibitions in art galleries, characters played in TV dramas and soaps). This decision is a total nonsense. Richard3120 (talk) 15:26, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- If I am not wrong then for notable he/she must played one match at high International level and must have significant coverage on reliable source. Fade258 (talk) 14:08, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Absolutely Richard3120, I couldn't agree more with what you have said, it is a total nonsense! And with NCRIC having been deleted (apart from umpires which is odd), it literally means there are no guidelines so I could in theory create an article on myself, a humble former club cricketer and link the one time I got a mention in a local match report for a five-for!!! StickyWicket (talk) 19:03, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Not true; the guidelines are BASIC and GNG (which ultimately had to be met previously anyway). You could also have created that same article about yourself before (and the result would be the same). wjematherplease leave a message... 19:17, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Now we're going to get every man and his dog introducing non-notable cricketers and we have less line of defence because of this. People don't read GNG or even understand it, they tend to understand the first-class/List A/Twenty20 requirement. StickyWicket (talk) 19:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- I don't see why that should be. Anyway, (if necessary) it shouldn't be too difficult to write a placeholder to prevent such things pending formulation of proper replacement criteria. wjematherplease leave a message... 20:00, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Now we're going to get every man and his dog introducing non-notable cricketers and we have less line of defence because of this. People don't read GNG or even understand it, they tend to understand the first-class/List A/Twenty20 requirement. StickyWicket (talk) 19:38, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Not true; the guidelines are BASIC and GNG (which ultimately had to be met previously anyway). You could also have created that same article about yourself before (and the result would be the same). wjematherplease leave a message... 19:17, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- Absolutely Richard3120, I couldn't agree more with what you have said, it is a total nonsense! And with NCRIC having been deleted (apart from umpires which is odd), it literally means there are no guidelines so I could in theory create an article on myself, a humble former club cricketer and link the one time I got a mention in a local match report for a five-for!!! StickyWicket (talk) 19:03, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
Hang on. Does that mean right now there is no guideline against anyone creating articles for random Czech or Botswanan cricketers who played in a T20I because they are internationals since the ICC gave them all T20 status? CreativeNorth (talk) 23:14, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- No, there is a guideline, and it is called WP:SIGCOV. It has worked in preventing spammy articles about corporations. It has worked in preventing spammy articles about all kinds of random nobodies popping up. It will probably work as well here. So unless this is an attempt at some form of scaremongering, it doesn't really make sense. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:02, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- "It shouldn't be too difficult to write a placeholder to prevent such things"... which is exactly what I did at NSPORTS but you reverted my edit??? And yes CreativeNorth, essentially it does mean that right now literally anyone can have an article as we don't have an inclusion criteria to fall back on and use an argument. StickyWicket (talk) 23:21, 9 March 2022 (UTC)
- You restored participation based criteria which is explicitly what the RFC consensus determined to be removed. And no, such articles cannot be created now. The applicable biography guidelines are BASIC and GNG, as they were previously. wjematherplease leave a message... 00:21, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Instead of acting like the world just collapsed (which it didn't), it make be more productive to try to figure out the criticism that has been levelled at overly-broad criteria and try to make them more in line with GNG. Does anybody here dispute the fact that there are many instances of first class (and domestic T20/One-day) players not being notable? I could probably throw up a fair few examples from past AfDs.
- What would make more sense would be A) to write a new guideline which is a good indicator of GNG and probably B) add some suggestions about which kind of sources should or shouldn't be consulted when writing cricket articles (for example, one should probably note that database statistics as can usually be gotten from Cricinfo are not sufficient to justify an article, although, for players who have full profiles written by the staff there - for ex. [1] - that can be used).
- As for point A), "Have played at the international level for a Test-playing nation" would likely be a good, practically-certain indicator (and the number of edge cases would be even lower, if there are any - even 3-game rather-average players from the 1930s have gotten full feature articles - something which probably cannot be said with confidence about all similar examples in first class or other more modern domestic competitions). RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 01:16, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- Comment. Yes, but as a result we now have clearly non-notable articles like Gagandeep Singh (cricketer, born 1991) being created and then when AfD'ed people withdrawing their delete vote because of changes to NSPORT. Far from making it harder to introduce non-notable individuals, it is having the opposite impact. StickyWicket (talk) 20:09, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- @AssociateAffiliate: And? That article, at the moment, looks like it is going to be deleted due to failing GNG. As do plenty of other articles about all sorts of people and organisations, all the friggin time (just look at AfD logs). So, if anything, this proves that GNG does the job just fine. I don't see what the problem is. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:57, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
- @RandomCanadian Earlier, no problem at all. but now following an RfC with at least 13 proposals, somebody came to the conclusion that any appearance-based criteria ought to be removed. Many sections are either entirely vacated or gutted so that random snippets are left. A Simple Cricket Fan (talk) 09:02, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- The solution is to either A) rewrite NSPORTS entirely to do away with the notion of sport-by-sport criteria, and instead provide guidance to editors about which topics are generally and generally not likely to be notable, and which kind of sources should be used and which others should be avoided and so on so forth (a bit like WP:NCORP or WP:NASTRO); [but that's likely an unrealistic expectation] or B) rewrite the criteria so that the issues with them (and yes, there were significant issues with both the criteria themselves and how they are used in practiced) can be resolved. As you can see, I have proposed an alternative here (
"Have played at the international level for a Test-playing nation"
) which would be a more accurate indicator. One could possibly add an explanatory noteCricketers who have played at the highest domestic level, or in the lower levels of international cricket, may have sufficient coverage about them to justify an article, but it should not be assumed to exist without further proof.
RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:22, 15 March 2022 (UTC)- Agree with you A Simple Cricket Fan (talk) 07:54, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Test cricket countries seems okay to me (gets rid of anyone that plays minor T20 International cricket matches). For likely/possibly notable, we have the pretty well refined WP:OFFICIALCRICKET which could be use as an indicator of which players may be notable or not. Joseph2302 (talk) 08:19, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agree with you A Simple Cricket Fan (talk) 07:54, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- The solution is to either A) rewrite NSPORTS entirely to do away with the notion of sport-by-sport criteria, and instead provide guidance to editors about which topics are generally and generally not likely to be notable, and which kind of sources should be used and which others should be avoided and so on so forth (a bit like WP:NCORP or WP:NASTRO); [but that's likely an unrealistic expectation] or B) rewrite the criteria so that the issues with them (and yes, there were significant issues with both the criteria themselves and how they are used in practiced) can be resolved. As you can see, I have proposed an alternative here (
- @RandomCanadian Earlier, no problem at all. but now following an RfC with at least 13 proposals, somebody came to the conclusion that any appearance-based criteria ought to be removed. Many sections are either entirely vacated or gutted so that random snippets are left. A Simple Cricket Fan (talk) 09:02, 15 March 2022 (UTC)
- @AssociateAffiliate: And? That article, at the moment, looks like it is going to be deleted due to failing GNG. As do plenty of other articles about all sorts of people and organisations, all the friggin time (just look at AfD logs). So, if anything, this proves that GNG does the job just fine. I don't see what the problem is. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 21:57, 10 March 2022 (UTC)
Proposal
Based on the above, would:
Proposal
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Significant coverage is likely to exist for a cricket figure if they:
Additionally, cricketers who have played at the highest domestic level, or in the lower levels of international cricket,[a] may have sufficient coverage about them to justify an article, but it should not be assumed to exist without further proof.
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...be an acceptable improvement? If so, that should probably be proposed back at NSPORTS when the current dust storm settles down. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 17:42, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- A technical point, but may want to clarify "Test-playing nation" to "Full Member nation". Makes the category a little more easily-definable, especially for women's teams - West Indies Women, for example, don't play Tests any more (although they are able to), but I'm assuming we're not doubting significant coverage there. The definition can then be easily linked to the relevant section of the ICC members article for anyone who isn't sure which teams fit the criteria. Mpk662 (talk) 18:05, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- The idea is that Test cricket predates the ICC's modern definition by a bit (and those players of the English cricket team in Australia and New Zealand in 1876–77 are generally notable, as one can see...) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:35, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:OFFICIALCRICKET lists tournaments whose players are likely/possibly notable as well as likely not notable. This should be reflected in the text for "additionally" section. Also, this listed isn't exhaustive e.g. there are loads of regional Indian men's cricket tournaments whose players wouldn't be notable. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:53, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- @Joseph2302: Better? I thought the page made it clear by itself that some leagues are not notable, but of course there's no harm in making it clear here. Cheers, RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 15:20, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:OFFICIALCRICKET lists tournaments whose players are likely/possibly notable as well as likely not notable. This should be reflected in the text for "additionally" section. Also, this listed isn't exhaustive e.g. there are loads of regional Indian men's cricket tournaments whose players wouldn't be notable. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:53, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
- The idea is that Test cricket predates the ICC's modern definition by a bit (and those players of the English cricket team in Australia and New Zealand in 1876–77 are generally notable, as one can see...) RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 19:35, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
I think this proposal looks promising and could be a starter for ten at other projects. You could compare with this proposal at WP:FOOTY. I'm guessing you're trying to reduce detail, which might be a good idea, but cricket isn't as simple a game as football. The variations all have top-class competitions.
Something that does occur to me is the overlap between domestic and international where you get fixtures like Queensland v India or Lancashire v Australia. OFFICIALCRICKET doesn't seem to cater for those. Just playing devil's advocate if I may, how would you rate an English player who played in half a dozen or more matches which were all first-class but only against touring teams, MCC and universities, never playing in the county championship (or in any limited overs game)? I think you're going the right way, but there's still maybe a few creases to be ironed out. No Great Shaker (talk) 11:25, 27 March 2022 (UTC)
- How many people will only ever play matches that are domestic team vs international team, and not any other domestic matches? I imagine it would be almost zero. In general, I think this proposal looks good at tightening the guidelines, and having domestic cricket as a maybe list seems sensible and less objectionable than listing them as "likely" or "presumed" notable. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:57, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- What would be the process to actually get this changed on WP:NSPORTS? Because if we don't change the guidelines at some point reasonably soon, then we're likely to end up with no guideline at all (as people keep on removing "participation-based" guidelines, and I cannot imagine it getting any better). Joseph2302 (talk) 15:03, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
Test capitalization
Why do we so often have capped "Test match" (and even "Test Match") in WP cricket articles? I don't see that so much in sources; that is, capping test seems to be "unnecessary" capitalization. Dicklyon (talk) 02:13, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Uh, it absolutely IS the common way of writing "Test" in almost any reliable source you care to mention, in any cricket-playing country: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9]. I agree that "match" should not be capitalised, though. Richard3120 (talk) 02:30, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Definitely it's the most common way, especially in the last 10 years, per these n-grams stats. Why the recent burst of caps popularity, after so many decades of about half capped? But the question is more about whether caps are "necessary", as opposed to "common". It's especially more capped in the specialist cricket sources than in more general sources; do they not see it the same way cricket specialists do? How/why did it get capped in the first place? It's not a proper name, is it? Dicklyon (talk) 06:04, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Hello again, Dicklyon. I once asked the same question here myself. As far as I can see, the British media is pretty much 50/50 between test and Test. The project here have gone for Test, probably because of the specialist sources you mention, like the Wisden Almanack. As for origin, I don't know, and why the word Test anyway for an international match? Good old English eccentricity, I suppose. No Great Shaker (talk) 06:38, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah. I was wondering what might have caused the shift in capping proportion in books, starting about 15 years ago. Could it have been this edit? The article started out with lowercase test. Dicklyon (talk) 06:59, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- My admittedly subjective impression is that throughout the 60-odd years that I've been following the game, the capitalised form has been much the more common in the cricket books and newspaper articles that I've read. JH (talk page) 18:02, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I believe the term "test/Test match" originated in Australia in the 1880s or 1890s, but was soon also adopted in England. I prefer the capitalised form. Any high-standard match could be described as a "test match" in the sense of testing the players, whereas "Test" emphasises that the term has a specific meaning, applying only to international red-ball, non-over-limited matches between two teams that represent countries which are Full Members of the ICC. JH (talk page) 08:58, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Yeah. I was wondering what might have caused the shift in capping proportion in books, starting about 15 years ago. Could it have been this edit? The article started out with lowercase test. Dicklyon (talk) 06:59, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Hello again, Dicklyon. I once asked the same question here myself. As far as I can see, the British media is pretty much 50/50 between test and Test. The project here have gone for Test, probably because of the specialist sources you mention, like the Wisden Almanack. As for origin, I don't know, and why the word Test anyway for an international match? Good old English eccentricity, I suppose. No Great Shaker (talk) 06:38, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Definitely it's the most common way, especially in the last 10 years, per these n-grams stats. Why the recent burst of caps popularity, after so many decades of about half capped? But the question is more about whether caps are "necessary", as opposed to "common". It's especially more capped in the specialist cricket sources than in more general sources; do they not see it the same way cricket specialists do? How/why did it get capped in the first place? It's not a proper name, is it? Dicklyon (talk) 06:04, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Cricket/Style advice has said to use Test as long as I've been editing. The content of that page was moved from the main project page about a year ago, but looking through its history, it's been like this since 2005 Spike 'em (talk) 09:16, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- And there was a prior discussion to formalise this. Spike 'em (talk) 09:50, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- This thread got off on a doubtful premise. Although "necessary" is the general criterion in WP:MOSCAPS, for sports events it seems to be "Specific competition titles and events (or series thereof) are capitalized if they are usually capitalized in independent sources". Thincat (talk) 10:48, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- I guess for the same reason the other two international formats are in caps. IE One Day International, not one day international, etc. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 11:33, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Is it though? Dicklyon (talk) 17:00, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what that graph is trying to show, but the ICC uses capitals on Test, One Day International and Twenty20 International. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- They also cap Full Members, Member Countries, Full Member Teams, and other "specialist" stuff that we would not cap in WP. Dicklyon (talk) 16:56, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Could anyone check newspapers.com to see how common capitalisation was in newspaper reports in the past before the internet? Richard3120 (talk) 17:58, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I've always seen it capitalised and often come across it in lowercase and change it. The ICC and the MCC both say Test, so as the governing body and the custodian of the laws of cricket use a capital, I too think we should use it as our standard. Also, I'm yet to see a copy of Wisden where lowercase is used. StickyWicket (talk) 19:42, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I can see in this article [10] a copy of the Daily Mirror's report on the 1981 Headingley Test, and they use capital letters. So capitalisation certainly isn't a result of either the internet or Wikipedia. I'd thought capitalisation of Test had been around for decades, but I know the mind can play tricks, so I wanted to obtain evidence. Richard3120 (talk) 20:30, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I searched newspapers.com for "test match" in British papers from 1946 to 1970, excluding Radio/TV programme listings, sentence starts, specific matches (and rugby). So, over nine out of ten I manually excluded. Here are the first five I hit.[11][12][13][14][15] Even in general references to this type of cricket I think "test" was always capitalised and "match" was lower case. I got the feeling that for specific matches both words tended to be capitalised, "test" always so. Thincat (talk) 21:54, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I've always seen it capitalised and often come across it in lowercase and change it. The ICC and the MCC both say Test, so as the governing body and the custodian of the laws of cricket use a capital, I too think we should use it as our standard. Also, I'm yet to see a copy of Wisden where lowercase is used. StickyWicket (talk) 19:42, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Could anyone check newspapers.com to see how common capitalisation was in newspaper reports in the past before the internet? Richard3120 (talk) 17:58, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- They also cap Full Members, Member Countries, Full Member Teams, and other "specialist" stuff that we would not cap in WP. Dicklyon (talk) 16:56, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what that graph is trying to show, but the ICC uses capitals on Test, One Day International and Twenty20 International. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 09:22, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Is it though? Dicklyon (talk) 17:00, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
We should at least downcase Test Match to Test match, right? There are nearly a thousand articles with that. Note that Batting average (cricket) has "(First Class, one-day, Test Matches, List A, T20, etc.)" with lowercase "one-day", too. Many of the "Test Match" caps may be OK, though e.g. perhaps in "England–New Zealand Test Match"? (nope) Is that a "specific event" or a description of a recurring event? Dicklyon (talk) 23:58, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, I've always used "Test match", I don't think "match" should be capitalised. StickyWicket (talk) 05:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Looking through my copies of Wisden, it's always wrote as "Test match" and not "Test Match". Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 11:06, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, I've always seen "Test match" in reliable sources. Richard3120 (talk) 13:29, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Looking through my copies of Wisden, it's always wrote as "Test match" and not "Test Match". Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 11:06, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- The style guide says to use "first-class cricket" and "one-day cricket" as general terms, but "One Day International" / ODI. I've edited the batting average segment above to reflect that. Spike 'em (talk) 14:11, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- I tried the search you mentioned, it complained about the result size, but many of them fall into a couple of areas: rugby internationals, which I guess you'd need to take up with the rugby project, and titles of references within cite templates that are using some form of Camel Case. There are also some links to Test Match Special, which is the proper name of a radio program. I'll have a look at AWBing away any occurrences of [[Test cricket|Test Match]] and see if there is much left related to cricket. Spike 'em (talk) 14:21, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
Batsman/Batter change
Given that the laws of cricket have removed instances of the word 'batsman' and replaced it with 'batter', with most major publications (incl. cricinfo) following suit, I'd propose a change in our style guide to shift from 'batsman' as preferred to 'batter' as preferred, as it both complies with the new laws of cricket and also helps contribute to gender equality in the way the sport is presented. Krimzonmania7078 (talk) 12:38, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Discussed on this page a few times before, most recently here; [16]. There was no consensus to adopt that change to the style then, but it could be looked at again. Chances are that most of the participants in that most recent discussion will retain their opinion though --Bcp67 (talk) 14:21, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- For my view, I am fine with changing the style, batsman is a bit of an outlier when you think we use bowler, fielder etc with no regard to gender, but we do need to keep a historical perspective and not necessarily go updating every article to change batsman to batter. Compliance with the terminology of the laws is less of a persuasive argument for me, common usage may well be different - the laws refer to "dangerous and unfair non-pitching deliveries", but we know those as a "beamer", for example. --Bcp67 (talk) 14:29, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- I retain my views from there: use batter for women's cricket articles, but for men's cricket articles, particularly historical biographies, the WP:COMMONNAME is batsman. Changing everything from batsman to batter is a massive WP:RECENTISM. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:31, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- Per Joseph2302, who is spot on with his comment. We shouldn't be calling the likes of Bradman batters when they were known as batsman, to do so would be blatant WP:RECENTISM. StickyWicket (talk) 18:10, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- That isn't really true. They were also known as batters at the time; e.g. "Bradman the batter", "The Batter – Don Bradman", "...the Englishmen, whose batters..." etc. wjematherplease leave a message... 11:16, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Without prejudice to the rest of the discussion, but that last article linked seems to be a humourous piece reporting on cricket using baseball terminology, so the use of "batter" there doesn't really show much (it also uses "base-stealing" and "curve pitchers" which I'm sure we'll agree are not cricketing terms) Spike 'em (talk) 12:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- True, true. Unfortunately, I didn't take any notice of the context – I simply took the first three search results. However, the point still stands, and similar examples can be found whichever country or era you look at, in both newspapers and books. wjematherplease leave a message... 13:26, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Without prejudice to the rest of the discussion, but that last article linked seems to be a humourous piece reporting on cricket using baseball terminology, so the use of "batter" there doesn't really show much (it also uses "base-stealing" and "curve pitchers" which I'm sure we'll agree are not cricketing terms) Spike 'em (talk) 12:54, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- The approach taken by ESPNcricinfo seems sensible. They are not revising previously published articles, but new pieces on their site use batter as an all encompassing term. Obviously, for Wikipedia the situation is slightly different since all articles are effectively live documents rather than fixed. A practical compromise would be to use batter for modern players, and leave things as they are for biographies of historical players, and to do this on an ongoing basis rather than changing things en masse. Richard Nevell (talk) 22:38, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- That isn't really true. They were also known as batters at the time; e.g. "Bradman the batter", "The Batter – Don Bradman", "...the Englishmen, whose batters..." etc. wjematherplease leave a message... 11:16, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Per Joseph2302, who is spot on with his comment. We shouldn't be calling the likes of Bradman batters when they were known as batsman, to do so would be blatant WP:RECENTISM. StickyWicket (talk) 18:10, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
- I retain my views from there: use batter for women's cricket articles, but for men's cricket articles, particularly historical biographies, the WP:COMMONNAME is batsman. Changing everything from batsman to batter is a massive WP:RECENTISM. Joseph2302 (talk) 14:31, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
- For my view, I am fine with changing the style, batsman is a bit of an outlier when you think we use bowler, fielder etc with no regard to gender, but we do need to keep a historical perspective and not necessarily go updating every article to change batsman to batter. Compliance with the terminology of the laws is less of a persuasive argument for me, common usage may well be different - the laws refer to "dangerous and unfair non-pitching deliveries", but we know those as a "beamer", for example. --Bcp67 (talk) 14:29, 29 March 2022 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Template:Cr-IPL
Template:Cr-IPL has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Human (talk) 06:23, 30 March 2022 (UTC)
Domestic team's winners as templates
Do we need to have templates for the winning squads of domestic competitions? It seems like we have templates for the winning squads for every winner of the men's BBL, women's BBL, English (Women's Super League (KSL), RHF Trophy and Charlotte Edwards Cup (all the templates with Champions in the name in the categories that I've linked). Are any of those needed- to me they seem like needless clutter? Example in case people are confused would be Template:Sydney Sixers 2016–17 WBBL Champions. Joseph2302 (talk) 13:41, 31 March 2022 (UTC)
- Def. feels like clutter, esp. for T20 franchise leagues. You could get a prolific player, with a career spanning 10 to 15 years, playing in dozens and dozens of leagues, and being part of multiple winning teams. Winning domestic squad templates are not needed. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 14:51, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
- I'd get rid of them as well, they don't seem particularly useful. Imagine if the Yorkshire and Surrey articles had templates of their squads for every time they won the Championship... Richard3120 (talk) 20:16, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Combermere
- Combermere School#Notable alumni
- Sandiford, Keith A. P. (1998). "The Role of Combermere School". Cricket Nurseries of Colonial Barbados: The Elite Schools, 1865–1966. Press University of the West Indies. pp. 106–145. ISBN 9789766400460.
- Wikipedia:Embedded lists
This isn't about the AFD discussion; or the Administrators' Noticeboard discussion. Feel free to steer clear of them if you want to. ☺
The article currently has a list of "Notable alumni", which it is sourcing to the cricinfo database. Cricket editors could do so much better than that, based upon the aforementioned book. Professor Sandiford devotes 40 pages of running prose just to people who played cricket, at the school and later.
You could probably get a whole "Cricket nursery" section out of this; not just a mere list of players, but running prose discussions of their rôles within the school. For examples: Frank Collymore playing against Pickwick II and others (Sandiford 1998, pp. 114–116) and Derek Sealy's return to the school as a staff member (Sandiford 1998, pp. 118–120).
And yes, the same goes for Harrison College (Barbados)#Notable alumni and The Lodge School from the other chapters as well, probably.
Uncle G (talk) 00:48, 1 April 2022 (UTC)
Vijay Shankar page move
Hi. Please see this discussion. Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 07:45, 4 April 2022 (UTC)
Imran Khan (the cricketer)
I had a request on my talk page inquiring if Wikipedia has any photos of Imran Khan from his cricketing days. I looked around and could find none. I remember there used to be one of him lifting the 1992 World Cup trophy but it got deleted. It would be really great if someone could find a decent photo and upload it, provided it meets the licensing requirements on Commons of course. Mar4d (talk) 04:56, 5 April 2022 (UTC)