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Proabivouac is absolutely right. I have watched this situation with alarm - I assumed there were protections for RWI which are not, in fact, in existence. [[User:John1951|John1951]] 10:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC) |
Proabivouac is absolutely right. I have watched this situation with alarm - I assumed there were protections for RWI which are not, in fact, in existence. [[User:John1951|John1951]] 10:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC) |
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:For anyone wondering what Proabivouac is talking about, it might be instructive to note that the 'harassment' seems to consist of Wikipedia administrators and arbitrators posting formal administrative notices that contained [[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]]'s former username (which is also his real name), in order to inform him and others that [[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] was violating arbitration sanctions imposed on that previous username. What these 'libelous attacks' consist of hasn't, to my knowledge, been made explicit. The ongoing discussion is, for the moment, [ |
:For anyone wondering what Proabivouac is talking about, it might be instructive to note that the 'harassment' seems to consist of Wikipedia administrators and arbitrators posting formal administrative notices that contained [[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]]'s former username (which is also his real name), in order to inform him and others that [[User:Proabivouac|Proabivouac]] was violating arbitration sanctions imposed on that previous username. What these 'libelous attacks' consist of hasn't, to my knowledge, been made explicit. The ongoing discussion is, for the moment, [[Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#User:Proabivouac|here]]. --[[User:Aim Here|Aim Here]] 10:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC) |
Revision as of 10:56, 14 September 2007
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Non-latin usernames, revisited
The issue of non-latin usernames has come up again, with the User:だってばよ request.
Some editors, myself included, favour disallowing non-latin characters in usernames because they violate the policy on confusing usernames, since they cannot be read by a majority of our users. Others point to the section that states that non-latin usernames are allowed.
While it's true that the whole world doesn't speak English, this is the English Wikipedia. It seems eminently fair to require all usernames to be readable by English speakers. Exploding Boy 23:59, 8 June 2007 (UTC)
- Interesting proposal, but no - we can't do it. Unified login is coming in soon, so we have to let non latin character usernames edit, as some will be coming from countries that don't use atin characters. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:03, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
copied from WT:RFCN:
Proposal
Please see m:Help:Unified login before commenting here
My considerations:
- Non-Latin usernames allowed clearly by WP:U mainly because of m:Help:Unified login (which would otherwise be rendered useless)
- Naturally very few people on earth have the capacity of reading all scripts, so there are bound to be unintelligible usernames (for most/many/some/few --doesn't matter)
Solution which is already foreseen: WP:U asks politely to tweak signature to Latin.
IMHO the above solution is insufficient, and creates lots of windows for numerous trolls. It also makes it hard for users to locate a username which they cannot type.
Proposed Solution:
- WP:SIG to clearly state mandatory Latin sigs (for example with the transliteration or translation of the foreign username).
- WP:UP to clearly require mandatory Latin user redirects of the same signed name to the foreign userpage and talkpage.
- WP:UP to clearly require a mandatory explanation on the foreign userpage concerning the chosen name, the signature, and the redirects that lead to it, by means of a template which will be created for this specific reason.
- Third users to be able to create (and possibly protect) Latin-username-redirects (to the foreign-usernames) to help themselves (and others) navigate/locate the foreign-usernames.
- WP:U to briefly mention the above, without implying that users failing to comply will be permabanned.
That, proposed by a Greek. NikoSilver 00:17, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- For an example of what that will do, please see the userpage of User:Παράδειγμα who signs as Paradigma, and has redirects from User:Paradigma and User talk:Paradigma.
- I support restricting usernames to the Latin-1 character set because this is an English wiki and most people cannot type foreign characters on their keyboards to do things like directly go to a user page. I see no problem with using non-Latin scripts as part of a sig. If were to demand use of Devanagari my username would be बुद्धिप्रिय, by the way. Buddhipriya 00:25, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, we can't restrict it due to unified log-in comming very shortly. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- How do you know very shortly? There seem to have been no updates since November 2006. Secretlondon 23:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks Ryan, but this is not sufficient apparently. See above, I hope that solves it. NikoSilver 00:32, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, we can't restrict it due to unified log-in comming very shortly. Ryan Postlethwaite 00:27, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
I support mandatory latin sigs here, on this version of Wikipedia. It's hard enough trying to read some people's user names, with all the bells and whistles people insist on attaching, and the weird characters they insert. This is the English language Wikipedia; users here must be able to read each other's user names.
Really, I don't see what's so useful about the unified login anyway. I also edit the Japanese Wikipedia sometimes, and I have to login there separately. It's not a big deal, and the unified login system won't remove the need to do some things separately on each local site a user edits. Exploding Boy 05:16, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Criticizing the unified usernames idea is not constructive. Anyways, we have a good suggestion from NikoSilver, which I support. However, there's no reason to require that the signature be a transliteration or translation. I think any latin character signature will do. nadav (talk) 07:59, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, good point. I obviously overestimated the possibility of someone using foreign usernames that are disallowed here (for example curses in foreign languages); but nobody guarantees they won't lie in the first place. I guess it can go, and be evaluated on separate bases. I'm striking it (modifs in purple color). NikoSilver 16:08, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Which suggestion of NikoSilver's do you support? Ok, so let's say that someone has the user name 猫. If they use the signature "Neko," and I type "user:Neko" into the search box, will I be able to find that user? Exploding Boy 16:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, (if the second bullet is also mandatory). User:Neko will redirect to User:猫. The only problem remaining is that it will still read 猫 (not Neko) in history pages, but you can always click to see it's them (no biggie, I guess). NikoSilver 17:38, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Ok, because currently that doesn't seem to work. Similar issues have come up with signatures as well, where users have signatures that are different from their user names, because there's so much potential for confusion, especially since some users change their signatures frequently. I think this makes it clearer: the best option is to require latin-character user names right off the bat. Exploding Boy 17:44, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- It doesn't because there's no redirect in the name that appears on the sig. Click User:N! to see what will happen. NikoSilver 17:50, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Edit by NikoSilver under new user id: Please see what happens with User:Παράδειγμα (Paradigma). Check that User:Paradigma and User talk:Paradigma redirect where appropriate. Also check their proposed signature: Paradigma (talk) 18:40, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- I tested the links and they appear to work correctly (assuming that correct result is redirection to the Greek-language version of the pages). This is an interesting method. I am unsure if this method will address the real problem on the English language Wikipedia, which is that most users on it will only be able to understand English. For example, if I did a similar redirection to my username in Devanagari it is quite possible that users who followed the link from User:Buddhipriya to User:बुद्धिप्रिय might become confused because they would not be expecting to see that result. From a usability point of view, arriving at a place you do not recognize after clicking a link is potentially confusing. But the technique you have demonstrated is quite interesting. Some scripts, including Devanagari, are not universally-supported on all computers, so I am also curious if in my example there are some viewers who only see little boxes where my username would be. ॐ गं गणपतये नमः Buddhipriya 19:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- Shall we add to the proposal then:
- I tested the links and they appear to work correctly (assuming that correct result is redirection to the Greek-language version of the pages). This is an interesting method. I am unsure if this method will address the real problem on the English language Wikipedia, which is that most users on it will only be able to understand English. For example, if I did a similar redirection to my username in Devanagari it is quite possible that users who followed the link from User:Buddhipriya to User:बुद्धिप्रिय might become confused because they would not be expecting to see that result. From a usability point of view, arriving at a place you do not recognize after clicking a link is potentially confusing. But the technique you have demonstrated is quite interesting. Some scripts, including Devanagari, are not universally-supported on all computers, so I am also curious if in my example there are some viewers who only see little boxes where my username would be. ॐ गं गणपतये नमः Buddhipriya 19:34, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- WP:U to clearly require a mandatory explanation on the foreign userpage concerning the chosen name, the signature, and the redirects that lead to it.
- This may be a little redundant, since the foreign page (if redirected from) will read above "Redirected by User:Paradigma", but I admit the comment is in rather small font and may go unnoticed. Comments? NikoSilver 19:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- We should create a template specifically for this purpose. nadav (talk) 21:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- The template is a fantastic idea. I'm adding the proposal above shortly. NikoSilver 21:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- I even added a proposed template text in User:Παράδειγμα. Please modify mercilessly (needs some code expert too for the variables). NikoSilver 21:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- The template is a fantastic idea. I'm adding the proposal above shortly. NikoSilver 21:21, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- We should create a template specifically for this purpose. nadav (talk) 21:47, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- This may be a little redundant, since the foreign page (if redirected from) will read above "Redirected by User:Paradigma", but I admit the comment is in rather small font and may go unnoticed. Comments? NikoSilver 19:41, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
This doesn't solve the problem of characters not displaying properly. Characters in certain scripts appear for me as a bunch of squares, like: 口口口口口. I can easily imagine a scenario where several users with non-latin usernames all editing the same page could create chaos. Exploding Boy 22:53, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
- The problem with characters not rendering correctly is so common with Hinduism and India articles that many of the pages have links to the following page which is just to help users figure out how to render Indic scripts: Help:Multilingual_support_(Indic). The little boxes are symtoms of Unicode characters that do not exist in fonts available on the user computers. Buddhipriya 01:14, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
Guys, please. Let's all change attitude from "here, there's one more problem" to "that's what we can do about it". We are faced with some facts which are beyond our control:
We are compelled to accept Non-Latin signatures by force majeure. End of story!!
Now, I sympathize with the argument that two distinct same-letter-long foreign usernames may appear as identical same-length-squares in one's history page if he hasn't installed Hindu/Greek/Aramaic/Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Arabic fonts, but unless you have something to propose to solve the problem, then this is not helpful. I think my proposal above deals with most of the circumstances, and is the least that we can do for now. If you have anything to add, I am all ears for proposals, but commenting on the appropriateness of m:Help:Unified login is pointless. NikoSilver 21:17, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- I fully support this reasonable, pragmatic approach. If we all agree, will this be enough consensus to change the policy? nadav (talk) 21:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
The simplest solution is to require latin-character user names. Exploding Boy 23:24, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, I don't want to indulge into meaningless discussions over issues for which we are not eligible to discuss or decide. I think that the proposal above is the mē cheíron véltiston, especially for you guys that want to wipe all non-Latin scripts from user existence. Bluntly, it's this, or nothing. NikoSilver 23:47, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
- I don't want to go bold in editing policy, so if there's anyone with an objection, please state it here. If no objections are posted for another three days, I'll go on and modify WP:U myself to include all three points proposed above. It is really frustrating that people sometimes jump in to state their objections only after someone has made the edit, so please spare us the back and forth by commenting here within this reasonable timeframe. NikoSilver 11:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
People keep saying things like "this or nothing," and I support "this proposal." What do they mean? There are several options there that I can see, first of all, and second, why is it "this or nothing"? The obvious solution is to require latin-character usernames. By the way, it's interesting that you linked to that list of Greek phrases; most of them were unreadable for me, with little squares in many of the words. That type of thing is exactly what we want to avoid with usernames. Exploding Boy 16:12, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- I don't know why you have to be told by three people numerous times that rejecting non-Latin names is not an option. Do you understand this? NikoSilver 16:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
No, it's not even clear that the unified login is going forward, and if it does, there's STILL no reason not to restrict usernames to latin characters only. Exploding Boy 16:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- I asked specifically for that purpose in meta and got the response to check bugzilla:57. Everything looks like this is happening from moment to moment. Do you have different feedback? Also, please describe how the "STILL" comment is going to happen. NikoSilver 16:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
There's currently no consensus about the unified login. I've just read the talk page, and people are still talking about the feasability of the scheme, and about issues just of this sort. It looks to be a long way from being implemented. Given that it's easy to have all one's edits transferred from username to username, the best solution would be to move forward with the policy and state that non-latin usernames are not allowed. That could easily be changed if the unified login ever came to fruition. Exploding Boy 16:45, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- I only see apparently you, so "people" is an overstatement. Frankly, I see no good coming from this discussion, and will stop here. NikoSilver 17:02, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I wrote the last part concerning user names, but if you trouble to read the entire talk page you'll discover that there is currently no consensus, so you can drop the "*sigh*" from your edit summaries, ok? Exploding Boy 18:18, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Unified login is targeted for mediawiki version 1.10, the very next version which is already overdue. See mw:MediaWiki roadmap.
- I see 2 issues here
- people not being able to type the name of another user, eg: to talk about what they said earlier in the talk page. This could be solved by requiring at least some English text in their sig.
- Not being able to find their userpage. This could be fixed by making their sig a link to their userpage as normal.
- So a good sig would be बुद्धिप्रिय Buddhipriya. Are there other problems, or is this fixed already? --h2g2bob (talk) 18:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
None of this solves the problem of different users with non-latin usernames whose user and user talk pages are still unreadable. Requiring people to have latin-character sigs with redirects is an acknowledgement that a problem exists; what happens when I'm redirected to a page with a user name that looks like this: 口口口口口? And what if many people have non-latin user names, all of which don't display properly? No amount of signature modification will fix that. Exploding Boy 20:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- The policy changes proposed above are too draconian, and won't be enforced; the old way of doing things (making suggestions and explaining the reasoning) is better. Seriously: a foreign user shows up and doesn't make redirects or a signature. So what? If they're making constructive edits and aren't needing to get involved in complicated discussions, there's no need to force them to do anything, (and none of the above would make a latin name show up in a page history, but there are links there anyway). If they are in some discussions, they should be asked to make a readable signature, so that other users don't get confused. If they're going to make lots of contributions here they will most likely be reasonable people and agree, so no need to force them with a draconian policy. And if someone doesn't want to obey, so what, I don't imagine anyone would be willing to block someone for this, unless the user had other behavior issues. After all, usernames that are a bit confusing are really not that big of a problem to anyone. Keep in mind that these are very likely established editors on other Wiki projects, and we should not be trying to keep them from helping. Mangojuicetalk 20:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
What's "draconian" about requiring people to have user names that everyone can read? Exploding Boy 20:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- "Requiring" it. What do you suggest we do to people who don't have usernames that people can read, and don't follow the requirements? Currently, the default for violations of WP:U is indefinite blocking. If you're suggesting that we go a completely different way, I might not call it draconian, but the way this all reads now, it sounds like those who don't comply will have their accounts blocked. That's draconian in my book. Mangojuicetalk 20:43, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Well, if they're refusing to follow the policy, which is what you seem to be describing, then they should be blocked, don't you agree? Exploding Boy 20:46, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- I absolutely disagree. Look, we don't even block vandals on their first edit, we warn them and try to let them know it's okay to edit Wikipedia while trying to correct their behavior. Even then, we are likely to give people second, third, fourth chances. In fact, just about every behavior issue on Wikipedia is handled where blocking is a last resort, and we accept inherently that we should only be blocking people for being seriously disruptive, especially non-temporary blocks. And yet, here, a much more harsh policy is being proposed for a violation of a common-sense behavior request that is a far lower priority than things like not making personal attacks or not vandalizing. Mangojuicetalk
This is a very rational input from Mangojuice. For the record, I hadn't thought of what should be done to people "who refuse to obey". I agree that permablocking is indeed too hard. Polite suggestions may help better, and serious vandals often get caught further down the road. How about we just state these three in the #Proposal above in policy and then have the "legal background" in order to politely ask them? Let's just leave punishment for non compliance an open issue. NikoSilver 21:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
On a side note, I hate it that Exploding Boy wouldn't take the word of three users for it and we had to call the cavalry to convince him that m:Unified login is an uncontrollable reality. NikoSilver 21:17, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- The policy states that in cases of inappropriate usernames "you will be asked to choose a new username; in egregious cases, your account will simply be permanently blocked." Seems clear.
- To Niko, I object to your sneaky redirect, above. I wasn't failing to assume good faith; there's no consensus about the Unified login yet. Again: read the Unified login talk page. It may be that if people want to use the Unified login they will have use latin characters. We don't know yet. Exploding Boy 21:32, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
About what? Have you read the discussion on [1]? Exploding Boy 21:56, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- How difficult is it for you to understand that Wikimedia Foundation Statements® are not subject to any amount of debate? Did anybody ask you if e.g. you like the WP logo? NikoSilver 22:00, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to ask you one last time to stop writing offensive edit summaries ("sigh"; "double sigh") and using sneaky redirects. When you've finished making a big production of being irritated, perhaps you can read that discussion page and understand that there is currently no consensus about how the Unified login will work or how it will affect user names. Exploding Boy 22:09, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- @Mangojuice: What would you say if we alternatively added those bullets above to WP:UP and WP:SIG respectively (which are guidelines) and may help avoid the permaban issue, while also help the others advise users who do not comply, based on some sort of rule? NikoSilver 22:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- If the "rule" was put in WP:SIG rather than here, I don't think there'd be a presumption that violating the rule would result in a long-term block. So yeah, that's a good solution. It should probably be mentioned here as a non-infraction, though, to be clear. Mangojuicetalk 22:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks; I modified the #Proposal to reflect that (I also removed the purple comments etc since they're obviously acceptable). NikoSilver 22:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- (ec) I've read through the whole issue from top to toe now, Niko and I feel your three bullets above look like a reasonable compromise and something I could endorse - Alison ☺ 23:01, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Alison, they are now four :-). Now we're left with only one problem. See the following example history page:
- (cur) (last) 23:01, June 11, 2007 口口口口口 (Talk | contribs) (179,755 bytes) (→Proposal - comment)
- (cur) (last) 22:59, June 11, 2007 口口口口口 (Talk | contribs) m (179,345 bytes) (→Proposal - p->P)
- (cur) (last) 22:58, June 11, 2007 口口口口口 (Talk | contribs) (179,345 bytes) (→Proposal - modified)
- (cur) (last) 22:53, June 11, 2007 Mangojuice (Talk | contribs) (179,110 bytes) (→Proposal)
- (cur) (last) 22:13, June 11, 2007 NikoSilver (Talk | contribs) (178,665 bytes) (→Proposal - @Mangojuice)
- (cur) (last) 22:09, June 11, 2007 口口口口口 (Talk | contribs) (178,297 bytes) (→Proposal)
This may show to one who hasn't installed X font. The worst part is that all four (in this case) "口口口口口" looking users could actually be different people. Does anyone have an idea on how this too could be sorted out? Popups would help, but not all have it/want it. NikoSilver 23:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
- Eep! This sounds like a developer problem. Wonder is it possible to render the usernames into some unique UTF-8 format, that could still be unique, yet (semi-) legible? It's a tricky problem ... - Alison ☺ 04:07, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- 1) We have to allow non-Latin usernames
- 2) Even if we were allowed to block non-latin usernames (which we're not) there'd still be usernames with non-latin characters existing on EN-Wiki. Username policy tends not to be retro-active, so those non-Latin chars would be grandfathered in.
- 3) The username policy will probably need lots of tweaking to 'fix' stuff to fit with non-Latin chars. For example, what does "closely resemble another username" mean in the context of an alphabet that I have no familiarity with?
- 4) The technical stuff (fonts etc) needs some clear, easy, walkthrough to allow users to update their system. Many people have no need to install fonts for other languages, and when they do they tend to install a limited set of fonts. It can see that it'd be a bit frustrating to have to install tens of megabytes of fonts just to be able to see usernames on wiki.
- 5) The U page says (at the moment) that can't always see names written in another character set. This isn't the full truth - how do I get to the userpage of ???, and how do I disambiguate the useful contributor ???? from the nasty troll/vandal ????.
- Just to make it clear: I fully support NikoSilver's proposal. Dan Beale 07:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Dan. I think we should put a note in WT:SIG and WT:UP for more input, since technically it is these guidelines that will be modified the most if this proposal goes through. Will do now. NikoSilver 09:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- I believe that I heard an idea that would include the UserID next to the User name, thus allowing us to distinguish between 口口口口口 and 口口口口口 in the history. Bastique 15:20, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
- That would save it indeed. Although I am convinvinced that most users dealing with e.g. Korean articles get into the trouble to install Korean fonts. What do you think about the rest of the points Bastique? Should we encourage foreign users to help us navigate with the #Proposal above, or is it too much to ask? If the proposal went through, what would you do if someone persistently disobeyed? NikoSilver 16:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
I can't support this proposal. I doubt we'll even have a significant issue with non-lat sigs and pages, and I sure as hell can't see us mandating this kind of thing. Maybe make it recommended, but anyone who wants to "disobey" damn well has a right to. I don't see a significant benefit (due to the lack of significant problem), and can see this just pissing a lot of people off because some joe shmoe says "you have non-latin characters in your username, and we're gonna block you because of that". If someone can't report some user for vandalism because of their font support, then install the required fonts and get with the program. We're Wikipedia, for crying out loud, and we don't live in the stone age. -- Ned Scott 06:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- A similar consideration was brought up by Mangojuice 3-4 comments above. He mainly objected to the fact that inclusion of such rules in WP:U (policy) would automatically result to permablocking of the violators, which he found too strict. The proposal was modified to suggest that WP:UP and WP:SIG (guidelines) were altered instead. I too feel that permablocking (or blocking in general for that matter) is too hard (well, except if we see apparent WP:POINT abuse by means of the foreign username). NikoSilver 08:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- Astonishingly, there are increasing examples of users with non-Latin names. Two recent examples only slipped in WP:RFCN (although they are allowed) [2], [3], and check also how many there are in Greek and Cyrillic/Arabic/Hindu. Things are about to get much "worse" (scare quotes because my mother tongue has a non-Latin script and because I actually endorse them) with m:Help:Unified login coming shortly. In that sense, this #Proposal is preemptive, which is especially important since username violations that have been "grandfathered to" (i.e. problematic usernames created before policy tweak that bans them) tend to be forgiven, and stay. NikoSilver 08:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- Their main objection to users who have politely requested to tweak their sigs (or create user redirects) was that "there's no such rule". The reason of the proposal is to give some sort of "legal background" to those who want to advise a user to help them navigate easier to locate their name (since they can't type it, and can't remember how it even looks). Given all that, would you suggest we reword the proposal a little to reflect that, or you still want to scrap it? NikoSilver (or ΝικοΣίλβερ, or НикоСилвер, or ..., go figure how to type it in Arabic/Chinese/Hindu/Korean/Japanese to find me without a link, or even refer to me in a talkpage if you can't read how 猫猫猫 is even pronounced!) 08:35, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- We're asking users on ENWIKI to have a latin sig, do any of the other wikis ask their users to have a non-latin sig? Does, eg: JapanWiki ask users to romajify or kanjify their sigs? It'd be interesting to see if other wikis have had this problem, and how they've dealt with it. Dan Beale 14:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
- Undoubtedly, the Latin alphabet is universally recognizable by most, so I wouldn't expect restrictions for that specifically. I would expect restrictions for e.g. Korean and Arabic in the Greek wiki and vice versa. The Greek wiki does not even have a SIG guideline yet, and the UPage/UName ones are sort of primitive too. Obviously, the necessity for these rules is proportional to the traffic, plus ENWIKI seems to be the favorite universal POV battleground for most foreign users (and trolls). In my experience very few foreigners (and trolls!) have visited ELWIKI (EL for Greek) and to tell you the truth I'd be surprised a lot to see a Japanese editor there. NikoSilver 14:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Dan Beale has raised some very good points here. Exploding Boy 16:41, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Thinking more about this, I can see supporting it as a strong recommendation, and/or even allowing others to make a redirects, etc, if said user doesn't wish to make them, stuff like that. The ban part really put me off, but other than that I can see the value in the guideline. -- Ned Scott 02:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- Thank you Ned. Your input for allowing others to create redirects is very valuable and should have obviously been included earlier! I'll add it and hope everybody agrees too. NikoSilver 14:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- I just found out that to add "East Asian" language support to Windows XP a user has a 230 megabyte download. Dan Beale 09:53, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- The file should be on their original Windows installation CD. Anyone who has to download it has a pirated copy. There's no reason for us to worry about supporting users with pirated OSes. -N 10:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
- Very many people don't get install CDs, they have preinsalled OSs with a "recovery" partition. Sometimes the recovery partition is hidden in an HPA. Many users won't have ready access to the install CD, but they're not pirates. Dan Beale-Cocks 01:34, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
White Cat's approach
- My computer can properly display practically all languages, even though they aren't silly squares Arabic script Hebrew script and nearly all non-Latin script are unintelligible to me. So this Windows CD thing is beyond logic. It isn't like your understanding of the unintelligible text will change if you install the necesary files. If you do not have a specific language installed, it is your own fault. You reading the users username is not a critical aspect of RC patrolling.
- Assuming you aren't seeing boxes, even a 4 year old has this level of pattern recognition to differentiate the contributions of different users with non-Latin text.
- I would however recommend (not require) the usage of lain text in sigs for obvious reasons. However your discomfort is not a reason to create policy. Non-Latin usernames are not disruptive and I have seen no convincing evidence to the contrary so far.
-- Cat chi? 15:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikicat's approach
- User-option to show non-Latin-text usernames (and other fonts) as images on Latin-based wiki, and vice-versa, perhaps reusing current CAPTCHA text-to-image calls. (Read more here) Then...
- When referring to the author, their wikimarkup image-tag can be copied just like their text. Also, there could be a number appended to the text in the image as a shorthand reference, perhaps made visible as needed per page by a wikimarkup directive. Thus...
- No need (or desire) to ban non-Latin-char usernames. And finally...
- Little boxes on the nil-side: Some say, if one doesn't have the right language-font installed, it's their own fault. However, if the text is nothing but little boxes, one cannot even TELL what language-font to install (as in the "example history page" above). Further, installing third-party things on Windows can be dangerous, so one must not only search for the font, but also an apparently trustworthy site to download it from. --- A lot of work to view a few names and words.
- PS: (from above) "I am also curious if in my example there are some viewers who only see little boxes where my username would be. ॐ गं गणपतये नमः Buddhipriya 19:34, 9 June 2007"
- Indeed, nothing but little boxes that all look just the same. But, in the EDITOR they are suddenly all perfectly readable Devanagari! (like g?pty nm), unlike the "example history page" above, which remains boxes, and the "User:Παράδειγμα|Paradigma" which remains Greek (until copied to a non-wiki textbox).
- Wikicat (temp-2k7) 09:45, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Biting newcomers
Copied from WP:VPP Melsaran 18:38, 9 August 2007 (UTC) I was disappointed recently to see a particularly unfortunate example of overzealous rule-enforcement drive off a harmless and potentially very positive newcomer Talk:The Discarded Image. Whatever happened to the 'Welcome Committee'? We seem to have thrown out the idea that we should welcome new users and try to help them figure things out in favor of trying to figure out how quickly we can delete their material and ban them. I'm saddened by this, and would like to see the idea of welcoming new users re-invigorated. Trollderella 15:15, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's quite distressing. I think username blocks are one of the most misused admin powers. The username policy emphasizes asking newbies nicely to change their name unless their name is "blatantly inappropriate", but here we have two admins who were willing to indefinitely block a newbie who was trying to contribute to WP, just for having an unclear username, without any warnings or discussion first. I consider both the admin who placed the block and the admin who declined the unblock to share the responsibility. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 15:50, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- I didn't block or decline the unblock, but I did have some interactions with this user about the content they were trying to contribute and I agree that there was perhaps less explanation than there should have been. But I think the username block was appropriate. When one has extended strings of characters it's impossible to tell the difference between Gggggggggggggg and Ggggggggggggggg (that's 14 g's and 15 g's in case you don't want to count). Autoblock was disabled, so they were more than able to create a new account.
- Perhaps the bigger problem is whatever information people are given when their username isn't available. The user mentioned that they hadn't been able to think of a username that wasn't already taken, so they made a random name because they didn't feel like, in their words, "jumping through hoops" about a username. Perhaps we need a link to usurpation or something on the welcome screen, or a more newbie-oriented explanation about what to do if their name is taken. I think, though, that their requested name was probably fine. They just never came back to Wikipedia. Natalie 16:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- So, I just went to try to re-register my own username, to see what screen appears when someone requests a username already in use. The only thing that appears right in front of the users face is a box that says "Error: Username already in use. Please choose another name." (that may not be verbatim). Underneath the create account box was a generic list of things your username cannot contain, and some links to information about choosing one's real name. Repeating characters was not in the list of things usernames can't contain, even though it is verbotten in the username policy. So maybe that needs to change. 71.63.240.87 16:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC) And I suck and forgot to log back in. Sigh. Natalie 16:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- Perhaps the bigger problem is whatever information people are given when their username isn't available. The user mentioned that they hadn't been able to think of a username that wasn't already taken, so they made a random name because they didn't feel like, in their words, "jumping through hoops" about a username. Perhaps we need a link to usurpation or something on the welcome screen, or a more newbie-oriented explanation about what to do if their name is taken. I think, though, that their requested name was probably fine. They just never came back to Wikipedia. Natalie 16:20, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for chiming in Natalie, my point is that I don't think blocking that user was in the best interests of building an encyclopedia. The risk of allowing that name to exist for a few days and discussing it with the user before blocking was small, and I am sure that they would have agreed to change it (indeed it seems they filed a name change request). Blocking them is such a blunt instrument, and causes resentment. A softer approach would have resulted in a better outcome.
- I think the bigger issue is the attitude that any infraction of any rule must be dealt with by immediate blocking. Letting that username exist until the user was a little more established and understood a little more would do no harm. Trollderella 16:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- Understandable, although I still think the same end effect could be accomplished if the blocking admin had written a personal message, if the unblock decliner had written a longer explanation, or if I had checked back with the user earlier (we had already interacted about the article they were trying to add). One important note is that this was before an admin could see a users deleted edits by username (a majorly helpful addition to the software), so the blocking admin didn't necessarily know that the user had been trying to contribute positively and was already irritated.
- In my experience, most admins give quite a bit of leeway until they are burned too many times. Most of the rules have been set up the way they are because people have been abusing some loophole for 5 years. New users, though, don't necessarily know this, which is why I think the "create account" screen should have a little more information. We seem to assume that a new user has been editing anonymously or something, when they could be an academic who has heard of Wikipedia but never used it and in fact doesn't use the internet that much. Basically, I think the problem is that we assume that our processes are intuitive, when they really are not. Natalie 17:08, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't disagree, I just think that the most underused admin tool seems to be a polite and civil message on the talk page. We seem to jump to bans and policies, and forget that we are dealing with people. Trollderella 17:12, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Answer me this. Doesn't a username-blocked user see the {{Usernameblocked}} template expanded out? If so, doesn't that template give all the information they need - including a link to WP:U - all wrapped in a friendly message. Isn't that true? If so, what is the problem? Did the person not read the message? I fail to see what the problem is or why an admin now has to personally hold the hand of all 100 or so people that are username-blocked on any given day. If s/he was annoyed that their article was deleted, they should have written more of an article than a one-liner that could have been replaced by a single link on the C.S. Lewis page. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:33, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- What they see, as far as I can tell, is something instructing them to make a request for an unblock or for a name-change. It seems the user did this, and got more oblique responses. The question is not 'can these actions be justified in policy', but 'did these admin actions further the building of an encyclopedia'? It's pretty clear to me that they didn't. Trollderella 23:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wknight, the user only sees those directions if you put them there. You didn't put them there, you put the template syntax in a plain old log summary, so all the user saw was the literal text {{usernameBlocked}}. But also, just because there are directions to fix an overzealous indefinite block doesn't mean that the block was a good idea. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 06:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- The template does get expanded when they try to edit after being blocked (yes I confirmed it just now). Why don't you come up with a consensus for how much time we need to spend with our shoulder around the 100 or so people that create dumb user names each day - before we block them anyway of course. —Wknight94 (talk) 09:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Why are you so interested in blocking newbies for having dumb names? How does it help Wikipedia? If you don't like interacting with users with dumb names, you don't have to, so let someone else do it. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 16:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wow. Are you now forbidding only me from blocking people whose names violate WP:U? Laughable. If you want WP:U changed, say that and stop singling me out, please. I'm just doing what has been documented as policy. Personally, very few people's names bother me. If someone wants to call themselves User:JoeSchmo@hotmail.com or User:Super Ultra Mega Bob of Waverly Drive from Mars146366, it wouldn't bother me but WP:U says it's not allowed so I block them. If you get someone to listen and change WP:U, I'll be happy to walk side-by-side with you unblocking all of the usernames that you want to keep. Don't blame the newbies if you don't want but don't blame the experienced people following the set policies either. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think you're missing the point. It's not that the policy needs to be changed. You're right that the user in question needed to change his name. I don't think that anydbody disputes that. What's being questioned is whether or not a block without any discussion is the best way to achieve that. I think the general consesnsus is that it is not, particularly for an editor who has been editing in good faith. -Chunky Rice 17:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Wow. Are you now forbidding only me from blocking people whose names violate WP:U? Laughable. If you want WP:U changed, say that and stop singling me out, please. I'm just doing what has been documented as policy. Personally, very few people's names bother me. If someone wants to call themselves User:JoeSchmo@hotmail.com or User:Super Ultra Mega Bob of Waverly Drive from Mars146366, it wouldn't bother me but WP:U says it's not allowed so I block them. If you get someone to listen and change WP:U, I'll be happy to walk side-by-side with you unblocking all of the usernames that you want to keep. Don't blame the newbies if you don't want but don't blame the experienced people following the set policies either. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Why are you so interested in blocking newbies for having dumb names? How does it help Wikipedia? If you don't like interacting with users with dumb names, you don't have to, so let someone else do it. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 16:06, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- The template does get expanded when they try to edit after being blocked (yes I confirmed it just now). Why don't you come up with a consensus for how much time we need to spend with our shoulder around the 100 or so people that create dumb user names each day - before we block them anyway of course. —Wknight94 (talk) 09:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the username issue was not handled well but I also think the user's first complaint, that his/her article was deleted because the editor hit "save page" after he/she finished 2 sentences, is an even bigger problem. I have seen this happen many times and I am sure it happens much more often, with the potential editor quietly throwing up his hands and walking away. There seems to be an absurd assumption that every brand new editor has already mastered the use of personal sandboxes and wiki markup. I don't know if it is because new page patrollers are afraid they will lose the "kill" to another editor if they delay, vandal-fighters are unable to put themselves in the shoes of someone actually writing an article or being too focused on keeping the dreck out that they can't see a valid stub, or whether the tools that the vandal-fighters and new page patrollers use are handy for nipping articles in the bud but less useful for finding week-old articles that never progressed beyond the one-sentence stage. The lack of explanatory talk page comments also hurts. Maybe we also must make it clearer that the editor should not save the page until he or she is satisfied that it it represents a good first draft. There are already a lot of instructions at the top of a 'new page creation' so it may be instruction overload. Does anyone have any suggestions? -- DS1953 talk 19:39, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- Exactly. The whole idea of deleting a stub within minutes of its creation is totally counterproductive. New users especially need more than this. It feels like adminning is seen as something like World of Warcraft, where you gain experience by deleting articles and banning newbies. It's a shame that the goal of inducting newcomers gently has fallen by the wayside.
- My suggestion is that we stop biting newcomers. I can see why you would ban vandals, but I see no reason AT ALL for banning a new user without discussion, or deleting good content within minutes of its creation without discussion. Trollderella 23:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. I see a lot of evidence to suggest that the existing checklist is rarely paid any heed. "Do not write articles about yourself, your company, or your best friend" for example. I just don't know what can be done (if anything) for people who don't read instructions. A lot of people do that; it's not a phenomenon that is specific to WP. Personally, I like to be well informed, but that's just me I guess. Perhaps a "please read this" screen with useful tips and advice that appears once the user name has been created. We might already have that, of course; a bit hard to know without creating a new account. Adrian M. H. 00:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- I went and looked. The article version that was deleted was "The Discarded Image: An Introduction to Medieval and Renaissance Literature is the last book written by C. S. Lewis." The reason given was "CSD A1: Very short article providing little or no context)". IMO opinion this was a valid stub that had sufficient context. In addition it had had two edits by its original creator within three minutes of its creation. It was deleted four minutes after its initial creation. Dsmdgold 03:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure. I see a lot of evidence to suggest that the existing checklist is rarely paid any heed. "Do not write articles about yourself, your company, or your best friend" for example. I just don't know what can be done (if anything) for people who don't read instructions. A lot of people do that; it's not a phenomenon that is specific to WP. Personally, I like to be well informed, but that's just me I guess. Perhaps a "please read this" screen with useful tips and advice that appears once the user name has been created. We might already have that, of course; a bit hard to know without creating a new account. Adrian M. H. 00:02, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem arises when admins use banning and deletion as the tool of first resort, when it is obvious that the issue is that a new user does not understand the intricacies of every piece of policy. This was not a case of someone not reading the instructions, they were banned for violating a policy that is not in the instructions. A little common sense on the part of admins would go a long way. Trollderella 00:32, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem here wasn't that a newbie didn't read things. Newbies have tons of reading to do when they get to WP, and I'd prefer they start with the core pillars. WP:U is not a core pillar, and unfortunately it's worded vaguely enough that admins with no common sense can use it to justify a newbie-banning power trip. (It's also unfortunate that we have admins with no common sense, but I guess that's what we get for requiring them to edit 40 times per day before promoting them.) rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 06:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is precisely that we have no idea what the newbie had read. His stub, in the four minutes of its existence, was fine as far as it went. Whether he intended to turn out a full article we will now probably never know, since the article was deleted one minute after his second edit. For all we know he might have been halfway through a long edit when it was zapped. Are you defending this deletion? Johnbod 17:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- What makes you think I am? The deletion definitely helped turn this user's WP experience to crap, but I think that's out of the scope of this discussion. I'm saying that it is completely inappropriate to block a newbie on the assumption that they have read an obscure policy like WP:U, when the obvious reality is that they don't know they're breaking a rule. Also, trying to force newbies to read more rules through instruction creep is not the answer. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 23:23, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is precisely that we have no idea what the newbie had read. His stub, in the four minutes of its existence, was fine as far as it went. Whether he intended to turn out a full article we will now probably never know, since the article was deleted one minute after his second edit. For all we know he might have been halfway through a long edit when it was zapped. Are you defending this deletion? Johnbod 17:28, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
With no comment on this particular case, I think the username policy is one of the most stupid and fucked-up things about Wikipedia. It completely sucks. It's worse than useless. I took this vile place and this one off my watchlist months ago, because username blocks serve no purpose other than to fill the logs of the blocking admin and the edit count of the twinkling moron who doubtless reported the supposed "violation". I do not understand why so many admins, when they could be doing far more productive things, waste their precious time blocking accounts that usually have not edited, and most likely never will edit. On the other hand, I understand perfectly why twinkling morons spend many of their useless hours combing through the user creation logs looking for poor, stupid bastards to block. It inflates their edit count and, lo and behold, makes more moronic admins who can do the blocking!
This farcical process serves no productive aim whatsoever. Poor, innocent newbies get blocked - which sucks, because with so many usernames already taken it's getting harder to find acceptable ones. Imagine getting blocked before your first edit - no matter how friendly the template - are you going to contribute again? Hell no! Our massive scale of username blocks, blocking accounts which most likely will never edit, also massively wastes the time of the blocking administrators, who could be doing far more useful things - like closing AfDs - or even writing the encyclopedia! Shock horror - the idea that anyone might write an encyclopedia, instead of doing interesting things like username blocks, positively chills my blood!
Indeed, where does username fascism stop? User:Can't sleep, clown will eat me? Too long! Block him! User:Makemi - that has to be "Make me", yes? Obscene! Block! My own username - obvious reference to castration - to penis! Obscene! Block him too! That's three admins blocked right there! A veritable triumph of the stupid! One admin even runs a username blockbot. Why?? Oh Why? Can't you see that this the biggest violation of BITE ever? Such a waste of time We should talk to people - ask them to change - not block the poor sods! When mostly they haven't even edited! And when they do - the way we troll them, rather than talk, is appalling. Moreschi Talk 17:52, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think it's a bit of a stretch to say there is no reason to block usernames simply on their content alone: is User:Rapeisawesome or User:JesusGayWithMohammed really something you want wandering around an edit history? But I agree that WP:RFCN is a clusterfuck of policy wonks and power tripping. If a username is borderline enough to need a discussion it should just be allowed until the user misbehaves. Natalie 18:11, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- if they've writing featured articles, why not? Who cares? Ok, I'm being silly now, but the point that mostly people don't care about supposedly "offensive" usernames. Certainly those outside our little clique don't - they never check who's writing - and those inside should care more about newbie biting and less about their twinkling edit counts. Moreschi Talk 18:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Definitely, I'm just saying we shouldn't get too reactionary. This seems to be a common Wikipedia trait: one person does something distasteful or what have you so we write an extensive policy forbidding that type of action and three other things that could be mistaken for it (*cough*WP:BADSITES*cough*). Then a small handful of people within Wikipedia make it their personal mission to enforce that policy by its strictest possible interpretation. Blocking all potentially offensive or otherwise problematic usernames is too extreme, as is never forbidding any usernames ever. Natalie 18:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Delete fucking TWINKLE and we would solve a lot of problems on Wikipedia right now. Nick 18:14, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- if they've writing featured articles, why not? Who cares? Ok, I'm being silly now, but the point that mostly people don't care about supposedly "offensive" usernames. Certainly those outside our little clique don't - they never check who's writing - and those inside should care more about newbie biting and less about their twinkling edit counts. Moreschi Talk 18:19, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- There's no questioning the usefulness of TWINKLE in the hands of those who know what they're doing, but at the moment, we're leaving kitchen knives around children when we allow totally new users to add TWINKLE into their monobooks and start making ill judged and ill informed edits. There needs to be some urgent discussion on how we proceed with such tools. Nick 18:56, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
Moreschi said it all for me, basically. I just clicked the link to the Usernames for Admin Attention page. I saw a (bot-reported) user name: "Master Shriner for Humanity of Lady of Humanity". It is probably going to be blocked indefinitely soon. This may be an innocent newbie who thought that it was a nice name. I don't see a huge notice at the account creation page saying "TAKE A SHORT NAME OR WE WILL IMMEDIATELY BLOCK YOU". We should have better things to do with our time than blocking good-faith newbies. Melsaran 18:54, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- (ec) Holy hot damn. Who knew this was such a monstrous issue? I for one will pledge not to do any further username blocks - and even take WP:UAA off my watchlist - and hopefully everyone here can get the WP:U policy corrected. God willing, that will prevent further venomous messages in my inbox. —Wknight94 (talk) 18:58, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
When was the last time any of you actually typed a username into your address bar or the search box (right) rather than clicking on a signature. Longer usernames aren't as much of a problem as some people are making out. Nick 19:04, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Another example: today a user Mrwilsonvaldez made a few edits to Wilson Valdéz between 0:17 and 0:23 with updated contract information on a Major League Baseball player. Then, at 0:24 - BAM - indefinitely blocked with the very helpful template that starts out "Your account with this username has been blocked indefinitely because the username may be rude or inflammatory ..." Welcome to Wikipedia, newbie, we hope you enjoyed your seven minutes here! -- DS1953 talk 19:20, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well yes, that's a silly block on someone with a very common name. The counterexample is the one above, User:Master Shriner for Humanity of Lady of Humanity. It was quickly followed by User:ALPHA DELTA PHI for Humanity of Lady of Humanity, User:ALPHA KAPPA ALPHA for Humanity of Lady of Humanity, User:ZETA PHI BETTA for Humanity of Lady of Humanity, and User:Ancient Pricess for Humanity of Lady of Humanity. Obviously someone up to no good whatsoever. That's not to say I will participate in WP:UAA any longer, don't worry. —Wknight94 (talk) 19:55, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I've now started a section on this at WT:U. That's a more appropriate place to discuss any change to the actual policy, and that seems to be a sensible way to fix the perceived problem. SamBC 22:36, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
- Really, the sensible thing is to apply some common sense before the ban-reflex kicks in. Trollderella 01:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
After a considerable quantity of discussion on WT:U and WT:UAA, I've managed to fix one thing: the section for "bot-reported usernames" now mentions that it's reasonable to warn a user instead of blocking them, if their username is unacceptable but not blatantly so. I'd say this includes cases such as confusing usernames, company names, or mild profanity that is unlikely to upset real people -- but that, like so many things, is ultimately up to the judgement of the admins. But this is better than the previous status quo, which implied that the only choices were letting them keep the name, blocking them, or fretting about it on WP:RFCN.
I'd like to encourage those who are unhappy with UAA to give it another try now. Things are getting seriously discussed there. You may be able to prevent future biting of newbies by setting a good example. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:22, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
Hard blocking for username violations
Tangentially related to the above discussion, I'd like to talk about the practice of hardblocking usernames. WP:U#Reporting_inappropriate_names discusses that account creation may be disabled when blocking 'bad faith' usernames. First problem, 'bad faith' is an inherently subjective determination. Blocks like the above discussed 'badassbassist' show that subjective determinations can and do backfire because we all have different backgrounds. Second, I think it's perfectly reasonable to assume that there are plenty of folks who have no intention to disrupt who put in outrageous usernames, not realizing that it's against policy. Nowhere else on Wikipedia do we essentially BAN someone from the project forever for a single misstep, and as noted in WP:U, we aren't morality police, so passing judgment on the basic character of someone who picks a stupid name to shock and assuming that they have no possibility of being a constructive user goes against the grain of the project. I wish to adjust the text so that the explicit endorsement of hardblocking usernames is removed, and then begin work towards changing our admin culture so that it's phased out as a practice. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 16:46, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- If the username just happens to be one that is against our policy, then of course, softblock the account so that the person can create another username. If the username is deliberate trolling, such as naming an admin and saying that he "has a small penis" or that his "phone number is 1234568", then it is a disruptive sockpuppet, and should be hardblocked, just as we would hardblock a new account with an inoffensive name who began to post such things on Wikipedia pages. ElinorD (talk) 16:53, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Personally, I only block account creation if the username is clearly used to troll, such as User:I hate wikipedia admins or User:Sock of wikipedia admins or User:Real life name takes it up the arse. Even some very innappropriate usernames (e.g. User:I have a slack vagina) are often created in good faith, so I agree we should totally limit when we block account creation. Ryan Postlethwaite 16:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- We block users that demonstrate they are only here to disrupt. We block vandalism only accounts, and if a name is clearly intending to disrupt a hard block is reasonable. There was even a discussion on WT:UAA that there were so many "PooPoo" names they were likely being created just to get on WP:UAA, may have been just a few people acting as many, and that they should have account creation disabled. Prevent account creation, don't feed the trolls. I agree it should be used with caution. Until(1 == 2) 17:03, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
This is also being discussed at Template talk:UsernameHardBlocked#Is this needed?. WjBscribe 17:08, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
I support removing the endorsement of hard blocks. We can't trust admins to use them cautiously and responsibly in the current culture of WP:UAA. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 19:51, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
Eh, of course we can trust admins to use them cautiously - that's what admins are for. If you think an admin is hardblocking when they should not, take it up with them. If they continue, we can have an RfC. But there are clearly circumstances when hardblocks are appropriate. WjBscribe 19:54, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- A lot of Wikipedians don't trust admins to block usernames responsibly. Some quotes from that discussion:
- "I took this vile place and this one off my watchlist months ago, because username blocks serve no purpose other than to fill the logs of the blocking admin and the edit count of the twinkling moron who doubtless reported the supposed 'violation'."
- "This farcical process serves no productive aim whatsoever."
- "They were banned for violating a policy that is not in the instructions."
- "Indeed, where does username fascism stop?"
- "The way we troll them, rather than talk, is appalling."
- "Welcome to Wikipedia, newbie, we hope you enjoyed your seven minutes here!"
- Are you just going to bury your head in the sand and assume that admins are infallible, or are you going to help discuss a way to fix the problem? rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 23:42, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- A lot of Wikipedians don't trust admins to block usernames responsibly. Some quotes from that discussion:
- We're all willing to discuss the matter. You simply suggested that all username hardblocks should be stopped. That's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I am more than willing to discuss alternative approaches or to talk to admins who may be getting over block-happy. But your suggestion was an utter failure to assume good faith on the part of other admins. To copy the list I made elsewhere, I believe the following are cases where username hardblocks are not only appropriate but desirable:
- Usernames involving racism or other hate speech
- Usernames attacking other users/administrators
- Usernames advocating outrageous POV e.g. the support of terrorism
- Usernames involving strong profanity
- Are there any of these names you don't think should be hardblocked? WjBscribe 23:49, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
- Suppose someone posted "Fuck Nigga Pussy Cock Sex Gangbang Anal Terrorism" on an article page, where it would be far more visible than a username. They wouldn't be indefinitely blocked; they'd get a strong vandalism warning, and on the second offense they'd get blocked for 24 hours. The way the username policy is being enforced is way out of proportion to the rest of Wikipedia. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 01:17, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- We're all willing to discuss the matter. You simply suggested that all username hardblocks should be stopped. That's using a sledgehammer to crack a nut. I am more than willing to discuss alternative approaches or to talk to admins who may be getting over block-happy. But your suggestion was an utter failure to assume good faith on the part of other admins. To copy the list I made elsewhere, I believe the following are cases where username hardblocks are not only appropriate but desirable:
- If it was their first edit then hell ya I would block it, as a "vandalism only account". From WP:BLOCK: "accounts used primarily for disruption are blocked indefinitely" Until(1 == 2) 01:31, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- For practicality. If we continually block those accounts with account creation enabled, then ONE person could register an infinite amount of accounts with dumbass names on quicker than admins could block single ones, ending up in four or five admins blocking stupid names non-stop because of person. I don't like this thought. Things are fine just they way they are. "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia where admins don't block you from repetitively creating accounts with stupid names, and instead waste their time letting you carry on doing it"? Not a good message. --Deskana (banana) 01:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- I concede this point; some hard username blocks are justified. It would be reasonable to hardblock most of the names listed above, except I still have reservations about simple profanity such as "Cuntbitchfuck" -- that user may just be uncreative and juvenile, not malicious. Block the name, certainly, but give them the opportunity to change it. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 04:58, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- For practicality. If we continually block those accounts with account creation enabled, then ONE person could register an infinite amount of accounts with dumbass names on quicker than admins could block single ones, ending up in four or five admins blocking stupid names non-stop because of person. I don't like this thought. Things are fine just they way they are. "Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia where admins don't block you from repetitively creating accounts with stupid names, and instead waste their time letting you carry on doing it"? Not a good message. --Deskana (banana) 01:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that they create 18 such names in 2 hours. That is why we can block account creation. In 2 days they can come back and try again. Until(1 == 2) 05:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- Technical question: if you soft-block an account and block account creation, doesn't that just prevent the account from creating more accounts? Can't the person log off and immediately create more accounts as an IP? The underlying IP is not affected unless you hard-block, i.e. turn on the autoblock. Please correct me if I'm wrong... —Wknight94 (talk) 10:40, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- The problem is that they create 18 such names in 2 hours. That is why we can block account creation. In 2 days they can come back and try again. Until(1 == 2) 05:37, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- Can I just ask what the point of blocking usernames before they have edited is? It doesn't make the names cease to exist. I thought Wikipedia wasn't censored? Kamryn · Talk 08:49, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- We can hardly say we're a serious encyclopedia if we have articles that are written by people called User:CuntBitchFuck and User:YoureAllFags. --Deskana (banana) 10:47, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
- In response to Kamryn, blocks are meant to be preventative, not punitive. So if you know that a name is inappropriate to edit with then block before they edit is in line with this philosophy. After all, blocking an account prevents editing, which is what we don't want such names to be doing. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 14:27, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Usernames advocating potentially controversial political views
Are these allowed? I am inclined to believe that this is explicitly forbidden. -- Cat chi? 15:22, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- If we allow userboxes of that kind I don't see any reason why we should ban usernames. Kamryn · Talk 15:25, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- This is about usernames not userboxes. Also "other stuff exists" is a poor way to construct a rationale. -- Cat chi? 15:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- "Usernames that promote a controversial or potentially inflammatory point of view" are not allowed if they are offensive or otherwise inappropriate. So I guess it would depend on the individual case. Until(1 == 2) 15:30, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Would "long live" France/Nazi Germany/Palestine/Israel/United States/etc etc... be appropriate? Some o the terms are controversial to a lesser degree (such as long live "France/United States") but I would see it problematic to see a "User:Long Live United States" edit articles that relates to the United States in a controversial manner -- Cat chi? 15:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- When you are unsure, WP:RFCN is your best friend. Until(1 == 2) 19:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- I did that, it was closed in less than 24 hours with minimal discussion: [4]. I do not believe my argument was given adequate consideration. -- Cat chi? 19:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- So... is this thread to be a 'RFCN Review' thread or something? C'mon, sour grapes and all. RFCN doesn't mean Respect For Cat's Notifications, sometimes the consensus is "No, you're being silly". I have plenty of experience in that department, it's part of working on a collaboration with lots of people. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 22:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- I do not make nominations simply to occupy server hard drive space. I see no consensus on that particular case. No real discussion for that matter. For me Kurdistan is an inflammatory term as is Nazi Germany (not that I am comparing the two). -- Cat chi? 21:57, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- So... is this thread to be a 'RFCN Review' thread or something? C'mon, sour grapes and all. RFCN doesn't mean Respect For Cat's Notifications, sometimes the consensus is "No, you're being silly". I have plenty of experience in that department, it's part of working on a collaboration with lots of people. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 22:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- I did that, it was closed in less than 24 hours with minimal discussion: [4]. I do not believe my argument was given adequate consideration. -- Cat chi? 19:33, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- That is that really. Until(1 == 2) 22:10, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- When you are unsure, WP:RFCN is your best friend. Until(1 == 2) 19:20, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- Would "long live" France/Nazi Germany/Palestine/Israel/United States/etc etc... be appropriate? Some o the terms are controversial to a lesser degree (such as long live "France/United States") but I would see it problematic to see a "User:Long Live United States" edit articles that relates to the United States in a controversial manner -- Cat chi? 15:48, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
- It'd be nice if all RFCNs could be left open for at least 24 hours. Even if they're really obvious. I agree that incivil snippy discussions are not useful and should be closed early. "LongLivePalestine" is not really a problem. A user called "LongLivePalestine" adding justifications for suicide bombing to all sorts of articles would be a problem. But then the problem is the user behaviour, which can be dealt with, and not just a username. This is a really long winded way of saying AGF. Dan Beale-Cocks 11:18, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
- Usernames should be allowed to edit any and every article without any kind of problems. If the user in question agrees to stay away from all articles related to Kurdistan, I'd be fine with it. However he demonstrates an interest on the topic. I would find it disruptive and trollish for a user:LinglivePalestine/user:LongliveIsrael to edit articles related to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. What kind of a message does such usernames send to a random person reviewing the people who wrote the article? -- Cat chi? 21:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- All political views are by definition controversial. This is too wide in scope. >Radiant< 09:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. Thats why we don't allow political views in usernames. If "long live Kurdistan" is fine, so is "death to Kurdistan". Imagine such two users editing Kurdistan. -- Cat chi? 21:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
- So what should happen if you were to edit Kitten? >Radiant< 10:00, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with the person who said on the closed RFCN that there's a significant difference between "LongLive" names, presumably wishing life to (or at least wishing a lasting memory of?) a people or region, and "DeathTo" names, presumably wishing death, genocide, violence to a people or region. A name that tried a wiggle-round around that by saying something like, LongLiveEthnicCleansing or LongLiveRacialPurity would fall into the latter category. Although I am commenting here on the policy talk page about what I think makes sense in terms of "live" v. "death" username policies, I'll add one thing that I would have put in the RFCN if I'd seen it while it was open. A name as innocuous as LiveKurdistan (especially since it wasn't even in English) standing alone just doesn't come across as hostile, whether it refers to the current Iraqi Kurdistan or to a larger cultural concept. -- Lisasmall | Talk 02:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. Thats why we don't allow political views in usernames. If "long live Kurdistan" is fine, so is "death to Kurdistan". Imagine such two users editing Kurdistan. -- Cat chi? 21:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Consensus needed on imposter addition
Right now, the disruptive usernames section contains this line among its defnitions: Usernames that are similar to those previously used by persistent vandals or banned users . It doesn't deal with people using names identical to those of current non-banned, non-vandal editors.
Propose for consensus: adding Usernames that are, or appear to be, identical to those in use by other users.
I've encountered a situation where, by accident or design, someone seems to be impersonating another user by using a tilde sig which produces their IP, and then manually typing in "User:Example" after that -- in which Example is another person entirely and not their own log-in name (so far as I know; checking on that now). I looked hard for a policy on impersonation or imposture, and didn't find one. Finally, I asked over at WP:AN (responses presently located here) and all agreed it fits into the disruptive category, even though the language there is not explicit about it. No one suggested any other policy that would apply to this kind of spoofing / misrepresentation / imposture / impersonation.
...are (or appear to be) is in there to address someone who codes their signature to substitute the numeral 1 for a lower case L, or o's for zeroes, etc., to try to produce a visual result which is hard to distinguish from the legit user's name. "Are" refers to people who simply manually type in "User:Example" when that is not their name. It does not refer to situations without the "User:" prefix -- a guy named "Jim" who just types "Jim" as or near his sig wouldn't fall afoul of this proposal. If someone has better phrasing, please suggest it.
As you comment here to consent or critique, could you also suggest what the shortcuts should be? WP:IMP and WP:Imp are presently occupied. Over at the AN, someone called it "imping" but WP:IMPING seems too arcane to be a good WP shortcut, at least for non-admins to think of offhand. So does WP:POSEUR. Dictionaries spell imposter/impostor both ways. I was thinking WP:IMPOST, WP:Imposter, WP:Impostor, WP:Impersonation, WP:Impersonate as redirects to a single shortcut; but which one? What word would someone inexperienced think of first, when they're looking for help or policy on this topic? Other possibilities are WP:Identity or WP:Spoof or WP:Falsify, but those may be better saved for some other nefarious activity. I am into the shortcuts because I had such a hard time locating info about this.
I've never wanted to change a policy before, so I don't know how many responses constitute consensus. Five? Fifty? Do I make the change if there's consensus, or does some kind of policy czar do it? I aspire to be BOLD, but I'm in unfamiliar territory. -- Lisasmall | Talk 03:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree these things shouldn't be allowed. But I'm pretty sure that they are already covered by WP:U#Confusing coupled with WP:U#Leet. As for spoofing a signature, I believe that is treated as pure disruption and is blockable. Perhaps an admin may have further insight here. Flyguy649 talk contribs 03:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yep, "usernames that closely resemble the name of another Wikipedia user and may cause confusion" already covers that. >Radiant< 08:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- Looks covered already, per Radiant. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 13:43, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Naming after Adolf Hitler
It seems that we are not allowed to name after him. Why? Such as User:Hitlersson666, User:Adolphus Hitlerius, they were blocked. Why? --Edmund the King of the Woods! 02:31, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe they should let Wikimedia attorney Mike Godwin answer that. *Dan T.* 02:41, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I've just removed the section that said "School administrators for the purposes of cleaning up vandalism to articles about their schools and as a liaison with Wikipedia:Administrators for tracking down abusive students from within their networks" are allowed to share accounts. This was added without discussion and I don't see why we should make this exception. School admins can email admins if there is a problem with there IP's, and editing of their school page has a clear conflict of interest. I always thought it was a meta rule that shared accounts weren't allowed anyway. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:15, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, please read m:Role account for the use of role accounts project wide. Ryan Postlethwaite 14:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't have any objections to corporate and school IT administrators being allowed shared role accounts as long as they aren't editing articles directly. Having a visible presence is always a good deterrent to "anonymous" vandals if they know they can be held accountable. -- Netsnipe ► 16:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Agree, a role account of a proxy/AN administrator is not a bad idea, so long as it is NOT editing articles. It may be helpful if it were to also require some sort of confirmation with a wiki admin that they are who they say they are. — xaosflux Talk 03:34, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been thinking about this and I've sort of changed my mind. I thought at first that it would probably be okay, but the more I think about it the more I think it would be better if they just had their own accounts. What's the hassle in them having different accounts? The thing is they are going to edit articles. At the very least, they will edit the school's article(s). I also don't think it's compliant with the GFDL. Sarah 07:59, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Handling bad names
I've seen so many usernames being blocked. Why most of them were left alone without putting anything inside as creating userpage, while a few of them placed Template:Usernameblocked, a few Template:UsernameHardBlocked, and a few even Template:Indefblock!!?? --Edmund the King of the Woods! 10:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
- Well, if I see a name that was created simply to get a reaction, I often deny that reaction. Most names should get a message though. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 13:41, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Do you mean that some people created an account with bad names just to be simply blocked? If an admin block it with its IP blocked and/or account creation blocked, then UsernameHardBlocked should be used right? But why some were applied Indefblock instead? I thought that should be used for people with disciplinary problem such as continuous vandalism, edit war, continuous violation of WP:3RR... --Edmund the King of the Woods! 09:12, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
- The reason is that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy. >Radiant< 13:16, 4 September 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry, I don't get what you mean. What does "bureaucracy" has to do with bad names? --Edmund the King of the Woods! 02:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- I mainly cannot understand why IndefBlocked is used sometimes. --Edmund the King of the Woods! 02:28, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- What I meant is that people sometimes use different templates than you expect them to, and we have no effective way of making everybody use the same system. It does not appear to be problematic if indefinitely-blocked accounts are flagged as "indefblock". >Radiant< 08:53, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that when we block for a username violation, we usually use {{Username blocked}} as the block reason, which makes the template appears as the block message. Therefore duplicating it on the talk page is overdoing it -- lucasbfr talk 15:04, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
But what I think is, if there is such a template for blocked bad names, just use it! As IndefBlocked is so general. Furthermore, once I went for RfA, one who opposed pointed out an acceptable MISTAKE, which was I replaced an IndefBlocked with a Usernameblocked in a bad name's userpage. That's why I think there's a special case for IndefBlocked. --Edmund the King of the Woods! 23:44, 5 September 2007 (UTC)
- Something merely existing is a poor reason for using it. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 00:41, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
What's the existing and using which one? --Edmund the King of the Woods! 08:39, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
"Vulgar" usernames
Following discussion at WT:UFAA, it seems that general practice is to disallow names for being "vulgar". This doesn't seem to match any of the five reasons to disallow names, noting that vulgar does not necessarily imply offensive. Is the wider community in accord with this? If so, I would suggest amending the policy to specifically disallow vulgarity. My opinion, however, is that this swings too far towards censorship and is far too general. SamBC(talk) 14:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- While one definition of vulgar is "offensive in language", it also means common[5]. The names being discussed are better described as crass, gross, or offensive. I am assuming you are talking about the whole "pee" "poo" debate. This seems covered by the existing policy. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 14:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- At least two editors, myself and User:rspeer, disagree on that interpretation of policy, hence the desire for further consultation. If policy can be read either way, it should be clarified. Which way to clarify needs further community participation. "Pee" is hardly universally (or even widely) offensive, in my opinion; it's more juvenile than anything else. Or do you feel it meets another of the 5 principle reasons? SamBC(talk) 15:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- They policy says "Offensive usernames that may make harmonious editing difficult or impossible". I would say that pee is generally offensive. I will continue to treat it that way. The fact is people don't like bodily fluids in polite conversation, that is why excretory references are specifically listed as something likely to be offensive. I just don't see what the proposed policy change is as the meaning of "Vulgar" is either "common" or "offensive". Offensive is covered, common is not an issue. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 15:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, dictionary.com feels that there's more meanings than that, as do I, which explains my point. Vulgar can mean pertaining to the masses (ie, common), it can mean "indecent; obscene; lewd", which is what you're saying now, but it can also simply mean "crude; coarse; unrefined" or even "characterized by ignorance of or lack of good breeding or taste". The last of these is perhaps a bit ostentatious, but the second-to-last is how I would understand "vulgar" in the sense of the milder words for bodily functions, such as pee, or fart. I wanted to see what other people think, not just move the existing discussion. How about we both quieten down and let other people offer an opinion, hmm? SamBC(talk) 19:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Despite having been a part of the discussion at UAA, I'm a little confused by the conversation thus far. Sam, would you mind cut n pasting here the relevant wording of the policy you're referring to, and then indicate what exactly you're advocating: a change in the wording, change in the interpretation of the wording, or something else? Just for clarity, so we know *exactly* what we're discussing and the exact proposals at hand. ~Eliz81(C) 21:02, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, dictionary.com feels that there's more meanings than that, as do I, which explains my point. Vulgar can mean pertaining to the masses (ie, common), it can mean "indecent; obscene; lewd", which is what you're saying now, but it can also simply mean "crude; coarse; unrefined" or even "characterized by ignorance of or lack of good breeding or taste". The last of these is perhaps a bit ostentatious, but the second-to-last is how I would understand "vulgar" in the sense of the milder words for bodily functions, such as pee, or fart. I wanted to see what other people think, not just move the existing discussion. How about we both quieten down and let other people offer an opinion, hmm? SamBC(talk) 19:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, below is the relevant "general reason" and the text that appears after the general reasons. Apologies if more copied than really needed, but better to have too much than too little in this case, I think. SamBC(talk) 21:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Extract from WP:U
- Offensive usernames that may make harmonious editing difficult or impossible; potential examples include but are not limited to:
- Usernames that promote a controversial or potentially inflammatory point of view.
- Usernames that are defamatory or insulting to other people or groups.
- Usernames that invoke the name of a religious figure or religion in a distasteful, disrespectful, or provocative way, or promote one religion over another. (Note that simple expressions of faith are allowed unless they are disruptive, but are discouraged.)
- Usernames that refer to real-world violent actions.
- Usernames that refer or include allusions to racism, sexism, hate speech, et cetera.
- Usernames that refer to a medical condition or disability, especially in a belittling way.
- Usernames that include slurs, or references to reproductive or excretory bodily functions.
A username that is inappropriate in another language or one that includes misspellings and substitutions such as through Leetspeak may still be considered inappropriate in general.
Usernames should not be considered inappropriate unless one of the 5 general reasons applies: use common sense. In borderline cases, ask for other opinions before blocking the username. For instance, not every name that includes "Jimbo" is a misleading reference to Jimmy Wales or impersonating him; there are many people named Jimbo, and new users may not even know who Jimbo Wales is.
The above policies also should not be taken as a moralistic restrictions - Wikipedia is not censored. Using potentially offensive or ambigious terms in your username should instead be avoided for the sake of community cooperation and etiquette.
Further discussion
So, what I'm saying is, is there consensus that all "vulgar" usernames (such as "pee" or "fart" or suchlike) are to be considered offensive, or perhaps "disruptive" to match point 3 from the original (point 1 above is actually point 5). They seem to be being picked up as references to excretory functions, which are a specific example and policy currently says that matching one of the examples does not, in itself, mean a name should be blocked. If the community, wider than UAA/RFCN, feels that this is what they want, then some edit (I don't know exactly what) should clarify this. If not, then similarly, an edit should clarify even more strongly that specific examples are just categories that may meet the terms of the general reason, but should be considered individually. At the moment, common behaviour doesn't fit with what at least some editors believe the policy says. SamBC(talk) 21:21, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Sam, thank you very much for clearing this up. The debate about the use of the word 'vulgar' didn't seem an immediately obvious policy recommendation. As I suspected, there are several issues at hand. Allow me to make a first attempt at bullet-pointing them, and please feel free to edit. Once we get these sorted out, then we can weigh the pros and cons of concrete options.
- Reword the policy to make clear the relationship of the subheadings of the 5 principal guidelines to the guidelines themselves. Are they mere examples, or concrete categories?
- Reword the excretory functions example to include the word 'vulgar' instead of 'offensive.'
- Move the excretory functions example from point 5 to point 3, where there is already a similar example, since we're appealing to its disruptiveness more than offensiveness.
- Appropriate use of the UW:UAA template should be clarified, and how to handle borderline or incorrect reports to UAA.
- I think it is fine the way it is. Excretory functions are generally offensive, not just disruptive so I don't see the reason behind moving it. It seems clear already from the wording "Usernames should not be considered inappropriate unless one of the 5 general reasons applies" that those are examples and that they should meet the larger criteria before being in violation. As for allowing vulgarity, I suppose it depends on if it violated one of the existing policy points, I don't think we need to specifically mention this rather ambiguous word. As for the UAA template, you never should have been given it, that name was a perfect candidate for UAA. ((1 == 2) ? (('Stop') : ('Go')) 21:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just of curiosity, what would be some examples of non-offensive vulgarity? referring to phlegm or something like that? I think point 3 is an okay option since excretory words are disruptive, and actually I'd support rewording the template for incorrect UAA reports, given the amount of discretion that goes into all decisions there. Specifically, I'd reword "Please remember you should only post blatant infringements on this page." to "An administrator feels that the name was not blatant enough for immediate blocking, especially if the user has not yet made an edit." or something along those lines. ~Eliz81(C) 21:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- The line that jumps right out at me, and pertains to these "pee" and "poo/poop" names is: Using potentially offensive or ambigious terms in your username should instead be avoided for the sake of community cooperation and etiquette. While some people may not find these offensive, and may simply chalk them up to immaturity, the majority of mature editors do not use these terms in conversation, as mentioned previously, and the names could be potentially offensive to others, thus also making harmonious cooperative editing difficult. I personally would not like to have to refer to another editor by name if it were "pee pee pants". No, it is not blatantly offensive, but I find it vulgar, crude, and inappropriate for an encyclopedia such as this. Ariel♥Gold 22:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- It doesn't help the clarity of the policy that that isn't in the list of actual reasons for finding a name offensive. It should perhaps be a note in reason 5, with more emphasis given to why it's bad to be offensive there, rather than a bit of the way down. This would lead to assessment of potential problems rather than discussing offensiveness qua offensiveness.
- "Pee" is a terrible example for us to have been using, on reflection, because it is part of non-offensive terms sometimes. Even without that, with things like "poop", "fart", "pee", etc, there is an argument that people who object are frankly being "precious". I'm frankly not sure, although there is a general picture across wikipedia that avoiding offence to readers doesn't matter, but this implies that a little offence to editors is a big problem. I don't know where I come down. It all seems rather confusing and inconsistent. Sure, Until, you would say it's consistent, but that's just that you have a consistent view yourself; it doesn't mean it's consistent across wikipedia and across admins, let alone all editors. SamBC(talk) 22:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- The line that jumps right out at me, and pertains to these "pee" and "poo/poop" names is: Using potentially offensive or ambigious terms in your username should instead be avoided for the sake of community cooperation and etiquette. While some people may not find these offensive, and may simply chalk them up to immaturity, the majority of mature editors do not use these terms in conversation, as mentioned previously, and the names could be potentially offensive to others, thus also making harmonious cooperative editing difficult. I personally would not like to have to refer to another editor by name if it were "pee pee pants". No, it is not blatantly offensive, but I find it vulgar, crude, and inappropriate for an encyclopedia such as this. Ariel♥Gold 22:05, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just of curiosity, what would be some examples of non-offensive vulgarity? referring to phlegm or something like that? I think point 3 is an okay option since excretory words are disruptive, and actually I'd support rewording the template for incorrect UAA reports, given the amount of discretion that goes into all decisions there. Specifically, I'd reword "Please remember you should only post blatant infringements on this page." to "An administrator feels that the name was not blatant enough for immediate blocking, especially if the user has not yet made an edit." or something along those lines. ~Eliz81(C) 21:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Ariel that pee/poop and so on are flagged up by Using potentially offensive or ambigious terms in your username should instead be avoided for the sake of community cooperation and etiquette and so they are terms that should warrant action by UAA. SGGH speak! 10:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I second that SGGH speak! 16:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I agree too: I for one would like to see all those micro-specific reasons removed completely. They encourage legalistic thinking, which is a big waste of time with username blocks. That phrase is only below the "rules" because that's what I had to compromise on. Mangojuicetalk 17:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well said, Mangojuice. In an ideal world where common sense was always applied, WP:U would be simple: if the username is likely to be contentious, it isn't allowed. I think everyone can agree on whether a username is problematic in most cases. Unfortunately, people try to "test the line" of acceptability, so we try to be more specific and give examples. Then, as Mangojuice said, people try to wikilawyer, leading to attempts at more clarity in the policy and eventually a series of sections on acceptability with subsections and whatnot </minirant>. Flyguy649 talk contribs 17:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with this too. I don't like the fact that each type of violation has several example sub-types under it, because it makes those sub-types treated as reasons in themselves; then we end up arguing pointlessly about examples of those, like whether six Z's in a row is okay but not seven, and they get used as a crutch by admins who don't want to apply common sense. The top level reasons plus common sense are all that is necessary. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 20:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- The trouble with appealing to common sense is that it's not particularly common, and not necessarily always sensible either. One person's common sense may be another's nonsense. *Dan T.* 21:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I support Sam's suggestion for moving the general list of reasons (as the one in bold cited by ArielGold) ahead of the examples. I think the examples of each policy are necessary now, to avoid being completely vague. And as I've mentioned before, offensiveness is by far the most subjective one and we need to elucidate what can reasonably be constituted as offensive. That being said, I fully agree we should prioritize how we present the information, and the general guidelines and principles come way before nitpicking. ~Eliz81(C) 22:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- The bit ArielGold bolded isn't even in the general reasons - it's part of an explanation after the general reasons. I feel that we should have the general reasons, each with a fuller bit of explanation as to why it's a problem, and then examples in a seperate section. The bit of text ArielGold bolded should be in the explanation for point 5, although that then implies that 5 is a subset of 3. SamBC(talk) 23:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Just to clarify, I didn't bold that section to say that it was a policy/reason in itself, but to emphasize it was the rationale behind the policy. I agree with Sam that the reasons should have a bit more explanation, while still leaving them open for interpretation in the case of these "skating the thin line" issues. In those cases, the line I bolded should be considered, with regards to possible interpretations of those thin line names. Ariel♥Gold 06:41, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- The bit ArielGold bolded isn't even in the general reasons - it's part of an explanation after the general reasons. I feel that we should have the general reasons, each with a fuller bit of explanation as to why it's a problem, and then examples in a seperate section. The bit of text ArielGold bolded should be in the explanation for point 5, although that then implies that 5 is a subset of 3. SamBC(talk) 23:09, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I support Sam's suggestion for moving the general list of reasons (as the one in bold cited by ArielGold) ahead of the examples. I think the examples of each policy are necessary now, to avoid being completely vague. And as I've mentioned before, offensiveness is by far the most subjective one and we need to elucidate what can reasonably be constituted as offensive. That being said, I fully agree we should prioritize how we present the information, and the general guidelines and principles come way before nitpicking. ~Eliz81(C) 22:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- The trouble with appealing to common sense is that it's not particularly common, and not necessarily always sensible either. One person's common sense may be another's nonsense. *Dan T.* 21:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with this too. I don't like the fact that each type of violation has several example sub-types under it, because it makes those sub-types treated as reasons in themselves; then we end up arguing pointlessly about examples of those, like whether six Z's in a row is okay but not seven, and they get used as a crutch by admins who don't want to apply common sense. The top level reasons plus common sense are all that is necessary. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 20:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Non-language character usernames
Per discussion of User:҈ at WT:RFCN and WP:RFCN, it seems that the user policy should explicitly forbid non-alphabet/language character usernames (non-Latin characters which are used in languages other than English are explicitly allowed by WP:U). This would include names consisting of pure or mostly punctuation and special characters such as above. Thoughts? Flyguy649 talk contribs 05:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- As Ryan mentioned earlier, at some point in the future, all languages will log in from the same place, so any policy change to WP:U should be clarified to note it is specific to non-language symbols, such as the above, and [6] User:↻, as neither of those are symbols used in any language, and are what some administrators term "vanity" symbols. Ariel♥Gold 05:08, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I would say that my previous name as no more influenced by "vanity" than any of the names you chose. I frankly don't see where vanity enters into it. Wordless symbol 15:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- There is an obvious comparison to be made with regard to vanity.... But anyway, that alone should not be a major concern. The only issue that I can think of, from my perspective, is that usernames such as these are hard to remember in comparison to a name or word of some kind and they lack an identity (what do you call someone who has a little circle of dots for a username? User:Littlecirclreofdots?). Thus, they can make user interaction a little bit harder at times. I will leave it to others to assert whether that is enough to instigate a ban – I am not sure that it is. Adrian M. H. 15:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- It was not harder to remember than any strange foreign character. And I supplied the word "Sunshine" as a meme for my symbol. I changed my name because it was easier, not because you folks were right. I read the policy first. Perhaps you can re-word it to show what you really expect. Wordless symbol 15:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- User:҈ already changed his/her name to User:Wordless symbol. The question is, should we change the policy to specifically prevent the use of such symbols? User:Wordless symbol chose their original username in good faith after having read the policy.-- Flyguy649 talk contribs 15:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I would say that my previous name as no more influenced by "vanity" than any of the names you chose. I frankly don't see where vanity enters into it. Wordless symbol 15:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The real issue is that many users cannot actually display the username - it displays as a ?. People cannot type in a person's username, they need to copy and paste it in from somewhere. These are all barriers to creating an encyclopedia - the only benefit is to the individual user who gets a vanity username. Secretlondon 16:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Isn't the aim of user names (like all user personalizations) to be used within the limits of "does it cause a problem in making a better encyclopedia"? We set restrictions on user space, for example, and what may be put in it, on grounds mostly that some activity there can cause trouble at a project level.
- User names are an identifier the community allows users to choose, and they have two main functions (other than IP masking which does not demand any given charset):- personalization of the user's own activity ("a pseudonym of my own choosing") and reference by other users (in debates or other matters, etc). The latter is a project necessity, the former is personal enjoyment. Names should have a modicum of ease of representation, and ease of reading and referencing, otherwise that latter goal is not met - and that's an important functional aspect of a username. FT2 (Talk | email) 16:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am one of those that doesn't see the circle of halfmoons, which meant that a) the "sunshine" meme meant nothing to me, b) other people with names that aren't normally renderable will also render as a ?, thus meaning it would be hard to tell who was who, and c) it renders differently on the 3 different browsers (Camino, Safari, Firefox) I have on my Mac OS X system. Given User:I's reported problems, that means there are at least 5 different ways that this username can be seen, rendering the ability to reference that user in discussions practically impossible (please note, this is not an attack on Wordless symbol, I truly believe the name was chosen in good faith, but it has identified a serious problem). — Timotab Timothy (not Tim dagnabbit!) 16:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I used a friends Mac OS X to view the name and I didn't see a circle of half moons. On my Windows with Firefox I saw the circle but it over rides "User" which obfuscates part of the word. I have no doubt it was chosen in good faith but it would be problematic to many users to try to include the name in any context. I don't see any reference to it here in section 1. Confusing usernames, but it seems there could be, because it is confusing.--Sandahl 18:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree. I sometimes use different computers to browse wikipedia, and have noticed that some will display a symbol username properly whereas others show something like this ៛៛៛, when the actual username is this ʑ for instance. --Thε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 20:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- However, I think it should be more clear that those kind of usernames should not be allowed, so I suggest ammending WP:U, to include something of the nature. --Thε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 20:44, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree. I sometimes use different computers to browse wikipedia, and have noticed that some will display a symbol username properly whereas others show something like this ៛៛៛, when the actual username is this ʑ for instance. --Thε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 20:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I used a friends Mac OS X to view the name and I didn't see a circle of half moons. On my Windows with Firefox I saw the circle but it over rides "User" which obfuscates part of the word. I have no doubt it was chosen in good faith but it would be problematic to many users to try to include the name in any context. I don't see any reference to it here in section 1. Confusing usernames, but it seems there could be, because it is confusing.--Sandahl 18:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am one of those that doesn't see the circle of halfmoons, which meant that a) the "sunshine" meme meant nothing to me, b) other people with names that aren't normally renderable will also render as a ?, thus meaning it would be hard to tell who was who, and c) it renders differently on the 3 different browsers (Camino, Safari, Firefox) I have on my Mac OS X system. Given User:I's reported problems, that means there are at least 5 different ways that this username can be seen, rendering the ability to reference that user in discussions practically impossible (please note, this is not an attack on Wordless symbol, I truly believe the name was chosen in good faith, but it has identified a serious problem). — Timotab Timothy (not Tim dagnabbit!) 16:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I don't agree with this one bit. It's just lazy if you don't want to copy and paste someones username - the fact is, that templates still work the same such as the ones in the mediawiki software so there is little problem with it. Also, this is no different to just about any other non-latin character, so the fact that it is not an actual letter is a little moot really. The policy works fine as it currently is, if we just forget about these usernames, and get on with something constructive, we would all be better off. Ryan Postlethwaite 08:51, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Usernames that match personal websites
I've just seen the username policy taken to what seems like a ridiculous extreme, at Wikipedia:Request an account#z0rz. User:FastLizard4 denied the username "z0rz" to a user because he wanted to use the same name he uses elsewhere on the Internet, including his website, http://z0rz.com.
The requested username is clearly not promoting the website. It's referring to the person behind it, with an identity they use elsewhere on the Internet, and that can hardly be a bad thing. If xkcd decided to start editing Wikipedia under his online name, (not that he'd likely want to draw so much attention to his Wikipedia account) would he be blocked for promoting his comic of the same name hosted at xkcd.com? Am I promoting myself with my username, because I am in fact R. Speer? By the twisted logic of username blocks, perhaps I should be blocked, because my name matches a few web pages I control of the form http://something/~rspeer .
This has come up in other cases, such as a user who called himself something.de, which matched a server that was probably his personal server. It was serving a very minimal page over the Web, but an admin blocked him because the page linked to forums and things that were presumably run by the same person. And that made it promotional.
Elsewhere on the Web, there is a trend toward people identifying themselves with domain names -- look at the OpenID system, which requires it -- but when people try to use their established Internet identity on Wikipedia, we block them without a warning, for a crime of "promotion" that they're presumably not even intending to commit. This is just another case of one minor point of WP:U being enforced to the letter and then extended to any cases that are remotely similar, with no regard to common sense. rspeer / ɹəədsɹ 05:31, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- I would tend to agree that promotional usernames need to be considered carefully, both in context, and in the contribution history. As I've mentioned a few times at RFCN, some names may be simply coincidence, and with no proof of promotional intent, should be allowed until proved otherwise. Now, if this user had wished to have the name zOrz.com, then obviously, that name in itself is promotional, but as he's only requested zOrz, I see no problem (given that he understands he may not promote his website in any way, of course). I would think that it would be fairly easy to simply add a caveat to the existing policy that common sense should be used: If no promotional intent has been exhibited, and the name is not immediately obvious to the majority of editors as being linked to another site, the name should be allowed (until proven otherwise). However, I would not think that allowing usernames that have .com, .net, .org, or even .de in the name acceptable, especially when those names match an existing website (whether the user is associated with it or not), as those are inherently promotional; someone would see that name, and automatically realize it is a website. Without explaining some of the issues about this, (WP:BEANS), I'll just say that even if the site is innocuous and not a business or company, I still don't believe they should be allowed, but that's just my personal opinion. I do think the current policy could be re-worded a bit to allow innocent coincidences not be punished by current policy. Ariel♥Gold 05:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
- Agree 100% with Rspeer, but this is a clear case of someone not reading the policy carefully. Right now the wording refers to usernames that match "a company or group." z0rz doesn't seem to be a company or group, just because there is a domain. I would be concerned that User:z0rz is actually the same z0rz (is that a famous person?) But otherwise, yeah, that's wrong. Mangojuicetalk 14:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Real name warning
I would like to make it clear here that attacks and harassment occur not just offsite or off-wiki, but on and from Wikipedia itself, and might be allowed to stay at the discretion of administrators and arbitrators. Because NPA is a policy, new users might falsely believe that personal attacks won't be allowed to happen here, when in reality, Wikipedia might allow them or even actively solicit them (e.g. RfC/U and especially RfArb, arguably also RfA) where they will be published forever. New users should be made to understand that any real name or longstanding pen name might be dragged through the mud here, likely damaging their reputations, and by participating here, they agree that this will happen. Also, many people might naively assume that Wikipedia is a responsible publisher which would not allow libelous attacks. New users need to understand that such attacks are a known feature of this site, and that the Foundation won't take any responsibility for what appears here. We need something here to point to later when they inevitably complain.Proabivouac 08:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Proabivouac is absolutely right. I have watched this situation with alarm - I assumed there were protections for RWI which are not, in fact, in existence. John1951 10:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
- For anyone wondering what Proabivouac is talking about, it might be instructive to note that the 'harassment' seems to consist of Wikipedia administrators and arbitrators posting formal administrative notices that contained Proabivouac's former username (which is also his real name), in order to inform him and others that Proabivouac was violating arbitration sanctions imposed on that previous username. What these 'libelous attacks' consist of hasn't, to my knowledge, been made explicit. The ongoing discussion is, for the moment, here. --Aim Here 10:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)