→Question about fringe site citations: I can't think why A site's politics should bear on the matter of factuality |
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::First off... WP:RS is not policy (much as many would like it to be). It is a Guideline, which is designed to give advice not lay down rules. We can amplify such advice on this talk page, but you should not interpret our advice as dogmatic policy. The policies that seem to relate are [[WP:V]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. That said... what you are talking about seems to be a case specific example. From what you have told us, someone is blanking information that you feel should be included in an article, and basing the blanking on this guideline. This ''could'' be a misunderstanding of WP:RS or ''not'', depending on the specifics. I don't think we can offer good advice on this ''without'' taking into account the specifics of the citation and how it relates to the article in question. All we can say is that, ''in general'', [[WP:FRINGE|Fringe]] and extremist groups make for poor sources. As I said above, they often twist the facts, take things out of context, and misquote ''their'' source material. This is a major reason why the ''general'' rule is to avoid using them as a source. Since you have not shared what the article in question is, we can not tell whether this is the case in your particular article. Thus, it is something you and the other editors who work on this article will have to determine on your own. ''THAT'' said... It sounds controvercial enough that the material should probably be removed to the talk page while full discussion takes place. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 16:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC) |
::First off... WP:RS is not policy (much as many would like it to be). It is a Guideline, which is designed to give advice not lay down rules. We can amplify such advice on this talk page, but you should not interpret our advice as dogmatic policy. The policies that seem to relate are [[WP:V]] and [[WP:NPOV]]. That said... what you are talking about seems to be a case specific example. From what you have told us, someone is blanking information that you feel should be included in an article, and basing the blanking on this guideline. This ''could'' be a misunderstanding of WP:RS or ''not'', depending on the specifics. I don't think we can offer good advice on this ''without'' taking into account the specifics of the citation and how it relates to the article in question. All we can say is that, ''in general'', [[WP:FRINGE|Fringe]] and extremist groups make for poor sources. As I said above, they often twist the facts, take things out of context, and misquote ''their'' source material. This is a major reason why the ''general'' rule is to avoid using them as a source. Since you have not shared what the article in question is, we can not tell whether this is the case in your particular article. Thus, it is something you and the other editors who work on this article will have to determine on your own. ''THAT'' said... It sounds controvercial enough that the material should probably be removed to the talk page while full discussion takes place. [[User:Blueboar|Blueboar]] 16:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC) |
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Interesting. As I remarked a few sections back, I think it is wrong to view this at the level of sites. For example, if (and this is not a hypothetical case) a white supremacist group has a collection of transcriptions of out-of-print, pre-1923 books, and there is every evidence that they are completely legitimate reproductions of the works in question (down to reproducing every footnote and indicating exactly where the pagebreaks are), I can't think why the site's politics should bear on the matter. Conversely, a site can be "mainstream" as all get-out, but intellectually dishonest. - [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] | [[User talk:Jmabel|Talk]] 00:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC) |
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== Fiction as historical fact == |
== Fiction as historical fact == |
Revision as of 00:32, 27 November 2006
Archives |
Guideline
I've been bold and removed the guideline tag from this page. Everything in it that matters is in WP:V or WP:NOR, which are policy. The rest is just advice, which may or may not be good advice, about where to look for sources, and a lot of it consists of platitudes. It doesn't seem to have the support of the community as a guideline. Therefore, I suggest we leave it here as a page of advice only. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 07:51, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Isn't "a page of advice" what a "guideline" really is? On that point I go along with Qp10qp (11 October). Harald88 12:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Pending discussions I'm going to revert to Gwernol's version of 12:30, 13 October 2006
- SlimVirgin, you're free to propose your major changes in Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Temp, or whatever place you think appropriate.
- See also above #Copy edit (3). --Francis Schonken 08:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Francis, it is because of you and one other person that this page is having to be abandoned. Every attempt anyone makes to clean it up is met by reverting, even though it's badly written and almost meaningless in places. Do you realize how badly written it is?
- Examples:
- "As far as the encyclopedia is concerned, a fact is a statement agreed to by the consensus of scholars or experts working on a topic. New evidence might emerge so that the statement is no longer accepted as a fact; at that time the encyclopedia should be revised."
- Problem: A fact is not a statement agreed to by a consensus of scholars; that's just plain wrong. And what is the point of adding our opinion as to when this or any other encyclopedia should be revised? It's words for the sake of words.
- "Wikipedia cannot cite itself as a source — that would be a self-reference."
- Problem: There's nothing wrong with self-reference. You think good publications don't cite themselves?
- "When wikipedians have the ambition to write a better encyclopedia entry than those extant, it does not suffice to rely on the content of such tertiary sources."
- Problem: I can work out what it means, but what's the point of it and why can't it be properly written?
- There are dozens of these platitudes; long-winded, sometimes almost meaningless, at times inconsistent. Please stop reverting to such nonsense and allow this page to be cleaned up. SlimVirgin (talk) 08:28, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps some people find meanings in these statements. The use of the words 'meaningless' and 'irrelevant' are subjective. Disprove the statements on a factual level without using connotations. - Akaneon 02:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- You might even prefer the final version if only you would allow the copy edit to be done. Why not wait and see what it turns out like? SlimVirgin (talk) 08:34, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Please use Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Temp or whatever page you think more appropriate to propose your major changes. Such temp page would be ideal to get an overall idea of where you want to take this.
- Re. your points, in the same order:
- In philosophy of science a fact is sometimes defined as a statement agreed to by a consensus of scholars. (reference: H. Roelants, Wetenschapsleer, Acco, 1977). I've no problem to discuss whether that angle should be taken up by Wikipedia. This is the talk page to do that. Note that in my work on the Poincaré conjecture this angle on how "facts" are seen in science was really helpful. Don't say of my former professor of philosophy of science (H. Roelants) that he would have been "plain wrong", or whatever of your other derogatory verbiage.
- Why Wikipedia cannot cite itself as a source was treated extensively above on this page. If you want to take part in those discussions, please do. I see no need to start a 3rd or 4th place to discuss the same.
- The point is, usually better to rely on secondary sources when available. So now (1) you have worked out what it means, and (2) I explained you what the point is: you can proceed with proposing the same "more properly written", if you think it isn't properly written (IMHO the current phrasing is "properly written").
- Again, please abstain from inflammatory language like "nonsense", "platitudes", "meaningless",... These expressions don't seem justified. There are surely better and less offensive ways to voice your objections. Re. inconsistency: yes, there is some inconsistency that should be worked away in WP:RS. I think Wikipedia:Attribution and Wikipedia:Attribution/FAQ good platforms to work on that too (apart from the temp page proposed above). But don't jump ahead, there is still plenty of "inconsistency" in those proposals that needs working away. --Francis Schonken 09:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- The expressions are completely justified.
- Wikipedia should not use a view that is "sometimes" held in the philosophy of science as its definition of a fact.
- Since Wikipedia has articles on itself, it is a perfectly acceptable primary source, and it's stupid to suggest otherwise.
- I would take your declarations about the comparative value of primary and secondary sources more seriously if this page actually made useful or accurate distinctions between the two.
- Allow me to be blunt: this page is a useless piece of crap. I (speaking here as a college-level English teacher who has taught courses on writing the research paper) would fail a paper that held to these standards of sourcing. There is no point in fixing this page "point by point." It is not worth that degree of effort. Phil Sandifer 21:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- The expressions are completely justified.
- You can't expect people to discuss each and every point of bad English before correcting it. I'm sorry if you find "platitudes" and "meaningless" offensive, but the page is full of sentences that fit those descriptions. This is one of the least respected guidelines on WP, and it probably shouldn't even be a guideline; it has unfortunately gone the way of the MoS. It needs at the very least to be copy edited. I don't see anyone other than you objecting to that. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Please, again, consider using Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Temp or whatever page you think more appropriate to propose your major changes. What would be your problem with that?
- Further, above on this page I expressed multiple times I too think copyediting and updating of this page is a good idea. Only, I don't always agree whit your cuts (often I would cut other parts). I had a partially updated version too, which you reverted within two minutes. So please proceed with your overall proposal on a temp page, I don't see what would we the problem with that. --Francis Schonken 09:36, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Francis, we shouldn't have to create draft pages whenever we want to copy edit. This is a wiki, and this article is in dire need of a good copy edit. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with SlimVirgin that a consenus of scholars do not make a fact. For example, scholars can state in consensus that murder is morally wrong, but this remains an opinion. One scholar can state that someone wrote somehing in a certain book or in his homepage. The latter can be verified in seconds with google and hence is not an opinion. Andries 09:46, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- A fact is a true proposition. Facts don't change over time. If it is true now that E=mc², it was always true, even before anyone had formulated it; and if it is not true now, it was never true, even when everyone believed it. What is true is not connected to the beliefs of any set of people, scholars or otherwise. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- The ease of verification makes something a fact, even if one scholar has stated something. Suppose there is only one scholar who write in a peer reviewed journal that Hitler had moustache at a certain time then this can be stated as a fact because this can be verified extremely easily. Andries 12:24, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- A fact is a true proposition. Facts don't change over time. If it is true now that E=mc², it was always true, even before anyone had formulated it; and if it is not true now, it was never true, even when everyone believed it. What is true is not connected to the beliefs of any set of people, scholars or otherwise. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:31, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Facts are true propositions. It doesn't matter who can verify them. SlimVirgin (talk) 12:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- That is a senseless definition because the big question of course is how do you know whether a proposition is true. If a proposition can be verified in seconds to be true then it is a fact and if it is sourced to a reputable source (even if this is one reputable source) then it can and should be stated as a fact in Wikipedia. Andries 12:32, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Facts are true propositions. It doesn't matter who can verify them. SlimVirgin (talk) 12:27, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's not a senseless definition at all. It's what the word means. We report what reliable sources say (and it is a fact that they have said those things), and there are certain other things (common knowledge, for the want of a better term) that we don't require sources for. I think we both agree on that. But that is not a reason to introduce a false definition and bad writing into a guideline. Clarity of writing = clarity of thought, and vice versa, so it's important. SlimVirgin (talk) 12:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think you provided circular definition of the word fact. Saying that something must be true to be a fact is not helpful and in fact a .... platitude :). Andries 12:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Definitons used in policies and guidelines have to be operationalized otherwise they make no sense. Andries 14:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- See here for an alternative wording User:Andries/Wikipedia:Definition_of_a_fact Andries 16:26, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- It's not a senseless definition at all. It's what the word means. We report what reliable sources say (and it is a fact that they have said those things), and there are certain other things (common knowledge, for the want of a better term) that we don't require sources for. I think we both agree on that. But that is not a reason to introduce a false definition and bad writing into a guideline. Clarity of writing = clarity of thought, and vice versa, so it's important. SlimVirgin (talk) 12:35, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia policies and guidelines need to be about process and not epistemology. The goal of the written versions of policy and the guidelines is to help wikipedia editors make editing choices; and not to lay the foundation for a school of thought or a wikicult. WAS 4.250 16:52, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think that the question how to distinguish facts from non-facts should be treated. Circular definitions of the word fact, such as proposed by SlimVirgin are not helpful. Andries 17:01, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Of course this article is closely related to epistomology. How can it be otherwise?. Andries 17:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Better editing. WAS 4.250 18:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- An alternative to defining fact is to avoid the word in WP:RS. --Gerry Ashton 17:11, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Gerry makes a very good point. This guideline is about reliability of sources, not facts. A completely nonfactual statement ("The moon is made of green cheese" for example) might well be citable to a reliable source. We should not even mention the word "fact". Blueboar 17:49, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Not so, Andries. You've misunderstood the very content policies you want to help edit. We need sources for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged. That pertains to facts (insofar as we know which ones are facts), opinions, arguments, ideas etc etc etc. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:46, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Perhaps we need another word other than "fact"... as one could argue that an opinion is also a fact. After all, it is a "fact" that someone holds the "opinion". I think we are getting tangled up because many people think of the word "fact" as being the same as "true". That is not where we want to go. As a subpage of WP:V (which says that truth is not a criteria for verifiability), we need to avoid such connotations. Any suggestion? Blueboar 20:25, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
<<<Fact carry connotations of either verifiability (that an event has happened) or that it can be proved:
- piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred;
- a statement or assertion of verified information about something that is the case or has happened;
- an event known to have happened or something known to have existed;
- a concept whose truth can be proved;
≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 22:56, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
None of this philosophy about the nature of truth matters for our purposes. We need sources for any edit that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and for quotations. Period. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this removal of the guideline tag and have re-done this. First off, anything really important that needs to be said should be said in our content policies, not here. Second, this page is a complete mess. Third, significant portions of this page don't reflect actual Wikipedia practice; if you interpreted everything on this page literally you'd need access to a university library and scholarly journals in order to be able to contribute to Wikipedia, which I'm sure most of our contributors don't have. Fourth, this page doesn't really represent consensus because changes are resisted far too much, even when they would actually improve the page. JYolkowski // talk 01:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I have to agree as well, and there doesn't seem to be anything of value in here that isn't already expressed better in WP:V. Jayjg (talk) 02:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Looking back, the guideline tag was added without any kind of discussion; it seems to have crept under the radar. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- We need reliable sources in our articles, but this page is a serious mess, unclear, contradictory, verbose and unusable as is. I will support demoting it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I am surprised to be in agreement with Francis! Both on the philosophy ("In philosophy of science a fact is sometimes defined as a statement agreed to by a consensus of scholars.") and with his suggestion that if this page is a badly written guideline then fix it or write a well written replacement and get agreement to replace this one, but do not throw out the baby with the bathwater. SlimVirgin, E=mc² is only a fact in the current widely accepted Physics paradigm. It was not always so and probably will not be in the future (see paradigm shift). In the area I tend to contribute on Wikipedia, as Napoleon said "History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon." and as his nemesis said "The history of a battle, is not unlike the history of a ball. Some individuals may recollect all the little events of which the great result is the battle won or lost, but no individual can recollect the order in which, or the exact moment at which, they occurred, which makes all the difference as to their value or importance". The best we can do in this encyclopaedia is fairly report the current consensus on "facts" and when there is a significant level of disagreement is report those to comply with NPOV. Deciding on what is the current consensus involves value judgements on how reliable a source is. To paraphrase the old Heineken advertising campaign: This guidline while far from perfect 'covers areas that other guidlines do not reach'. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:54, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Philip, please read what I wrote. E=mc², if true now, was always true; if not true now, was never true. Whether it's regarded as true within the current paradigm does not affect whether it is true. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Regarding the quote you gave — "History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon" — that's correct, but you're confusing truth with narrative. We may pick out certain aspects of a story to emphasize or minimize, or ignore entirely, and we may invent others; but our creation of a narrative doesn't change what happened. The U.S. says 60,000 people have died in Iraq. The Lancet says 600,000. We will likely never know the truth. But there is a truth. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:17, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
SV you state below in the consensus section "Anyone arguing that this should be a guideline needs to say what points of importance are here that aren't in V and NOR. rather than reply there I'll do it here as it keeps the two threads separate: The sections by topic eg the History section. --Philip Baird Shearer 11:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- But the subject sections are simply giving advice about where to look for sources. They're not guidelines. The page would remain as an essay for anyone who wanted to read it and follow its advice. SlimVirgin (talk) 11:06, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
My concern is not with those who want to read it but those who don't. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:25, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- People who don't want to read it won't do so just because you call it a guideline. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- A guideline is advice. I do read guidelines for advice, but not essays. Harald88 12:19, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Citing forums in articles about themselves
We have many articles about internet forums, bulletin boards, and Usenet groups. I don't see any previous discussion about using postings to those sites as primary sources about the sites themselves. I'd assume that official postings stating forum policies would be allowed. What about informal comments by the site owners or moderators? Characterizing the nature of forum postings on our own would be original research, but should we quote the postings to illustrate nature of a forum? These and similar issues often come up and it'd be helpful to have more clarity. -Will Beback 18:19, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- PS: There was some discussion in July (Wikipedia_talk:Reliable_sources/archive5#Bulletin_boards.2C_wikis.2C_and_posts_to_Usenet), but it doesn't seem to reached a consensus. -Will Beback 18:23, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- This is common-sense OK. Ignore the guideline and go work on the encyclopedia. Phil Sandifer 21:54, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Ummmmm.... There's a practical issue about this to do with the article wikiturfing - etymology of an internet based word - and a specific suspected instance of wikiturfing - whether or not the main wikipedia english language mailing list is a reliable, editorially supervised source for suspicions of wikiturfing - see:
- Personally i agree with "common-sense", but User:Stbalbach feels that WP:RS overrides what to me is common sense. It would be good to have some independent third parties look at both these pages. According to stbalbach, we would have to consense on modifying the WP:RS policy in order to convince him to accept what to me is common sense. Boud 22:28, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- When the topic is "Internet terminology" or "Internet forum terminology" — as it also is in Disemvoweling — then Usenet posts and blog comments might be fairly cited as primary sources, showing that a term was actually used, with such-and-such meaning, on such-and-such dates. Note that I'm referring to the archived original posts or comments which did so, not to later posts or comments asserting that the term had been used earlier. – SAJordan talkcontribs 23:23, 9 Nov 2006 (UTC).
- Also, looking at the discussions Boud points to, I think the sticking point was not the meaning of the term "wikiturfing" or whether & when & where it was used with a given meaning, for all of which the post using it could be fairly cited. The sticking point was clearly any assertion along the lines that a named company either had committed or had been accused/suspected of committing wikiturfing. This latter type of assertion might be actionable (and ruinous to Wikipedia if pursued by a company with deep pockets) — but it doesn't further the purpose of explaining the meaning of the term — which makes it all drawback and no advantage. I'd agree with omitting that assertion from the mainspace pages. – SAJordan talkcontribs 23:38, 9 Nov 2006 (UTC).
Consensus
(copied from above) I've been bold and removed the guideline tag from this page. Everything in it that matters is in WP:V or WP:NOR, which are policy. The rest is just advice, which may or may not be good advice, about where to look for sources, and a lot of it consists of platitudes. It doesn't seem to have the support of the community as a guideline. Therefore, I suggest we leave it here as a page of advice only. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 07:51, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
- Pending discussions I'm going to revert to Gwernol's version of 12:30, 13 October 2006
- SlimVirgin, you're free to propose your major changes in Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Temp, or whatever place you think appropriate.
- See also above #Copy edit (3). --Francis Schonken 08:10, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with this removal of the guideline tag and have re-done this. First off, anything really important that needs to be said should be said in our content policies, not here. Second, this page is a complete mess. Third, significant portions of this page don't reflect actual Wikipedia practice; if you interpreted everything on this page literally you'd need access to a university library and scholarly journals in order to be able to contribute to Wikipedia, which I'm sure most of our contributors don't have. Fourth, this page doesn't really represent consensus because changes are resisted far too much, even when they would actually improve the page. JYolkowski // talk 01:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I have to agree as well, and there doesn't seem to be anything of value in here that isn't already expressed better in WP:V. Jayjg (talk) 02:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Looking back, the guideline tag was added without any kind of discussion; it seems to have crept under the radar. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:09, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- We need reliable sources in our articles, but this page is a serious mess, unclear, contradictory, verbose and unusable as is. I will support demoting it. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 04:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
This essay lacks consensus to be a guideline. WAS 4.250 05:00, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's simply not correct. The nineteen months from SlimVirgin's 24 August 2005 (style guide => guideline) edit to JYolkowski's 16 October 2006 (guideline->essay) shows this has had widespread and almost unequivical community support. I quit counting Special:Whatlinkshere/WP:RS after 2,000 pages. That a small contingent has suddenly decided it's not a guideline and has stated so here is a poor indicator of consensus. - 152.91.9.144 05:47, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I didn't promote it to a guideline; that was done by Radiant in May 2005. [1] All I did in August 2005 was fix the tag. Far from having almost unequivocal community support, it has always been problematic and has gotten worse in recent months. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:58, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yet another person supporting identifying this page as an essay, not a guideline. It's simply not followed, and not helpful. JesseW, the juggling janitor 07:19, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I don't really have a strong opinion on whether this page should be a guideline, essay, policy, or whatever, but I do feel like Wikipedia ought to have some sort of policy addressing the selection and use of reliable sources, and I'm not convinced that NOR and V are really sufficient to cover that. Perhaps someone who understands the percieved problems here would take a stab at writing a new guideline. Dragons flight 07:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- See WP:ATT and WT:ATTFAQ. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think that this should remain a guideline, because I see a difference between a verifiable source and a reliable source. If this article is broken then it should be fixed not demoted. I think that a lot of the problems arise because different people view these thinks from the perspective of the area of the articles they specialise in editing on Wikipedia. For example if an article is on a subject to do with physics then usually peer reivewed articles are the way to go, and there is little difference between a veifiable source and a reliable source, but in some subjects, like: "was the droping of the atomic bombs a war crime?" or "Were the attacks on civilians during the Bangladesh War of 1971 a genocide", then the reputation of the person or the organization expressing a view has to be considered even if the views expressed are in a verifiable source. -- Philip Baird Shearer 08:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Philip, there is no difference at all between what you're calling a "verifiable" source and a "reliable" one. They are expressions used interchangeably on Wikipedia to signify sources regarded as acceptable for our purposes, regardless of subject matter. What you say above simply makes no sense. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:43, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
For a proposed alternative, see Wikipedia:Attribution. There's no question that the topic of reliable sources is an important one, and one which we should have a guideline on; the question is, is this page, with it's history and current editors, a useful implementation of the topic. Consensus, which I agree with, seems to be that it is not. JesseW, the juggling janitor 08:52, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- There has been a parallel discussion taking place on Wikipedia talk:Verifiability#"reliable sources" where the consensus was that the link to this page should remain, so I am not sure if there is a consensus to demote this page from a guideline. I have now added a comment to that conversation "For those who have expressed a view that the link should remain, unless they join in the discussion on Wikipedia Talk:Reliable sources#Consensus (and address some of the concerns of SlimVirgin and others) then there is little point in the link remaining." So I am going to restore the guideline template at the top of this article and ask that it remains for 24 hours until other editors have had a chance to express their view on this subject. If at the end of 24 hours there the consensus expressed here is that this should not remain a guideline I will not oppose it. --Philip Baird Shearer 09:01, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- You can just as easily leave the tag off and discuss it. Anyone arguing that this should be a guideline needs to say what points of importance are here that aren't in V and NOR. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:40, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see that 'V' or 'NOR' addresses (in an adequate matter) the issue of exceptional claims. There seems to be no guideline prohibiting the insertion of a generally unaccepted/unsupported claim into a given Wiki article, as long as one (1) reference is given. There should be a guideline stipulating that exception claims require multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events or politically-charged issues. As long as that concern is adequately met, I have no preference as to which guideline remains. Cheers!--Black Flag 13:34, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- It clearly is at least an essay. I think the burden is on those who say it is a guideline to show it is the generally accepted standard. I don't think it is anymore, but giving it a day is probably harmless. Tom Harrison Talk 13:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Whether this is a guideline or an essay is, frankly, shuffling the deckchairs. All very amusing for some but fundamentally not addressing the issue. Although I'm not clear on whats caused this latest hobby horsing, although given reputaitons and previous experience of certain protagonists I'm not convinced that this is entirely for the benefit of Wikipedia as a whole.
- First establish is there a requirement for some amplification around how sources might support verifiability? I would suggest that there is, many editors are clearly schoolkids whereas some have first or higher degrees and by implication have much better training in the selection and description of sources. Unless everyone is playing in the same game with regard to source quality then many articles will never reach a stable state, it's too easy to self publish something in support of your own argument, and then cite yourself as an authority.
- Secondly, should that additional guidance be embedded within the policy regarding verifiability or should it exist as an annex/ appendix to the policy? Personally I see a discrete existence as useful as the discussion around assured sources will result in more dynamism than one would hope for in a policy.
- Thirdly, how should the amplification be styled? As advice, or as a description of cases where sources have been agreed to be assured to a sufficiently high level? Bearing in mind that the book on research methods currently on my desk is about 4 centimetres thick and aimed at doctorates we need to find some method more easily digestible for the average editor.
Everything else is just grandstanding.ALR 13:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Until we reach a consensus on whether to do a replacement guideline or a re-write of this guideline (and I don't see that yet), I don't think we should demote this page to an essay. Also, if we do end up adopting a replacement (such as the WP:Attribution proposal), I don't think we should demote this page until that one is in final form and promoted in its place.
- I have to ask why people feel there is a rush to demote this page? Wouldn't it be better to take the time to get any replacement/rewrite right first? Blueboar 13:37, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- A reasonable course of action; no need to move so fast here. Until "Attribution" is sorted out, or something else is put in place, we need this page. Sandy 14:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's my point. Until you identify a requirement and establish something to fulfil that requirement then changing the label is a waste of time. (OK I'll admit to having some experience in requirements engineering)ALR 14:11, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Should be a guideline. Where in the policy is the part that says "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" (A piece of important advice). - Francis Tyers · 14:04, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Furthermore, I agree with Blueboar, no point in demoting this until something better is in place. - Francis Tyers · 14:08, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
This is important in many articles I edit, and helps keep the "pseudoscience" out. Plenty of books and reputable medical .orgs spout non-peer-reviewed medical information: this guideline helps combat those sources. Is this covered at WP:V? Sandy 14:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Obviously, this page no longer carries the consensus of the community. Keeping the "guideline" tag is no longer appropriate and it is misleading. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
What is the harm in keeping this as an essay? There are may exc ellent and useful essays in WP. As it stands now, this page no longer has the consensus it once had, mainly because of the bloat and the endless additions and variations. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:35, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I will quibble with your last statement Jossi... this has been a guideline for months. So making it an essay is a change, not a keep. You either have to say "what is the harm of changing this to an essay" or say "what is the harm of keeping this as a guideline". Blueboar 19:18, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- For those of us who have resolved many, many editor difficulties on this page, it is clear that this guideline needs to remain a guideline. The issues which arise will be confronted somewhere. This is the best and most likely page to resolve many issues about sources of information. Even if the guideline becomes more abbreviated, this discussion page is a valuable place to discuss obvious issues of "which reliable source is better" and things like, "I can verify this but my neighbor can't" (what shall we do?) and so on. Keep this guideline, its useful. Terryeo 22:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see how not having this as a guideline will make it harder to resolve editor disputes, or remove this as a good place for discussion. JYolkowski // talk 23:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- For those of us who have resolved many, many editor difficulties on this page, it is clear that this guideline needs to remain a guideline. The issues which arise will be confronted somewhere. This is the best and most likely page to resolve many issues about sources of information. Even if the guideline becomes more abbreviated, this discussion page is a valuable place to discuss obvious issues of "which reliable source is better" and things like, "I can verify this but my neighbor can't" (what shall we do?) and so on. Keep this guideline, its useful. Terryeo 22:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- For one thing, people out there editing articles look on the guidelines as being the rules. When a dispute occurs, people look to these guidelines to settle them. This is especially true with WP:RS, which is referred to a lot. If we demote this to an essay before agreeing on what will replace it, we leave disputing editors with no rule to refer to. I don't mind working on a revised guideline... whether a rewrite of this article or something new, but we need to have something in force at any one time. I se
e it as being like a law... an old law is in force until a new one takes effect. Thus, we should leave this version in place as a guideline until a replacement is ready to roll. For those of you who do not like this version, leaving it as the "opperative" version should be an incentive to work all the quicker on drafting a replacement.
- Furthermore, there are some statements made on this page that have had a great impact throughout Wikipedia because they are part of a guideline (ie a rule) ... an impact that would be lost if were changed to a mere essay. To give just one example: The guideline, as it is now, repeatedly states that blogs are not considered reliable (a statement which I do not find in many of the proposed replacements by the way). This has been a major topic on this page, and after a lot of back and forth, consensus seems clear that blogs are not considered reliable. This section of the guideline has been referred to in countless disputes, in article after article. If we demote this page to essay status, those editors who have had citations to their favorite blogs removed as being "unreliable" will have a field day returning them to articles with the comment "WP:RS is just an essay... its not a valid reason to bar my citation". There are other parts of this guideline that will face similar reactions. Blueboar 00:21, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- BB, the blog thing is in V and/or NOR. There was no point discussing it on this page. It sometimes seemed as though the editors on this page didn't realize there was a corresponding policy. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:40, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Here it is. [2] Are you saying you weren't aware of that? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:43, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I was indeed aware that the no blog satement was in WP:V (although it is stronger in tone here) ... What I am saying that it is the fact that this is contained in this guideline is important. People cite to this to resolve their disputes. Blueboar 00:59, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Guideline or Essay?
Let's please stop the revert warring on whether this is a Guideline or an Essay ... We seem to have a dilemma. A few editors wish this article to be demoted to "essay" status (stating that they do not see consensus for it to be a guideline). On the other hand, there does not seem to be any consensus for demoting it to essay either. My personal preference is to leave it as a guideline. Things are too much in flux right now to demote it. I think many of us agree that, as a guideline, it has problems... but we have not yet reached any consensus on what to do about it. Do we clean up what exists? Do we do a complete rewrite under the same heading? Or do we trash WP:RS and go with another concept such as "Attribute"? Until that question is decided, we have to leave something in place for peple to refer to. Since a ton of article discussion pages currently refer to this as a guideline, I really think we should be reluctant to demote it until we have something ready to go in its place.
And what is the harm of keeping this as a guideline? Even in its bloated form it serves its purpose. Yes it needs work, but why the rush to demote it? Blueboar 19:14, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Blueboar, we don't need consensus to demote it; there only needs to be a lack of consensus that it should be a guideline. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:22, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, it is a dilemma, but maintaining a status quo for the sake of it, is never a good idea as it stiffles improvements. The promotion to guideline was done with very little support from the community and since then it has grown to something that is more confusing than helpful. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 19:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Fair enough, so eom up with some constructive material rather than grandstanding on what label to apply.ALR 20:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Personally, I consider essay a compromise between guideline and rejected/historical... Phil Sandifer 19:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'd refer back to establishing a requirement first. Until you know if you have a requirement or not, and what that requirement is, anything else is so much hot air (proverbially)ALR 20:12, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Jossi, I am not so sure that you are correct in thinking that the promotion to guideline was done with very little support from the community... and if it was, it has subsequently gained a LOT of support since then. This guideline is constantly being refered to by editors trying to settle disputes over citations. I would say that that shows that the community at large supports it (or at least the concept of it).
- I am trying to be open minded here, but to me it looks like a few editors have decided that they dislike aspects of the guideline, and are trying to force through a change that others are not comfortable with (at least not yet). I am not saying that this is actually true, just that this is how it looks to one who has, till now, been only tangentially involved. The pace of that change seems to be awfully quick, too quick for my comfort. I would like more discussion on exactly what is wrong with the existing guideline, and some suggestions on how to fix these problems. I also think we need a firmer consensus on where we should go before we throw the baby out with the bath water. Blueboar 20:45, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Flaws offers a pretty good accounting of the problems. Phil Sandifer 20:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Creating a criticsm is less useful than resolving the difficulties. It matters not a whit how many the criticisms be created, what matters is resolving the difficulties. I don't agree with all of your essey, Phil, and I feel it is dispersive and non-productive to create such an essey instead of attempting to resolve the difficulties which are extant whether you criticize them or not. The problem revolves around the issues which WP:RS has long confronted, this is a discussion page for such issues. Whether you, or anyone, criticizes this guideline, the issues which drove the forming of this guideline still happen. A criticsm, by itself, doesn't help resolve the issues which this guideline addresses. Terryeo 22:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- I support having a guideline on sourcing. I don't support basing it on this. This page is so deeply flawed that it is preferable to start over. Phil Sandifer 22:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. SchmuckyTheCat 00:15, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I support having a guideline on sourcing. I don't support basing it on this. This page is so deeply flawed that it is preferable to start over. Phil Sandifer 22:42, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Creating a criticsm is less useful than resolving the difficulties. It matters not a whit how many the criticisms be created, what matters is resolving the difficulties. I don't agree with all of your essey, Phil, and I feel it is dispersive and non-productive to create such an essey instead of attempting to resolve the difficulties which are extant whether you criticize them or not. The problem revolves around the issues which WP:RS has long confronted, this is a discussion page for such issues. Whether you, or anyone, criticizes this guideline, the issues which drove the forming of this guideline still happen. A criticsm, by itself, doesn't help resolve the issues which this guideline addresses. Terryeo 22:36, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Flaws offers a pretty good accounting of the problems. Phil Sandifer 20:49, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Slim Virgin, you stated in an edit summary: there doesn't have to be consensus to demote; there needs only to be a lack of consensus to retain as a guideline Can you point to where that is policy? Blueboar 00:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- You'll have to look for yourself, BB, though I doubt anyone has written it down because it would be stating the obvious. If a guideline no longer has the support of the community in that most people ignore it; if a small number of editors won't even allow the page to be copy edited; if it doesn't contain anything that the related policies don't cover; if it's long and confusing and embarrassing; and if most of those posting on its talk page want it to be an essay, then clearly there is no longer consensus that it should be a guideline. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:37, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Slim Virgin, you stated in an edit summary: there doesn't have to be consensus to demote; there needs only to be a lack of consensus to retain as a guideline Can you point to where that is policy? Blueboar 00:32, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. I don't find it obvious at all. I think you also need consensus to demote a guideline. A lack of consensus on the wording of a guideline means that we need to work on the guideline... not get rid of it. What is obvious to me is that a LOT of people support this guideline, but understand that it needs improvement. That may mean a complete rewrite, but it may not. I see perhaps five people who disagree with the rest and are pushing an agenda here (demoting the article). I would prefer to leave this in place for now, and have those of you who have problems with it draft a proposed rewrite, and post it for us to think about? For that reason, I am going to revert back to guideline. I really hope we can avoid a revert war here, but there is clearly not a consensus to demote at this time. Blueboar 00:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- WP:V is the policy, not this page, and it is WP:V that says blogs are not allowed; I copied that to this page simply to make sure the two were consistent. The fact that people are discussing on this page whether to remove it without realizing that it's the policy page it would need to be removed from is indicative of the problem. SlimVirgin (talk) 09:13, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- I disagree. I don't find it obvious at all. I think you also need consensus to demote a guideline. A lack of consensus on the wording of a guideline means that we need to work on the guideline... not get rid of it. What is obvious to me is that a LOT of people support this guideline, but understand that it needs improvement. That may mean a complete rewrite, but it may not. I see perhaps five people who disagree with the rest and are pushing an agenda here (demoting the article). I would prefer to leave this in place for now, and have those of you who have problems with it draft a proposed rewrite, and post it for us to think about? For that reason, I am going to revert back to guideline. I really hope we can avoid a revert war here, but there is clearly not a consensus to demote at this time. Blueboar 00:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- You have a good point, although the problem is not this particular guideline. More and more people start to use phrases like "enforcing guideline so-and-so". There seems to be a tendency to regard guidelines as a kind of policy... When people start regarding more-or-less generally accepted advice as something that can be enforced instead of applied, then it becomes a big mess.
- Nevertheless, a good solution could be to make this article similar to the WP:NPOVT that is not marked as guideline but is linked from WP:NPOV. Big chunks that repeate WP:V can then be simply deleted, giving space for more practical advice. Harald88 12:37, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
For my two cents, I've long considered this page to be a guideline, and think that it should remain in that status until there is clear consensus to change. It is easy to locate a handful of editors (which is all we see so far) that are in disagreement with anything. It is a lot harder to truly measure whether consensus still exists. Thorough analysis of the pages that link here is the way to evaluate that, not just the appearance of a few people pro or con on this talk page. This has been around so long that any demotion should be discussed in the general policy discussion forums prior to demoting. In short, I see no reason to believe that this is not still a guideline. GRBerry 20:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- So are you saying, lets keep it as a guideline because that's what you're used to? Could you at least advance some reasons for keeping it that relate to the content; then its critics can get their teeth into showing that where it duplicates policy it is superfluous to policy, that where it adds to policy it usurps policy, and that where it contradicts policy it damages policy. In my opinion, this page would make more sense as an FAQ; even under that moniker, its defenders, in my opinion, should consider opening it up to a major rewrite and tightening. qp10qp 21:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Guidelines are only guidelines because there is consensus to follow them to some degree or another. If, for whatever reason, a guideline is no longer widely followed, then it ceases to be a guideline. There doesn't need to be consensus against the guideline in order to "demote" it. This guideline is in fact not widely followed at all, so it really isn't a guideline. JYolkowski // talk 21:49, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
My two cents: if discussion of this page demonstrates anything, then it is that drawing up a general guideline on what is reliable and what is not is a terribly difficult task. What is applicable to physics is not applicable to history, what is applicable to history is not applicable to popular culture etc. Preference for academic sources is a good idea, but we'll never write an article on Pokemons solely from peer-reviewed journals. Instead, I would prefer to see some topic-specific research advice; the narrower its scope, the better. For example, existing Wiki projects could provide lists of journals dedicated to their subjects. Most of all I'd hate to see blanket support for some sources to the detriment of others, and this page as it stands is doing just that: works by an academic crank are considered reliable (Ward Churchill was an academic last time I checked), but those by a highly respected non-academic scholar are not (where did Josephus earn his Ph. d.?). Of course, such guidance is disregarded in practice, and articles on the ancient history make heavy use of Tacitus, Suetonius et al. even though the latter are not considered reliable sources by this guidance. In a nutshell, we need something that people respect and find useful instead something they disregard. Beit Or 18:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Must say I've been tossing around in my head the idea that more involvement from the Projects would be a good idea here. Didn't know how to formulate that idea, tx Beit for doing that.
- Like you say, the current rules work a bit awkward when one wants to do a serious job when writing about Antiquity, for instance. Reliable sources are, in that area, judged by completely different standards than whether or not something is "self-published". There are more academic standards than that for Antiquity, for instance, how compatible an Ancient historian's writings are with excavations, and how dependent the Ancient historian is on superstition (which is for instance a reason why Dio Cassius is generally regarded less "reliable" than Suetonius and Tacitus: Dio swims in a host of trivial and unlikely supernatural story-telling, which isn't the best recommendation to be taken serious as an historian). "Self-published" or not is a useless distinction when discussing reliability of authors before, say, the invention of book-printing. It even is a quite useless distinction when discussing more recent re-publications of these ancient authors, see for instance the confused & confusing answers I got here, asking about, among others, two generally respected re-publishers of Ancient sources.
- I do think Projects giving attention to this, like Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles)#Sources, a really good idea. But that leads to a question. Suppose one is writing an article about a conflict between, say, followers of Islam and followers of another religion: if the Project on that other religion also defines "good sources", you could bet on it that these are going to be somewhat incompatible with the "good sources" according to "Islam-related" Projects. Have we gained anything then? Or should we not worry too much and confide in it that discussions between the participants of both Projects would be preferable over sorting it out by ArbCom (like Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Israel-Lebanon or /Deir Yassin massacre)? --Francis Schonken 21:36, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- Exactly, Francis, and this is the problem I wanted to avoid most of all: unwarranted support of some sources to the exclusion of others. Just out of a top of my head I can name more scholars of Islam than the project page does, including those who have no Wikipedia entries: Ignaz Goldziher, Joseph Schacht, Claude Cahen, Arthur Stanley Tritton, Oleg Grabar, Clifford Edmund Bosworth, Yohanan Friedmann, Laura Vecchia-Vaglieri, Meir Moshe Bravmann, Leone Caetani, Evariste Lévi-Provençal, Shelomo Dov Goitein, Rudi Paret, and I could proceed further). The only purpose that has been achieved on Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles)#Sources is the endorsement of some scholars to the exclusion of others. The folks who have compiled the list did not even attempt to hide their political motivations: see a section below on how to defend Islam against criticism. Funnily, they've even managed to call Understanding-Islam.com a reliable source because it is associated with a certain organization that calls itself an institute. Beit Or 09:59, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
I think it's a very bad idea to demote this. It serves an important purpose and whether or not that's the intention, demotion will be seen as a signal that "hey, we don't really know what reliable means". Actually, I just came up to that page after pointing someone to it when he was using an internet forum in Russian and telling me that it's reliable even though it's in Russian. I wanted to get the right quote for him to indicate that I'm not bothered about Russian sources but about internet forum sources. Inevitably, if this were to be demoted his response would have been: it's just an essay, not a guideline. If it needs a fix, let's fix it. But why be rash and go for demotion? Pascal.Tesson 21:40, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
- I lean towards supporting it, because I believe a separate guideline will be drawn up elsewhere, at Wikipedia:Citing sources. I'm not convinced we can detail what exactly constitutes a reliable source. I think it changes in context and we need a reflexive approach. A reliable source is one which, ultimately, we rely on for the information. The reliability can only be judged depending on what is sourced from it, since we don't know how reliable it has to be until we see what's sourced from it. Is Jeffrey Archer a reliable source? Depends what you source from him. If we don't allow flexibility in our guidelines, we risk losing them to the crashing waves of consensus. I think this can be downgraded. I think we need a new approach. Steve block Talk 16:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
A few editors wish this article to be demoted to "essay" status (stating that they do not see consensus for it to be a guideline). On the other hand, there does not seem to be any consensus for demoting it to essay either.
- You do not need a "consensus for demotion" to remove the guideline tag from a page. Without a consensus (and there is clearly no consensus here) there is no guideline.
- This page should have a {{rejected}} tag if consensus cannot be reached. {{Essay}} is not appropriate, either, since this page is actionable.
"there doesn't have to be consensus to demote; there needs only to be a lack of consensus to retain as a guideline" Can you point to where that is policy?
- You shouldn't have to look too hard. It's clearly stated in Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines:
A rejected page is any proposal for which consensus support is not present. Consensus need not be fully opposed; if consensus is neutral on the issue and unlikely to improve, the proposal is likewise rejected. Making small changes will not change this fact, nor will repetitive arguments. Generally it is wiser to rewrite a rejected proposal from scratch and start in a different direction.
SlimVirgin, you're free to propose your major changes in Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/Temp, or whatever place you think appropriate.
- "Amendments to a guideline should be discussed on its talk page, not on a new page ... it's generally acceptable to edit a guideline to improve it." Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines
- Also read through Wikipedia:How to create policy. — Omegatron 21:44, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Something wrong here
On Oct 10 there were 67 postings to this discussion page. Something is wrong here. WP:RS has been used to resolve innumerable editor disputes. Quoting WP:RS has been useful by a number of editors over a long period of time. It may not be perfect but it has been useful. And, in addition, this discussion page has served as a platform where editors come to resolve difficulties. The difficulties of what exactly a reliable source is will happen. Editors will need to resolve them. Whether that is done here or done on some other page, such conflicts of opinion and difficulties will continue and need a discussion page such as this one to discuss. Why are we going to lose this page? Who or what happened which caused so much difficulty that issues can not be discussed ? Terryeo 22:10, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- One of the difficulties is that we're not even able to copy edit the page, even though the writing is not good and the contents confusing. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- We're not going to lose this page; it's just that there's no consensus for it to be a guideline anymore. Furthermore, blindly quoting WP:RS instead of thinking for yourself causes problems too because the content of this page is so problematic. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Flaws, which Phil mentioned above, for some examples. JYolkowski // talk 23:51, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
- Terryeo, which parts of RS have been used to resolve disputes that aren't in V or NOR? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:24, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
- WP:RS has been used to resolve innumerable editor disputes. As an essay it can still be used to resolve disputes; just not as a tool of force that substitutes for communication.
- Quoting WP:RS has been useful by a number of editors over a long period of time. It may not be perfect but it has been useful. And, in addition, this discussion page has served as a platform where editors come to resolve difficulties. The difficulties of what exactly a reliable source is will happen. Editors will need to resolve them. Whether that is done here or done on some other page, such conflicts of opinion and difficulties will continue and need a discussion page such as this one to discuss. As an essay all this is still true. You just don't get to use this page to not communicate. As just an essay you actually have to justify your claims rather than rely on what someone added to the page yesterday.
- Why are we going to lose this page? It was called a guideline then added to without regard for consensus. WAS 4.250 00:38, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
I made sure that everything important that was in V and NOR was repeated on this page. I think the only exception is "exceptional claims require exceptional evidence," but that's sometimes trivially true and sometimes wrong, so by all means add it to V, though leaving it out will make no difference. The rest is either fluff or advice about different subject areas, which would be just as useful tagged as an essay. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Blueboar, as a disputed policy it has zero value. As an essay it retains some value. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:57, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- How does it have no value? It is opperative until a replacement comes along. And an essay have very little value as it is simply an opinion. What do you have against leaving it in place while the replacement is drafted? Blueboar 01:03, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- If it carries the disputed tag it measn that it is not operative, as its validity is disputed. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:50, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- not operative=blatantly ignored. SchmuckyTheCat 02:26, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- For what it's worth, Wikipedia needs a policy like this, please save it, changed as necessary, but do not demote. In particular, the policy on self-published sources is extremely valuable. --Uncle Bungle 04:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Uncle Bungle, what is in here on self-published sources that isn't in WP:V or WP:NOR, which are policy? SlimVirgin (talk) 09:09, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Self published secondary sources. As I understand it, a self published source (such as a website), even if it cites primary sources, can not be used as a source of information in an article. --Uncle Bungle 22:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- That's in the policies. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
- Some other sections I've found useful are: false authority and non-english sources. --Uncle Bungle 22:35, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Non-English sources used to be in the policy but someone moved it. False authority isn't something that can be policy; it's just advice. SlimVirgin (talk) 13:21, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
WOO HOO! Yeah let's ditch this and start exalting blogs and self pubs to their rightful place in the empire of knowledge. 205.157.110.11 00:36, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
- I also have found this page useful in informing my edits. I agree that there are some problems with it overall, but some have come lately and made sweeping and brusque changes, as well as tried to demote it to an "essay" which as far as I know strips it of any authority. These are attacks on the page itself which I find to be unwarranted. The best thing to do, like I think some have said and worked on, is to build a replacement draft, then seek consensus (for instance with a straw poll) to replace RS with the draft. DanielM 09:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
There are always going to be details to hammer out, but I've found this guideline very helpful overall in judging whether a source is appropriate. I also believe on the whole it is a very sensible extension of WP:V. I would entirely support keeping the guideline status. As to preventing even copy-editing of the page, that is an issue with the editor(s) in question, not an argument against the policy. Seraphimblade 05:30, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'm jumping in the discussion a little late, and I've tried to read all the comments above, but please do forgive me if I have missed a point or rehashed a statement (as there was a lot to read). In my mind this page has helped make Wikipedia better. If I look at my edits over my wiki-lifetime, after reading this article, I've striven to use better sources because of this page. It has also helped greatly in combating POV warriers, who either do not cite material, or cite material of dubious value. I've just skimmed this article, and it is bloated, but I would say, let's either take out the portions that are disputed right away, and work on them, and then bring them back in, or let's work on a new page while this one remains a guideline, and then replace it once there is consensus. I would hate to lose a page that has helped, in my mind, Wikipedia become more authoritative. Regards, -- Jeff3000 14:53, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Reliable Sources in AfD for neologism
The use of a humour book being used as a reliable source for a neologism is being discussed in a current AfD: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Dyke_tyke. It would be appreciated if those who've been thinking about the appropriateness of pop culture sources might comment there (or here.) --LeflymanTalk 03:05, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
Convenience links essay
I just wrote an essay on Wikipedia:Convenience links, one of the frequent topics here, and would love to hear any thoughts. Thanks, TheronJ 21:44, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
- Good start. One thing however doesn't make sense to me:
- "In cases where an editor reads only an "intermediate source" such as an on-line copy of a print publication, the editor should cite intermediate source, but may also mention the original source. In such a case, the intermediate source must itself be reliable."
- That may be good for Talk page discussion but not for the article, as it boils down to relying on anonymous Wikipidia editors as source. There is no reason to trust the accuracy of citations by a Wikipedia editor more than citations by unknown websites, especially if the text is hand-copied from paper. A convenience link to an unknown intermediate source that editors agree on including is just as (un)reliable as a direct citation or paraphrase of the original paper in Wikipedia. Harald88 12:00, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Exceptional claims
"Exceptional claims should be supported by multiple credible and verifiable sources, especially with regard to historical events or politically-charged issues." -- A contradiction here -- if a claim fulfills these criteria then doesn't it cease to be exceptional?
- No. Blueboar 12:14, 20 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think what user blueboar is trying to say is just because multiple people claim something, it doesn't mean it isn't exceptional. For example, if I were to state George Bush is gay, it is pretty exceptional. If I evidence of him going away with a guy for a long time, and this guy is alot younger and thought of to be homosexual, and had evidence for this (along with a few other people who agree), it is still exceptional. By providing multiple sources, Wikipedia avoids slander, stating "These people claim this", rather than "this is a fact".-- ¢² Connor K. 15:08, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Media Matters for America
Media Matters for America is an US-based wesbite that makes available controversial audio, video, and book statements from political pundits and politicians who are pushing an agenda. Recently, at the Sean Hannity article, which once contained sourced controversy and criticism including Media Matters clips' of Hannity's radio and TV show, everything is gone.[3] (I restored some now.)
This happened over several days with two editors claiming Media Matters is not a RS because "it has a slant". These two editors slowly pulled apart the criticism section. Then a few days later Sandy deletes what was left with an edit summary: "This sections says nothing, goodbye".
Media Matters for America is a good informative site, that while its political, it is certainly a RS as it contains audio and video clips of controversial statements. Using this site to source controversial claims. Example: Hannity said "the anti-war left" for protested at soldier's funeral, but it was actually organized by anti-gay church. This included Hannity original words with the before context and its anaylsis contains various third party sources including the anti-gay church, The Indianapolis Star, etc. Arbusto 01:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Covered in a discussion on Jossi's talk page, and the article talk page, involving consensus among several editors working on Hannity at the time, Media Matters is not a neutral source, per their own website statement that their mission is to is to "monitor, analyze, and correct conservative misinformation in the U.S. media." Discussion from Jossi's talk page, much of it repeated on the article talk page, where poorly-sourced content was deleted by numerous editors. Arbustoo is re-inserting content which was deleted after consensual discussions among several editors: if WP:ATT now is heading in the direction of allowing biased sources as reliable sources, clarification is welcomed. Other biased sources were also removed; all have been re-inserted. Sandy (Talk) 02:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, let us review this "consensus" you speak of. Two editors (Sandy and Getaway) want that material removed, and two don't (Kuzaar and plange).
- I again ask, what specific claims do you dispute? While it has a slant, how it not reliable? Should we begin removing all things cited with Fox News links because it leans right? Arbusto 02:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- On a side note, Sandy, at Michael Moore controversies that whole article is sourced with conservative blogs (DaveKopel.com, Moorewatch.com, SpinSanity.com, Nationalreview.com, HardyLaw.net). If those sources are removed from the Moore article there whould be no criticism in it. Are you going to actively remove those sources and that article as well or just focus on Hannity? Arbusto 02:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
OK folks... Before this gets out of hand, I want to remind you that the ONLY question relevant here is this: "Is Media Matters for America a reliable source?" Having looked at their website, including their page on Who we are and staff/advisors, I have to say that I do not think that it is. First, this has nothing to do with slant or bias. that issue should be raised at WP:NPOV. As far as bias goes: a biased source can be reliable, and a reliable source can be biased. However, I do find other problems... The first is the issue of Verification. While the site does tell us who is on the staff, none of the articles on the site tell us who actually wrote the peice or compiled the information. The second is that given that the articles provides commontary, it can not be used as a neutral "convinience link" for what Hannity (or another conservative media personality) has said, we can not be sure that they have not taken his statements out of context. Third is that this comes very close to being a blog (I see it as borderline between an "editorial" page and a blog.) Blogs are not considered reliable. At best, I would say that the material on this site is "opinion", which requires attribution to be used. Blueboar 12:52, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see any issue with #1, #2 is easily dealt with, and #3 is irrelevant, "close" doesn't mean" is. I see no problem with it being one. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:01, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Media Matters for America is clearly a biased Reliable Source. Blogs are not reliable because they are written by someguy. The website in question is written by Eric Alterman ph.D, Duncan B. Black ph.D, David Brock, Eric Burns (journalist), and others listed at their staf page, invalidating 3. Articles are signed (initials at the bottom), invalidating 1. 2 has no relevence to reliability. JBKramer 13:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- To add to this - sure, it's biased. So is National Review, The New Republic, [Mother Jones]], etc. We wouldn't (and shouldn't) hesitate to use them as reliable sources. Some would make the argument that the New York Times or Fox News are biased, too, but no one would hesitate to call them reliable, either. As long as we recognize the biases, there shouldn't be an issue. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- The editors originally seeking help on Jossi's talk page per WP:BLP said that #2 was *not* easily dealt with: that the content was only available on MediaMatters, and that it couldn't be verified as complete, neutral or in context. In general, unless some clarity is provided about the new proposal being developed at WP:ATT, upholding WP:BLP opens editors applying the requirement for only the highest-quality sources to accusations of abusive editing. Clarification on exactly how we are to determine these high-quality sources is welcomed, considering several editors previously indicated that MediaMatters was not a reliable source, and other editors in other places are now questioning WP:RS. If issues regarding similar sites are not clarified, WP:BLP becomes at best difficult to uphold, and at worst, moot. From the explanations given above, I am seeing that WP:ATT is leading us in a direction that will open the door to many shaky sources, even in BLPs. This seems contrary to the specific statements made by Jimbo: clarity is needed. Sandy (Talk) 13:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Then you cite your sources. 2 isn't relevent because it is dealt with by saying "according to Media Matters for America, <statement>. No parties not in interest have doubted the reliability of MMFA. JBKramer 13:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- The editors originally seeking help on Jossi's talk page per WP:BLP said that #2 was *not* easily dealt with: that the content was only available on MediaMatters, and that it couldn't be verified as complete, neutral or in context. In general, unless some clarity is provided about the new proposal being developed at WP:ATT, upholding WP:BLP opens editors applying the requirement for only the highest-quality sources to accusations of abusive editing. Clarification on exactly how we are to determine these high-quality sources is welcomed, considering several editors previously indicated that MediaMatters was not a reliable source, and other editors in other places are now questioning WP:RS. If issues regarding similar sites are not clarified, WP:BLP becomes at best difficult to uphold, and at worst, moot. From the explanations given above, I am seeing that WP:ATT is leading us in a direction that will open the door to many shaky sources, even in BLPs. This seems contrary to the specific statements made by Jimbo: clarity is needed. Sandy (Talk) 13:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- To add to this - sure, it's biased. So is National Review, The New Republic, [Mother Jones]], etc. We wouldn't (and shouldn't) hesitate to use them as reliable sources. Some would make the argument that the New York Times or Fox News are biased, too, but no one would hesitate to call them reliable, either. As long as we recognize the biases, there shouldn't be an issue. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Media Matters for America is clearly a biased Reliable Source. Blogs are not reliable because they are written by someguy. The website in question is written by Eric Alterman ph.D, Duncan B. Black ph.D, David Brock, Eric Burns (journalist), and others listed at their staf page, invalidating 3. Articles are signed (initials at the bottom), invalidating 1. 2 has no relevence to reliability. JBKramer 13:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
I think Media Matters normally qualifies as a reliable source, with the caveats that reliable source decisions occur on a case by case basis. IMHO, while clearly partisan and biased, Media Matters is not so extremist as to merit a blanket ban, although I would be uncomfortable using it to support exceptional claims. The major grey area with regard to Media Matters is its fact checking and editorial oversight -- it seems to have some, but I don't know the details.
In short, I would think Media Matters' hosted clips from the MSM are fine, provided that the linking editors are comfortable that the hosted videos don't violate copyright. Some of the editorials are inappropriate because they are editorials and therefore not appropriate sources, but that's a trickier issue. I would also question whether any individual "gotcha" post by Media Matters establishes notability of whatever the gotcha issue is, particularly if it wasn't picked up by a more mainstream source. Most challenging , the Sean Hannity article smacks of serious POV and battleground issues, but I don't think the reliable source policy will solve those problems in this case. TheronJ 13:39, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- On the issue of verification, ie signing the articles... of the pieces currently on the website, two are signed SMM... I assume this is Simon Maloy who they say "most recently worked for Kaplan Higher Education Online in New York as an editorial intern. He has been published in The Raw Story, a progressive news website. Maloy holds a bachelor's degree in history from Williams College and is a Senior Researcher at Media Matters for America." Hardly an expert. Another is signed RSK - I do not find anyone with these initials on their staff. Another is unsigned. So, perhaps the reliability will depend on who wrote the piece? I still say that any citation to this site should at minimum be attributed as an opinion, and not cited as fact. Blueboar 13:46, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- No. The site itself lends it's name and editorial reliability to it's peices. That one piece was authored by person z instead of person x is not relevent. I note your old argument, that the pieces were unsigned, has gone by the wayside - when you are proven mistaken, do you always adapt your arguments to leave your conclusion unchanged, or are you reevaluating? JBKramer 13:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Yes. I adapt if my conclusion still seems valid to me, and I reevaluate if not. In this case, I admit that (most of) the pieces are indeed signed (and that I was in error on that point), but am still not convinced that this meets the standards of WP:RS. In any case, I have given you my view, which is what you came here to ask... what you do with it is up to you. Blueboar 17:21, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- As I understood the issue when it was first raised on Jossi's talk page, the content was not available in *any* other source, mainstream or otherwise, so there was a clear issue of notability and "gotcha". I am also unclear in the conversation above if the implication is that, for example, we now consider National Review a reliable source. I have been working under the impression that such sites were not. Sandy (Talk) 13:51, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- The National Review is a reliable source, though as it is partisan, when it is used as a source, it should be noted - IE - "According to The National Review, <fact>. JBKramer 13:59, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. For further clarification, Arbustoo lists above several sources that he says are used on Michael Moore. Of those sources, National Review is the only one I know: can you elucidate which of those would or would not be reliable sources, comparing and contrasting them to National Review, to help clarify why some partisan sources are considered reliable, while others possibly not? And, I still have no answer as to the issue of insisting upon highest quality sources on BLPs, and where this leaves enforcement of WP:BLP. Clarification is still welcomed, as the only reason I happened into the Hannity article was a request for BLP clarification and help, which we are supposed to take seriously. Sandy (Talk) 14:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Sandy, responding to your WP:BLP question, let me give you a slew of answers:
- Whether a given source is reliable in a given context is very much up to community consensus within the limitations of policy. You seem to be doing exactly the right thing in asking for additional opinions to get some outside input in the dispute between you and Arbustoo. As far as I can tell, consensus seems to be emerging that in the specific example offered (a Media Matters article pointing out that Sean Hannity inaccurately referred to a hyper-right-wing protest group as "left wing", plus a MM hosted video of Hannity's statement[4]) is reliable enough an that MM generally meets WP:RS minimum standards. Assuming that I've got the ultimate consensus broadly right, I hope that you and Arbustoo are able to take it and work together to improve the Hannity article.
- Wikipedia's reliable source guideline and biography of living person policy are separate things, and a page that concentrates excessively on relatively trivial negative information can violate WP:BLP and Wikipedia:Attack page even if it's sources are all reliable. (See, for example the emerging decision in an arbitration regarding Rachel Marsden).
- As I've said above, I have serious questions about the Hannity page. I think the citation in question is fine with regard to WP:RS, but I wonder if every time Hannity says something wrong, that's notable. I also wonder whether the page as written complies with WP:BLP, Wikipedia:Attack page, and undue weight. You and Arbustoo are both good editors, so I would suggest that the two of you take a look at the Rachel Marsden arbitration, then try to come up with a constructive way to improve the Hannity page. If that fails, there are a variety of dispute resolution procedures available.
- Good luck to both of you, TheronJ 14:29, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Sandy, responding to your WP:BLP question, let me give you a slew of answers:
- If you provide me a list of articles, I will tell you which can be used to the truth of an assertion without attribution (Wall Street Journal/New York Times News Pages), with attribution (WSJ/NYT Editorial Pages), and never (www.someguysblog.com). JBKramer 14:14, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I see him listing The Indianapolis Star. It is always a reliable source, and does not require attribution, except for it's editorial page. He also lists godhatesamerica.com, which is not a reliable source and should not be used to the truth of an assertion, except to source the position or statements of godhatesamerica.com, or whoever owns it, in an article about, or very closely related to, godhatesamerica.com. JBKramer 14:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. DaveKopel.com - unnaceptabe, some guys blog, Moorewatch.com - unnaceptabe, some guys blog, SpinSanity.com - unnaceptabe, some guys blog, Nationalreview.com, acceptable with attribution, HardyLaw.net, unnaceptable, some guys blog. JBKramer 14:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- On Kopel and Hardy in particular, they have a published book which could/should probably work as a filler for most of it. Our hatred of blogs is one of the major problems with our RS guideline, however. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:35, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Oh, I see. DaveKopel.com - unnaceptabe, some guys blog, Moorewatch.com - unnaceptabe, some guys blog, SpinSanity.com - unnaceptabe, some guys blog, Nationalreview.com, acceptable with attribution, HardyLaw.net, unnaceptable, some guys blog. JBKramer 14:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think that we all are missing an important point: Reliable sources is not a black and white thing. Context is needed. A source that may be reliable for A in articla X may not be reliable for B in article Z. For example, I do not see the use of Media Matters (or National Review as a source for George W. Bush, and rightly so. Same would apply for Lawton Foundation as a reliable source for Fidel Castro. The [WP:BLP]] policy tell us specifically about being cautious when using partisan sources in biographies, and we should. The good judgement of editors, as well being responsible editors, is also needed. POV warriors would excericies POV pushing regardeless of how many guidelines and policies we have in Wikipedia. In Spanish we say "Hecha la ley, hecha la trampa", meaning "Make a law, and you have made a way to break it." ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 14:16, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- tell us specifically about being cautious when using partisan sources in biographies, and we should Which is how I interpreted the application of BLP on Hannity, particularly since other editors stated the information was not available in any other source, mainstream or otherwise. Have to go now, but this area needs to be better clarified: editors attempting to help uphold the strong requirements in BLP should not be continually accused of abusive editing. Sandy (Talk) 14:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- Somehow I seem to have been a crusader for BLP but have never ran into that problem. Perhaps it's because I don't only focus on removing things that don't reflect my POV? JBKramer 14:31, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- tell us specifically about being cautious when using partisan sources in biographies, and we should Which is how I interpreted the application of BLP on Hannity, particularly since other editors stated the information was not available in any other source, mainstream or otherwise. Have to go now, but this area needs to be better clarified: editors attempting to help uphold the strong requirements in BLP should not be continually accused of abusive editing. Sandy (Talk) 14:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree on the general, but disagree on the particulars. Both MMFA and NR would be good sources (that would require attribution) for articles about the popular reception of George W. Bush. This is a section of our biographies about living people that is typically weak, because the POV warriors often focus on ruining it. JBKramer 14:23, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- "Be cautious" doesn't mean "don't use." "Be cautious" simply means be careful how you use them. Any source can be protested as partisan or biased, so it's about proper use of the source. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:26, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I ten d to disagree with your position. As WP editors we need to excercise caution in BLPs for all the reasons stated in that policy. Wikipedia is not a place to amplify rumors, or to assasinate the character of living people. If there is material in partisan sources, these may be used, and if so with great caution and with full attributtion. One can argue that an Al Quaeda website is a reliable source for Al Quaeda viewpoints, but we do not use that website as a reliable source to add to George W. Bush a statement "According to Al Quaeda, George W. Bush is a war criminal." Even with full attribution, that kind of edit is not acceptable as per WP:BLP.≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I think we actually agree. No one's talking unreliable extremists here. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:30, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I ten d to disagree with your position. As WP editors we need to excercise caution in BLPs for all the reasons stated in that policy. Wikipedia is not a place to amplify rumors, or to assasinate the character of living people. If there is material in partisan sources, these may be used, and if so with great caution and with full attributtion. One can argue that an Al Quaeda website is a reliable source for Al Quaeda viewpoints, but we do not use that website as a reliable source to add to George W. Bush a statement "According to Al Quaeda, George W. Bush is a war criminal." Even with full attribution, that kind of edit is not acceptable as per WP:BLP.≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 15:13, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
- I agree as well; wikipedia is not the place for rumors. The discussion here is Media Matters; why can't it be used as a RS? If you are claiming that Media Matters consists of poor material that pushes rumors, please offer sources. Media Matters has been cited by many news outlets, such as MSNBC. Arbusto 18:57, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
(De-indenting) TheronJ, thanks so much for the most constructive information and the well wishes. Now that I understand that reliable sources isn't always black-and-white territory, I still have several questions about the important matter of reliable sources as they relate to BLPs — but first the necessities of clearing up a misrepresentation/misunderstanding.
You have wished me well in resolving issues on the Hannity article: apparently others have succeeded in casting me in a principle role in a drama in which my involvement can barely be described as minimal. I have little interest in Hannity: I am interesting in understanding how to protect living persons per WP:BLP. My interest in the Hannity article was a passing one, and the contentious talk page environment which exists on Hannity since JBKramer and Arbustoo have decided to reinstate the Media Matters information is not the sort of environment I'm interested in working with, though I appreciate your well wishes.
My (very limited) involvement in the Hannity article came about because I follow Jossi's talk page; he is an editor I respect, who was involved early on in BLP and has shed light on WP:BLP and WP:RS issues several times for me, over many months. Several Hannity editors approached Jossi about Media Matters as a reliable source, the tone on the talk page seemed congenial, and they all seemed legitimately interested in resolving BLP and RS issues, so I offered to help. I made a grand total of 2 meaningful edits to the article, and 8 other edits to clean up reference formatting, add cite tags, delete white space, clean up headings, and the usual sort of cleanup work I do on many articles. A contentious debate over MediaMatters has now evolved on Hannity, when consensus was against its use before this discussion, and is (as far as I can tell) still against it. Before this discussion, Kuzaar supported the use of MediaMatters; while EmmSeeMusic, Getaway, PTR, Jossi, and myself opined that its use wasn't appropriate, and Plange appeared to concur. There was consensus to delete the material; it was deleted. As far as I can tell, Arbustoo misunderstood or misstated the consensus which existed above, as he has misstated several issues regarding my edit history. Since this discussion, additional supporters have been Arbustoo, BJKramer, and badlydrawnjeff (I think); while Ramsquire and Blueboar have said Media Matters shouldn't be used, and other editors (such as yourself, TheronJ) have said it could be a reliable source, but questioned the notability of the issues being raised on Hannity, sourced to Media Matters. So, it still appears that consensus is against the use of the material; yet Arbustoo continues to accuse me of acting against consensus when I removed the material with clear consensus the first time. In other words, it still doesn't seem that WP:BLP has any teeth, nor does it appear that consensus is useful in determining if a source should be considered reliable for use in a BLP. So, I'm not sure I'm any clearer on how to enforce BLPs than I was before, but I'm definitely clear that I won't offer to help out again. From what I've seen on several BLP issues posted to the noticeboard, enforcement of highest quality sources isn't happening, while people attempting enforcement put themselves in harm's way.
My questions:
- I understand the WP:RS and WP:BLP are separate things, but they overlap in that BLP calls for being "very firm about high quality references". I'm sorry some of my questions overlap, and might be better placed at BLP, but I'm trying to understand the "highest quality sources" relative to reliable sources. I'm not seeing highest quality sources being used in practice, with respect to reliable sources, and this is a concern on BLPs. Still confused, but at least you've given me some direction for how to proceed in the future. I think (?) it roughly amounts to - no blogs, (some?) opinion may be used if it's attributed, and consensus for any other marginal sources.
- There is no agreement or consensus above as to enforcement of the highest quality sources on BLPs, and sources agreed by consensus not to be reliable are still being used. The consensus you mention about Media Matters is in the opposite direction of what I see, when accounting for everyone who participated in the discussion here and on other talk pages, including an editor who is traveling right now (PTR). I still don't know where this leaves BLP enforcement, other than contentious. I'm wondering why none of this is more clearly spelled out in some Wiki guideline, other than Jossi's hecha la ley, hecha la trampa.
- Arbustoo seems to have found his way to the Hannity article after I edited it; he has been upset since I reverted an edit in which he inaccurately attributed as a direct quote to a living person words never uttered by this person. I now understand that BLP enforcement is variable; is it correct that we must quote living persons accurately, and direct misquotes can be removed?
- If I am understanding correctly the commentary above, it is OK to use editorials, as long as they are attributed as opinion. Is this correct? I have seen many deletions of NYTimes and Wall Street Journal editorial statements—even when correctly attributed—from articles, and have probably deleted some myself, as I understood opinion was never acceptable: is this incorrect? Does it only apply to editorials of "high quality" (e.g.; New York Times)? Can others elaborate on circumstances when it is appropriate to include editorial opinions, and from what sources?
- Is it ever OK to use a personal letter to the editor from "Joe Bloe", printed in a local paper, as a source for criticism on a BLP? I've deleted those as non-reliable sources. Is it correct that "Joe Bloe's" letter to anytown newspaper doesn't carry the same "reliability" as a NYT or WSJ editorial, and shouldn't be used?
- When cleaning up the BLPs of *all* of the participants in election campaigns in the August primaries and current elections (not just "things that don't reflect my POV" as claimed by BJKramer), I am no longer clear if I did that correctly. Should I outright delete any content sourced to a blog (that's usually what I do, although I'm not always sure if something is a blog), or should I only remove the blog source and put a cite tag on the text, if the text is not highly defamatory, just unverified? Or do I outright delete anything sourced to a blog on a BLP (or anywhere else)?
- Are blogs from known "reliable" sources (e.g.; CBS News) ever allowed as reliable sources? I'm asking because I'm not sure what badlydrawnjeff meant by "Our hatred of blogs is one of the major problems with our RS guideline, however."
I think that's all my questions: in the future, when enforcing BLPs, I'll post all issues to the BLP noticeboard, and let some other brave person deal with them, so as not to become the target of false accusations. Thanks, Sandy (Talk) 02:05, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Sandy, I'll respond on your talk page. Thanks, TheronJ 03:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm just curious if anyone has a documented case of MM getting something wrong. Lot's of folks have it in for them; Bill O'Reilly openly hates them; so I imagine they're getting worked over pretty good. Has a case of unreliability popped up? That's not determinative; all newspapers have corrections sections. But, it would be helpful to know. It's kind of ironic in the context of this conversation that MM's stated purpose is to check the reliability of (conservative) media statements. Derex 09:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Proposal on Primary sources
I started a new proposal, Wikipedia:Use of primary sources in Wikipedia, relating to some of the recent and ongoing developments re. WP:RS, WP:V, WP:ATT, etc. Comments and contributions welcome! --Francis Schonken 12:43, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Is Wired News a reliable source?
Hey gurus,
Can I get a judgment call on whether Wired News stories are likely to be reliable sources? The debate centers around a Wired News article regarding Clint Curtis. For the cite, see this diff, or the talk page starting here. Thanks, TheronJ 19:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- If it helps, Wired News apparently has a fact checking department, the head of which is able to get gigs teaching fact checking,[5] so I lean strongly towards baseline reliable. Thanks again, TheronJ 20:05, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- There is 0 doubt that Wired, a major magazine, is a reliable source. JBKramer 20:09, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- If you go to the New York Times web site and search on "Wired News" (include the double quotes) you will find numerous citations to Wired News articles. --Gerry Ashton 20:15, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Non English sources
I have got a question about non english sources. I am writing an article about Czech cross country skier Kateřina Neumannová. There are some English sources about her late career when she won olympics and maybe lists of results. But most of these sources will not provide any details and there will be no sources for her early carier when she did not belong among top ten. So most of my sources will be in Czech. How are these sources viewed. I ask especialy concerning potential peer-reviews as I hope that one day the article will get there (now it is just a mere stub). Having an in-line citation for every fact is a hard work and I will probably do not go through it, when peer reviewers will just say they do not understand cited newpaper. --Jan Smolik 21:50, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- This article is an adjuct to Verifiability. If the information is verifiable from a foreign language than it is verifiable. The only question is if the sources are reliable and if they are major media, respected sports statistics generators, etc, then the answer is an unqualified yes without any regard to their language. SchmuckyTheCat 21:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- However, as this is the english version of Wikipedia, and (shamefully) most native english speakers (Englishmen, North Americans and Australians alike) do not speak other languages (and for those who do, Czech is unlikely)... if you can provide a translation for any of the material it would be appreciated. Also, if you include any quotations in the main text of the article, a translation should be a must (for authenticity and verification of the translation, I would also have the original Czech in a foot note with the citation). Blueboar 01:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for the replys, it is much clearer for me now. --Jan Smolik 13:17, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- However, as this is the english version of Wikipedia, and (shamefully) most native english speakers (Englishmen, North Americans and Australians alike) do not speak other languages (and for those who do, Czech is unlikely)... if you can provide a translation for any of the material it would be appreciated. Also, if you include any quotations in the main text of the article, a translation should be a must (for authenticity and verification of the translation, I would also have the original Czech in a foot note with the citation). Blueboar 01:35, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
What is enough to substantiate an "exceptional" claim?
I added the following text to the article on the German city of Treuenbrietzen.
During the last days of April and first days of May, 1945, Red Army soldiers executed approximately 1000 civilian inhabitants of the city, mostly men.[6] They were taken into the forest and shot. A memorial commemorates the fate of the 1000 civilians executed by the Red Army, as well as that of the 127 Italian POWs executed by the Wehrmacht.
I sourced it with two copies of the same article, used by two online newspapers. The one inserted in the text, and this one which I put in the external links, in case the one in the text stoped working, or vice versa.
- "Stadt ohne Männer" (the city without men) Der Tagesspiegel 21-06-2006 Template:De icon
All evidence of my edit were removed, with the explanation that: "for such stuff a more solid ref than an article in a popular press is required" diff 1, diff 2
I realise that the references might be borderline, since they are in German, and both point to the same article. I have however been unable to find an English article dealing with the subject. I am unsure if the references are good enough to source the claim, or if more/better sources are indeed necessary. So, any opinions, do I have any grounds for challenging the removal, or might I as well give up? --Stor stark7 Talk 19:45, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- A bare web reference is of marginal usefulness in any case, and suspect for an exceptional claim. A non-German speaker can't really tell the nature of the citation. The two websites apparently present exactly the same article. Where was the article published originally? Why does it appear on two different websites? Are the two websites affiliated? --Gerry Ashton 21:29, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- The newspaper seems a reasonably reliable source. Perhaps the statement can be voiced as an opinion of the newspaper, not voiced as a fact. Andries 21:36, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- The Chicago Manual of Style 14th ed. gives this example, in §15.228, for a footnote of a foreign-language journal article with a translated title:
- 27. W. Kern, "Waar verzamelde Pigafetta zijn Maleise woorden?" (Where did Pigafetta collect his Malaysian words?>, Tijdschrift voor Indische taal-, land-, en volkenkunde 78 (1938): 271-73.
- The Chicago Manual of Style 14th ed. gives this example, in §15.228, for a footnote of a foreign-language journal article with a translated title:
- I would write an equivalent footnote for the place the article originally came from, and then add something like this
- Reprinted in Potsdamer Neucote Nachrichten 21 October 2006, viewed 26 October 2006 at [7]. Also reprinted in Der Tagesspiegel online 21 October 2006 viewed 26 October 2006 at [8]
- --Gerry Ashton 22:06, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- Cite the original relevant German excerpt accompanied with an English translation. Andries 22:28, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
- I would write an equivalent footnote for the place the article originally came from, and then add something like this
- OK, I'll give it a shot and see what hapens... thanks for the suggestions. --Stor stark7 Talk 16:00, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
DISPUTED-tag
hello? where is the discussion? i'm lost. please help me. outside, there was - like this big sign saying that something is disputed here, and there is a discussion? can you help me? it would be very nice.-- ExpImptalkcon 20:51, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- There is a fair bit of discussion above, probably under a section heading entitled "Guideline" or "Essay vs. guideline" or something like that (can't check right now as I'm editing the article (-: ) I don't think we ever came to an agreement so the disputed tag is still here. If anyone can suggest a way of moving forward, that would be cool, but it's kind of hard to do so because several people (myself included) want to junk the guideline completely while others want to keep it as-is. JYolkowski // talk 20:58, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
- thanks, but reading that was not satifying. i think "We need sources for any edit that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and for quotations. Period." is really all you need to say. isn't it?-- ExpImptalkcon 00:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- No. Because some sources are better than others; and some sources are completely unreliable. For example, I might state that "atomic radiation is good for one's sex life" on my personal webpage. However, since I am not an expert in the field of atomic radiation (I am not even a scientist) you should not use my statement to back such a claim in any wikipedia article. Blueboar 00:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- But i can use your statement to back up the claim "Blueboar believes atomic radiation is good for one's sex life". Thats all we need, or am i missing s/th here? I don't care if you are a scientist or not, i care for a source... And i beg to differ that "some sources are better than others". -- ExpImptalkcon 13:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- ok, granted, we can't include your view into the article on Ionizing radiation, we need something to distinguish sources as to their reliability. but, i believe the most straightforward way to solve that problem is searching for multiple sources: if two independent publications claim s/th it seems to have at most a marginal probability of being outright fabrication.-- ExpImptalkcon 14:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- And precisely what do you think should be the standard for verifying that two publications that claim the same thing are actually "independent"? In my experience, so-called independent publications very often repeat each other's claims without deigning to spend any effort on independent verification.—DCGeist 06:56, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- ok, granted, we can't include your view into the article on Ionizing radiation, we need something to distinguish sources as to their reliability. but, i believe the most straightforward way to solve that problem is searching for multiple sources: if two independent publications claim s/th it seems to have at most a marginal probability of being outright fabrication.-- ExpImptalkcon 14:20, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- But i can use your statement to back up the claim "Blueboar believes atomic radiation is good for one's sex life". Thats all we need, or am i missing s/th here? I don't care if you are a scientist or not, i care for a source... And i beg to differ that "some sources are better than others". -- ExpImptalkcon 13:50, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- See the proposal at WP:ATT. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:41, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- No. Because some sources are better than others; and some sources are completely unreliable. For example, I might state that "atomic radiation is good for one's sex life" on my personal webpage. However, since I am not an expert in the field of atomic radiation (I am not even a scientist) you should not use my statement to back such a claim in any wikipedia article. Blueboar 00:40, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
- thanks, but reading that was not satifying. i think "We need sources for any edit that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and for quotations. Period." is really all you need to say. isn't it?-- ExpImptalkcon 00:05, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
From WP:V: This page does not say some things that could well be said; there are whole books on source criticism out there. There are some things I would say differently; that's true of most WP pages. But I join in the consensus which makes this a guideline, marked or not. Its opponents should remember the difference between {{guideline}}s and policy Septentrionalis 23:21, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
WikiIslam.org
i think it is abundantly clear from WP policy in general that wikis are not legitimate sources for citation (even self-citing can be dubious). it goes without saying that the same rule applies to WikiIslam.org (alternatively known as wiki.faithfreedom.org, a branch of faithfreedom.org). i have however run into a new editor who insists that removals of this non-notable website from being used as citations (and external links, for that matter) in articles is merely a Muslim conspiracy against him (even though non-Muslim editors have also objected to his wiki advertising) and his wiki website under which he edits extensively as "Whale". because of this, he ardently refuses to accept any citation of policy that i provide for him, claiming that the WP:RS and WP:V actually allow for its use. just to ensure that my sanity has not escaped me, could i get some more opinions on the usability of wikiislam (most importantly) as a citation for assertions in articles? ITAQALLAH 19:12, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Your sanity is fine. Wikis are not reliable for many reasons. Note that this is not the same as providing a wikilink ... that is fine (and, in fact, encouraged). but as a citation... definitely not. Blueboar 19:34, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- OK... I have recieved a related question on my talk page that I want to pass by the entire WP:RS editing group... What about linking another (non-wikipedia) wiki in the "External Links" section of an article? My normally strict reading of the guideline says no, links to unreliable sources should never be used ... but I do see the possible argument that links in the "External Links" section might be different, as they is not being used as a source for any particular statement, but simply as links to related sites with further information on the topic. What say you? Blueboar 21:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Blueboar, thanks for your message on Bhaisaab's talk page. I believe that yes it is acceptable to include a link to an external wiki on the 'External Links' section of a WP article. It cannot be denied that external wiki websites are excellent sources of information, because like Wikipedia they are continuously edited and made better by its editing community. To demonstrate this to others, I'll give the same example to others which I gave to you:
- If there's an article on Guitars on WP, there's nothing wrong with including a link to an external website such as GuitarWiki.com on the 'External Links' section of a WP article. I don’t think anyone will disagree with me here. If you do, please explain why its not acceptable to include a link for GuitarWiki.com on a page on Wikipedia that is about Guitars.
- Further, I have read WP:RS where it states that even as a cite source, Wikis may be used a source, as long as they are not self-published sources. But here we are not even talking about cite sources - we're talking about a link in the 'External Links' section where the reader may go for more information on the subject.
- I believe my Guitar example is sufficient to make this point.
- thanks
- --JohnsAr 21:58, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'd agree with your reading of WP:EL, Blogs and wikis are not acceptable as external links.ALR 22:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- JohnsAr, the policy you're citing actually states the exact opposite: "Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as sources...For exceptions, see the section on self-published sources."
- So if we look at the self-published sources section we find the following: "Exceptions to this may be when a well-known, professional researcher writing within their field of expertise, or a well-known professional journalist, has produced self-published material..." What does this have anything to do with W.I.?
- If we look at the policy regarding external links, WP:EL, we find that it states "An article can link to pages that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article." W.I. is certainly not in anyway neutral nor accurate. We further find we should avoid pages that "contain factually inaccurate material or unverified original research, as detailed in Wikipedia:Reliable sources." Wikis have no control mechanism to stop original research from being inserted into articles. BhaiSaab talk 22:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- I'd agree with your reading of WP:EL, Blogs and wikis are not acceptable as external links.ALR 22:27, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
<indent reset>
This is John. Please note that external wiki links already exist on hundreds of WikiPedia articles. To those who think external wikis should not be allowed as links on Wikipedia, please justify the following evidence:
This Wikipedia article on Feathered dinosaurs lists the following external wiki article on its External links:
227 more mentions of this external wiki on Wikipedia on Google
These Wikipedia articles on Varactyl, Deak and Opee Sea Killer link the following external wiki on their External Links pages:
Here are 35 more mentions of this external wiki on Google
Need I go on?
American Petroleum Institute links to the following external wiki:
131 MORE mentions of this external wiki on Wikipedia on Google
These are just a handful of examples I was able to gather where external wikis have been linked on articles on Wikipedia. They're usually found in the External Links section.
To those who are saying that wikis should be included as External Links, lets first start taking out all the hundreds of existing links on Wikipedia to external wikis so we can make sure this policy is followed consistently. What do you say?
Though external wikis change more frequently than regular websites, they are excellent sources of information because of this same reason. Hence, people include external wiki links all over Wikipedia and I have given ample evidence of this happening.
The protestors who are making this complaint (Itaqullah, BhaiSaab and others), are doing so because the wiki in question (WikiIslam.org) does not coincide with their opinions on controversial issues of religion. It must be mentioned that these articles naturally already contain links for many external websites which state their differing and opposite opinion on these controversial religious issues.
As to BhaiSaab protesting that "An article can link to pages that contain neutral and accurate material not already in the article.", I would ask him: Are other links on the Islam articles neutral? Frequently, they are not and thats ok - the issues being discussed are controversial and people have widely differing opinions and these are reflected by the links they insert into WP. That is okay. Do the articles not contain information already present in the WP article? Yes, they do partially. Some information can be found on more than one websites and thats ok too. Its impossible to cite a website which doesnt have some information common. So, please don’t apply a policy to WikiIslam.org, that does not apply to other external links already existing on Wikipedia.
Regards to BhaiSaab quoting WP:RS: "well-known, professional researcher writing within their field of expertise", I would ask others: Are OTHER external links given on articles about Islam written by "well-known professional researchers" ? No they are not. Again, please don’t apply a policy to WikiIslam which does not apply to other already existing external links on WP articles.
In summary: - WikiPedia.org articles already contain hundreds of links to external wikis, the evidence for which I have provided. - Thus, it is not a surprise that linking to external wikis is not against Wikipedia's policy at WP:RS which states that wikis can be reliable sources as long as they are not self-published sources. However again, I am not even defending wikis to be used as Citing sources - they should not be. But it is acceptable to link them in the External Links section, just like many of the external wikis already being linked on Wikipedia.org. They too are not self-published sources and WikiIslam.org also follows this guideline. WikiIslam.org is just one of the many websites linked on WP that have opinions critical of Islam. There is nothing special about it in any other way, except that its a wiki website. And like I said, there are already hundreds of existing links to external wikis on Wikipedia.org.
Now, is there any one else who says links for external Wikis should not be included in External Links? If so, please start by taking out the existing hundreds of links on Wikipedia to external wikis and I'll join your effort as well so we can make sure this "policy" is implemented fairly. You would also have to prove that those wikis already linked are not self-published sources and are not being written by professional well-known researchers'.
Can this debate be finalized or do we need more intervention?
thank you --JohnsAr 23:33, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- You'll have to see the logical fallacy at negative proof. It is up to you to prove that this wiki is written by professional well-known researchers. The existence of other wiki links is certainly not a reason to continue contravening policy when it is obvious in this case; see appeal to tradition. BhaiSaab talk 23:40, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- "...states that wikis can be reliable sources as long as they are not self-published sources" Where? BhaiSaab talk 23:49, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- Self-published sources are not acceptable as sources[9]. The present external wiki links do not contravene policy as they are not self-published sources.
- It is not against wiki policy to include external wikis in External Links. Thus its no surprise that there are hundreds of existing links to external wikis on Wikipedia.
- The fact that the wiki in question does not coincide with your religious views, is obviously no reason for you to propose that it should not be linked.
- --JohnsAr 23:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- You seem to be saying that everything that isn't self-published is necessarily a reliable source while at the same time ignoring this very clear policy statement: "Posts to bulletin boards, Usenet, and wikis, or messages left on blogs, should not be used as sources." BhaiSaab talk 00:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- --JohnsAr 23:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
- In the same paragraph it says "For exceptions, see the section on self-published sources." Also, please do not forget the hundreds of existing links on Wikipedia to external wikis.
- Explain why the external wiki site linked on Opee Sea Killer should not be there.
- --JohnsAr 00:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- So basically, you're interpreting the policy like this: "Although there is a statement that clearly states wikis are not to be used as sources, the other sentence in the same section indicates that wikis are not self-published sources. Hence, this policy contradicts itself and wikis are allowed."
- Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. The exceptions, as I've noted above, have nothing to do with wikis. BhaiSaab talk 00:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- --JohnsAr 00:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- They do. Read the whole article on WP:RS. I gave you link already. So you are unable to explain why the external wiki on Opee Sea Killer should not be linked. --JohnsAr 00:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thats my point, the link to the external wiki in Opee Sea Killer (and hundreds of other links to external wikis on WikiPedia) is not against policy (WP:RS) as it is not self-published. Why have those links not been removed? Because its not against policy. We're going in circles. I will wait for more people to respond to this. --JohnsAr 00:27, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
(unindent) One can argue that when a person writes a passage, and that unchanged passage is published with no review by any other person (as on a wiki), the passage is self-published. Since the paragraph that says not to use wikis refers to the self-published section for exceptions, the Reliable sources guideline apparently considers wikis to either be self-published, or functionally equivalent to self-published works. --Gerry Ashton 01:05, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Hi Gerry, thanks for responding to this issue. Infact material on wikis is frequently reviewed by other people and edited by the community. Thats why Wikis are excellent sources of information because they are continually improved. The Policy page WP:RS also mentions to use commonsense while applying the guidelines. Further and most importantly, when 100's of articles on Wikipedia already contain links to external wikis (I provided evidence above), I cannot see any reason for the original complaint by ItaqAllah and BhaiSaab.
- Is there anything wrong with including a link to an external wiki, in the External Links section?
- If so, what justification can be given to support the assertion that the existing external wiki link present right now on Opee Sea Killer should be taken out?
- As I said wikis are excellent sources of information. No wonder everyone else in Wikipedia uses them as links in other articles. One might say that I should assume good faith, but in this case it is obvious that the complainants ItaqAllah and BhaiSaab are only opposed to linking WikiIslam because its against their religious views. This is another of their attempt to censor content on WikiPedia. It is clear that had I included a link to IslamPedia, a pro-Islamic website, we would not have seen a protest by anyone. Articles on Islam already contain links to many websites which are critical of Islam and WikiIslam is just one of them.
- Again, if anyone thinks external wikis should not be linked, lets please start by first taking out the hundreds of already existing links to external wikis on WikiPedia.
- A wiki is just another website. No one is saying that its ok to cite sources (using ref tags and such, where statements are being refered to) from a wiki therefore the concern that "a wiki may change anytime so it should not be cited" is only applying to statements made on the Wiki quoted with "Ref" tags where statements are being quoted. But there is nothing wrong with linking to an external wiki in the External Links section. Thats why we have 100's of existing external wiki links on WikiPedia.org
- I cant understand the big commotion ItaqAllah and BhaiSaab have put up, when external wikis are already being linked on WikiPedia in large numbers. Also, common sense says there is nothing wrong in linking a wiki in the External links section.
- --JohnsAr 01:29, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- JohnsAr - First, You will find that the "but lots of other articles do it" argument holds very little water here... my reply to that is: lots of other articles are wrong. Also, to publish a link to WP:RS on the talk page for WP:RS is a bit silly... we (those who regularly edit this page) know what the guideline says and means... we wrote it!
- The intent of this section is that Wikis are NOT acceptable as sources, ever. The exceptions clause is for self-published works. Now Gerry has pushed the envelope and said that you could consider a wiki to be a form of self published work. But even if one considers Wikis to be equivilant to self published works, they would have to be demonstratably written by noted experts to be usable as sources.
- More importantly, the ban on wikis is repeated (clearly) at WP:V (see [WP:V#Self-published_sources_.28online_and_paper.29 here] - That is a POLICY page and can not be wiggled around no matter how much you argue.
- About the ONLY argument that one could make to allow links to wikis is the one I asked about at the start of this discussion: That such links placed in the "external links" section are not being used as "sources" but simply as a way to say "for further information, see...". I do not think that is a good argument, but it is at least arguable. Face it, you are wrong on this one. Blueboar 01:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- BlueBoar, that is exactly what I have been saying all along: "such links placed in the "external links" section are not being used as "sources" but simply as a way to say "for further information, see..."."
- This is why we have 100's of other external wiki links. They are all being used as "For further information, see...". WikiIslam is not an exception.
- --JohnsAr 01:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Wikiislam part II
- OK... that is indeed a different issue. Here is the argument for and against as I see them...
- For: As said, the links in the "External Links" section are not being used as sources but simply as "further information". So WP:RS may not fully apply. I see this as being somewhat analoguous to how, while we do not allow wikipedia to be used as source for citations in articles, we do allow a list of "See Also" links to other related wikipedia articles. An "External Links" section sort of follows the same idea but for non-wikipedia pages.
- Against: Both WP:RS and WP:V make a point of listing wikis as things that are unreliable and not to be used. Any link is in some way a source, perhaps not for a specific statement, but for information. If the information is not reliable (and it is clear that the policy is that wikis are not reliable) it should not be included in wikipedia. Even as a "For further information" link.
- OK... I have said my peace. Let's let others speak. Blueboar 02:36, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- OK... that is indeed a different issue. Here is the argument for and against as I see them...
- Keep in mind that if we decide against including external wiki links on External Links, I will ask permission of SysOps (you, if you are one and others as well) to start deleting all external wiki links on WP as this is against Wiki policy and the WP policy will also be changed to clearly state that external wikis are not allowed as links on WikiPedia in any shape, form or way.
- You have given good reasons for the "For" and they are reasonable.--JohnsAr 02:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- You don't need anyones permission to double away smartly and enforce the policy as it is currently interpreted. You quite reasonably point out that there are lots of articles where editors either do not understand the policy, or choose to ignore it for whatever purposes they might have. There are a relatively small number of people who are prepared to enforce the policies, partly because its a pretty reliable way to end up in conflict with other editors a lot of the time.
- In any case I would dispute your suggestion that consensus editing implies accuracy. The editing group is self selecting and in general there is no barrier to entry associated with knowledge and understanding of a topic. Wikipedia itself has a very clear problem related to this, where editorial control is subject to an essentially anarchic system whereby content can be included because its kewl and interesting to individuals, not because it has extensible interest, intrinsic value or accuracy.
- As to the point about an absolute rule, I'm not a fan of absolutes. Life is more complicated, particularly when you're talking about knowledge management. Some wikis might have a place, but that is very much the exception and needs considered carefully. A wiki with a gated entry policy clearly implies a greater degree of accuracy and reliability, but it is still lower than a peer reviewed article in a journal, or a published book. I'd suggest in any case that a wiki used for concept development is still subject to change as that concept itself develops and should be avoided until such time as the concept is finalised and published.
- ALR 09:11, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- ALR, I get your point and can agree with you that editing consensues doesnt imply accuracy. However, there is nothing wrong with including a link to a good article on an external wiki in "External Links" - Wikipedia policy does not say this. Like BlueBoar also said, we are all agreeing on not citing from wikis because they change all the time. But having a link on External Links is a separate debateable matter. For example, it makes perfect sense to include an external wiki link on Opee Sea Killer. Such a link is likely to include a lot of information as its a wiki. There is NO ONE here that has been able to give good reasons as to why that external link should not be there in Opee Sea Killer. Why should WikiIslam be an exception? You are right that linking to a wiki should be done when it has been developed more. WikiIslam is being developed and there are some great articles on it right now and they are being refined with time. Its only going to become better.
- To those who oppose the inclusion of an external wiki link, I ask: How is a static website better than an external wiki link? The latter infact has more refined content and higher quality because of continous editing. I believe its ridiculous for anyone to suggest that external wikis cannot be included in External Links.
- The fact is simple - Muslims are opposing the inclusion of an external wiki because it has great potential and is against their religious views. I have no doubt that WikiIslam will grow and become famous and editors like me are working hard to do this. Other people will start linking to it themselves and Muslims will not be able to stop it. This is a new site, which is why this has happened. I dont see anyone else opposing external wiki links here. Its not a matter of good faith but the fact is, Muslims have always attempted to censor any powerful criticism of Islam and this is what is what they are trying to do in this case as well. I will take this up with higher authorities later, if not now and will get this policy cleared with them of external wiki links.
- Also, I have no doubt that links from WikiIslam will eventually find their way in articles on Islam on WP. Muslims have always failed to censor content which is critical of Islam. Freedom of expression eventually and inevitably wins.
- --JohnsAr 12:55, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- You misinterpret my position, I don't believe that Wikis are in any way reliable without significant quality assurance process which provide gated entry, a barrier to entry based on expertise and competence in the topic, and rather more rigid constraints on information assurance than is available here in Wikipedia. There could be an argument that a sufficiently highly assured wiki could be included, but that should be dealt with on a case by case basis. My personal view is that the current position on Blogs and Wikis is too weak.
- I don't believe that any articles with wikis listed should continue to hald that position, but I have other things to do with my time than rake around and start arguments like this every time I do it. I have enough just keeping the cruft out of the article portfolio I do monitor.
- On the one hand you agree that consensus editing doesn't imply accuracy, you then turn round and say the opposite, the continual editing implies reliability. I have difficulty in reconciling your inconsistency in this.
- Content Managed websites may or may not be sufficiently reliable to be used as sources, but not always. What CM does is provide the authors of that site a method for assuring the integrity of the content, we need to assess the author to determine it's reliability and accuracy. Wikis and blogs have none of those controls.
- I would thank you to avoid political posturing in this debate, I am interested in the informational integrity of the corpus of material which is mitigated through a number of policies and guidelines, this being one of them.
- ALR 15:20, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- ALR, whatever it is - if WikiIslam is dismissed from Wikipedia as a link just because its a Wiki: I will make sure that, (1) WikiPedia updates its policy on external wiki links and states clearly and explicitly that external wiki links may not be used in any shape, way or form on WikiPedia. (2) The hundreds of external wiki links present right now on Wikipedia are taken out.
- If all wikis are unreliable and unreliable sources must not be used on WikiPedia, then all external wiki links should be taken out. The policy is not to apply only on WikiIslam. It is to be applied consistently to all wikis, while following clear guidelines.
- If an article from WikiIslam is dismissed because it doesnt cite its sources or is not reliable, thats another separate issue. The fact that its a wiki, should then not matter.
- --JohnsAr 15:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
i assume by JohnsAr's focusing on external linking that he has agreed that wikis may not be used for citation (and so will no longer be supporting edits like these). with regards to external linking, i generally don't agree with using wikis, especially if they are neither notable nor reputed for being a resource in that subject field, and certainly not when it is a vehicle for original research and unencyclopaedic, highly opinionated viewpoints. i don't believe that the majority of wikis would pass WP:EL (that includes John's website wikiislam.org which he edits frequently), the only real exception i can envisage is where the wiki linked to is both notable and reputable as a good resource for information, implements standards similar to Wikipedia, and would be considered acceptable for external linking in a featured article. those kind of wikis are extremely rare, which is why i don't believe the floodgates for generally accepting wiki external links should be opened. ITAQALLAH 07:42, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- These websites have no place in wikipedia whatsoever. Their goal is not doing an scholarly work but rather propaganda. --Aminz 09:17, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Both of you are Muslims and I dont find it surprising that you're opposing the including of WikiIslam. Like I said before, had I included Islampedia, a pro-Islamic wiki, we would have seen no protests of any kind at all. Now if people started included WikiIslam, you people are protesting. Aminz, you are wrong - there are great scholarly works on WikiIslam, for example the article on Aisha (the website is currently out of service but I'm sure you've seen it). Also to be noted was the page on Islam where its correct entymology was explained with different arabic words. This is a new website and its growing. Its potential is vast and you are aware of this.
- Muslims are opposing the inclusion of WikiIslam only because it is critical of Islam. This is a fact, not a matter of "assuming good faith". There are hundreds of other external wikis linked on WP right now. No one protested against those - why not? Its ridiculous to suggest that an external wiki website cant be linked in "External Links". Thats what that section is for and thats what it is being used for right now all over WikiPedia.
- --JohnsAr 12:33, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Johns, leave your accusations of POV bias for another forum (they do your argument no good, and are likely to turn fence sitters like me against your case) ... as far as we are concerned it does not matter if an editor is Muslem, Jewish, Christian, or Church of Bob. What matters here is reliablility of sources. Both Itaqallah and Aminz have been arguing their side of the issue from solid reasoning and their understanding of the guidelines and policy.
- A question for both sides: WP:EL contains the following line on what not to link - A page that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research, as detailed in Wikipedia:Reliable sources. How does this relate to external wikis in your view (both in general and in the case of wikiIslam specificly)?
- I know from my own experience here at wikipedia that keeping factually inaccurate material and unverified OR out of our articles is a never ending battle... and if we have trouble dealing with this, I doubt another wiki can do any better. This is another reason why I am leaning towards saying that wikis should never be linked. Would you comment please (and keep it civil). Blueboar 13:43, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not on either side, and not a big fan of the WP:EL guideline, but I would interpret "unverified original research" as new ideas that have not been verified by a suitable fact-checking process such as peer review or the processes used by reputable news publications. Ideally a wiki with policies similar to Wikipedia would not contain new ideas, only previously published ideas, but this ideal is not reliably achieved. --Gerry Ashton 13:59, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Hi BlueBoar, you are right "what matters here is reliablility of sources" (not the fact that its a wiki). As an example, see the article on Aisha at WikiIslam. It cites authentic hadiths and makes multiple references to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. These are both reliable sources on which the article is based on. The article is as 'reliable' as other articles critical of Islam on a regular website. As for you stressing on the importance of a website citing its source, I agree but I also ask: Do other websites listed as critical of Islam such as Faithfreedom.org and many others, also cite their sources? Are they being subjected to the same scrutiny? They should and they also cite their sources. Only good links should be linked on Wikipedia. The article on Aisha cites its sources - WikiIslam is meant to be a reliable source of knowledge about Islam and it is improving itself daily. All of us editors are constantly trying to improve articles and include references. In the past subjective material has even been deleted on WikiIslam, even though it was critical of Islam. So again, there are many good articles on WikiIslam such as the one on Aisha, which is a masterpiece and even more improvements are planned for this article such as dealing with arguments of different types against the issue.
- WikiIslam has just started, I mean - people have seen nothing yet. I linked the Aisha article on the Aisha page over here and the link was taken out by others without any reason, when infact the article cites its source very well. WikiIslam also has templates created for citing sources, infact we plan to include extra edit buttons at the top of the edit box just for that purpose. This shows just part of our commitment to creating reliable well-sourced articles on WikiIslam. There is no doubt that as we edit the website with time, it will improve daily just like WikiPedia - such is the advantage of having such a wiki website.
- I have no problem with anyone taking out an article link because its not well-sourced.
- --JohnsAr 15:30, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
<reset indent>
i detailed above what i interpret a suitable wikilink to be... although even then the problem of factually dubious information or original research persists. maybe something more akin to Larry Sanger's project (citizendium) would be suitable? you don't find websites based on that kind of model frequently, if at all, so perhaps it's merely an exceptional instance. in general, then, i agree with Blueboar.
how the clause relates to wikiislam? well i detailed at the beginning of the section that it seems to be a project started by users on the 'faithfreedom.org' forum, incidently their base for collaborating on articles on wikiislam.org (also hosted under the domain wiki.faithfreedom.org). i don't believe that the wiki is committed to providing accurate, scholarly and verified material (as would be expect under WP:RS) per having looked at the articles in general (problems related to style, referencing, verification, a lot of material copy-pasted from unreliable websites etc) and at a few FFI posts ([10] [11] [12] [13]; 'Whale' = User:JohnsAr). these points suggest to me that it is unlikely that one would see material adhering to the general standards outlined in WP:EL (and subsequently WP:RS). a number of wikis, whatever their ideological, political, religious etc. leaning will no doubt be of the same essence as wikiislam, in that it will be a vehicle for opinion without regard for academic standards, and they in the same way as wikiislam are not really suitable for being used as external links in my opinion. ITAQALLAH 14:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- ItaqAllah,
- FaithFreedom.org is already linked on many places on WikiPedia. Infact there's a whole article on the author of the website Ali Sina. If you are dismissing WikiIslam just because its a branch of FaithFreedom.org, you must also dismiss FaithFreedom.org. As far as citing sources are concerned, there are a number of good articles on WikiIslam such as the one on Aisha. This article cites its sources well and has no reason not to be included on Aisha's age at marriage.
- To make your point of excluding WikiIslam, you will have to work hard at disqualifying all present hundreds of external wiki links on WP. You cant just apply the exclusion principle to WikiIslam. Only two things can happen:
- 1) A good well-sourced article on WikiIslam is accepted as a link (among many other links critical of Islam already present on articles on Islam).
- OR
- 2) Wiki Policy is updated to disqualify external wikis as links in any way and hundreds of external wiki links present on WikiPedia are taken out from Wikipedia.
- I dont see (2) happening, so good luck.
- --JohnsAr 15:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- take a look at WP:EL and WP:OR. faithfreedom.org becomes a usable primary source on Ali Sina for telling us about itself (i.e. FFI and Mr. Sina). needless to say: wikiislam is a wiki, FFI is not. FFI is notable, wikiislam is not. FFI is not reputed for factual accuracy or verifiability, and neither is wikiislam. FFI is only ever included anywhere to balance out POV weightage in external links (or to attribute a statement to Sina) - something wikiislam is not needed for. that the forum posts convey nothing but a lack of interest for factual accuracy and encyclopedic quality (and this is reflected in your articles), focusing mainly upon rehashing polemic and encouraging members to insert their own original research, shows that wikiislam doesn't really conform to what would be expected of an external link. that FFI itself isn't committed to factual accuracy, verifiability (and is not a reliable source) etc. suggests that its brainchild will be no different. all that merged together with the lack of credibility assigned to wikis in general, and you have a rather hideous picture.. ITAQALLAH 16:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- re the parading of this "Aisha" article: it is a sludge of original research. it illustrates exactly how you're not understanding what scholarly material actually is. you said "you will have to work hard at disqualifying all present hundreds of external wiki links on WP", i think ALR's response to that was astute. i will not be responding to you further to allow others to present their views. ITAQALLAH 16:37, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- ItaqAllah, now you're changing arguments. Where is your original argument from which you started this discussion by saying "WP policy in general that wikis are not legitimate sources for citation" ?
- First we must settle whether its ok to include external wiki links in "External Links" or not. After that we can determine whether its ok to cite a certain WikiIslam article because its not well sourced - which is a completely different argument.
- Now, is there any reason to disqualify WikiIslam to be linked on WP, just because its a wiki? This has to be settled first.
- --JohnsAr 16:53, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
Given what I am being told about the site's history and unreliability of information, I think my initial impression was correct ... WikiIslam should NOT be used as a source, and should NOT be listed as an "External Link" either. And yes, Johns, that does mean that 100s of articles here are linking to wikis incorrectly and should be changed. I doubt you will accept my reasoning... but you asked for a neutral opinion and I gave it to you after hearing from both sides. Unless someone else (ie not JohnsAr or Itaqalla) has anything to say, that should close the matter. If you want to keep fighting about it, do so else-where please. In any case For me the discussion is over. Thanks for listening. Blueboar 17:03, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- (1) NO ONE said a wiki should be used as a cite source so please dont mention that again. The 'External Links' section is a separate issue. (2) If you think the hundreds of links to external wikis should be taken out, then Wiki policy must be changed to completely and explictly ban external wiki links without exception. (3) The article I linked on Aisha from WikiIslam is not unreliable. Did you read the article? It has genuine hadith citations and links to official websites for DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders).
- Yes, lets wait for others to respond. I will take this matter to higher authorities if one of the 2 conditions I mentioned in bold above to ItaqAllah are not met, which in summary are: If there's a good article on WikiIslam, there's nothing wrong in linking it. Either that, or alter WP policy to fully ban external wikis from WP and start taking out all external wiki links.--JohnsAr 17:23, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Take it to whoever you want. I'm done. Blueboar 18:06, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Whilst use of links as externals to amplify or illuminate articles may be subject to a lower level of specificity with regard to their contribution to the article one would infer from their placement that they comply with the same, or very similar, levels of confidence as citations. With that in mind one would not have carte blanche to insert material as an external link because it doesn't have the degree of reliability that a citation is held to, which appears to be what you are arguing for.
- Given that position, and the current policy, then wikis and blogs are not reliable as either sources or external links. I'm not convinced that the policy and associated guidelines needs to be more specific than that but you are at liberty to suggest that it becomes so, in the appropriate places. If you manage to achieve that then it becomes incumbent on every editor to uphold the policies and remove non-compliant links, so you'll have to promote that more explicit reference in a number of places on Wikipedia.
- Have fun.
- ALR 18:28, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Its utterly ridiculous to group Wikis and blogs together. A blog is a personal site which is usually for "rants" and subjective opinions of a single user. A wiki is a community-edited and refined website and thus vastly different from a blog.
- I will plan this now that I have seen this scenario and will see later if I can get external wiki banned from linking in WP - either that or WikiIslam will be back, the latter being more probable, you can count on it. Its impossible to take our external wiki links - no sane unbiased person will agree to it as I see it, hence I told the Muslim ItaqAllah that its not probable that external wiki links will be banned and hence to be sure, WikiIslam will be back. Even now I believe Muslims can have a hard time taking out these links - their argument is weak, because wikis are already being linked and there is NO strict policy against using Wikis in external links. If external wikis will not be banned, WikiIslam can be linked. In the mean time me and other editors will continue the refine the material on WikiIslam and there's no doubt its links will eventually find their way into articles 'protected' by Muslims. Yes, do I see anyone ELSE protesting about including of a wiki website? Right. Dont anyone give me that "Assume Good faith" stuff then. No one in their right unbiased mind would ban external wiki links and I'll see to it that this remains so. POV or whatever, the fact is - these are Muslims and they will do anything to silence a critic of Islam.
- Even this debate is a small victory for this new site WikiIslam because it has gotten the attention of people and there's bound to more as the site grows. Each of their attempt to silence the critics of Islam results in only the reverse happening.
- --JohnsAr 18:49, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- For the purposes of source reliability it is reasonable to group wikis and blogs, in fact wikis are worse from a reliability prespective, a blog might be inaccurate but it is, roughly, static. It becomes even more dififcult to meaningfully change it once a conversation thread is attached, since these threads are contextualised by the blog entry itself. A wiki is subject to constant fluidity of its content, and to appreciate that requires one to actually investigate it's life, rather than just accept whats on the page at a point in time.
- As with the others, I'm only really interested in this from the source reliability perspective, knowledge management is my line of work so you're getting my advice at a significant discount here (normally I charge about $2000 per day), and the general point is that wikis are insufficiently reliable or consistent to be useful to wikipedia.
- ALR 21:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- We can't group all wiki's together and make a single rule banning them all. We need to judge them based on current importance in their field of study. This can only be decided by a group discussion on the talk-page of the article. If your the only one who thinks it's "worthy" of being included then you need to back down and let it go... for now. That's how consensus works. But things change. There's no reason why you couldn't bring up the issue again at a latter date. But this page is about using Wiki's as a soruce in an article and not about includeing them in the "External Links" section. ---J.S (t|c) 19:38, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Here's the problem as far as "consensus" is concerned: The wiki being linked has religious views of one side of the editing team. It is critical of the religion in question. Thats why consensus among the editors is out of question. --JohnsAr 19:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- But see, bias on a website is ok. We don't require the sites we link too to be unbiased or NPOV. The main question, when evaluating an external link is: "Does this link provide useful and factual information about the subject that isn't already covered by wikipedia?" If the site is highly POV but makes a clear distinction between editorial content and factual content then it's likely to a good choice for a link. But, if the site is largely inaccurrate and tries to pass off editorial as fact then its not really going to be of much use to Wikipedia's audience.
- As for the second part... Consensus needs to be reached for inclusion, not exclusion. If no consensus can be reached the default solution is to not include it. WP:EL and WP:NOT both make it clear that our preferences is to exist with few external links with the preference being to include content on wikipedia.
- Please note I'm not taking a stance on "Wikiislam". I don't really know know enough about it to make a judgement. The above is simply my take on the related policy & guidelines. ---J.S (t|c) 20:50, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- I have two points, which I'll aggregate together here.
- I'd disagree that external links and sources are unrelated. If an external link is unreliable then it doesn't usefully illustrate or amplify on the article. It should be bound by the same general principles of reliability and accuracy with respect to the subject.
- One of the biggest issues with Wikis is that they're not stable, whlst the content may be factually accurate today, but tommorow it may no longer be so. If it's linked from an article then it is implicit that it meets the standards, but that cannot be assured without a responsible editor going back and checking for continuity at regular intervals, regularity being subject to the rate of change at the link. That's in addition to my concerns about general assurance on the wikis being linked to which are discussed upthread.
- ALR 21:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- Here's the problem as far as "consensus" is concerned: The wiki being linked has religious views of one side of the editing team. It is critical of the religion in question. Thats why consensus among the editors is out of question. --JohnsAr 19:56, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- WP:NPOV applies to articles, not external links. The policies that apply here are WP:V (Publicly edited wikis aren't reliable) and WP:NOT (Wikipedia is not a link farm). If the wiki is an important resource for further information about the subject, then it's appropriate. Otherwise we shouldn't be linking to it. I know many of the articles on the independent net-games link to Wikis in an appropriate manner. ---J.S (t|c) 20:58, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- JS wrote:
- "If the wiki is an important resource for further information about the subject, then it's appropriate".
- This is a reasonable policy but WP Policy doesnt state this explictly. I believe that the policy should have a section on "External Links" which makes this differentiation and allows wikis to be linked on External Links, as long as they are good sources of "further information". I believe too that it is ok to link wikis on External Links but not for citing in the article itself and this needs to be clearly stated in the current policy.
- This doesnt mean I'll start linking WikiIslam as soon as the policy is published. A link should not be made on External Links unless it provides good information on the related topic. In other words, for External Links, the same guidelines should be applied as for other websites as are applied for wiki websites. Citing websites in an article however is an exception - wikis cannot be allowed there, as wiki content changes from time to time. Like I stressed, this change is not of concern if the external wiki is included in External Links.
- --JohnsAr 01:01, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- We already have the policies in place to deal with bad/good websites. A guideline, like WP:RS, is here to help us apply those policies. The sentence you quoted from me is actually in fact backed up by policy, and no more policy is needed. ---J.S (t|c) 01:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm talking about WP:NOT ---J.S (t|c) 01:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. I couldnt find that policy anywhere that explicity says its ok to include wikis as sources if they are good sources. The people who initiated this discussion were refering to WP:RS and quoting that "wikis are not good sources of information". They have used that to rejecting linking to an external wiki even in the External Links. Is it mentioned anywhere that wikis can be included as External Links if they are good sources of information? --JohnsAr 01:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Ummm... No, wikis do make horable refrences. But you would need to talk about on the talk page of the article. This isn't the kind of thing we need to make a policy about. ---J.S (t|c) 02:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree, they do make honorable references which has been my point throughout this debate but the people who complained and started this discussion said wikis were not allowed. If there was a clear statement in a policy that wikis may be allowed as External Links if they contain good information, this case would be solved. I'm not saying we should change the policy just to support the inclusion of the wiki in question, but the policy should be such that it cannot be used in any way to disqualify legitimate links, like the complainants have tried to do in this case. We did talk on the Talk pages and it was not fruitful. Infact the complainants initiated this whole issue by first taking out the wiki link in question and then proceeded to say that Wikis are not acceptable as sources according to WP:RS. I believe like you and many people said, that they are acceptable in External Links, but not as Cite courses since their content keeps changing.
- How can we stop these people from disqualifying a wiki being used as an Ext. Link? Unless there is no authority presence to make a final decision here, it is for sure that we cannot get them to agree on including wiki links. I plan to look into starting a fresh debate at some point about altering the policy and atleast make the point explictly in the policy that it is OK to mention wikis as Ext Links, if they are good sources of information and that, wikis are subject to the same rules of quality as other statis websites are - as long as they are being used in the External Links.
- --JohnsAr 03:15, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Ummm... No, wikis do make horable refrences. But you would need to talk about on the talk page of the article. This isn't the kind of thing we need to make a policy about. ---J.S (t|c) 02:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks. I couldnt find that policy anywhere that explicity says its ok to include wikis as sources if they are good sources. The people who initiated this discussion were refering to WP:RS and quoting that "wikis are not good sources of information". They have used that to rejecting linking to an external wiki even in the External Links. Is it mentioned anywhere that wikis can be included as External Links if they are good sources of information? --JohnsAr 01:50, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm talking about WP:NOT ---J.S (t|c) 01:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- We already have the policies in place to deal with bad/good websites. A guideline, like WP:RS, is here to help us apply those policies. The sentence you quoted from me is actually in fact backed up by policy, and no more policy is needed. ---J.S (t|c) 01:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Take it to Dispute Resolution. WP:R3O, WP:RFC, WP:Mediation and then the final step: ArbCom. We need to try to keep policies as general as possible. But another thing to think about is.... if everyone is against the inclusion of a link... then perhaps there is a problem with it. Remember: No Wikipedia article needs an external links section. In fact, they are discouraged by policy. Explicitly allowing a class of link would be contrary to the philosophy. On the other hand, SOME external links are helpful. But I'd rather see the link left out of the article completely then see an edit war break out. ---J.S (t|c) 03:23, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- JS, thankyou for that. I will go through the process you mentioned at some point. In the meanwhile, we as editors of that wiki will be trying hard to improve the quality on that site so it will be a greater useful resource than it is right now. The vast majority of people opposing the inclusion of this wiki are those who dont agree with its views. That certainly is no reason to reject its inclusion. I will make the case in the process. Thanks again.
- To the Complainants who started this issue: I believe this case is closed for now. Certainly, including a good article on the wiki in External Links is not a violation of policy as has been stated by other users. Again this is supported by the fact that hundreds of wiki's are already linked on WP. It is not against policy. Like JS said, "If the wiki is an important resource for further information about the subject, then it's appropriate" (to link it). I myself will not include any links to that wiki for now but will leave others to link the wiki if they want to. At some point in the future, I will pursue this issue through the Arbitration process JS mentioned.
- --JohnsAr 04:24, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- You gotta take the steps in order. ArbCom slow and takes a lot of work to run (4 administrators, 1 clerk, and it can take months.) ... most of the time a dispute is resolved way befor ArbCom. ---J.S (t|c) 05:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks, yes I guess it will take time to resolve the issue as they must be very busy. I have copied your steps to my PC so I can refer to them when I need. --JohnsAr 05:11, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- You gotta take the steps in order. ArbCom slow and takes a lot of work to run (4 administrators, 1 clerk, and it can take months.) ... most of the time a dispute is resolved way befor ArbCom. ---J.S (t|c) 05:06, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
I have been using sources (1.) written by renowned academic scholars (2.)peer-reviewed and (3.) published by university presses. There is no, even one, academic encyclopedia which contains links to such websites. I will definitely consistently remove any such links, either from faithfreedom, or Islamophobe, etc etc. To my mind, they are all garbage no matter whether they are Muslim friendly or not. This is what I promise I'll do. There is almost no topic on which the academic scholars haven't written. --Aminz 10:25, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
YouTube 2
Currently there are about 11000 links from wikipedia to YouTube. Many of them are being used in articles about as sources. I added a note about avoiding YouTube... but perhapses there is a better way to say it or a better place to put it? There's a big discussion about this on WP:AN right now. ---J.S (t|c) 16:57, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- YouTube is not a reliable source for 99% of its content for two main reasons: (a) most material that may be useful to articles will be most probably copyvios; (b) it takes very little effort nowadays to alter a video, change the voiceover, etc. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 17:01, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree. In my small research sample I didn't find a single link to YouTube that was unquestionably acceptable. I only checked about 20, so it might not be representative. ---J.S (t|c) 17:54, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
- I likewise concur. I've also researched just a few of the links to YouTube and found lots of amateurish, ad prefixed clips that added nothing to the articles. I like the approach that a video clip, just like one's own website, should never be used unless it can be reliably verified by a third party as to copyright availability, content accuracy, and value to Wikipedia users. This would eliminate most of these links. I also believe that with the Google acquisition, YouTube may be placed under more control. However, what remains to be seen is how Google monetizes and exploits this high traffic media. YouTube may be used as another advertising scheme by some members who simply want to generate ad revenue using these clips. I've already seen Google Adsense ads on some YouTube pages and this will provide another motivation for spammers to place links on Wikipedia to drive traffic to their clips. Calltech 13:21, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
You must alos understand that many famous people or groups, such as Weird Al or Nintendo Wii, posted copies of commertials or music videos on youtube. So, even though there are other ways to find those videos, this is the best way for the averge person. You can't put as a sourse "The Nintendo wii advert that has been spotted on cartoon network and history channel during the hopurs of 1 am- 2 am on november 18"--68.192.188.142 19:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Reliable Sources in Political Election Campaigns
I think it was touched upon before, but I am seeking some clarification. I am of the opinion that including statements of campaign managers as if they were the statements of the candidates is - at best - misleading. Many campaign managers (and unidentifed 'staffers') are political operative who may not be speaking with the candidate's own words.
I think it best to weed them out of entries about the candidate they represent, relying instead on statements made by the candidate him/herself. This tends to be irrefutable, and would cut down the edit wars considerably, as they are rather contentious and diverting. While I understand that newspapers may quote aforementioned folk, it is also newspapers that finally endorse one candidate or another. WP does not - and should not - allow the same to happen here. Primary and secondary source allowances aside, the potential for abuse is enormous.
As well, there seems to be some discussion as to whether offline material regarding the candidate should be allowed if one can 'provide the source, author and page.' I think this view to be skewed and almost certainly lazy research. We live in an age where most information can be found readily online, so long as a little brain power is applied. After all, this is an online encyclopedia. Sources cited should be readily available online as well.
This becomes even more of a consideration when we consider that less than scrupulous folk can astroturf and viral-market propaganda in the form of a quoted, offline source. There are other problems with offline sources, and I am merely pointing out one aspect of the issue as it applies to current political campaigns. There is a color of authority that attends cited information, and a great many times (at least in political campaign entries), these sources are incorrectly attributed, paraphrased, or sometimes simply manufactured.
I would appreciate some insights into this matter. I am interested in learning how to approach these issues with sure knowledge, and not a gut feeling.Arcayne 00:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Statements to a campaign manager or other notable consultant working for a candidate can certainly by included in articles on the candidate they work for ... as long as they come from a reliable source. However, I would strongly suggest that such statements be attributed to the person making the statement (not just in a foot note, but in the main text... something along the lines of: "According to J.Q.Spinmeister, Congressman Doe's campaign manager, 'blah, blah blah blah' <ref>reputable source</ref>") Blueboar 13:40, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- The point about offline source is exactly backwards, however. Use of exclusively full-text-on-net (FUTON) sources, and thereby ignoring the wealth of offline sources, is generally the lazy research technique. Where an online and offline version both exist, the citation should allow either to be found. Some online versions become unavailable, or a fee is charged, after a time, while offline sources are usually available at the local free library.
- Much of the value of Wikipedia is the fact that it digests offline sources and makes the information contained in those sources available online. Attempting to limit Wikipedia to FUTON sourcs would be misguided. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:35, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- Can't disagree with you there. Both offline and online sources are of huge amounts of value. If an offline version exists we owe it to the reader to produce our citations in a way so the reader would be able to find the book in his/her library. We must also remember that at some point this encyclopedia may be published as an off-line resource (such as a CD or a paper version). In those cases simple links provide inadequate information and an offline citation would be better.
- So, what I'm trying to say is this: Ideally every citation should link online while also being verifiable offline. (But then again, we don't always get the ideal situation... so we gotta cite things the best we can) --J.S. 18:48, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
JSmith's recent BOLD edit
Reverted... actually some of the edits were quite good in my opinion, but taken as a lump I have to disagree. Some of them i definitely disagree with. For example, one of the things cut was the bit about Wikipedia itself (and by extension other wikis) not being a reliable source ... which I think is very important to include. May I suggest discussing each change one at a time? Blueboar 23:31, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
- It's actually in there. (My working copy is here if anyone doesn't want to check the history.) Check the "#Tertiary_Sources" section. I make a general plea not to use them, the general reason why and I even specifically mention Wikipedia under "examples" of bad sources. My list of "Unreliable Sources" indicators talks about "unstable content" as well. I'm was trying to make the entire format easy to read and it's intentions clearer. Concise means more people read it and more people will understand it. (That's why I removed the warning from the definition section...) Was there anything else you didn't like? Was there something in it I could make better? ---J.S (t|c) 23:42, 2 November 2006 (UTC)
Guideline or not?
We seem to once again be edit waring on the status of this page. Omegatron contends that there is consensus to demote this to an essay. I contend that there is consensus to keep it as a guideline (although I agree that it need work). One problem is that this debate is somewhat spread out... with those for demoting posting in one area and those for keeping posting in another. I know that "polls are evil"... but the only way to get a clear sense of how people are falling on the issue is to consolidate the debate. So... I am going to propose a poll. Please add your signature to which ever option you support (they are not mutually exclusive, so if you agree with more than one, add your name to any that apply). Add comments if you feel the need to do so, and feel free to add a new option if none of the ones I post reflect your oppinion. Thanks Blueboar 01:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Don't put words in my mouth.
- I never said that this should be labeled an essay; I would oppose anyone who tries to do so.
- I did not say there is "consensus to demote", either. That's a phrase that you invented that does not appear anywhere in Wikipedia policy.
- This page is simply not a guideline because there is not consensus for it. You don't need a "consensus to demote". That's not my opinion; that's the way Wikipedia policy works. The fact that you're taking a poll demonstrates that there's no consensus. After you've achieved consensus (which consists of discussing what's wrong with the page, not taking a poll to see if your favored plurality can force everyone else into submission), then you can put the guideline tag back on. In the meantime, the disputed tag should be the only thing there. You can't have a "disputed guideline". It's not possible. You can have a guideline or you can have a page whose status is disputed. They are mutually exclusive.
- I'm not even debating the merits of this page. I'm not even that familiar with it. I'm just looking at the talk page and seeing a profound lack of consensus. Almost everyone here agrees that the page requires a major rewrite. Until that happens, and most of the people here agree with the result, the guideline tag comes off.
- Those of you voting need to brush up on how Wikipedia works. Start here:
A guideline is any page that is: (1) actionable and (2) authorized by consensus. ... People are sometimes tempted to call a vote on a guideline, but this is a bad idea because it polarizes the issue (see Voting is evil for details). Instead, a guideline is made by listening to objections and resolving them.
Wikipedia works by building consensus. This is done through polite discussion and negotiation, in an attempt to develop a consensus. If we find that a particular consensus happens often, we write it down as a guideline, to save people the time having to discuss the same principles over and over.
- Consensus comes first. Then a guideline tag. — Omegatron 14:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not a huge fan of polls but maybe this'll be a quick way of seeing where everyone stands and help us move forward. JYolkowski // talk 01:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Omegatron, my appologies if I put words in your mouth. Perhaps I misunderstood your intent. The point is that I disagree with your contention that this guideline has lost community consensus. As the poll is demonstrating, so far the consensus seems to be in favor of keeping this as a quideline but editing it. I completely agree with you that the way forward is to listen to objections and resolve them. But to my mind, this should be done within the framework of this guideline. I think the consensus agrees. Blueboar 18:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- But you're going about things backwards. You don't say "this page is a guideline and we're going to rewrite it". That doesn't make sense. You say "This page needs to be rewritten. After it's finished, we can decide if we want it to be a guideline." How can you call something a guideline when you don't even know what it says yet? — Omegatron 03:04, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'd disagree with that process. First determine the requirement: There is a requirement for guidance on how the reliability of sources might be assessed to inform editors in supporting their contributions and to facilitate debate around the editing process where sources used have differing or contested levels of assurance. Once you have a requirement then you write something to fulfill that requirement.
- As I see it there are a number of questions to be answered in this current dispute, although I think there is general agreement that there is a requirement for this guidance to exist somewhere; should this guidance be embedded in an existing policy?; should existing policies be aggregated and this guidance be included there?; does the guidance have a status as enforcable material?; is consensus within large groups a fallacy?;
- Until there is a clear direction there is no general agreement to maintain or alter the status quo.
- Personally I think that for the sake of the ongoing development of encyclopedic content (yes some editors are actually doing that out there in Wikipedia) it is better to have something in place rather than withdraw it until something else can be developed. It would be a more useful and efficient use of resource to concentrate on that rather than bickering over the label.
- ALR 10:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- Omegatron, you miss one important point... this is already a guideline, not a new proposal. That makes a difference. It gained the approval and consensus of the community a long time ago, and it is my contention that it still has that approval and consensus, dispite its flaws. I also disagree with your concept of the process... I see this as being similar to how an AfD works (where if there is no clear consensus to delete, the proposal fails and the article is kept). Under this analogy, unless there is a clear consensus to demote (which there isn't), the guideline should maintain its status. Finally, you misinterpret what I have been saying... I don't think "we should decide if we want it to be a guideline after its finished"... I think it should remain a guideline throughout the process of working on it. All that said, ALR is correct... we should be working on improving the guideline, not arguing over it's status. Blueboar 13:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Blueboar on all the points in the last paragraph. Pehapse the Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines needs a slight amendment to say that once a proposal becomes a guideline there must be clear wikipedia:consensus to demote it, which is how AfD and WP work. Making it sticky in this way would stop the guideline equivalent of a move war. --Philip Baird Shearer 02:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Omegatron, you miss one important point... this is already a guideline, not a new proposal. That makes a difference. It gained the approval and consensus of the community a long time ago, and it is my contention that it still has that approval and consensus, dispite its flaws. I also disagree with your concept of the process... I see this as being similar to how an AfD works (where if there is no clear consensus to delete, the proposal fails and the article is kept). Under this analogy, unless there is a clear consensus to demote (which there isn't), the guideline should maintain its status. Finally, you misinterpret what I have been saying... I don't think "we should decide if we want it to be a guideline after its finished"... I think it should remain a guideline throughout the process of working on it. All that said, ALR is correct... we should be working on improving the guideline, not arguing over it's status. Blueboar 13:57, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Poll
- Option 1) Demote to Essay status:
- JYolkowski // talk 01:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Option 2) Keep as a Guideline:
- Blueboar 01:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Pascal.Tesson 03:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC) Serves a useful purpose. When explaining the need for references to newbies, this is a good place to point them to. Even if I agree that there are concerns with it.
- Cedars 06:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Francis Schonken 08:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Noel S McFerran 10:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Philip Baird Shearer 10:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC) I have just added some comments to WP:V at the moment there is no definition for what is a reliable source on that policy page. I think this guidline is needed to explain concept of "reliable source" expressed in WP:V.
- Second choice - I would prefer this as policy, given how central it is to our mission. To not even have it as a guideline is a huge step towards losing project focus. --Improv 14:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- We cannot have it as policy while there are substantial calls for a major rewrite. Keep it as a guideline; it points in the right direction. Septentrionalis 17:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- DanielM 11:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC) I'm splitting my vote between this and "keep and major rewrite" below. I want to specifically keep it as a guideline and rewrite/reorganize/restructure it.
- W.marsh 02:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC) Probably the best option. We need a solid definition or at least concept of reliable sources as a part of ongoing maintenence of articles. --W.marsh 02:27, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Visviva 12:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Keep as a guideline, keep it now. It is absolutely absurd that this is even labeled as "disputed," when the concerns that have been raised are so trivial and the underlying principle is so fundamental. Rewrites are fine, but we don't really need to have a poll about that, do we? Rewriting is what Wikipedians do best. :-)
- Gene Nygaard 13:16, 10 November 2006 (UTC) Keep as a guidline, and like Visviva says, that disputed tag doesn't belong there.
- Keep per Septentrionalis and Visvia. Also, there are enough sensible exceptions to this guideline that I'd rather not make it policy at the moment. JoshuaZ 04:10, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- Option 3) Trash and replace with something else:
- JYolkowski // talk 01:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC) Add the relevant portions to one of our other content policies. WP:ATT already contains everything I think is important from this so if that's accepted that solves this problem.
- ---J.S (t|c) 06:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC) when att is ready....
- Replace with WP:ATT when it is ready. Brimba 07:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Option 4) Trash and don't replace:
- Option 5) Keep but do a complete re-write:
- Option 6) Keep but do a Major re-write:
- Blueboar 01:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- JYolkowski // talk 01:59, 3 November 2006 (UTC), "Major" here involving removing everything except a bit about self-published sources.
- Francis Schonken 08:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC) with "Major" rewrites to be proposed on appropriate temp pages (or proposal pages under a different name).
- ALR 10:01, 3 November 2006 (UTC) I'd suggest that the information needs the authority of a guideline to be useful in illuminating policy and resolving difficulties in provision of evidence. However the current wording is clumsy and unhelpful.
- Philip Baird Shearer 10:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- badlydrawnjeff talk 14:17, 3 November 2006 (UTC). This needs to have some sort of way to handle blogs and web sources in a better way to become a useful guideline or policy.
- DanielM 11:33, 4 November 2006 (UTC) I split my vote between this and "keep as guideline" above, because this choice does not specify keep as guideline and I do not want it to become an "essay."
- JamesMLane t c 05:32, 7 November 2006 (UTC). There's often important information about (for example) a political campaign that can't be found in refereed journals, or even in the mainstream media. There are MSM sources that everyone seems to accept without hesitation, but that have lied to me more often than some of the so-called "questionable" sources. This page is definitely not ready to be a policy.
- Derex We need this, but the current version is not well thought out. Certainly nowhere near the basis for a policy yet. 07:18, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- Grand Slam 7 21:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC) It seems like this is important, but some parts need fixing.
- On a sidenote, as part of that rewrite I want it to be mentioned that not passing a guideline is not a grounds for deletion. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 05:05, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Option 7) Re-write where needed:
- Pascal.Tesson 03:09, 3 November 2006 (UTC)No need to go crazy. Let's figure out what needs to be done and do this nice and slow. In any case, we might have to do a more focused rewrite (or scrap it altogether) once WP:ATT is up and ready to go. Until then, no urgency to do an extensive rewrite.
- Francis Schonken 08:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Philip Baird Shearer 10:47, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- All right, where is rewriting needed? Septentrionalis 17:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Would vote for option 6, but I'm not sure we could all agree on that much. Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 00:53, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- Option 8) Fine as is:
- Option 9) Promote into a policy rather than a guidline; the consistent violation of which would be even punishable:
- Proposed. It is shameful when one compares the quality of wikipedia with other encyclopedias such as Encyclopedia of Islam, The Cambridge History of Islam, etc, etc. --Aminz 10:51, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- First choice - This is so central to our mission that to not have it as policy is an incredible embarassment. --Improv 14:10, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Wholeheartedly support. In disputes where this needs to be cited, disruptive editors are apt to cite its guideline status in defense of their hope to use frivolous material in an encyclopedia. Durova 16:40, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- This needs to be a policy, in conjunction with WP:V and WP:ATT, if consensus develops for that. Wikipedia, as a whole, needs to focus on improving article quality. Reliable sources are essential towards that goal. --Aude (talk) 18:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- Considering that WP:V is policy, this should be a companion policy that helps to enforce it. Demotion is unacceptable, and is only an attempt at an end run around WP:V and WP:OR. Oh, and voting is evil. User:Zoe|(talk) 02:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Promote into policy. If we cannot require editors to rely upon mainstream reputable sources, then we are nothing more than a pathetic mirror of the subjectivity and innuendo present in blogs and private websites. We do not give any extra weight to experts on our website -- everyone gets an equal voice. Because of that, we have to ensure that our editors are relying upon the words of people who ARE experts in their fields or in the gathering and analysis of facts and the presentation of material, whether edited news sources or peer-reviewed scientific journals. Blogs and private websites must not be allowed to be referenced on Wikipedia, except incidentally. Without an official rules editors will continue to rely upon the notion of "guideline" to include their citations from unreliable blogs and the like. This is one of the most important rules in Wikipedia, more important than assume good faith and edit boldly. Morton devonshire 06:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Promote. How can this not be policy? To echo Zoe, it's a fundamental pillar of WP:V. Just because it is policy does not mean that it can never be changed or adapted (consider the deletion policies, for example). --MCB 07:03, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Promote. As others have stated, it is an underlying concept that supports things which are policy. The idea that it should be a guideline and not a policy is odd.--Rosicrucian 19:00, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Promote (and rewrite). WP:V is meaningless without a working definition of a reliable source. This seems to be a good start at a workable policy. (Is there a tag we could put on WP:V to indicate that the policy is meaningless because the underlying terms are undefined?). (Note: it is a guideline unless there is concensus to demote. User:SlimVirgin is absoluting wrong that guidelines are demoted if concensus is lost, especially core guidelines such as this one.) — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:01, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:ATT may be a better start for a policy than this document, but it needs to be policy now. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 16:12, 6 November 2006 (UTC) - Promote It is time that we take this encyclopedia more seriously and start requiring people use reliable sources to back up their claims, promoting this would make it apparent that this is more then some little project and a show just how serious Wikipedians are about the content here. --Nuclear
Zer015:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC) - Promote "Reliable Sources" is a reference used by WP:V. The definition of RS and it's use within Wikipedia should be firm policy. --ElectricEye (talk) 04:04, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- Promote Without providing independently verifiable sources, Wikipedia's credibility goes out the window. I'd like preference given to non-partisan sources, especially when it comes to controversial subjects. Wikipedia's reputation is in the toilet unless readers can trust the verifiability and factuality of what they are reading. This isn't English composition 101. This is an encyclopedia.--FidesetRatio 03:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Option 10) Merge everything salvageable into WP:V or another policy.
- Proposed. If WP:V is not operational without a working definition of a "reliable source", then this definition must be in WP:V or another policy that requires attribution of edits to sources. Any further research advice, for example, where to look for good sources, should find its place elsewhere, for example, on relevant wikiprojects. Beit Or 12:36, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Discussion
I honestly don't think the problem is defining whether we need "reliable sources," but simply that WP is woefully behind regarding what can and should be considered a reliable source. Should this be guideline or even policy? Undoubtedly. Should it be before we make it into something that makes logical sense? Of course not. --badlydrawnjeff talk 16:56, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I think a long-term course of action would be to rebuild the page. Half the current page is specific guidelines for very small sections of articles... I'm not really sure that's needed. What I think this page should be is a very general guide on how to judge the difference between reliable and unreliable. Any specific details should be taken care of on the project/portal level. ---J.S (t|c) 17:22, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe not project/portal level... but it might be a good idea to keep the uncontroversial / less controversial material here, and move the more controversial material into essays about aspects of reliable sources. Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 14:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- That is a possibility worthy of consideration. To carry it out, we would need to determine which material is less / uncontroversial. So, what material would you move into essays? Blueboar 14:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- Here is an essay I made as a result of the discussions now in /archive8: Wikipedia:Don't use internal sources for verification. Is that the kind of thing we're talking about now? --Francis Schonken 14:19, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- That is a possibility worthy of consideration. To carry it out, we would need to determine which material is less / uncontroversial. So, what material would you move into essays? Blueboar 14:10, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe not project/portal level... but it might be a good idea to keep the uncontroversial / less controversial material here, and move the more controversial material into essays about aspects of reliable sources. Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 14:06, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) I alone do not determine the consensus is - we all do. However, I would expect that we would all be more likely to agree on overall concepts (the spirit of the guideline), than on details (the letter of the guideline). Alternatively, if all of the sub-essays are too many to handle, we could have Wikipedia:Reliable sources as a guideline, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources (extended) as an essay. I guess one way to do it would be to move the entire thing over to essays except for a broad statement that some sources are better than others, and then move unconversial / less contoversial material back here after discussion. And yes, Francis, that is the sort of thing I'm talking about. Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 14:24, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- Structurally the page leaves a lot to be desired, it doesn't at present discuss reliability per se but after a couple of light definitions goes straight into examples. There are a small number of principles which any trained researcher or serious amateur would apply to their assessment of sources and it would seem sensible to identify and elaborate on these in the early part of the guideline before going on to demonstrate how they might be applied in various situations. These principles are discussed in the basic text books about how to conduct research so should be reasonably uncontentious.
- I'll agree that applying those principles can be more contentious, witness the more recent arguments in this talk page about specific examples.
- The biggest difficulty is that reliability is not a binary condition, and many editors appear to see it as such. That probably reflects the demographic of WP users more than anything else. With that in mind actually understanding, and elucidating, what reliability is should help with those discussions.
- ALR 14:26, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- reliability is not a binary condition Hear hear! Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 14:38, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- A good line to put in the revised version. Blueboar 02:46, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I am condsidering option 9, Promote into a policy rather than a guidline, because we need to tighten up on sourcing. I wonder if it is best as a separate page here, or as part of WP:V and WP:ATT. Thoughts? Tom Harrison Talk 20:14, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
- I seriously doubt we will be able to reach a consensus for much of WP:RS strong enough to promote it to policy. Even if we did, it would be more likely to be the overall ideas, not the details or the practical application. When it comes to practical application, I'm pretty sure there are many situations when we will have very different opinions. If we can't agree, how can we block people for having a different opinion / interpretation? (And on situations we can all agree on, I'm pretty sure you could find other reasons to block the person, such as ignoring community consensus.) Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 06:33, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I am honestly mystified how anyone could seriously propose promoting this page to policy. I'm not opposed to a sourcing policy, but this page is so fundamentally flawed and broken as to be unsuitable as the foundation for any such policy. It is replete with inaccuracies and poor judgments. To oppose this page is not, as some would have it, to oppose sourcing, or to make an end run around NOR and V. It's to oppose a bad guideline that gives bad guidance. Nobody is seriously proposing a complete lack of sourcing or of consideration of what a good source is. The question is merely whether this page actually describes those issues well. It doesn't. It absolutely, 100% doesn't. Phil Sandifer 06:37, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I generally agree with Phil that as the guideline currently stands, there is no way it can be policy...but it should be, and egregious violations of a reliable sources policy should be a blockable offense. It is mandatory that examples of what are and what are not reliable sources needs to be presented, in a simple and easy to follow manner. It is an easy case...simply show what are reliable sources and what aren't by providing examples of each...if that is 20 or 30 examples, then that is fine. The rest of the wording on the page simply needs to discuss the best ways to determine a reliable source and why this is important to the project. I suppose I can work on a draft in my userspace in the next couple of weeks.--MONGO 09:09, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
<sticking in $ .02> It has come about that policies and guidelines first present a sort of nutshell or carefully worded, brief description and then expand it and present the reasoning. It has often been discussed that Reliable Sources should include the elements which, when appearing together, constitute a reliable source. To my thinking these elements are: Attributability, declared legal liability (sometimes by implication), degree of establishment (Ford Motor Company better than Bide-a-wee Biscuits) and an established history (trackrecord). If we placed this sort of reasoning early in the guideline, I think it would be helpful. Terryeo 17:39, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
So there are three questions. Should the content of this page be the foundation of a sourcing policy? While this page has some good information that can go in a policy, we might do better to start from scratch. Should we have a sourcing policy separate from what is covered in our policies on verifiability and attribution? and should the sourcing policy (or WP:V and WP:ATT) be enforced by blocks? We already enforce sourcing for living people. We might next expand that to other areas: on-going enterprises, or numerical information like populations. Any expansion like this could have its own page like WP:BLP, or a section in attribution: "All population figures must be cited to a reliable source. Removing uncited changes to population figures is exempt from 3RR. Persistently adding them is grounds for blocking." Tom Harrison Talk 14:32, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Policy dispute regarding primary sources and OR (requested comment)
Cross posted to WP:RS, WP:OR and Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine. There is a dispute going on at Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. One user found primary sources, reliable journal articles, that said depo provera may do certain negative things. Another user is disputing this, citing original research. The argument, I guess, is that the 1st user is interpreting the source, and drawing conclusions not published anywhere else. The studies only dealt with rats (not humans), and there is nothing in the patient drug information (or any other way to verify the claims outside of the studies in question). The logic goes that making a connection that a study dealing with rats may effect the use of this drug in humans as a contraception is original research. Furthermore, it may be pushing a POV that this drug is unsafe by mentioning these studies (that are not verified outside of the individual study, and not mentioned in patient drug information). I feel like I am repeating myself, sorry. The counter argument is that a) citing primary sources is a good thing b) the claims are cited and verifiable and reliable, fulfilling almost every wikipedia criteria for inclusion. So I guess there are two issues. Is using the information in this manner original research? And is it giving undue weight to a minority view by citing obscure studies like this? Sorry if I am missing anything or misrepresenting a side. Please direct comments to Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. Thanks!--Andrew c 03:31, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I took a look at the journal articles in question. They certainly meet the standard for being reliable sources. I will not get into the POV and OR issues as these are better discussed on other pages. Blueboar 13:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Concur. Sources are reliable; other questions fall outside the scope of this page. I hope your cross posts at other pages are more fruitful. You might also try WP:RFC. Durova 15:02, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
What sources are more reliable?
There is an interesting discussion at Talk:Operation Minsk, where we are discussing what to do if academic sources are contradicting each other. Comments about solution appreciated.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- This one is easy... Assuming that everyone agrees that these are reliable academic sources, the solution is to keep the article NPOV and present both (or all) of the viewpoints. Blueboar 18:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Usually, yes, but in this case we seem to have majority of schoolars involved in in depth research of this particular issue in the past 2-3 decades increasingly saying 'A', while in the past they seemed to have been divided into 'A' and 'B'; further, encyclopedias like EB and scholars mentioning the fact in question in passing tend to say 'B'. Last but not least, common logic dictates 'A', but that's just my POV :) 'A' and 'B' refer to the start date of the war (Polish-Soviet War) - 1920 was the old 'B' variant, 1919 is the newer 'A' variant, and and the issue is should we have a footnote in every article which mentions PSW in 1919 that some scholars tend not to see those events as part of the war (because they completly ignore them or were unaware of them, as it appears). So modern experts tend to say 'A' and I think we should go with the modern view in subarticles and discuss the controversy only in the main article, without the need to footnote the issue in all subarticles (battles, etc.).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- This is really a WP:NPOV issue and not a reliability issue (I don't see any argument that the 1920 sources are unreliable... only that they do not reflect current thinking). But to try to answer your question, why not say something along the lines of: "In the past, academic sources such as A, B, and C have said that the war started in 1920 (citations to A, B and C) but, more recent sources such as D, E, and F have stated that the war started in 1919 (citations)." Blueboar 18:49, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- Usually, yes, but in this case we seem to have majority of schoolars involved in in depth research of this particular issue in the past 2-3 decades increasingly saying 'A', while in the past they seemed to have been divided into 'A' and 'B'; further, encyclopedias like EB and scholars mentioning the fact in question in passing tend to say 'B'. Last but not least, common logic dictates 'A', but that's just my POV :) 'A' and 'B' refer to the start date of the war (Polish-Soviet War) - 1920 was the old 'B' variant, 1919 is the newer 'A' variant, and and the issue is should we have a footnote in every article which mentions PSW in 1919 that some scholars tend not to see those events as part of the war (because they completly ignore them or were unaware of them, as it appears). So modern experts tend to say 'A' and I think we should go with the modern view in subarticles and discuss the controversy only in the main article, without the need to footnote the issue in all subarticles (battles, etc.).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 18:36, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
- I think it is reasonable to illustrate the development of academic thought on the subject, showing the convergence of the two schools over time. I think that is a question of understanding the topic fully though and appreciate that not all editors can or will do that.ALR 14:28, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
"Convergence of the two schools over time", or the replacement of one school with another, as discussed in the article "historical revisionism", which also might throw some light on the issue --Philip Baird Shearer 15:17, 4 November 2006 (UTC)
Should the existence of misinformation require (as) reliable sources to document?
I ran into an interesting situation recently that got me thinking. Very often Wikipedia's most valuable role isn't merely telling us things we didn't know, it's also telling us which things we thought we knew about the subject aren't correct. With that in mind, I'd like to ask: when the point of discussing a certain claim is to identify that it is actually an urban legend, misunderstanding or misconception, should we require that that urban legend, misunderstanding or misconception be published by as reliable a source as we would require for anything we were presenting as true, or at least not debunked?
A true but simplified example: Two Congressmen were censured by the House for inappropriate behavior. One chose to face the main body of the House, thus turning him away from the Speaker of the House who was reading the censure. The other chose to face the Speaker of the House who was reading the censure, thus turning him away from the main body of the House. Memories of politicians being as subject they are to unconscious (and sometimes conscious) "reinterpretation", the second Congressman's action mutated from "faced the Speaker who was reading the censure and not the rest of the House" to "turned his back on the House" to "turned his back and ignored the censure as it was being read."
Now, in this case, it was easy to find a reliable source -- contemporary reports from the New York Times -- to refute the idea that the Congressman had "ignored" the censure as it was read. However, it was not as easy finding a reliable source which discussed the idea that he did do so! It's a widespread belief but principally widespread among those whom Wikipedia would not regard as a reliable source -- highly partisan websites, and private blogs. In a situation like this, it seems Wikipedia has three choices:
- Refuse to discuss the matter at all, since we cannot find reliable sources for both sides including the one that is in the wrong;
- Include the refutation of a popular misunderstanding or misconception when the refutation comes from a reliable source, but do not include mention of what the misunderstanding/misconception is;
- Include both the misunderstanding/misconception, even if we have only less-reliable sources discussing it, and include the information from reliable sources which refutes it.
I feel that the third makes the most sense. -- Antaeus Feldspar 01:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Somehow, I think that if the so-called misinformation were supported by a reliable source, then we would have a problem saying it is wrong. Of course, the refutation itself is a source that the opposing point of view does exist, but how much can we trust them to accurately represent an opposing point of view? I guess what we are looking for (ideally) is a source that we can trust to accurately represent the point of view, but cannot trust to be right. Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 15:31, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Do you have some links we can look at? I would want to see specifics, but I would be concerned that without reliable sources, the whole thing might spin off into original research -- in particular, you might need a source establishing whether the normal practice in these circumstances was to face the House, the Speaker, or whether there was no normal practice. My instinct is that careful research and/or writing will normally be able to get around the RS problem of establishing the "misconception" without the need to break RS, but in an appropriate case, you can always do so if you can convince the people on the Studds page that it's the right thing to do. (If you're going to rely on IAR, though, I would (1) discuss it on the talk page first, and (2) if you get consensus, put a comment in the main article explaining your reasoning for future editors). TheronJ 15:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Obviously, the best thing would be if a reliable source said, "The blogosphere alleged that the Congressman ignored the censure by turning his back on the House." Finding such a source may require a lot of work, but in such a prominent case, it is likely to exist. Failing that, just state what happened and note in comments or on the talk page why you think the detailed story is important. We need to be very careful about living persons: repeating a falsehood even for the purpose of refuting it can cause damage. Robert A.West (Talk) 16:07, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Blogs, redux
What about something like slog, the blog maintained by The Stranger? (The Stranger is a Seattle alternative weekly, probably the most important chronicler of the city's youth culture, and quite good on other culture and politics as well.) It would seem to me that the pieces in there that are signed by the newspaper's staff are exactly as attributable as items in the paper itself (so the usual blog issue of not knowing who wrote it is gone). On the other hand, they are probably less subject to editorial review than articles published in the paper. - Jmabel | Talk 08:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'd think it depended on the context. Blogs are usually not ok, but a few are boarder line. What exactly is it being used for? Since the blog is notable, I'd say you could make the argument that the opinion is notable. ---J.S (t|c) 10:14, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Blogs generally can only be RS as a primary source in an article about the blog, or its parent organization (to source claims about the blog or its parent org). Blogs belonging to notable organizations, such as newspapers, can be reliable sources, depending on the context and author. Obviously, something written and signed by staff (if it can be verified that they did indeed author it) would lean to the reliable side, a rant posted by a reader would not. It's a grey area that would need to be hashed out on a case by case basis. As far as using such a source to cite negative information about someone living goes, I do not think it would be a solid enough source. WP:BLP requires solid, unquestionable reliable secondary sources. - Crockspot 15:59, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- I do think we need to differentiate between a blog, an article posted to the online edition of a newspaper, and an online editorial posted on a reputable newspaper's website and written by a member of the newpaper's staff. All three have different levels of oversight and fact checking. Blogs are obviously not reliable. An article placed on the online edition of a newpaper is obviously reliable (or at least as reliable as the print edition). The online editorial is the grey zone ... half way between a blog and an online report. While such are opinion, and not the reporting of fact, they do have the same level of reliablility as a printed editorial or op-ed piece. I would lean towards accepting such as being from a reliable source ... with the cavets and attribution that would go along with any other editorial opinion piece. The hard part is determining which of the three you are dealing with. Blueboar 20:20, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- Just because the article is in a print source doesn't mean we should stop thinking about the author/contents. Letters to the editor aren't considered reliable sources either. ColourBurst 14:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- In the end, the intention is to ensure that all sources are reliable. If a particular blog is reliable (for example, Bill Thompson's blog for the BBC), where the author is identifiable and has a provable authority, then there is to my mind no compelling reason not to allow it. I would be very wary of any article sourced only from a blog or blogs, but as a supporting source for subjects on which the blogger has known and respected expertise, what is the problem? Surely the benchmark is how confident we can be in the accuracy of the information. Guy 13:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- What about a blog that isn't attached to a newspaper? eg Neil Gaiman's blog has been agreed elsewhere to be reliable when talking about Neil Gaiman, but is he an expert on comics? There's a specific example where Gene Yang's National Book Award nomination was contested by Tony Long in Wired online, and Neil Gaiman rebutted it by pointing out examples where comics have won literary awards (most famously Maus by Art Spiegelman). Is Tony Long "more reliable" just because he's attached to Wired (even though he admits he hasn't even read the NBA nominee in question and is prejudicial)? ColourBurst 17:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
- I would be inclined to consider Neil's statement as reliable, when issued within that particular contect, given his notability within the field. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 17:28, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- What about a blog that isn't attached to a newspaper? eg Neil Gaiman's blog has been agreed elsewhere to be reliable when talking about Neil Gaiman, but is he an expert on comics? There's a specific example where Gene Yang's National Book Award nomination was contested by Tony Long in Wired online, and Neil Gaiman rebutted it by pointing out examples where comics have won literary awards (most famously Maus by Art Spiegelman). Is Tony Long "more reliable" just because he's attached to Wired (even though he admits he hasn't even read the NBA nominee in question and is prejudicial)? ColourBurst 17:06, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
IMDB
This guideline currently lists the IMDB as a reliable source for movie credits. I propose this be removed. IMDB credits are just as unreliable as anything else on the IMDB, and often user submitted. 6 years ago, I uploaded the full cast and crew of a Christopher Walken film called "The Prophecy 3: The Ascent" into the IMDB. As a joke, I added popular B-movie actress Linnea Quigley to the cast, credited as a "Hooker". The IMDB fully accepted my addition. Quigley is still listed on that page (although she has been downgraded to "uncredited"). This credit is now also listed all over the net. Quigley was even asked about the role in this interview: "You had a small part as a hooker in The Prophecy 3 in 2000, did you have any scenes with Christopher Walken and what was he like? I don’t think unless they used old footage that I’m in Prophecy 3. I have to see it sometime but I wish I could have worked with them. Damn, if you have seen it and I’m in it let me know." Mad Jack 22:16, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
New draft location
Moved from elsewhere to bring this to everyones attention.ALR 23:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
I was bold and created Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite and Wikipedia talk:Reliable sources/rewrite. The former doesn't say much right now, and I suggest only adding things which we have a high degree of consensus on to it. It's talk page is divided up pretty much like the current WP:RS's table of contents. Assuming people like this idea (which they might not), we can still put anything we don't keep in the guideline in essays. Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 16:57, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- I've added a section about aspects of reliability, it's really a list of bullets to expand on right now, and I'm not at home so don't have access to my research textbooks to substantiate. However I am at business school doing a short refresher so should be able to find something in the library ;)
- I think it's a little confusing to have two articles there, I'd suggest blanking the article content from the talk page and just using it as a talk page.ALR 23:07, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
- The idea was to have a more topic-based, rather than chronological, talk page. But considering we aren't even using the same subject headings as before, I think you are right. I left you a message about there about some of the bullets in "Aspects of reliability" before I read your above message, but I'm sure you will clarify once you get ahold of your research textbooks. Overall, I like it much better - much more principle-based than our present guideline. : ) Armedblowfish (talk|mail) 00:24, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
The draft at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite is now reasonably mature, although it needs a section on convenience links. I'd welcome some views because I think that the rest is getting ready to port it across to the main page.ALR 08:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Are you talking about replacing the existing WP:RS with the rewrite? Is there sufficient support among editors for that. The existing guideline has very little in common with the rewrite. The existing guideline is much more explicit. The rewrite takes a "a number of aspects should be considered" approach.
- The existing version allows an editor in many situations to point directly to part of it and say the article needs to be sourced this way and source X in does/doesn't comply. The rewrite doesn't accomodate this as well, for example editors are asked to evaluate whether there are "any indication of gaps in the thinking or process of derivation" of the source, a much more difficult task. I can think of instances where I could effectively challenge CNN and the Economist and other mainstream media now regarded as reliable sources with that text in hand. It'll be more complicated to use the rewrite for dispute resolution, IMO. I acknowledge there are many weaknesses in the current guideline but I also don't know if this rewrite (and maybe it's a misnomer to call it that, it's so utterly different) is going to do the things a guideline needs to do. Recommend a straw poll or other consensus-seeking effort before you attempt to supersede the existing guideline with the rewrite. DanielM 14:42, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- I would suggest that the existing version is a collection of specifics and doesn't actually deal with Reliability just examples of different common law-like perceptions of reliability. I wouldn't actually describe what is currently there as a guideline at all, since it lacks any real substance.
- I'd personally get rid of most of it and replace it with general principles, but I appreciate that is a paradigm shift for many editors and probably quite disruptive. People don't tend to respond well to being treated as adults but instead prefer to be led around by the nose as long as someone else takes responsibility for them. The suggestions I've made leave editors very responsible for their own contributions, I'll concede that it does leave some scope for difficult discussions, but that's what mature, civilised, society is all about isn't it?
- I'm not wedded to including examples of sources in the text and we could quite reasonably take them out of the draft.
- In terms of process I'm quite happy with the concept of slotting the material in at the top as the meat of the guideline, then supplementing it with specific examples. Then we can move on to weeding the specifics to a manageable level without the internal inconsistency and bulk. We need to think about readability, people aren't going to get to the bottom of the current article because of the length and the opacity.
- ALR 07:52, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Can the Wikipedia:Convenience links essay (see above #Convenience links essay) be of any use? --Francis Schonken 09:07, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- It's useful, but a bit wordy. If we can condense down to a paragraph, based on the principles then that's useful. I'm wary of making a reader scroll through reams of text so it's best if the guideline is quite pithy. I'll have a think but would welcome anyone elses view.ALR 13:20, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Other new draft to simplify policies and guidelines
At the same time that the discussions here are going on and the above rewrite by ALR is being done, also a replacement for WP:V, WP:NOR as well as WP:RS is being discussed on Wikipedia:Attribution. Please give your opinion on that attempt to reduce the burden of an ever growing mass of policy. Harald88 07:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
- It's not so mucg being done by me, but I happen to specialise in knowledge management, so know more about the topic than many.ALR 08:05, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
Advice needed on ghost ramp
Can [14], a roadgeek fansite, be a reliable source for the definition of a ghost ramp? If not, what happens if the poll on talk:ghost ramp finishes with a majority in favor? --NE2 19:49, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- At a quick glance, it looks like a reliable site for such slang terminology. Blueboar 20:29, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- An amendation to my prior comment: the site you linked to (a subpage of AARoads.com) looks reliable... the other one you talk about at the poll - Gribblethingamy.bob (I don't remember the exact site name) does not. I don't think you can state that all roadgeek sites, as a blanket group, are either reliable or not ... it is a case-by-case call with each cite. Blueboar 20:54, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Why would AARoads be reliable? It's a fansite. Should we use the term "neutered shield": "Those shields that do not carry the state name are referred to as "neutered shields" on AARoads." because they use it? --NE2 22:06, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
- Fan-sites can be reliable. They have a long history (10 years) and it looks like they have support from travaelocity (that might have just been an add? not sure). I could be wrong, but if they are a respected website then they might be a RS under some contexts. ---J.S (t|c) 00:06, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- They don't have support from travelocity; that's just some sort of affiliate program. This is literally a self-published fansite, with content written by a few people and reflecting their views. --NE2 00:57, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Amazon.com Reviews
On the Dave Ramsey page, someone keeps using this review of one of his books from Amazon.com as a source for all sorts of criticsms, some not even talked about in the article. Would a review from Amazon be considered a reliable source? I don't see why, but can I get a consensus?
- Such reviews can be regarded as reliable about themselves. But that is, if I understand well, not what that editor uses it for... Harald88 07:34, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- The only legitimate use for an Amazon review would be in a passage about a controversy involving that review (as when Rob Neyer received some media criticism for writing an anonymous, negative review of another author's work). Anybody who wants to post an Amazon review can do so, and a lack of editorial oversight prevents the use of their reviews as legitimate literary criticism. -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 17:31, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Results of Straw Poll on Status of Reliable Sources Guideline
Nobody appears to have summed up the results of the straw poll up above. The poll had some methodology problems, for example it provided choices that were not mutually exclusive so a person who favored two or more choices could either vote for more than one choice or not have his or her position adequately captured, and no guidance was provided on this. All the same there's enough there to get a rough picture of what participating editors think ought to happen:
The most popular choices, a tie with 11 each, were KEEP AS GUIDELINE and KEEP BUT MAJORLY REWRITE. The third most popular choice PROMOTE TO POLICY received 9 votes. All of these choices are reasonably construed as "supportive" of the guideline. If we remove from the pool of those three choices the double counting of editors who split their votes, you get a total of 27 unique editors.
When we do the same figuring with the choices reasonably construed as "not supportive" of the guideline, DEMOTE TO ESSAY, TRASH AND REPLACE, and MERGE EVERYTHING SALVAGEABLE INTO WP:V, we get a total of 4 unique editors. The remaining choice REWRITE WHERE NEEDED is neither supportive nor not supportive of the guideline as far as I can tell. It has 5 votes, but if you look at the votes they all expressed support either by also voting for one of the aforementioned "supportive" choices, or by expressing support (ArmedBlowFish) in this particular vote.
In summary, I'm making the case that, of those editors that participated in the poll, 4 are "not supportive" whereas at least 27 are "supportive" of the guideline. Those not supportive are in a distinct minority. On this basis I propose removing both the "disputed" and "protected" tags from this guideline and letting editors go back to improving it in good faith. DanielM 13:45, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
PS: All my tabulations were done informally and are of the "back-of-the-napkin" variety. I think I was accurate but I welcome any corrections to my counts.DanielM 13:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- With the caveat of the difficulty of interpreting the poll, as explained by Daniel, I endorse both the removal of the "disputed" tag and of the page protection. As a side remark, for those who favoured update and/or rewrite, alternative proposals are being worked on in places like WP:ATT and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite (should provide the full list of active proposals in that respect, but I think I picked the two most prominent ones). --Francis Schonken 14:52, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Since the point of the poll was to determine if there was consensus for retaining this guideline or not, and since this has clearly been determined in favor of keeping it, I completely agree with removing the "disputed" tag and unprotecting the page. I also support those who have been working on WP:ATT and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite... these proposals contain some very good language that could well be incorporated here. If you have not already done so, take a look at them. Blueboar 15:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Aside from the fact that polls do not "determine" consensus, I take strong issue with treating "keep but majorly rewrite" as support for the guideline in its current form. Considering also that most of the people working over at WP:ATT didn't vote in the poll, I take serious issue with the methadology here. There is clearly a grave dispute over this page, and the use of the poll to shoehorn a desired result into place is exactly why we don't use polls for this. Phil Sandifer 17:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- (sigh) This is getting repetative... there is not a "grave dispute" over this page. The point of the poll was not to shoehorn any desired result, but simply to demonstrate that the page enjoys the support of the community. It also shows that the consensus is for us to work on the page and improve it. May I suggest that we stop debating the status of the page, and start the process of that improvement? Blueboar 18:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- It's probably unwarranted to draw any conclusions from the poll, not least because the people who objected most vocally to the status of this page as a guideline did not bother to vote. Beit Or 18:14, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- The process of that improvement has started, so I'm not sure what the point of your call to arms is. The question is whether, under a wide consensus that the page needs serious improvement, it is appropriate to point to it as an accurate description of how things should be done. It is very obvious that the current version of the page, in the eyes of many, many people, provides poor guidance. As such, it is inappropriate to point to it unambiguously as a guideline. And the poll demonstrated that. Phil Sandifer 18:18, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Phil, I was going to ask how you interpret the results and what you think we ought to do, but you are the editor who wrote "this page is a useless piece of crap" (up above, BTW is that what you tell your students who don't measure up in your estimation?) so I can guess. Still, if the people who voted for KEEP AND MAJORLY REWRITE were against the page in its current form, wouldn't they have voted TRASH AND REPLACE instead? I stand by my point that among the poll participants it is a distinct minority disputing this page. Your logic that the results don't measure those at WP:ATT or elsewhere who didn't participate in the poll is incredibly self-evident and obvious. Nobody is beating anybody over the head with the poll. We proposed modestly that the protection and disputed tag be removed. DanielM 18:38, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Daniel, I was going to respond to your points, but I noticed that you're questioning my professional integrity and quallifications instead of really addressing my points. The page has an obvious lack of consensus in its current form, requiring anything from trashing to major rewriting. Until this has happened, it cannot be said to have consensus. There is a consensus to have a reliable sources guideline. But no consensus to have this one. Phil Sandifer 18:44, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- (sigh) This is getting repetative... there is not a "grave dispute" over this page. The point of the poll was not to shoehorn any desired result, but simply to demonstrate that the page enjoys the support of the community. It also shows that the consensus is for us to work on the page and improve it. May I suggest that we stop debating the status of the page, and start the process of that improvement? Blueboar 18:11, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Aside from the fact that polls do not "determine" consensus, I take strong issue with treating "keep but majorly rewrite" as support for the guideline in its current form. Considering also that most of the people working over at WP:ATT didn't vote in the poll, I take serious issue with the methadology here. There is clearly a grave dispute over this page, and the use of the poll to shoehorn a desired result into place is exactly why we don't use polls for this. Phil Sandifer 17:17, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Since the point of the poll was to determine if there was consensus for retaining this guideline or not, and since this has clearly been determined in favor of keeping it, I completely agree with removing the "disputed" tag and unprotecting the page. I also support those who have been working on WP:ATT and Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite... these proposals contain some very good language that could well be incorporated here. If you have not already done so, take a look at them. Blueboar 15:31, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Phil, please take a look at what it says at Wikipedia:Policy dispute - especially the second part where it states clearly:
- ... declaring a policy or guideline to be in dispute can only be effectuated
- if it can be demonstrated that there has been a reasonable effort to establish consensus;
- if it can be established that there is a consensus that the best option forward is to declare the policy in dispute. This means broad consensus, for policy even very broad consensus.
- All other attempts to declare a policy or guideline in dispute after it became accepted or operational will be considered vandalism or "highly disruptive egregious disruption".
- ... declaring a policy or guideline to be in dispute can only be effectuated
- As I see it, there has been a reasonable effort to establish consensus... but, as the poll shows, that consensus is that the best option forward is to Keep the page as a quideline and work on it... and NOT to declare the policy in dispute, replace it with something else or get rid of it, etc. Face it, there is no "broad" (and certainly no "very broad") consensus for continuing to declare the guideline in dispute.
- Now, you say that "There is a consensus to have a reliable sources guideline. But no consensus to have this one." That is the function of editing, which is what we need to start doing in order to move forward. So... is there a particular part of the guideline that you feel should be worked on first? Blueboar 18:54, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- No. Phil Sandifer 18:56, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Phil, please take a look at what it says at Wikipedia:Policy dispute - especially the second part where it states clearly:
- Just so others don't mistake your simple "No" for a refusal to participate... I want to point out that it links to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Flaws ... I assume that I am correct in interpreting that as meaning (essentially) "My issues with the current verson of the guideline are presented here" (please correct me if I am misinterpreting).
- OK, that's fair. But we do have to start somewhere... Does anyone else have a particular section that they want to address first? Blueboar 19:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- You interpret correctly, with a dash of "Every paragraph of this guideline is badly flawed, just to remind you, and it needs to be flagged as such." Which is the message of the dispute tag. It's not an attack on the guideline - it's a temporary measure so that people who reference the guideline while it's being worked on know that there are some very big problems with it. Until the guideline is accurate and helpful, people deserve to know that it has major problems necessitating a major rewrite. Phil Sandifer 19:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Ah... NOW I understand better why you feel the need to have the dispute tag. I don't agree, but at least I understand.
- An unrelated question... have you taken a look at ALR's rewrite page? I feel it is getting very close to being a potential replacement and/or merger for the current wording that you object to. Would you be able to support such a replacement and/or merger? Blueboar 21:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- You interpret correctly, with a dash of "Every paragraph of this guideline is badly flawed, just to remind you, and it needs to be flagged as such." Which is the message of the dispute tag. It's not an attack on the guideline - it's a temporary measure so that people who reference the guideline while it's being worked on know that there are some very big problems with it. Until the guideline is accurate and helpful, people deserve to know that it has major problems necessitating a major rewrite. Phil Sandifer 19:15, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- I agree with Phil. Perhaps the reason some of us have given up on trying to improve this one is because we couldn't get so much as half a sentence edited without it being reverted. It became technically impossible to improve this guideline, even though it was and is wretched. Excellent edits by Mikkal, who gave up here, and by Slim Virgin, who was forced to work on the issues on a new page, were trashed by editors restoring manifestly inferior versions. All respect to Blueboar, who would have been prepared to work with me (albeit only a tiny bit at a time) to improve this text, but he will remember that no one else, no, not one of these people who have voted for a rewrite of this page, was prepared to work with us in the slightest. A lot of people have now been working very hard to improve the Wikipedia reliable-sources guidelines, but, as you know, they're not doing it here; they're doing it at a policy proposal page called Wikipedia: Attribution; but (might be wrong here) I don't think Blueboar, Daniel, or Francis have helped with that process at all. What is more important, messing about here with polls or getting stuck into improving Wikipedia policy? (And it's the policy that needs working on, the venue is irrelevant.) If consensus is totted up, clearly there are more people working on the issues of this guideline at the Attribution page than here. This is a decaying lot; too right it needs a condemned tag on it. qp10qp 21:53, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Because of this page's history as mentioned immediately above, if people think that the best course of action is to significantly rewrite the page, I think this needs to be done and stabilized before the removal of the dispute tags. JYolkowski // talk 23:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- I've asked this before, and I don't think it was answered. To the people who want it to remain a guideline, what exactly is in here that you feel matters, that isn't in WP:V or WP:NOR? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:55, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Personally, I want it as a guideline in the sense that the Manual of Style is a guideline. Nothing that you must fully comply to or your article will perish, but something with a bit of official status so that you aren't allowed to blatantly disregard it. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 23:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Qp10qp, If you have given up on this page as you say then I'm not sure why you come here to argue with those still trying to improve it. Why is your perspective that Mikkal and SlimVirgin did manifestly superior edits more valid than those editors who restored previous text? What makes you say that all of the people who voted to rewrite were unwilling to work with you in the slightest, when it is you who just said you gave up? Why do you fault me for not helping on WP:ATT, did you ever ask me? You might as well fault me for not working on Cucumber. That's fine if you think this guideline is decayed and should be condemned, participate in the poll next time and we'll understand that without having to read 2000 comments to figure out where you and the other naysayers stand. DanielM 22:59, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- It is in general helpful to remember that m:Polls are evil in the eyes of many. Furthermore, it appears to be the case that those who believe polls to be evil and those who have a general distaste of instruction creep and guideline bloat correspond. Thus that view tends to be underrepresented in polls, leaving false impressions of consensus. Phil Sandifer 23:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
- Daniel, I used the word "manifestly" because we had the depressing experience here of punctuation and grammar mistakes and poor expression being restored by kneejerk reverting, apart from anything else.
- Let me follow on from Slim Virgin's question, which continues to be ignored. The main reason why this page should cease to be a guideline and should preferably, in my opinion, cease to exist entirely is that it doesn't do anything. It has grown like a slag heap over the Verifiability, No Original Research, and, come to that, Neutral Point of View policies, which cover the ground perfectly adequately. That wouldn't be so bad, but because this page has become so bloated and ramshackle, it has gained a spurious importance of its own (which I can see that some people are attached to) and, worse still, has taken to diverging in places from the policies it was intended to assist; the latter means it is now actively damaging to policy coherence, since it provides a source of contradiction. And since it calls itself a guideline, the page makes itself seem more canonical than it really is.
- Although I think it would be better if the Attribution policy superseded Verifiability, No Original Research, and Reliable Sources, I'd be willing enough to continue with Verifiability and No Original research as the key policies on sources, if necessary; but I would still argue for Reliable Sources to go. I can fully understand why some of the commentators higher up this page saw the tag and came here to say how useful they'd found the guidance on this page; but the Attribution proposal places various useful examples and specific cases in an FAQ (see Wikipedia:Attribution/FAQ), which wouldn't claim to be a guideline. Useful examples from the present page, if they are not already covered, could be transferred there, where they would be of just as much use to editors. Have a look there for a moment. Do you not think it is a vast improvement? qp10qp 00:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- There are a lot of good aspects to that page and the main WP:ATT page. If consensus is reached to replace WP:RS with something else, this might be found to be a good candidate. I'll try to be a part of that discussion when it comes. Other people have been working on a rewrite page that I commented on up above. An hour and a half passed and it's too soon to say everybody is ignoring Slim Virgin's question. Just because a person doesn't respond to this or that question doesn't mean he or she's ignoring it anymore than the idea that a person is "unwilling to help" on <pick a page>. Slim would get better odds of responses if he or she started a line break and new header.
- You want to replace Verifiability, No Original Research, and Reliable Sources with WP:ATT and its sub-page, that a question that requires a lot of reading and study and discussion. IMO that doesn't require attacks on Reliable Sources or locking it up or demoting it. A straw poll is a useful tool to gauge the opinions of editors. Maybe the "polls are evil" crowd has working on the straw poll page, it used to be a guideline, now its an essay. Maybe it'll be a guideline again. Polls are benevolent. A straw poll can illustrate the strength of editorial opinion about a particular question. Perhaps a distinct minority is kicking up a fuss of a change when the majority of editors are in favor of preserving the existing text, or vice versa. It's not a wacky idea to make the changes you advocate but a lot of times a distinct minority or just one or two maroons may be pushing for a wacky change and a straw poll will illuminate that a preponderance of editors disagree with it. What else? If the disputed tag must stay up for now then let it stay, but the article should be unlocked or editors are deprived of the opportunity to improve it. DanielM 01:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- FYI - I have already requested an unlock so we can begin work. While we are waiting... please pop over to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite and take a look. It takes a very different approach to things. It is actually a very good rewrite in my opinion, and quickly becoming worthy of consideration to replace the current text. At minimum it is at a stage where constructive commentary is needed. I would especially ask those working on WP:ATT to comment. If you are successful at your efforts to combine WP:V, and WP:NOR (thus making WP:ATT a Policy) I could see this rewrite as being a supporting guideline. Blueboar 01:54, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- (moved from above where it was lost... I did reply to SlimVirgin): SV, I know that almost everything here is in WP:V and WP:NOR... This is intentional. Guidelines are to supposed to repeat what is said on the Policy pages. Essentially, a Guideline should be though of as a sub-page of the policy page - expanding on it in a particular area (In this case reliability). For example, WP:V states that blogs, personal websites, usenet posts etc. are unreliable and should not be used. This Guideline expands on that in more detail and tells you WHY they are unreliable. Blueboar 23:30, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
The rewrite is problematic, e.g. "Replicability — Can the conclusions of the source be reached using the information available or is there any indication of gaps in the thinking or process of derivation." It doesn't matter if the NYT article displays a "gap in thinking." It's a reliable source, period. And "process of derivation" doesn't really mean anything. SlimVirgin (talk) 04:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see that rewrite as a page that could stand on its own, but its solutions could certainly be proposed as part of the improvement drive.
- I must admit that I didn't notice that page before, even though it has been mentioned further up this page. Since some people didn't notice the Attribution proposal pages either, I wonder if this Talk page needs a statement at the top, advising people of the various rewrites in progress. Few of us manage to read every word here, and so it might be a help. qp10qp 15:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- I've first got to thank Blueboar for drawing attention to the suggestions at the rewrite page. Clearly it does need significant work and it is a major change in direction. Personally I'm all for treating editors as adults and recognising that in an academic pursuit there are few absolutes.
- By way of demonstrating that I'd suggest that the NYT is not a Reliable Source per se in all circumstances, which the point is intended to illustrate. It's as reliable as it's written and frequently media reporting contains many caveats or does not attribute its own sources.
- I'm unclear on what your background is with respect to the subject, it would be useful to know that. Clearly in this particular debate we're potentially dealing with everyone from schoolkids to post-doctoral experience, I'm sort of midrange as a post-Masters degree (twice) and management consultant.
- ALR 22:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Centralized discussion of sources
Following the example of Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability/Religioustolerance.org I created a centralized discussion regarding salon.com as a source for Wikipedia after a dispute arose on using salon.com for the article Sathya Sai Baba. See Talk:Salon.com/as_a_source_for_Wikipedia. I intend to make more centralized discussions of specific sources. Andries 09:40, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that's a centralized discussion; that's more like a subdiscussion. It may or may not be a good idea but I'm not sure how well it will work to attack each particular source on its own page.
- I think we really do need to accept the fact that sources are not merely okay or not okay. Some sources are better than others. We'd like to have the best possible at any time. John Reid ° 11:57, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
With centralized discussion about specific sources, I mean that the generic dicussions about specific sources should not be fragmented over diverse article talk pages. The contributors may not be aware that more or less the same discussion is taking place on other article talk pages. Andries 14:41, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- You're trying to settle an imponderable. Is Salon.com a reliable source? On whole, I might be tempted to say no. But Salon.com is not a source; it's a website that contains multiple pages. For any given article, some Salon page might be a good reference for some bit of information. For others, not.
- This whole effort is pointless -- I'm sorry. You do not get to avoid attacking the problem of sourcing on a case-by-case basis. Neither do you really get to label sources as "okay" and "not okay". Some references are better than others; that's all. Each reference must be evaluated individually. It's a lot of work; that's why not many people become real encyclopedia editors. John Reid ° 06:37, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- By parallel: the New York Times (or periodical of your choice) is a reliable source — in its fact-reporting articles... but that same periodical also contains editorials, guest opinion columns, letters to the editor, and advertisements, which are not subject to the same standards of fact-checking or objectivity. It would be foolish to consider the entire contents equally reliable, or equally cite-worthy to support fact claims. Likewise for an online "periodical" such as Salon or Slate. – SAJordan talkcontribs 08:39, 12 Nov 2006 (UTC).
- I understand and I agree. Salon.com as whole was attacked because it was a self-professed tabloid and appeared not in print, but only online. I think it is useful to have at least some centralized discussion. The dispute originated with an article written by a respected regular journalist of salon.com Michelle Goldberg and the article in question was not a editorial, guest opinion, letter to the editor. Andries 10:33, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- By parallel: the New York Times (or periodical of your choice) is a reliable source — in its fact-reporting articles... but that same periodical also contains editorials, guest opinion columns, letters to the editor, and advertisements, which are not subject to the same standards of fact-checking or objectivity. It would be foolish to consider the entire contents equally reliable, or equally cite-worthy to support fact claims. Likewise for an online "periodical" such as Salon or Slate. – SAJordan talkcontribs 08:39, 12 Nov 2006 (UTC).
- (minor remark:) maybe best to follow the format recommended at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion, that is: [[Wikipedia talk:Centralized discussion/Some topic]] - so, if you don't mind I'd move the Talk:Salon.com/as_a_source_for_Wikipedia page away from article talk namespace to something like: Wikipedia talk:Centralized discussion/source reliability/Salon.com. --Francis Schonken 11:08, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Question on WP:RS and peer-reviewed acedemic sources.
Some editors, including admins User:Fred Bauder and User:MONGO, have suggested that peer-reviewed academic publications from prestigious universities are not acceptable under WP:RS if the author subsequently becomes politically active in an area they define as 'disinformation'.
The specific case is Dr Ganser of the ETH Zurich who wrote a peer-reviewed book on Operation Gladio. Two years later he also wrote a chapter for a book on 9/11. Does this make his previous work unacceptable under WP:RS? Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 20:25, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks for once again misrepresenting my comments...I did not say this.--MONGO 08:17, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Unacceptable as what? He is certainly entitled to his opinion. He should be attributed when he gives it and his outrageous views pointed out. In this case, he's an extreme leftist who almost certainly pushing a political agenda either through his leftist 9/11 Conspiracy BS or his leftist attacks on western countries and views during the cold war. Under no circumstances should his opinions/conclusions be taken as unquestioned fact without substantial sources backing it up. Use common sense. --Tbeatty 22:05, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- My question was whether his views and research can be quoted in wikipedia. Tbeatty - why do you say his criticism is 'leftist'? I found no trace of 'leftism' in his commentary, and I'm sure you have not read the book in question. Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 22:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Once again, this seems to be a WP:NPOV issue rather than a reliablility issue. In this instance, Ganser's work on Operation Gladio is POV but reliable (in that it was indeed peer-reviewed and published by an academic institution - ETH Zurich.) I would say that he can be cited, but that this should be done as an opinion not as undisputed fact. Blueboar 22:10, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Thanks Blueboar. Lord Seabhcán of Baloney 22:12, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Common sense, Tbeatty, is that your frothing about "leftist" opinion and your refusal to acknowledge that it IS backed-up suggests that you want to transform the article into a whitewash. His "leftist attacks" were so outrageous that up to and including NATO invited him to speak at conferences. Your disrespect for sources contrary to your own opinions suggest that you are pushing your own POV here. Please do so in your own private blog or webpage. This isn't the forum for slander nor politically motivated defamation campaigns. If he's ok for NATO, the Swiss government and the ICRC, then you are in no position to attack him. --OliverH 13:47, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- Blissfully unaware of the situation, and thus unable to make statements that address the specifics, I can think of a handful of academics that have peer reviewed publications that are so discredited as to not really be citeable at all - the Bogdanov affair being the most obvious. I can also think of ones, including very important ones (Jacques Derrida) who are far from discredited, but are of sufficient controversy that virtually nothing they say can be stated point blank. Phil Sandifer 15:45, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- You can quote the views of someone like this, because the threshhold in Wikipedia is verifiability. But ""threshhold"" is another word for "minimum requirement" to be cited; a further requirement, though, is the consensus of editors, and if other editors replace that quote with one from a less controversial source, the quote can be deemed not to have been worth having. For example, I should think that many of the facts in the books by David Irving, who was once thought a respectable historian, are sound and soundly sourced, but I suspect that most editors here would rather have quotations from less obnoxious historians than him. (I mean, if Titus Andronicus served it, I wouldn't even eat beans on toast.) qp10qp 17:59, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- Use of Bogdanov-derived physics in any science article ought to fail to meet any acceptable test of sourcing. If it does not, then our sourcing tests are broken. Phil Sandifer 18:03, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Disputed? Fighting the wrong battle...
Sorry, I don't care if this guideline is redundant. It should be kept as a guideline. There is a distressing seepage of cruft onto Wikipedia, and we could use every single rule, guideline etc. to stop it. If you wanna fight redundancy and meaninglessness, then go fight it where it should be fought.. out there among the crufty pseudo-articles. Thanks, --Ling.Nut 20:39, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Explain what this page has to do with cruft. This page is about how to resolve real-world citation disputes. --tjstrf Now on editor review! 22:30, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
- Mmm, if I wikilinked to articles, I might start a foodfight. Let's say that I'm aware of at least one important (in my view) article which links to a tabloid newspaper and a vanity book in order to justify an entire section. The section is... charitably ... speculative. But it has emotional appeal to the contributors to that article. Does that make a connection? Reliable sources are a bulwark against cruft. Weakening that bulwark in any way is, in my opinion, not a good thing.
- But I'm not suggesting this discussion isn't valid or shouldn't take place. I was tossing in a comment. I look forward to seeing the outcome (if any) of this discussion.
- --Ling.Nut 22:51, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Probably true, absolutely not "reliable" by our rules
What do people think we should do with something like this? I have no reason at all to doubt a word this person is saying, but "My father translated and read the names and dates to me as I wrote them down in 1974…My father's mother, Teodora Vazquez Molenar Gonzalez was close to Pasqual as their mothers were sisters" isn't exactly what we usually accept. - Jmabel | Talk 02:55, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- In this case we have what the antiques dealers call "Provinance"... a direct line of written documentation to someone who is reliable (a relative of the subject of the article). This is not the same as reliability, but it is close. In this case, I think you have to ask, is there a reason to think the material is inaccurate or faulty in some way? If the the answer is no, and if the consensus on the article is to accept it... then this is a perfect example of a case where WP:Ignore all rules can apply. Remember, this is a guideline and not Law. If there is a good reason to ignore it, and no one objects, then do so. (did I actually just say that! 8>0 ) Blueboar 03:09, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- It's inadmissable. If it's true, maybe some reliable sources can be found for it. In my opinion, it should be placed on the Talk page, where it may give leads to future editors. The editor should, of course, be treated with the utmost respect and the information preserved as potentially verifiable. qp10qp 17:42, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- The provenance argument actually militates against inclusion, not for it. A dealer would want to see the diary, have it authenticated and translated by an expert, and only then would evaluate whether the claims in the diary were relevant to the provenance of the item being sold. If a recognized expert had already opined on the subject, a dealer could take the expert's word, provided that there was no doubt about the authenticity of the opinion. The first option is not available to Wikipedia for three reasons: the diary is unavailable, Wikipedia avoids original research and any expert hired by the family might (for all we know) be biased. The second option is available only if the expert's opinion is verifiable: which means that it has been published so that future Wikipedians can check that it exists and check the expert's qualifications and reputation. Robert A.West (Talk) 18:06, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
A Nobel effort but...
- I just can't seem to make my point clearly today. Maybe it's something I ate.
- Salon is not a reliable source. NYT is not a reliable source. Scientific American is not a reliable source. JCT is not a reliable source, although it is nearer the gods than most mortals. There are no reliable sources. This effort to try to push our vegetables around on our plate is embarrassing.
- Every individual reference, in every individual article, must be evaluated individually, in light of the claim made in the article and the strength of the connection between claim and citation. There is not really any point evaluating the reference itself, in any definitive way; the only question to address is Does this reference support one or more claims in this article? Now, "support" in this context is a huge word and I won't get into it all. But it goes far beyond flashing a little green ticket that says, "I'm okay."
- By extension, there is no point at all in handing out these little green tickets to entire journals or periodicals -- or little red ones, either. Any particular issue of Nature can, and sometimes does, contain a mixture of fine research, dubious speculation, and crank science that will come back to haunt authors, editors, and reviewers alike. All we can say certainly is that Nature has a good track record, while National Lampoon, quite deliberately, does not. Still, the former can contain blatant bullshit and the latter True Facts. No year passes without some fine academic's reputation going down in flames.
- Let me stress that it is especially foolish to label references based solely on the reputation of the source -- or even on the merit of the citation -- in vacuo. Nothing is easier than to shore up a weak article with authoritative sources. The journal is well-respected, the authors are eminent, the citation well-written, the math heavy. Even better, a search reveals that the citation has itself been cited many times in other articles. Ahhhh. Trouble is, if you actually read and understand the cited paper and the citing article, you see there is no support given.
- Citing and reviewing sources is one of the most highly developed faculties of humankind. The process has developed over literally five hundred years and engages some of our finest brains. Every year, tens of thousands of grad students are broken upon this wheel. Please stop trying to reinvent it -- especially, don't try to build a square one. Thank you. John Reid ° 19:56, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but what to do when there is a dispute about the question whether a certain article is a good source in a publication with a reasonable to good reputatation? It only leads to endless discussions with editors coming not a millimeter closer. Andries 20:00, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
- On a more practical note saying that nothing is absolutely reliable seems to invite all sorts of pedantry about "A is a reliable source because I said so (or some equivalent, like "we can trust this dude, trust me"), and X Y and Z are not guidelines or policy." What you're saying is fine from a theoretical perspective, but it gets fuzzier and fuzzier outside of academic areas. ColourBurst 02:53, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yes, but whilst there are a disproportionate number of schoolchildren involved in Wikipedia the guidance on how to contribute should not cater for the lowest common denominator. Trying to pin things down to absolutes leads to a general undermining of the effort because someone with credible understanding of the research process can pull it apart without much effort.
- General principle, do we treat editors as idiots and spoon feed them, or do we treat them as adults and provide a real world environment to negotiate within?
- If you're suggesting that many of those who are responsible for enforcing policy and guideline usage aren't capable of working in a mature environment then that is a different issue, one battle at a time.
- ALR 07:42, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yeah, ALR, that sounds reasonable. --Francis Schonken 08:09, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
"Reliable source" does not mean "flawless and omniscient".
And what does any of this have to do with Nobel (title of section). - Jmabel | Talk 00:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Moving forward
Before we can move forward with any rewrite, I think we need to address a fundamental question: What exactly are guidelines? Are guidelines a set of "rules" which should be followed, or are they "advice" that can be ignored?
Ideally, Policies should be considered as "rules" to be followed, and guidelines should be considered "advice" on how to implement specific sections of a policy. Thus, WP:RS should be a page of advice on how to impliment the rule stated in WP:V (ie: that statements made in articles should be cited to reliable sources.) Ideally, editors come here, read what we have to say, and go off and make their own determinations as to how reliable things are.
Unfortunately, that is not how guidelines are used in reality. When disputes arise, editors quote gidelines as if they were rules. This is understandable. Because policies tend to be very broad in scope, they do not cover specifics. But when a question or dispute over specifics arises, editors want to know how to resolve them. They want a rule that tells them if something is OK or not. In the case of this guideline, editors want some place where they can go to determine whether a given source is reliable or not. Look at the typical discussion on this page... most of the discussions start with someone posting a question such as: "Is source A a reliable source in article B?" In other words, the editors who come here don't want advice... they want a determination (to be cynical, they often don't just want a determination, they want one that in in sync with their own POV, but that is another issue).
To sum up... guidelines often are written as advice, but they are used as rules.
So the big question for us is... do we go with the ideal and write advice, or do we go with reality and write a set of rules? My personal oppinion is that we need to do something in-between. The bulk of any guideline should continue to be advice... but we should be clear that there are a few rules, and state them clearly. The advice part needs to be written as advice... It should be couched in flexible terms that encourages the reader to think on his or her own and reach their own conclusions. The rules part needs to be written as rules ... blunt, clear and concise, with little "wiggle room" or interpretation. Rules should basically repeat what is stated on the policy pages, with perhaps a bit of expansion as it relates to the subject of the guideline.
For example: As advice, I would include something like: "When a dispute about the reliablility of a source arises, editors should first attempt to resolve the issue on the article talk page or on the project page relating to that article. Often disputes over sources are actually disputes over POV, and can be resolved by rephrasing the statement the citation is being used to support as the opinion of the source." (Not really good wording... but you get the idea). As a rule, I would include the following: "As is stated in WP:V, 'Self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.' This is Wikipedia policy and should always be followed. Such sources may be used in articles about themselves, (ie articles about the book, website or blog, or when another article directly discusses the book, website or blog.) Such sources may also be used when the author can be confirmed to be a well respected expert writing in his own field of experties." (again... the wording is not perfect, but you get the idea).
OK... that's my view... what's yours? Blueboar 19:24, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Have you looked at WP:ATT and WP:ATT/FAQ ? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Yes.Blueboar 20:12, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Have you looked at WP:ATT and WP:ATT/FAQ ? ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 20:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- You have said that guidelines are advice about how to implement policies; but that is just your deduction—there's actually no foundation reason to call such advice "guidelines". In my opinion, the issue is this: advice that supports a policy should not make supplementary rulings of its own; everything should be covered in the policy. If a guideline makes rulings, it becomes a form of policy; then (as is the case now) the editor needs to follow both the policy and the guideline and becomes over-instructed. Of course, we do need some FAQs to address practical applications of policy for specific instances, but that may be done without titling the help "guideline". One advantage of dropping the name "guideline" is that where such guidance appears to contradict policy, we know to defer to policy; at the moment, this guideline can be used to challenge and obfuscate policy.
- In my opinion, we must give editors some elbow room rather than attempting to tell them precisely what to do in every instance; a firm grasp of the policy principles is the best guidance. An FAQ could then work as a help desk for specific cases. qp10qp 20:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- Qp10qp - I think we actually agree, but are simply stating things differently. I certainly agree that a guidline should never contain rules that are contradictary to a policy. I would even go a step further... any "rule" included in a guideline should be a repetition and extension of something already said in a policy. The rule making should be done on policy pages... rule explaining can be done in guidelines. You take exception to my saying that guidelines are advice about how to implement policies... OK... how would you define a guideline? Blueboar 20:41, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- In my opinion, we must give editors some elbow room rather than attempting to tell them precisely what to do in every instance; a firm grasp of the policy principles is the best guidance. An FAQ could then work as a help desk for specific cases. qp10qp 20:16, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- I don't take exception to it; I just think you are making an assumption that there is some Wikipedia structure that says "Policy plus Guideline is the system"—and there isn't. By a species of cognitive dissonance (this is here and called a guideline so its status must be explicable) you (and those who wrote the word at the top of the page) give the innocuous word "guideline", in your loyalty to it as a title, an importance it doesn't merit. "Guideline", basically, means a few bits of guidance. The implication of this page is that a guideline is more that—in effect, a set of instructions. But the policies are the instructions.
- You say that a guideline should never contain rules that are contradictory to a policy; but why should it contain any rules, then, if the rules are in policy? Why can't it just give the advice without insisting on this title "guideline"? qp10qp 21:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
- As for the title "guideline", see {{guideline}}, which says they're not carved in stone; for an account of how they come to be written, as approximations made out of Scotch tape and piano wire, see WP:PR; I can testify that it is accurate for the guidelines I have seen written. Septentrionalis 01:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- You say that a guideline should never contain rules that are contradictory to a policy; but why should it contain any rules, then, if the rules are in policy? Why can't it just give the advice without insisting on this title "guideline"? qp10qp 21:33, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
How to
If anyone is interested, I think a short discussion of how real encyclopedia editors and other academics make and verify credible references might be in order. Entire books have been written about this topic, some straying far into metaphysics, but let's just cover the basics.
There is no such thing as an utterly definitive reference. All must be subjected to a balancing test. Many ingredients go into the soup and all must be tasted. Here are a few:
- Reputation of the publication. Most of the discussion here seems to touch on this so I'll not beat it to death.
- Reputation of the authors. Some academics have established themselves as authorities; their papers are highly regarded. In non-academic fields, there is still an emphasis on authors who have previously shown themselves responsible.
- Relevance of the publication's field. I would not give a plugged nickel for a paper in Cell on the topic of topology, no matter who wrote it.
- Relevance of the author's field. I highly respect Stephen Hawking but I would not pay too much attention to his "History of Spaghetti Sauce". I wouldn't even take Justin Wilson's too seriously.
- Relevance of the citation itself. Perhaps the publication normally and respectably deals with, say, Cetacea; perhaps the authors are respected marine biologists; perhaps the paper describes the migrations of the Humpback Whale. Well and good. But if the paper is used to bolster an argument made about the mating habits of Sea turtles, I will not rate it so highly -- in this context.
- Correspondence between the claim and the supporting citation. This is key. It's extremely easy to cite a paper that comes from a good journal, good authors; a paper in the same field as the article itself -- even one whose title strongly suggests support of the article's thesis. I may need to have good knowledge of the underlying discipline to see that the cited paper doesn't really support the article's claim.
- Prior citations. I like to see that a cited paper has been cited in other papers published in peer-reviewed journals. This is good but not definitive. I actually question those which have been very widely cited; it suggests a lazy author.
- Post-publication review. It's always good to see a citation that's been picked up in other journals and reviewed, if only briefly.
- Agreement among citations. Two citations that support the same claim are stronger than either one alone. The whole is more than the sum of its parts. This is somewhat weakened if one paper cites the other one in order to prop up its own claims. It's fine if it just mentions the other to be complete.
- Strength of the citation's citations. The process of verifying citations is recursive. The most august paper, if it is not itself well-sourced, is not a particularly good citation. Of course, in the case of papers which present original research, another criterion is paramount.
- Availability of raw data. This is that other criterion. Papers which present original research need to document data gathering. They do not ordinarily publish raw data itself but it should be clear from context whether this is available for review.
About this time, you are wondering how in the world any citation can meet all these criteria. Short answer: Few do. Certainly, in the world of popular culture, you are not likely to get anything nearly as good as this standard. Deal with it. Either refuse to accept articles on such topics or lower citation standards for them. There really isn't much choice.
Try to keep in mind that none of this is remotely fun. All the fun of writing for publication comes from actually writing the article. All that boring research in the stacks is hard on the eyes and taxes one's patience. You cannot really hope to do it without access to a good university library. Most of what's available online gratis is garbage. If you have access to certain databases, you may do better but most of the important stuff is only in print -- or worse, on fiche.
I close with a serious caution. Most of us are simply not qualified to judge the merit of most citations. In order to do this, you need to be qualified in the field. I am a generalist, with very broad experience that cuts across many fields. Still, I would hesitate to make a final statement on any citation not in a field in which I have deep experience -- which such are rather few.
I've said it before: Let's try not to reinvent the wheel. Citing sources is a discipline that's evolved over a very long time and has had many hands in the development. There are many authoritative references on the topic. If you intend to develop a rigorous, comprehensive citation policy, you need to start by sourcing the claims you make here. John Reid ° 11:34, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- First of all, everything you say is true (I would like to see you post it at Wikipedia: Citing Sources). However, the mistake you make is to believe that Wikipedia should cite like a scholarly journal; in fact, if it resembles print forms at all, it resembles popular non-fiction. The reason for citing on Wikipedia is nothing to do with scholarship but to do with what we (clumsily, in my opinion) call "verification". Our imperative is only this: whatever we say here should have already been said in a reliable published work. So long as we keep to that principle, the production of a reliable article on Wikipedia need not be as difficult as you make out.
- Of course, even then, there are still many judgement calls for editors to make; but we don't necessarily have to behave like professional scholars (in fact, that would make us original researchers). If we can find a secondary source published by a standard publisher, we may use its information without inquiring into how that book found its information; instead, we feed like a parasite off that book's editing and publishing process. To produce articles of the highest quality, of course, we may go further and check every source possible, including primary ones (I have sometimes done this myself), using library resources, and this may lead us to question some of the normally accepted secondary sources—but this is far from being a requirement in what, for want of a better term, has been called a tertiary medium. In other words, it's monkey see, monkey do.
- In fields where fully exposed information isn't available—some topics in popular culture, for example—we shouldn't give up but use the best sources we can in the circumstances.
- Having said all this, I agree with you if you feel that the present page is naive in talking of "reliable sources" as if that's the criterion; it isn't, it's the threshhold (we might take the NYT seriously but disqualify its gossip column). People who merely parrot some of the advice on this page will certainly make bad decisions. qp10qp 13:29, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
- John, have you taken a look at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/rewrite? I'd be interested in your opinion on it. JYolkowski // talk 00:28, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
- Most of what has gone into that has been based on this, Research Methods for Business Students by Saunders and Thornhill which I used as a student and still use when I'm teaching research methods to young managers. Notwithstanding that I'd welcome some other views on my particular distillation of the content.ALR 07:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
A vast improvement. John Reid ° 09:21, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
A B C
Oh, okay. We're not trying to meet academic standards for peer-reviewed journal articles. We're just trying to write the best articles possible and support them as best we can. Sorry; for a minute there, I thought we were serious about all this reliable sources bumf.
If we're not going to try to reinvent the wheel and streamline the process of researching and verifying citations, then we can scale back to what is practical in an open community full of untrained editors. I made this suggestion before but it didn't catch fire. I honestly do believe people would rather play at academia and force some random collection of "rules" into policy, trying to cover the entire field of human knowledge with straight lines and wobbly restrictions. If I'm wrong, I'll try again.
No matter what, every citation must be evaluated on its own merits. There is no bypassing this. No amount of huffing and puffing is going to result in a short, easy-to-read standard against which every citation can be measured. You may not like this, but yes, every single citation is an opportunity for a little bitty war. You say it's okay, I say it's not, we argue, we cite more sources to support our views. The merits of the individual citation in its individual context absolutely trump any project-wide standard.
Not only that, we must face up realistically to the fact that some articles are going to be better sourced than others. Worthwhile articles can and should be written on topics where fair sources are all that are available. If we thrash out some high standard for "reliable" sources, we cut off all lesser ones. If we settle for a minimum standard, we fail to push for the best available when we have many from which to choose. The only thing crazier than trying to set one bar for the entire project is to try to set a zillion little bars, one each for every category of article -- here, in one central space. Most editors will simply ignore this effort. You take, for example, Classical Music. Editors who work in that area have no interest at all in this general effort; they will ignore it, too, if it conflicts with the system they have already settled upon.
With this in mind, all that remains of general, project-wide interest is some sort of rudimentary source rating scheme. Having admitted that some sources are better than others, I propose a simple grading system: A, B, and C.
| flaglink/core | variant = | size = | name = | altlink = men's national softball team | altvar = softball | mw = men's }} - {{sb}}
- {{{1}}} - {{sc}}
Go to articles one at a time; check sources given one at a time; and grade them appropriately if you think you have enough understanding to do so. Then move on. If somebody else changes the rating, let it go. In fact, I will say that if you are here, you almost certainly have a generalist bent of mind, which means that although you may have a better grasp of why it is important to have some sort of project-wide standards for sources, any specialist is probably a better judge than you are in his specific area. So let it go.
There is no point at all in warring over a source's grade so long as there are hundreds of thousands of unrated sources in the project. When all sources have grades and you want to dispute another editor's change to one of your grades, do so politely; argue your case rationally and on individual merits. Do not hope to kill the entire beast on this one page in one week.
That's all. John Reid ° 08:29, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
There; I've documented the process and the series of templates. See Source grading. I've also included a new placeholder template for use when editors simply can't agree. John Reid ° 09:19, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
- I would add a source code "F"... for when totally unreliable sources are used. (It does happen). Blueboar 13:43, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Please make that comment at Wikipedia talk:Source grading. The short answer is no; just remove it. John Reid ° 11:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Strawman arguments
Few types of sources make me more uncomfortable than those of any stripe that rely upon strawman arguments, innuendo, ad hominem arguments, etc. My opinion is they cheapen Wikipedia's reliability as an overall resource, and they furthermore exacerbate partisanship. Is there any way we could tighten the requirements surrounding partisan or religious sources to ensure they at least have a shred of indisputable fact in them? I have seen pages of different stripes with unsubstantiated rants supporting them, which seem to weaken Wikipedia's overall credibility. Encyclopedias stake their reputations on being factual, not opinionated, at least traditionally. Just the facts ma'am.--FidesetRatio 03:37, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- What you are talking about is often a NPOV issue and not an issue about the reliablility of sources. In other words, the sources are reliable, but it depends on how the sources are used. To keep articles NPOV, we must often discuss the allegations or opinions of those who use strawman arguments, innuendo and ad hominem arguments. The key is to state these as oppinions and allegations, and not as facts.
- We can say someting like "According to author I. M. Looney, 'Lobsters are evil because... (insert inuendo, strawman, or ad hominem argument here)...'<ref>I. M. Looney, ''101 Reasons to Hate Lobsters''. p. 27</ref>" But we should not say "Lobsters are evil because (insert inuendo, strawman or adhominem argument<ref>I. M. Looney, ''101 Reasons to Hate Lobsters'', p. 27</ref>". Blueboar 15:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- I wish that the sentiment you express could be hammered into the heads of RS-nazis everywhere. An unconfirmable source ought to be acceptable for inclusion if it is attributed in the prose as being from that source. The reader can then research the source and make up their own minds. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 17:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- It seems the exception rather than the rule on Wikipedia. Too many articles in my opinion seem to be propaganda pieces for different POVs that the editors and admins who work on them guard jealously. I define reliable as accurate or truthful.--FidesetRatio 17:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Then you're not understanding what reliable means in the wikisense. "Truth" has nothing to do with what we do here. We are reporters, stating what other sources say. We are not here to impose or impute "truth" into the mix. Wjhonson 17:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- FidesetRatio does have a point however. An overabundance of articles are POV (and poorly sourced POV at that). That is not really an issue for this page, but it is a problem. Fideset, I would recommend that you raise the issue at WP:NPOV.
- Then you're not understanding what reliable means in the wikisense. "Truth" has nothing to do with what we do here. We are reporters, stating what other sources say. We are not here to impose or impute "truth" into the mix. Wjhonson 17:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- It seems the exception rather than the rule on Wikipedia. Too many articles in my opinion seem to be propaganda pieces for different POVs that the editors and admins who work on them guard jealously. I define reliable as accurate or truthful.--FidesetRatio 17:41, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- I wish that the sentiment you express could be hammered into the heads of RS-nazis everywhere. An unconfirmable source ought to be acceptable for inclusion if it is attributed in the prose as being from that source. The reader can then research the source and make up their own minds. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 17:18, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- I'm raising the point here because the use of specious articles based upon people's emotive behavior without a lick of facts to support them makes Wikipedia look foolish. Things like "According to x, John Smith has ties to the hated group Y." However, the author doesn't provide any hard evidence to back up his or her claims.
- Or, I frequently find sources that say something like "John Smith is x because he talked with person Y at Z conference." Nothing has been proven because Mr. Smith hasn't come out and said he is x.
- If truth has "nothing to do with what we do here," this is it okay to spin falsehoods, distortions or deceptions?
- If you were a reporter, then you would simply report without entering into the argument. I am a reporter in work a day life, and if I published something that was false, misleading, etc., I could get fired for a breach of journalstic ethics. It's one thing to argue over the clear facts, but it's quite another to allow sources that base themselves 100 percent upon emotion and say, "The facts be damned."
- Using that "truth has nothing to do with what we do here" line, then logically there would be nothing wrong with including materials from Holocaust deniers in the articles on WWII, the Nazis or the Holocaust itself. Because if there isn't any absolute truth, then there was nothing wrong with what the Nazis did. (I'm playing devil's advocate here to illustrate my point.)
- If Wikipedia wants to eschew accuracy or factual content, then it deserves the less than stellar reputation it has. I'm here to be a part of helping Wikipedia attain respectability. Traditional encyclopedias reject innuendo because it's not verifiable, unless it's part of the biography of the person or group making the innuendo remarks.
- I say a source is reliable, in my professional opinion as a paid journalist, if the assertions being made can be demonstrated to have a factual basis separate from the person making the statement. If you want to rely upon crappy 3rd-rate sources, then Wikipedia deserves the reputation it has. I want to make a positive contribution here to improve standards, so that Wikipedia's reputation will improve.--FidesetRatio 01:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- Wikipedia's neutrality requires to include information about Holocaust denials according to WP:NPOV policy. As it's a very small minority opinion, it isn't a "problem". And Wikipdia doesn't make moral judgments but reports about them; as a reporter that may sound familiar to you. An IMO good example of a news organization that apparently attempts a similar policy is BBC World.
- Note that Wikipdia already has a manual that informs and warns about such things as strawmen arguments and that is linked from the NPOV policy page: Wikipedia:NPOV_tutorial#Space_and_balance
- Harald88 00:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:EL revisions
Please note that WP:EL has been revised... there is one section that may impact this guideline or the various rewrites being drafted:
- Links normally to be avoided
- Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or is an official page of the subject of the article, one should avoid:
- 2 Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources.
This is the first time that I can think of where factually inaccurate material has been discussed in such a explicitly negative way in a guideline. OUR guideline certainly doesn't (nor the draft rewrites that might replace it). Given this, Perhaps the time has come for us to address the issue of sources that contain factually inaccurate material as well.
I know that we have to be careful not to contradict the priciples expressed in WP:NPOV... but I think we could state something similar to what is on WP:EL. I.E. any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research should not be considered reliable. Any thoughts on this? Blueboar 19:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Maybe Wikipedia needs some sort of quality-control mechanism. I'm a reporter, and if my source gives me bad information, I still get killed by my readers, even if it wasn't my fault the information was misleading. What do you think about banning political or religious propaganda as reliable sources, save for if we are discussing say Socialist, Fascist, Communist, Catholic, atheist propaganda, etc.? Propaganda doesn't require any factual basis to it, and my journalistic instincts say that a third-party, non-partisan source needs to be provided to verify any opinion-based claims. If you say that so-and-so belongs to a certain group, you had better have independed verification from a non-partisan source, such as a reputable newspaper, journal, etc., otherwise letting that slide allows Wikipedia's articles to degenerate to the level of trash and uselessness. With Citizendium on the horizon, Wikipedia needs to be competitive, or suffer Nupedia's fate. Contributors and readers will go elsewhere if they don't trust Wikipedia's content.--FidesetRatio 03:13, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
On the change to WP:EL: Seems utterly misguided to judge this at the level of a site. By this logic, we can't link IMDB for basic info on the cast of a film because it may have inaccurate or misleading reviews; we can't link a newspaper because it runs misleading personals ads; etc. Surely this cannot mean what it says. - Jmabel | Talk 00:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
On FidesetRatio's remarks: Do I read you as saying that centrist, capitalist (and perhaps Protestant?) viewpoints are trusted and other viewpoints are inherently "propaganda"? Are you saying, for example, that we should distrust George Orwell as a source because he was a socialist? No thanks. The issue is intellectual honesty, not someone's politics. For example, I trust the BBC, Wall Street Journal, The Nation, and The National Review about equally on factual reporting, which is to say I assume them all to be trying to get their facts right, and usually succeeding, at least in outline. Conversely, I don't trust Fox News any more than Stalinist-era Pravda. - Jmabel | Talk 00:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Strange Third-Party Case
I'd like comment (and possible updates to this article as a result) on a strange case occurring on the Shah Rukh Khan article. In order to support the claim that Khan is of Pashtun origin (when other reliable sources state his Pathan roots), users have claimed that the term 'Pathan' is a way of referring to 'Pashtuns' and are attempting to use information on AfghanLand that supports this claim. As far as I can see this site only supports the view that 'Pathan' is a term referring to Pashtuns, and is not in itself a reliable source to reference Khan's supposed Pashtun origins. Am I correct in my understanding of WP:RS?
I was unable to find information on this article that can cater to this situation, so I would appreciate it if these circumstances can be discussed and the article updated if necessary. Regards, Ekantik 05:45, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Forums as reliable sources
There are some fields of study where the best, current information is available online in moderated forums. A moderated forum is very much like a published journal because expert moderators review the material and challenge or correct any factual errors they identify. I see no reason why we should ascribe special power to paper over electrons. I've boldly edited this page to explain this. Feel free to revert if you think I've been too bold. Jehochman (Talk/Contrib) 19:31, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed there. A moderated forum under the meaning you're using is far different from the standard forum where I can post whatever I please. -Amarkov blahedits 20:18, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Question about fringe site citations
It is relatively clear that fringe sites may not be used to justify opinions/facts outside of articles about those sites/individuals themselves. I will bring a ficticious scenario first to isolate the issue, and would request that the issue be decided upon without reference to the actual article to prevent any subconcious bias either way. Assume it is notable that a person's work has been used by extremist sites to justify the opinions of those sites (the question here should only relate to WP:RS). Is it acceptable to use those sites' quotations of said person's work as a WP:RS, or must we find a secondary source stating that the primary source uses the persons work. For example. Assume (and for the sake of cordiality I will try and create a rediculous scenario) that the work of Winston Churchill was being used to justify discrimination against the non-indigenous population of Sumatra by the "Sumatran Supremacy Society" (SSS), and assume that is a notable fact. Can the webage of the SSS, which brings a transcript of a radio address by the head of the society, be used as a reference, or must another site (such as discrimination-watch or something like that) which brings the the fact that the transcript is quoted (or even less directly, that the SSS uses Churchill without direct quotes) be used? I think that in this case the site is not being used to justify an opinion or external fact; rather, it is being used to justify that the site/organization itself holds that fact, in which case it should be acceptable under WP:RS. However, there is a debate in the matter, and as such, we would like input here. Thank you. -- Avi 15:13, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- The issue is not whether the site is "fringe" but rather whether it is "extremist". A fringe site might be "People who Sew Buttons on Aspirin Bottles", but other than being perhaps a bit eccentric, there's nothing apparently harmful, obnoxious or insulting there. Your question above however isn't completely clear. Are you trying to bring the source to the page of Winston Churchill? Or are you trying to bring it to the page of SSS ? If the fact that SSS uses the quote in some odd way is notable and impacts on the biography of Churchill, then that could be brought to his page, provided its some sort of criticism/commentary on him, rather than on them. "Fringe" or "Extermist" is a matter of fine gradations. Wjhonson 18:14, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Thank you for commenting. To clarify, the question is to bring the fact that the SSS quotes Churchill's work to support their efforts on Churchill's page. So, if I understand you correctly, it is your opinion that if the fact that the SSS uses Churchil is considered notable in defining Churchil's effect and influence on the political scene, then quoting the SSS's use directly from the SSS page is acceptable, even if they are an extremist group? Or have I misunderstood you? Thanks. -- Avi 18:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
- This issue here is whether the SSS's use of Churchill's is an important and notable fact in a discussion of Churchill. This depends on two sub-factors: 1) how well known the extremist group is, and 2) to what extent they base their beliefs on Chuchill.
- On the first sub-factor: If the extremist group is itself truely notable (with coverage in the media etc.), then it might be notable that they quote (or misquote) Churchill. If the SSS is a relatively unknown group then the fact that they quote Churchill is not really noteworthy.
- On the second sub-factor, even if the extremist group is well known, it still might not be worthy of mention in the Churchill article. If the quote is a brief, passing quote, it is not really notable. Extensive quotation (to the point where Churchill has obviously played an important roll in developing the extremist group's platform) would be notable.
- One final comment... extremist groups are notorious for either misquoting things, or quoting things out of context to support their view... it is always a good idea to check what they say against the original. Blueboar 19:56, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Blueboar, I specifically worded the question in such a way as to focus on the reliable source aspect. Assume that notability is not an issue here, please. Thank you. -- Avi 21:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Further, the issue here is whether or not the SSS site itself can be used to show that the SSS uses Churchill to support their beliefs; no more, no less. -- Avi 01:01, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- In which case, the question is whether their use of Churchill (or whoever) is extensive or just passing. If extensive, then yes... WP:RS supports citing Churchill (or whoever) as a source. However, I would still double check the original to make sure they are quotion accurately and in context. Blueboar 01:41, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, context is needed. A guideline is just that a guide, a recommended approach and not a dogmatic rule. I would suggest that you provide the link to to article in question, so that your question can be addressed in context.≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. Blueboar 04:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Understood, jossi. However, someone interpreted the extremeist clause of WP:RS to be that regardless of notability one can never use extreme sites as sources outside articles about those very sites, and I disagreed saying that one cannot use those sites to support exogenous opinions, but one may use those sites to support the fact that those sites themselves do X, Y, and Z, even in other articles. Of course the notability is a separate issue, but I wanted clarification (and I seem to have obtained that) that if the notability of the extremist site using someone's work is notable, to bring the EXISTANCE of the extremisty site using that work in the PERSON's article is not a violation of WP:RS. -- Avi 04:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- Well, I know what article in question it is, ...but I think I will leave it to Avi to tell you ..;-) .. anyway; as I have told Avi, I had a somewhat similar question here back in July; "When to quote "fringe" opinion": [15] From my understanding of the replies then, one should be very retrictive indeed, when quoting "widely acknowledged extremist views". Otherwise one could be opening "a can of worms". (Imagine adding critisism from LaRouche to each and every one who is on their current villain-list: LaRouche_Movement#Current_villains. Ugh.).
- Another thing, by having direct links to the web-sites of those with "widely acknowledged extremist views" (say, the "Sumatran Supremacy Society"), we might actually increase the web-traffic to them. The "Sumatran Supremacy Society" will surely be delighted by that, but is this what Wikipedia should do? I think not. Anyway, Avi; as the others want to know the context: I think you should give it to them. Regards, Huldra 09:15, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The context is somewhat obvious if you look at my edit history. However, as I mentioned in the initial paragraph, I wanted to get answers unencumbered by bias (subconcious or otherwise, in any direction). Secondly, looking at the specific article in question, it will be very difficult to disentangle the notability issue from the reliable source issue. The question raised here is important enough that it should not be contaminated by other issues. Therefore, I did not ask for opinions about a particular article, but about the application of the WP:RS policy. There is a distinct and specific difference. The notability of the fact in question should be discussed on the article's talk page. The blanking of the facts using WP:RS as a reason seems to me to be a misunderstanding of WP:RS. -- Avi 14:54, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- First off... WP:RS is not policy (much as many would like it to be). It is a Guideline, which is designed to give advice not lay down rules. We can amplify such advice on this talk page, but you should not interpret our advice as dogmatic policy. The policies that seem to relate are WP:V and WP:NPOV. That said... what you are talking about seems to be a case specific example. From what you have told us, someone is blanking information that you feel should be included in an article, and basing the blanking on this guideline. This could be a misunderstanding of WP:RS or not, depending on the specifics. I don't think we can offer good advice on this without taking into account the specifics of the citation and how it relates to the article in question. All we can say is that, in general, Fringe and extremist groups make for poor sources. As I said above, they often twist the facts, take things out of context, and misquote their source material. This is a major reason why the general rule is to avoid using them as a source. Since you have not shared what the article in question is, we can not tell whether this is the case in your particular article. Thus, it is something you and the other editors who work on this article will have to determine on your own. THAT said... It sounds controvercial enough that the material should probably be removed to the talk page while full discussion takes place. Blueboar 16:38, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Interesting. As I remarked a few sections back, I think it is wrong to view this at the level of sites. For example, if (and this is not a hypothetical case) a white supremacist group has a collection of transcriptions of out-of-print, pre-1923 books, and there is every evidence that they are completely legitimate reproductions of the works in question (down to reproducing every footnote and indicating exactly where the pagebreaks are), I can't think why the site's politics should bear on the matter. Conversely, a site can be "mainstream" as all get-out, but intellectually dishonest. - Jmabel | Talk 00:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Fiction as historical fact
During my time here, I've come into conflict with editors using historical fiction as sources. See here: Talk:Scottish pork taboo and Talk:Black Irish#Black Scots. It seems a no-brainer to me that one should never, ever use works as fiction as historical sources. Even if it sounds convicing, or it was written during the time. Authors are under no obligation to include accurate facts in their stories, and there is no clear dividing line between the fact and the fiction. I suggest that this article be updated to include a sentence making this explicitly clear.--Nydas(Talk) 11:30, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- It would be safe to add the {{fiction}} template to these articles, until the fiction/non-fiction issues are resolved.
- These things can be tricky and take considerable time to resolve, compare List of legendary kings of Britain: the problem there is that present-day historians are all agreeing that that article's main source (Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae) is a mixture of fiction and non-fiction, but that it is very difficult to separate the one from the other (e.g. it's impossible to label it "complete fiction", while, for instance, some real Roman Emperors, that in reality ruled Britain, are included in the list). --Francis Schonken 11:46, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- And there's another borderline category: Bjorn Kurten's Dance of the Tiger was written to present his conjecture about the end of the Neanderthals. He's a paleontologist, but chose not to write it as an academic paper, because he doesn't think "just-so" stories belong in journals. But it's an interesting conjecture, and we should mention it (as Kurten's opinion).
- Again, many historical novels have extensive end-notes about what is historical; those are often good sources: Claudius the God for example, or several of the novels of Gillian Bradshaw. An early novel on space-flight had a 60 page technical appendix.
- I doubt Nydas is dealing with either of these; but we should be careful with wording. Septentrionalis 15:49, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- And, just to further demonstrate how things blur, there are speculative essays by Larry Niven and Isaac Asimov that are oriented towards the writing of fiction, but contain some of the most lucid explanations (for a non-specialist) of certain scientific matters that I have seen. IIRC, the technical appendix referenced above fits into this category. Robert A.West (Talk) 16:19, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- Much of this can be aleviated by proper labeling in the article. You should never state something from a work of fiction as fact. But you can state it as being the author's conjecture that is presented in a work of fiction. Blueboar 16:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- But, when a publisher includes a nonfiction essay in the same volume as a work of fiction by the same author, the nonfiction status is clear, and the author a qualified researcher, there should be no objection to citing the factual or critical material. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- In the case of the Scottish pork taboo, it has been suggested that a footnote in the Fortunes of Nigel is a reasonable source. Opinions? Obviously this is more complex that I had first thought. However, I still feel that there must be stronger sources for this taboo, if it actually existed.--Nydas(Talk) 20:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- Sir Walter was a wonderful writer, but an indifferent historian. This is, after all, the man who gave us the howler bar sinister. I wouldn't rely on him for particulars, although he would be a valid example of notability of that (or any other) practice. Robert A.West (Talk) 20:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- The notes to Fortunes of Nigel are definitely non-fiction; and many of Sir Walter's notes cite primary sources; but the warning is well-taken: as a historian, he is both careless and dated. Therefore insisting on a modern historian is probably reasonable. (But this is no worse than the dozens of articles which give Herodotus or Plutarch or Livy without any trace of secondary sources; so it may be best to settle for "Sir Walter Scott says..." which will warn the prudent.) Septentrionalis 22:57, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- Sir Walter was a wonderful writer, but an indifferent historian. This is, after all, the man who gave us the howler bar sinister. I wouldn't rely on him for particulars, although he would be a valid example of notability of that (or any other) practice. Robert A.West (Talk) 20:50, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- In the case of the Scottish pork taboo, it has been suggested that a footnote in the Fortunes of Nigel is a reasonable source. Opinions? Obviously this is more complex that I had first thought. However, I still feel that there must be stronger sources for this taboo, if it actually existed.--Nydas(Talk) 20:29, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- But, when a publisher includes a nonfiction essay in the same volume as a work of fiction by the same author, the nonfiction status is clear, and the author a qualified researcher, there should be no objection to citing the factual or critical material. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
- Much of this can be aleviated by proper labeling in the article. You should never state something from a work of fiction as fact. But you can state it as being the author's conjecture that is presented in a work of fiction. Blueboar 16:43, 24 November 2006 (UTC)