Serialjoepsycho (talk | contribs) |
→Rephrase suggestion to WP:UP#POLEMIC: clarify @Hut 8.5 |
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***Yes, that's the single example I mentioned in that comment. Stories about real-world violence against Israelis don't support a change to Wikipedia policy on user pages. If there are lots of examples of people inciting violence against Israelis on user pages and being deemed to pass POLEMIC, let's see them. (I'm not going to deem mere advocacy of the Palestinian position as an incitement to violence against Israelis. There's a difference.) '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 07:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC) |
***Yes, that's the single example I mentioned in that comment. Stories about real-world violence against Israelis don't support a change to Wikipedia policy on user pages. If there are lots of examples of people inciting violence against Israelis on user pages and being deemed to pass POLEMIC, let's see them. (I'm not going to deem mere advocacy of the Palestinian position as an incitement to violence against Israelis. There's a difference.) '''''[[User:Hut 8.5|<span style="color:#FF0000;">Hut 8.5</span>]]''''' 07:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC) |
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****POLEMIC is |
****POLEMIC is clear enough to me but some participants exhibit misunderstanding of the policy and purpose of Wikipedia. The arguments raised in topical discussions suggest the clarity of the policy should be improved to reduce interpretation battles. This {{ping|Nableezy}} [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Nableezy&oldid=555113401 userbox], for example, is the result of [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Hezbollah_userbox quite a long discussion]. Other examples exist, off course, but sampling for them distracts from clarifying what POLEMIC is and isn't. If a user names or clearly illustrates an adversary of a living breathing dispute with casualties, it should be made clear to all that this is a violation. <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">[[User:Jaakobou|Jaakobou]]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>''[[User talk:Jaakobou|Chalk Talk]]''</sup></font></b> 10:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC) clarify <b><font face="Arial" color="teal">[[User:Jaakobou|Jaakobou]]</font><font color="1F860E"><sup>''[[User talk:Jaakobou|Chalk Talk]]''</sup></font></b> 11:31, 13 November 2015 (UTC) |
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*'''Oppose''' - I dont understand what "poetic militancy" is supposed to mean. This strikes me as an attempt to say that users may only show support on ones user page for only one of two sides in an ongoing conflict, the examples cited make that fairly clear. And, if Im not mistaken, this suggestion is a fairly clear violation of an AE imposed topic ban. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 22:46, 12 November 2015 (UTC)</small> |
*'''Oppose''' - I dont understand what "poetic militancy" is supposed to mean. This strikes me as an attempt to say that users may only show support on ones user page for only one of two sides in an ongoing conflict, the examples cited make that fairly clear. And, if Im not mistaken, this suggestion is a fairly clear violation of an AE imposed topic ban. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap">'''[[User talk:Nableezy|<font color="#C11B17">nableezy</font>]]''' - 22:46, 12 November 2015 (UTC)</small> |
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how to find a contributor?
Am attempting to find a contributor and the guidelines for doing so are not quite clear to an older newbie brain. Help? Loonietoonie2 (talk) 00:38, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Loonietoonie2: As it says in the box that was shown to you when you posted here, this talk page is for discussion about improving the English Wikipedia guideline, Wikipedia:User pages ... For general help, please ask at the New contributors' help page. --Redrose64 (talk) 16:18, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Notice: This project page mentioned on Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion
See Wikipedia talk:Criteria for speedy deletion#Guidance added to U5. Blatant misuse of Wikipedia as a web host for the discussion. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 16:35, 12 September 2015 (UTC)
This doesn't mention global user pages!?
Hi. I was trying to find out about global profiles on meta-wiki, Google pointed me to User profile which has a hatnote. "For Wikipedia's guideline on its own user pages, see WP:USERPAGE." Yet this page makes no mention of global user profiles. It should prominently say:
- You should create a Global user page on meta-wiki that will appear on all wikis including English Wikipedia, and then if you want you can create a local replacement on English Wikipedia with enwiki-specific stuff.
(I'm writing from my staff account, hence I won't make this change.)
The same comment also applies to Wikipedia:User page design center/Introduction, which also makes no mention of global user pages. -- SPage (WMF) (talk) 20:29, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
Rephrase suggestion to WP:UP#POLEMIC
I've been witness to several instances where editors managed to circumvent WP:UP#POLEMIC. It is my suggestion to further clarify on the policy that poetic militancy (similar to "#JeSuisCouteau", "will of the people", and "my land will not be humiliated") is not permissible. Promotion of militancy (a.k.a. "Mukawama", "Jihad") is illegal in several countries, e.g., the UK,[1][2] France,[3] Australia.[4] My understanding is that "Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or statements attacking or vilifying" does not require content to be illegal. However, if paraphrases about the righteousness of militancy are sometimes passable law-wise, it does not make them right for the Wiki-project. JaakobouChalk Talk 12:13, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
Rephrase Suggestions - Jaakobou
- Original:
- Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities (these are generally considered divisive and removed, and reintroducing them is often considered disruptive).
- Suggested replacement:
- Polemical statements unrelated to Wikipedia, or statements attacking or vilifying groups of editors, persons, or other entities (these are generally considered divisive and removed, and reintroducing them is often considered disruptive). Poetic militancy in support of or promoting violent acts, quotes and paraphrases to raise the spirit of fight and other forms of political militant activism are not permitted.
My thoughts: A simple footnote that "poetic militancy is prohibited" was considered but whether it would be sufficient, that remains to be seen. Thus, a more expanded version came about. JaakobouChalk Talk 12:13, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Support the suggested replacement, my initial thinking was that this was covered already but after discussion about it I'm not so sure. (Just noting that I also added the RFC tag). Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 21:47, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- I don't think this is necessary. Text arguing for violence against Israelis is polemical and does vilify persons, so the guideline already advises against it. The linked discussion contains a large number of links to news stories about violence against Israelis, but only one example on Wikipedia that I can see. That example is several years old and in my opinion is polemical, although as it doesn't actually advocate any sort of violence this change wouldn't make much difference to it. If we're going to go to the point of adding several sentences to stop this sort of content then we need more evidence that it is actually a problem here. Hut 8.5 22:13, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Paraphrasing about humiliation, weapons and victory. There are several on-wiki examples but pointing them out detracts from the principle. 65 stabbings, 7 shootings, 8 car rammings.[5] In real world conflicts, encouragement of violent acts is tantamount to advocating violence. "Raise the spirit of fight" is a quote from a Taliban songwriter. @Hut 8.5: I hope you will reconsider. Adding one line to the text will not be harmful to the project. To the contrary, it would dispel any confusion.[6][7] JaakobouChalk Talk 01:04, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the single example I mentioned in that comment. Stories about real-world violence against Israelis don't support a change to Wikipedia policy on user pages. If there are lots of examples of people inciting violence against Israelis on user pages and being deemed to pass POLEMIC, let's see them. (I'm not going to deem mere advocacy of the Palestinian position as an incitement to violence against Israelis. There's a difference.) Hut 8.5 07:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Hut 8.5:
- POLEMIC is clear enough to me but some participants exhibit misunderstanding of the policy and purpose of Wikipedia. The arguments raised in topical discussions suggest the clarity of the policy should be improved to reduce interpretation battles. This @Nableezy: userbox, for example, is the result of quite a long discussion. Other examples exist, off course, but sampling for them distracts from clarifying what POLEMIC is and isn't. If a user names or clearly illustrates an adversary of a living breathing dispute with casualties, it should be made clear to all that this is a violation. JaakobouChalk Talk 10:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC) clarify JaakobouChalk Talk 11:31, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Yes, that's the single example I mentioned in that comment. Stories about real-world violence against Israelis don't support a change to Wikipedia policy on user pages. If there are lots of examples of people inciting violence against Israelis on user pages and being deemed to pass POLEMIC, let's see them. (I'm not going to deem mere advocacy of the Palestinian position as an incitement to violence against Israelis. There's a difference.) Hut 8.5 07:10, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Paraphrasing about humiliation, weapons and victory. There are several on-wiki examples but pointing them out detracts from the principle. 65 stabbings, 7 shootings, 8 car rammings.[5] In real world conflicts, encouragement of violent acts is tantamount to advocating violence. "Raise the spirit of fight" is a quote from a Taliban songwriter. @Hut 8.5: I hope you will reconsider. Adding one line to the text will not be harmful to the project. To the contrary, it would dispel any confusion.[6][7] JaakobouChalk Talk 01:04, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose - I dont understand what "poetic militancy" is supposed to mean. This strikes me as an attempt to say that users may only show support on ones user page for only one of two sides in an ongoing conflict, the examples cited make that fairly clear. And, if Im not mistaken, this suggestion is a fairly clear violation of an AE imposed topic ban. nableezy - 22:46, 12 November 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose I would like to post "Je suis la plaie et le couteau!", translated I am the wound and the knife. This is from a Charles Baudelaire poem. There have been a few rock songs named I am the knife. Poetic militancy? I think of a more piss poor choice of wording. So are we going to ban people from quoting a song by Rage against the Machine? The rules already what the change intends to cover. The current rules focus more on intent than speech. The change focus more on speech than intent. Context is everything. Viva la Raza can be both benign and polemic. It depends on context.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 02:06, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Serialjoepsycho: I agree that intent matters most. Could you propose a phrasing that focuses more on intent (of militant advocacy) than speech? Rage against the machine quotes can be problematic (putting it mildly) if the context is akin to "#JeSuisCouteau". JaakobouChalk Talk 06:51, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Little red riding hood could be used could be problematic in the wrong context. And the languages as it is right now covers exactly what you want. #JeSuisCouteau is polemic. The French phrase means I am the knife. There are possible instances where the phrase won't be, but I find it very unlikely an editor with a strong focus on WP:ARBPIA related articles would be doing anything other than making a polemic statement. Our policies are not suicide pacts, an ARBPIA editor not really going to be able to say you need to AFG because they like French poetry. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:28, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- @Serialjoepsycho:
- Perhaps using examples with tiny quotes was unclear. The sources themselves[8][9][10] were meant as example which names or clearly illustrates an adversary of a living breathing dispute with casualties. On wiki, paraphrases about Jews, Israeli settlers and Zionists are theoretically clear violations of policy. Pragmatically, it takes long discussions and some participants exhibit misunderstanding of policy and purpose of Wikipedia. How would you phrase it to reduce confusion and long discussions? JaakobouChalk Talk 11:09, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- I wouldn't be interested in reducing long discussions and I'm not really seeing much more confusion than other conversations on how a rule should be interpreted and applied.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 11:28, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
- Little red riding hood could be used could be problematic in the wrong context. And the languages as it is right now covers exactly what you want. #JeSuisCouteau is polemic. The French phrase means I am the knife. There are possible instances where the phrase won't be, but I find it very unlikely an editor with a strong focus on WP:ARBPIA related articles would be doing anything other than making a polemic statement. Our policies are not suicide pacts, an ARBPIA editor not really going to be able to say you need to AFG because they like French poetry. -Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:28, 13 November 2015 (UTC)
Talk: The Hidden Wiki
The recent revision of this Article, does not make sense.
Birdymckee (talk) 05:25, 13 November 2015 (UTC)Birdymckee