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:: I think this is pretty balanced. A reminder about [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:AGF]] and [[WP:CIVIL]] couldn't hurt either. [[User:Randomran|Randomran]] ([[User talk:Randomran|talk]]) 18:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC) |
:: I think this is pretty balanced. A reminder about [[WP:NPA]] and [[WP:AGF]] and [[WP:CIVIL]] couldn't hurt either. [[User:Randomran|Randomran]] ([[User talk:Randomran|talk]]) 18:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC) |
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:::I can agree with that. I really do not think it should be that hard for proponents on both sides of this issue to compromise. I would say Magioladitis and I are probably on opposing ends of the inclusion spectrum and yet see [[User_talk:A_Nobody/Archive_3#Clarification]]. If we can work together, so can others! :) Best, --[[User:A Nobody|A Nobody]]<sup>''[[User talk:A Nobody|My talk]]''</sup> 19:07, 31 December 2008 (UTC) |
:::I can agree with that. I really do not think it should be that hard for proponents on both sides of this issue to compromise. I would say Magioladitis and I are probably on opposing ends of the inclusion spectrum and yet see [[User_talk:A_Nobody/Archive_3#Clarification]]. If we can work together, so can others! :) Best, --[[User:A Nobody|A Nobody]]<sup>''[[User talk:A Nobody|My talk]]''</sup> 19:07, 31 December 2008 (UTC) |
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== Incivility accusations == |
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I'm noting a number of incivility accusations being made, and believe that they are a bit misguided. Pixelface's behaviour has invited comment, and some of that comment is going to be in the form of sarcasm. Was a comment like [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Sgeureka&diff=258056447&oldid=258055629 mine] particularly nice to Pixelface? No, it wasn't. Would it be reasonable to start templating civility warnings on my talk page because of it? No, it wouldn't. I'm quite certain that Pixelface's diatribe did far more to help Sgeureka's candidacy than hurt it, and it isn't a crime to acknowledge that.—[[User:Kww|Kww]]([[User talk:Kww|talk]]) 23:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 23:34, 31 December 2008
Comment on Gavin Collins viewpoint
It should be noted that the only reason this RFC/U was started was that the last two times Pixelface's 3RR-like behavior was reported to ANI (including the ones on Dec 30) it was strongly suggested to RFC/U the case since there was no admin action that could be immediately taken on that alone. --MASEM 13:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think he's right about the Desired Outcome being too vague, though. Black Kite 13:14, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Since this RfC/U was indeed started only after PF initiated a one-sided edit-war on WP:NOT for the umpteenth time, and because the other four points are only collateral concerns, I'd agree to just focus on stopping PF from directly editing WP:NOT as the desired outcome, with no restrictions for policy&guideline talkpages. PF's other behavior, even if considered annoying by some editors, already falls under arbcom's E&C 2 admonition to "work collaboratively and constructively with the broader community". – sgeureka t•c 13:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I wouldn't necessary limit it to WP:NOT, since PF's done the same on other pages (WP:WAF). However, if it is truly the case that the other points are covered by the E&C2 case, then this suggests we should be opening a arbcom incident case on PF. Personally, I don't think it goes that far, but the behavior of the other four point is poisonous to discussion and a WQA did not correct it. (Figuring out how all this goes together may be part of putting together a resolution, so while I agree its vague, I wrote it that way on purpose to prevent biasing a result that I may desire but not merited by the facts as presented.) --MASEM 13:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- (e/c) What Masem said (Wikipedia:Plot and WP:WAF are the two examples that spring to mind.) Black Kite 13:52, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Seeing that some editors take issue with the perceived bad faith regarding PF's intentions and future behavior, my thinking was that if PF was restricted from solely editing WP:NOT but would then move to edit-war on other P&G pages (as it seems, but I can't prove it yet), it would become apparent that (1) bad faith was justified and (2) it would be easier to restrict PF from editing the other P&G page in the future if necessary, citing the precedent of this RfC/U. Rome wasn't built in a day, and I'd (now) consider it enough progress to restrict the undeniable worst instead of losing ourselves in inactionable details and accomplishing nothing at all. – sgeureka t•c 14:14, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Just 2¢ from the sidelines, but... It seems that limiting the restrictions/sanctions to WP:NOT would be more of a corrective action. It would give PF a chance to rethink their style of arguing their POV on the issue but still allow them to contribute to related P&G topics.
If the full blown pattern moves to other P&G topics, then the restrictions/sanctions can be revisited and expanded. That is assuming that there isn't enough evidence to support the contention that the pattern is already well established on other P&G pages. - J Greb (talk) 14:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC) - If editors feel that he is edit warring, then what provisions are there against those he would be edit warring with as it takes two to edit war. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 15:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- When it's one editor against an army, sanctions are normally applied only to the one editor. This is a classic case of one editor editing against consensus.—Kww(talk) 16:01, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- The same question/comment came up in E&C2 about TTN's edit-warring, and arbcom's imposed restriction on only TTN seems to have stopped the edit-warring. I expect that a similar restriction would also work for PF's edit-warring on WP:NOT. – sgeureka t•c 16:22, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I still wonder though, given the RfC on Gavin as well as the arbcom request on TTN, if we should simply move to an Episodes and characters 3 rather than all these separate threads? --A NobodyMy talk 16:27, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I'm unconvinced that would be useful, partly because not all these issues are directly related to E&C, and also because the previous example of C68-SV-FM etc. shows that trying to conflate different problems into one RFAR can be very messy (and extremely time-consuming). Black Kite 16:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- There might be another problem with this RfC, by the way. Does this seem like this? Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 16:46, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Anon IPs, even of former non-banned/blocked editors, are free to comment - there's no restriction on that. However, if the former user is blocked and evading that, that's a completely different issue. --MASEM 16:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- The suspected former user is currently indeffed for block evasion. See here. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 16:53, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Then that should be taken to the proper channels (AN or ANI, I believe). If the anon IP is that user, we'll disregard the input. --MASEM 17:02, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- No need, it's fairly obvious and I have removed all the IPs comments. It is clearly unhelpful to have them here. Thanks for pointing it out, A Nobody. Black Kite 17:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that, given how close a new FICT is to being set as well as other more recent work towards consensus from several sides of the issue that an E&C3 case would be both premature and looked unfavorable by ArbCom. --MASEM 16:51, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- If it were two editors edit-warring, then I would agree with you. Even a quick perusal of the policy pages that PF has edited recently, and only going back in the history a few pages, sees ten different editors reverting Pixel's edits - Masem, Bignole, Future Perfect At Sunrise, Cameron Scott, Jack Merridew, Collectionian, Sceptre, Ckatz, Randomran and myself - and seven of those only once each. Black Kite 16:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Are there any instances of any inclusionists reverting him? Also, part of what concerns me here is that if there is edit warring going on, then I wouldn't excuse that and as I said in my comment on the main Rfc page for him that I did once ask him to strike a word he used, but in terms of degree I think what's being alleged against him is far less serious than what is being alleged against someone else at arbcom, i.e. edit warring on a policy page is low in the list of things that would concern me than say mass nominating literally hundreds of articles for deletion seemingly indiscriminately. I don't see how that can be regarded as okay if this is not. Neither edit warring nor tendentious deletion nomination should be acceptable. We should not be partisan in this as I believe Randomran hints at above. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:02, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I agree - the edit warring, though disruptive, is more irritating than anything else. I don't think anyone is asking for serious sanctions such as blocking or banning, they just want him to cease that particular disruptive behaviour. Black Kite 17:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe he would be amenable to an RfC on Plot and agree to go along with whatever outcome it has? It might not hurt to try that and maybe we could get broader community input that way too? Best, --A NobodyMy talk 17:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- There was one, started by PF in April 08. --MASEM 17:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Is there anywhere where there is an outcome to it, though, in glancing through that link, I didn't see (maybe simply overlooked) a "Conclusion" of sorts. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 17:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Obviously there isn't a summary or conclusion to it, but I think at the time that the clear consensus favored keeping PLOT though suggesting alternate wordings to address some issues, that no one proceeded to seek a conclusion (nor are RFCs required to, though it is good form). However, the important part is that several non-common editors to WT:NOT provided their input to gaint he wider consensus. --MASEM 17:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- What we really need is a community wide discussion as the handful of editors who comment in those sorts of threads seems disconnected from the much larger number of editors who create and work on the sorts of articles in good faith and the millions who come here reading it (for what it is worth, I think articles should not be entirely in universe and support adding reception and creation sections to character and episode articles, but I support actually doing that not just deleting the articles when they can be expanded and revised). But as regards Pixelface, I think some editors only make things worse by mocking him a la this unconstructive and rather incivil edit. One might support and say he is unconvinced by Pixelface's oppose, but to have a support per someone's oppose is just not right. Imagine if inclusionists started having "Keep per TTN" as a rationale. What would that add? We need to keep a mind into not just how Pixelface edits, but how others treat him and if others deserve some blame for why he does what he does or for escalating rather than deescalating. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Part of what Pixelface gets in terms of mocking towards them (which I agree occurs from certain editors) is a result of how PF edits (as per the RFC/U), though without looking through PF's history, it's a chicken-egg problem of which mocking editor came first. Still, sometimes the best policy is to turn the other cheek, though if there are editors consistently harrassing PF, they should be dealt with the same warnings/restrictions (if any are placed) on PF. --MASEM 17:49, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree, no one on any side of these issues should be harassing anyone or making mocking comments. We should not tolerate it period. Mature editors should not allow themselves to be baited and should not feed into unconstructive edits with unconstructive edits of their own. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 17:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- (Ec) As much as I see where you're coming from, we're getting increasingly off-track. Feel free to start a new thread at WP:NOT, but let's keep this RfC/U first and foremost about Pixelface's edit behaviour please. – sgeureka t•c 17:50, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- That's the thing, those he is allegedly edit-warring with are engaging in incivil behavior with him as seen here, i.e. it's a two sided matter and thus others' behavior toward him is problematic as well and needs to be addressed. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 17:57, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you (as a supporter of PF's view on fiction) agree with PF's "non"-supporters that PF is the source of edit-wars, and that edit-warring is problematic under any circumstances, then we have a common ground of agreement and can work towards finding a solution where incivility and views on fiction no longer matter. – sgeureka t•c 18:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think that neither Pixelface nor the editors cited by me above should be incivil or engage in edit warring; that multiple editors are cited above could suggest some sort of bullying of Pixelface or putting him in a corner as well, however. As I commented to him and to someone else in your RfA, I do not tolerate incivility from anyone, even those who share the same inclusion ideas as me. Even though I opposed your RfA, I wound up refuting others who opposed you (got to love the irony), but I think that's important, i.e. that we don't just tow the partisan line. We can disagree, sure, but not to the point of insults. We all have to stop at certain points and I urge Pixelface to not edit war if he is, but I also urge others to engage with him constructively. We have to take both sides into account. No one, whether inclusionist or deletionist, should be edit warring. No one, whether inclusionist or deletionist, should be engaging in personal attacks. For what it's worth, when I asked him to strike an unhelpful word he used against you, he did so. Maybe all we need is for civil requests to be made toward each other? Best, --A NobodyMy talk 18:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Just 2¢ from the sidelines, but... It seems that limiting the restrictions/sanctions to WP:NOT would be more of a corrective action. It would give PF a chance to rethink their style of arguing their POV on the issue but still allow them to contribute to related P&G topics.
I definitely share Gavin's concern, because it was something I saw when a lot of people were engaging in his RFC/U. e.g.: it's one thing to punish someone for their behavior, but it's something else to punish them for their viewpoint. Being a stubborn negotiator may make you look like a dummy, but it's someone's right to negotiate that way if they want to. For that exact reason, I'm not crazy about this comment. And I think it would be a good idea for Masem or one of the other initial submitters to remove the paragraph about discussion style. Yeah, I'm not a fan of long posts either. But it really just takes this RFC/U off topic. Randomran (talk) 19:02, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
First proposed remedy
Given that discussion on the page and here clearly shows that PF's editwarring and PF's discussion methods are two different issues, I propose the following remedy for the first aspect, effectively placing Pixelface on a 1 Revert Rule for the key pages
- For a period of a year, Pixelface is warned of edit warring on WP:NOT(1). Pixelface is free to make any edits to the page, but if these edits are reverted within 7 days, Pixelface may not re-revert the changes as per WP:BRD without seeking further consensus on the talk page, save in cases of obvious vandalism or editing correction(2). If Pixelface's suggested changes do not gain consensus, Pixelface may not attempt the same or a very similar change for a period of at least three months, after which consensus may have changed(3). All editors are cautioned that edit-warring on policy or guideline pages is inappropriate and may lead to administrative action.(4)
- (1) I don't know if we should limit it to only WP:NOT or include WP:NOTE, WP:WAF, and others; NOT is the key one of recent behavior.
- (2) This prevents someone from gaming Pixelface if they add something that is accepted on the p/g pages but revert that change much later, and Pixel attempts to revert. And obviously fighting vandalism is a good thing.
- (3) PF must be allowed to attempt to seek more clarification given WP:CCC after a period of time - we just don't need a new discussion every 2 weeks or every month.
- (4) While I feel this is a one-way street in that PF is editwarring against consensus, it should be noted per others concerns that no editor should be edit warring policy and guideline pages.
Of course, this may be too wordy and likely can be cleaned up, but as a starting point, I think this addresses most of the concerns. --MASEM 18:01, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I might support a softer restriction, but I think we need to look at a wider range of policy pages. Pixelface should be free to make any edits to policy pages, but for the next few months he must propose them for discussion and get consensus for his viewpoint *before* making the edit. He is still entitled to revert other peoples' *recent* edits, but he's not allowed to game the system by making a change under the guise of a "revert" across several months or years. I'd apply this restriction to all guidelines and policies, because it's obvious that his edit warring has spilled out onto redirects, WP:OCAT, and so on. Not just WP:NOT/WP:NOTE/WP:WAF. We need to show that it's unacceptable everywhere. Randomran (talk) 18:12, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Suggestion: "For a period of a year, Pixelface may not make any changes to policy or guideline pages (excepting vandalism reverts, grammar fixes and other uncontroversial edits) without proposing those changes on the relevant talkpage at least 7 days in advance, in order to gauge the level of consensus for those changes. If Pixelface's suggested changes do not gain consensus, Pixelface may not suggest the same or a very similar change for a period of at least three months, after which consensus may have changed. All editors are cautioned that edit-warring on policy or guideline pages is inappropriate and may lead to administrative action."
- Black Kite 18:21, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think that's fair, but we don't want to disarm Pixelface completely: he should be allowed to patrol for bad edits to policies/guidelines and thus be allowed to revert *recent* changes (so long as he doesn't edit war). Randomran (talk) 18:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- How about NO editor may make unilateral changes to policy or guideline pages? Really, when it comes to policies and guidelines, pretty much any non-vandalism reverting edit should have consensus behind it. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 18:26, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- No other editor has been edit warring. For all of them, the normal WP:BRD process is working. We shouldn't take away peoples' bold editing privileges (and it is a privilege) for the actions of one editor. Randomran (talk) 18:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- It seems others are being reverted as well when they try to make unilateral changes (see for example [1]) and that Pixelface is actually NOT the only one trying to remove Plot (see for example [2]). Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 18:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Which is exactly as it should be - unilateral changes without consensus should be reverted. However, at the moment Pixelface is the only one making such unilateral changes on a regular basis. Black Kite 18:40, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Of *course* people are editing WP:NOT. But to echo what Black Kite is saying, only Pixelface is WP:EDITWARRING. Can you show me anyone who has tried to push the exact same edit more than a dozen times, reverted by nearly a dozen different editors? Randomran (talk) 18:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that unilateral changes without consensus should be reverted, but from a quick glance I see that at least Colonel Warden has also removed Plot, which means it is not just Pixelface versus "everyone," as he does have at least one editor from a quick search who also removed Plot and discussed doing so on the talk page. Pixelface may be removing it more so than anyone else, but he is not the only one to be doing so, i.e. if there is a broader edit war on Plot, he not the only person on that side of the dispute. Some of what I have seen in this RfC makes it seem as if only Pixelface has removed Plot, but that is actually not true. It should be clear that it is not as Pixelface is all by himself in that opinion and effort. Plus, other edits such as this seem a bit discouraging, i.e. why wouldn't we want to let people know there is a discussion concerning that particular on the talk page? Other edit warring by other editors not including Pixelface includes [3] and [4], i.e. two reverts of two other editors by one editor. See also [5]. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 18:44, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Pushing the exact same edit twice isn't an edit war. Pushing the exact same edit more than a dozen times, a few times right up to the edge of WP:3RR, is an edit war. I agree we should hold everyone to the same standard, but Pixelface has breached that standard and beyond. There's a difference between Pixelface and others like DGG/Hiding/etc. They share the same viewpoint, but not the same behavior. Randomran (talk) 18:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I posted below some examples of people other than Pixelface being reverted for removing Plot. Maybe we should make a chart of list of diffs indicating who has done the most reverts concerning Plot? I think Pixelface would indeed probably be on top, but if we added the reverts of him by those listed below to their reverts of DGG, Colonel Warde, Hiding, and Hobit, I don't see how we could fairly say that those reverted the below editors as well as reverted Pixelface aren't in fact also engaging in edit war, i.e. there is a much more participant laden edit war going on for which Pixelface may indeed be doing the most reverting, but for which he is hardly to only participant. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 19:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- If you find anybody else who has engaged in edit warring, feel free to name a name. But I haven't seen anything from anybody on the level of Pixelface. Reverting two or three times is not an edit war. The problem is that Pixelface has come back with the same edit over several months, and has brushed right up against the WP:3RR in a couple of cases. See Wikipedia:3RR#Not_an_entitlement. Randomran (talk) 19:08, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I posted below some examples of people other than Pixelface being reverted for removing Plot. Maybe we should make a chart of list of diffs indicating who has done the most reverts concerning Plot? I think Pixelface would indeed probably be on top, but if we added the reverts of him by those listed below to their reverts of DGG, Colonel Warde, Hiding, and Hobit, I don't see how we could fairly say that those reverted the below editors as well as reverted Pixelface aren't in fact also engaging in edit war, i.e. there is a much more participant laden edit war going on for which Pixelface may indeed be doing the most reverting, but for which he is hardly to only participant. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 19:04, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Pushing the exact same edit twice isn't an edit war. Pushing the exact same edit more than a dozen times, a few times right up to the edge of WP:3RR, is an edit war. I agree we should hold everyone to the same standard, but Pixelface has breached that standard and beyond. There's a difference between Pixelface and others like DGG/Hiding/etc. They share the same viewpoint, but not the same behavior. Randomran (talk) 18:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree that unilateral changes without consensus should be reverted, but from a quick glance I see that at least Colonel Warden has also removed Plot, which means it is not just Pixelface versus "everyone," as he does have at least one editor from a quick search who also removed Plot and discussed doing so on the talk page. Pixelface may be removing it more so than anyone else, but he is not the only one to be doing so, i.e. if there is a broader edit war on Plot, he not the only person on that side of the dispute. Some of what I have seen in this RfC makes it seem as if only Pixelface has removed Plot, but that is actually not true. It should be clear that it is not as Pixelface is all by himself in that opinion and effort. Plus, other edits such as this seem a bit discouraging, i.e. why wouldn't we want to let people know there is a discussion concerning that particular on the talk page? Other edit warring by other editors not including Pixelface includes [3] and [4], i.e. two reverts of two other editors by one editor. See also [5]. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 18:44, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- It seems others are being reverted as well when they try to make unilateral changes (see for example [1]) and that Pixelface is actually NOT the only one trying to remove Plot (see for example [2]). Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 18:36, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- No other editor has been edit warring. For all of them, the normal WP:BRD process is working. We shouldn't take away peoples' bold editing privileges (and it is a privilege) for the actions of one editor. Randomran (talk) 18:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- How about NO editor may make unilateral changes to policy or guideline pages? Really, when it comes to policies and guidelines, pretty much any non-vandalism reverting edit should have consensus behind it. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 18:26, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think that's fair, but we don't want to disarm Pixelface completely: he should be allowed to patrol for bad edits to policies/guidelines and thus be allowed to revert *recent* changes (so long as he doesn't edit war). Randomran (talk) 18:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- How about "For a period of a year, Pixelface may not initiate any changes to policy or guideline pages without proposing those changes on the relevant talkpage at least 7 days in advance, in order to gauge the level of consensus for those changes. If Pixelface's suggested changes do not gain consensus, Pixelface may not suggest the same or a very similar change for a period of at least three months, after which consensus may have changed. All editors are cautioned that edit-warring on policy or guideline pages is inappropriate and may lead to administrative action. Note that this restriction does not prevent Pixelface from performing uncontroversial edits to such pages, or from reverting other editor's changes with a reasonable rationale as long as such changes do not constitute edit-warring. " Black Kite 18:30, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- And to be honest, no-one should really be changing policy pages without consensus, so this is hardly controversial. Black Kite 18:35, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds fair. One concern I have though is that it technically allows PF to start a one-month-one-policy-to-challenge crusade so that the same arguments still get rehashed all-around-the-clock by the same people. That's the fault of too many overlapping policies and guidelines though, not PF's. – sgeureka t•c 18:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- "Initiate" may be the wrong word, as in another case on WP:N, PF is attempting to revert a portion of a guideline to a previous version. Also, I still feel that the scope of what p/g this applies to is necessary; if, say, PF should come up with a guideline that is readily accepted that is outside the scope of fictional works, PF should not be prevented in tweaking it or the like. (Also, this begs the question, are p/g pages those explicitly marked as such, or include Wikiproject guidance pages, or what? Limiting the scope would prevent the need for trying to answer this question). --MASEM 18:45, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I again think it is wrong to make it only about Pixelface. Below are examples of editors who have reverted removal of Plot by editors other than Pixelface.
- (reply to Masem) - aye, it needs a little more tweaking yet. Will have a look tomorrow, off to a New Year's party now. Happy 2009 all. Black Kite 19:03, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Second proposed remedy
I have provided evidence that multiple editors have treated Pixelface in an incivil manner. Thus...
- Editors must not bait Pixelface, harass him, or escalate disputes by making incivil edits or personal attacks. Obvious personal attacks and unconstructive escalation should be dealt with by an immediate block as this remedy should be considered a warning and per the outcome of Episodes and characters 2 which noted that editors are expected to work colloboratively and not escalate things.
The above could probably be worded better, but we need to make sure we're not being one sided here. Best, --A NobodyMy talk 18:10, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Incivility goes both ways - however, both sides need to extend the olive branch here. Something on PF's own baiting behavior would need to be added to this. --MASEM 18:13, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- The sarcastic or harsh discussion style is a side issue. But it's a standard that should be applied towards everyone equally -- Masem is right that it applies to all sides. I don't think it's fair to block anyone for incivility without some kind of warning and lighter action first -- so we need to handle them on a case by case basis. But I think it's fair to amend the remedy for edit warring with a broader reminder to everyone to be civil, and that incivility will have (proportional) consequences. Randomran (talk) 18:16, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, how about:
- Editors involved in discussions concerning what Wikipedia is not must not bait each other, harass each other, gang up on and bully opponents, or escalate disputes by making incivil edits or personal attacks. Obvious personal attacks and unconstructive escalation should be dealt with by first a warning and then an immediate block as this remedy, which is likely to have been viewed all the major or regular participants in those discussions, should be considered a warning and also per the outcome of Episodes and characters 2 which noted that editors are expected to work colloboratively and not escalate things.
- Thoughts? I don't think it's a side issue, but rather partially an explanation of why Pixelface edits as he does. Sincerely, --A NobodyMy talk 18:24, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think we're making progress. But "gang up on" is kind of vague. Arguably, any time you're the minority viewpoint you're being "ganged up" on. And while I can understand why someone in a minority viewpoint would use edit warring to get their way, being in the minority is never an excuse for edit warring. I think you should just leave that part out, and focus on personal attacks and incivility. Randomran (talk) 18:28, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, how about:
How about simply,
- Per Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Episodes_and_characters_2#Parties_instructed_and_warned, "The parties are instructed to cease engaging in editorial conflict and to work collaboratively to develop a generally accepted and applicable approach to the articles in question. They are warned that the Committee will look very unfavorably on anyone attempting to further spread or inflame this dispute."
I know that fiction editors (from all sides) have had a hard time to follow this admonition in the past year, but it can't be repeated often enough, even if it's just as the occasional sanity check. – sgeureka t•c 18:48, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think this is pretty balanced. A reminder about WP:NPA and WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL couldn't hurt either. Randomran (talk) 18:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I can agree with that. I really do not think it should be that hard for proponents on both sides of this issue to compromise. I would say Magioladitis and I are probably on opposing ends of the inclusion spectrum and yet see User_talk:A_Nobody/Archive_3#Clarification. If we can work together, so can others! :) Best, --A NobodyMy talk 19:07, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
- I think this is pretty balanced. A reminder about WP:NPA and WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL couldn't hurt either. Randomran (talk) 18:56, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Incivility accusations
I'm noting a number of incivility accusations being made, and believe that they are a bit misguided. Pixelface's behaviour has invited comment, and some of that comment is going to be in the form of sarcasm. Was a comment like mine particularly nice to Pixelface? No, it wasn't. Would it be reasonable to start templating civility warnings on my talk page because of it? No, it wouldn't. I'm quite certain that Pixelface's diatribe did far more to help Sgeureka's candidacy than hurt it, and it isn't a crime to acknowledge that.—Kww(talk) 23:34, 31 December 2008 (UTC)