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:::::It would take a developer about 10 seconds to code the new rights, that's easy with mediawiki... probably just as easy for WP as with a single server, but I wouldn't know. We're still discussing how one becomes a Sheriff. I doubt the discussions would be burdensome. As to addressing any "perceived" failures of the other structures, have at it... you'll be the hero I would like to be, if I could think of a way to do it. I think just maybe that this ''is'' a way of fixing them. They may need the support of this further structure. For example, they need the local knowledge the Sheriff would develop. I've ''seen'' admins get driven off, and their specialized knowledge thus lost, but it would be hard to drive a Sheriff off if he obeyed his rules. And Sheriffs should be cautious, but are given sufficient tools that they can still be effective without getting in trouble. '''BE'''—<span style="background:black;color:white;padding:2px 7px 4px 0px;text-shadow:white 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;font-size:100%;">—'''Critical'''</span><sub>__[[User_talk:Becritical|Talk]]</sub> 03:18, 8 February 2011 (UTC) |
:::::It would take a developer about 10 seconds to code the new rights, that's easy with mediawiki... probably just as easy for WP as with a single server, but I wouldn't know. We're still discussing how one becomes a Sheriff. I doubt the discussions would be burdensome. As to addressing any "perceived" failures of the other structures, have at it... you'll be the hero I would like to be, if I could think of a way to do it. I think just maybe that this ''is'' a way of fixing them. They may need the support of this further structure. For example, they need the local knowledge the Sheriff would develop. I've ''seen'' admins get driven off, and their specialized knowledge thus lost, but it would be hard to drive a Sheriff off if he obeyed his rules. And Sheriffs should be cautious, but are given sufficient tools that they can still be effective without getting in trouble. '''BE'''—<span style="background:black;color:white;padding:2px 7px 4px 0px;text-shadow:white 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;font-size:100%;">—'''Critical'''</span><sub>__[[User_talk:Becritical|Talk]]</sub> 03:18, 8 February 2011 (UTC) |
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::::::Focusing just on the the RfS procedure, how would it be different from the much-maligned RfA process? <b>[[User:Will Beback|<font color="#595454">Will Beback</font>]] [[User talk:Will Beback|<font color="#C0C0C0">talk</font>]] </b> 03:42, 8 February 2011 (UTC) |
::::::Focusing just on the the RfS procedure, how would it be different from the much-maligned RfA process? <b>[[User:Will Beback|<font color="#595454">Will Beback</font>]] [[User talk:Will Beback|<font color="#C0C0C0">talk</font>]] </b> 03:42, 8 February 2011 (UTC) |
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çThat's what we're trying to work out. Something streamlined but tight enough to catch those who would tend to abuse the role. Any suggestions? '''BE'''—<span style="background:black;color:white;padding:2px 7px 4px 0px;text-shadow:white 0.118em 0.118em 0.118em;font-size:100%;">—'''Critical'''</span><sub>__[[User_talk:Becritical|Talk]]</sub> 03:51, 8 February 2011 (UTC) |
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:::::::Honestly, I'm not worried about any 'perceived failures'. for the most part I think admins do an admirable job, though there are places where they goof up or get tangled in their own nonsense (<...ahem...>). My real interest in this (if you must know) is in developing and rationalizing the community structure. Frankly, wikipedia has reached and passed the size where it can continue to function as a semi-organized, loosely-structured, rule-of-thumb-oriented association of peers. If the project wants to mature, it has to lay down a solid, consistent set of standards about behavior, and some means of enforcing them (the way any community anywhere eventually must do). The sheriff system does both, in one neat philosophically-beautiful package. |
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:::::::The RfS procedure would be different then AfD because it's not an approval process. Editors who meet the basic edit count requirement can count on being approved unless someone can give a clear and reasonable reason to reject them. no 70% thing, no silly 'me too's... I'm sure that some people will take the opportunity to vent their frustrations about various editors, but unless those frustrations come with a clear set of diffs showing some severe breach of wikipedia policy it shouldn't make a difference. frankly, I personally would even discard the discussion period and just leave it that anyone who's edited long enough and wants to sheriff should be allowed to, but people seem to feel more comfortable with some kind of discussion procedure attached. |
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:::::::The appointment process isn't a vote, it's a consensus discussion. The way I see it, volunteers will only be rejected if there's some clear history - they'd had fights on the page before, they've had fights with one or more of the current participants, they've previously expressed strong views about the topic... It shouldn't be an ''"I don't like that person"'' sort of thing. And don't worry about multiple discussions, for two reasons: |
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:::::::#There's not that much to discuss: |
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:::::::#*once you've become a sheriff, you're a sheriff until you quit or lose your badge (that discussion only happens once) |
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:::::::#*choosing a sheriff only happens once (unless the sheriff screws up) and that shouldn't be a complex conversation - just a question of whether the sheriff has an obvious conflict |
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:::::::#*Most complaints about sheriffs require no discussion whatsoever. for example, say an editor posts the comment ''"That was a really '''stupid''' thing to say"'', and a sheriff redacts it as uncivil. Well, that comment clearly adds nothing to any content discussion, and is clearly uncivil, so it is clearly within the purview of the sheriff to redact it: hence no automatic problem for the sheriff. So how far will that editor get with sysops trying to argue that a comment like that needs to be restored? Anyone who tries to make an ''extended'' argument that s/he has a right to call other editors' posts 'stupid' is probably just digging his or her own grave. In most cases (in my estimation) you'll have a two or three day period where editors try to make silly arguments like that before they start to recognize that the discussion rules have changed on the page, and after that they'll stop doing the problematic behavior and stop complaining about the sheriff. |
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:::::::#Compared to the normal process of a page that's in trouble - extended bitch-fests on the talk page, multiple noticeboard battles, multiple extended ANI kerfluffles - the handful of discussions related to sheriffing would be a drop in the bucket. As I've said elsewhere, I fully expect a sheriff to cut the volume of text produced on a troubled page by a factor of 100, because most of the posts on pages like that are heated comments that have no business being there. will it be totally without hitches? no. will it be anything close to the rage-fests you saw on pages like Climate Change and R&I? hardly. |
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:::::::Last point: I don't think sheriffs want to use their powers ''aggressively''; I kind of picture sheriffs being circumspect about things - minimal action needed to achieve desired result (which is civility and peace on the page). You can do an awful lot without blocking anyone so long as people are aware that you ''can'' block them. Honestly, the only real reason sheriffs need the power to block is that (inevitably) someone is going to challenge the sheriff's authority and engage in problematic behavior despite being warned. Those editors will get blocked once, maybe twice - as often as needed for them to realize that the blocks will stick - and then they will re-evaluate their behavior on the page. ''That's'' the goal, to trigger that re-evaluation of behavior. As I said, sheriffs are there to change the page dynamic, not to sanction people, and the power to block is just a lever to make that change happen. --[[User_talk:Ludwigs2|<span style="color:darkblue;font-weight:bold">Ludwigs</span><span style="color:green;font-weight:bold">2</span>]] 06:12, 8 February 2011 (UTC) |
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== Interaction with other DR == |
== Interaction with other DR == |
Revision as of 06:12, 8 February 2011
Abuse
What happens if this is abused, as admin ship is on occasions?Slatersteven (talk) 14:14, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- First off, note that abuse is much easier to identify that it is with normal sysops, because of the restricted nature of what a sheriff can do. Sheriffs have a clear and limited mandate, and are held to a higher standard: If they can justify their acts as unbiased and necessary for the preservation of peace on the page they should be more or less immune, but if there's even a reasonable suspicion that they've gone awry then the community should take action. There are different gradations: a sheriff who makes an error in judgement should probably get a reminder about the restricted mandate, then be allowed to do a mea culpa and get back to work. A sheriff who seems not to understand the limited mandate and consistently behaves in un-sheriff-like ways should be removed and replaced, possibly with a bar on sheriffing again until they understand the rules better. A sheriff who grossly and intentionally violates the limited mandate (e.g. where someone volunteers to sheriff on a page specifically to use those powers to push through a POV), should be removed, barred from sheriffing, and probably desysoped for the violation of community trust. It's pretty much like cops in the real world: they should be given broad benefit of the doubt because they are doing an unpleasant job for the community's benefit, but woe unto them if they violate that community trust.
- It's actually a fairly self-balancing system. Sheriffs can pretty much guarantee to ruffle feathers on a page, and editors with ruffled feathers will be watching and documenting every darned thing the sheriff does, looking for a way to get him/her in trouble. perceived abuse will be noticed and reported rapidly, and evaluation of such claims is straight-forward (does the reported incident lie within the sheriff's limited mandate or not?). Sheriffs will get quick feedback on their actions, will have an incentive to stick to the letter of their mandate religiously, and the clear specification of that mandate means that whole thing will be handled with far less wiki-drama than your normal ANI "this sysop is being mean to me" thread. --Ludwigs2 16:02, 29 January 2011 (UTC)
- Im seem to recall that that has all be sadi about admin ship, yet admins regulay abuse their power with apparetn impunity. Such as the recent incident over Carol where admins clealry acted in a way that was (at best) partial. Unless it is will and not should then we will get the saem cabalisation gangs of Sherifs protecting their pets. Its not only the rules, but the enforcement that would have to be tougher.Slatersteven (talk) 14:02, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
- Slater, pardon me for leading off with this, but you really need to (1) pay more attention to your typing, or (2) invest in a background spell checker. posts like above are hard to parse, and make it hard to take you seriously. I mean, nine spelling/grammar errors in one short paragraph??? My 12 year old niece wouldn't do that badly, ever...
- The key difference here is that the rules for a sheriff are specific and restrictive. The problem with controlling normal sysops is that sysops have broad powers, more or less complete autonomy, and an ambiguous mandate. Anyone who wants to say that a sysop is doing something s/he shouldn't be doing has to get over the hurdle that no one has a clear idea of what a sysop should be doing, so such discussions boil down to wandering debates with huge loopholes and lots of wiggle room. That's not the case here, where the intent is to restrict the job to a limited area of action and take a jaundiced view of behavior that seems to step outside that area. It will be easy to tell when a sheriff is doing something s/he oughtn't, and quickly resolvable by removing the sheriff (who is only there because the community asked him/her to be there int he first place).
- In short, I understand your concern, but the system is designed specifically to minimize that concern Rogue sheriffs will get the axe without fuss, muss or bother. --Ludwigs2 15:29, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
- I would suggest then the addition of a new restriction. "that no Sheriff may be appointed to pages that they have been involved in acting in the role of an editor or as a party to dispute.” Lets make sure that the old gangs do not show up by having truly uninvolved sheriffs.Slatersteven (talk) 16:21, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
- Well, that would probably be a natural part of the selection process, but it's easy enough to work in. I'll add it. --Ludwigs2 17:47, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
- HAs it been added yet>Slatersteven (talk) 13:19, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
I see two things here: one, that a sheriff would need to apply the rules equally to people on both sides of a debate. I've seen it happen otherwise. Second, a sheriff would need to be someone who is inexpert not only in the subject area, but also in the kinds of debates taking place. There are too many people on WP who simply have an ax to grind concerning particular types of POV pushing, whether it be about race, politics, or other kinds of things. These admins have seen so much POV pushing that they are angry, and they will be unable to see that a POV pusher may have a point. They will subtly favor one group over another. I really don't like it that the admin corps is going to enforce this. If this is what we're going to do, then create a new usergroup in addition to admins. Here's what I propose:
Create a new usergroup called "sheriff" like this
$wgGroupPermissions['sheriff']['block'] = true;
That added to the WP Localsettings file would add a new usergroup and people could be given that right (by a bureaucrat), as "temporary admins" and they would be allowed only to block users who are editing on the page where they've volunteered to be a sheriff. (And yeah, it's that simple to implement in mediawiki). BE——Critical__Talk 20:01, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Another suggestion: what if the editors on a particular page had to agree to accept the sheriff? They could be told they have to have a sheriff, perhaps, but they could choose which one they wanted by full consensus. Full consensus probably wouldn't be too hard to achieve on such a matter, if the pool of sheriffs were large enough. BE——Critical__Talk 01:36, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- I've added in most of your stuff, plus some other material. check it over. with respect to your last point, sure, if a group of editors decides they want a sheriff, they could ask (either over at AN, or maybe on a special Sheriff's noticeboard for things like that). That's kind of covered under the 'Various procedures for doing so may occur...' bit.--Ludwigs2 09:49, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Two problems jump out at me. First, the name is too reminiscent of Citizendium's constables.
- Secondly, a bigger concern is that admins do this kind of thing already. Why would a special group need to be formed for it? SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 10:08, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Also, the reverting back to a version of the sheriff's choice is highly problematic for all the obvious reasons. Admins have leeway to do this now, but it has to be used sparingly—there has to be something like a BLP violation, or some other clearly inappropriate thing. We can also choose to revert to a version before a 3RR violation. But making a purely editorial decision (this is the best version) is not on. And I think I saw somewhere on the page (though now I can't find it) that sheriffs should apply their restrictions to all parties equally? SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 10:17, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Why so many 'mays' A sheriff who breaks rule A may lose his powers. Sorry but if they have extraordinary powers then the sanctions need to be extraordinary too. I would say that any sheriff, who is found to have broken the rules, should not may, lose their status as a sheriff.Slatersteven (talk) 13:19, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- @Slim: I've never edited (or even looked) at Citizendium, so I don't know what constables do there, or why the comparison is problematic. That being said, the idea here is to create a class of 'Officers of the Peace' (aka cops), and so any appropriate name is going to be reminiscent of every other appropriate name. unless, that is, you want to reach for obscure referents. The thing I like about the TS name is that it retains that sense of lawlessness that Wikipedia already prizes - 'sheriff' feels more freewheeling and liberal while 'constable' sounds stuffy and establishment oriented (to my ear anyway). do you have a better suggestion?
- with respect to reversion - this kind of thing isn't strictly necessary, but it's a useful tool for the toolbox. As noted, the goal here is to take away the advantages of bad behavior. One of the more frequent activities I see in page fights is editors struggling over which version gets displayed to the public during discussions, and this often has ramifications for the discussion - editors who manage to get their preferred version displayed will often drag their heels or try to squelch discussion, because they already have what they want. and that's not even considering tendentious edits and reverts in mainspace designed merely to infuriate other editors. Giving the sheriff power to dictate a particular version of the page for the purpose of the discussion pulls the rug right out from under that. If it helps, think of it as an ad hoc implementation of flagged revisions for troubled pages. Remember, the operant thought here is that sheriffs are going to be heavily monitored by page participants and sysops at AN, and will lose the sheriff status if they do anything controversial or one -ided, or at least anything that they cannot explain adequately on demand.
- @Slatersteven: I'm still rewriting. however, I do want to leave the opportunity for sheriffs to explain an action and have them discussed rather than just get a bureaucratic axe on appearances. I expect some acts might look odd at first blush, but actually have decent reasons behind them which place them well within the Sheriff's scope. We wouldn't want good sheriffs de-sheriffed for doing their job well. --Ludwigs2 17:04, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- I am not sugesting that what I am saying is that if a 'cop' breaks the rules (and is found to have broken the ruels) there should be no may about them being sanctioned (and indead givent the extent of their powers I see no reason why they should not lose those for even minor infringements). I see that this will be the same as aminship with 'Cops' arguing the toss about the fact they did not breach the rules for days on end at RFC's. There is also the issue of consesnsus, If some one does indead become an advocacy 'cop' then he will have allies who will step into any complaint and assist.Slatersteven (talk) 17:18, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hi Ludwigs, constables on Citizendium are or were the admins, and the name attracted a fair bit of ridicule because of the cop aspect. We had a similar thing on Wikipedia years ago, which didn't last, and I'm writing now entirely from memory, but it was an investigations/mediation group that offered to troubleshoot at any article it was invited to look at, and it also used cop imagery, and was sunk almost entirely because of the name. So I think "sheriff" wouldn't work. SlimVirgin TALK|CONTRIBS 17:19, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- So why not call them a Protector? Or (as a joke) a page lord.Slatersteven (talk) 17:22, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- lol - thank you for not suggesting "unterführer". The two keys to making this not a joke are establishing authority and legitimacy. achieve that and it will work, fail to, and it won't. To my mind the name is largely irrelevant, because what's ultimately going to make it fly is the broad understanding that this person (whatever s/he's called) can make it impossible to achieve editing goals on an article unless the goals are sought in civil, deliberative discussion. To use a not-great analogy, this is the same reason they have teachers in study hall: the teachers don't do anything, they just inhibit the kids from acting out on the normal hijinks that kids will get into unsupervised. Without the hijinks, the kids either sit in boredom or study; what else is there to do? The teacher needs to have the authority to send students to the principle, obviously, and needs to pay attention to stop sneaky hijinks, but once that authority is recognized as legitimate it almost never needs to be used because the rules get respected.
- and you're right about all the 'mays'. I'll fix that now. --Ludwigs2 21:05, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
I changed the reverting back part per SV. These Sheriffs have greater powers than current admins at the pages they monitor. Their mandate is for much deeper control than I've ever seen an admin take under the current system. In accordance with this, they have to have stricter rules so they don't abuse their powers. But of course there should be consensus among neutral editors that they did abuse them. You can't have a Sheriff feeling too unsafe. It would be embarrassing to actually lose your status.
I have another suggestion, which I don't really like, but which might make this fly much more easily: give Sheriffs the ability to give page bans, and subject area bans, but not blocks. However, if an editor breaches a ban, a sysop should automatically block. That way, there won't be so much blather about it.
The Sheriff should have the power to make a call on consensus and then enforce it for a period of time- say a month or a week: once consensus is reached you don't want a couple of editors to come in and say "oops, no consensus anymore."
I'd be fine changing the name... how about "Crisis Mediator?" Sound psychological enough? BE——Critical__Talk 03:22, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
And another suggestion: a Sheriff should try to get a bunch of other editors involved; that should be easier for a page under a Sheriff, because sometimes all the non-POV accounts have been driven off and would come back under a sheriff's protection. This would be necessary to getting real NPOV. Sometimes most of the current page editors are of one opinion, and they would call in a Sheriff thinking they will get their way. BE——Critical__Talk 03:30, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- BC, you're starting to lose the edge on this. it's very important from a sociological perspective that sheriffs are self-contained authorities. If we don't grant them the power to impose short blocks, then they have to rely on sysops for their power, and they will (almost immediately) find themselves having to request help and having to explain before they act, and that will mean that the editors they are trying to moderate will be able to start doing run-arounds (wheedling sysops, organizing disputes and debates, playing politics, attacking the sheriff's character and legitimacy). If that happens you might as well not even have a sheriff. they will not be able to do the job effectively, and will just be another bureaucratic layer for people to squabble in.
- I understand that this is very uncomfortable (and I know it will be uncomfortable for many people on project), but the only way this will work is if you give the sheriff complete self-contained authority over the page, and rely on the strict restrictions, close monitoring, and the ability to easily unseat him/her to keep his/her behavior in line. Imagine what the world would be like if police officers had to call their superiors each and every time they wanted to discharge their weapon: the ones who didn't get shot waiting for permission would not have one ounce of respect from anyone.
- I'm less concerned about the reversion thing, but I'd still like to see it available as an option. again, the point here is to give the sheriff the tools s/he needs to quickly, quietly, and efficiently put a stop to nonsense. In disputes, people use mainspace to do all sorts of nonsense. Half the time I see edit wars start, they start because a group of editors is trying to bait another editor into getting blocked so that they don't have to discuss changes in talk. Now a sheriff could put a stop to that quickly enough with BoP blocks, but that will leave legitimacy issues of its own (much like the 'always locked on the wrong version' thing with edit protection). Maybe we could compromise - rather than give sheriffs revert power, give the sheriff a special template that says something like "This article/section is currently disputed; discussion is ongoing"; they can slap that onto the article and insist that it stay there until editors work things out. The point is not to let the end product of a nascent edit war be seen as a victory for either side.
- In other news... If you really don't like the name, I suggest we go with the simple but factual "Moderator". That's really what they are, anyway, but I like the folksy feel of the word sheriff. Reminds me of The Andy Griffith Show.
- with the respect to your last point - I don't think sheriffs should canvass, and I think they should steer entirely clear of content issues. The most a sheriff would do would be to recommend an RfC or noticeboard posting to participants without insisting on it. if you get a page that's dominated by editors of a single mind, then what they decide is what they decide; The sheriff's only job is to make sure that if editors of a different opinion show up, the conversation remains civil and productive, and doesn't devolve to dirty tricks.--Ludwigs2 04:06, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Okay, so let's see if we can get them blocking power. I don't think Mediawiki gives the option for single page blocking, which would be ideal. I think moderation would be part of the job. Also, I think a moderator should have the ability to enforce consensus. IOW, make a judgment about what the consensus is, and not let one or two objecting editors mess it up for at least a while. Install a consensus version, and then continue discussion, then a week later maybe there's a change if someone still objects. It should be official also that a Sheriff can block/ban for continual IDIDNTHEARTHAT which has been explained in a thoroughly convincing way over and over. Which is about the same thing as saying enforce consensus for a period of time. As to reverting to an NPOV version of the page, that requires content decisions on the part of the moderator. But reverting to a page before the current dispute should be acceptable. BE——Critical__Talk 04:47, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- If you want to change it to "Moderator," there's a you can use. BE——Critical__Talk 05:18, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Sorry if you’ve already addressed this point somewhere else Ludwig, but if you have I haven’t seen it. Your proposal for this policy says that editors can make a complaint if they think the sheriff is using his power irresponsibly, and that if this is indeed the case it’ll lead to the sheriff being replaced. What I’d like to know is, who will be making the ultimate decision about whether the sheriff has misused his power? Will it just be determined by community consensus?
If that’s the answer, I’m concerned that situation will lend itself to the same cycle of bias that already exists. If an article is being dominated by a large enough group of editors with the same viewpoint, they would be able to select a sheriff who shares this viewpoint, who could then help drive away everyone who opposes this group. Even though this would obviously be an abuse of the sheriff’s power, if the dominant group of editors support him and all of the editors who oppose him have been driven away, it would still be impossible to reach a consensus to replace him. If this proposal gets implemented, how would we prevent this sort of situation from happening? --Captain Occam (talk) 16:32, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- I am also concearned about this. I have raised doubts about this as well. The idea that Sheriffs will not be able to enforce on pagesd that are already active on is one answer to this. But enforcement by consensus would still be a potential issue.Slatersteven (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sheriffs definitely should need to meet the criteria to be considered “uninvolved” in the pages they patrol, but I don’t think that’ll be enough on its own. There have been plenty of examples of nominally uninvolved administrators who’ve still enforced policy non-neutrally. From what I’ve seen, this problem seems to have arisen especially often in the climate change topic area. --Captain Occam (talk) 16:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- I agree its not enough. I shall start a new sectio to discuse this point.Slatersteven (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- The point of this (and this is an idea that might take some getting used to) is to make the sheriff's responsibilities as non-interpretive as possible, and to impress upon sheriffs that they should interpret their abilities narrowly. that makes the system self-balancing. so, as an example: the sheriff has a right to redact personal attacks, but shouldn't disrupt the flow of conversation; yet some editor posts "If that idea weren't so stupid it would be laughable, but assuming you idiots really want it, we could try this..." Possible sheriff actions and results
- Sheriff does nothing - s/he's not fulfilling the mandate for the job. should be reminded of the job or even replaced if the pattern continues.
- Sheriff redacts the first two clauses, leaving the "we could try this..." part - fulfills the job mandate, can in no way be seen as exceeding it.
- Sheriff redacts the whole line - fulfills the job mandate, but exceeds it - should be reminded of the restrictions, asked to restore the non-attack part, and if the pattern continues should be removed or replaced.
- What makes this work is the fact that some editor on the page is inevitably going to be (at minimum) miffed by any action that the sheriff takes which the editor thinks is unfair, and there will be an open thread somewhere (at AN, perhaps), where perceived unfairness can be reported. This creates a nice tension. On the one hand, miffed editors have an incentive to keep a watchful eye and complain about perceived unfairness, but must make clear and compelling arguments because the sheriff will be assumed to be acting in good faith by default. On the other hand, the sheriff (if he's not an idiot) will recognize that people he restricts are going to be pissed at him and looking for ways to get him in trouble, and that's a wonderful incentive for the sheriff to be a pedantic stickler about remaining within the office's limits and doing things correctly by the book. Add that there's nothing a sheriff can do that's seriously irremediable (redactions should all be inline, and the worst a sheriff can deal out is a 24hr block). Let's take the absolute worst case scenario I can think of: a sheriff goes totally off the deep end, starts redacting every post an editor made and starts blocking him every 24 hours. well, sheriffs don't have the power to lock pages, so the editor will be complaining in his talk (and probably emailing sysops), no one can really argue that the sheriff's actions are within the job's restrictions (even if they want to), so within 2-3 days at the outside all that sheriff's actions are undone, the sheriff is off the page, desheriffed and probably having a very unpleasant time at ANI; problem solved.
- The point of this (and this is an idea that might take some getting used to) is to make the sheriff's responsibilities as non-interpretive as possible, and to impress upon sheriffs that they should interpret their abilities narrowly. that makes the system self-balancing. so, as an example: the sheriff has a right to redact personal attacks, but shouldn't disrupt the flow of conversation; yet some editor posts "If that idea weren't so stupid it would be laughable, but assuming you idiots really want it, we could try this..." Possible sheriff actions and results
- I agree its not enough. I shall start a new sectio to discuse this point.Slatersteven (talk) 17:21, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- The trick is keeping the complaint threads tightly focussed on the "Is this allowable?" question, not "should this have been done" or "was this right". any questions of the latter type should be directed to a thread about modifying the rules that sheriffs work by; so long as a particular sheriff stays within the rules and applies them fairly he should be more or less immune. if he steps outside them, he should be toast.
- (Just as an aside, this is a standard move in governance everywhere: create a set of rules, make individals accountable for performing those rules correctly, but make any legitimacy questions focus on the rules themselves. cops do the job the legislature tells them they should do; people can't really argue with cops for doing their job, but should get the legislature to change laws they don't like.) --Ludwigs2 18:12, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Okay. I do think this could work, but you haven’t really answered my question. In the hypothetical situation you’ve described, where a sheriff goes off the deep end, who will actually be making the decision about whether or not they’ve abused their power? Even if what is and isn’t an abuse of their power is defined in completely objective terms, it’s still going to have to be someone’s job to examine complaints about this, and determine whether or not the complaints have any merit.
- From what you’ve said here, it sounds like this would be determined by discussion at AN/I, and the decision to replace the sheriff would be made by ordinary sysops in response to complaints there. Well, if the sheriff is a popular editor whose actions are supported by many other editors, even if those actions are clear policy violations, I’m a lot less confident than you that an AN/I complaint would be able to resolve the issue. You probably remember the way this went when we were dealing with Mathsci’s personal attacks last spring. Some of the comments in question were completely obvious and clear-cut violations of WP:NPA, and ArbCom eventually agreed with us about that, but every time this issue was brought up at AN/I most of the people there ended up supporting Mathsci regardless, and it was impossible to find a sysop who was willing to do anything about how he was acting. How can we be confident that this same situation won’t arise when someone is trying to report a popular sheriff who’s abused his power? --Captain Occam (talk) 23:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, we don't want Sheriffs to have the same problems as the Admin corps. BE——Critical__Talk 23:52, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- From what you’ve said here, it sounds like this would be determined by discussion at AN/I, and the decision to replace the sheriff would be made by ordinary sysops in response to complaints there. Well, if the sheriff is a popular editor whose actions are supported by many other editors, even if those actions are clear policy violations, I’m a lot less confident than you that an AN/I complaint would be able to resolve the issue. You probably remember the way this went when we were dealing with Mathsci’s personal attacks last spring. Some of the comments in question were completely obvious and clear-cut violations of WP:NPA, and ArbCom eventually agreed with us about that, but every time this issue was brought up at AN/I most of the people there ended up supporting Mathsci regardless, and it was impossible to find a sysop who was willing to do anything about how he was acting. How can we be confident that this same situation won’t arise when someone is trying to report a popular sheriff who’s abused his power? --Captain Occam (talk) 23:41, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Broader questions
Isn't there a fundamental contradiction in empowering a "commander-in-chief" for the purposes of policing the "consensus process"? Consensus decision making is the means elected to writing the encycopedia, and not the overall objective of the project itself. And in my mind, the dispute resolution process in place now does a better job of incorporating "consensus decision making" in dealing with disruptive behaviors than this proposal does. While I agree DR is unwieldly, frustrating and uneven--but isn't this true of consensus building in the writing of articles as well? Why is consensus inadequate in this one context-editor behavior? Should we appoint sheriffs for NPOV, original research, fringe, and sourcing disputes too? The most contentious disputes I've witnessed in WP took place in policy, RFC/U and AN pages. Do we need sheriffs for those too? And user talk pages? Why not cut to the chase and simply appoint "Town Sheriffs" to write the articles themselves?
All admins currently have most of these "powers" already, one significant exception being granted any sort of "dominion" for their decisions in particular articles. We currently have DR up the ying-yang. WP:3, Wikipedia:NPOVN, WP:WQA, WP:RFCC, WP:AN, WP:RFAR--why aren't they enough? Assuming for the sake of argument that the "town sheriff" will be a real human being, that is, a person who is no more and no less gifted with neutrality, intelligence, and good intentions in DR, what do we expect the office Town Sheriff will accomplish that ordinary adminship through DR doesn't? Professor marginalia (talk) 17:50, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- Prof Marginalia: First let me point out that I'm trying to strike a personal balance here. I'm relying on a whole lot of research and academic training in the construction of this, but I don't really want to come off as an authority, so I am intentionally underplaying things that I could (literally) write volumes about. I'm only saying that because I'm having a hard time striking that balance correctly, and so I apologize if I'm coming across as confusing in the following response.
- The thing I recognize that generally is not immediately evident to most people is that deliberations (in the formal sense of discussions aimed at achieving collective goals) always operate on two distinct levels:
- the ostensive level: things that are actually being discussed and considered by the group.
- the structural level: actions and things involved with determining intra-group dynamics and interpersonal relations.
- When wikipedia people talk about consensus they are almost always thinking solely about the first point - consensus as the process of discussing the material - and generally don't recognize that consensus is first and foremost a structural ideal. Equality among editors, civil interaction, use of reason, reference to real-world sources: these are conceptions about the structure of the discussion that apply independently of any particular content that might be discussed on a particular page. If you've ever participated in real-world mediation you can see this in action: professional mediators use a variety of tools designed to construct an artificial discussion structure so that people can escape whatever entrenched social dynamics are preventing proper communication. For example, any time you hear a mediator say something innocuous like "So, John, you've heard what Matilda has to say: what's your response to that?", the mediator is implicitly (for the short list) (i) putting John and Matilda on the same social level, (ii) enforcing turn taking, so that everyone gets heard, and (iii) legitimizing both John and Matilda's opinions, and their right to express an opinion in that context. Freeing up the conversation structurally like that is a necessary first step in real-world mediation; it's what allows further substantive discussion to happen.
- Wikipedia has almost no structural controls. In fact, wikipedia follows an 'ignore until punishment-time' strategy. We basically allow editors to do and say anything they want until they "go overboard", and then start applying cumulative warnings and sanctions; worse, the "gone overboard" criteria varies dramatically according to subjective sociological factors (time-on-project, popularity, impressions of factual correctness, etc.). This creates a conversational structure that (despite its superficial appearance of broad freedom) is actually anti-liberal and anti-egalitarian: it encourages demagoguery, cliquishness, Machiavellian intrigues, and other rhetorical gambits as editors unconsciously try to create a conversational structure that gives them advantages in the ostensive deliberation. You see this in real-world mediation as well: If it's corporate mediation, for instance, managers will often expect to be seated at the head of the table (an empowered position), and will get miffed if they are asked to sit at the side of the table opposite workers; even then, managers will often try to adjust the agenda for the mediation to focus on their concerns and avoid worker's concerns.
- This whole thing is designed to create a particular and favorable structure for conversations without actually affecting the ostensive deliberation itself. Real-world deliberative bodies almost invariably use some variation of Robert's Rules of Order to accomplish the same task, but RRO isn't suited for the kind of free-ranging discussion that happen on wikipedia - that would require an authoritatively-structured system that would not work (or be appropriate) on project. instead, wikipedia needs a retroactive remedy - let people say what they want, but quickly rein them in when they start to go off in bad structural directions, and do it before it has the chance to amplify.
- There's no more contradiction in 'enforcing consensus processes' than there is in a liberal society choosing to establish laws for itself. Anarchic democracy is a beautiful system if you have a community of people with the wisdom and detachment of buddhist monks. However, I don't think anyone would accuse wikipedia of that, and for a less enlightened community, structure is a decided blessing.
- The reason why a separate 'sheriff' class is useful is four-fold:
- legitimacy. Sysops have all the power they need, yes, but it's too easy to delegitimize their actions. The few times I've seen sysops try to intervene on pages in ways consistent with what I've been talking about here, they have been roundly assaulted and abused for overstepping their bounds (or worse crimes against wikipedia). By setting up a separate class, we can imbue the class with the necessary powers, and place necessary restrictions on the use of those powers, and remove all legitimacy objections at the start.
- limitations. sysops have a lot of concerns aside from the flow of discussion, including more serious sanctions and policy considerations. when sysops enter page conflicts they are usually inclined to start evaluating things more broadly than a sheriff would be allowed, and that (again) starts to impact on their legitimacy. Sheriff's have one general task: they do it well or they get removed. no conflicts.
- accountability. again, sheriffs have one clear, general task. if they perform it badly they lose their sheriff status and no one has to worry about them again. Contrast that with sysops, and the painful process of evaluating and desysopping even the worst admin, and you'll see the accountability advantage.
- division of labor. last, and possibly most important, shuffling off these kinds of non-project-threatening behavioral issues onto a class of sheriffs frees up sysops tremendously. They can apply their efforts to other, more important tasks; they can enter into discussions about more serious sanctions against editors without being burdened by a history of minor conflicts. In fact, I fully expect that many sysops will become sheriffs as well, because then they can choose between acting as a sheriff (which wold give them community legitimacy to protect them from certain kinds of recriminations) or acting as a sysop (which gives them a greater range of powers), so long as they were careful to keep the two separate.
- Long post, sorry, but I wanted to get things across as clearly as possible.
- P.s.per NPOV, fringe, rs, etc.: sheriffs would not engage in content discussions - they are structure-only. A sheriff might be appointed to a dispute over (say) some issue of NPOV, but he would have nothing to say or do about the content issue, he would just keep he conversation within the bounds of behavioral guidelines. --Ludwigs2 20:39, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
- This in-depth explanation is useful, thanks. I'm pessimistic that this sheriff would be spared the "painful recriminations" like those admins are subjected to, but leaving that aside...
- Some of the most brutal "consensus building" I've seen on the project has taken place outside the confines of the articles themselves--in RFC/U and AN pages, the date linking dispute, FA reviews, policy and guidelines proposals, AFDs, and spread over an array of articles within a given topic area. Given the fact that in highly controversial topics, coming to a consensus over what's encyclopedically valid content within the article relies so heavily on evaluating claims against sources (and far less so, in my mind, inviting one-and-all to spout their own opinions, which are already overabundant as a rule)--how can the sheriff facilitate this necessary task without judging content? I ask this because in my experience editing controversial topics, it almost always comes down to this. Wouldn't the content neutral Town Sheriff idea be more realistic in smoothing consensus building when the legitimacy of sourced content isn't at issue?
- Models in place now that are often imposed once the "community's patience has been exhausted" include arbitration imposed article probation and discretionary sanctions, which tend to eliminate most "legitimacy" conflicts over admin blocks, etc. And true, or not true? This is often, but not always, successful in eliminating disruptions in the article(s)--even while certain editors may continue to push the boundaries, escalate through other means, and subject themselves to tighter restrictions. Editors who receive these "discretionary sanctions" frequently moan and groan more than ever, and campaign about how corrupt, arbitrary or unfair the process is, attempting to de-legitimize the authority of the arbitration committee and administrators. How would this be any different under the authority of a Town Sheriff? Wouldn't the discipline they try to impose be even easier to undermine? Professor marginalia (talk) 18:51, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- First, no, they shouldn't have any trouble maintaining their legitimacy if we make the rules tight enough. Then it would be a cut-and-dried case of whether or not they've broken the rules. A normal administrator has a lot of leeway, and thus more ways they can be attacked. As to whether the sheriff would need to rule on content: there is, contrary to Ludwigs' desire, a very tight body of rules regarding content. If strictly followed, those rules practically dictate content. The Sheriff can comment on procedure and policy. What you're asking here is what happens when a couple of editors are going against consensus, based on their arguments and policy. What does the Sheriff do if they're right and yet going against consensus? That's a good question, and I don't think we've answered it yet. The following is a possible way, but is it too much like determining content? I would love for you to review the argument on the Jerusalem talk page, because I think it's a perfect example: fully RS sources are ambiguous on the matter of whether Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. POV pushers are trying to keep the statement that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" in the article lead. It's a totally obvious case of POV pushing and breaking the policy. What would I do if I were a Sheriff there? First, I think I'd be able to say that there are RS sources on both sides. Everyone there agrees on that. I could do a vote/hand count to determine if that's consensus. Given that consensus, I could assume that if WP takes a stand on the matter, it's against the part of NPOV that says we describe the controversy. I could then request a refutation of the proposition that stating in the lead that "Jerusalem is the capital of Israel" is not taking sides on the matter, that it is, in fact, merely "describing the controversy." Having asked that leading question, I could determine whether the editors who are practicing IDIDNTHEARTHAT on the matter are being disruptive. I could then warn/sanction them, and make a determination that in fact we need to change the article to the new proposed lead or something like it. But still... what if you have 10 POV-push editors who want it one way, and 1 who is right but going against consensus? Do we just enforce CIV and let the editor who is actually upholding the rules be driven from the article? We have, perhaps, the same problem as usual, in that we can't enforce NPOV and consensus doesn't always support NPOV. Ludwigs? BE——Critical__Talk 19:30, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Also, Arbitration enforcement has the same problems as usual for administrators, in that it's easy to attack someone who is relying on their own judgment too much. BE——Critical__Talk 19:32, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- I largely agree with you that policies practically "dictate content" to a large extent, at least according to how I interpret those policies. But in my experience, disputes in articles are almost always entangled with disputes over whether or not rules have been broken. The broadly agreed "cut-and-dried" situations rarely lead to extended disruptions in articles because the existing systems work well managing them. But "cut-and-dried" situations often go unrecognized because (too many times) editors chime in who haven't read the sources or acquainted themselves with the topic enough to know which sources are good and which ones are crap. (That's a problem with RFCs in my opinion-it tends to stimulate "just some guy's opinion" from flyby's giving no attention to sourced opinion on the issue.)
- To be effective, admins, arbs and the Town Sheriff all have to constrain themselves to rules but there is no alternative, they also must be empowered to "use their own judgment". Professor marginalia (talk) 20:20, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- (e/c) The fundamental difference between sheriffing and arbitration (and really the key to this concept) is the way that power and authority is localized in a single individual whose behavior is limited by established rules and fully accountable. Editors dissatisfied with the sheriff's behavior should be directed to start a discussion about changing the rules; the sheriff's behavior should only come into question where the sheriff breaks or stretches the rules. that's what saves the sheriff from undue recriminations (he's just doing the job, as written and authorized).
- Now compare the two: in the arbitration model, there have been weeks of ugliness at the article page, and further weeks of ugliness at noticeboards, ANI, or other administrative venues before it even gets to arbitration. and then there are further weeks of ugliness as various people lay out their cases about how evil and horrible other editors have been. The arbitration result is usually restricted to sanctions on people: topic bans, admonishments, instructions to sysops that they can block certain editors for certain behaviors, etc. By contrast, a sheriff, steps into the talk page dispute directly and puts a stop to the nastier elements of the wrangling right there: he doesn't really have the power to sanction people themselves except in minor ways, but stops them from getting away with the kind of ugliness that would eventually lead to an arbitration case. In both approaches we get the same basic result - editors being more cautious about how they present themselves on the page - except the sheriff gives the results months earlier, in a way that doesn't actually excluding anyone from the conversation, and without all of the intermediary screaming, moaning, and ugliness.
- With respect to the 'necessary task' of evaluating content... this system relies on the dual-level observation I made above. The sheriff's job is essentially to enforce the liberal, egalitarian consensus structure that most Wikipedians would expect already exists (fair, reasonable discussion about content without nastiness, chicanery, or melodrama). Once the overt nastiness, chicanery, and melodrama are removed by the sheriff, the discussion in talk will be relatively calm and reasonable and it will become much easier for participants on the page to evaluate content discussion points on their merits. This may let the problem resolve itself, but more likely the varying sides will express their viewpoints in the most reasonable terms they can, and the conversation will get stuck there. This is actually a good state to be in, because it will clearly delineate the content differences without all of the superfluous interpersonal problems. At that point, the sheriff might do a number of things: make a suggestion for a compromise, suggest wording for a 3O or an RfC, suggest that mediation might be helpful, suggest that a particular policy or guideline is the solution to the problem and point the participants to a noticeboard... The sheriff doesn't have to judge content himself; he just has to remove all of the obstacles to reason and common sense that will naturally and inevitably crop up.
- (Just for an example, I've recently been involved in a discussion where one editor mostly relies on the the argument that a particular sourced viewpoint is being suppressed by advocate editors - he uses that line every time someone questions the reliability of his sources. A sheriff would simple redact that claim as uncivil wherever it occurred (without further judgment), implicitly forcing that editor to make an argument based on the merits of his sources rather than on the behavior of other editors. it would have saved the talk page a couple of thousand lines of cross-chatter and focused the issue right where it really needs to be.) --Ludwigs2 20:29, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- (after edit conflict comment. to prof M) yes, about using their own judgment. One of the most important qualities of authority is that the authority is trusted to act knowledgeably, responsibly, and independently within the boundaries of its mandate. The sheriff should be allowed to interpret the rules in terms of their spirit and intent and not be bound by their literal phrasing. There will obviously be an ongoing process of sheriffs taking action and the community retrospectively considering those actions and tweaking the rules to limit or expand the sheriff's power, but w should trust both that they will do their job well and that it will become evident and clear when they don't. --Ludwigs2 20:42, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Instatement process
I think it should be the same as for full Sysops, though it should be easier to get in considering that you get desysopped if you abuse your powers. Regular sysops can't be desysopped (really) so it's a big deal, but this is different. But if you just let people volunteer with only the vetting of "good standing," well, I can think of a number of editors who would get in and have no business being a sheriff or moderating skills. BE——Critical__Talk 04:51, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- I was actually thinking something milder - rather than requiring full community approval, the editor has to pass certain basic requirements, after which there's a waiting period of a week or so for others to register objections. basically it would be a "approved unless good cause to reject is shown" rather than "support needed to approve". I'd rather it didn't turn into a popularity contest, which would tend to stack the sheriff's box with editors who can gather lots of supporters. but more tomorrow - it's late here. --Ludwigs2 06:57, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm, well from what I gather, you've been in a lot of conflict areas. If you think that the editors who participate in what you call "gangs" would make good Sheriffs or would not be approved, then I would say you probably know what you are talking about. So like you say it's in the details. BE——Critical__Talk 07:01, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- My own preference is not to judge people. There are editors on-project I really, really despise, but I have to admit that (in their own twisted, dysfunctional way) they have the best interests of the project at heart. I would be comfortable with them being sheriffs for two reasons: (i) I expect that once they got the gist of it, they would see the value of it and try to execute it well, and (ii) if they tried to abuse it, I'd take them to ANI and get them desheriffed (and would thoroughly enjoy the process). It wouldn't be like trying to get them banned or blocked or sanctioned (where half a ton of their friends can come and whine about what good editors they are). if they break the rules, then all of the 'good editor' protestations are irrelevant: they're still bad sheriffs. they get desheriffed and can go back to being "good editors". --Ludwigs2 19:36, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm, well from what I gather, you've been in a lot of conflict areas. If you think that the editors who participate in what you call "gangs" would make good Sheriffs or would not be approved, then I would say you probably know what you are talking about. So like you say it's in the details. BE——Critical__Talk 07:01, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
SJS (Special Judicial Squad)
Who will judge the Judges? It has been pointed out that ther are already probloms wiht Sysop with cabals operating to protect (lets call them) tame admins. How are we going to determine if a judge has not upheld the law?Slatersteven (talk) 17:23, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- "There have been plenty of examples of nominally uninvolved administrators who’ve still enforced policy non-neutrally" I'm also concerned about this, and I've seen it too. We need to take as many precautions as possible without vitiating the role. One thing we need is to explain exactly when a ban or block is necessary, seeing that the Sheriff would be redacting other's posts. So when do they actually block/ban? And, one thing we could do is not have a judicial squad, but rather have judgments from editors who are not active, now or in the past, in the subject area broadly interpreted. How about that? But the main thing is as Ludwigs said: make sure that the rules are strict and clearly stated. If done properly we should be able to make it hard to subvert. BE——Critical__Talk 18:47, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sorry I should have made it clear that the SJS was not a sugestion but a referance to the idea of a cop, judge, jury and executioner ic one package (the Megacity One Judge system). The idea that the jury should consist of only uninvilved Edds will address many of my concearns.Slatersteven (talk) 14:15, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Banning and blocking
Will there be a right of appeal, whi will hear this appeal and will a sheriff be able to block user talk pages as well (thereby stopiig any potential appeals)? I( read it that they can only apply sanctions on the actual articels pages is that in fact the case?Slatersteven (talk) 21:07, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- blocks (and I assume bans) will be a maximum of 24 hours, and non-escalating - I see no reason for an appeal process. I someone gets blocked for grossly unfair reasons, the sheriff will be in trouble for it and the block will get undone if it the problem is realized before the day expires (obviously). but if it's a reasonable block within the sheriff's purview - well, 24 hours is not long to wait in the grand scheme of things, and it will be a very good incentive not to repeat whatever it was earned the block in the first place (those of you who have young kids will recognize the 'time-out' strategy of behavior modification).
- It will also do wonders to help editors realize that the "hurryhurryrushrushneeditrightNOW!" mindset is not the best way to approach Wikipedia. That alone will make the editing process so much more pleasant. --Ludwigs2 22:49, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Should it not be clearer (rather then based on assumption (which can only lead to abuse)) that any Sheriff actions are only for 24 hours. Also I note that 'you say only if its noticed', given the amount of power these paragons of NPOV will have that seems to me (again) to be almost an invitation to abuse the system. If you are a 'Rico' who uses thier powers to push a POV and you have enough support you will be able to manipulate the system to ensure an almost constant series of 24 hour bans. So exactly what procedures will be in place (rather then assuming the good intentions of those involved) to stop such a situation?Slatersteven (talk) 14:11, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- It might be wise to set up a special review board for Sheriffs. The board would have more of a guidance role, but in extreme cases would remove the sheriff from sheriffhood. BE——Critical__Talk 16:57, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- I thought he 24 hour thing was clear, but I can make it clearer if you like. and the "only if it's noticed" referred to cases where the blocked editor has to wait 24 hours before screaming to high heaven at ANI themselves. Most editors who feel they are being abused by a sheriff wouldn't wait that long (using their talk page and email to et other people to intervene on their behalf), but people have lives outside of wikipedia and it may take time for those kinds of appeals to result in fruitful action. That's all I meant.
- It might be wise to set up a special review board for Sheriffs. The board would have more of a guidance role, but in extreme cases would remove the sheriff from sheriffhood. BE——Critical__Talk 16:57, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- This is not intended to be like sysop problems, where a sysop can say "I judged that this was appropriate action, and I stand by that" and can basically fend off criticism indefinitely. the sheriff's abilities are narrowly enough construed that it is difficult for the sheriff to any serious POV-pushing without violating them. the most vulnerable point in the idea is in the 'subjective' fair-and-equal application point. but even that can be argued by an examination of diffs, and the worst that will happen is that one side of the discussion will be forced to be more civil than the other side (it's not like sysop intervention, where one side can actually be removed from editing through gamesmanship of that sort). In short, you guys worry too much.
- With respect to a review board, it's probably best to have other sheriffs review problems of this sort first, monitored by sysops. Other sheriffs will be more familiar with the ins-and-outs of the job, and will have their own reputations at stake. --Ludwigs2 19:07, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Blocks and bans
When does a Sheriff block or ban instead of redacting? BE——Critical__Talk 23:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Only at need. the way I envision it, something like the following process would be followed:
- one warning for inappropriate behavior, with request to self-revert or self-redact.
- subsequent actions redacted by sheriff
- blocking only in extreme cases.
- basically, I see sheriff's giving a 24 hour block for three primary reasons:
- gross, offensive, or otherwise over-the-top personal attacks: actual chill-blocks, because an editor is just raging.
- incitement to edit war: to my mind, sheriffs would enforce BRD - one editor makes an edit, another editor reverts it (BRD), next editor to revert after that earns a warning and is asked to self-revert, anyone who reverts after that (even if it's their first edit to the article) gets a 24hr block for incitement. there's no reason I can see for ever doing that third revert, as opposed to discussing in talk, except incitement.
- reverting a sheriff's actions: Sheriff's actions are authoritative, and that is the only way to maintain that authority on page. this is true of any cop, anywhere - the one sure way to win yourself a good time in handcuffs or night in jail is to disobey an officer's orders.
- The sheriff should be aiming to preserve civil dialog and keep order on the page, and he ought to follow a 'least action needed' rubric for doing that. --Ludwigs2 19:24, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, I just wanted to get that answered before getting more input on this. BE——Critical__Talk 19:39, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
Name
Any other potential names instead of "Sheriff?" SV for one had a problem with that name. BE——Critical__Talk 23:15, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
- Judge (it will appeal to comic nerds).Slatersteven (talk) 14:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Deputy, with the implication that the community has deputized the person to act on its behalf? BE——Critical__Talk 16:59, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- SOB?
- Deputy, with the implication that the community has deputized the person to act on its behalf? BE——Critical__Talk 16:59, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Look, I think we should just drop the name issue for now (because I doubt we're going to solve it), and discuss it when we present the idea to the greater community. there are a number of good options: sheriff or deputy, moderator, officer of agent (in the technical sense of someone empowered to do something), tongue in cheek ones like 'den mother'. let's get the idea across and worry about how it looks later. --Ludwigs2 18:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Just a quibble, but I don't think there's actually such a thing as a town sheriff. They're county officials. Peter jackson (talk) 11:25, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- 'Town sheriff' is a convention used in westerns. I think in the old west sheriffs were appointed by the county but assigned to work in particular towns - they didn't really monitor the range-land between towns (that was more the realm of US marshals), but kept order in and about the towns themselves. In the modern US, of course, Sheriffs are mostly relegated to things like prisoner transport and jail staffing, but they still patrol towns that are not incorporated or have no local police force of their own.
- But quibble accepted: I wasn't really aiming for historical accuracy. --Ludwigs2 01:17, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- "Topic sheriff" seems more appropriate than "town sheriff", unless they will only work on town articles. ;) "Moderator" is not taken, and seems closer to the actual role. Will Beback talk 02:50, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah, moderator probably has a much better chance. BE——Critical__Talk 03:08, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- But quibble accepted: I wasn't really aiming for historical accuracy. --Ludwigs2 01:17, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Difference from general probation
The ArbCom and, more rarely, the community occasionally imposes article probation which usually empowers any uninvolved admin to impose blocks and bans after warnings. If I understand correctly, this proposal would go further by allowing talk page redactions? It sounds a bit like a cross between "supervising admin", mediator, and content czar. Have there been specific problems with topics on probation that this would solve? Will Beback talk 22:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Administrators using ArbCom probation are still easy to attack. Sheriffs would be less easy to attack because of their limited mandate. They wouldn't have any control over content. They would perform partly as mediators. They would take some of the pressure off ArbCom, because they could intervene with some forcefulness before it was necessary to go to ArbCom. They would still be useful on pages under ArbCom sanction. For example, take a look at the Jerusalem page. That's under ArbCom's thumb. It needs a Sheriff to go in there and do a cross between mediation and protecting other editors from abuse of the ArbCom system, and regulation of disruptive accounts. A Sheriff would have a certain kind of power, which would allow focused intervention while protecting the Sheriff in ways which Admins are not protected. At the same time, the Sheriff's powers are not as broad. BE——Critical__Talk 23:37, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Adding: part of the problem of arbcom sanctions is the "any uninvolved admin" thing. This creates a number of problems:
- Any admin who takes action can be attacked on whether they are really uninvolved.
- Numerous purportedly uninvolved admins may have different ideas about what action to take, which can create disputes over any action taken
- There's no clear accountability. It's unclear in advance who might be taking an action on the page, and once an action is taken there's no clear metric of whether it was or wasn't appropriate, and the acting admin as any number of means of avoiding accountability.
- We had this problem just recently with Olive, Will. NuclearWarfare imposed a sanction - I could question NW's neutrality on the issue (and hence his status as uninvolved), I certainly questioned whether the act was appropriate and justified, but NW never bothered to respond to my assertions - you and Jim took all the burden of defending his actions, and then some third admin closed the case peremptorily, which of course means that NW's action never actually came into question or under discussion. All of which is fairly skanky, and none of which would affect a sheriff as construed here. --Ludwigs2 23:58, 6 February 2011 (UTC)
- Adding: part of the problem of arbcom sanctions is the "any uninvolved admin" thing. This creates a number of problems:
- OK, it's helpful to have actual cases to look at.
- No one questioned NW's bias before he applied the remedy, so in this scenario he could have been appointed/elected/designated sheriff for this probation. So what happens if someone questions the neutrality of a sheriff after they've applied a remedy? It becomes an ANI debate? In that case it's not unlikely that commentators will line up depending on their views of the topic and the involved editors, thereby creating a lot of drama and contention. I don't see how appointing a single person will reduce the purported bias issues versus the largely consensus-driven AE process. Will Beback talk 08:24, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- There are a couple of significant differences:
- Sheriffs can only block for 24 hours, nothing longer. The purpose of a sheriff is to make problematic behavior difficult and unrewarding giving editors an incentive to behave well; it is not designed to remove editors from discussion on a long-term basis, which seems to be the primary goal of arbitration.
- Sheriffs would be accountable for their actions, and couldn't get away with refusing to explain why they took a particular act. If they tried to get away with with the kind of extensive rule-bending that sysops regularly engage in, it would be both painfully obvious and immediately sanctionable.
- So, here's what happened on the TM page under the arb model: There was a long term squabble that ended up in arbitration. The only person admonished in that case was DocJames, and no one was sanctioned beyond some general restrictions placed on all actors. A year of so later NW imposes a 3 month topic ban on Olive that (so far as I can tell) was based on specious reasoning, using the "any uninvolved admin to impose sanctions at their discretion" clause. At the appeal, NW refused to explain his reasoning, and instead left everything in the hands of other admins who (first) tried to justify the action and (second) closed the appeal on what appear to be procedural grounds, without further discussion.
- There are a couple of significant differences:
- In fact, if you look at the bigger picture, the ultimate result of the arbitration process was to remove all of the editors from one side of the discussion long-term (through the actions of a number of different admins), leaving article editing solidly and solely controlled by the other side. Even assuming good faith all the way around, this is an undesirable result: (i) it's likely to lead to a POV article, (ii) it's likely to build bad feelings and alienate editors (even good editors), and (iii) regardless of the actual truth of the matter (which I don't know), it looks entirely like the system was manipulated by a faction to destroy a particular point of view. Frankly, I can't imagine what could have been done to make it look more like brutal, strong-arm politics, short of lining all the TM people up against a wall and shooting them.
- A sheriff on the same page would have forced the conversation to remain civil and focused on content. the excuse NW used for the 3 month topic ban (you know, that moment where Olive got baited by a pair of obvious meat-puppets) would have resulted in a round of 24 hour blocks and a reminder to discuss things in talk. Nothing a sheriff could do could possibly look as unfair and biased as the result that actually followed from the arb ruling, because the sheriff would have to do everything himself and couldn't hide a systematic bias by distributing it across multiple people. There's no guarantee that it would succeed, obviously, but then the only thing arbitration succeed in doing was blowing off one side of the discussion (which is a bit like resolving a marital dispute by strangling your spouse).
- The arbitration system is designed to amplify bad behavior to the point where editors can be removed from discussions; this sheriff system is designed to nix bad behavior so that editors will have to engage in good behavior to get what they want. do you see the difference? --Ludwigs2 09:58, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- The arbitration system is designed to amplify bad behavior to the point where editors can be removed from discussions; - that seems like a rather cynical approach to the current arbitration scheme. If it's true then it should be addressed directly with proposals for ArbCom reform.
- The case in question is under general probation because of a history of problems that led to an ArbCom case. One-day time-outs may be weak ammunition against (hypothetical) longterm SPA POV pushing accounts. There may be other topics, which haven't already been to the ArbCom, where this kind of remedy would be more effective.
- You are misinformed about the TM case and the number of editors there who have been topic banned. WP:ARBTM. Only two editors are currently topic banned, there are plenty of unbanned editors involved in the topic. Maybe it'd be better to use as an example a case with which you're more familiar.
- Admins are supposed to be accountable, and good ones are. Admins who have refused to account for their actions have been de-sysoped. I don't see how this proposal forces sheriffs to be any more accountable than admins or any other editor.
- I'm also concerned that sheriffs appoint themselves to a topic and then can only be removed by a consensus of the community. If there were unlimited sheriffs for a topic that wouldn't be a problem, but it looks like the job would go to whichever sheriff gets his name in first. The sole sheriff shiredom creates a powerful incentive for someone with a hidden bias to take control of a topic. A low threshold for being appointed sheriff could allow sock sheriffs to get appointed. That combination could be disastrous in high conflict topics like the EEML.
- Overall, I think the proposal is an understandable reaction to problems with dispute resolution process, but it would create major headaches of its own, including numerous community determinations and a method of gaming the system through the appointment of non-neutral sheriffs.
- Is there a way of taking some of these ideas and using them within the existing structures? For example, a mini-probation that would allow admins to give 24-hour blocks for bad talk page behavior. Will Beback talk 10:28, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm... There are a number of points where you've erred here, WIll; enough so that I have to give you bullet-point corrections. Sorry about that, but the extent of the misunderstandings requires a bit of bluntness:
- No offense, but you appear not to have actually read the proposal as written, because you are complaining about things that either aren't possible or are specifically excluded:
- Sheriffs do not appoint themselves to a topic. At best they ask permission at AN to work on a page, but more generally some discussion at AN asks them to take it on
- Sheriffs are not removed by consensus decision, sheriffs are removed when they violate a strictly limiting set of rules for their behavior. There won't be a whole lot debatable about whether they've violated the rules, because the rules are fairly clear.
- Sheriffs have not tools that allow them to 'take control of a topic'. I have no idea where you got that idea, since there's been extensive discussion against it here in talk.
- Sock sheriffs? Sheriffs have to have "a sufficient number of edits to demonstrate they are dedicated to the project", which I was thinking had to be in the 10000 edit range. If someone wants to build up a sock with 10000 reasonable edits just to get sheriff power that won't actually help them control page content... let 'em.
- Yes, admins are supposed to be accountable. Yes, good admins are. Not all admins choose to be, and when they choose not to be they almost invariably get away with it.
- I'm not trying to be informed about the TM case: I'm telling you precisely how it looks. You all may be pure as the driven snow and God's gift to wikipedia for all I know (or care - I'm happy to assume you're doing what you think is right), but you and DocJames and NW look like you've taken pains to remove the most prominent editors who oppose you by gaming the system to your advantage. Appearances matter.
- I'm not being cynical about arbitration; I'm explaining to you the predefined limits on arbitration. Arbitration does not rule on content, and it does not itself monitor articles or talk pages. It merely imposes restrictions on editors with respect to various actions, and empowers sysops to impose greater restrictions at need. It's a system that does nothing except set up ground rules for article participation, but leaves the implementation of those rules (and any subsequent restrictions on participation) to random sysops.
- Finally, the proposal is not a reaction to anything, and it's certainly not a reaction to you. I began this page months ago, and it is a carefully considered and thoughtful approach to solving a common problem on-project. You can disagree with the approach, but I would suggest to you (nicely) that you avoid ad hominem arguments, such as implying that I'm 'reacting' to things. Psychologizing of this sort is against talk page guidelines, and is unlikely (at least with me) to net any predictable result.
- seriously, dude... If you want to use ad hominem arguments, ok; but try to do it using something in which I don't have years of academic training and experience.
- No offense, but you appear not to have actually read the proposal as written, because you are complaining about things that either aren't possible or are specifically excluded:
- Now, I'm happy to sit here and explain things to you in an ongoing fashion if you want to continue arguing along these lines, but it would make both of our lives easier if you read the proposal (and this talk page) first and made reasonable and sensible critiques of the idea, rather than hyping up a bunch of imaginary horrors and trying to destroy the concept in the bud. There will be plenty of time for the "Oh Horror, This Must Be Stopped!" misperceptions once the proposal gets presented to the community, and I would rather deal with those kinds of concerns once and only once during the actual presentation of the idea rather than having to explain them repeatedly here, there and everywhere. If you don't have anything constructive to add, then your objection is noted and we will deal with that at the appropriate place and time. If you have an alternate idea, then I suggest you write it up elsewhere so you can be prepared to present it at pump (policy) when this gets there. If you have constructive critiques of this idea, I'm more than interested in hearing them, but (again) please do familiarize yourself with the actual project first. --Ludwigs2 18:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Hmmm... There are a number of points where you've erred here, WIll; enough so that I have to give you bullet-point corrections. Sorry about that, but the extent of the misunderstandings requires a bit of bluntness:
"In that case it's not unlikely that commentators will line up depending on their views of the topic and the involved editors, thereby creating a lot of drama and contention. I don't see how appointing a single person will reduce the purported bias issues versus the largely consensus-driven AE process. Will Beback" The rules for a Sheriff will be so strict that you will be able to tell exactly when he has or has not broken the rules. So gang deplorement will not effect him. This system also makes the Sheriff more of an expert on what is actually going on at an article. Under the current system, the admin can't be an expert, else he's involved. That's for good reason, since his powers are so broad, but an originally uninvolved Sheriff will have the protection to develop a bit of expertise. At the same time, he'll have to explain his actions. Beback, you can't do better with ArbCom and the current system, because you can't get past the arbitrary nature of admin actions. The Sheriff has, or should have, another tool, which is to build up and enforce a series of consensus changed to the article, only to be changed for good and new arguments. This is how a Sheriff would combat long-term SPAs. And yet the Sheriff will be able to point exactly to the discussion in which that consensus is reached. He is not acting to determine content himself. "Admins are supposed to be accountable, and good ones are" ROTFL!!!!!!! No offense, Beback. I think the Sheriff would be much more accountable than current admins, and also would be expected t be much better informed after a while. "it looks like the job would go to whichever sheriff gets his name in first" Good point. People on a page should have a Sheriff that they all trust. And they will be able to complain about a Sheriff's actions and get results if he's broken the clearcut rules. It's true that the community could be fooled into thinking a Sheriff was neutral when he wasn't, but that's impossible for the people on the page and the Sheriff's mandate doesn't give him enough power to show much bias without getting caught. And no, your idea about letting the current admin corps do it wouldn't work because the current corps isn't accountable enough on one end, and too easy to attack on the other. BE——Critical__Talk 17:04, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Perhaps I don't understand exactly how a sheriff comes to a topic. It sounds like the community has a discussion on AN, and someone(?) closes it with a determination that a sheriff is warranted. That discussion could take anywhere from a day to a week, and presumably could include all of the involved parties. As soon as the "Sheriff wanted" sign goes up the first one to volunteer for the job is automatically accepted. If there are complaints about his activity then a new AN thread is started and all of the involved editors can argue their cases. After day or a week of discussion someone(?) closes the discussion and either does nothing or declares a vacancy, after which a new sheriff volunteers. Any editor could also start a thread at AN over whether to end the shiredom at an article, with the discussion running from a day to a week before getting closed by someone (?).
- I'm also not sure I fully understand the "RFS" process: Request for Sheriff-ship. It'll be exactly like RFA? A one week vote following an acrimonious discussion of how many featured articles the editor has written and whether they know the dash rule, closed by a bureaucrat using a 70%-80% threshold. Is that right? Is the view that the standard would be higher or lower than for an admin? Would Admins be eligible, or would they automatically qualify? Would sheriffs be given limited admin tools, to block accounts? If so, this job would seem like a "junior admin". That might be useful in increasing the dwindling ranks of the admin corps.
- There are few if any jobs on Wikipedia that are filled by single editors. Even mediators work often together. Is there a compelling reason for only having one sheriff at a time on an article?
- General probation often applies to an entire topic, "broadly defined". Because the Sheriff's role would be so strong yet narrowly defined, it seems like it'd be necessary to clearly define which articles are included rather than leaving it open-ended like with general probation. If it's later decided that more articles need sheriffing, would the sheriff on a related topic get the job automatically or would it be a fresh opening? Will Beback talk 22:38, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Ok, basic answers to these questions (keeping in mind that this is all subject to revision and approval by the community):
- Your first assessment is basically correct: the community comes to the conclusion (through some valid procedure, and with or without the approval of the editors involved in the dispute) that a page is problematic, and that a sheriff should be installed on the page. Someone from the sheriff's page agrees to take it on, and there is a brief (few days to a week) discussion of whether to accept the volunteer. at this point the only reason for rejecting a sheriff would be that the sheriff has a history of disputes on that article or topic, and even that would need to be fairly notable - sheriffs are so restricted that POV-pushing by the sheriff will almost certainly break sheriff's rules and get him removed. If there is agreement, the sheriff is installed; if not, a new volunteer is sought.
- Once a sheriff is installed, s/he stays on the page until removed, which can only happen if it becomes clear that s/he is breaking the limits of the office or applying his efforts unfairly (or, obviously, if it's decided a sheriff is no longer needed). Editors are encouraged to complain about the sheriff (that keeps the sheriff honest), but editors will be required to show clearly that a sheriff went outside the rules that govern sheriffs, or that a sheriff has a distinct pattern of unequal treatment in his/her sheriffing. If they can make a convincing case, the sheriff is toast, otherwise the complaint will be dismissed. Either way, the sheriff continues working without interruption until s/he is removed.
- The point of this is that it's middling easy to install a sheriff, very easy to remove a bad sheriff, and hard as hell to remove a good sheriff. That's on purpose: it both allows a sheriff to exercise his authority fully and coerces a sheriff into exercising his authority equally, neutrally, and cautiously.
- The RfS procedure (in my view) would be as follows: someone making a request must have a decent edit count (I'm thinking 5000-10000 edits minimum), must explicitly commit to the principles of sheriffing (sort of like taking an oath of office), and there should be a week for people to raise objections and concerns. Things like a history of sock-puppetry, significant vandalism, ArbCom sanctions or admonishments would all raise red flags about potential sheriffs, but other than that the approval process should be fairly pro-forma. Sheriffs are controlled by the restrictions on their abilities (just like real cops), and vetting them as people is not all that relevant outside of extreme cases. Admins would be eligible, but would need to keep their admin and sheriff jobs separate (where working as a sheriff, no use of broader admin powers; where working as an admin, no sheriffing).
- Sheriffs could block accounts but for no more than 24 hours. this block is primarily a speed bump thrown in the path of editors who are (at a given moment) way off the deep end. some people here have been suggesting that sheriffs could also lock an article for the same 24 hr period, but I'm of two minds about that. Those would be the only 'admin-type' tools that a sheriff would have, and they would be used in ways that admins currently are not allowed to use them. Further, sheriffs could block admins just like normal editors if the admin's behavior is bad enough and falls within the sheriffs purview. so no, sheriffs are not junior admins.
- The compelling reason for having a lone sheriff is accountability. Two sheriffs working together would have no great gains in fairness or efficiency, and would risk conflicts of opinion (sheriffs arguing with each other over the proper course of action would destroy the authority of both of them on the page), and risk unintentional errors (sheriff A does something without fully considering what sheriff B just did, the combined result of their actions is more harmful than helpful, and no one knows whether to blame A or B for the screw-up). One sheriff, one authority, one locus for blame: This translates to one sheriff who is very carefully watching his own a$$ as he works on the page. Sheriffs should be very conscious that all responsibility lands on their shoulders, because that is what will keep them honest.
- Your last point is substantially correct. a sheriff would be installed on a specific page where there's a problem. If it seems like the problem is spreading to other pages, then the sheriff or someone in the community can request that the sheriff's mandate be expanded to other pages (so long as they are narrowly defined). I don't think there would be an automatic decision about it: if the sheriff wants to tackle multiple pages, can handle the load, and the general consensus is that all the pages should be monitored by the same sheriff, that would be fine; if for any reason it seems like a good idea to install a new sheriff, that would be fine as well. I would assume that sheriffs working independently on related pages would communicate and cooperate with each other to any necessary extent, but since nothing a sheriff does escalates and the job is restricted to a limited range of activities, there shouldn't be all that much need for cooperation (aside, perhaps, from comparing notes about effective and ineffective approaches to particular editors).
- did I cover everything? --Ludwigs2 01:02, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- Whew - you covered more than everything!
- The appointment process isn't clear in the proposal. I hadn't realize that the self-nomination of a sheriff for a topic has to be ratified by a consensus (51% 66% 85% ?) of AN contributors. That means there's a discussion on making an editor into a sheriff, a discussion about the need for a sheriff on an article, followed by a discussion over which volunteer sheriff to appoint (either looking at one candidate after another until one is successful, or choosing the most popular among several simultaneous candidates). Then the community discusses the frequent complaints and if any of those discussions is successful then more discussion ensure regarding the replacement and the possible de-sheriffing of the fired sheriff. That seems like a lot of discussions at AN for each covered article.
- As you describe it the RFS is identical to the RFA. Am I missing an important difference?
- If sheriffs are given a special selection of one or more tools then it'd require a developer to code the new rights.
- It sounds like the idea is that Sheriffs should use their block tool freely and enforce civility rules aggressively, but if they overstep the bounds they can be fired and de-sheriffed easily. In practice that could tend to make sheriffs cautious rather than aggressive.
- It seems like some of this proposal is based on perceived failures of the Admins and ArbComs - perhaps those problems should be addressed directly rather than creating a new bureaucracy, one which may end up having the same failures. Will Beback talk 02:45, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- It would take a developer about 10 seconds to code the new rights, that's easy with mediawiki... probably just as easy for WP as with a single server, but I wouldn't know. We're still discussing how one becomes a Sheriff. I doubt the discussions would be burdensome. As to addressing any "perceived" failures of the other structures, have at it... you'll be the hero I would like to be, if I could think of a way to do it. I think just maybe that this is a way of fixing them. They may need the support of this further structure. For example, they need the local knowledge the Sheriff would develop. I've seen admins get driven off, and their specialized knowledge thus lost, but it would be hard to drive a Sheriff off if he obeyed his rules. And Sheriffs should be cautious, but are given sufficient tools that they can still be effective without getting in trouble. BE——Critical__Talk 03:18, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- Focusing just on the the RfS procedure, how would it be different from the much-maligned RfA process? Will Beback talk 03:42, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- It would take a developer about 10 seconds to code the new rights, that's easy with mediawiki... probably just as easy for WP as with a single server, but I wouldn't know. We're still discussing how one becomes a Sheriff. I doubt the discussions would be burdensome. As to addressing any "perceived" failures of the other structures, have at it... you'll be the hero I would like to be, if I could think of a way to do it. I think just maybe that this is a way of fixing them. They may need the support of this further structure. For example, they need the local knowledge the Sheriff would develop. I've seen admins get driven off, and their specialized knowledge thus lost, but it would be hard to drive a Sheriff off if he obeyed his rules. And Sheriffs should be cautious, but are given sufficient tools that they can still be effective without getting in trouble. BE——Critical__Talk 03:18, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- did I cover everything? --Ludwigs2 01:02, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
çThat's what we're trying to work out. Something streamlined but tight enough to catch those who would tend to abuse the role. Any suggestions? BE——Critical__Talk 03:51, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- Honestly, I'm not worried about any 'perceived failures'. for the most part I think admins do an admirable job, though there are places where they goof up or get tangled in their own nonsense (<...ahem...>). My real interest in this (if you must know) is in developing and rationalizing the community structure. Frankly, wikipedia has reached and passed the size where it can continue to function as a semi-organized, loosely-structured, rule-of-thumb-oriented association of peers. If the project wants to mature, it has to lay down a solid, consistent set of standards about behavior, and some means of enforcing them (the way any community anywhere eventually must do). The sheriff system does both, in one neat philosophically-beautiful package.
- The RfS procedure would be different then AfD because it's not an approval process. Editors who meet the basic edit count requirement can count on being approved unless someone can give a clear and reasonable reason to reject them. no 70% thing, no silly 'me too's... I'm sure that some people will take the opportunity to vent their frustrations about various editors, but unless those frustrations come with a clear set of diffs showing some severe breach of wikipedia policy it shouldn't make a difference. frankly, I personally would even discard the discussion period and just leave it that anyone who's edited long enough and wants to sheriff should be allowed to, but people seem to feel more comfortable with some kind of discussion procedure attached.
- The appointment process isn't a vote, it's a consensus discussion. The way I see it, volunteers will only be rejected if there's some clear history - they'd had fights on the page before, they've had fights with one or more of the current participants, they've previously expressed strong views about the topic... It shouldn't be an "I don't like that person" sort of thing. And don't worry about multiple discussions, for two reasons:
- There's not that much to discuss:
- once you've become a sheriff, you're a sheriff until you quit or lose your badge (that discussion only happens once)
- choosing a sheriff only happens once (unless the sheriff screws up) and that shouldn't be a complex conversation - just a question of whether the sheriff has an obvious conflict
- Most complaints about sheriffs require no discussion whatsoever. for example, say an editor posts the comment "That was a really stupid thing to say", and a sheriff redacts it as uncivil. Well, that comment clearly adds nothing to any content discussion, and is clearly uncivil, so it is clearly within the purview of the sheriff to redact it: hence no automatic problem for the sheriff. So how far will that editor get with sysops trying to argue that a comment like that needs to be restored? Anyone who tries to make an extended argument that s/he has a right to call other editors' posts 'stupid' is probably just digging his or her own grave. In most cases (in my estimation) you'll have a two or three day period where editors try to make silly arguments like that before they start to recognize that the discussion rules have changed on the page, and after that they'll stop doing the problematic behavior and stop complaining about the sheriff.
- Compared to the normal process of a page that's in trouble - extended bitch-fests on the talk page, multiple noticeboard battles, multiple extended ANI kerfluffles - the handful of discussions related to sheriffing would be a drop in the bucket. As I've said elsewhere, I fully expect a sheriff to cut the volume of text produced on a troubled page by a factor of 100, because most of the posts on pages like that are heated comments that have no business being there. will it be totally without hitches? no. will it be anything close to the rage-fests you saw on pages like Climate Change and R&I? hardly.
- There's not that much to discuss:
- The appointment process isn't a vote, it's a consensus discussion. The way I see it, volunteers will only be rejected if there's some clear history - they'd had fights on the page before, they've had fights with one or more of the current participants, they've previously expressed strong views about the topic... It shouldn't be an "I don't like that person" sort of thing. And don't worry about multiple discussions, for two reasons:
- Last point: I don't think sheriffs want to use their powers aggressively; I kind of picture sheriffs being circumspect about things - minimal action needed to achieve desired result (which is civility and peace on the page). You can do an awful lot without blocking anyone so long as people are aware that you can block them. Honestly, the only real reason sheriffs need the power to block is that (inevitably) someone is going to challenge the sheriff's authority and engage in problematic behavior despite being warned. Those editors will get blocked once, maybe twice - as often as needed for them to realize that the blocks will stick - and then they will re-evaluate their behavior on the page. That's the goal, to trigger that re-evaluation of behavior. As I said, sheriffs are there to change the page dynamic, not to sanction people, and the power to block is just a lever to make that change happen. --Ludwigs2 06:12, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
Interaction with other DR
- Would the sheriff decide whether there should be a posting to a noticeboard or whether that would be forum shopping?
-
- Would the sheriff police the NB discussion?
- Or would the NB have its own sheriff?
- Or would the sheriff simply ban existing disputants from posting to the NB and instead post on their behalf, deciding in that case what would be appropriate?
- If the NB reached a decision, would the sheriff enforce it, even against a local majority?
Peter jackson (talk) 11:30, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Very good questions.
- No, I don't think a Sheriff would control actions taken outside the context of the page they're working on. But an admin might.
- The Sheriff might post an opinion on a noticeboard, but would not police it. Noticeboards don't need Sheriffs, so far as I know.
- The Sheriff would not ban people from noticeboards, but an admin might take action.
- In the situation where, for example, you had a consensus at RS/N agree that X is not an RS, and 5 to 2 at the page who thought X was an RS, I think you might be able to declare a community consensus. So, maybe, in a very clearcut case. Do you think that would be a problem? BE——Critical__Talk 17:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sheriffs might suggest that a discussion be taken to a noticeboard, but sheriffs don't police areas where they haven't been assigned, and they don't enforce results, ever. The point of a sheriff is to make sure that consensus discussions are civil and reasonable, on the assumption that civil, reasonable discussions can usually produce results on their own. --Ludwigs2 19:08, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
View by User:Arthur Rubin
I don't see any way this could work. However, at a minimum, if consensus if found that a "sheriff" has "exceeded his authority", he must not be allowed to be a sheriff for at least 12 months, and probably should be banned from other positions of "authority", such as mediator. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:14, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Can't really answer this without reasons behind it. BE——Critical__Talk 17:12, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- it's likely that a sheriff who exceeds his authority far enough to be sanctioned will lose his sheriff status entirely and permanently. There is (obviously) going to be a range of mild mistakes that call for correction rather than sanction.
- as to you're not seeing any way this could work: understandable, I suppose. I think the first thing I need to Do when I propose this is to get the community to temporarily grant me block power (for demonstration purposes) and point me at a page so that I can give a demonstration of how it works and what the controls on it are. (and yes, before you complain, the block power would be strictly limited to participants on that page, and to the 24 hour limit, and I would expect any sysop to immediately undo any action I took that stepped even a micron outside those boundaries - let's save the excess drama for if-and-when I decide to post an RfA). --Ludwigs2 19:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- <redacted>. Not going to happen.
- Even if this were to be a tested proposal, it's inappropriate for the proposer to be a sheriff. You know what you want the sheriff to do; but if there's disagreement, we would need to have clear specifications. Regardless of whether you were acting within the guidelines in a previous dispute (which shall not be named) we've been involved in, it's clear that there was significant misunderstandings on someone's part, and ArbCom findings of fact found that your interpretation of your "powers" was incorrect. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:42, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- well, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying (you seem to be running three different conversational threads here), but all I can really say to you is "we'll see". I suspect that the bulk of the community would not be averse to seeing a demonstration in practice from the proposer. As to your last statement: I don't know what the heck you are talking about. please don't mix your apples and oranges with my pears, not unless we're going to be making a delicious smoothy. --Ludwigs2 23:59, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Suggestions
I just want to express my admiration for this idea and would like to make a couple of suggestions and comments:
- Has expanding the powers to include 24-hour (or perhaps even 48-hour) full and semi page protection been considered? In my work at the Third Opinion Project I've noticed that while these kinds of problems are frequently unilateral they are equally often bilateral. A short page protection to either let everyone cool off or to make sure everyone knows that someone is watching and isn't kidding about possible sanctions often works to fix, or at least cool down, the problem. While the same thing can be done, of course, by just sheriff-blocking everyone involved, PP has the advantage of not putting a blot on the combatants' block log records.
- In light of the excruciating, volunteer-daunting manner in which sysops are already being approved, I have some deep reservations about the idea that, "The process for approving a Sheriff is the same as that for becoming a full administrator." Why would someone want to go through that gauntlet to just become a Sheriff if they can become a fully-empowered sysop through the same process? Just off the top of my head, I can think of a couple of ways that this might be avoided by trusting the authority of existing sysops:
- First, instead of having a separate class of specially-empowered Sheriff's, instead provide that Sheriffs are merely a subclass of administrators who have indicated that they are willing to take on this kind of role, but also provide that sysops acting as Sheriffs in a case must appoint a non-sysop as a Deputy. The Deputy would take on the day-to-day monitoring of the page, and would have and exercise all the powers, privileges, and authority currently listed for a Sheriff in the proposal, except for the implementation of blocks (and, if my last suggestion is adopted, for page protection). The Deputy would apply to the Sheriff for blocks/protection, but the Sheriff would have the right to implement a Deputy's requested blocks or protection without checking to see if they are or are not justified. Deputies would be selected by the Sheriff on his or her own individual discretion with the only criteria being that the Deputy must be an experienced editor who is neutral and uninvolved with the article and subject of dispute in question and that the Deputy must be a person with whom the Sheriff was already familiar. The Sheriff would be authorized to replace a Deputy in a dispute at any time without having to state or justify a reason for doing so. The Sheriff would not, in general, be responsible for the actions of his or her Deputy or for following the Deputy's requests for blocks/page protection unless and until the Sheriff has received valid complaints about the Deputy's actions and has failed to investigate or address them (note "valid"). In short, Deputies would be neutral experienced users already familiar to the Sheriff and the Sheriff would, on a day to day basis, frankly be a kind of meatpuppet for the Deputy, who would only need to examine what the Deputy is doing when there are complaints. By requiring Deputies and insulating Sheriffs from the need to monitor their Deputies' actions on a day to day basis, the pool of potential participants in this project would be considerably expanded without the need to do RFA's on every non-sysop who might want to participate.
- As an alternative not using Deputies, allow Sheriffs to be appointed in an abbreviated appointment process on the recommendation of any "n" - say three, for example - administrators, perhaps subject to being blackballed on the recommendation of any n minus x - say two - administrators.
- There should be a rule which specifically says that a Sheriff (or in my first recommendation, a Deputy) is only authorized to exercise or to attempt or claim to exercise his or her authority in the "territory" in which he is appointed (that is, on the specific article page and talk page at which the dispute is occurring and on the talk pages of the disputants, and nowhere else) and that a Sheriff who acts outside his territory without first obtaining authority to do so from the appointing site (ordinarily, AN) will be automatically de-Sheriffed (or de-Deputied) without further discussion or appeal. The "Off-duty status" section implies this, of course, but it probably ought to be clearly stated. This specific statement would be particularly important to prevent this from becoming a way to appoint generally-empowered trial or probationary sysops if my suggestion to allow existing sysops to appoint Sheriffs were to be adopted.
Best regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 17:48, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Excellent ideas. Page protection: definitely. Streamlined process for becoming a Sheriff: yes, I agree with you now, it should be greatly streamlined. I think it's too cumbersome to have the Sysop/Deputy thing, but I think it's an alternative if we can't get agreement to give the Sheriff the powers. Agree about limiting Sheriff powers to the article they're monitoring, and participant talk pages. I'll modify the project page later if you don't do it yourself. BE——Critical__Talk 18:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- When I made my suggestions above, I had missed the theme in the proposal which suggests that a Sheriff can self-appoint himself to an article and had just presumed that appointment to a page must be required. Allowing self-appointment is a really bad idea, in my opinion. Unless Sheriffs are going to be sysops or be approved through the current sysop process, then this proposal becomes a means by which to appoint "junior sysops" or probationary sysops or something like that. Such proposals have been made many times through the years and have always been soundly rejected (see, for example, this recent discussion). By limiting the Sheriff to a particular article plus disputants' talk pages we would eliminate much of the need for them to be a fully-fledged sysop.
- Considering that the community has constantly rejected giving any users a limited set of sysop powers in the probationary or junior sysop context, I have some grave concern that this proposal is not going to survive and mature into policy for that reason. While the delegated-powers (Deputy) idea is, admittedly, a bit cumbersome, it would eliminate the need for the page monitor (whatever called: Sheriff or Deputy) to have any sysop powers at all, but only having authority backed by policy and the threat of virtually-automatic enforcement by someone who is a sysop; I'd like to see the idea reserved as a backup in case the empowered-Sheriff idea is rejected for the reasons discussed above.
- Here's my question: Before spending a lot more time and effort on this in its current empowered-Sheriff form, should a notice about the idea be posted at the RFA talk page and/or at other policy discussion points? If it's going to be shot down for the reasons I discussed above, then it would be better to have that lesson learned sooner than later. Before taking it there, however, if the quick-and-easy-appointment idea is going to be used, it needs to be fleshed out. How would you see it working? Regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 19:07, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Good ideas. My sense is that you're right that we need to remove the 'self-appointing' thing (even under the restriction that permission is asked at AN first). I don't think it's a bad idea, mind you, but I think it's too paranoia-inducing right now; the concept will need to be established in its simpler form first, and then we can discuss expanding it if it works.
- Excellent ideas. Page protection: definitely. Streamlined process for becoming a Sheriff: yes, I agree with you now, it should be greatly streamlined. I think it's too cumbersome to have the Sysop/Deputy thing, but I think it's an alternative if we can't get agreement to give the Sheriff the powers. Agree about limiting Sheriff powers to the article they're monitoring, and participant talk pages. I'll modify the project page later if you don't do it yourself. BE——Critical__Talk 18:19, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- I dislike the 'subset of admins' idea for the following reasons: part of the goal here is to separate sysops from policing functions, except in extreme cases. having sysops do policing functions has the same problems as blending police and judiciary functions in the real world: you end up with 'Judge Dread' scenarios where a sysop ends up as judge, jury, and executioner. setting up a class of people with limited powers to handle the policing function, with sysops overseeing and acting as the final judges, is much more stable and much less prone to both drama and errors of judgement. Further, having a separate police class improves legitimacy: minor problems are handled by sheriffs in a tightly regulated manor, and sheriffs defuse a lot of the friction that goes with such minor problems simply by being limited, regulated functionaries. Then when major problems occur, sysops can intervene without a history of minor frictions, making their actions look more legitimate as well. Plus, sysops can focus on more important tasks than minor talk-page peccadilloes, which is a better allocation of their greater powers.
- As far as the trouble of selling it, that's a given. as I mentioned above it probably needs a trial case to show everyone how it works. I can argue the rationale behind it very effectively, mind you, but there's nothing like 'show me' to prove a point. --Ludwigs2 19:35, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- P.s. Forgot to mention: my way of seeing sheriff power granted is that if the following are true: (i) an editor has a good number of edits (say 10000), (ii) an editor is willing explicitly to commit him/herself to the sheriffing rules, and (iii) no one offers a credible reason for denying sheriffhood in a reasonable time frame (say a week, where credible reasons would be major wikipedia offenses like sock puppetry, significant vandalism, or a history of arbcom admonitions or sanctions), then a sheriff should be approved. The system is designed to make bad sheriffs easily removable and to severely limit the damage they can do, so the acceptance process can be much more lenient than RfA. --Ludwigs2 19:43, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean by the "'subset of admins' idea", Ludwigs. I raised that idea in the context of the means by which Sheriffs would be approved (i.e. qualified), but I'm confused whether or not you are saying that you still hold that they should be appointed in the same way as sysops. Are you saying that you see Sheriffs not as "junior sysops" but as "super sysops" and for that reason they need to qualify both under the regular criteria for sysops and under those that you set out above in your PS? If that's the case, then I think that we'll see even fewer candidates for this role than we see for regular adminship. Regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 20:40, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think maybe I got confused over what you said. I think that sheriffs should be a class separate from sysops, one that has a significantly lower bar for approval, significantly more constrained areas of operation, but (within their particular bailiwick), some rights and powers that sysops currently lack. They wold be subordinate to sysops in the sense that sysops would have the final say if problems arise, but they would not be 'junior sysops'. They would have a narrowly defined mandate in which they are authoritative, and no power whatsoever outside of that. So, for instance, a sheriff should be able to give a sysop a 24 hour block should the need arise, so long as the sysop's behavior falls clearly within the sheriff's mandate, but otherwise sheriffs are just normal editors. does that answer what you're asking? --Ludwigs2 22:14, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what you mean by the "'subset of admins' idea", Ludwigs. I raised that idea in the context of the means by which Sheriffs would be approved (i.e. qualified), but I'm confused whether or not you are saying that you still hold that they should be appointed in the same way as sysops. Are you saying that you see Sheriffs not as "junior sysops" but as "super sysops" and for that reason they need to qualify both under the regular criteria for sysops and under those that you set out above in your PS? If that's the case, then I think that we'll see even fewer candidates for this role than we see for regular adminship. Regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 20:40, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- P.s. Forgot to mention: my way of seeing sheriff power granted is that if the following are true: (i) an editor has a good number of edits (say 10000), (ii) an editor is willing explicitly to commit him/herself to the sheriffing rules, and (iii) no one offers a credible reason for denying sheriffhood in a reasonable time frame (say a week, where credible reasons would be major wikipedia offenses like sock puppetry, significant vandalism, or a history of arbcom admonitions or sanctions), then a sheriff should be approved. The system is designed to make bad sheriffs easily removable and to severely limit the damage they can do, so the acceptance process can be much more lenient than RfA. --Ludwigs2 19:43, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it does, and I think that we're in substantial agreement about what's needed. Regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 22:55, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Determination of consensus
I've reverted Becritical's addition of a determination of consensus subsection. I appreciate his effort to try to put limits on it so that it is only enabled when consensus is very clear, but (in keeping with the analogy and notion of creating a police force) police officers only interpret the law to the extent needed to enforce it. In this context, I think that means that their power to determine consensus should be limited only to those situations in which it is needed to determine their ability to enforce one of the concerns listed in the bullet points in the "The basic theory" section and should further be limited to those situations in which consensus is so clear that to argue that it is not clear is unquestionably tendentious. The ability to determine consensus should not be a separately-listed power, which elevates it to the same level of discretion as the other powers and allows the Sheriff to become an arbitrator of content, but should be an "included power" or "sub-power". Best regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 21:11, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Sounds good. BE——Critical__Talk 22:13, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
Level of consensus needed to appoint
Does anyone else feel that the marked–out words in the following quote from the "Appointment to a page" subsection are too limiting?
Various procedures for doing so may occur, but in general the procedure should be on the level of an
extendeddiscussion at the administrator's noticeboard or a policy-level request for comment. There should be sufficient consensus evident to be certain that the communityas a wholeis fed up with the behavior of editors at the page or topic in question and that other avenues of resolving the conflict are ineffective.
The process is sufficiently useful that it seems to me that even short or bare consensus for Sheriffing at ANI or in a policy RFP ought to be enough. By including the marked-out restrictions, we would just give the combatants fuel to shift the argument from its current venue to the Sheriffing proposal and/or to then argue about whether the appointment of a Sheriff was valid because the discussion was insufficiently extensive or involved too few editors to represent the community as a whole. Best regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 22:13, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- Agreed. BE——Critical__Talk 22:15, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- There's room for discussion on this point (I intentionally wrote it in the most limiting form possible), but please be aware that the central concern here is legitimacy. For a sheriff to be effective, s/he needs to work in such a way that his actions can be viewed as an outgrowth of the broad desires of the community. That (along with fair and equal application) is what should make the sheriff's authority credible and legitimate. The more limited the consensus for appointing a sheriff, the greater the potential for legitimacy issues. Personally I agree with removing the marked out words and making the process of appointment looser, I just want to make sure it doesn't get so loose that sheriffs are getting appointed by (say) some dive-by sysop. that being said, have at it. --Ludwigs2 22:29, 7 February 2011 (UTC)
- If I understand correctly, the appointment process is sequential. If the first volunteer sheriff fails to get a consensus (51%? 99%?) then that application is eventually rejected and the next sheriff gets to submit their editing history to scrutiny. That discussion can take another few days or a week. If it fails to achieve consensus then a third applicant is necessary. Is that right? Will Beback talk 03:48, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
- There's room for discussion on this point (I intentionally wrote it in the most limiting form possible), but please be aware that the central concern here is legitimacy. For a sheriff to be effective, s/he needs to work in such a way that his actions can be viewed as an outgrowth of the broad desires of the community. That (along with fair and equal application) is what should make the sheriff's authority credible and legitimate. The more limited the consensus for appointing a sheriff, the greater the potential for legitimacy issues. Personally I agree with removing the marked out words and making the process of appointment looser, I just want to make sure it doesn't get so loose that sheriffs are getting appointed by (say) some dive-by sysop. that being said, have at it. --Ludwigs2 22:29, 7 February 2011 (UTC)