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I think there is a valid point here - when we have a perfectly viable alternative, no purpose is served by using his real name except to use this case as a venue to publish "contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source". I think that because of this, any clerk should replace all instances of "J*** B*****" with "WordBomb" in all pages related to this arbitration (and references to "G*** W****" should likely be obscured somehow too, to be fair) —[[User talk:Random832|Random832]] 20:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC) |
I think there is a valid point here - when we have a perfectly viable alternative, no purpose is served by using his real name except to use this case as a venue to publish "contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source". I think that because of this, any clerk should replace all instances of "J*** B*****" with "WordBomb" in all pages related to this arbitration (and references to "G*** W****" should likely be obscured somehow too, to be fair) —[[User talk:Random832|Random832]] 20:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC) |
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[[WP:COI]] sometimes requires discussion of real world identities. That is the case in ''this'' case. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] ([[User talk:WAS 4.250|talk]]) 23:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC) |
[[WP:COI]] sometimes requires discussion of real world identities. That is the case in ''this'' case. Further, confinement of that discussion to a select group means that that select group determines the content of the relevant articles. NPOV requires that content not be determined in back rooms, cabals, or private mailing lists. [[User:WAS 4.250|WAS 4.250]] ([[User talk:WAS 4.250|talk]]) 23:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC) |
Revision as of 23:54, 19 February 2008
Other statements
Statement by Rocksanddirt
While I had hoped that the Rfc and related commentary would go on a bit longer prior to this, it was always headed here. The conflict at the root of the issues is one of the defining items of the current en.wikipedia community. Even quite new editors such as myself have been exposed to the dhrahma of it out of proportion to the article disruption. As with Cool Hand Luke, I ask that the committee be slow on remedies, long on findings of fact. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 21:02, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- comment - I do not feel the Morven's statements require that he recuse from the case. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 22:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- comment - I do not feel that the participation of wordbomb would add to this proceeding, his behavior after his initial proper block requires that any proceding he's involved with be only about him. After the serious allegations against mantanmoreland are evaluated by the committee (as looks likely now) than a case involving others and others actions might have value. Until then, it is putting the cart before the horse. --Rocksanddirt (talk) 15:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by Dorftrottel
FWIW, I'd support a thorough investigation with particular emphasis on item C) of SirFozzie's initiating statement and CHL's suggestion to reserve remedies for the community, if applicable. User:Dorftrottel 21:10, February 13, 2008
- Also, I echo the calls for Morven as well as FloNight to recuse themselves from the case. User:Dorftrottel 01:33, February 14, 2008
- As to Jimbo's "not a smoking gun" comment regarding his earlier statement: Nevertheless, Jimbo Wales must have had good reasons which led him to making such a rather strong statement in the first place. I for one would appreciate further, detailed explanation by Jimbo what exactly those reasons were, and also who else can reasonably be assumed to have had those same reasons available to them at or around the time Jimbo made that statement. User:Dorftrottel 11:56, February 14, 2008
Statement by Whitstable
I would support a thorough investigation and I feel that unless we get as close to a definitive answer as possible on the Real Life issue, we are not going to resolve this dispute. I believe it is time to go deal with the cause - the person behind the accounts, if there is one - rather than the symptoms of any number of socks. Whitstable 21:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by Lawrence Cohen
Please accept the case. Massive disruption, spanning years, involving a user who was confirmed to be abusing various socks by the Arbitration Committee in the past, who has evidence against him here showing that he has gamed Wikipedia still with more socks since then, including on RFAR, and RFA, and who even Jimbo Wales per evidence on the RFC believes is the very subject of the BLP various editors have accused him of being. Taken in whole, Mantanmoreland appears based on currently available evidence to be Gary Weiss, and has gamed Wikipedia to absurd degrees. Scope of arbitration should involve investigation of those who enabled this to happen, up to and including Jimbo Wales if that is the case. Lawrence § t/e 21:29, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Response to Viridae: Support. Morven can't be an arbiter here. Lawrence § t/e 21:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC) Struck per Morven's response. Sorry, that makes sense. Lawrence § t/e 22:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by LessHeard vanU
I request that the ArbCom accept this request, this venue being now the only place with sufficient impartiality and gravitas to allow the evidence, interpretations and responses to be thoroughly and dispassionately considered, the conclusions drawn, and judgement rendered. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Further, in the light of the suggestion
of expediency by NewYorkBrad, Flonight and others, countered by the comments ofby thebainer, I also suggest that review of the evidence already published may be considered expediently, but that consideration of how to address any findings be given the utmost care and all the time that is necessary. LessHeard vanU (talk) 14:49, 14 February 2008 (UTC)- With apologies for jumping in here, my comment was that this case should be "expedited," which is to say, given a high priority and resolved as quickly as possible consistent with the need for an informed study of the evidence and workshop proposals. I would never propose that a case be dealt with "expediently" nor that any ruling be made without appropriate study and consideration. All parties to cases are entitled to a fair, expeditious, and well-informed decision. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- I in turn apologise for inadvertently misrepresenting you and Flonight, and have amended my comment accordingly. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:46, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- With apologies for jumping in here, my comment was that this case should be "expedited," which is to say, given a high priority and resolved as quickly as possible consistent with the need for an informed study of the evidence and workshop proposals. I would never propose that a case be dealt with "expediently" nor that any ruling be made without appropriate study and consideration. All parties to cases are entitled to a fair, expeditious, and well-informed decision. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:00, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by Viridae
Morven should be recused from this, he has already expressed strong opinions on the RfC. ViridaeTalk 21:54, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by semi-involved GRBerry
I blocked Lastexit and Tomstoner because I believe there is no room to doubt that they are sock puppets of Mantanmoreland that were used abusively in 2006. I refrained from acting today with regard to Mantanmoreland or Samiharris because I wanted to give him (or maybe them) an opportunity to explain the behavior. Frankly, the duck test seems quite conclusive here, but I remain open to the possibility that there is another explanation for the evidence that I can't imagine. I note that at this time no editor has endorsed Mantanmoreland's view of the situation.
However, I don't see this as ripe for the Arbitration Committee. At Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Mantanmoreland#Community ban Alison and I have argued fora delay in deciding, Jayron32 has asked if altenative form of community editing restriction might be better, and no administrator has argued for not imposing any restriction. I think it very likely at this point that the community can successfully deal with Mantanmoreland without committee involvement.
Nor do I see any advantage to having ArbComm hold a case about the involvement of the various admins that have defended Mantanmoreland in the past. Unless someone presents evidence that they in fact knew Mantanmoreland was engaging in unrestrained and abusive sockpuppetry, then WP:AGF says we should assume they really thought Mantanmoreland and Samiharris were different accounts.
Nor do I think that there is a point in having the ArbComm make a finding about whether or not Mantanmoreland is the particular BLP that many of us believe he is. Frankly, any finding that he isn't that is not based solely on public evidence won't be credited by many. And I can't imagine the ArbComm issuing a finding that he is that BLP absent a public admission. So, in conclusion, I recommend that the committee decline to accept the case at this time. GRBerry 22:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by Acalamari
I was hoping this wouldn't come to ArbCom just yet, and that the community could handle this issue on its own, but I suppose it's now necessary at this point, and I do encourage ArbCom to accept the case. I hope (and am sure) that the Arbitration Committee will do a thorough investigation here, in the chance that Samiharris is not a sockpuppet of Mantanmoreland at all. Acalamari 22:21, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by Krimpet
I too really hope ArbCom can investigate this case thoroughly and fairly. The most distressing part is that either has Mantanmoreland has misled and abused the trust of a lot of prominent Wikipedians, or a lot of people knew about yet tolerated his abuse of multiple accounts, if not some degree of both. krimpet✽ 22:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
- Additionally, I would really hope that in the interests of transparency, participants in the notorious "WpCyberstalking" list, of which Mantanmoreland participates and it seems his abuse was an open secret in, would recuse themselves as arbitrators in this case. krimpet✽ 22:38, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment by Sean William
Per the precedent on sock/meatpuppets set at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood#Who's who, I don't see why a case is needed. A community ban would do just fine, but a case designed to come to a definitive up or down decision regarding a sockpuppet is bound to be inaccurate on at least some level and would probably end up with a principle similar to the one I linked to. Sean William @ 22:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment by Cla68
I believe the scope of this case should also include the actions of admins who protected Mantanmoreland and his socks from scrutiny, protected the articles that Mantanmoreland favors from attempts to remove his POV, and who retaliated against editors whose actions they apparently didn't approve of during this episode. I'd also like to add that I find it shocking that FloNight did not recuse herself from this case. Please look at this diff [1]. FloNight is one of the admins that I'm going to ask be scrutinized and considered for formal sanctions for her role in this affair. I pointed out some of the ethical concerns involved in the situation to FloNight afterwards [2]. Unfortunately, FloNight elected not to respond. Perhaps she could respond now? Cla68 (talk) 00:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- One other comment...I think evidence now shows that the indef block of WordBomb may have been improper and done under a bad-faith motivation. I request that WordBomb be unblocked for now pending a review of it under this ArbCom case. Cla68 (talk) 00:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- WordBomb, in this thread [3], promises only to edit as a participant in this case if unblocked. On another note, WordBomb in that same thread provides evidence that Morven may have a prior opinion on the matters under examination here. If so, Morven needs to recuse himself or at least provide a full explanation. To Morven and FloNight, did you notice that Thatcher and Kirill have recused themselves from this case? That's called integrity. Morven, if you didn't actually have that exchange with Samiharris quoted on that WR thread, then say so and I'll apologize. Cla68 (talk) 01:29, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment by Dtobias
There may be quite a few blocks and bans that ought to be reviewed, given that some of them were given for running into the third rail of inquiry into the allegations of sockpuppetry and COI that are possibly turning out to be true after all. *Dan T.* (talk) 01:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment by Neil
It is absolutely necessary for the ArbCom to take this case on, and come to a speedy and definite decision. I have little confidence in the community's capability to deal with this case, as there's a small hardcore of administrators who refuse to accept the obvious facts and will defend Mantanmoreland no matter what happens. I second Viridae's opinion that Morven should recuse from this case; he has an clear bias (as expressed in the relevant RFC) in favour of Mantmoreland, and to maintain proprietry, a step back at this point (rather than an insistence on participation) would be prudent. If an ArbCom member feels the need to justify their participation, that's a pretty good sign they should not participate. Neıl ☎ 01:19, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- I also endorse the suggestions elsewhere that User:WordBomb be unblocked, solely to contribute to this ArbCom case, with the understanding that a single edit outside this case will result in the indefinite block being reimposed. If Mantanmoreland can put forward his side of the argument, his "opponent" (for want of a better term) should have the same opportunity. Neıl ☎ 01:39, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment by Sarcasticidealist
This is a very important case, and I'm pleased with the emerging ArbComm consensus to accept it. Given the importance of this case, there are a few things that I believe need to be done:
- the scope of this should be expanded to consider, in addition to allegations of sock puppetry and conflict-of-interest in the affected articles, improper actions by admins at earlier junctures of this episode.
- User:Morven should recuse himself. While I believe that he is truly confident of his ability to look at this with an open mind, any resolution favourable to User:Mantanmoreland will lose a great deal of its credibility if User:Morven participated in formulating it.
- User:WordBomb should be unblocked to allow participation in this case. I do not echo User:Cla68's suggestion that he be unblocked entirely pending a review of his block - I think his overall conduct on Wikipedia speaks for itself - but I don't think that anybody can deny that he will have important contributions to make to this case. If he participates on Wikipedia in places other than on this case, he can be re-blocked. If is disruptive in his participation in this case, he can be re-blocked. But for the sake of this case's credibility, he should be allowed the opportunity to participate in it. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 01:24, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- I also agree strongly with User:Thebainer when he says "an expedited approach may not be feasible". Given how long this has been brewing, I'd support ArbComm taking a great deal of time to examine this thoroughly. Sarcasticidealist (talk) 02:28, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment by Georgewilliamherbert
It would be a better case in many ways if the original spark for this investigation hadn't come from Bagley on Wikipedia Review. One of the more corrosive suggestions coming out of it is the one Cla68 states above, that there's something wrong with WordBomb's block, or that Bagley has been some form of "right all along".
Sockpuppetry vs Abuse - It is important to separately and clearly delineate between evidence of sockpuppetry and evidence of abusive editing.
I am certainly not the only admin who's ever thought that it's possible that Mantan or Sami are the same and are a certain reporter. I have wondered so on and off. On occasions that it came up, I would go look at the edit patterns, and conclude that if they were the same person, or if one or both was that particular person, there was at most a moderate COI disclosure issue, but that the edits were fundamentally good and policy compilant. Events around Mantan and Sami have been disruptive, sure, but their actual editing has generally been solid and balanced. The detailed investigation has shown up a few cases of double !votes and some other issues, but it appears to have been a tiny sliver of their total editing and without general deleterious effects.
While this may be shown to be otherwise by further examination, the evidence as it stands is that at worst this was a moderate abuse of WP:SOCK.
Bagley's fundamental premise is therefore wrong - Even if Mantan and Sami are the suspected reporter, that hasn't harmed the encyclopedia or the Overstock.com related articles.
Bagley's historical behavior remains despicable - Even if Mantan and Sami are the reporter in question, and even if they had been abusive (taking the whole conspiracy theory at face value as true), WordBomb still unambiguously should have been permabanned. Assertions to the contrary raise questions of editor good faith in this.
Questions of proxy editing for banned editors should be addressed - While a number of admins and editors are concerned about this and clearly investigating a suspicion that is reasonable in good faith, others are parroting Wordbomb content and input from other sites, and acting in support of him. Even if the accounts have been lying through his teeth to many of us, Bagley's input still is not welcome here, by policy and Arbcom decision, and several people participating in this have been effectively acting onsite in concert with Bagley offsite. The scope of this issue is narrow (most of those above clearly aren't in any way) but important.
Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 01:55, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment by Lar
I realise I may be swimming upstream saying this, but I'd rather this case NOT be taken just yet. (or perhaps, taken but put in abeyance?) I'd rather see the RfC (which is a bit different than the usual RfC in focus) run to conclusion first. THEN, yes, take it, and investigate the larger issues. Note, I can share my CU findings (inconclusive as they are) with any other CU on request. Alison did much more of the work though. ++Lar: t/c 02:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
- Please forward a summary of your findings confidentially to the Arbitration Committee. Alison should kindly do the same. Newyorkbrad (talk) 02:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Comment by Achromatic
I believe several things need to be done here both for justice to be done, whatever that outcome may be, and for the perception of justice being done. Per SarcasticIdealist, I would also suggest that Morven recuse.
(this para edited for clarity from original revision) Re the comments of others, I am not in support of allowing WordBomb to participate - whilst his treatment may have been unfair in the sense of (assuming the findings are upheld) the proxy war, his other actions have struck down his ability to be able to freely participate here - see below for my reasoning - this issue, to my eyes is "Are these users sockpuppets?" not so much "why?" though that may come out in the course of things.
Georgewilliamherbert posits that "others are parroting Wordbomb content and input from other sites, and acting in support of him", and that "several people participating in this have been effectively acting onsite in concert with Bagley offsite". I would query GWH to "name names". If the very crux of this issue is disclosure of who is who, what motivations people have, and so forth, then you should make statements to that effect, specifically. The two posits are very little more than a smear on of a perceived "side" of an argument, including accusations of sock- and meat-puppetry, and GWH should either provide evidence to support his accusations or strike his comments to this effect as personal attacks. It is disturbing, too, that he is so quick to say "Well, I can see that they've done these things, but it doesn't seem to have done much harm".
To me, the issues of support are as much as important as any others - the double !voting in RFAs and AFDs, and conversations to build the perception of non existent consensus. The issues of whether other editors or admins have been blackballed/hounded as a result of their support or opposition for the protagonists and antagonists in this (complex, messy) affair should, by virtue, only be considered if findings in this specific arbitration are upheld. Hypothesizing on downstream effects at this stage would only serve to increase complexity and messiness by an order of magnitude, and not be immediately useful to answering the questions at hand. Achromatic (talk) 03:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by User:Alison
Per Newyorkbrad's request, I will forward a copy of my checkuser findings within the next two days to the Arbitration Committee. Privacy policy forbids me from publishing them, needless to say - Alison ❤ 04:42, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by User:WAS 4.250
The important thing, is to deal with, as best as can be done, the fact that, because of our ever increasing real world influence and importance, COI is increasingly turning Wikipedia into a battleground. This two year struggle between forces pro and con a variety of positions related to Wall Street, has entangled our internal decision making with lies, truths, positive and negative reinforcers, and promises and threats of real world consequences.
I suggest that we can lessen the degree to which we are a battlefield through two changes:
- Enforce the fact that "A similar view is not by itself evidence of violation of any wikipedia policy or guideline."
- Enforce the fact that "Admins have no extra power to decide content."
The first would prevent the banning of people who disagree merely because they disagree which was a pattern in this horrible affair. The second would prevent looking at the content of a COI case by an admin and their concluding that because they agree with the content that the COI is ignorable.
In this case admins looked at one side decided they agreed with his content and therefore they suppressed information relevant to COI. The community must decide COI, not a cabal. Because otherwise, the cabal is deciding content. So let there be no content deciding cabal. WAS 4.250 (talk) 05:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by Jimbo Wales
My saying at one point that I believed Mantanmoreland to be Gary Weiss is not a smoking gun or anything like one. They are apparently trying to spin this was me "knowing" and "lying" about it. The truth is that I do not know, I have my suspicions like anyone might, but there is no proof and I have tried (hard) to get proof.
- Posting per e-mail. Jimbo doesn't onsite access atm. Will revise/modify per instructions if needed. DurovaCharge! 03:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by Jehochman
This case could have been initiated before or after admins made highly controversial use of sysop tools. Luckily it has come here before that happened. After reviewing the evidence, I was prepared to block Matanmoreland for sock puppetry, but instead proposed a community ban because I thought other sysops might disagree with a block. There is no chance of placing any community sanction, and a great risk of wheel warring. Arbcom needs to confirm or refute the finding of sock puppetry, then fashion an appropriate remedy, if any. Who knew what and when is beyond the scope, unless there is actual evidence of a coverup, which I have not seen yet. The axiom upon which this case turns is that all editors must be held to the same standards of conduct, regardless of their popularity. Jehochman Talk 09:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved User:Random832
I do not think WordBomb should be unblocked. However, User:Piperdown should be unblocked and added as a party - this is a very recently addressed case of someone being accused of being a meatpuppet for little else than raising these same issues. Dan Tobias said above "There may be quite a few blocks and bans that ought to be reviewed, given that some of them were given for running into the third rail of inquiry into the allegations of sockpuppetry and COI" - it seems quite clear to me that Piperdown's ban tops that list.
This makes it quite clear that Morven has pre-judged this case, and that his prior opinion of one person who is only tangentially involved is going to colour his perceptions of all the issues involved.
—Random832 15:21, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by Fred Bauder
As this edit shows, Matanmoreland was warned about using sock puppets about a year and half ago, and quit using the accounts Lastexit (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and Tomstoner (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). Fred Talk 19:15, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Statement by completely and utterly uninvolved Relata Refero
I have looked over one of the disputed articles, Naked short selling, for the first time a short while ago. My comments are detailed at the bottom of Talk:Naked short selling. There is little doubt in my mind that useful information has been kept out of the article and that a skew has been introduced towards journalistic references; a perusal of the talk page - without even any extensive digging through the archives - suggests that one or more of the accounts being investigated were involved in this. Given that, I submit that any claim that the quality and neutrality of the project has not suffered as a consequence of any (as yet unestablished) collusion, false consensus or CoI should be viewed as incorrect. Relata refero (talk) 20:56, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Outing of wordbomb's real name
Can everyone please stop outting wordbomb's real name. It makes you no better than the outing stuff you don't like him doing when you out his real name. Samiharris's last contributions also outed wordbomb's real name in the edit summary and when someone outs a wikipedian's real name in an edit summary ordinarily someone takes care to get rid of it. 4.242.132.121 (talk) 14:54, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- You can only "out" a secret once. After that it isn't outing anymore. Use Google and then tell me you are talking about something that's still a secret. WAS 4.250 (talk) 15:40, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
- That is illogical when compared to other users. There is a person who has a website of administrators' person information. Aside from that, there have been many news reports outing Wikipedians based on user name and real life identity. In 2007 there were many news reports about a wikipedia administrator being an intelligence agent and those all had lots of outing information. But in all those cases, outing information on them has been removed. While the long term abuse pages on banned users do contain their real names on rare occasion, usually people still do not use these real names constantly on wiki no matter how much trouble they cause. 4.242.132.42 (talk) 16:42, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
I think there is a valid point here - when we have a perfectly viable alternative, no purpose is served by using his real name except to use this case as a venue to publish "contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source". I think that because of this, any clerk should replace all instances of "J*** B*****" with "WordBomb" in all pages related to this arbitration (and references to "G*** W****" should likely be obscured somehow too, to be fair) —Random832 20:27, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
WP:COI sometimes requires discussion of real world identities. That is the case in this case. Further, confinement of that discussion to a select group means that that select group determines the content of the relevant articles. NPOV requires that content not be determined in back rooms, cabals, or private mailing lists. WAS 4.250 (talk) 23:51, 19 February 2008 (UTC)