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:::::::::: Hearing no further concerns, I will adapt the policy of NOT using the {{when?}} tag immediately as suggested by numerous users, and I will get back to otherwise continuing to add the birth/death year information as normal to all persons I come across in USA towns and cities across the country (beginning by low population and working to higher population states) in the "Notable people" sections. I will also continue with the standardization formatting as I have, and will edit the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#Notable people]] section as mentioned previously to reflect this. Lastly, for citations and sourcing, that will need to be left to the primary article, and I will of course NEVER insert anything that is NOT on the primary article on the "Notable people" list, but I will otherwise leave that unsourced ON the "Notable people" list (the lifespan part) as that was deemed "excessive previously by another editor too. Thanks everyone for the feedback, and please feel free to reach out to me on my talk page then if anyone would like to do an "edit-a-thon" with me one one state or another and we can divvy it up together. {{heart}} [[User:Th78blue|Th78blue]] (They/Them/Theirs • [[User talk:Th78blue|talk)]] 20:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC) |
:::::::::: Hearing no further concerns, I will adapt the policy of NOT using the {{when?}} tag immediately as suggested by numerous users, and I will get back to otherwise continuing to add the birth/death year information as normal to all persons I come across in USA towns and cities across the country (beginning by low population and working to higher population states) in the "Notable people" sections. I will also continue with the standardization formatting as I have, and will edit the [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#Notable people]] section as mentioned previously to reflect this. Lastly, for citations and sourcing, that will need to be left to the primary article, and I will of course NEVER insert anything that is NOT on the primary article on the "Notable people" list, but I will otherwise leave that unsourced ON the "Notable people" list (the lifespan part) as that was deemed "excessive previously by another editor too. Thanks everyone for the feedback, and please feel free to reach out to me on my talk page then if anyone would like to do an "edit-a-thon" with me one one state or another and we can divvy it up together. {{heart}} [[User:Th78blue|Th78blue]] (They/Them/Theirs • [[User talk:Th78blue|talk)]] 20:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC) |
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::::::::::: Actually, I DID mean to ask... what DO we want to put INSTEAD of the {{when?}} tag when we DO NOT KNOW the birth or death year of a person? What is normally put in this format? Say when it is a birth year of 1900 but no known death year, or a death year of 1999, but no known birth year? When it is a CIRCA, I of course know what to do, but what about a COMPLETE UNKNOWN? (capitalizations for emphasis only, not "screaming"). {{smiley}} [[User:Th78blue|Th78blue]] (They/Them/Theirs • [[User talk:Th78blue|talk)]] 20:33, 16 November 2021 (UTC) |
::::::::::: Actually, I DID mean to ask... what DO we want to put INSTEAD of the {{when?}} tag when we DO NOT KNOW the birth or death year of a person? What is normally put in this format? Say when it is a birth year of 1900 but no known death year, or a death year of 1999, but no known birth year? When it is a CIRCA, I of course know what to do, but what about a COMPLETE UNKNOWN? (capitalizations for emphasis only, not "screaming"). {{smiley}} [[User:Th78blue|Th78blue]] (They/Them/Theirs • [[User talk:Th78blue|talk)]] 20:33, 16 November 2021 (UTC) |
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*I cannot stress eoiugh how extremely obnoxious I find the attempt to plaster this "template" all over articles about places in Alaska: |
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[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chefornak,_Alaska&diff=prev&oldid=1055921351] |
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NOTICE * * * NOTICE * * * NOTICE * * * * * * * * * * * *NOTICE * * * NOTICE * * * NOTICE• Only people who already have a Wikipedia article may appear here. This establishes notability. |
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• A Wikipedia article must exist for anyone to be included in this list, this clearly establishes verifiable notability. |
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• The Wikipedia article itself should mention the person's association with Chefornak, Alaska. |
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• Alphabetical by last name please, within the appropriate category. |
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• Add birth year and death year in the: (b. 1990), (1900–1999), (c. 1950), format when available. Just after the name, and just before career details. |
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• All others will be deleted without further explanation. |
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END OF NOTICE * * * * * * * * * * * * END OF NOTICE * * * * * * * * * * * *END OF NOTICE |
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I do not think there is broad community support for just robotically adding this and {{tl|dynamic list}} to every single article on a named place. |
Revision as of 18:18, 18 November 2021
This project page does not require a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||
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Flags on sister cities sections
See: Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Cities#International_relations_and_twin_cities_-_use_of_flag_icons.
Transportation and Health care (but nothing else) included in infrastructure?
Can someone explain the rationale here? I don't understand it at all. If the point is to include "soft infrastructure", that's all well and good, but Wikipedia's own article on this topic includes financial system, the education system, the system of government, law enforcement, and emergency services under "soft infrastructure". If they all should be included there, then that's all well and good, but just including healthcare there makes no sense to me. Famartin (talk) 01:15, 31 August 2021 (UTC)
New population graph
I have concerns about a self-created population graph an editor has added to hundreds of US articles. Your input at Talk:Fairbank, Iowa#Population graph would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 15:09, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
Infrastructure
Infrastructure is listed as a bullet point of Geography section but is also called out as its own main section. Can someone please elaborate to differentiate or revise? I hate duplication and structural ambiguity. Stephen Charles Thompson (talk) 19:29, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
- @Famartin: You also had a concern about the infrastructure section. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:24, 2 October 2021 (UTC)
Notable people sections of towns/cities all across the US
Hi everyone!
So I would have started the conversation here, as I have been trying to streamline and improve the "Notable people" list sections across the encyclopedia that are commonly listed in most cities in towns in the USA (as well as across the globe), I first posted about this project at Wikipedia talk:Typo Team#Not exactly "Typos" per se, but grammar, and I do not know where else to put this (still "new"), because I didn't know about this wonderful project "WikiProject Cities" I'll need to join up here right after this!
Here is what I am trying to accomplish.
"Notable people" lists are really interesting to me, and are a fun "deep dive" across the encyclopedia to learn about the history of people that are "Notable" (for good or bad reasons, no matter!) across various areas. I first wanted to establish consensus (even on this "small" addition) to the all "Notable people" sections, and I suspect that it will be received warmly since what I am suggesting is entirely neutral and is already in SOME "Notable people" sections", but not all. It is the CONSISTENCY across them all that I am trying to help with mostly! Some sections have a brief birth and death year such as (b. 1900) or (1900–1999), but many other "Notable people" sections have nothing. I'd volunteer up my time to help correct for this discrepancy and add something to them all, pulling from the primary wiki-articles of course, so it should at least be verifiable based on the original page.
I'd also like to establish a "template" that we suggest (not require) is used across all "Notable people" sections for all towns/cities/etc. in the USA. Maybe even the world! But that might be another wikiproject. {smiley}
To kick start this (and please don't take this as me not wanting to seek consensus first, its just that I am still fairly new and didn't know where to go, which is why I went to the Typo Team as my best thought—see above—first!), I have completed ALL of the Notable people lists for some states that are low in population such as New Hampshire and Wyoming as well as ALL of them for Philadelphia, Orlando, Key West, St. Petersburg, and Dagestan (not in the USA, I know). I tend to start by pulling a list of all of the "Municipalities in XYZ state" such as here for NH, or here for WY, then just working top down until complete.
The template I suggest is simple (and here are some examples for what I have suggested, and been using, any feedback at this juncture is much appreciated. The simple thing that I am really ADDING to ALL is the birth and death year, which I am simply pulling from the person's wikiarticle itself, though one user @Magnolia677: has suggested that this in itself is not reliable enough. That may well be true, but when doing hundreds of these, and just for the sake of the LIST on each town/city of "Notable people", I feel that it is fairly reliable 99% of the time, and a good place to start and show people at a GLANCE what ages are for each person in the respective "Notable people" list):
So now for my templates... (Also, I ALWAYS use an "N" – dash in between the birth and death date, as I believe that is already established in MOS on birthdate "Abbreviations like b. and d. can be used, if needed, when space is limited (e.g., in a table) and when used repetitively (e.g., in a list of people)."
Standard template if all information is available on a person from birth to death, career details etc. Jane Doe (1900–1999), doctor, lawyer, dentist
No period at the end, because these are lists that are open and not complete sentences. Also, I use active wikilinks for the FIRST iteration of each career detail, but not the subsequent ones (i.e. another doctor or lawyer later on in the same list for the same town or city would not be made to be a wikilink).
If the person is still alive, but the rest is known: Jane Doe (b. 1900), doctor, lawyer, dentist
If there is unknown information about the birth or death date, this is the one I prefer to use a [when?] tag for, but I am open to another format if that is instead preferred, just let me know what it is!!
Jane Doe ([when?]–1999), doctor, lawyer, dentist or Jane Doe (1900–[when?]), doctor, lawyer, dentist
I use the [when?] tag because it calls some attention to it, and I HAVE noticed in several instances where some other editor will come back later and then insert it the known/found/verified birth or death year information, but I will gladly replace this with something else in its stead if consensus is reached on what to replace it with (for either an unknown birth or death year, or both!).
If the birth year OR the death year are rough, or approximate, or several years could be possible, I use the earliest/oldest year verifiably available and then insert a "c." for circa such as the following examples:
If both birth and death year are approximate: Jane Doe (c. 1900–c. 1999), doctor, lawyer, dentist
If just the birth year is approximate: Jane Doe (c. 1900–1999), doctor, lawyer, dentist
If just the death year is approximate: Jane Doe (1900–c. 1999), doctor, lawyer, dentist
If there is NO wikiarticle for someone, I generally remove them.
If the listing is NOT an individual, but rather a BAND or GROUP, then I remove them on the basis that individuals are to be listed as "Notable people", because only individuals are a constant (don't change) and may all be verified as both notable and FROM a particular city or town.
Lastly, there are some unique cases, such as when someone was listed as "disappeared", which I ran into once. That is a case where we KNOW WHEN they disappeared, but NOT WHEN exactly they may have died, and I felt that was worth including in the line so I wrote something like the following:
Jane Doe (1900–disappeared c. 1974), doctor, lawyer, dentist
I have been doing hundreds of these a day, and have amassed over 5,000+ edits thus far in this pursuit. It is not easy work, it is redundant, boring, but exactly the sort of outlet that my OCD needs! Given enough time, I could have the entire country done, maybe, though I would MORE than appreciate help on this! As I might die before I accomplish that goal. {smiley}
I have already had the joy of encountering some supportive comments from some editors that tend to focus on one particular state or another, such as @Ken Gallager: from New Hampshire. Ken also pointed out that AFTER the parentheses of the close of the birth and death year, I should add a COMMA (which I was previously removing)! Thank you very much Ken Gallager for that early supportive comment and for helping me to improve my grammar as I proceed with this fairly monumental, and tedious, task. {smiley|tongue}
Another editor raised a question and wanted to make sure that I got consensus before proceeding, which is always a fair thing to ask I feel. (@Magnolia677:. Magnolia677 in particular asked on my talk page about the fact that I am adding birth/death years taken from the primary article, but then suggested that this may not always be sourced or verified ON the article itself.
Given that I am doing hundreds of these per day, it would greatly impede my progress to ensure each and every one was fully cited and sourced, and so I ask that we please go with whatever is on the article itself. We can always edit/change the birth/death year again if better/newer information comes later! I do indeed often revisit and continue to "work" the lists that I have already completed (part of the reason that I really like the [when?] tags).
Happy to hear everyone's comments, and I plan to dive back into this project full steam tomorrow! I'll hopefully hear from some of you today then, or soon! Much appreciated! Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 19:55, 14 November 2021 (UTC)
- If there are no objections to my plan, I plan to continue working on completing these "Notable people" standardizations and the addition of the birth year/ death years, in the following states soon: Alaska, Delaware, Vermont, Maine, Rhode Island, and then onward down the list (beginning with lowest populations to higher etc. Thanks everyone for reading and for helping to build this wonderful encyclopedia together! Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 02:35, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Th78blue: Please stop adding unsourced dates to articles. Also, please stop adding "[when?]" to names in notable people sections that do not have birth and death dates listed; there is no requirement that birth and death dates be added. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:35, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- I think overall that it's a great idea to have the birth and death years in the Notable People sections. It provides an important context for readers who are quickly looking at the list. I will echo Magnolia677's comments on the "When" tag - it doesn't really help the reader to see those comments, and an editor coming through later can easily check the notable person's article to see if dates have been added. Instead, you could perhaps add a short phrase to the person's description giving the general time period of activity. I had not considered Magnolia677's concerns about lack of sourcing, but it is a good point. I know it might slow down your project somewhat, but I agree that you should be sure you're not propagating errors. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:26, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you both for the feedback, so it seems there is a bit of a divide though, and I am torn as to what to do (as I am still not sure of how consensus is built exactly, it has always seemed somewhat ambiguous to me). Thus far we have one side saying not to proceed essentially at all, that adding birth/death years is wholly unnecessary. Another side saying that it is very helpful, but that I should take care to consider sourcing and stop using the [when?] tag. I am open to suggestions here, and would love to hear what I should put in its stead (the [when?] tag). I have no problem with doing something else, but would prefer that the community give me some input as to what to do there. As for the decision for proceeding at ALL or not... how do we determine that? I've already completed several entire states New Hampshire and Wyoming, in addition to numerous entire cities, and personally, I see it as a value add, but I can understand the concern around sourcing and I can try and factor that before I add the birth/death year dates on "Notable people". One follow up question though. IF the birth and/or death year is NOT seen to have a source, should I simply NOT carry that over to the "Notable people" list at ALL? Or maybe DO, but use a [citation needed] tag? That would certainly make it much easier on my end when doing hundreds of these at a time. Also, if that is not acceptable either, no worries, but please just offer up a suggested alternative. Last question, IF the birth/death year is not cited on the primary article for a "Notable person", should I REMOVE it from the article as well? Or add a "citation needed" tag to it there? Thanks everyone! Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 16:04, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- I ask also because whatever the "verdict" of the community, I will need to go back and clean up any of the [when?] tags that I have already put out there in the wild etc. And I want to make sure I have an agreed upon "template" before proceeding so that I can possibly "recruit" others to help with this task and we do not encounter resistance as we complete state after state to this standardization. Thanks again! Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 16:11, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- There should be citations that the person was from that city, but it's excessive and not relevant to the topic at hand to have citiations merely for their lifespan. I would expect that to be cited in the biographical article. I think it's less relevant to include that than what the person is known for though. Reywas92Talk 16:26, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- Agree. I didn't make my position clear, which is that the source article should have the dates cited. --Ken Gallager (talk) 16:35, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the bio should have the dates sourced. In some instances, this editor was copying unsourced dates. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- Baseball player and pro golfer articles generally don't have a reference as a IC for the person's birthdate. These person's birthdates can be found at baseballreference.com, a reliable source, or the golfer's tour page....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 00:05, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hi all! I guess the next easiest way to proceed or not would be to get buy in on my format as I have done this already on thousands of entries. Including the entire city of Philadelphia "Notable people" list, the cities of Orlando, every single town and city in the state of New Hampshire, every single town and city in the state of Wyoming, and several other places that I can mention here as requested. I think it seems there is some consensus from the above that it is a worthwhile pursuit to continue adding these birth and death dates, and that the citation/source SHOULD be on the main article. I tend to pull directly from the lead, so that is good enough for me, and is good enough I would argue for the "at a glance" benefit that comes from adding this detail the right of each persons name on each "Notable people" list. I would love some help with this, but I'd be happy to blanket the entire country if no one else wishes to step up , that said, I would love to just make sure that no longer are these being reverted due to some citation issue if there is a lacking component on the main article. If there needs to be a citation or source added for the main article, then I agree that should be added, but that to me is a separate project. Lastly, I think I will try and add some blurb about adding the "birth year" and "death year" as I have been and in the format that I have been at this section (Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#Notable people) if all approve (or majority approve)? Something simple just saying something to the effect of adding it in this basic format (1900–1999), (b. 1900), (c. 1900), etc. and calling out all of the specifics as to when to do one or the other format (knowns and unknowns etc). Do we "vote" on this next? How is consensus ultimately attained? I'm still somewhat new to that part... Thanks all for your feedback! Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 04:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hearing no further concerns, I will adapt the policy of NOT using the [when?] tag immediately as suggested by numerous users, and I will get back to otherwise continuing to add the birth/death year information as normal to all persons I come across in USA towns and cities across the country (beginning by low population and working to higher population states) in the "Notable people" sections. I will also continue with the standardization formatting as I have, and will edit the Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#Notable people section as mentioned previously to reflect this. Lastly, for citations and sourcing, that will need to be left to the primary article, and I will of course NEVER insert anything that is NOT on the primary article on the "Notable people" list, but I will otherwise leave that unsourced ON the "Notable people" list (the lifespan part) as that was deemed "excessive previously by another editor too. Thanks everyone for the feedback, and please feel free to reach out to me on my talk page then if anyone would like to do an "edit-a-thon" with me one one state or another and we can divvy it up together. ♥ Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 20:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Actually, I DID mean to ask... what DO we want to put INSTEAD of the [when?] tag when we DO NOT KNOW the birth or death year of a person? What is normally put in this format? Say when it is a birth year of 1900 but no known death year, or a death year of 1999, but no known birth year? When it is a CIRCA, I of course know what to do, but what about a COMPLETE UNKNOWN? (capitalizations for emphasis only, not "screaming"). Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 20:33, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hearing no further concerns, I will adapt the policy of NOT using the [when?] tag immediately as suggested by numerous users, and I will get back to otherwise continuing to add the birth/death year information as normal to all persons I come across in USA towns and cities across the country (beginning by low population and working to higher population states) in the "Notable people" sections. I will also continue with the standardization formatting as I have, and will edit the Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#Notable people section as mentioned previously to reflect this. Lastly, for citations and sourcing, that will need to be left to the primary article, and I will of course NEVER insert anything that is NOT on the primary article on the "Notable people" list, but I will otherwise leave that unsourced ON the "Notable people" list (the lifespan part) as that was deemed "excessive previously by another editor too. Thanks everyone for the feedback, and please feel free to reach out to me on my talk page then if anyone would like to do an "edit-a-thon" with me one one state or another and we can divvy it up together. ♥ Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 20:31, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Hi all! I guess the next easiest way to proceed or not would be to get buy in on my format as I have done this already on thousands of entries. Including the entire city of Philadelphia "Notable people" list, the cities of Orlando, every single town and city in the state of New Hampshire, every single town and city in the state of Wyoming, and several other places that I can mention here as requested. I think it seems there is some consensus from the above that it is a worthwhile pursuit to continue adding these birth and death dates, and that the citation/source SHOULD be on the main article. I tend to pull directly from the lead, so that is good enough for me, and is good enough I would argue for the "at a glance" benefit that comes from adding this detail the right of each persons name on each "Notable people" list. I would love some help with this, but I'd be happy to blanket the entire country if no one else wishes to step up , that said, I would love to just make sure that no longer are these being reverted due to some citation issue if there is a lacking component on the main article. If there needs to be a citation or source added for the main article, then I agree that should be added, but that to me is a separate project. Lastly, I think I will try and add some blurb about adding the "birth year" and "death year" as I have been and in the format that I have been at this section (Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities/US Guideline#Notable people) if all approve (or majority approve)? Something simple just saying something to the effect of adding it in this basic format (1900–1999), (b. 1900), (c. 1900), etc. and calling out all of the specifics as to when to do one or the other format (knowns and unknowns etc). Do we "vote" on this next? How is consensus ultimately attained? I'm still somewhat new to that part... Thanks all for your feedback! Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 04:04, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Baseball player and pro golfer articles generally don't have a reference as a IC for the person's birthdate. These person's birthdates can be found at baseballreference.com, a reliable source, or the golfer's tour page....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 00:05, 16 November 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, the bio should have the dates sourced. In some instances, this editor was copying unsourced dates. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:50, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- Agree. I didn't make my position clear, which is that the source article should have the dates cited. --Ken Gallager (talk) 16:35, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- Thank you both for the feedback, so it seems there is a bit of a divide though, and I am torn as to what to do (as I am still not sure of how consensus is built exactly, it has always seemed somewhat ambiguous to me). Thus far we have one side saying not to proceed essentially at all, that adding birth/death years is wholly unnecessary. Another side saying that it is very helpful, but that I should take care to consider sourcing and stop using the [when?] tag. I am open to suggestions here, and would love to hear what I should put in its stead (the [when?] tag). I have no problem with doing something else, but would prefer that the community give me some input as to what to do there. As for the decision for proceeding at ALL or not... how do we determine that? I've already completed several entire states New Hampshire and Wyoming, in addition to numerous entire cities, and personally, I see it as a value add, but I can understand the concern around sourcing and I can try and factor that before I add the birth/death year dates on "Notable people". One follow up question though. IF the birth and/or death year is NOT seen to have a source, should I simply NOT carry that over to the "Notable people" list at ALL? Or maybe DO, but use a [citation needed] tag? That would certainly make it much easier on my end when doing hundreds of these at a time. Also, if that is not acceptable either, no worries, but please just offer up a suggested alternative. Last question, IF the birth/death year is not cited on the primary article for a "Notable person", should I REMOVE it from the article as well? Or add a "citation needed" tag to it there? Thanks everyone! Th78blue (They/Them/Theirs • talk) 16:04, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- I think overall that it's a great idea to have the birth and death years in the Notable People sections. It provides an important context for readers who are quickly looking at the list. I will echo Magnolia677's comments on the "When" tag - it doesn't really help the reader to see those comments, and an editor coming through later can easily check the notable person's article to see if dates have been added. Instead, you could perhaps add a short phrase to the person's description giving the general time period of activity. I had not considered Magnolia677's concerns about lack of sourcing, but it is a good point. I know it might slow down your project somewhat, but I agree that you should be sure you're not propagating errors. --Ken Gallager (talk) 13:26, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- @Th78blue: Please stop adding unsourced dates to articles. Also, please stop adding "[when?]" to names in notable people sections that do not have birth and death dates listed; there is no requirement that birth and death dates be added. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:35, 15 November 2021 (UTC)
- I cannot stress eoiugh how extremely obnoxious I find the attempt to plaster this "template" all over articles about places in Alaska:
[1] NOTICE * * * NOTICE * * * NOTICE * * * * * * * * * * * *NOTICE * * * NOTICE * * * NOTICE• Only people who already have a Wikipedia article may appear here. This establishes notability. • A Wikipedia article must exist for anyone to be included in this list, this clearly establishes verifiable notability. • The Wikipedia article itself should mention the person's association with Chefornak, Alaska. • Alphabetical by last name please, within the appropriate category. • Add birth year and death year in the: (b. 1990), (1900–1999), (c. 1950), format when available. Just after the name, and just before career details. • All others will be deleted without further explanation. END OF NOTICE * * * * * * * * * * * * END OF NOTICE * * * * * * * * * * * *END OF NOTICE
I do not think there is broad community support for just robotically adding this and {{dynamic list}} to every single article on a named place.