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*Concerns: this policy should not generate arguments, that assume any source in particular is "reliable," nor arguments that contravene the universal consensus that articles should be based primarily on "secondary sources." Moreover, it is not clear to me whether our guidance on "Citing" or on "Identifying reliable sources" have developed consensus conventions on how to identify, for example, the "authentic" recording (compare, with a book we have the ISBN number). Citing is a problem because it does not seem good enough to just say watch that two hour movie (or even that ten minute video), or listen to that thirteen hours of tape (an official transcript would help as would official time-stamps, but again that goes back to identifying the "official" copy). Sometimes it's just better to say less per [[WP:BEANS]], when we are thinking theoretically, and on the high plain of general policy. Also, as noted above, this section policy should be written in the positive, because the positive covers more than the particular instance and guides better. but if we need the negative for emphasis something like: "Articles may be based entirely (or in part) on offline reliable sources; there is no general requirement that all or any sources for an article be available online." [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC) |
*Concerns: this policy should not generate arguments, that assume any source in particular is "reliable," nor arguments that contravene the universal consensus that articles should be based primarily on "secondary sources." Moreover, it is not clear to me whether our guidance on "Citing" or on "Identifying reliable sources" have developed consensus conventions on how to identify, for example, the "authentic" recording (compare, with a book we have the ISBN number). Citing is a problem because it does not seem good enough to just say watch that two hour movie (or even that ten minute video), or listen to that thirteen hours of tape (an official transcript would help as would official time-stamps, but again that goes back to identifying the "official" copy). Sometimes it's just better to say less per [[WP:BEANS]], when we are thinking theoretically, and on the high plain of general policy. Also, as noted above, this section policy should be written in the positive, because the positive covers more than the particular instance and guides better. but if we need the negative for emphasis something like: "Articles may be based entirely (or in part) on offline reliable sources; there is no general requirement that all or any sources for an article be available online." [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 15:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC) |
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:I find it ridiculous that there '''is''' a serious problem that has been identified, and because a few don't want policy to '''ever''' be changed we are stuck with a conservative non-changing policy. There is a problem with the way the policy has been worded all this time, as identified by What and Blueboar, and yet we are back to having the policy state almost exactly what it was saying, despite Alanscottwalker's claim "Blueboar's was better"... Blueboar's last edit put it back to the original with barely any changes, so in effect Alan is stating there is no problem. Ridiculous. I guess we can add Alan to the list of users we can contact to come to the RS/N to explain over and over to new users every month that offline sources are ok.[[User:Camelbinky|Camelbinky]] ([[User talk:Camelbinky|talk]]) 02:56, 20 July 2013 (UTC) |
:I find it ridiculous that there '''is''' a serious problem that has been identified, and because a few don't want policy to '''ever''' be changed we are stuck with a conservative non-changing policy. There is a problem with the way the policy has been worded all this time, as identified by What and Blueboar, and yet we are back to having the policy state almost exactly what it was saying, despite Alanscottwalker's claim "Blueboar's was better"... Blueboar's last edit put it back to the original with barely any changes, so in effect Alan is stating there is no problem. Ridiculous. I guess we can add Alan to the list of users we can contact to come to the RS/N to explain over and over to new users every month that offline sources are ok.[[User:Camelbinky|Camelbinky]] ([[User talk:Camelbinky|talk]]) 02:56, 20 July 2013 (UTC) |
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::Your attacks on other editors as in one of your recent edit summaries [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVerifiability&diff=564987045&oldid=564259767] suggests that you should reconsider being anywhere near a policy page or a help page. Of course, it's the consensus of everyone that changes to policy need to be conservative, because of unintended consequences. Blueboar's edit is better and clearer -- much better and has taken in the concerns of multiple editors, including Blueboar. That's how we do things, here. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 11:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC) |
::Your attacks on other editors as in one of your recent edit summaries [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AVerifiability&diff=564987045&oldid=564259767] suggests that you should reconsider being anywhere near a policy page or a help page. Of course, it's the consensus of everyone that changes to policy need to be conservative, because of unintended consequences (read the "stability is paramount" instruction at the top of this page). Blueboar's edit is better and clearer -- much better and has taken in the concerns of multiple editors, including Blueboar. That's how we do things, here. [[User:Alanscottwalker|Alanscottwalker]] ([[User talk:Alanscottwalker|talk]]) 11:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC) |
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== Reliable source...but about a third party? == |
== Reliable source...but about a third party? == |
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Notice of a discussion entitled "Restoring challenged material without citations"
I draw people's attention to this discussion, where A Quest for Knowledge shows that he doesn't understand his obligations on this topic with regard to WP:BURDEN.—Kww(talk) 18:50, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
- Above post is quite vindictive, I've read the linked discussion, and I agree with Quest's conclusion of Kww's baseless threats in that discussion. Given it has nothing to do with this section is it ok to strike or remove Kww's statement?Camelbinky (talk) 19:30, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
- It's specifically about A Quest For Knowledge's behaviour with regards to this particular discussion, where he twice restored unsourced material after it was challenged. There's nothing baseless or vindictive in my comments.—Kww(talk) 19:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
- It's a clear refusal to follow a core policy, but we need less drama here, not more. Given the choice between fixing the general case (ie. people disagree on the applicability of WP:BURDEN) that affects millions of pieces of content, or enforcement on one specific piece of content, I'd rather we focus on the former. Disagreements over policy and guidelines can become bitter and entrenched; let's try to mitigate that. bobrayner (talk) 13:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
- Conduct issue, belongs on a conduct-related noticeboard rather than here. There's a relatively similar incident in my own recent editing history, where I felt (and feel) angry about being "forced" to provide a source before an editor would "permit" me to restore the obviously-verifiable consensus text (and the AfD closer was no bloody help either).
The general principle is that WP:BURDEN could potentially be used for griefing. In order to avoid that, where it's alleged that WP:BURDEN hasn't been used correctly, it's best to get a third opinion rather than for two users to lock horns in an unproductive way.—S Marshall T/C 15:54, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
- I would say the best thing to do is not argue about it at all. If the material is really so verifiable, it should take little time and effort to find the requested source and slap it into the article. Calling in a third party simply continues the aggravation and debate... and will probably take a lot more time and energy than it would to simply supply the source. Let the idiot have his petty victory... just supply the source. Blueboar (talk) 02:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- There is at least one article I watch where I remove uncited entries in the list of examples on sight. They are inevitably drive-by edits by people who don't know what they're talking about. If there is any question as to whether the example is reasonable, I'll do a very cursory check; but usually it's not worth it to do so. If I didn't do this, the article would fill up with inaccurate examples. Now, for these residence examples I'm generally willing to take our own article as sufficient basis for inclusion; but if our article didn't mention such residence, I'd expect a citation and wouldn't feel bad about deleting the entry if it were lacking, since my assumption would be that the claim probably isn't true in that case. Mangoe (talk) 14:27, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- I would say the best thing to do is not argue about it at all. If the material is really so verifiable, it should take little time and effort to find the requested source and slap it into the article. Calling in a third party simply continues the aggravation and debate... and will probably take a lot more time and energy than it would to simply supply the source. Let the idiot have his petty victory... just supply the source. Blueboar (talk) 02:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- Conduct issue, belongs on a conduct-related noticeboard rather than here. There's a relatively similar incident in my own recent editing history, where I felt (and feel) angry about being "forced" to provide a source before an editor would "permit" me to restore the obviously-verifiable consensus text (and the AfD closer was no bloody help either).
- It's a clear refusal to follow a core policy, but we need less drama here, not more. Given the choice between fixing the general case (ie. people disagree on the applicability of WP:BURDEN) that affects millions of pieces of content, or enforcement on one specific piece of content, I'd rather we focus on the former. Disagreements over policy and guidelines can become bitter and entrenched; let's try to mitigate that. bobrayner (talk) 13:56, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
- It's specifically about A Quest For Knowledge's behaviour with regards to this particular discussion, where he twice restored unsourced material after it was challenged. There's nothing baseless or vindictive in my comments.—Kww(talk) 19:38, 2 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with the assessment that this discussion as initially stated does not belong on this page. There is a general problem across Wikipedia that talk page themselves need talk pages, which is where this discussion IMO should be refactored. Unscintillating (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
- On the one hand, we need more admins supporting our WP:V policy. On the other, I think the policy issues here are not clear. Unscintillating (talk) 14:24, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Do section tags constitute a challenge to a list of prominent people?
- Another point in the Elizabethtown, KY discussion is, what constitutes a challenge, [WP:CHALLENGE], for a list of prominent people? This issue started with a section tag {{Unreferenced section|date=March 2010}}. But looking at the diff just before the material was removed shows that the tag was falsifiable, the section had a reference. That one reference would be a reason to remove the tag if the paragraph were prose. Yet, everyone realizes almost without thinking that that one reference doesn't suffice, so why then does the one section tag suffice? I would say that the answer is that it doesn't, that the remedy in this case is to remove the section tag as too vague, and note that individual {{citation needed}} tags provide clarity. IMO we have seen in the subsequent example the clear benefit of using individual {{citation needed}} tags. Unscintillating (talk) 15:14, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
- Um... is there a tag for "this section needs more sources?". My guess is that the person who added the "unreferenced section" tag simply chose one that came close to explaining the problem (which was that a lot of the information was not properly referenced).
- But let's not get hung up on trivial technicalities ... what ever the original tag should have been... the one that actually was placed in the article did what it was supposed to do. It alerted other editors to a problem that needed fixing, and we worked together as a community to fix it. All the information in the tagged section is now properly sourced. The system actually works. Blueboar (talk) 02:31, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- If you think this is a "trivial technicality" then I think that you are completely missing the big picture here. Unscintillating (talk) 02:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- On other articles I've come across various problems with lists (ie. some entries are sourced and some aren't; some entries may be OR or pointy or misleading; and other variations on the theme) and none of our existing warning templates was a perfect fit. I have often toyed with the idea of creating a couple of more specific tags for lists with problems...
- We also need to bear in mind that articles are dynamic. If a list is tagged as unsourced and somebody subsequently fixes that problem for some entries, that's great news for those entries but the rest of the list still has the original problem. Also, other editors may visit in the meantime and add or remove individual entries, with or without sources. If a list as a whole suffers from chronic sourcing problems, simply adding {{citation needed}} tags to each new entry is like using a bucket chain to fix a burst dam. If the community is unable or unwilling to enforce WP:V, the least we could do is have an appropriate warning template for the list as the whole. bobrayner (talk) 11:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see what the issue is here... we started with a section that was almost completely unreferenced, so someone added an "unreferenced section" tag. Now, technically, the tag was wrong (one of the entries did have a source)... however, since the rest of the section was completely unreferenced, and since we don't have a tag for "Almost completely unreferenced section" the tag was close enough to being correct that I find the difference trivial. More importantly, the tag did want it was supposed to do... it alerted editors to a problem with the section... so we could WP:FIXTHEPROBLEM.
- Which we did... I was able to initiate a partial fix (I added sources to a few of the entries, per WP:BURDEN)... and that partial fix made the broad "section" based tag obsolete ... so I removed it, and narrowed the challenge by leaving individual "cn" tags on the entries that still needed sources. This change allowed AQFK to focus on finding and adding sources for the remainder... which he did (also per WP:BURDEN). He was not able to find a source for one entry, and he removed it (Again per WP:BURDEN]].
- All of this is how the system is supposed to work. A problem was highlighted, discussed, identified and fixed. No more problem. So why are we continuing to discuss it? You are obviously upset about something that occurred during the process, but I don't understand what you are upset about. Blueboar (talk) 16:59, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- My problems with this issue is that:
- There was apparently no good faith attempt at finding sources. Anyone can use Google to find sources, but apparently nobody bothered trying. WP:PRESERVE says that you're supposed to try to find sources yourself. WP:PRESERVE is a Wikipedia:Editing policy and it cannot be ignored without a good reason.
- No specific reason for challenging the content was ever given. Did anyone say that the content was incorrect? No. Did anyone say that the content was unverifiable? No. Did the content end up being correct and verifiable? Yes. So what was the reason for the challenge?
- WP:BRD says that anyone can be bold in changing content, but if someone reverts, you need to seek consensus on the article talk page. While WP:BRD is not official policy, WP:CONSENSUS is. Why was this policy ignored?
- Half the encyclopedia contains unsourced content. Do we really want editors to go around deleting content without a good reason? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 17:57, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- It was challenged as being unsourced. Right here. Colloquial phrasing, perhaps, but that is a removal for being unsourced. Whether or not that was a great removal, it kicked WP:BURDEN into effect, and anyone restoring the material was obligated to provide an inline citation for the material. An inline citation. Not a blue-link. Not a tag. Not a hand-wave. An inline citation to a reliable source. It was removed a second time because the restoration was a blatant and willful violation of that policy. That you twice restored the material without making any effort to provide citations beforehand shows willful disregard for policy. You certainly did eventually help provide a few citations, but you did so only after you had caused other editors to shoulder the work that was yours to do. Finding sources for these things is good. I'm glad you did so. But do it before you restore material to articles, not afterwards.—Kww(talk) 18:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- Can you cite Wikipedia policy where it specifically says that WP:BURDEN overrides WP:PRESERVE? Can you cite Wikipedia policy where it specifically states edit-warring to win content disputes overrides WP:CONSENSUS? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- They are both policies. However, Bobrayner made a change, which you reverted without fulfilling your obligation under WP:BURDEN, I fixed your error, and than you reverted a second time without fulfilling your obligation under WP:BURDEN. I only see one editor in that exchange that an accusation of "edit warring" could be leveled against.—Kww(talk) 18:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- OK, I acknowledge your admission that WP:BURDEN does not override WP:PRESERVE and that edit-warring to win content disputes does not override WP:CONSENSUS. Please do not do so again otherwise you may be blocked. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- It truly is disheartening to see how a generally productive editor can be so intent on misreading policy to support the addition of unsourced material to articles, including unsourced material about living people.—Kww(talk) 19:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- Technically it is not against any policy to add material without a source attached to it. I can create an entire article without a single source and I will have not violated any written policy nor can one get blocked or otherwise sanctioned for it. We do not EVER discourage people from adding legitimate new information that helps the encyclopedia grow. Now if someone is new and perhaps does not know how to add an inline citation using our mark-up language then we would HELP them to learn and be more productive. Policy does state that lack following correct procedures does not EVER delegitimize an edit or an attempt at a bureaucratic function (writing a DYK as an example). Burden does not state you have to cite something BEFORE it being challenged, only if you think it could be challenged. AGF however forces everyone to assume that unless there is a huge amount of evidence that this is intentional, that the person who added must have assumed it would not be challenged (because of a blue link to the subject's article where there was indeed a source for example). Honest editing should not be disparaged such as Kww seems to be doing, and doing constantly. I suggest this all be collapsed and all the recent talk (3 threads now?) be allowed to quickly go into archives.Camelbinky (talk) 19:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- Read the discussion more closely: AQFK is defending the practice of restoring material that has already been challenged, basically by trying to set hurdles for the quality of the challenge. It is required to cite information that has already been challenged, and there's no provision for saying that you reject some challenges because you think the editor that made them is lazy or misguided. I'm not arguing that people should eradicate all unsourced material on sight, simply that once it has been eradicated, it's disruptive to edit-war it back in without following WP:BURDEN.—Kww(talk) 20:05, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- Technically it is not against any policy to add material without a source attached to it. I can create an entire article without a single source and I will have not violated any written policy nor can one get blocked or otherwise sanctioned for it. We do not EVER discourage people from adding legitimate new information that helps the encyclopedia grow. Now if someone is new and perhaps does not know how to add an inline citation using our mark-up language then we would HELP them to learn and be more productive. Policy does state that lack following correct procedures does not EVER delegitimize an edit or an attempt at a bureaucratic function (writing a DYK as an example). Burden does not state you have to cite something BEFORE it being challenged, only if you think it could be challenged. AGF however forces everyone to assume that unless there is a huge amount of evidence that this is intentional, that the person who added must have assumed it would not be challenged (because of a blue link to the subject's article where there was indeed a source for example). Honest editing should not be disparaged such as Kww seems to be doing, and doing constantly. I suggest this all be collapsed and all the recent talk (3 threads now?) be allowed to quickly go into archives.Camelbinky (talk) 19:46, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- It truly is disheartening to see how a generally productive editor can be so intent on misreading policy to support the addition of unsourced material to articles, including unsourced material about living people.—Kww(talk) 19:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- OK, I acknowledge your admission that WP:BURDEN does not override WP:PRESERVE and that edit-warring to win content disputes does not override WP:CONSENSUS. Please do not do so again otherwise you may be blocked. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:00, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- They are both policies. However, Bobrayner made a change, which you reverted without fulfilling your obligation under WP:BURDEN, I fixed your error, and than you reverted a second time without fulfilling your obligation under WP:BURDEN. I only see one editor in that exchange that an accusation of "edit warring" could be leveled against.—Kww(talk) 18:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- Can you cite Wikipedia policy where it specifically says that WP:BURDEN overrides WP:PRESERVE? Can you cite Wikipedia policy where it specifically states edit-warring to win content disputes overrides WP:CONSENSUS? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:17, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- It was challenged as being unsourced. Right here. Colloquial phrasing, perhaps, but that is a removal for being unsourced. Whether or not that was a great removal, it kicked WP:BURDEN into effect, and anyone restoring the material was obligated to provide an inline citation for the material. An inline citation. Not a blue-link. Not a tag. Not a hand-wave. An inline citation to a reliable source. It was removed a second time because the restoration was a blatant and willful violation of that policy. That you twice restored the material without making any effort to provide citations beforehand shows willful disregard for policy. You certainly did eventually help provide a few citations, but you did so only after you had caused other editors to shoulder the work that was yours to do. Finding sources for these things is good. I'm glad you did so. But do it before you restore material to articles, not afterwards.—Kww(talk) 18:07, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- Replying to Blueboar, way up there: the problem was the sequence, not the end result. The material should have been restored from history as sources were found. Reverting unsourced material en masse while making accusations of bad faith and then searching for sources is completely inappropriate.—Kww(talk) 20:09, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- My problems with this issue is that:
- Kww and Quest... you are both essentially complaining about a technical procedural foul... not a major infraction. Seriously, this entire argument is sounding lamer and lamer.
- Quest... how would you interpret WP:CANTFIX (the section immediately after WP:PRESERVE... where it says: Several of our core policies discuss situations when it might be more appropriate to remove information from an article rather than to preserve it. WP:Verifiability discusses handling unsourced and contentious material;... I interpret that as saying WP:V (which includes WP:BURDEN) can take precedence over WP:PRESERVE.
- As for making a good faith attempt at finding sources before issuing a challenge... I think it perfectly reasonable to assume that when something has been tagged as being unsourced for over three years there probably isn't one (surely someone should have found a source in all those years.) OK... it turns out that this assumption was incorrect, but I find it a very reasonable assumption to make, nevertheless... and because the assumption is reasonable, the challenge that resulted from it was made in good faith. More important... the challenge resulted in us actually FIXING a long standing problem. This was not a case of someone being POINTY and barging around removing unsourced material just because they can... this was a specific challenge enticing us to fix a specific long standing problem. I certainly did not mind taking a moment to look for sources to keep this material in the article per WP:BURDEN... and I don't really understand why you resented it so much. Blueboar (talk) 20:21, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- The reason I get grumpy is that the reversions make it nearly impossible to remove the data. This particular instance, it came to a decent result, and in that sense my complaint looks like a procedural whine. But the normal place for such a thing to end is that it gets removed and someone restores it with some tag, so it languishes in the article forever. I don't see any reason to believe that AQFK was ever going to find a source for any of that data, as he did not do so after either of his reversions. They appeared to be simply reflexive reversions, and he did not undertake sourcing anything until after you had done so. It's not the biggest of BLP violations, but there was even a BLP violation in there, as no one can find a source for one baseball player's hometown. If Wikipedia is ever to be cleansed and repaired of unsourced material, we have to draw a line, and WP:BURDEN draws it quite clearly: the person restoring material has to provide an inline citation when he does so. No exceptions.—Kww(talk) 20:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- There have to be exceptions. Imagine if editor A has some kind of grudge, gripe, or even a legitimate cause for concern, against editor B. Editor A goes through editor B's contribution history and removes the last 100 content additions citing WP:BURDEN. (We're probably all aware of similar incidents having actually taken place.) Editor A is always going to be in the wrong because they're using BURDEN for griefing. And, demanding a citation for "Paris is the capital of France" isn't exactly a brilliant use of WP:V either. In fact, I'm going to go further and say that I think using BURDEN against people you clash with on-wiki is only to be done with forethought and restraint.—S Marshall T/C 08:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Not so fast... Are you saying that Editor B has made 100 content additions without adding a single citation? That would be a red flag for me ... indicating that there is a serious issue with Editor B that needs to be addressed. I would at least want to look deeper into the conflict between A and B before I condemn Editor A's actions. Blueboar (talk) 11:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Well, let's not overanalyse the randomly-selected example. What I am saying is: Looking for sources is everyone's job. WP:BURDEN is not a licence to revert an addition without looking for sources yourself. It's not meant to be used as heavy artillery against an editor you dislike; it's to be used with sound editorial judgment and good sense. I'm not saying KWW was wrong in this specific case. What I'm saying is that BURDEN is not exception-free.—S Marshall T/C 12:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Actually... if you go back and examine the history of how WP:BURDEN came to be, the intent was explicitly to say that a challenger can revert an unsourced addition without looking for sources himself (for one thing, the challenger may not have the resources to check himself). The entire point of BURDEN is to say that when unsourced information is challenged, it is up to those who wish to keep the information in the article to do the work of finding the sources. That's what the word "Burden" means. It is not the job of the challenger to prove the negative (I looked and there are no sources)... it is the job of the adder/keeper to prove the positive (Here is a source).
- That said... We all agree that going on a mass removal campaign is wrong... the thing is, the rational given for the removal campaign does not really matter... it would be just as wrong to go on a mass removal campaign that used WP:NPOV or WP:NOR as the rational. The problem you are trying to address is mass removals, not the rational given for the mass removals. I don't know if this already exists, but if not perhaps you should write a WP:Don't go on a mass removal campaign behavioral guideline. I would be happy to help. Blueboar (talk) 12:48, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Well, let's not overanalyse the randomly-selected example. What I am saying is: Looking for sources is everyone's job. WP:BURDEN is not a licence to revert an addition without looking for sources yourself. It's not meant to be used as heavy artillery against an editor you dislike; it's to be used with sound editorial judgment and good sense. I'm not saying KWW was wrong in this specific case. What I'm saying is that BURDEN is not exception-free.—S Marshall T/C 12:06, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Not so fast... Are you saying that Editor B has made 100 content additions without adding a single citation? That would be a red flag for me ... indicating that there is a serious issue with Editor B that needs to be addressed. I would at least want to look deeper into the conflict between A and B before I condemn Editor A's actions. Blueboar (talk) 11:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- There have to be exceptions. Imagine if editor A has some kind of grudge, gripe, or even a legitimate cause for concern, against editor B. Editor A goes through editor B's contribution history and removes the last 100 content additions citing WP:BURDEN. (We're probably all aware of similar incidents having actually taken place.) Editor A is always going to be in the wrong because they're using BURDEN for griefing. And, demanding a citation for "Paris is the capital of France" isn't exactly a brilliant use of WP:V either. In fact, I'm going to go further and say that I think using BURDEN against people you clash with on-wiki is only to be done with forethought and restraint.—S Marshall T/C 08:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- The reason I get grumpy is that the reversions make it nearly impossible to remove the data. This particular instance, it came to a decent result, and in that sense my complaint looks like a procedural whine. But the normal place for such a thing to end is that it gets removed and someone restores it with some tag, so it languishes in the article forever. I don't see any reason to believe that AQFK was ever going to find a source for any of that data, as he did not do so after either of his reversions. They appeared to be simply reflexive reversions, and he did not undertake sourcing anything until after you had done so. It's not the biggest of BLP violations, but there was even a BLP violation in there, as no one can find a source for one baseball player's hometown. If Wikipedia is ever to be cleansed and repaired of unsourced material, we have to draw a line, and WP:BURDEN draws it quite clearly: the person restoring material has to provide an inline citation when he does so. No exceptions.—Kww(talk) 20:47, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
- If you think this is a "trivial technicality" then I think that you are completely missing the big picture here. Unscintillating (talk) 02:43, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
As usual I agree with Blueboar. The only obligation on the remover is to say that s/he has doubts about verifiability and, perhaps, to preserve the material on the talk page. (Since this is winding down, I won't churn it by giving my screed on why I believe WP:PRESERVE to be advisory rather than mandatory, especially in comparison to WP:BURDEN. Also, I am of the opinion that a failure to express doubt about verifiability may deserve a reminder plus a slap on the hand if repeated, but does not affect the burden of any restorer.) Mass removals are wrong, but the thing we are lacking is a good definition of "mass removal", so they have to be enforced via a Potter Stewart test. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Re Tagging: A bit off topic but one of the issues about section and article tags, is that in many circumstances, it is unclear why exacty they are there. It is incumbant upon the tagger to make it clear by saying something on the talk page when the tag is placed, and it is perfectly approraite that such unclear and undiscussed tags are summarily removed, and not left there for years. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:05, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with the spirit of your comment, but would quibble ... surely an "unreferenced section" tag left on on a section that has no references is clear as to what the problem is without a talk page comment to explain. "Not discussed on talk page" is not a valid reason to remove the tag. If a tag is unclear, it is incumbent on the responders to ask for clarification before they remove it. Blueboar (talk) 14:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- As to your first sentence, I did not say all circumstances. As to your second, a tag is subject to challenge also -- an unclear tag is not an article improvement. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:29, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Well, it's not just mass removals that I'm objecting to. I see the removal of easily-verifiable content as problematic behaviour. I don't mean the obscure or complicated stuff; if I went to solar twin and added, "The most sun-like star yet found is HIP 56948", then it's reasonable to challenge that under WP:BURDEN. But if I went to a less technical article and added content you could verify with thirty seconds' googling or by reaching for a standard dictionary, then if you revert it under WP:BURDEN then that behaviour would help me to form an opinion about you. It may not be required but it's certainly good practice to perform a perfunctory search of your own, and an editor who persistently fails, or refuses, to do that is not helping to write an encyclopaedia.—S Marshall T/C 14:20, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't agree. As I mentioned above, I watch several articles to which people like to add uncited examples. These are the people who aren't helping write an encyclopedia— or rather, the encyclopedia they're "helping" to write is the kind of junk source which plagues the fringe theory noticeboard. There are many, many articles where the number of junk contributors is high and where the quality of their insertions is low; the only way for the few watchers of these articles to keep up is to enforce the need for citations rigorously. A vote for tolerance in these articles is a vote for error. The differential between someone putting in their personal opinion and someone having to chase down possible citations puts the former at the advantage in getting their falsehoods kept. Mangoe (talk) 14:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- The problem I see the discussion dissolving into is that WP:Editing policy is schizophrenic when it comes to subsections like Burden, Preserve, and FIXTHEPROBLEM. While the wording has become closer in agreement the core reason behind each section is in opposition between Burden and Preserve, and the reason is that there are two philosophical camps in Wikipedia when it comes to uncited material and the requirements of editors; lots of "policy" decisions are compromises between people and groups who disagree and come to the best conclusion they can on leading us to make decisions in the future on issues such as this. Those who cite Burden want to put the burden on those who add information to cite it themselves and for the most part do not want to be burdened themselves with adding a citation. Those who cite Preserve want those who go around tagging everything they don't like, to go ahead and make an honest attempt to find a citation first and remove only as a last resort. Fixtheproblem is more compromise between the two groups. We need to recognize our policies aren't clear cut demands on how to do things and understand if someone means to help the encyclopedia that we are here to help them in return. Let's all just take some time this week and if you see something that needs a citation, to go ahead and find one, if we all fixed 5 a day for the next 5 days the encyclopedia would be all the better. Tagging and removing information is most definitely not as helpful as finding a citation, and don't we all want to do what is best for Wikipedia? BTW, removing information and assuming someone will come along and know that it is in history and it needs a source to come back is unreasonable, a tag at least lets the occasional reader know not to take it for definite fact; and it serves to let advanced editors know to take time to find a source. Anyone who removes content without taking a good faith effort to find a source should be ashamed and there should be consequences for continual behavior of that sort (eg- constantly being proved by others that a 30-second google search solved the problem results in sanctions).Camelbinky (talk) 15:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- There's no schizophrenia, it's simple. The stable wording of WP:PRESERVE is "Preserve appropriate content" (which, incidentally, is my phrasing). If content is appropriate for the encyclopaedia then it's up to you, editors, not to remove it. If it's inappropriate then there's obviously no obstacle to its removal. If you're not sure whether it's appropriate then there's an onus on you to search for sources and make up your mind about its appropriateness before removing it. If you do remove it then there's an onus on me to source it before I add it back. When editors do what they're supposed to do and co-operate in looking at the sources together, where's the conflict? There's none.
When editors demand that other people do all the work, frayed tempers are only to be expected, really.—S Marshall T/C 16:15, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- There's no schizophrenia, it's simple. The stable wording of WP:PRESERVE is "Preserve appropriate content" (which, incidentally, is my phrasing). If content is appropriate for the encyclopaedia then it's up to you, editors, not to remove it. If it's inappropriate then there's obviously no obstacle to its removal. If you're not sure whether it's appropriate then there's an onus on you to search for sources and make up your mind about its appropriateness before removing it. If you do remove it then there's an onus on me to source it before I add it back. When editors do what they're supposed to do and co-operate in looking at the sources together, where's the conflict? There's none.
- OK... time for an airing of one of my pet peeves... I am getting tired of people saying that the only way to "contribute" and "improve" wikipedia is to add material (be it information or the sources that support it). The fact is removing material is also be a way to contribute, and improve wikipedia ... removing material can be just as helpful as adding information. It all depends on what is being added or removed. Blueboar (talk) 16:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree with Camelbinky more. Let's take this deletion I made as an example. I came onto it and The Ford House doing {{coord missing}} patrolling. And I knew from editing The Ford House that both that article and the Chertsey Abbey article were plagued with unsourced material about being spiritually haunted. I prodded the house article, which was subsequently deleted, and {{cn}}–tagged the unsourced assertion referenced above, which fit into the haunting nonsense with the house article. After a month, I deleted that unsourced assertion. Did I search for a source? Nope, not for a minute. Do I feel ashamed for it? No, not in the slightest. (I didn't preserve it to the talk page because, to tell you the unvarnished truth, I wasn't aware of PRESERVE at that point in time, but I probably would today — and may go back and do so now.) I very rarely delete unsourced information, but I generally have a good reason for doing so when I do other than the fact that it is unsourced, but when I occasionally come across an unsourced and highly–improbable assertion inserted by a fringecruft–lover such as this while doing something else, I'm probably not going to take the time to look for sources, nor am (or should) I or anyone else be rule-required to do so. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- First of all there are no rules requiring editors to edit in a certain way. The ONLY thing, and I swear to G-d this is not up for debate, that matters is that you are trying to improve Wikipedia (and Blueboar is right, that does not mean just adding, it can mean removing). It does not matter about bureaucracy, policy, or even citations; as long as the information you are adding is, in your best faith knowledge correct and factual, it does not matter one bit how you put it in. If it creates "work" for someone else to fix it up, too fucking bad, seriously, this all boils down to people not feeling they should clean up other's messes. Well, we are a work in progress, some new editors add good things but don't know how, or add things that prod others to make it better. This crap of harping on others because they didn't add the information the way we want it and that they aren't following rules has got to stop. This is the kind of harping crap that has driven away potential editors, the only new editors that stay are ones that ignore the rudeness and learn the !rules, but then of course that causes a feedback loop because then they think they need to act the same way to newer editors. You see something that needs a citation, if you have reason to believe it is not true, tag it, if it is tagged and still not fixed, remove it; if you have some reason to believe it is true then YES YOU MUST DO SOME SEARCHING!!!!!, it is common courtesy, common sense, and it will go a long way from solving your laziness problem.Camelbinky (talk) 18:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- "[A]s long as the information you are adding is, in your best faith knowledge correct and factual, it does not matter one bit how you put it in." That statement completely invalidates WP:V. When information is not cited to a reliable source, the average reader has no way to confirm whether or not it is real-world-reliable. And the more unsourced information that's here, the more worthless this encyclopedia becomes (and FSM knows we're accused of being worthless enough as it is) and arguments such as this just make it that much harder to purge the encyclopedia of that kind of information because for every good-faith editor here who does care about sourcing and the quality and reputation of the encyclopedia, there are ten fanboys, POV-pushers, and Randy's from Boise packing in the unsourced information. That's the reason that it is, and should be, easy for editors of good faith to remove unsourced information if they merely suspect that it might be unverifiable: if it's really valuable and reliably-sourceable someone who cares enough to do it right will add it back in. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm surprised this kind of discussion is still ongoing. If Wikipedia aspires to be taken seriously then the burden of providing references has to be on an editor who wants to add or include material. If an editor, in good faith, believes unsourced material is not true or is implausible, or just considers that it shouldn't be included without references, they should be able to remove it. Then another editor can restore it if they provide a good quality reference. There should be no expectation on editors to look for sources for this kind of material rather than remove it. For various good reasons, they may not have the time/resources/inclination to do so. Removing questionable text is improving articles. As a reader, I would have a lot more confidence in an encyclopedia if I knew it had been ruthlessly edited and purged of questionable or unsourced material, than if I knew the editorial policy was to keep stuff in as a default. --hippo43 (talk) 19:41, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- "[A]s long as the information you are adding is, in your best faith knowledge correct and factual, it does not matter one bit how you put it in." That statement completely invalidates WP:V. When information is not cited to a reliable source, the average reader has no way to confirm whether or not it is real-world-reliable. And the more unsourced information that's here, the more worthless this encyclopedia becomes (and FSM knows we're accused of being worthless enough as it is) and arguments such as this just make it that much harder to purge the encyclopedia of that kind of information because for every good-faith editor here who does care about sourcing and the quality and reputation of the encyclopedia, there are ten fanboys, POV-pushers, and Randy's from Boise packing in the unsourced information. That's the reason that it is, and should be, easy for editors of good faith to remove unsourced information if they merely suspect that it might be unverifiable: if it's really valuable and reliably-sourceable someone who cares enough to do it right will add it back in. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:59, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- First of all there are no rules requiring editors to edit in a certain way. The ONLY thing, and I swear to G-d this is not up for debate, that matters is that you are trying to improve Wikipedia (and Blueboar is right, that does not mean just adding, it can mean removing). It does not matter about bureaucracy, policy, or even citations; as long as the information you are adding is, in your best faith knowledge correct and factual, it does not matter one bit how you put it in. If it creates "work" for someone else to fix it up, too fucking bad, seriously, this all boils down to people not feeling they should clean up other's messes. Well, we are a work in progress, some new editors add good things but don't know how, or add things that prod others to make it better. This crap of harping on others because they didn't add the information the way we want it and that they aren't following rules has got to stop. This is the kind of harping crap that has driven away potential editors, the only new editors that stay are ones that ignore the rudeness and learn the !rules, but then of course that causes a feedback loop because then they think they need to act the same way to newer editors. You see something that needs a citation, if you have reason to believe it is not true, tag it, if it is tagged and still not fixed, remove it; if you have some reason to believe it is true then YES YOU MUST DO SOME SEARCHING!!!!!, it is common courtesy, common sense, and it will go a long way from solving your laziness problem.Camelbinky (talk) 18:33, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I couldn't disagree with Camelbinky more. Let's take this deletion I made as an example. I came onto it and The Ford House doing {{coord missing}} patrolling. And I knew from editing The Ford House that both that article and the Chertsey Abbey article were plagued with unsourced material about being spiritually haunted. I prodded the house article, which was subsequently deleted, and {{cn}}–tagged the unsourced assertion referenced above, which fit into the haunting nonsense with the house article. After a month, I deleted that unsourced assertion. Did I search for a source? Nope, not for a minute. Do I feel ashamed for it? No, not in the slightest. (I didn't preserve it to the talk page because, to tell you the unvarnished truth, I wasn't aware of PRESERVE at that point in time, but I probably would today — and may go back and do so now.) I very rarely delete unsourced information, but I generally have a good reason for doing so when I do other than the fact that it is unsourced, but when I occasionally come across an unsourced and highly–improbable assertion inserted by a fringecruft–lover such as this while doing something else, I'm probably not going to take the time to look for sources, nor am (or should) I or anyone else be rule-required to do so. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 16:28, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- The problem I see the discussion dissolving into is that WP:Editing policy is schizophrenic when it comes to subsections like Burden, Preserve, and FIXTHEPROBLEM. While the wording has become closer in agreement the core reason behind each section is in opposition between Burden and Preserve, and the reason is that there are two philosophical camps in Wikipedia when it comes to uncited material and the requirements of editors; lots of "policy" decisions are compromises between people and groups who disagree and come to the best conclusion they can on leading us to make decisions in the future on issues such as this. Those who cite Burden want to put the burden on those who add information to cite it themselves and for the most part do not want to be burdened themselves with adding a citation. Those who cite Preserve want those who go around tagging everything they don't like, to go ahead and make an honest attempt to find a citation first and remove only as a last resort. Fixtheproblem is more compromise between the two groups. We need to recognize our policies aren't clear cut demands on how to do things and understand if someone means to help the encyclopedia that we are here to help them in return. Let's all just take some time this week and if you see something that needs a citation, to go ahead and find one, if we all fixed 5 a day for the next 5 days the encyclopedia would be all the better. Tagging and removing information is most definitely not as helpful as finding a citation, and don't we all want to do what is best for Wikipedia? BTW, removing information and assuming someone will come along and know that it is in history and it needs a source to come back is unreasonable, a tag at least lets the occasional reader know not to take it for definite fact; and it serves to let advanced editors know to take time to find a source. Anyone who removes content without taking a good faith effort to find a source should be ashamed and there should be consequences for continual behavior of that sort (eg- constantly being proved by others that a 30-second google search solved the problem results in sanctions).Camelbinky (talk) 15:25, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- A practical example will probably help here. I've just created a fresh biographical article, Marianne von Willemer. It cites absolutely no sources at all. It is nevertheless fully compliant with WP:V, because everything in it is verifiable and nothing in it is challenged or likely to be challenged.—S Marshall T/C 19:51, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that sort of article may well be accurate (and I'm sure this one is) but the point is about when something is challenged. I could remove any of the unreferenced facts that you have asserted, and the onus would rightly be on any editor wanting to restore them to provide references. If I can't/won't look for sources myself, that shouldn't remove the burden from editors who want to restore it. --hippo43 (talk) 22:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- True; looking for sources is best practice, not a requirement. And I see you wisely chose to tag the article rather than remove any content. But if you won't look for sources yourself, then how does that affect your credibility as an editor? And if you really are sure the article was accurate, then why have you tagged it?—S Marshall T/C 22:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Who says looking for sources is best practice? Removing unsourced, questionable material seems like best practice to me. Then looking for sources if you have time/resources/knowledge etc would be nice. Truly best practice is probably not creating an entirely unreferenced article.
- My credibility as an editor is in the eye of the beholder. Some editors think looking for sources in this kind of situation is a big deal. I don't. IMO creating a completely unreferenced article is more harmful to an editor's credibility.
- I wrote "I'm sure this one is (accurate)" as a kind of shorthand. Obviously I'm not sure at all. I don't know anything about this woman, but I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because you're using it as an example here. If I had just stumbled across that article, I would probably tag a lot more. Deleting the unreferenced parts of it would seem pretty brutal as there'd be nothing left. --hippo43 (talk) 08:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Two points: first, a whole article is a different kettle of fish. Dealing with it would in general require pushing through a merger or a whack at AFD. To do the latter one has to do some basic research— or at least someone is bound to do it. Second, the one claim which cries out for verification is the last, and it is also the easiest to verify. At the same time, I don't feel the obligation to go back and do your work for you. If you can write this article at all, it's because you have a source for it; there's no reason not to expect you to admit what that source was. I've written articles (and especially not-ready-for-publication articles) where I didn't lay out the in-line citations, but just put them in a list at the bottom. A lot of my older articles did get published that way, and I haven't felt too compelled to go back and clean them all up because as a rule it's not hard to find the claims in the cited works (both they and the articles tend to be short). But especially for someone who actually knows what they're doing, there's really no excuse at the time for publishing an article without any references at all. We wouldn't let anything through AFC in that state. You're using "verifiable" in a sense which would apply to any string of declarative sentences; I cannot verify that your sources are being represented accurately, because I don't know what they are. What I'm seeing is that this is a situation where you can get away with doing a bad job. Mangoe (talk) 22:46, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Anyone else want to give me attitude about my failure to add a source they can't check because it's in a language they don't speak? I may collect all this stuff up for posterity. :)—S Marshall T/C 23:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- Not sure about the attitude part, but I think you should have provided a source or not created the article. Tell me, do you agree that we need more admins supporting WP:V and the need for sources? Unscintillating (talk) 01:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- With all due respect, Unscintillating, you're completely missing the point. That article fully complies with WP:V as-is, with no sources at all. Because every word in it is sourceable and there's nothing in it that's challenged or likely to be challenged. There's no academic dispute about Marianne von Willemer or her role in Goethe's writings. There's no nationalist partisanship involved. She's not part of a special interest group or involved with a political affiliation.
The purpose of writing the article is of course that someone might want to know about Marianne von Willemer, but the purpose of omitting the sources is to facilitate a discussion about WP:V that's more practical than the theoretical-level discussions above. I'm finding it illuminating: faced with this practical example, nobody's behaving in an extreme way. There's grumbling that I should have listed my sources, and someone's added a tag, but despite the misinterpretations of WP:V we saw in the discussion that preceded the article's creation, in practice nobody feels comfortable with removing anything.
I also see that nobody has lifted a finger to source it themselves, so my failure of best practice in not listing my sources is mirrored by other peoples' in not doing any work either.—S Marshall T/C 08:36, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- In fact I could not find a good citation for the last sentence, so I removed it. A quick look didn't turn up a source making that exact claim, and while I found some testimony that she did write some of the work, I need to get in the shower in a moment, so I don't have time to dig through that and sort out a passage that I can cite. So I took the whole thing out, as it is better to have a lack of claims rather than claims that I cannot be sure of. I really don't care whether you may have used a German source, or for that matter a source in Urdu or Tlingit; all unreferenced sources are equally unreadable. I see no reason to believe that you can read German, if you don't cough up a source. I take a hard line on exclusivity and priority claims, and delete them all if they don't have a good citation, because they are usually incorrect if they are not cited. I would not be surprised that there are good German sources, but I disbelieve that you are using them unless you cite them; I don't see anything in what is written that couldn't be taken from a misinterpretation of the English-language sources I turned up. If you feel you must stand on principle, I am willing to do likewise; however, when push comes to shove, it is my (and the world's) higher standards that need be met. Mangoe (talk) 10:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- And now let's throw that open to discussion. Is Mangoe being POINTY?—S Marshall T/C 13:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- No more than the rest of us. Seriously... we are all getting a bit POINTY here. And a bit too personal in our comments. Time to back off, folks. Blueboar (talk) 13:55, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- The question of whether it can be POINTY to remove easily-verifiable content is germane.—S Marshall T/C 14:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Of course it can be POINTY to remove easily-verifiable content... We all know that. However, it is not always POINTY to do so. Sometimes it is absolutely appropriate. Note that it can also be POINTY to return such material without adding a citation. People can get POINTY about all our policy and guideline provisions, including both WP:BURDEN and WP:PRESERVE. . Blueboar (talk) 14:21, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- The question of whether it can be POINTY to remove easily-verifiable content is germane.—S Marshall T/C 14:05, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- If I cannot easily verify it, then it's not "easily verifiable". And I would say I'm a bit better at this than average. You set up a test case; I say it doesn't pass, and there's nothing POINTY in the police showing up when you climb the Reichstag. The thing is that you, as the writer, cannot be the arbiter of what is "easily verifiable"; it's too ready a means of avoiding ever having to supply proof for possibly fallacious claims. As I said, a quick search didn't turn up a statement that she was the only one to ghostwrite some of Goethe's material, so I took that assertion out. The rest of the sentence died to the cause of accuracy because at 6:30 in the morning I didn't have time to do the research needed to rewrite the rest of the sentence around the excision. And speaking as a reader who also edits, and particularly in the latter case as someone who deals with fringe theory material, I don't have a lot of confidence in Wikipedia articles which lack citation. We have had far too many hoaxes in which plausibility and a lack of scrutiny protected false information; therefore the mere claim that some material is "easily verifiable" tends to make me suspect that it is not only not verifiable, but should be assumed false until someone demonstrates otherwise. Someone without my experience in researching and fact-checking, who is doing a quick Google search to get a rough idea about something, is surely not in a position to easily verify anything, and shouldn't trust someone's easy assurance that the information is easily verified; the refusal to pony up I translate into the assumption that the material shouldn't be trusted. Mangoe (talk) 16:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- No more than the rest of us. Seriously... we are all getting a bit POINTY here. And a bit too personal in our comments. Time to back off, folks. Blueboar (talk) 13:55, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- And now let's throw that open to discussion. Is Mangoe being POINTY?—S Marshall T/C 13:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- In fact I could not find a good citation for the last sentence, so I removed it. A quick look didn't turn up a source making that exact claim, and while I found some testimony that she did write some of the work, I need to get in the shower in a moment, so I don't have time to dig through that and sort out a passage that I can cite. So I took the whole thing out, as it is better to have a lack of claims rather than claims that I cannot be sure of. I really don't care whether you may have used a German source, or for that matter a source in Urdu or Tlingit; all unreferenced sources are equally unreadable. I see no reason to believe that you can read German, if you don't cough up a source. I take a hard line on exclusivity and priority claims, and delete them all if they don't have a good citation, because they are usually incorrect if they are not cited. I would not be surprised that there are good German sources, but I disbelieve that you are using them unless you cite them; I don't see anything in what is written that couldn't be taken from a misinterpretation of the English-language sources I turned up. If you feel you must stand on principle, I am willing to do likewise; however, when push comes to shove, it is my (and the world's) higher standards that need be met. Mangoe (talk) 10:29, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- With all due respect, Unscintillating, you're completely missing the point. That article fully complies with WP:V as-is, with no sources at all. Because every word in it is sourceable and there's nothing in it that's challenged or likely to be challenged. There's no academic dispute about Marianne von Willemer or her role in Goethe's writings. There's no nationalist partisanship involved. She's not part of a special interest group or involved with a political affiliation.
- Not sure about the attitude part, but I think you should have provided a source or not created the article. Tell me, do you agree that we need more admins supporting WP:V and the need for sources? Unscintillating (talk) 01:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Anyone else want to give me attitude about my failure to add a source they can't check because it's in a language they don't speak? I may collect all this stuff up for posterity. :)—S Marshall T/C 23:08, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- True; looking for sources is best practice, not a requirement. And I see you wisely chose to tag the article rather than remove any content. But if you won't look for sources yourself, then how does that affect your credibility as an editor? And if you really are sure the article was accurate, then why have you tagged it?—S Marshall T/C 22:44, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree that sort of article may well be accurate (and I'm sure this one is) but the point is about when something is challenged. I could remove any of the unreferenced facts that you have asserted, and the onus would rightly be on any editor wanting to restore them to provide references. If I can't/won't look for sources myself, that shouldn't remove the burden from editors who want to restore it. --hippo43 (talk) 22:03, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
Well, I hear all that. It's understandable that someone who hangs around the fringe theory parts of Wikipedia would get suspicious. To you, BURDEN is vital because it's a stick to beat the POV-pushers with. I get that.
But not all of Wikipedia is fringe, or full of POV-pushers. Most articles are completely uncontroversial----the individual species of spider; the religious articles that have been untouched since they got copy/pasted from the 1913 Catholic encyclopaedia; and that one you always get when you click "random article" which is about Where the Fuck, Idaho (pop. 312). BURDEN needs to be about these general cases. It doesn't need to be specially tailored for the Fringe Theory Noticeboard or the Palestine-Israel controversy or whichever other topic area's plastered all over AN/I right now (I don't keep track). And the reason why BURDEN needs to deal with general articles, not controversial ones, is because hard cases make bad law.
With these general articles, wandering around randomly removing unsourced facts from material you haven't researched is not a good idea. For example: A reader who looked up "Marianne von Willemer" on Wikipedia is probably doing that because they've heard of someone who's won the Marianne von Willemer Prize for Literature. But I haven't written the section on the Marianne von Willemer Prize yet. That section would need to be set in context about her significance as a writer. But when some random editor goes to the recently-written article and removes the only sentence that says why she's important as a writer, the subsequent reader loses all context. They'd probably think the Marianne von Willemer Prize was some kind of acting award, or something. Do you see?
Part of the reason why I see this as so important is because randomly removing sentences in this way could so easily create a WP:DUE or other WP:NPOV issue. I think editors should research all changes they make to the encyclopaedia, and that includes subtractions.—S Marshall T/C 17:54, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is that (as the list of hoaxes shows) there isn't any place in the encyclopedia which is above suspicion anymore. Most successful hoaxes work by incorporating innocent-looking material in articles that aren't heavily watched; I suspect that the quantity of deliberate falsehoods which have gone undetected because they weren't seen by an expert and weren't outrageous enough to tip off the passer-by is vastly larger than what has thus far been detected. From what I can tell there are a lot of "Sodding Chipwich" articles out there which document utterly fictitious communities, often enough because the name is copied from some source which has made some stupid mistake along the way. But if I cannot tell what that source is, how can I tell? We've had some big arguments in the lighthouse project about fictitious stations created out of mistakes made by the people who wrote up the USCG history pages. The NRHP project is continually plagued by mistakes in he official database; they make up phony towns all the time, to the point where there is a place for keeping track of and reporting the errors back to the NPS.
- Back seven or eight years ago it was tolerable to throw a few sentences together on a subject and call it a day, knowing (meaning hoping) that later on someone would come back and to the work right. The project is too mature for that kind of shortcut any more. Readers should be able to trust the material, and the apparatus of that trust is, in part, the provision of the sources used. Really, at this point the standard should be raised from "verifiability" (which I interpret to mean that I can verify that the article reflects its sources) to "verification". I may well put in a proposal to do that. But even so, the insistence that I must assume good faith about unreferenced material, even on what is commonplace, is now out of line. There is simply too much falsehood being slipped into the work through that door. Mangoe (talk) 18:19, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't actually understand your most recent edit to the article we're talking about; you seem to have changed it from a claim that she co-authored part of the book, to a claim that she co-authored part of the book. Did you see what I said about removing sentences actually creating NPOV and DUE issues, and do you have a response to that?—S Marshall T/C 19:08, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- We need both WP:PRESERVE and WP:BURDEN. In this particular case, the section tag was added by an editor who soon left Wikipedia using vulgarity. The next few years show a consensus with dozens of edits that the tag was not actionable for the purpose of adding sources. It is also not actionable under WP:BURDEN because it is too vague to know what is being challenged. It is like a tag that says, "This article has problems that need to be fixed." There seems to be only one proper next edit here, which is to replace the single tag with individualized cn tags. Unscintillating (talk) 02:09, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- The content in Elizabethtown, KY was challenged repeatedly, so it's rather different from S Marshall's example which is, dare I say it, rather atypical. Articles in the wild with zero sources are generally good candidates for gutting, rewriting with new sourced content, redirecting, or AfD (or CSD) because they usually have problems with accuracy, neutrality, or notability (the latter is based on sources, of course). I have no interest in making WP:POINTY edits to Marianne von Willemer! :-) bobrayner (talk) 10:57, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- What was the challenge? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- One good example would be this edit. I'm surprised that you were unaware of that challenge, since you reverted it, and your revert failed this policy. bobrayner (talk) 11:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- No, I'm asking what the reason was for the challenge. AQFK (talk) 11:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- The reason for Bob's challenge was stated in the edit summary: "don't we need sources for this kind of thing? Especially if living people are involved". Blueboar (talk) 12:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- Taking a look at that edit summary, the answer to that question is: No, we don't need inline citations. This goes back to the difference between verifi'able and verified. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- The material included unverifiable information about living people, AQFK. Don't get so obsessed with the specific language of the challenge: it wasn't sourced. It was challenged on the basis of it not being sourced. The challenger removed it on the grounds of it being unsourced, and hence unverified. No challenge has to meet your personal standards for quality before WP:BURDEN kicks in. Any and all restoration of that material without having bothered to find a source prior to restoring the material was disruptive.—Kww(talk) 00:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- No, it appears that the question was based on honest misunderstanding between the difference between verifiable and verified. Since no challenge was offered, WP:BURDEN doesn't apply (but if it did), WP:PRESERVE also applies (and no argument why WP:PRESERVE should be ignored has been presented so far). But even still, the information was proven to be verifiable by the simple fact of all the citations that were easily added.[1] So even if we were to ignore policy as well as common sense, how does one explain the fact that the information was BOTH verifiable yet verified? In any case, I'll let you get in the last word. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- AQFK, PRESERVE states that facts "should be retained if they meet the requirements of the three core content policies: Neutral point of view (which doesn't mean No point of view), Verifiability and No original research." This material was clearly challenged on the basis of verifiability, therefore PRESERVE does not support its retention. In any case, BURDEN does not state that material has to be challenged before it can be removed (even less that it has to meet your definition of challenged). It clearly states "Any material lacking a reliable source directly supporting it may be removed." --hippo43 (talk) 03:22, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- No, it appears that the question was based on honest misunderstanding between the difference between verifiable and verified. Since no challenge was offered, WP:BURDEN doesn't apply (but if it did), WP:PRESERVE also applies (and no argument why WP:PRESERVE should be ignored has been presented so far). But even still, the information was proven to be verifiable by the simple fact of all the citations that were easily added.[1] So even if we were to ignore policy as well as common sense, how does one explain the fact that the information was BOTH verifiable yet verified? In any case, I'll let you get in the last word. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 02:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- The material included unverifiable information about living people, AQFK. Don't get so obsessed with the specific language of the challenge: it wasn't sourced. It was challenged on the basis of it not being sourced. The challenger removed it on the grounds of it being unsourced, and hence unverified. No challenge has to meet your personal standards for quality before WP:BURDEN kicks in. Any and all restoration of that material without having bothered to find a source prior to restoring the material was disruptive.—Kww(talk) 00:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Taking a look at that edit summary, the answer to that question is: No, we don't need inline citations. This goes back to the difference between verifi'able and verified. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 14:29, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- The reason for Bob's challenge was stated in the edit summary: "don't we need sources for this kind of thing? Especially if living people are involved". Blueboar (talk) 12:07, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- No, I'm asking what the reason was for the challenge. AQFK (talk) 11:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- One good example would be this edit. I'm surprised that you were unaware of that challenge, since you reverted it, and your revert failed this policy. bobrayner (talk) 11:10, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- What was the challenge? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 11:00, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- The content in Elizabethtown, KY was challenged repeatedly, so it's rather different from S Marshall's example which is, dare I say it, rather atypical. Articles in the wild with zero sources are generally good candidates for gutting, rewriting with new sourced content, redirecting, or AfD (or CSD) because they usually have problems with accuracy, neutrality, or notability (the latter is based on sources, of course). I have no interest in making WP:POINTY edits to Marianne von Willemer! :-) bobrayner (talk) 10:57, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Moreover, note that "should". As I have alluded to before, though PRESERVE is part of a larger policy it is a part which is only a best practices or advisory provision, not a mandatory provision. If it were mandatory, that sentence would read "retain them if they meet the requirements of the three core content policies" or "they must be retained if they meet the requirements of the three core content policies". For the same reason, the intro line to the laundry list at the bottom of PRESERVE reads "Instead of deleting text, consider:" (emphasis added). Thus an editor must only give consideration to doing those things, but is free to do as s/he likes. The entire tenor of the subsection is advisory / best practices, not mandatory. Like most other best practices provisions in policy, that's not to say that you can't get in trouble if you ignore it often enough, especially if you're engaged in a POV or other self-serving program, but for an isolated instance or occasional flouting, not so much. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:06, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- PRESERVE is mandatory. Content that's appropriate for an online encyclopaedia should be preserved. This is not in any sense optional and there's no room for discretion there at all: if the content belongs in an article somewhere then you may not delete it. There is, of course, plenty of room for reasonable people to disagree about whether a particular piece of content is "appropriate".—S Marshall T/C 18:54, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- In my OP to this section, I mentioned the outright removal of unclear section tags. However, I want to reiterate alanscottwalker's point above, "a tag is subject to challenge also". For other approaches, Blueboar has demonstrated that the section tag can be removed and replaced with inline tags. It is also possible to remove the section tag and just add a perfunctory number of inline tags to get the ball rolling to zero in on the actual problems. If the entire article has one giant tag, it may be necessary to first replace the article tag with section tags before working on the individual section tags. Unscintillating (talk) 21:35, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Procedural suggestion
(Ancient joke warning!) A guy goes into an old folk's home and goes into the sitting room to wait for his uncle. Twenty or so old guys are sitting around there and every now and then one of them calls out a number. "75" and every one laughs. "54" and everyone laughs. "8" and everyone laughs. The guy is perplexed, but his uncle comes in about that time. "What's going on with the numbers and the laughing?" the guy asks. "Oh," his uncle says, "all these guys have been telling the same jokes to one another for so long that they've given them numbers and just call out the number." The young guy thinks for a minute and yells out "65". Nobody laughs. "What's the matter," he asks, "isn't that a joke?" "Oh, it's a joke, but you told it wrong." Can't we just number the different arguments and responses which just keep getting endlessly made over, and over, and over again here and cut down on the discussion? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:33, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
- I can see it now... "Number 42"[citation needed] Blueboar (talk) 22:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Preferences issue
While looking for a preference to turn off the Visual Editor links, I found a gadget that allows you to add some dropdown boxes to the editing window to let you plug in quick edit summaries. One of them is "Removing unsourced content". In light of our new policies about what you have to say when you're deleting unsourced content, that ES is obviously inadequate. I've asked that it be changed to read, "Removing unsourced content, no published reliable source may exist, thus perhaps not verifiable" so that people don't step into a trap using the WP-provided tools. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:14, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- I fear that may be unhelpful. WP:V simply says "Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed"; let's not overcomplicate it. When you say "new policies", which new policy do you have in mind? bobrayner (talk) 02:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
References
- ^ When tagging or removing such material, please keep in mind that such edits can be easily misunderstood. Some editors object to others making chronic, frequent, and large-scale deletions of unsourced information, especially if unaccompanied by other efforts to improve the material. Do not concentrate only on material of a particular POV, as that may result in accusations that you are in violation of WP:NPOV. Also check to see whether the material is sourced to a citation elsewhere on the page. For all of these reasons, it is advisable to communicate clearly that you have a considered reason to believe that the material in question cannot be verified.
- It was added pursuant to this RFC which ended in October, 2012. Please don't interpret my request as an indication that I like this provision. To the absolute contrary. But if we've got it, we don't need to be leading people into violating it inadvertently. If someone were dragged before ANI for violating it, I'd be willing to argue that the "please" in the main section and the "advisable" in the footnote make this advisory/best practice rather than mandatory, but I rather suspect that there are others who might not feel that way. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that we want to have an automatic summary making claims that the editors may not actually believe. People sometimes remove unsourced material even though they fully believe that sources exist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- If they do, then they have probably violated policy since the sentence just after the one quoted just above is, "If instead you think the material is verifiable, try to provide an inline citation yourself before considering whether to remove or tag it." Now, that is admittedly a violation which would be hard to prove at ANI since it would require proof of what was inside the editor's head. Moreover, since the "try to provide" links to WP:PRESERVE and WP:PRESERVE is advisory / best practice rather than mandatory (see the argument I just made a couple of minutes ago a couple of sections above), then arguably this provision is either not mandatory or it only requires you to do something that is mostly optional, so that would make a violation of this sentence even more difficult to sanction but hey, a violation is a violation and we don't want to promote it, do we? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 14:17, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think that we want to have an automatic summary making claims that the editors may not actually believe. People sometimes remove unsourced material even though they fully believe that sources exist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:55, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- It was added pursuant to this RFC which ended in October, 2012. Please don't interpret my request as an indication that I like this provision. To the absolute contrary. But if we've got it, we don't need to be leading people into violating it inadvertently. If someone were dragged before ANI for violating it, I'd be willing to argue that the "please" in the main section and the "advisable" in the footnote make this advisory/best practice rather than mandatory, but I rather suspect that there are others who might not feel that way. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 17:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
Verifiability
There was a discussion on an article page Talk:Annery, Monkleigh about whether or not it's proper for an editor to use gravestones that they have observed as a source.
It seemed to me that from the WP:Verifiability guideline: information must be from "previously published information" - and excludes original research.
I was told that the footnote: "This includes material such as documents in publicly-accessible archives, inscriptions on monuments, gravestones, etc., that are available for anyone to see." means that contributors may use monuments or gravestones that they've observed.
However, the footnote refers to the sentence: "Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Source material must have been published, the definition of which for our purposes is "made available to the public in some form""
Can you help me out with this? This has come up as an issue in another article (John Dennys - Funerary Monuments in St. Thomas a Becket Church, Pucklechurch, Glocestershire} and I'm just wanting to check that I've got the right interpretation. Can contributors cite the physical monuments or gravestones as a source for the article? Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:28, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not sure exactly what your question is, but if it's about the publication bit there was a good discussion here about that just a few days back. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:50, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, you're right that did help! My question was: Can contributors cite physical monuments or gravestones as a source for
the(an) article?
- Thanks, you're right that did help! My question was: Can contributors cite physical monuments or gravestones as a source for
- It seems from the material that you provided that they can be, because they are available to the public, but are considered a primary source. I take this to mean that if there are reliable secondary sources, that would be better - but information from a gravestone or monument could be cited. Is that right?--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:48, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- I think in these cases, the best thing to do is to cite the gravestone or marker as a source for what the gravestone or marker says. That is, when in doubt, use overt in-text attribution of information, and say things like "According to his gravestone, blah blah blah" with a footnote to the marker in question. We should only speak in Wikipedia's voice where it is backed up scrupulously by reliable sources, and in the case of using something like this, it's best to make it clear and overt to the reader where the information comes from. --Jayron32 02:33, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- It seems from the material that you provided that they can be, because they are available to the public, but are considered a primary source. I take this to mean that if there are reliable secondary sources, that would be better - but information from a gravestone or monument could be cited. Is that right?--CaroleHenson (talk) 21:48, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
- Absolutely. And to clarify (or more likely, having read this, complicate!) further, Carole, it doesn't apply to descriptions of monuments, only to the inscriptions that they bear: words and characters that if, say, half a dozen people were to carefully transcribe, all of them would agree on.
- That clarification to the policy simply confirms that those inscriptions are "published" – the very first step in deciding if we can make use of them in our articles. We then have to consider what that use can be, by considering further questions:
- are they reliable? – usually they will be (though WP:IRS isn't written with this type of material in mind – it seems to me to make more sense to understand "reliable" for this kind of material as determining if it's genuine or a fake)
- what kind of a source are they? – primary, almost every time; and
- are they independent? – gravestones etc. usually aren't because they're written as a eulogy by someone closely involved with the deceased (a bit like a press release).
- So as Jayron32 says, in-text attribution is usually necessary. And we mustn't make any non-obvious inferences from them either (that's OR). —SMALLJIM 10:46, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- And regarding the understandable confusion that you express in your 4th sentence: that the footnote appears in a para that starts with the apparently irrelevant "Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." I think anyone who regularly consults the policy (any of our policies actually) would agree that after ten years of tinkering by hundreds of people it's basically a jumbled mess that ought to be completely rewritten in a logical order. But there's no chance at all of that ever happening. WP:A was a noble attempt that failed. —SMALLJIM 11:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- Ah, thanks very much for the clarifications (source for inscription, not description of the gravestone), clarification of footnote intended meaning in WP:Verifiability, in text attribution, etc. That helps and I can work on edits for the funerary monument citation/notes to the best of my ability, having not seen them myself.--CaroleHenson (talk) 17:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- And regarding the understandable confusion that you express in your 4th sentence: that the footnote appears in a para that starts with the apparently irrelevant "Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." I think anyone who regularly consults the policy (any of our policies actually) would agree that after ten years of tinkering by hundreds of people it's basically a jumbled mess that ought to be completely rewritten in a logical order. But there's no chance at all of that ever happening. WP:A was a noble attempt that failed. —SMALLJIM 11:23, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
I updated footnote #6 on Wikipedia:Verifiability based upon this discussion.--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:09, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- Can we get the grammar hammered out first please? Change made resulted in:
Needs some work to make it more clear and less ambiguous before it goes into the policy.Publicly available information, including documents in publicly-accessible archives, inscriptions on monuments, gravestones, etc., that are available for anyone to see may be cited according to WP:Primary sources. It does not include descriptions of gravestones or monuments.
Zad68
18:22, 11 July 2013 (UTC) - First attempt:
Is that what is meant?Publicly-available information - including documents in publicly-accessible archives, inscriptions on monuments and gravestones, and other items that are available for anyone to see - may be cited in accordance with WP:PRIMARY. Publicly available information does not include descriptions of gravestones or monuments.
Zad68
18:24, 11 July 2013 (UTC)- That looks really good to me. Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- Great! Updated...
Zad68
18:33, 11 July 2013 (UTC)- What about when this publicly-available information is not being used a primary source? Doesn't this wording imply that it still has to be cited in according with WP:Primary when it is not in fact primary? --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 19:07, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- Great! Updated...
- That looks really good to me. Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 18:30, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I'm sympathetic, but this is actually wrong. You can cite a monument, or any other visual artwork, as a primary source for what the artwork looks like. See WP:USEPRIMARY's examples. I admit that, unless the article is actually about said artwork, then you're almost never going to need to do this. But it is actually a "legal" use of a primary source. Saying "There is a statue of Stalin pointing towards the clock at the end of the square.{{cite sign}}" is actually acceptable. (You can't, however, cite the sign to say that it's called the дать часы statue.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:49, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- There was once a similar discussion on whether you could say "The house had a red door" and cite the house as the source, obviously someone could drive by the house, verify it was in fact red. I was actually against that, but consensus said, yes you can cite anything that is verifiable, regardless of whether it was something printed or visual. A monument would be the same.Camelbinky (talk) 20:45, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Re the last sentence: Publicly available information does not include descriptions of gravestones or monuments. It sounds like you are saying that a published description of a gravestone or monument (say in a book) would not be considered "publicly available"... which is patently absurd. If you mean that a gravestone would not be a reliable source for a description of itself, that is wrong too. Or do you mean something else entirely? Blueboar (talk) 21:18, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- Since it seems to have been the cause of some confusion, I should clarify what I meant when I said above (11 July) "...it doesn't apply to descriptions of monuments...". I wasn't very clear there, but it was in the context of Carole's questions. I was thinking of descriptions potentially made by us WP editors that go beyond the obvious Statue of Stalin example that WhatamIdoing mentioned. After going to see a statue or monument for ourselves, we shouldn't say, for instance (unless a secondary source has done so) that a statue stands upon a Carrera marble plinth supported by pillars in the Baroque style, or that a certain church monument bears the arms of Courtenay quartering Bohun, because "any educated person with access to the source but without further, specialized knowledge" (as mentioned in WP:PSTS > Primary sources > Policy) would probably not be able to verify those qualifiers. There's obviously a grey area here, but we should err on the side of caution to ensure that we don't stray into OR land. —SMALLJIM 21:48, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- Ah... in other words, you are concerned about WP:No original research... specifically in regards to gravestones, monuments and other physical objects. Blueboar (talk) 22:09, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, though it all relates back to that minor change that we discussed and I made to the policy last month. Carole and I had been dealing with some pretty extensive OR in this area, and I felt that clarification on this point would be useful – in fact it ended up with the original editor quoting that new footnote back to us, which was quite ... satisfying. —SMALLJIM 22:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- My I suggest that if clarification is needed, the place for such a clarification would be at WP:NOR and not here. From a WP:Verifiability perspective, a gravestone or monument would be treated no differently than any other primary source... limited in use, but OK to use within those limitations. Blueboar (talk) 16:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
- You're right in general terms except, of course, that a comment posted to WT:NOR wouldn't have been much help in trying to clear up the confusion expressed above. This is actually a fine example of how interrelated the V and NOR policies are and how (IMHO) they are artificially and unhelpfully separated. —SMALLJIM 20:45, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
- My I suggest that if clarification is needed, the place for such a clarification would be at WP:NOR and not here. From a WP:Verifiability perspective, a gravestone or monument would be treated no differently than any other primary source... limited in use, but OK to use within those limitations. Blueboar (talk) 16:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, though it all relates back to that minor change that we discussed and I made to the policy last month. Carole and I had been dealing with some pretty extensive OR in this area, and I felt that clarification on this point would be useful – in fact it ended up with the original editor quoting that new footnote back to us, which was quite ... satisfying. —SMALLJIM 22:39, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
- Ah... in other words, you are concerned about WP:No original research... specifically in regards to gravestones, monuments and other physical objects. Blueboar (talk) 22:09, 15 July 2013 (UTC)
Sources being online, edit inclusion
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Verifiability&diff=563792693&oldid=563777619
I'm trying to understand the revert. It wasn't on the basis of the sentence being necessary that I included it. I cited a recent Village Pump (policy) discussion (Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Are_online_references_mandatory_for_new_articles.3F), and further experience of the problem as the reason for inclusion. I agree that it is not necessary that the sentence be included, but I don't think that is sufficient reason for exclusion, because most sentences in the policy are unnecessary; the reason they are included is because they usefully respond to problems that occur. It's not necessary that we correct misconceptions, but it is useful. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 16:57, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree the revert was probably just a knee-jerk reaction to someone daring to change a policy. I believe Atethnekos' contribution should be returned. This is a perennial topic that I have seen come up for the last five years or so every so often. It needs to be stated clearly and with no wiggly room- offline sources are perfectly fine to cite and online sources are not MANDATORY.Camelbinky (talk) 20:02, 11 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with User:Bbb23 that it ought to be unnecessary. Then again, it ought to be unnecessary to have warnings that external links are not reliable sources scattered throughout WP:EL, and putting it six or eight such warnings has proven to be quite useful. Perhaps this is another case in which redundancy will help some people grasp the point. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:40, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I don't like adding language to policy unless it's necessary. Just because somone or even more than one person fails to grasp a certain point doesn't mean we have to address it. If we did, the policy would be even longer and harder to read than it already is. And, @Camelbinky, I'm not interested in your speculation as to why I do what I do. In any event, you're wrong.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:52, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- If people are failing to grasp a certain point, then it is necessary to improve the way that we address their confusion. That's the only reason we have written down any of these policies in the first place. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:58, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- Support inclusion of the point, but it should be stated in the positive and with helpful advice. For example: Printed sources are acceptable, but include quotations, brief summary, etc in the reference data to assist others in reviewing the use of the source. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:51, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- That will naturally be interpreted as "Printed sources are unacceptable unless you have included quotations, brief summary, etc in the reference data". Providing access to sources that you have and someone else doesn't is a courtesy; it is never required. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- I think it was already well stated that printed sources were acceptable, the problem is that some people fall under the impression that they by themselves are not adequate. I think a reminder that one can include summary and quotations in some circrumstances can be appropriate, but an unqualified command to include such is potentially very damaging. This is because when quoting copyrighted works, the reproduction of such material must always be discretionary and carefully included only toward the purpose of scholarship. If editors end up just including quotations from copyrighted works by rote, then the risk of copyright infringement would be quite high. The section does well in directing people to the WP:REX, which can help with accessing sources somewhat. There are other useful source-access pages on this project; I've started to put these together and other links at User:Atethnekos/Source_Access, and I am still interested in expanding that page with the help of others and eventually having a genuinely helpful page to which we can direct those seeking sources. --Atethnekos (Discussion, Contributions) 23:28, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
- It can also lead to stupid summaries: "President Joe opposes killing baby seals.ref Joe, President (2013) "I Oppose Killing Baby Seals", News. Summary: President Joe opposes killing baby seals. We explicitly state elsewhere that quotations are normally provided upon request and as a courtesy. We don't normally add these, and if you don't or can't provide quotations, that still doesn't invalidate the source or your use of it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- Agree. It is already a task to provide the source itself. A needed task but real work nonetheless. Let's do nothing to make it all the harder. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:28, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- It can also lead to stupid summaries: "President Joe opposes killing baby seals.ref Joe, President (2013) "I Oppose Killing Baby Seals", News. Summary: President Joe opposes killing baby seals. We explicitly state elsewhere that quotations are normally provided upon request and as a courtesy. We don't normally add these, and if you don't or can't provide quotations, that still doesn't invalidate the source or your use of it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 14:45, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
I think the problem in this instance was an Article for Creation reviewer was under the impression that although some of the sources for an article could be print-only, it was necessary that at least some of the sources be online (which is a bogus interpretation of the policy). So the question is whether this particular misconception is widespread enough that the acceptability of an article based only on print sources be spelled out. Jc3s5h (talk) 13:07, 13 July 2013 (UTC)
OK... I made an additional tweak which Bbb23 reverted here with the comment: "Please don't make it worse." No problem, but could you explain why you think my edit made it worse? I thought it made it better. Blueboar (talk) 16:48, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- The second part of your change just added unneeded verbosity. The first sentence ("The medium in which a source is published does not matter.") is worse than unnecessary. I assume you're trying to hit the reader over the head that a reliable source may be used whether it on an online medium or on a print medium, but because it's unnecessary, it may cause the reader to think there's yet another medium you're referring to. What medium is that? Water? Glass? Stone? Sarcasm aside, there are other media that might be sources, and your statement is simply overbroad and ambiguous at the same time.--Bbb23 (talk) 17:00, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Bbb23 - the change adds no more information, and does nothing for clarity. Conciseness is always preferable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:04, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- As others have stated there is a misunderstanding with how the wording has been currently stated. There have been many discussions on noticeboards, discussions that would have been unnecessary if this policy wording was indeed hitting the editors over the head that "ONLINE SOURCES ARE NOT PREFERRED OR MANDATORY OR REQUIRED OR NECESSARY". Blueboar, more than any other editor in this discussion has been most active in having to inform and educate editors over and over that verifiable does not mean "every editor, immediately, from their computer can verify every source" and this is one of those policy statements that causes the confusion that Blueboar and many others at places like WP:RS/N have to deal with on a weekly and monthly basis. If there is a problem, then we have a duty to fix it, conciseness is not mandatory nor is it preferred when it is standing in the way of improving editor's understanding of fundamental policy.Camelbinky (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- And an example of regarding medium being more than print or online is from several years ago a discussion at RS/N that Blueboar was involved with solving regarding whether a source that could only be found at the USS Missouri museum in Texas was allowed since an editor would have to physically go there to see and verify the source. It was correctly stated that it didn't matter if the editor in question had no way to verify it, as long as in theory AN editor could verify it at some point is the policy, not that every editor can.Camelbinky (talk) 17:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- I think that we need this clarification. If people understood this point, then we wouldn't be getting the same question over and over and over again. It's easier to add a sentence that directly addresses this point than it is for us to go fetch Bbb23 and Andy and make them personally explain it to each inexperienced user until they, too, have enough personal experience with this ongoing source of confusion to think that it merits a more comprehensive explanation. On the other hand, if the two of them aren't willing to trust the rest of us, including RSN regulars, when we say that this is a real problem, then we could make it be their problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:38, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- And an example of regarding medium being more than print or online is from several years ago a discussion at RS/N that Blueboar was involved with solving regarding whether a source that could only be found at the USS Missouri museum in Texas was allowed since an editor would have to physically go there to see and verify the source. It was correctly stated that it didn't matter if the editor in question had no way to verify it, as long as in theory AN editor could verify it at some point is the policy, not that every editor can.Camelbinky (talk) 17:18, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- As others have stated there is a misunderstanding with how the wording has been currently stated. There have been many discussions on noticeboards, discussions that would have been unnecessary if this policy wording was indeed hitting the editors over the head that "ONLINE SOURCES ARE NOT PREFERRED OR MANDATORY OR REQUIRED OR NECESSARY". Blueboar, more than any other editor in this discussion has been most active in having to inform and educate editors over and over that verifiable does not mean "every editor, immediately, from their computer can verify every source" and this is one of those policy statements that causes the confusion that Blueboar and many others at places like WP:RS/N have to deal with on a weekly and monthly basis. If there is a problem, then we have a duty to fix it, conciseness is not mandatory nor is it preferred when it is standing in the way of improving editor's understanding of fundamental policy.Camelbinky (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Bbb23 - the change adds no more information, and does nothing for clarity. Conciseness is always preferable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:04, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
Above, I was asked: "...it may cause the reader to think there's yet another medium you're referring to. What medium is that?"... actually there are multiple other mediums besides paper and electronic format that sources can come in. There's audio tape and vinyl recordings, several mediums for video ... hell, there's even carvings on rocks and impressions left in clay tablets. Sure, the vast majority of our sources will consist of written words in either paper or electronic form... but there are other mediums in which sources can come. What matters (in the context of this section) is whether the source is accessible to members of the general public ... in whatever form it comes. Blueboar (talk) 18:11, 14 July 2013 (UTC)
- Despite possibly targeting myself to calls of "ownership", I have to say that those wanting to make a change to wording of this policy have amply shown cause, whereas those who would keep wording at the status quo have shown no reasons beyond "it has always been this way" and "what problem?"... Those who would know what the problem is and work the RS/N as What and Blueboar do on a daily basis (and I used to years ago, and had the same problem even back then) have an overriding interest in changing policy. Consensus does not require all no-sayers to be placated nor gives them a veto through filibustering. The talk has gone its course.Camelbinky (talk) 16:32, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Does the medium matter?
Could we discuss my proposed new opening sentence for the section... "The medium in which a source is published does not matter." I understand that the primary point is to say that sources that are not online are acceptable, but I do think we need to clarify that offline sources can come in other forms than just paper. For example, I could see an article citing only audio or video recordings, which would be fine as long as those audio/video recordings are reliable, and located in a publicly accessible archive. Blueboar (talk) 16:26, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hm? You want a theoretical policy for a theoretical article that does not exist? Why? Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:33, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that a whole new sub-section is warranted – I think Atethnekos's original addition to 'Access to sources' may be enough. But if we do have such a section, its purpose would be to alert editors before they make the wrong assumption that an article must include at least one online source: which is the problem being reported here. To start the sub-section with an emphasis that anything that has been published counts as a source would obfuscate the main point making it less likely to sink in. I suspect that this emphasis may also have unwanted consequences, around the area of Notability for instance.
- I would start the sub-section with Atethnekos's: "There is no requirement that all or any sources for an article be available online" and then go on to other points, as consensus deems appropriate. —SMALLJIM 11:00, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hmmm... I don't mind starting off with that... it's the second part that caused my concern. The opposite of Online isn't "Paper" ... the opposite of Online is Offline - ie Physical (which includes but is not limited to paper books). Blueboar (talk) 13:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- "There is no requirement that all or any sources for an article be available online. Offline sources may include books, maps, audio, video, carvings, monuments, and other physical material that is used in a manner that would be consistent with any other editor viewing or listening to the same material. Be careful not to violate WP:OR by using specialist knowledge to expand on the source, best to be cautious and ask for help before going too far in using such a primary source."
- I believe that covers just about everything that recent threads have mentioned and concerns that have been brought up? Please feel free to comment and/or change that around.Camelbinky (talk) 15:05, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hmmm... I don't mind starting off with that... it's the second part that caused my concern. The opposite of Online isn't "Paper" ... the opposite of Online is Offline - ie Physical (which includes but is not limited to paper books). Blueboar (talk) 13:42, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- Concerns: this policy should not generate arguments, that assume any source in particular is "reliable," nor arguments that contravene the universal consensus that articles should be based primarily on "secondary sources." Moreover, it is not clear to me whether our guidance on "Citing" or on "Identifying reliable sources" have developed consensus conventions on how to identify, for example, the "authentic" recording (compare, with a book we have the ISBN number). Citing is a problem because it does not seem good enough to just say watch that two hour movie (or even that ten minute video), or listen to that thirteen hours of tape (an official transcript would help as would official time-stamps, but again that goes back to identifying the "official" copy). Sometimes it's just better to say less per WP:BEANS, when we are thinking theoretically, and on the high plain of general policy. Also, as noted above, this section policy should be written in the positive, because the positive covers more than the particular instance and guides better. but if we need the negative for emphasis something like: "Articles may be based entirely (or in part) on offline reliable sources; there is no general requirement that all or any sources for an article be available online." Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- I find it ridiculous that there is a serious problem that has been identified, and because a few don't want policy to ever be changed we are stuck with a conservative non-changing policy. There is a problem with the way the policy has been worded all this time, as identified by What and Blueboar, and yet we are back to having the policy state almost exactly what it was saying, despite Alanscottwalker's claim "Blueboar's was better"... Blueboar's last edit put it back to the original with barely any changes, so in effect Alan is stating there is no problem. Ridiculous. I guess we can add Alan to the list of users we can contact to come to the RS/N to explain over and over to new users every month that offline sources are ok.Camelbinky (talk) 02:56, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- Your attacks on other editors as in one of your recent edit summaries [2] suggests that you should reconsider being anywhere near a policy page or a help page. Of course, it's the consensus of everyone that changes to policy need to be conservative, because of unintended consequences (read the "stability is paramount" instruction at the top of this page). Blueboar's edit is better and clearer -- much better and has taken in the concerns of multiple editors, including Blueboar. That's how we do things, here. Alanscottwalker (talk) 11:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
Reliable source...but about a third party?
I'm reading a lot of biographies (of deceased people) and claims are often made that are supported by books written about other people. Although the book itself might be well-researched (let's take that as a given to save time), it's about Person A, not Person B. So, if Author X says Person A mentioned that Person B was gay, doesn't that still make it hearsay? I should also mention that neither Person A nor Person B are alive to dispute what Author X has written.
The claim could very well be true but I don't think this meets the requirements of a reliable source on the life of Person B...by the way, Person A was not claiming to have had a relationship with Person B, if that matters, just that they went to the same kind of parties where gay men associated with each other (this all happened 60-70 years ago).
This happens a lot in books about people in the entertainment industry and I'd welcome hearing something definitive about this from more experienced editors, specifically what WP policies I can read and point to for guidance. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 20:00, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
- Pending the arrival of the resident experts I'd say that subject to considerations of appropriate weight, we would attribute what Author X says, per WP:SUBSTANTIATE. Something like "In X's book My Life in Films (1979), he wrote that in 1920 A mentioned that B was gay."[full reference] or – better – 'In My Life in Films (1979) X wrote: "At that party in 1920, A told me that B was not the marrying type."'[full reference]. —SMALLJIM 21:10, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
- A lot depends on what article you are discussing all this in, and what the context is. Person A's opinion of B might be relevant to mention in the article on A, and yet not relevant to mention in the article about B. DUE WEIGHT is also an issue... Does mentioning A's opinion of B (as passed on to us through X) give A's opinion too much weight? Blueboar (talk) 00:13, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- Agree with the other responses. Also I'd like to note that two elements of your question complicate it a bit. You said that your example was about a deceased person, yet the wording of your question did not include that as a condition (exclude living persons) and so it could include wp:blp situations, a special case where policy imposes a higher standard. Second, the example includes a major and potentially controversial statement (that someone was/is gay) which could also raise the bar, doubly so if a wp:blp situation. North8000 (talk) 14:41, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
- This is a more common occurrence than one might think, and I hope everyone will excuse me if I don't use actual examples here. Generally speaking our BLP policy about living persons still applies for recently dead and that can be up to 2 years. See WP:BDP. However, there is also the consideration of whether or not the source is from a reputable publisher (not a vanity press) and if the material can be considered creating a situation of/or prolonging victimization. See WP:AVOIDVICTIM. I believe the best policy we have to cover this is: "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.". See WP:PUBLICFIGURE. If the belief, accusation or understanding about the figure is well documented, it may be included, think Rock Hudson(OK, there's an example I can use). If, on the other, this is the only source or all sources are not reliable, tabloid journalism, vanity press or self published etc., then it should simply not be used.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:23, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- I think that that is good advice . North8000 (talk) 00:33, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
- This is a more common occurrence than one might think, and I hope everyone will excuse me if I don't use actual examples here. Generally speaking our BLP policy about living persons still applies for recently dead and that can be up to 2 years. See WP:BDP. However, there is also the consideration of whether or not the source is from a reputable publisher (not a vanity press) and if the material can be considered creating a situation of/or prolonging victimization. See WP:AVOIDVICTIM. I believe the best policy we have to cover this is: "If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well-documented, it belongs in the article – even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out.". See WP:PUBLICFIGURE. If the belief, accusation or understanding about the figure is well documented, it may be included, think Rock Hudson(OK, there's an example I can use). If, on the other, this is the only source or all sources are not reliable, tabloid journalism, vanity press or self published etc., then it should simply not be used.--Amadscientist (talk) 00:23, 20 July 2013 (UTC)
"Be careful not to violate WP:OR by using specialist knowledge to expand on the source, best to be cautious and ask for help before going too far in using such a primary source"
I have reverted CamelBinky's edit to the 'Offline sources' section [3] as it simply doesn't make sense:
- Articles may be based entirely (or in part) on offline reliable sources; there is no general requirement that all or any sources for an article be available online. Offline sources may include books, maps, audio, video, carvings, monuments, and other physical material that is used in a manner that would be consistent with any other editor viewing or listening to the same material. Be careful not to violate WP:OR by using specialist knowledge to expand on the source, best to be cautious and ask for help before going too far in using such a primary source.
Which are the 'primary sources' referred to here? Some offline sources may be primary, others secondary - there seems to be no reason to go off on a tangent and raise this here at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:34, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
- Removed the offending statement. Good to know all I have to do is edit something in order to get Andy to discuss something.Camelbinky (talk) 23:41, 19 July 2013 (UTC)
- A polite request on my talk page might have worked. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:44, 19 July 2013 (UTC)