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::A couple of points on Jack's suggest/Andrew's comments — presumably players of associate (possibly affiliate matches) must count for notability only after the Associate status was granted - players who played before this don't count? Andrew mentions Oman in Division 2 (having List A status) - obviously matches under this would qualify under List A, rather than the Associate/Affiliate criterion so that should work around that issue.—[[User:Mdcollins1984|MDCollins]] ([[User talk:Mdcollins1984|talk]]) 11:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC) |
::A couple of points on Jack's suggest/Andrew's comments — presumably players of associate (possibly affiliate matches) must count for notability only after the Associate status was granted - players who played before this don't count? Andrew mentions Oman in Division 2 (having List A status) - obviously matches under this would qualify under List A, rather than the Associate/Affiliate criterion so that should work around that issue.—[[User:Mdcollins1984|MDCollins]] ([[User talk:Mdcollins1984|talk]]) 11:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC) |
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==Hard Look== |
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Is it not time for this group to take a long hard look at Blackjack. I note today that he is accusing an editor called Hampshirecricketfan of being me. I have also been AFB Burleson and heaven knows how many others. He has accused at least ten editors of being me or some kind of sockpuppett. He makes accustions against people and makes violent comments when his efforts are edited. He has traded under many names using open deception. Anyone who edits his work is evidently me and is harrasing him. I have also apprently sent him emails attacking his wife or something. One cannot allow this level of omnipotent behaviour. |
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His list of county cricket champions includes a self penned list that was described by the distinguished cricket historian Keith Warsop as 'pathetic'. This is meant to be an encyclopaedia not somewhere for pet theories, however interesting. Some people have worked hard on the WP cricket entries but it has developed into a personal fiefdom. Take the dates in cricket history which is cribbed from Wisden and is highly inaccurate. We know that Jack knows all. In fact Jack, like us all, knows what he has read. Some people on some subjects are better read. He is not a historian but an enthusiast.[[User:Rosebank2|Rosebank2]] ([[User talk:Rosebank2|talk]]) 11:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC) |
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List of ODI international records
I have nominated List of One Day International cricket records for featured list removal here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured list criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks; editors may declare to "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here.
IPL more relentless spam than ever?
I didn't see IPL last year but has the advertising become even more incessant. They have an ad on the TV scorebaord in the middle of the over and the commentators shut up when the camera zooms into the board and the ad is played at full volume. Also they have more junk; in addition to the "DLF maximum" they also have a "??? time-out" and some other "??? catch". When are they going to say "Hero Honda hat-trick" and "Ford Fiesta Four" or something..... The relentless tele-spamming is really getting to me, not to mention spending all their time panning to celebs in the crowd, and the cheerleading commentary, saying that every play is top-class and ignoring full tosses. How did KKR manage to win two matches..... YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:27, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Haha, I must admit I quite agree, it is incessant to the point of being ridiculous, and I think it is (marginally) worse than last year. However, I've got to give credit to ITV4 in the UK, who now cut away from the match during those annoying mid-over adverts and show us either their web address or details of the upcoming games... it's better than the adverts are anyway.
- While I'm on the topic of ITV4's coverage, there's something about the young Indian woman they've got presenting it that annoys me, and I can't figure out what... — AMBerry (talk) 00:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't get this year's package because I got sick of hearing "DLF maximum" every time someone hit a six (in fact, I don't think the words six or sixer were ever used by the commentators). I'm guess the young lady in question is Mandira Bedi? This is what T20 is about, according to her.—SpacemanSpiff 07:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I couldn't tell you. Turned the TV off after Rudi's boxing style intro. “Scorers are u ready? Umpire Tiffin are u ready? Fielding captain are u ready? Batsmen are you ready?. That was enough for me. Jevansen (talk) 08:15, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- It is Mandira Bedi. Apparently she was dropped from the Indian telecast and therefore moved to grace your ITV screens. Luckily I don't get to see either of the two in the US! —SpacemanSpiff 09:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I couldn't tell you. Turned the TV off after Rudi's boxing style intro. “Scorers are u ready? Umpire Tiffin are u ready? Fielding captain are u ready? Batsmen are you ready?. That was enough for me. Jevansen (talk) 08:15, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes I too had enough DLF maximums. Cricket has to have a certain sense of decorum! SGGH ping! 09:11, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I didn't get this year's package because I got sick of hearing "DLF maximum" every time someone hit a six (in fact, I don't think the words six or sixer were ever used by the commentators). I'm guess the young lady in question is Mandira Bedi? This is what T20 is about, according to her.—SpacemanSpiff 07:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I can't tell you how pleased I am that I've never seen an IPL game. I don't know what it is about it, but it depresses me even more than the incessant rise of 20/20 and the dreadful mess that's become of West Indies and Zimbabwe in recent years. Although not as much as the Stanford aberration. Thank the stars that man was a crook, because he was killing cricket even as the cricket world hailed him for saving it. --Dweller (talk) 10:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- IPL is the only cricket competition that many people around the world can watch live, legally and for free (through YouTube). If the ICC or the national boards could have as much ideas to promote their own competitions as the IPL organizers have, we may have other opportunities, but I doubt that they'll do the same in the near future. OrangeKnight (talk) 20:56, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
It's ridiculous, even the toss has a named sponsor now, and the captains were all praising 10 minutes of singing in the opening ceremony as earth-shattering etc. Just 20 guys jumping on a wooden board. The worst thing is the easy brainwashing by the corporate juggernaut. And it seems to have affected the random hapless Indian who doesn't normally follow cricket per Wikipedia_talk:In_the_news/Recurring_items#Cricket:_IPL they are saying that IPL is better than the WC and should be on wiki's front page; half the players are Indian quota players and barely FC standard. Some of the Indian "pacers" in the IPL bowl and 110-115kph with 50% full tosses, wides, half-volleys, long hops etc; the Australian/NZ women bowl at 120kph with accurate yorkers when the T20 was on TV. Some R Sathish bowled about 3 consec 110 kph fullies and Y Pathan in that "amazing innings" off 100 from 37.... so many boundaries from full tosses.... McCabe, Harvey, Trumper, Hammond and Compton would have been no match for 110 kph fullies, no doubt about it lol. Hopefully this spam does not make it onto the front page of WP:ITN!!! YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:38, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Okay here it is; I don't think you guys here are a big fan of Indian Premier League. Tried to read your post and tried to understand your reasons behind it and the conclusion I've found that you guys haven't watched it carefully. IPL is not a spam or something crap. IPL is different form of game. I guess all you guys here haven't seen much of T20 cricket because the two biggest countries which started t20 Australia and England have their own domestic T20 tournaments. Even if IPL is called DLF IPL ( with the name of sponsor) Australian domestic T20 tournament is called KFC Twenty20 bash (with the name of sponsor). Why don't you have problem with that??? IPL is not spam its just cricket with more spices, even the hardcore fans of Cricket from all over the world have appreciated the concept of Indian Premier League.
The person who is calling T20 the killing of cricket is none but a pessimistic person as T20 is not killing the Test Cricket its only making the cricket more dynamic. T20 is a revolution and when some revolution happens many people can't digest it.
Now getting back to IPL; it is the only tournament that calls all the best players of world at one place and asks them to exchange talent. County does it but in different way. County is I admit more simple, easy to go through but more political as it lacks transparency but as long as it is serving Cricket it is the best Domestic Cricket. In the same way IPL is; in different form of game. After all where would you now see Adam Gilchrist and Mathew Hadden one of the best Opening duos playing against each other. IPL calls the players from all over the world with the consent of the national boards of countries. It is the best talent exchange as a newbie Yusuf Abdullah from SA would never get a chance to play with veteran Anil Kumble or Zaheer Khan would never get a chance to play under Jonty Rhodes. IPL is innovative, it is dynamic, I admit it has some showbiz but if you are a real cricket fan you can watch some of world's best cricketers performing their best. Nitish.game (talk) 03:35, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Criteria for "notable players" at Left-arm orthodox spin
I have grabbed this question (which had just become an ANI thread though IMO unnecessary) and put it to you. Should there be stricter criteria for "notable"? It has spawned from a discussion about a Bangladeshi player but it begs bigger questions. Do we have a guideline/consensus to stop such debates from arising? Please hop over to the talk page to give an opinion. Cheers SGGH ping! 11:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Just generally, the rankings, although imprefect could be used, if an average, or total time above "700" was used, rather than the peak rating YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
New Article
I have created a new article - List of Test Match Cricket Centuries at The Basin Reserve. I wasn't sure about the introduction so I just stole it from The Basin Reserve Page. Also I don't know how to add photos. Thoughts? Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 14:53, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I've made a few changes but only minor ones. Take a look now to see how images are used. SGGH ping! 19:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Unrelated to the original question, but out of curiosity, should titles be "Test March Cricket Centuries" or "Test Cricket Centuries"? —SpacemanSpiff 20:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'd say List of Test cricket centuries at the Basin Reserve Harrias (talk) 20:40, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I would agree that that sounds better. I can't find a way of changing the title though. Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'd say List of Test cricket centuries at the Basin Reserve Harrias (talk) 20:40, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Unrelated to the original question, but out of curiosity, should titles be "Test March Cricket Centuries" or "Test Cricket Centuries"? —SpacemanSpiff 20:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- If we are decided on that title, one can move the article. Give me a shout. SGGH ping! 21:49, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- OK thanks everyone, I've renamed it. I wonder if it will need to be added to soon... Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 02:06, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- I've made a few changes but only minor ones. Take a look now to see how images are used. SGGH ping! 19:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
Notable club?
Just noticed this at WP:DYK, and I'm pretty sure it fails WP:CRIN, but thought I'd check here for opinions before submitting it for deletion. Wilbrahams Cricket Club don't play in an ECB Premier League, and as far as I can tell don't have a particularly notable history. They are undoubtedly old, but I'm not sure that in itself is enough. My dad is old after all... Harrias (talk) 21:36, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'd say they're as notable as my cricket club, which isn't very notable. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 21:45, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes it does, only 876 characters of readable prose. Be that as it may, shouldn't the article be PRODded or sent to Afd? – ukexpat (talk) 21:55, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- It'll never sneak past teh prose checkers YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 23:56, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes it does, only 876 characters of readable prose. Be that as it may, shouldn't the article be PRODded or sent to Afd? – ukexpat (talk) 21:55, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
They're so non notable that they don't even have any scorecards on CricketArchive, and that has scorecards from some league's third XI competitions. So yeah, non notable. Andrew nixon (talk) 22:39, 18 March 2010 (UTC)
More rubbish by Hilditch
North out, Steve Smith in, please YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 01:15, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- No way —Aaroncrick (talk) 02:48, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- With Aaron here. While North has not been up to scratch (of course he is 40* at the time of writing) what exactly has Smith done to deserve a Test cap? (Other than being born in Sydney of course ...) -- Mattinbgn\talk 04:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- Let him mature a bit more; he's only 20 for goodness sake. Don't get me started on his bowling. I'm sure that Katich could bowl better if he was coached by Warnie ... —Aaroncrick (talk) 05:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- Looks like monkey and guru greg are outnumbered. Well Neil Harvey only played for 1.5 seasons before getting in; FC average of 60 (albeit in a dozen games) yes his bowling isn't good enough (unless something changed against SA) but NZ can't bat properly and neither will Pakistan sans Y&Y. And North although he did well in Joburg his selection was very lucky. Yes he made centuries twice in England but Australia had already taken the lead by the time the fourth wicket was down, they were miles ahead. Hodge is hated by the selectors, and Klinger won't get selected even if he averages 90 because the Australian selectors want counterattacking batsmen. They could move Katich or Watson down to bring in Jaques or Rogers, but they won't. YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:31, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- Let him mature a bit more; he's only 20 for goodness sake. Don't get me started on his bowling. I'm sure that Katich could bowl better if he was coached by Warnie ... —Aaroncrick (talk) 05:07, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- With Aaron here. While North has not been up to scratch (of course he is 40* at the time of writing) what exactly has Smith done to deserve a Test cap? (Other than being born in Sydney of course ...) -- Mattinbgn\talk 04:58, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
Another new article!
Just created this: List of Test cricket centuries at The WACA Ground. I wrote some stuff on there myself this time so there may well be a few errors in it. Let me know what you think. Cheers. Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 22:01, 19 March 2010 (UTC)
- Great, so are we just going to have Test centuries not ones for ODIs? What about creating a cat eventually? —Aaroncrick (talk) 00:29, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Does anyone know how to fix the table when you use the sort options as it goes a bit wild? =S —Aaroncrick (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah I've undone the table change. Good job on the other tweaks though. Adding number of balls sounds like a good idea too. I was just going to do test centuries, I'm not sure if ODIs would have to go on a seperate page. Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 01:00, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Does anyone know how to fix the table when you use the sort options as it goes a bit wild? =S —Aaroncrick (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm working on the SCG at the moment, it's taking a lot longer! Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 01:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- I reckon the FL reviewers would want a sortable table so it might help it we can get a FL regular to comment on how to format the tables correctly. —Aaroncrick (talk) 02:02, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Merging cells always makes things tricky. I had to remove all the merged cells from List of Philadelphia Flyers players to get that to sort properly. I'll have a play in my sandbox at some point and see what I can do. Harrias (talk) 10:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thankyou, my play-around didn't work too well. —Aaroncrick (talk) 12:33, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Merging cells always makes things tricky. I had to remove all the merged cells from List of Philadelphia Flyers players to get that to sort properly. I'll have a play in my sandbox at some point and see what I can do. Harrias (talk) 10:16, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- I reckon the FL reviewers would want a sortable table so it might help it we can get a FL regular to comment on how to format the tables correctly. —Aaroncrick (talk) 02:02, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- If you call it "List of international centuries" you could have Test and ODI in one article. Or would it be too long? SGGH ping! 13:06, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- For the WACA it would only be an additional 19 so that sounds ok. Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 13:22, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
Here we go: List of International cricket centuries at The WACA Ground Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 19:07, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
- Suggestions: Normally our century lists include the innings, so a column with the innings and a reference to the CA or CI scorecard might be helpful at the end. For sorting to work the rowspans will need to be removed and the dates etc would have to repeat in each row. Also, it might be worthwhile adding these lists to {{International cricket centuries}} with a new section for grounds. cheers —SpacemanSpiff 19:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)
I have changed it to make it sortable: List of international cricket centuries at The Basin Reserve. Do you think the team of the century scorer should go into a different column? The way it is at the moment you cannot sort by team. Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 16:13, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Definitely. Per WP:MOSFLAG, you shouldn't label players purely with flags anyway. Harrias talk 16:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- OK thanks. I think it looks a lot better now. Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 18:46, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree; sorry if I sounded a bit snappy with the MOS comment. To improve the sortability of the dates try using {{dts|format=dmy|1974|December|11}} to display 11 December 1974. It will then sort by year, then month, then day, rather than at the moment sorting by day, then month, then year. Harrias talk 19:23, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- OK thanks. I think it looks a lot better now. Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 18:46, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
Great work Apples. The SCG list just goes to show how rapidly and ridiculously the conditions have been altered in favour of the batsmen, per the boom in centuries in the last 10 years. But the WACA and Basin Reserve have not for some reason.... But I think a list of the other Australian grounds will show a big boom as well YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 04:12, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
I have completly finished the SCG now. What is the deal with the new article template at the top, can it be removed by anyone? Also might it be a good idea to seperate the grounds into different countries in the template at the bottom? Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 18:02, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- The tag is auto added if you use the article wizard. Not sure if the creator should remove the tag, but if you create as a new page instead of doing it through the wizard, the tag will not be added. I've removed it from this one. cheers. —SpacemanSpiff 18:11, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
New articles at review
- Peer review
- Featured article
- Featured list
- List of international cricket centuries by Mahela Jayawardene • review
- Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of international cricket centuries by Viv Richards/archive1
- Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Sri Lankan Test cricket records/archive1
- Good article
YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
and some other lists of articles need RC patrolling on RCs linked; with Jpeeling gone, vandalism is lasting long time on the weekends and British daytime YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 05:07, 22 March 2010 (UTC)
- Is this correct? I'm guessing not, but I couldn't find evidence one way or the other on CI. —SpacemanSpiff 22:32, 23 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes and no. His grandfather came from Kashmir, and Kabir spent some of his youth there. See this article. Harrias talk 08:58, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Needs some help from you guys, I reckon. I forget why it is on my watchlist. --Bduke (Discussion) 06:13, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- Is this ground really notable? It hasn't hosted any full international matches, first-class matches, List A matches or Twenty20 matches. Harrias talk 08:55, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
- I would argue it is non-notable, as per the above. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 22:18, 24 March 2010 (UTC)
Definitely minor but have you seen this re its alternate name? ----Jack | talk page 06:09, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Eyes might be needed. I'm getting the impression that many IPL/Modi supporters just see IPL as equivalent to one of those Asian weddings where being the most lavish etc etc counts the most in proving one's superiority YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 02:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Incorrect reporting about death of Ron Hamence
Cricinfo said Invincibles were in 1948 and "Adelaide Now" and Deccan Herald, the sponsors of the Deccan Chargers have copied it in incorrectly YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:16, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Actually The Deccan Chronicle owns the chargers, not the Herald. —SpacemanSpiff 15:56, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Full form or abbreviation?
In Template:Infobox cricketer biography, is it necessary to write the full form of 'Test cricket', 'One Day Internationals', 'First-class cricket', 'List A cricket', or abbreviations are ok like 'Test', 'ODI', 'FC', 'LA'. Some random IP user is making edits to some articles like Waqar Younis, Wasim Akram and says that this is the proper British English writing forms and changing to full form. Need your views on this.--Managerarc(talk) 16:20, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- The abbreviations should be good enough IMO, they are all linked anyway and very very common usage. The only one that may merit a full form is "List A" instead of "LA" as that I believe is not commonly used (at least not in the subcontinent). —SpacemanSpiff 16:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Hi - point him towards the template guidelines. As Spaceman says, as long as they are linked, the short form is to be used (in the statistics), and in actual fact is necessary otherwise the infobox has width issues. With the 4 column box, Test, ODI, FC, and List A works best (List A fits and as it is the less obvious one I tend to use it); For the 2-3 column version, the abbreviations are not always necessary. Claiming "british writing forms" is pretty stupid. Expanding the date ranges as in some of his edits to 2002, 2003, 2004 etc is just wrong.—MDCollins (talk) 23:34, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Another first-class cricketer up for deletion
George Blackmore, former cricketer for the Europeans and Kent, up for debate. His article is here, his AfD page is here, and his stats are here (CA) and here (CI).
Hope everyone is well. Bobo. 17:30, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
WP:CRIN needs revision
The above case of George Blackmore has raised a few interesting points. The main one is that WP:CRIN may need to be revised, even though most of it was written by me. On reflection, I have to ask what exactly is "notable" about someone who played a handful of first-class matches? What exactly is notable about anyone who ever played in limited overs, especially the Twenty20 rubbish?
As the site is so fond of lists, why not populate some lists of first-class cricketers with the meagre details of those who made a few appearances instead of individual articles, especially as those articles tend to be stubs and orphans. I, as one of the worst offenders, have seen the futility of that. Having said that, see List of early English cricketers to 1786 which contains basic information about numerous players who made a couple of appearances and do not have an individual article. A standard?
Any thoughts? ----Jack | talk page 23:43, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- A few thoughts come to mind.
- Wikipedia is a work in progress, articles that are what I like to call "super stubs" with only 1 FC appearance, lets say, shouldn't perhaps be discounted in light of future expansion. Particularly about lower level cricket matches (not notable enough on their own, but notable information for a subject which passes the current CRIN.)
- Having FC, LA or T20 experience is a quantitative assessment criteria, most other forms would be too subjective I feel "A few appearances" is a bit vague, and if we left it to, say, three appearances, well that's just back to quantitative assessment again. I cam see the arguments that appear when we have "list of notable off-spinners" appearing on such articles.
- I know T20 has its detractors, but given its impact around the world I think being against it as an inclusion criteria would make a lot of notable players non-notables, particularly in the future.
Just some thoughts that come to mind. I'm in no way admonishing your suggestions, merely advocating devilry. :) SGGH ping! 23:52, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Mkativerata makes a good point at that AfD though: FC cricket was not always professional like it is today (professionalism that forms the basis of players of FC cricket's notability per WP:ATHLETE) as it was at one time an amateur or semi-professional thing. SGGH ping! 23:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well salary shouldn't be a criteria of notability, else a person in the top 10 in swimming or track cycling would be nn but for their govt scholarship YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 00:21, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- Mkativerata makes a good point at that AfD though: FC cricket was not always professional like it is today (professionalism that forms the basis of players of FC cricket's notability per WP:ATHLETE) as it was at one time an amateur or semi-professional thing. SGGH ping! 23:55, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
- I tend to agree with BlackJack. It is very hard to defend WP:CRIN at some AfD discussions when the only source for the article is a scorecard or two at CricketArchive. I think the "list" option with a redirect to the list for very early players and players with very limited sources is a worthwhile endeavour. This may also apply to some of the minor county players in English List A tournaments including the somewhat infamous autobiographic Gareth White article!
- In fact, the only thing I can disagree with in the above is the use of value judgements about the relative worth of different forms of the game in determining notability. I do not particularly enjoy limited overs cricket (although I prefer the brief 20 over form more than the bloated and pedestrian 50 over version) but my views are not important. Availability of sources and compliance with WP:ATHLETE are the important considerations. Certainly it would be hard to argue that a person who has played the one match in the KFC Big Bash in front of 30,000 people is any less notable than a player who has played the one match in a Sheffield Shield match in front of a crowd consisting of the scorers, the groundstaff and (maybe) the players' wives and girlfriends! -- Mattinbgn\talk 00:04, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I don't know if it could apply as a precedent but the position in List of early English cricketers to 1786 is that players with one or two appearances don't have a standalone article unless they acquired notability beyond those appearances. Okay, I accept that T20 and LO is going to be equated with FC for notability purposes, especially going forward. I like Mattinbgn's point about "a scorecard or two at CricketArchive". As you say, the number of sources is important and one thing I have tried to do with the early players is try to establish other sources besides the merely statistical. I would propose that if a player is only known via a scorecard, he is what User:Rnickel refers to as a bit-part player or an "extra". ----Jack | talk page 00:23, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- <ec> These AfDs seem to be coming up quite a bit at the moment (remembering in particular Basanta Regmi (AfD)). What I like about the current guidelines is that it is definite and non-subjective. It is clear cut. Maybe on the wrong sides of battle lines for some, but it does provide clarification on what is a very grey area. By saying that, I am in no way advocating that the current set-up is the best, nor that I would (necessarily) argue that 1 List A drubbing in the NatWest trophy (or whatever guise) for a minor county against a major one should meet notability. The Basanta Regmi argument was whether a match for Nepal against another country counted as a full international, even though the match was no where near List A. I opted for deletion, going by our current guidelines (as that is why they were put in place), even though I said I would support a (well-devised) revision, with full-consensus, of WP:CRIN.
- As for "super-stubs" (I think "sub-stubs" would be better), yes WP:CRIN advocates inclusion, but as we've seen "Mr X played one FC match in 1764 for so-and-so village"+infobox is about the limit. A well-devised table which could include the stats horizontally for which they could be redirected would be an excellent solution to this problem, providing they could all be grouped in a logical way. That wouldn't really work for the Basanta Regmi-types, where full information can be found (mostly at U19 level) to make a "full-stub", but if we are considering a revision of WP:CRIN, it probably needs to be a full one.—MDCollins (talk) 00:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- Merging content to lists, there's nothing that prevents us from doing so, with or without an AfD. However, if we apply the "scorecard" rule, we will also be eliminating potential notables as SGGH opined above. Many of the women cricketers, have nothing except scorecards and CI/CA profiles available easily, despite having played over a dozen or two games for the national teams. As it is we don't recognize Belinda Clark as the first double-century scorer in ODI cricket, but if we go the list route, a good chunk of these players who deserve articles wouldn't have them. Keeping the notability criteria as-is but discussing lists here would be my preference. —SpacemanSpiff 00:42, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
The ICC has a list of what it regards as "official cricket" at this link. It clearly defines all official internationals and it has a good list of what is regarded as first-class in each of the ten ICC full members, and whilst it doesn't go into as much detail for List A and Twenty20 cricket, I think we can certainly use it as a basis for any future rewrite of WP:CRIN.
Whatever happens though, we can't have the situation we currently have, where people argue that (the following names are made up) Frederick Harrington-Smythe, who played one first-class match for Lord Snooty's XI in 1827 is worthy of an article, whilst players who have played more than 20 official internationals aren't worthy of an article. Andrew nixon (talk) 01:24, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- The official list is interesting but it doesn't answer the old question of how to classify matches played before the definition was made. We can only go on what the sources indicate on the understanding that, while the sources are verifiable, none are official in terms of any match's status.
- Your Lord Snooty example encapsulates the current problem with WP:CRIN. My proposal is that the early cricketers list sets a precedent in that bit-part extras should go into a list of this kind but not have a standalone article unless a source indicates that they have additional notability: e.g., Sir Horatio Mann made just a couple or so known appearances but he has enormous importance as a major patron during the sport's formative years. The same precedent would be easily applicable to someone who made a single Sunday League appearance. ----Jack | talk page 08:52, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I've sometimes felt it's a little ridiculous for players who have played a single f-c match without distinguishing themselves to have an article. But I think the advantage of having a definite guideline means that we should stick with that, as it's hard to see what other truly objective guideline would be practical (requiring three matches, say, would be artitrary). I think the "professional league" thing is a bit of a red herring when it comes to cricket, where some of the greatest players have been amateurs. One wouldn't want to exclude a player such as Frank Cobden, who played only for Cambridge University and MCC, and hence never in a professional league, but was the hero of one of cricket's most famous matches (at least as far as those of us interested in the game's history are concerned). JH (talk page) 10:06, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- A player like Cobden would easily pass the "additional notability" test because he is mentioned in numerous sources and is not just a name on a scorecard; besides, his feat in the 1870 match was exceptional. I think Cobden and his ilk pass WP:ATH because of its second criterion: "People who have competed at the highest amateur level of a sport". The University Match, GvP and most MCC matches have always been first-class fixtures, so the amateurs involved have been taking part at the highest amateur level. ----Jack | talk page 15:35, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- While sometimes vague, I do think there only needs to be minor tweaking with WP:CRIC. Providing the player has played at least 1 first-class/List-A/T20 match then they are notable. Non-Test/ODI cricketers are more of a grey area, but at the end of the day we are a type of cricket archive, so providing they have played the above then they are notable. How many players who have played 1 of the above articles created? Not many, so not worth fussing over. AssociateAffiliate (talk) 21:29, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think I'm like User:Mdcollins1984 and User:Jhall1. I'm relatively happy with the clear-cut-ness of the present CRIN, and with the fact that there are hundreds of obscure-but-notable cricketers who qualify but won't ever have more than a stub article, if that. We're not paper, and I don't think it matters too much. But aside from the pre-definition problem, where I'd always defer to Jack's knowledge, a couple of other areas do concern me: one a little, the other a lot.
- The big one is the point raised by the Basanta Regmi deletion case, which highlighted the inadequacy and anomalies of the present limited definition at CRIN, and after which we really should have amended CRIN to avoid another such instance. The point is that CRIN relates reasonably well to historic cricket between, say, 1890 and 1990, but is wobbly before and after these dates, latterly because of the worldwide explosion in venues, teams and types.
- My smaller worry is that we define people as "cricketers" when, in many cases, that cricket career formed a very small part of their total lives: you can get around that to a degree by the phraseology - "Samuel Beckett was a playwright who also played first-class cricket for..." rather than "Samuel Beckett was a first-class cricketer who played...". Because cricket is so well-served by cricketarchive and cricinfo, and other aspects of lives often aren't so well-served, we're at times in danger of emphasising something that the subject of the article might not recognise as significant, let alone notable. Johnlp (talk) 21:56, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- The smaller worry has long been a concern of mine too, When the article for William Worsley was first created, for instance, you'd hardly have known that there was anything more to him than cricket. Even now, the lead paragraph still only covers his cricket.Even consulting Wisden obituaries isn't always much help, as they tend to concentrate on the cricket to the near exclusion of everything else. But of course the Akmanmack is specifically for cricketers, rather than being a general encyclopaedia like Wikipedia. JH (talk page) 22:14, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
I hadn't previously seen the Basanta Regmi deletion case and I agree with Johnlp that it does highlight a significant problem with CRIN because, within it, the status of international teams is a grey area. I wrote the section called "Clubs and teams" but it is domestic stuff that was aimed at classifying minor English club sides in particular. In the "Individuals" section, this statement does not help much at all: "The major cricket qualification includes any player or umpire who has appeared in a Test match since 1877; or in a limited overs international (including Twenty20 internationals) since 1971". The problem is that, strictly speaking, a limited overs international is defined by the ICC as one between teams of LOI/ODI status and there are only 16 of these at present.
Given that six countries with ODI status are all ICC Associate Members, and it seems inconsistent (typical ICC) that the rest of the Associates are excluded, I think CRIN should be amended to include any international match involving two teams representing Full or Associate Members. This would presumably put Mr Regmi above the line and make him notable in terms of his many international appearances. I would also amend major cricket to include these internationals: remember that "major cricket" is a completely unofficial term and has no definition which would exclude an international between, say, Nepal and Germany.
I suppose we ought to take a view about tournaments such as the World Cricket League but I think if we lower the line to a level just below Associate Member, that will solve the problem.
I notice the Regmi AfD made reference to the case of James Rice and, although I created the Rice stub (it isn't an article), it is players like this that are the basis of my original question above. Rice did play first-class cricket but he is only a name on three scorecards and I haven't seen anything else about him, although I suspect, from an earlier usage of the name Rice, that he is a pseudonym used by Thomas Assheton Smith II. Conspiracy theory! Rice definitely meets CRIN because he was involved in major cricket even if it is argued that the term "first-class cricket" should not apply so early. The point is what else can be said about him other than churning out the statistics of four matches (three major and one minor) which are included in S&B? ----Jack | talk page 05:50, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Category for discussion at Commons
See commons:Commons:Categories for discussion/2010/03/Category:Cricket players. –Moondyne 03:02, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
Super Fours
Does anyone know if these are put together on a regional basis, random mixing up by selectors from year to year, or the palyers can just sign up wherever they want? Also of the women's counties, only Kent have an article YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 03:30, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
- As far as I know, the teams are selected by the England selectors. Andrew nixon (talk) 07:11, 26 March 2010 (UTC)
WP:CRIN – proposed wording change
Further to the topic above and with specific reference to the point raised by Johnlp about international matches, I suggest a rewording of the second paragraph of WP:CRIN to read as follows with the addition of one new sentence:
"The major cricket qualification includes any player or umpire who has appeared in a Test match since 1877; or in a limited overs international (including Twenty20 internationals) since 1971; or in any major domestic competition. For this purpose, a limited overs international is defined as any international match involving two teams representing countries that are Full or Associate Members of the ICC. Major domestic first-class competitions include the County Championship, the Ranji Trophy, the Sheffield Shield, etc. Major domestic limited overs competitions include all ListA matches and the Twenty20 Cup, Indian Premier League, etc."
We need to be clear that embracing all Associate Member international matches will greatly increase the scope of our notability criteria. It may be that some of you prefer to impose a limitation according to certain levels of competition; some of you may prefer an even broader scope by inclusion of Affiliate Members. Could we please discuss and try to achieve a consensus? ----Jack | talk page 09:20, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with that is that it excludes high ranking affiliate members, notably Afghanistan, and also Oman, who are in WCL Division 2, which has List A status. There's a chance that those two will meet in the semi-finals or final of the ACC Trophy next month - is a player in that match notable, if he has no major appearances? It also over represents low performing Associate members, such as Israel or Gibraltar, who are currently ranked below eight affiliate nations.
- I'd propose a cut off based on WCL division and regional tournament division. The most recent WCL5 tournament included three teams with first-class matches under their belt, and one that played in the most recent World Twenty20 Qualifier, so that seems as good a place as any to place the cut off point. As for regional tournaments, the top divisions could theoretically include ODI matches (the 2006 and 2008 European Division One and the 2006 Americas Division One did), so that seems the correct place to place the regional cut-off. The ACC Trophy before 2008 didn't have a divisional structure, so we may have to limit that to the last eight of the tournaments.
- The question is what we'd do with the ICC Trophy tournaments before the WCL started - the 2005 tournament has List A status, so that's not a problem. Our current cut-off is playing in the final, so I'd suggest extending that to the quarter final/Super 8s stage. Andrew nixon (talk) 09:49, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- I should of course mention that we should include a clause similar to what we currently have indicating that just because a player doesn't match the criteria, it doesn't mean he can't have an article - for example, Shamazuddin Khan, who played at low levels for Germany, wouldn't meet my proposed criteria, but he does have the distinction of being the first player to score a double century in an international limited overs match, (see my article for the others who beat Tendulkar) which clearly gives him notability. Andrew nixon (talk) 09:54, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- Jack's solution looks good to me, and thank you for acting on this (as I said upstairs, we really should have done this after the Basanta Regmi case, but it is, in any event, only a few weeks). My only change, for completeness, would be to add within it a link that would take a prospective user quickly to a list of who's a Full or Associate Member so anyone new coming in would be able to see at a glance whether the criteria were being adhered to. This may greatly increase the scope, but I don't see massive pressure to create vast numbers of articles from these associate member nations, and if that happens, then WP is big enough to handle it. I think there's a strong case for the line being clear wherever it is drawn and based on current status of match participants, not their actual playing strength: you could probably argue, for example, that Staffordshire in the 1920s with Sydney Barnes were stronger than the Worcestershire sides of the time, but that doesn't alter their actual status. To draw a line that isn't supported by some external criterion is, in my view, taking us close to OR. Johnlp (talk) 09:59, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
- A couple of points on Jack's suggest/Andrew's comments — presumably players of associate (possibly affiliate matches) must count for notability only after the Associate status was granted - players who played before this don't count? Andrew mentions Oman in Division 2 (having List A status) - obviously matches under this would qualify under List A, rather than the Associate/Affiliate criterion so that should work around that issue.—MDCollins (talk) 11:44, 27 March 2010 (UTC)
Hard Look
Is it not time for this group to take a long hard look at Blackjack. I note today that he is accusing an editor called Hampshirecricketfan of being me. I have also been AFB Burleson and heaven knows how many others. He has accused at least ten editors of being me or some kind of sockpuppett. He makes accustions against people and makes violent comments when his efforts are edited. He has traded under many names using open deception. Anyone who edits his work is evidently me and is harrasing him. I have also apprently sent him emails attacking his wife or something. One cannot allow this level of omnipotent behaviour. His list of county cricket champions includes a self penned list that was described by the distinguished cricket historian Keith Warsop as 'pathetic'. This is meant to be an encyclopaedia not somewhere for pet theories, however interesting. Some people have worked hard on the WP cricket entries but it has developed into a personal fiefdom. Take the dates in cricket history which is cribbed from Wisden and is highly inaccurate. We know that Jack knows all. In fact Jack, like us all, knows what he has read. Some people on some subjects are better read. He is not a historian but an enthusiast.Rosebank2 (talk) 11:38, 28 March 2010 (UTC)