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::It was argued within a 'delete'-vote that otherwise non-notable people could certainly attain notability through their actions during the event, so that's not the issue. The issue is that a 'keep'-vote listed several other articles that currently have lists of victims names, and attempted to use this as a supporting fact to 'keep' as per WP:OSE. The fact that these other lists even exist indicates that wp:notmemorial may not be clear in in conveying it's message. One would think it better to address the issue here, once and for all, to both address the current articles as well as prevent further instances of this occurring. Better than to chase down every one with a separate AfD, no? - ''[[User: Thewolfchild|<sup>the</sup>'''<big><em style="font-family:Matisse itc;color:red">WOLF</em></big>'''<small>child</small>]]'' 08:37, 20 December 2015 (UTC) |
::It was argued within a 'delete'-vote that otherwise non-notable people could certainly attain notability through their actions during the event, so that's not the issue. The issue is that a 'keep'-vote listed several other articles that currently have lists of victims names, and attempted to use this as a supporting fact to 'keep' as per WP:OSE. The fact that these other lists even exist indicates that wp:notmemorial may not be clear in in conveying it's message. One would think it better to address the issue here, once and for all, to both address the current articles as well as prevent further instances of this occurring. Better than to chase down every one with a separate AfD, no? - ''[[User: Thewolfchild|<sup>the</sup>'''<big><em style="font-family:Matisse itc;color:red">WOLF</em></big>'''<small>child</small>]]'' 08:37, 20 December 2015 (UTC) |
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:::Agree it would be nice to be consistent, for a long time aircraft accidents dont list victims unless they are otherwise notable which is indicated by them having a stand-alone article before the event or would meet the reequirements for a stand-alone article. It would be nice if this or something similar was clearer for inclusion in incident articles. The current wording can give the impression it is talking about stand-alone articles. I also accept them Masem's point that some individuals may be of note due to what they did during an incident so they could be included in a narrative but not a list of victims. [[User:MilborneOne|MilborneOne]] ([[User talk:MilborneOne|talk]]) 16:05, 20 December 2015 (UTC) |
:::Agree it would be nice to be consistent, for a long time aircraft accidents dont list victims unless they are otherwise notable which is indicated by them having a stand-alone article before the event or would meet the reequirements for a stand-alone article. It would be nice if this or something similar was clearer for inclusion in incident articles. The current wording can give the impression it is talking about stand-alone articles. I also accept them Masem's point that some individuals may be of note due to what they did during an incident so they could be included in a narrative but not a list of victims. [[User:MilborneOne|MilborneOne]] ([[User talk:MilborneOne|talk]]) 16:05, 20 December 2015 (UTC) |
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== Wikipedia is not encyclopedia == |
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The most pointless rule introduced by the Wikipedia founders is: everyone possess some knowledge therefore everyone can contribute. Since there is no limits to this rule and no way to curb those who think they know what they, in fact, do not know, the contributed texts are suffering from ignorance and distortions, sometimes contributed intentionally. |
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Then we have so-called consensus. It allows any group of less or more organized attackers to derail any serious effort to commit true knowledge if such knowledge is what the attackers do not want to see. |
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It's impossible to defend any serious and valuable commits to any Wikipedia article if the contributor has against himself the attackers mentioned above.--[[User:X2Faces|X2Faces]] ([[User talk:X2Faces|talk]]) 17:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC) |
Revision as of 17:50, 20 December 2015
Creation of WP:Prices
I created WP:Prices to aggregate discussion about including prices into Wikipedia. Previously this was a redirect to Wikipedia:What_Wikipedia_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_a_directory. I think there has been enough discussion on this topic to justify centralizing whatever has been said. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:06, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I think that it's pretty clear here and don't see any reason to change it. Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:34, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- I do think we need to have a bit more time to develop what would be a separate page on WP:Prices (what is appropriate advice and all that), and agree that right now WP:Prices should redirect to here. I'm not against a guideline or essay about more specific advise but we need to have consensus on that. --MASEM (t) 17:38, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
- (EC) Please go ahead and develop but don't water it down!
- BTW, the sentence "5. Sales catalogues. An article should not include product pricing or availability information unless there is a source and a justified reason for the mention." really does cover it all on prices (correct me if I'm wrong) but I would include "product lists or availability" to make it "5. Sales catalogues. An article should not include product pricing, product lists or availability information unless there is a source and a justified reason for the mention." It might seem like "product lists" is redundant, but there are tons of product lists in Wikipedia, see e.g. Camel (cigarettes) (but I'll go change that). It really comes down to WP:NOADS, giving a product or price list is just a form of advertisement. Smallbones(smalltalk) 17:42, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
You missed an important point why prices have no place in wikipedia: they are subject to change with time; they depend on country. It is an unencyclopedic burden to maintain the correctness of this data, which zillions of non-particular numbers would be extremely vulnerable to vandalism. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:07, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
Also the weasel wording "justified reason" must be cast into clear wikipedia concepts. Otherwise this guideline will generate even more bickering and pressure, both from big-corp shills and hype-hungry startups. Staszek Lem (talk) 01:07, 6 October 2015 (UTC)
I support creating an essay on this but I think WP:Prices is an unsuitable location for it as users linking to it are assuming it backs up the WWIN point; I'd prefer a "See also" hatnote at Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not a directory. However, I think a separate essay to help document such issues is helpful. --Rubbish computer 16:49, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
discussion on the application of WP:CRYSTAL
People are welcome to join a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Film#Joy_.28film.29 about the application of WP:CRYSTAL. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:19, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
Not a free-media center?
I am not sure what a "free media center" is supposed to mean when you say "Wikipedia is not ... a free-media center" in this page in a nutshell section. Does "free-media" refer to free content media, media available free of charge, media enjoying freedom of the press, or anything else? I would appreciate clarification.--Dwy (talk) 10:23, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- While we encourage free content as in freely licensed content, we are not a place to host large quantities of free content created by others. Instead, we have Commons for more free media, and Wikisource for free text works. --MASEM (t) 12:45, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- I looked into the page and see that it is indeed confusing. The policy speaks of media repository, and this term must be used in the "Nutshell", for easy reference. Fixed. Now I hope user:Dwy will find a more detailed answer right in the policy. Staszek Lem (talk) 23:27, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you, MASEM and Staszek Lem. Now I find the text of the policy much easier to follow and understand.--Dwy (talk) 05:38, 14 November 2015 (UTC)
Clarity by removing a sentence
In the section Wikipedia is not a blog, Web hosting service, social networking service, or memorial site there is a sentence Humorous pages that refer to Wikipedia in some way may be created in an appropriate namespace, however.
This advice reflects an earlier time in Wikipedia's history when it wasn't unusual for an editor to create a humor page. But I can't recall the last time I came across one that was written in the past few years and I think that most editors consulting this policy will be unfamiliar with the reference to humorous pages. I believe this sentence can be removed without altering the guidance of the section and preventing new editors from being confused on what is or isn't allowable content. Liz Read! Talk! 15:44, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
- If that's removed, someone will attempt to delete everything in Category:Wikipedia humor. The point is that people should not use Wikipedia to post their personal thoughts on stuff, except that personal thoughts on Wikipedia may be ok, and definitely are ok if good humor and/or insight are included. Johnuniq (talk) 23:50, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
We are social
People sometimes quote wp:not as to pretend there is not a single social aspect to Wikipedia. We are not a social network, but I'd sure hope that we are not anti social. I tend to talk to people, and I like to tell people what I work on, which is based on my motivation to collaborate with other people. Out of those experiences I've even found a group of real life friends that I meet with regularly (you could call it a 'social network').
I was thinking of the following change:
- The focus of user pages should not be social networking, or amusement, but rather providing a foundation for effective and social collaboration.
To me this is natural (implied by collaboration) and the 4th pillar supports this social aspect of the Wikipedia in my opinion.
However the amount of times people try to use this part of the policy to imply that we should all be some sort of robots makes me think we should make this balance more explicit. It is about the difference between a social network site and a collaboration site, not social vs anti-social. Both websites types have plenty of both social and anti-social interactions. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 11:01, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- That would insert "and social" in the second-last sentence of the first point at not...social networking service? While I agree with what you say, that change seems a bit subtle, and I doubt its meaning would be understood by those who can't already grasp the difference between sociable collaboration and automated editing. The end of that section points to WP:User pages—that might be the page to spell out anything needed? Johnuniq (talk) 23:23, 18 December 2015 (UTC)
- Hi. It'd be more helpful if you actually gave us an example of those people. But we actually have a policy that says Wikipedians are very social creatures: Wikipedia:Civility. It demands observing rules of social conduct and resolving the disputes in a social fashion: through consensus. People should not come here to socialize. But people who come here to edit article are required to be sociable.
- Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 19:19, 19 December 2015 (UTC)
Change needed?
In light of consensus at a recent AfD: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Victims of the November 2015 Paris attacks, should we perhaps add something to WP:NOTMEMORIAL to address this issue? It seems several articles about mass-casualty events have had lists of victims names added, people who though they had the misfortune to be injured or killed in a bombing or shooting, are otherwise not notable. While some people feel these people "deserve" to me mentioned (and remembered), the community has spoken, and an encyclopaedia is not the place for this. Thoughts? - theWOLFchild 03:40, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- We would need more than just the result of the AFD to make a stronger statement, though I fully agree that in general, the death of a number of people at the same time, unless their individual deaths were notable, means that listing them all would violate the spirit of NOTMEMORIAL. For a counterpoint, for example, in the Sandy Hook shooting, thre were some individuals that were killed but that were known their actions were critical to the event, and of course this is not to suppress their names in describing how the event played out. --MASEM (t) 03:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- It was argued within a 'delete'-vote that otherwise non-notable people could certainly attain notability through their actions during the event, so that's not the issue. The issue is that a 'keep'-vote listed several other articles that currently have lists of victims names, and attempted to use this as a supporting fact to 'keep' as per WP:OSE. The fact that these other lists even exist indicates that wp:notmemorial may not be clear in in conveying it's message. One would think it better to address the issue here, once and for all, to both address the current articles as well as prevent further instances of this occurring. Better than to chase down every one with a separate AfD, no? - theWOLFchild 08:37, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- Agree it would be nice to be consistent, for a long time aircraft accidents dont list victims unless they are otherwise notable which is indicated by them having a stand-alone article before the event or would meet the reequirements for a stand-alone article. It would be nice if this or something similar was clearer for inclusion in incident articles. The current wording can give the impression it is talking about stand-alone articles. I also accept them Masem's point that some individuals may be of note due to what they did during an incident so they could be included in a narrative but not a list of victims. MilborneOne (talk) 16:05, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
- It was argued within a 'delete'-vote that otherwise non-notable people could certainly attain notability through their actions during the event, so that's not the issue. The issue is that a 'keep'-vote listed several other articles that currently have lists of victims names, and attempted to use this as a supporting fact to 'keep' as per WP:OSE. The fact that these other lists even exist indicates that wp:notmemorial may not be clear in in conveying it's message. One would think it better to address the issue here, once and for all, to both address the current articles as well as prevent further instances of this occurring. Better than to chase down every one with a separate AfD, no? - theWOLFchild 08:37, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not encyclopedia
The most pointless rule introduced by the Wikipedia founders is: everyone possess some knowledge therefore everyone can contribute. Since there is no limits to this rule and no way to curb those who think they know what they, in fact, do not know, the contributed texts are suffering from ignorance and distortions, sometimes contributed intentionally.
Then we have so-called consensus. It allows any group of less or more organized attackers to derail any serious effort to commit true knowledge if such knowledge is what the attackers do not want to see.
It's impossible to defend any serious and valuable commits to any Wikipedia article if the contributor has against himself the attackers mentioned above.--X2Faces (talk) 17:50, 20 December 2015 (UTC)