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:Let me remind you, that this is due to the consensus of the RfC that put in place, and that RfC was due to your bold splits. So even though Dragon Ball (anime) had consensus to keep, it was before the more significant consensus of the RfC was reached. So there's no gaming the system, i'm simply putting the consensus of the RfC into action. Ignoring it, and act like if it never happened would be gaming the system.[[User:Lucia Black|Lucia Black]] ([[User talk:Lucia Black|talk]]) 07:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC) |
:Let me remind you, that this is due to the consensus of the RfC that put in place, and that RfC was due to your bold splits. So even though Dragon Ball (anime) had consensus to keep, it was before the more significant consensus of the RfC was reached. So there's no gaming the system, i'm simply putting the consensus of the RfC into action. Ignoring it, and act like if it never happened would be gaming the system.[[User:Lucia Black|Lucia Black]] ([[User talk:Lucia Black|talk]]) 07:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC) |
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:: Stop making drama for the sake of drama. Do not make issues when there is none. No one's considering doing anything with those articles and I suggest that everyone not act like it has to be split or will be split because something else was. To put Lucia's argument to her classic response [[WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS]]. For a New Year's resolution, I'm going to try and avoid the useless drama that made this year a wash in this space. I suggest everyone seek to avoid such useless drama as well. [[User:ChrisGualtieri|ChrisGualtieri]] ([[User talk:ChrisGualtieri|talk]]) 07:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 07:19, 31 December 2013
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Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/WikiProject used
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Archive or Delete Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Destubification drive
What to do about this? I suggest we just delete it, it isn't worth the archive. DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 08:18, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'd say we archive the project and have it listed under the Departments and work pages heading of our WikiProject template. Since it's such a large category, it would have to be an ongoing effort.
- To even start this drive, we would have to clearly define what makes a Stub-class article turn into a Start-class article. From WP:ANIME/ASSESS:
The article has a usable amount of good content but is weak in many areas, usually in referencing. Quality of the prose may be distinctly unencyclopedic, and MoS compliance non-existent; but the article should satisfy fundamental content policies, such as notability and BLP, and provide enough sources to establish verifiability. No Start-Class article should be in any danger of being speedily deleted.
- I guess during the efforts of this drive, there will be stubs that won't meet WP:GNG - so this drive could also be seen as a deletion spree. Like the first article in this category (1+2=Paradise). Extremepro (talk) 10:56, 7 December 2013 (UTC)
- Given the community has rejected mass deletion and stub or delete is not valid proposition, deleting the drive is best. The stub contest and other events take care of this better than some small AM drive. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:52, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- To be fair, the original goal was not to have it a drive but an open goal to display in the main page just like WP:VG and WP:SE. So when I agreed to the drive it was to be lasting forever. Plus, mass deletion isn't a violation, just highly discouraged.Lucia Black (talk) 11:40, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- Mass deletion is only done under extremely rare circumstances and I only know of two cases in Wikipedia's history. One of them dealing with 6000 algae articles on the grounds that they were placed in entirely wrong taxonomy and could not be fixed. See the whole display at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anybot's_algae_articles, the other was the mass creation of 10000 articles on Chinese villages with nothing more than "X is a village in China." at its core. There is nothing wrong with stubs, but it is dangerous to associate stubs as being bad and seeking their elimination if only to "improve" the appearance of Wikipedia. Afterall, if that was Wikipedia's intent only GA or FA articles would remain and that would also go straight against the ideology of the project. 15:26, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- I associate stub articles with series that aren't notable, or needs to prove it urgently. For the most part, not all manga is notable, even in japan. So a mass deletion-drive might be good if a specific range. Such as series that never made it outside of japan and have no sources, or any spin off media to give it lasting relevancy. So the multi-media series (even if not released outside in Japan) would stay, but all those that are simply an anime or manga series that only in japan, would be deleted. It would be nice considering thats most of the stubs and hard to make notable or prove notability.Lucia Black (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- Do you realize that your conclusion is illogical and inherently damaging to Wikipedia. If not on the grounds that we do not have the editors to improve or even check all the content that exists in the first place? Show me one person who is active and a native level speaker with access to the museums of the national library; let alone willing to do this crazy task. Making one article good at a time is hard enough and I've got more than enough work to last years. We all do. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:09, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- I associate stub articles with series that aren't notable, or needs to prove it urgently. For the most part, not all manga is notable, even in japan. So a mass deletion-drive might be good if a specific range. Such as series that never made it outside of japan and have no sources, or any spin off media to give it lasting relevancy. So the multi-media series (even if not released outside in Japan) would stay, but all those that are simply an anime or manga series that only in japan, would be deleted. It would be nice considering thats most of the stubs and hard to make notable or prove notability.Lucia Black (talk) 21:26, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- Mass deletion is only done under extremely rare circumstances and I only know of two cases in Wikipedia's history. One of them dealing with 6000 algae articles on the grounds that they were placed in entirely wrong taxonomy and could not be fixed. See the whole display at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Anybot's_algae_articles, the other was the mass creation of 10000 articles on Chinese villages with nothing more than "X is a village in China." at its core. There is nothing wrong with stubs, but it is dangerous to associate stubs as being bad and seeking their elimination if only to "improve" the appearance of Wikipedia. Afterall, if that was Wikipedia's intent only GA or FA articles would remain and that would also go straight against the ideology of the project. 15:26, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- To be fair, the original goal was not to have it a drive but an open goal to display in the main page just like WP:VG and WP:SE. So when I agreed to the drive it was to be lasting forever. Plus, mass deletion isn't a violation, just highly discouraged.Lucia Black (talk) 11:40, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- Given the community has rejected mass deletion and stub or delete is not valid proposition, deleting the drive is best. The stub contest and other events take care of this better than some small AM drive. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 04:52, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Yes, there are other stub events to handle this. Do I just treat this like any AFD? DragonZero (Talk · Contribs) 07:37, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- Just to clarify: I'm not in support of a mass deletion drive/spree, rather to take each article on it's own merits. The one-shot or single series articles only in Japan can be notable - with enough Japanese language sources. Extremepro (talk) 10:07, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
- Quality over Quantity. If a stub can't be improved, then it is not-notable. Permastubs should be removed. No one here needs access to the national library, its not a trump card.
- I have my ideals, you have yours. Mine is to improve what can be improved. If there's no chance of an article being fixed anytime soon, and it has notability issues, then its best we AfD them and bring it back when we have the information needed to making it notable. Once deleted, doesn't mean it can't be brought back.
- The only damage I see Chris, is a subjective damage. Removing vast ammount of content? Depends on what's being removed. Well written notable topics? Or scarce articles that don't prove notability.
- We can't save them all and for good reasons. Proving notability shouldn't even be "that" hard. But again, if we were to do such a drive (removing japanese only, single media manga) then we would have a search of reliable japanese sources.Lucia Black (talk) 21:22, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Not all perma-stubs are to be deleted. All winners of the Kodansha Manga Award, Shogakukan Manga Award, Tezuka Osamu Cultural Prize, Manga Taishō, or winners of the following category Category:Anime and manga awards should have articles, but due to their age, and possibly out-of-print status, they will not have more than a lead paragraph and some external links, making them perma-stubs. Extremepro (talk) 04:01, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- All perma-stubs are bad. Why keep articles that aren't notable? A single awward doesn't make a series last. There has to be more than that such as if it ever had a spin-off or adaptation. I think you just want to keep them and excusing yourself (in other words you're in denial).Lucia Black (talk) 06:05, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- Not all perma-stubs are to be deleted. All winners of the Kodansha Manga Award, Shogakukan Manga Award, Tezuka Osamu Cultural Prize, Manga Taishō, or winners of the following category Category:Anime and manga awards should have articles, but due to their age, and possibly out-of-print status, they will not have more than a lead paragraph and some external links, making them perma-stubs. Extremepro (talk) 04:01, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
- We can't save them all and for good reasons. Proving notability shouldn't even be "that" hard. But again, if we were to do such a drive (removing japanese only, single media manga) then we would have a search of reliable japanese sources.Lucia Black (talk) 21:22, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
I was just glancing at the stub articles after noticing this discussion. One thing that stood out is that there were some episode lists that are classified as stub class. Shouldn't all of those be changed to "list" class regardless of quality? Calathan (talk) 22:39, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- That's what I was doing.Lucia Black (talk) 01:58, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
We need more sources
most of what we have focus only on news rather than reviews, especially on manga information. it starts to get scarce. I was looking at WP:VG/RLand they appear to have a good format going for them. For magazines, most of them post the series in what series that specific magazine issue covers so it makes it easier for others who are interested in a specific topic, they would be able to find any form of sourcing. this helps greatly in improving even not-so-well known series as well. We should definitely adapt the same format when it comes to references.
On another note, it would also be great to find more mainstream manga reviews of japan. i'm not familiar with what readers follow when it comes to manga. Anime would be good too.Lucia Black (talk) 21:21, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- We already have this: Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Reference Library.
- We also have this: Wikipedia:WikiProject Anime and manga/Magazines and the articles that are covered by the specific issue of the magazine is in the "subject archive" of the magazine (most don't have it). Extremepro (talk) 21:36, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- its not the same setup that WP:VG has it. its much more accesssible by subject. it should be more public on the subject it covers.Lucia Black (talk) 21:56, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
- Talking about sources there is a big problem. The archives of Animerica were deleted for some reason.Tintor2 (talk) 01:06, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, that's definitely a big problem. Also, Ex.org is doing some maintenance and none of their reviews come up. Did anyone archive their work? Well, either way, we're losing sources and I don't know how to determine which are reliable. Is there any reliable sources that review TV series and cover anime/manga? I feel part of the problem is looking for RS that cover anime/manga exclusively.Lucia Black (talk) 01:20, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- With regards to Animerica - Archive.is archived some of the Wayback Machine archives Personally, I like using archive.is as it bypasses the robot.txt document to take a screenshot of the page as well as on-demand archival. Extremepro (talk) 01:25, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm having a problem with working on Kamille Bidan and Heero Yuy. While I've managed to find Japanese sources that note how popular they are, critical reception has been hard to find. For Kamille I only have some mania.com articles while Wing reviews barely focus on the characters. I've previously managed to work in the reception of other Gundam characters like Amuro Ray, Kira Yamato and Setsuna F. Seiei but I'm stuck with these two.Tintor2 (talk) 13:56, 19 December 2013 (UTC)
RFC closed.
The RFC on franchise coverage has been closed. Here's the full summary of the closure.
“ | I was going to close this yesterday, but I wanted to give this another read this morning to see if there was any fair way to move forward on how best to approach larger A&M-related articles in the usual case where adaptations follow a manga series. Editors were opposed to implementing either a hard-line "one-article per franchise" or a "one article for each adaptation" rule, which leaves us with consensus to make such splitting or consolidation decisions on a case-by-case basis. I'll note that most editors seem to be in agreement in that for most manga-to-adaptation franchises, a single article usually suffices.
The subsequent challenge was to determine the criteria by which such decisions could be made, or even considered. "Uniqueness" was a term used by some, which while a fair approach, could use some definition. A number of parameters were suggested: Prose size, anime series length, discussion of production for the adapation, the degree of novel content in the anime series compared to the manga, and others. Some of these parameters seem less helpful. For instance, the number of episodes alone seems unhelpful because the studio may simply have a ton of money to create numerous episodes, none of which are substantially novel (e.g. some may be filler/recap episodes). Some may be more instructive though-- differences in major story arcs (i.e. ones worth discussing per the Manual of Style and WP:PLOTSUM and/or significant coverage of the process and news about production of the adaptation.) There was reluctance from editors to agree to any specific metrics on any of these parameters, but I think some principles proposed here are soundly within policy and should be the focus of future discussions in this area:
In point #2, nontrivial is meant to refer to things like noncritical differences in plot, as described by many editors here. I realize this has long been a contentious topic area, and I hope this discussion will be helpful to better organize and present A&M content on Wikipedia for the sake of our readers. Editors are welcome to contact me on my talk page with questions or concerns about this close. I, JethroBT drop me a line 20:41, 17 December 2013 (UTC) |
” |
I hope this summarizes the whole thing about franchise coverages here. If there are no objections we should edit WP:MOSANIME to reflect that change. Okay? Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:10, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't object to this standard. But I hope there's no loopholes.Lucia Black (talk) 23:40, 17 December 2013 (UTC)
MOSAM cannot contain this as MOSAM is a manual of style, not a notability guideline. It should be listed on the Wikiproject page. The RFC before stated that MOSAM cannot contain such a guideline and the other discussions pointed to WP:POLICY as stating that a manual of style should be strictly a manual of style. Though I think the problem is resolved, the task comes to cleaning, organizing and preparing the data for the content building. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:18, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- But even if MOSAM is a manual of style, I think the closing summary and new consensus still stands regarding the demerging of articles, therefore the previous RFC consensus is moot and I think we should implement this change as soon as possible. My point on this here is that the two points bolded in the closing should be incorporated somewhere in the article as the points are within policy. Also, the consensus has been determined that "make such splitting or consolidation decisions on a case-by-case basis." If you have problems with the closure, please take it up with I JethroBT on how to present it. I think this RFC discussion has already been settled, therefore I think that the previous RFC is meaningless. I have no problems with mentioning the consensus anywhere. I personally think we should split articles on a case by case basis. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:24, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It is not the closure, but the simple fact that we've had 2 RFCs on the matter, including the VPP discussion and lengthy MOSAM discussions about notability being outside the purposes of that page - its the reason why the entire problem began in the first place. I think its entirely backwards to overturn a much more specific and clear cut decision for the purposes of making a manual of style hold notability related matters and not either place them into their own page as suggested prior or to place them on the Wikiproject's page. I'm happy that articles like Dragon Ball Z can exist without being repeated blank and redirected or dropped into userspace to bypass AFDing, despite WP:USERFY#NO. Don't confuse my response on its placement and usage as some disagreement about the end result - after all, it was more than I had hoped for and I am quite pleased by it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- I understand most of your points, Chris, and at least we finally got the dispute resolved when I JethroBT closed the RFC. I was a bit impressed by what he did. We came to some sort of an agreement on this one here. I personally oppose splitting articles if it's just a repetition of the plot and characters from their series, but I support a separate article if there are reliable sources and noncritical differences in the plot summaries.
- Here are a couple examples using the points that were in the RFC's closing summary: In some cases, if "a substantial amount of nontrivial and reliably-sourced content can be written about an adaptation that distinguishes it from its respective manga series, a separate article on the adaptation is recommended." That's what happened to Dragon Ball Z and Bleach (anime), for example. But in articles like Fullmetal Alchemist, Fairy Tail, and Naruto, for example, the adaptations are "a substantial reflection of the plot and characters of its respective manga series, it probably does not require a separate article." I hope this makes sense of what I'm talking about here. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 05:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It is not the closure, but the simple fact that we've had 2 RFCs on the matter, including the VPP discussion and lengthy MOSAM discussions about notability being outside the purposes of that page - its the reason why the entire problem began in the first place. I think its entirely backwards to overturn a much more specific and clear cut decision for the purposes of making a manual of style hold notability related matters and not either place them into their own page as suggested prior or to place them on the Wikiproject's page. I'm happy that articles like Dragon Ball Z can exist without being repeated blank and redirected or dropped into userspace to bypass AFDing, despite WP:USERFY#NO. Don't confuse my response on its placement and usage as some disagreement about the end result - after all, it was more than I had hoped for and I am quite pleased by it. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:35, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
Actually Bleach (anime) is still being disputed. And also bleach is no different from Naruto. Dragon Ball Z is an edge case because english-regions recognize Dragon Ball Z before Dragon Ball alltogether.Lucia Black (talk) 05:57, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- So a multi-billion dollar success is an edge case to you? Why do I even bother with this area... ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:44, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Its an edge case because its success outweights the original. The series can't be divided normally like others where Dragon Ball would cover its manga and anime adaptations. The only reason why we contested to the split is because there's going to be confusion of how to handle the split. Does DBZ contain only the anime? Or the anime and second half of the manga? Its a difficult situation even now.
- Still @Sjones23:, the RfC was raised because of bold splits such as Bleach. So it would be great to analyze the series first, before saying it was well deserved. If Bleach deserves a split, then by default of more popular series, Naruto and One Piece aswell.Lucia Black (talk) 15:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
- Indeed. I understand where you are coming from with your points and agree with your idea, Lucia. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 19:38, 27 December 2013 (UTC)
- Still @Sjones23:, the RfC was raised because of bold splits such as Bleach. So it would be great to analyze the series first, before saying it was well deserved. If Bleach deserves a split, then by default of more popular series, Naruto and One Piece aswell.Lucia Black (talk) 15:43, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
The International Best Comics Poll - The Hooded Utilitarian
The Hooded Utilitarian has hosted an international poll on the top 115 comics (arguably more American-centric, with a few manga) here
But what I found interesting was: whilst most of the critics just chose their own 10 best, some of the critics gave reasons to their choice: eg. Matt Thorn: partial contributor listing.
Finally, all the contributors had their credentials listed along with their top 10 lists, maybe we can find more individual RS resources from this massive list of critics. Extremepro (talk) 03:35, 21 December 2013 (UTC)
Finnish site Animeleht.fi RS?
This Finnish site has reviews on it - but I'm not sure whether it can be considered RS. The main reason to question this site is that the publisher's website looks like a forum and this review, if proven RS, could be used to cite the publisher. Extremepro (talk) 06:53, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- The publisher's website has a forum. How is that related to proving RS? --Mika1h (talk) 11:27, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
- Bad wording - I meant if the Finnish review was proven RS, then I can use the review to cite that the book was licensed in Finland and would not have to cite the publisher's forum. Extremepro (talk) 11:58, 22 December 2013 (UTC)
New discussion
Just thought I'd let everybody know about this discussion I'm having, regarding Dragon Ball's continuity. Sarujo (talk) 07:59, 30 December 2013 (UTC)
Post-RfC discussion and issues that need to be covered
So now that we decided to do so, we have a few articles that we need to consider or make an example of
- Dragon Ball (anime)
- Bleach (anime) which will be the outcome of the following articles:
This is a very serious issue, and i feel it wont die down, until we use the consensus of the RfC to use.Lucia Black (talk) 02:13, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Dragon Ball (anime)
Most of the information is made up entirely of DVD releases and the rest is easily mergable back. its not a strong split at all, even for the new standards that we have.Lucia Black (talk) 02:28, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Merge If the only main things are DVD releases than it should be merged back, ignore personal opinions here and think of what would be a greater potential gain. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:06, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Bleach (anime) (consequently Naruto, and One Piece)
- Naruto is broken down into two anime series, Naruto the original series, and Naruto: Shippuden. The episode lists I feel would stay in place while the only other info that could be merged out looks to be again episode release information. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:10, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
I ask because it falls close to both Dragon Ball/Z situation and Bleach for success.Lucia Black (talk) 03:15, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
Comment - Stop trying to the game the system Lucia. I am sick of it. I'm not spending more than 10 minutes dealing with this. Wikipedia needs proper coverage and the more time spent talking (uselessly) the less good work could be done. We barely cover the most notable of all works. Here you are actually advocating the reduction and reducing of sourced content because its not "perfect". If you are not going to fix the problems than I'll go to Arbcom and ask for general sanctions on the entire editing space because I am not dealing with whatever made-up problem that pops into your head. Naruto and One Piece are not discussions and never have been - this is just drama. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 06:58, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- One Piece and Naruto never have been a discussion, because you never boldly split them. But, if Bleach anime merits its own article, then by default more popular series such as One piece and Naruto also fall in the same general area. We have to be consistent with the splitting, which is why i brought them in.
- Let me remind you, that this is due to the consensus of the RfC that put in place, and that RfC was due to your bold splits. So even though Dragon Ball (anime) had consensus to keep, it was before the more significant consensus of the RfC was reached. So there's no gaming the system, i'm simply putting the consensus of the RfC into action. Ignoring it, and act like if it never happened would be gaming the system.Lucia Black (talk) 07:12, 31 December 2013 (UTC)
- Stop making drama for the sake of drama. Do not make issues when there is none. No one's considering doing anything with those articles and I suggest that everyone not act like it has to be split or will be split because something else was. To put Lucia's argument to her classic response WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. For a New Year's resolution, I'm going to try and avoid the useless drama that made this year a wash in this space. I suggest everyone seek to avoid such useless drama as well. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 07:19, 31 December 2013 (UTC)