Non-party statements before the case was opened
Statement by uninvolved User:B
I am pleased to see that Ferrylodge is appealing this ban. This is an appalling example of the lynchmob mentality of the community sanction board. The initial ban proposal was made at 23:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC). The block was made at 18:23, 21 September 2007. That's less than 24 hours later and horribly inappropriate.
Ferrylodge had been blocked for an unrelated 3RR when the ban proposal was made and was unable to respond until well into the lynching. As pointed out above, to what extent there is harassment, it is largely mutual and KillerChihuahua is by no means an innocent party in the matter. This diff [1] is over the top and the fact that there was no opportunity for rebuttal and meaningful discussion of KillerChihuahua's assertions before the final course of action was de facto decided makes it difficult to have respect for this process. The person who actually imposed the block, FeloniousMonk (talk · contribs), is himself a participant in the discussion.
To sum it all up, the process was horribly bad. I strongly encourage arbcom to reverse this ban. --B 01:37, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
- Regarding the comments below, yes, I am an admin and yes, I am willing to overturn the block - I firmly believe the ban is incorrect both on the facts of the case and on the process that was followed. I don't know how to make that any clearer than to say what I said above. Obviously, out of respect for our processes, I will not take such an action because two wrongs don't make a right, even though process was clearly abused in this case, but if this were an "old style" community ban, I would be willing to overturn it. I'm not sure what relevance this has in this case since this is not an "old style" community ban. --B 16:12, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Statement by Orangemarlin
Since I'm a stickler for neatness, I decided to utilize the Party2 section. Ferrylodge is engaging in a pseudo-wiki-lawyering to attempt to reverse his community ban based not on the facts of the case, that is, a long history of edit-warring and tendentious editing, sad attempts to attack varous admins utilizing wiki procedures that wasted the community time, and rude personal attacks. Ferrylodge is trying to show a small procedural issue that is subject to interpretation.
The Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Bishonen 2 is the one action by Ferrylodge is that clouds any attempt to give him good faith and to even consider that he should be a part of this community. Specifically, his comments about closing the RfC were at best argumentative, but more probably rude. He was denying the fact that the vast majority of the community spoke, and essentially said to him, "this was a waste of time, there's nothing here." A full read of the RfC tested the patience of many editors. KillerChihuahua, though I am not capable of reading her mind, observed the same patterns over and over again, and felt the need stand up to his editing.
I'm glad he's gone. His usefulness to this project was never relevant. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 13:24, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Statement by ConfuciusOrnis
This is an utter waste of time. Ferrylodge contributes nothing and should have been shown the door a long time ago. I urge arbcom to reject this, and would like to applaud FeloniousMonk for his action. – ornis⚙ 11:33, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Statement by Ali'i
Aloha, ArbCom. I will admit that I hadn't spent time editing with Ferrylodge on abortion related articles (where it is alleged he was most disruptive), but I had seen him edit various political articles such as Fred Thompson and Preamble to the United States Constitution. And so I had always seen Ferrylodge as a constructive editor (although admittedly one with an opinion, but not an axe to grind). He has been very helpful in reverting vandalism where seen, and doing a lot of "the little things" that needed to be done.
So I was surprised when I saw Ferrylodge brought to the Wikipedia:Community sanction noticeboard, especially by someone I respect as much as KillerChihuahua. I thought, oh this must be a mistake. But it wasn't. And after reading the proposal, I responded against the ban. [2] In the course of the ban proposal, many people voiced other options rather than an outright ban (topical ban, revert limits, etc.). However, these other options, along with those of us who objected to the ban, were tossed aside and Ferrylodge was banned, enacted by an involved participant, less than 24 hours after the proposal was brought forth, with no other formal dispute resolution steps even being tried. As I stated on the sanctions board, "The top of this page reads, "Complex or ambiguous cases should go to dispute resolution." This isn't the type of case that should really be handled by the community sanction noticeboard. I know some of you have said, "I don't think dispute resolution would work", but you never bothered to try the next steps. Bans are supposed to be a last resort." And now he's still being mocked along the way.[3]
So now having looked back through about his last 1000 edits (about the last six weeks or so), I know that I was correct in my assumption. Ferrylodge is a helpful contributor who engages in discussion, and was "banned" out-of-process, and out of policy. I humbly ask ArbCom to take this case, and look into the ban. I think something may need to be done (whether a topical ban, etc.), but the ban seems wrong.
Now, I must also apologize for my harsh language directed mostly at FeloniousMonk after the ban was enacted. I don't want anything I said held against Ferrylodge. Mahalo nui loa. --Ali'i 14:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Statement by Pleasantville
I have no experience with Wikipedia's quasi-legal system, so I have no opinion on how the banning of Ferrylodge varied from the ideal version of the process. But I strongly disagree with the characterization of the process as any kind of "mob." The idea of me forming a mob with Swatjester or Jossi is pretty laughable. Rather, what seemed to me to happen was that a diverse group of editors converged quickly but repeatedly to the same conclusion.
Other than that, I said what I had to say in the CSN process(es) and have nothing to add at present. --Pleasantville 17:07, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment by uninvolved Citicat
To preface, I've had a very negative experience in content disputes with Ferrylodge. That being said, I feel it would be the correct action for ArbCom to review this situation, based on the rapid resolution of the proposal at CSN (and what appears to be the inherent flaws in that process), and my opinion that a much better outcome could be found. I think the truth clearly lies between User:Ali'i who states that "Ferrylodge is a helpful contributor who engages in discussion", and User:ConfuciusOrnis who states that "Ferrylodge contributes nothing". Ferrylodge has potential to be a very positive contributor, but to this point has been overwhelming involved in pursuing the goal of pushing his point of view. Other actions should have been attempted before banning. CitiCat ♫ 16:49, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment by uninvolved KWSN
This is grossly unacceptable. What was said here is extremely relevant. There was no chance for anyone to even participate in the discussion. Scratch that, there was no discussion. There was a vote. The ban should not stand period based off the CN "ruling". However, if ArbCom finds a reason to ban, then I personally will have no complaints. Please accept a ban review. Kwsn(Ni!) 17:48, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment by Odd nature
The complaints of Ferrylodge and his supporters that he was denied due process is specious; it does not match the facts. The discussion was opened at 23:32 20 September by KillerChihuahua: [4] The block enforcing the ban was placed at 18:26 on 21 September by FM: [5] That's nineteen hours of discussion. Many bans have been put in place with far less. Ferrylodge had ample opportunity to comment before the ban but instead chose to use it to continue the personal harassment that prompted the proposed ban and announce he was leaving for the weekend. The community then had another 48 hours to discuss the ban, and the result was a 4:1 consensus in favor of the ban. [6] Clearly sympathetic admins were not comfortable unblocking him, either. The proposed alternatives to banning he and his supporters are on about were for 3RR and NPOV parole, not the behavior that prompted the filing: harassment.
The community showed a 4:1 consensus in favor of a ban, no admins were willing to unblock him, and many community ban discussions at WP:AN/I and WP:CSN have run far shorter then the 19 hours before a block and the 48 hours of additional discussion afterwards. There's no reason for the Arbcom to override the community's decision. But if they do decide to taken this case, I suggest they review the incivil behavior of Ferrylodge's supporter User:Ali'i at FM's talk page. Odd nature 19:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment by Rocksanddirt
I recall the WP:CSN discussion, and if the user had been the least bit concillatory or presented anything exulpatory towards his behavior I would say that an arbcomm review of the community ban would be appropriate. As it turned out, nothing to explain, exuse, or rememdy his disruptive, harrassing, personal attacks was presented in approximately 72 hours of discussion either by the user or those who disagreed with banning. I recommend arbcomm endorse the community ban by rejecting an appeal at this time. --Rocksanddirt 20:42, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment by LCP
I have seen both Ferrylodge and KillerChihuahua make positive contributions to articles and discussions. And at different times, I have found myself indebted to both. All that I have been able to discern about the relationship between Ferrylodge and KillerChihuahua is that they share a mutual animosity. Because I respect both Ferrylodge and KillerChihuahua, I do not intend my comments here to detract from either of them. I am also not writing to opine about the timeframe in which the ban was enacted. I am writing to say that while I do not understand all of Ferrylodge’s rhetorical decisions, and have on at least one occasion been bewildered by an issue he has chosen to pursue (“womb”), I have seen him make positive contributions to even contested pages, such as the Abortion page. Although I have not followed his Wiki-career closely and have noticed that he is sometimes notably defensive (as I see it), I can say that over the past year I have not seen him lash out without provocation. Because of this, I give him the benefit of the doubt even when he is perusing issues that I do not understand or that are not dear to me (e.g., “womb”). I think his presence on Wikipedia has net positive effect.LCP 20:56, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment by Andrew c
This shouldn't be about the CSN process. It may be broken, but the community is taking that under consideration at a deletion discussion. I do not believe anyone here is asking the ArbCom to review the CSN, so I ask that the ArbCom take that into consideration (that the issue of Ferrylodge's ban is separate from the CSN, which the community is working on improving).
This also shouldn't be about KillerChihuahua's or anyone else's conduct (unless someone is asking the ArbCom to sanction KC, but again the issue of other user's conduct is separate from the issue of FL's ban. If someone wishes to seek sanctions against another user, they can start mediation processes further down the rung).
Normally, when a user asks to be unbanned, they take responsibility for the past negative actions and maybe even apologize for that. They also normally try to reassure the community that they won't act that way in the future, and that they would even accept limited editing access (1RR, parole, topic bans) or ask for mentorship. In this RFAR, Ferrylodge has not reassured me that anything at all will change in his editing if unbanned. He has remained defensive and gone on the attack aiming at other editors.
Just look at "Summary of my three blocks". He has shown no understanding of the significance of Bishonen's RfC (that Bishonen clearly acted in good faith, had community support, and that the RfC was frivolous). He can't help to point out how he still thinks Severa should have been blocked back in December of last year (blocks serve to disengage, and are preventative, not punitive). Even when he apologized for the most recent 3RR, he goes on to say that KC was acting worse and that he still believes his edits were justified (as opposed to acknowledging that edit warring is harmful, and reverts are not the way to build consensus).
FL has not owned up to the disruptive behavior that multiple, unaffiliated admins all recognized. I would ask that the ArbCom dismiss this request, and let FL cool down. In the future, if he wants to pursue a second chance, by acknowledging his past harmful and disruptive behavior, and by accepting mentorship or other typical steps taken during a second change, then the community should seriously consider that request. But these are all steps that can be examined by the community, and do not require the ArbCom.-Andrew c [talk] 23:36, 10 October 2007 (UTC)
Reponse to Ferrylodge re:Y
If we are going to go there (that FeloniousMonk should never have blocked because he had a minor run in with Ferrylodge at the end of the RfC), we should also disclose information about User:Y. FL, Italiavivi, and Tvoz were edit warring at Fred Thompson, and the page was protected by Mercury. However, Y came along and edited the protected page to restore FL's preferred version. This action caused criticism from myself, B, and some participants on Talk:Fred Thompson. Under the logic that FeloniousMonk should never have blocked, I'd submit that Y should not have been the one to unblock. There was still debate going on at User talk:Ferrylodge whether FL should simply e-mail arbcom, or whether we allow an unblock. Consensus had not been reached, and Y had arguably abused admin tools in the past to support FL. Just thing to keep under consideration. However, this isn't that big of a deal to me. If Mastcell had unblocked, I wouldn't have minded (or better yet, Yamla). Just seems like discussion could have gone a little longer to make sure Yamla was on the same page. -Andrew c [talk] 22:19, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Just for the record, I was not edit warring on Fred Thompson. The disagreement had to do with placement of Thompson's birthname, and I reverted once to the placement recommended by MOSBIO, and one more time when the birthname was completely removed by Ferrylodge. Ferrylodge, on the other hand, reverted 7 times in that day. This was discussed in the CSN action. Tvoz |talk 02:20, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - I "abused admin tools" at Fred Thompson in defense of the subject. I didn't know Ferrylodge then. Furthermore, I did not unblock Ferrylodge. I did it merely in order to allow him to defend himself - he's not currently free to edit any articles under the terms of my unblock. -- Y not? 01:56, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
Statement by uninvolved Arknascar44
- It should be noted that I have never have had any disputes or interactions with Ferrylodge (talk · contribs)
From the opinions stated here in this case, I see two arguments; one that says that Ferrylodge was harassed and perhaps even bullied by administrators, and one that states that the user's past actions are enough to solicit an indefinite ban. I tend to agree with the latter for several reasons. Firstly, Ferrylodge has consistently engaged in edit wars, insulted other editors, and otherwise caused general disruption for quite some time. This, IMO, at least, merits a block of some duration, but probably not indefinite. Factoring in, though, the fact that they show no signs of feeling sorry for their disruption, this then merits an indef block in this situation. In addition, Ferrylodge has yet to apologize for their actions, and furthermore has turned this case into an avenue to insult and demean the users who blocked them instead of a polite request for an unbanning. In my humble opinion, this is not the correct path to take when one is already on very thin ice, and for this reason, I suggest the Arbitration Committee reject this case, and that Ferrylodge remain banned. Cheers, ( arky ) 01:51, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Statement by Severa
The issue with Ferrylodge runs a lot deeper than the most recent 3RR block. It's been ongoing for more than nine months now, and, frankly, I'm surprised it took this long to come to a head, because other disruptive editors I've encountered were never given such a long leash. B's "lynchmob" comment is especially inappropriate, because it suggests that the CSN request arose suddenly from a vacuum, which is as far from an accurate description of the play of events as could be possible in my mind.
The CSN request was the direct result of Ferrylodge's long-term contravention of policy and habitual incivility toward other editors. There is a reason I made a total of zero edits for the month of August 2007; Andrew c was driven from editing articles Ferrylodge frequented for a time.[7] In short, Ferrylodge fits the definition of a disruptive editor, committed to editing articles to conform with and promote his perspective of the world. He doesn't let up: he came in edit-warring on Stillbirth in January and that's the article on which he earned his most recent 3RR block. It's surprising to me that an out-of-the-way, uncontroversial article like "Stillbirth" could be made into ground for the debate over abortion. But, really, Ferrylodge works by casting his net wide, waging the same battle across several articles at once, and thus systemically exhausting the patience of anyone who tries to intervene. If he isn't successful in one location, he just packs up the battle and moves it elsewhere, in the hope that he'll have better luck there. The RCOG dispute is just one example of this phenomenon. In that case, Ferrylodge went ahead and inserted the description "pro-choice" into the article on RCOG,[8] although another editor had already objected to the addition of such a description at the article Fetal pain.[9] At Talk:Pregnancy, he advocated the inclusion of an image which he had earlier failed to gain consensus for at Talk:Fetus, and, when 3 editors (myself included) agreed this image was no more appropriate at Pregnancy than it was at Fetus, [10] [11] [12] he responded by suggesting that a series of perfectly neutral anatomical drawings of pregnant women be removed from the article, describing them as "pro-choice." [13] Five minutes after making this suggestion, he went ahead and removed the anatomical drawings from the article,[14] and did so three more times, after they were restored by myself and another user. [15] [16] [17] He then tried to have the images deleted on Commons.[18]
Ferrylodge's style of interaction with other editors is confrontational and he has a habit of personalizing disputes. I first encountered him in December 2006, when he came to Abortion,[19] which ended up leading to his first block for 3RR. I was accused of "request[ing] that [he] be blocked,"[20] although I'd only reminded him to watch out for 3RR in an edit summary,[21] and the blocking admin, InShaneee, confirmed that he had acted indepedently.[22] Another example is when he apparently went out of his way to insert himself into a minor dispute which arose between myself and an anonymous editor on Vaccine controversy, although the dispute did not involve Ferrylodge, and Ferrylodge had never edited the article in question.[23] Jimmuldrow has also accused Ferrylodge of "shadow[ing]"[24] (and, incidentally, Bishonen's was not Ferrylodge's first RfC). As for incivil comments which Ferrylodge has made, the AN/I thread is a good example, but these two stick out most to me: "My regard for you is I'm sure as low as yours for me, probably a lot lower...And you are dishonest and misleading, as usual" (directed at me) and "I wish that all the vapid people at Wikipedia would be so straightforwardly vapid as swatjester" (directed at Swatjester). Yes, "vapid" is rather tame, but if KC is to be criticized for not pulling any punches with "inane" or "naive and disingenious," then Ferrylodge should rightly hold himself to his own standard. I'm not going to defend the use of "B.S." in an edit summary, but, granted, it reads a lot more mildly to me than "killing the chihuahua."
In the aftermath of the Bishonen RfC, Musical Linguist tried reaching out to Ferrylodge,[25] but his response was to basically dig his heels in even further and reiterate statements made during the RfC.[26] Have the other editors involved ever made errors in judgment on Wikipedia? Most probably. But, when shown the significant issues present in his editing record, Ferrylodge doesn't see anything amiss. I get the impression that he perceives the issue as lying exclusively with everyone else and that this is why he isn't likely to be any more amenable to change in the future. We can go in circles a few more times, but, after nine months of the same, are we really going to arrive anywhere we haven't visited before? We've been through all our options. Our policy is not to bite the newcomers, but Ferrylodge is no newcomer, and he has had almost a year to learn the ropes on Wikipedia. -Severa (!!!) 02:21, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
General ramble by Nick
I've not looked into the whole history surrounding the decision to take the issue to the Community Sanction Noticeboard, rather, my concern was the haphazard way the ban was rushed through, the user was blocked at certain points and in my view, not able to defend himself satisfactorily from the points that were made. If the process had been allowed to develop slowly with comment from all the parties, a ban might well have been avoided, or if the outcome was to ban the user, then there would be a legitimate discussion to back up the decision, as it is, there was a majority to ban, but I don't believe overall consensus to do so.
I would like to see the committee investigate whether there was sufficent evidence and a pattern of behaviour serious enough to warrant a permanent ban from the project, and also to have a look and see if the discussion on the CSN was sufficent to make such a drastic action as a permanent ban. In my view, if the guy is as much of a nuisance as was made out, there was no need to rush the whole process through, I'm quite sure consensus would have emerged for a community ban.
Just a general comment and not directly relevant to Ferrylodge, I don't wish to appear overly "process wonkery-ish" about this whole area, if a user is sufficently disruptive, they should be banned, but I don't think it does the project any favours to rush through a ban, let the process run for long enough that any discussion can't be considered a "lynching", make sure everything is legitimate and don't give troublemakers any more reason to cause problems, any ammunition, so to speak, to use against use any of our editors.
Comment by Thatcher131
I do not believe the issue of how the ban was imposed has any special relevance. By definition, a community ban is one that no administrator is willing to overturn. If no admin is willing to overturn Ferrylodge's ban, then consensus obviously exists now, regardless of how one feels about the process or forum originally used to gauge consensus. Are there any admins willing to unban Ferrylodge? If so, then Arbcom should hear the case to prevent bad feelings between admins on either side of the question. If there are not, then there really doesn't seem to be an issue to Arbitrate. Thatcher131 13:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment by uninvolved Isotope23
I've had no involvement in this situation other than taking a look at it after noticing this request, but I think Thatcher131 is spot on here. Ferrylodge was unblocked to participate here. Excepting that and ignoring the CSN involvement behind FeloniousMonk's block, if there are no admins who would be willing to unblock Ferrylodge for the purpose of returning to general editing then there really isn't much more to say. If there is an admin willing to assert here that they would unblock him, then this should probably go forward.--Isotope23 talk 13:18, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Response to Ferrylodge
I'd simply say that B's statement that ARBCOM should overturn this ban is different that B stating they would be willing to overturn your block unilaterally. Perhaps they would, but my point is that an explicit statement of intent on the part of an administrator would pretty much cancel out the WP:BAN and thus the necessity of ARBCOM accepting this, at least in my opinion. Beyond that, I'd simply say that an RFC isn't a requirement for an indefinite block (which is a de facto ban if nobody is willing to overturn it). If you are indefinitely blocked and no admin is willing to overturn that block, there really isn't much more to discuss here.--Isotope23 talk 15:11, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Reply to Ferrylodge
It is simply my personal opinion that if an admin is willing to unblock you, it basically renders the ban moot and there is no reason for arbitration. If no admin is willing to do that, maybe the committee will want to review the grounds for the initial block, but the more I've thought about it, that sort of review could just as easily be carried out at the admin noticeboard like any other indef block review. In short, I think there should be a review of the block, but on further reflection I'm just not convinced arbitration is necessarily the next logical step for that review. --Isotope23 talk 16:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment by Penwhale
This case is eerily similar to one of the requests below in that a ban was endorsed at CSN only after a few hours of discussion. But like B said above, due process isn't given here, so I will unblock just so that discussion can be done again and this time around with a longer period of discussion, other issues notwithstanding. Unlike B, I believe that process was abused (and I say this because there are 2 such cases right now on RfAq requests).
Also... Since we have multiple issues with CSN discussions closed too speedily, shouldn't we do something about it...? Never mind, apparently I missed the party altogether. - Penwhale | Blast him / Follow his steps 16:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
Comment by uninvolved User:Y
- Disclosure: I unblocked Ferrylodge temporarily in order to participate here
I would also be willing to unblock. I strongly believe the following things:
- The indefinite block was imposed by a participant in the controversy after a radically truncated discussion
- Whatever his misdeeds, Ferrylodge did do a lot of very useful mainspace editing, and that by banning a user like him we are harming the project
- There are remedies much finer than decapitation that would address the concerns expressed.
On the basis of the above, I urge the Committee to accept this case for review. -- Y not? 04:12, 12 October 2007 (UTC)