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Criteria needed for using images of deceased persons?
Seems to me that a list of criteria for images of deceased is overdue. The issue has been discussed numerous times without much success to limit such usage. Now we have non-free images of deceased challenged, like those of Reg Grundy and Helen Rollason. Before starting another RFC, I think we need to develop individual working criteria to individually propose. For instance, between the timing of death and when to upload appropriate, availability of images qualified for Commons, contacting photographers, etc. Pinging Aspects, Stephen, This is Paul, and Masem. --George Ho (talk) 19:08, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Hmm... seems too broad. I'll narrow down to "irreplaceable" image instead. George Ho (talk) 19:19, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
- It has always seemed to me that "respect for commercial opportunities" should preclude immediate usage of non-free photos when the subject has just died as that is the moment that the copyright owner may experience the most demand. A blackout period of a month should cover obituary coverage when news outlets would want to license such works. Accordingly, I would recommend continuing the existing guideline of WP:NFCI #10 with an addition of such language as: "Note: As the period immediately following a person's demise is likely to see an increased demand for licensing non-free images for obituaries, no new non-free images of such person may be included before one month (31 days) after the date of such person's death." 24.151.10.165 (talk) 15:31, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- An excellent point. I would extend it to 90 days though. --Hammersoft (talk) 16:02, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- As there are, even in this Internet age, still a number of publications that publish on a quarterly basis (e.g. obituaries in some academic journals), I see some support for 90 days, though I still think that one month would capture most of the commercially valuable usage. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 16:24, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
- 90 days seems fine to me if we're basing it on the assumption that article was created after the subject died. However, many BLPs have been without images for years and it seems good faith to assume that someone may have been looking for such an image since the article was created. Does that need to be taken into account? For example of this, see File talk:A. A. Gill BBC 2012.jpg. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:49, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Only if there have been clear efforts prior to death to find a free image with no luck. The bulk of the time, no one has expended the effort so after death, there needs to be some reasonable attempt (hence waiting 30 days). But, say, we know extensive effort has been made for Kim Jong-un that should he die, there would be almost no question of adding a non-free the next day. --MASEM (t) 03:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- My point about "respect for commercial opportunities" is orthogonal to the 'diligent efforts to find a free image' one. I would argue that adding a non-free photograph of Kim immediately after he dies would be using the copyright holder's work at the exact moment when its market value has spiked and is more likely to fail a copyright infringement four factors analysis. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 18:01, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oh, that is absolutely true. We could not turn to a Getty's image on the moment Kim passed away to use as non-free for that exact reason: NFCC#2 still is needed. But based on the amount of searching we have done in the past for a free image of Kim, we know there exists non-free copyrighted images that are not press corps images, which can be used without NFCC#2 violations; my point is that in the case of Kim, we have it well-documented on the never-ending search for a free image, an area of discussion absent on most other BLP pages, and thus would justify a very short period before adding non-free. --MASEM (t) 18:08, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- Just because an image is on Getty doesn't mean they own it. They like to acquire free images, including the ones from Commons. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- If you can prove that an image on Gettys clearly came from a free-er source, all the better; we use that free-er source if that is possible. (keeping in mind that we also may be talking commercial works of photographers that have also used Gettys licensing, that would still be an NFCC#2 problem). --MASEM (t) 23:49, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Just because an image is on Getty doesn't mean they own it. They like to acquire free images, including the ones from Commons. Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:19, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- Oh, that is absolutely true. We could not turn to a Getty's image on the moment Kim passed away to use as non-free for that exact reason: NFCC#2 still is needed. But based on the amount of searching we have done in the past for a free image of Kim, we know there exists non-free copyrighted images that are not press corps images, which can be used without NFCC#2 violations; my point is that in the case of Kim, we have it well-documented on the never-ending search for a free image, an area of discussion absent on most other BLP pages, and thus would justify a very short period before adding non-free. --MASEM (t) 18:08, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- My point about "respect for commercial opportunities" is orthogonal to the 'diligent efforts to find a free image' one. I would argue that adding a non-free photograph of Kim immediately after he dies would be using the copyright holder's work at the exact moment when its market value has spiked and is more likely to fail a copyright infringement four factors analysis. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 18:01, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
- Only if there have been clear efforts prior to death to find a free image with no luck. The bulk of the time, no one has expended the effort so after death, there needs to be some reasonable attempt (hence waiting 30 days). But, say, we know extensive effort has been made for Kim Jong-un that should he die, there would be almost no question of adding a non-free the next day. --MASEM (t) 03:00, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- 90 days seems fine to me if we're basing it on the assumption that article was created after the subject died. However, many BLPs have been without images for years and it seems good faith to assume that someone may have been looking for such an image since the article was created. Does that need to be taken into account? For example of this, see File talk:A. A. Gill BBC 2012.jpg. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:49, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- As there are, even in this Internet age, still a number of publications that publish on a quarterly basis (e.g. obituaries in some academic journals), I see some support for 90 days, though I still think that one month would capture most of the commercially valuable usage. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 16:24, 13 March 2017 (UTC)
Sounds to me that the timing criterion is the most important and most definite focus to amend criterion #10 for Acceptable use of images. Unsure about efforts to find a free image or convert unfree image into a free image. However, other criteria would likely need some incubation but would be unsuitable for the upcoming RFC. To work on other criteria, we can do that at another RFC. If we retry to ask others what criteria for "irreplaceable" image of deceased person should be, that would go nowhere.
Here's my working statement for the RfC (just for the timing criterion):
Past discussions about non-free images of deceased persons have not resulted in improved criteria. The images have been removed and/or then reinserted. Our current rule about images of deceased is this shown in Wikipedia:Non-free content#Acceptable use:
10. Pictures of deceased persons, in articles about that person, provided that ever obtaining a free close substitute is not reasonably likely. Note that in the case the image is from a press agency or photo agency (e.g., AP, Corbis or Getty Images) and is not itself the subject of critical commentary it is assumed automatically to fail "respect for commercial opportunity".
To amend the criterion #10 of "Acceptable use" of images, what timing between a person's death and the time to upload an "irreplaceable" image of that person shall it be?
If the above needs some more work, what are your suggestions to amend the above proposal for RFC? --George Ho (talk) 03:21, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Why do we need an RFC? This is rather uncontroversial, and just seeking more exacting details like a time period. --MASEM (t) 04:04, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oh... if uncontroversial, shall I update the guideline right away then? Well... I see some editors adding an image of Kim Jong-nam soon after his death. George Ho (talk) 04:21, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- As soon as we put in hard numbers, it will be gamed. The fact that we wait some time after death for non-free is generally accepted, the exact time in question and depends on a number of conditions, none which require an RFC to figure out how to word and include if necessary. (I do note that reacting to make changes in policy when you have run-ins with admins or other editors, even if you're in the right, can be seen as overreacting). --MASEM (t) 05:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- I don't know which "depends" you refer to. If you were referring to the case-by-case method, the method is no longer working for such images anymore. Meanwhile, I'm brainstorming "a number of conditions", like level of appearance and creation of an article. George Ho (talk) 19:49, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- As soon as we put in hard numbers, it will be gamed. The fact that we wait some time after death for non-free is generally accepted, the exact time in question and depends on a number of conditions, none which require an RFC to figure out how to word and include if necessary. (I do note that reacting to make changes in policy when you have run-ins with admins or other editors, even if you're in the right, can be seen as overreacting). --MASEM (t) 05:53, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Oh... if uncontroversial, shall I update the guideline right away then? Well... I see some editors adding an image of Kim Jong-nam soon after his death. George Ho (talk) 04:21, 14 March 2017 (UTC)
- Comment: This bold edit by 24.151.10.165 does seem to represent a "hard number" change that Masem is cautioning against making. Is everyone OK with this? If not, then we should probably undo and discuss some more. If it is OK, then it seems just like the kind of thing that will be able to deal with differences in opinion over such non-free use like the one at Trisha Brown and User talk:Stephen#Trisha Brown. Pinging Stephen and Beyond My Ken so that they are aware of this possible change. -- Marchjuly (talk) 02:48, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- This seems like a back-handed way to continue to limit non-free images even after a person dies, when one of the primary reasons non-free images are rarely allowed for living persons is that the possibility still exists -- even when the person is a recluise, has retired to private life, and is rarely photographed -- of photographs of that person being made, however minimal that possibility is. Is the suggestion being made that for 90 days after a person dies, it's still possible for images to be made of them? If not, then this proposal needs to be rejected in its entirety as completely contrary to WMF policy. Beyond My Ken (talk) 02:53, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- 99% of the time, people have made little effort to try to find free images of a person while they are living, whether this is scouring Flickr, trying to find photo ops, or approaching the person or people close to ask for a free image. As soon as that person dies, that should not be taken as a sign that non-free is immediately allowed; we want editors to try to seek out the free image first, and 90 days reflects a reasonable amount of time to wait for friends and family to have their period of mourning and approach them to get older photos in free content licenses as well as to seek out other options. After that point, and there has been some reasonable effort to find a free image, then a non-free would be reasonable. Of course, as in the case of Kim Jong-un, if there has been significant efforts for a free image while they were living and then the person dies, this time can be eliminated. We simply don't want people to think "oh, dead now, let's immediately jump to non-free!" as that's sloppy thinking w.r.t. the non-free resolution policy. --MASEM (t) 03:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- Umm... I'm convinced by Masem that "hard numbering" is... hard to determine. Nevertheless, due to recent conducts lately, I think updating is overdue. BTW, May I revert the bold move then? --George Ho (talk) 05:10, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
- Marchjuly, may you or I revert the bold change? George Ho (talk) 23:32, 24 March 2017 (UTC)
- @George Ho: Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. That would seem OK per WP:STATUSQUO unless anyone objects. @Masem, Hammersoft, and 24.151.10.165: Do any of you object to this? -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:15, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's fine. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:17, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Reverted since consensus is clearly not established as I had thought. I still think this would serve as a useful minimalist bright-line rule that would eliminate much of the problem with edit warring at the time of an article subject's death. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 15:05, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- That's fine. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:17, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- @George Ho: Sorry for not getting back to you sooner. That would seem OK per WP:STATUSQUO unless anyone objects. @Masem, Hammersoft, and 24.151.10.165: Do any of you object to this? -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:15, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- 99% of the time, people have made little effort to try to find free images of a person while they are living, whether this is scouring Flickr, trying to find photo ops, or approaching the person or people close to ask for a free image. As soon as that person dies, that should not be taken as a sign that non-free is immediately allowed; we want editors to try to seek out the free image first, and 90 days reflects a reasonable amount of time to wait for friends and family to have their period of mourning and approach them to get older photos in free content licenses as well as to seek out other options. After that point, and there has been some reasonable effort to find a free image, then a non-free would be reasonable. Of course, as in the case of Kim Jong-un, if there has been significant efforts for a free image while they were living and then the person dies, this time can be eliminated. We simply don't want people to think "oh, dead now, let's immediately jump to non-free!" as that's sloppy thinking w.r.t. the non-free resolution policy. --MASEM (t) 03:06, 22 March 2017 (UTC)
- I do think we should add some numbers but I don't think it should be hard. We should adopt the same type of principle on WP:BLP that describes how long after a person's death that BLP applies which its it anywhere from 3 months to 2 years. HEre, that logic should be applied to how normally visible the person was. If a major celebrity dies, validating if there are any existing free images will be rather easy, so the time can be shorter; for a notable but obscure author, that could take much longer. We want to encourage at least a month, but don't want editors waiting until exactly 31 days to post a non-free claiming one could not be found. There's a lot of subjectivity to this. On the otherside, I would say any person who has been dead longer than 6 months, and editors show at least some attempt as free-hunting, then there should be no problem using a non-free. --MASEM (t) 15:14, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- I largely agree with Masem's proposal. We need different handling for different situations, so any numbers should be in the form of guidance, not "Wait exactly this many days and then go for it." Seraphimblade Talk to me 15:46, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- I do not disagree with the points raised by MASEM and Seraphimblade, it is just difficult to draft such a flexible rule that will also deal with the edit-warring at time of death problems and the drive-by additions of images at time of death alluded to in the discussion above. I do also sincerely believe that we are currently not sufficiently considering the potential market effect on copyright holders at the exact moment their images have become more valuable. I think that a hard floor of one month--one month should cover the publishing cycle of most publications that publish obituaries and, not coincidentally, should cover the majority of image additions by editors who have not sufficiently searched for free alternatives--would be administrable by editors patrolling image additions, with additional guidance information added. Here is a first attempt (anybody, please, suggest alternatives/edits): "Note: As the period immediately following a person's demise is likely to see an increased demand for licensing non-free images for obituaries, no new non-free images of such person may be included before one month (31 days) after the date of such person's death. Editors are also encouraged to document the efforts they make to locate free alternatives on the article's talk page and, so as to maximize the possibility of any editor locating a free image, are encouraged not to add a new non-free image before 90 days after such person's death." 24.151.10.165 (talk) 16:59, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that NFCC#2 still holds: press corps images are not allowed to be used for this purpose. --MASEM (t) 19:45, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- While we have an absolute ban on using press agency images for this purpose which removes the likeliest candidates for infringement from consideration, it is not only press agency photos that have potential market value. While our use is non-commercial, the fourth fair use factor still requires considering the effect of the use on the "potential" market for the image, not as an absolute bar but as perhaps the most important factor. See The Effect of the Use Upon the Potential Market ("Another important fair use factor is whether your use deprives the copyright owner of income or undermines a new or potential market for the copyrighted work."). 24.151.10.165 (talk) 20:12, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Key is the exact text of NFCC#2 "Respect for commercial opportunities. Non-free content is not used in a manner that is likely to replace the original market role of the original copyrighted material." It captures exactly your concern. --MASEM (t) 20:22, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- If we are in agreement that NFCC#2 would prohibit adding any non-free image of the deceased to an article about the deceased during the time period when a copyright holder might reasonably be able to license the image for use in obituary coverage, my concern has been captured exactly. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 20:32, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Key is the exact text of NFCC#2 "Respect for commercial opportunities. Non-free content is not used in a manner that is likely to replace the original market role of the original copyrighted material." It captures exactly your concern. --MASEM (t) 20:22, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- While we have an absolute ban on using press agency images for this purpose which removes the likeliest candidates for infringement from consideration, it is not only press agency photos that have potential market value. While our use is non-commercial, the fourth fair use factor still requires considering the effect of the use on the "potential" market for the image, not as an absolute bar but as perhaps the most important factor. See The Effect of the Use Upon the Potential Market ("Another important fair use factor is whether your use deprives the copyright owner of income or undermines a new or potential market for the copyrighted work."). 24.151.10.165 (talk) 20:12, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- Keep in mind that NFCC#2 still holds: press corps images are not allowed to be used for this purpose. --MASEM (t) 19:45, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- I do not disagree with the points raised by MASEM and Seraphimblade, it is just difficult to draft such a flexible rule that will also deal with the edit-warring at time of death problems and the drive-by additions of images at time of death alluded to in the discussion above. I do also sincerely believe that we are currently not sufficiently considering the potential market effect on copyright holders at the exact moment their images have become more valuable. I think that a hard floor of one month--one month should cover the publishing cycle of most publications that publish obituaries and, not coincidentally, should cover the majority of image additions by editors who have not sufficiently searched for free alternatives--would be administrable by editors patrolling image additions, with additional guidance information added. Here is a first attempt (anybody, please, suggest alternatives/edits): "Note: As the period immediately following a person's demise is likely to see an increased demand for licensing non-free images for obituaries, no new non-free images of such person may be included before one month (31 days) after the date of such person's death. Editors are also encouraged to document the efforts they make to locate free alternatives on the article's talk page and, so as to maximize the possibility of any editor locating a free image, are encouraged not to add a new non-free image before 90 days after such person's death." 24.151.10.165 (talk) 16:59, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
I'm going to establish "arbitrary break" for easier navigation. Seems to me that we can narrowly focus on inserting non-free images in existing BLPs at the time of a person's death. How long should a BLP exist until a person's death, and when will an editor insert a non-free noncommercial image? I hope I phrased it right. George Ho (talk) 21:36, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
- To my thinking, the answer should be "No less than thirty days following death, and once reasonable efforts to locate a free image have demonstrably failed." I think that second part is crucial. Right now, people think death is an automatic reason to use a nonfree image. But before we do that, we'd need to see if there are either existing free images, or copyright holders of images who would be willing to release them as such. If someone makes a good faith effort to do that, and fails, then and only then can we figure that there isn't a realistic possibility of getting a free image and justify use of a nonfree. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:39, 1 April 2017 (UTC)
- But if there were free images, why wouldn't one have been found before the subject's death? Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
- If there is to be a time limit, it needs to be a precise number. A month is imprecise given that could mean between 28 and 31 days. My own preference would be a longer period such as the 90 days suggested somewhere above because I don't see a need to rush to get a photo into an article in the same way as Wikinews might. Green Giant (talk) 00:37, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- Wikinews's take on "fair use" is more restricted, actually. Back on topic, I see "one month" and "90 days" after death as suggestions. Looks like a consensus is almost split on being precise. George Ho (talk) 13:19, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
- If there is to be a time limit, it needs to be a precise number. A month is imprecise given that could mean between 28 and 31 days. My own preference would be a longer period such as the 90 days suggested somewhere above because I don't see a need to rush to get a photo into an article in the same way as Wikinews might. Green Giant (talk) 00:37, 7 April 2017 (UTC)
- But if there were free images, why wouldn't one have been found before the subject's death? Hawkeye7 (talk) 22:13, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
Restarting discussion
Restarting this to bring up the case of Kim Jong-nam and File:Kim jong nam.jpg. Image uploaded a few days after his murder. This is a well-known person who was living in exile so there might have been a number of opportunities for a freely licensed image to have been created. He was killed while waiting for a commercial flight in a major international aiprort and even has visited some fairly well-known public places such as Tokyo Disneyland. This does not seem to be a person who lived in hiding out of fear of being seen, but rather someone who appeared in public quite a bit. How would what has been discussed above pertain to an image such as this? FWIW, I'm not attempting to get the file deleted out of process; I just think discussing it might help us reach a resolution regarding this matter. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:39, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- It appears that that image is a cropped version of an Agence France-Presse image (here's a BBC link crediting to AFP) and thus runs afoul of the press agency photo ban of WP:NFC#UUI #7. Even if it did not run afoul of this explicit ban, running a photo here simultaneously with commercial obituary coverage using that same photo strikes me as a non-free image "used in a manner that is likely to replace the original market role of the original copyrighted material". A month or so after the death, using a non-press agency photo would not raise the same issue of potentially displacing commercial obituary coverage but other concerns that it would be worthwhile for our project to look longer for a free alternative might still be of concern to many. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 15:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- Time-wise or not, we can't use press corp photos for any reason, unless the photo itself is the subject of commentary. As such, I've put it to FFD for deletion. --MASEM (t) 17:33, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- Just making explicit that I agree with this as regards press agency photos. 24.151.10.165 (talk) 18:03, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- Time-wise or not, we can't use press corp photos for any reason, unless the photo itself is the subject of commentary. As such, I've put it to FFD for deletion. --MASEM (t) 17:33, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- As long as it was known he readily ventured in public, then the standard "wait" time should be applied. --MASEM (t) 17:38, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
- Masem, why not go for the RfC on "hard numbering"? That way, there won't be edit warring further. George Ho (talk) 03:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)
- Hammersoft, thoughts? George Ho (talk) 07:43, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- I find interest in Masem's 15:14, 29 March 2017 comments above with respect to BLP. Far too often, various niche areas of Wikipedia that should have the same/similar rules to other areas in fact do not have similar rules. I think whatever the BLP approach is should be the approach here. They both trod similar territory. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:22, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- What I would suggest, simply to encode something, is a FOOTNOTE to allowable uses #10, with the text being: Editors should not immediately upload non-free images of deceased persons upon their death. Instead, editors are expected to seek out existing free imagery that made have been made before the death, or if possible engage with relatives and friends of the person to see if they can offer free images, allowing for some period of mourning. In lieu of any documented effort to find such pictures, it is suggested that editors wait about 90 days from the date of death before uploading an acceptable non-free image. However, there are reasonable exceptions to this that may shorten this waiting time, such as well-documented efforts that were made prior to the person's death to find free imagery (such as has been made at Talk:Kim Jong-Un). Editors should also consider the time applicability of the biographies of living persons policy to the recently deceased; once BLP clearly no longer applies to a deceased person, then an acceptable non-free image (assume no free one exists by that point) is allowed. --MASEM (t) 17:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- Thoughts on Masem's proposal, Hammersoft? --George Ho (talk) 22:38, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
- Wording needs to be cleaned/tightened ("made have been made" -> "may have been made", link to KJU talk page should probably go to one of the RfCs, etc.), but I think it's headed in the right direction, especially with regards to tying it into BLP. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:43, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
- Some or many others would disagree with the "90 days from the date of death" thing and wanted shorter waiting period. For the proposal, may you
underlineit and then tell those who disagree to suggest alternative waiting periods in the next proposal discussion, i.e. RFC? This is the most crucial part of the proposal. George Ho (talk) 16:02, 27 April 2017 (UTC); edited. 16:04, 27 April 2017 (UTC)
- Some or many others would disagree with the "90 days from the date of death" thing and wanted shorter waiting period. For the proposal, may you
- Thoughts on Masem's proposal, Hammersoft? --George Ho (talk) 22:38, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Also pinging Hawkeye7, Green Giant, and Seraphimblade. --George Ho (talk) 19:27, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- I'd still stand by the fact that it shouldn't be "wait and then upload". The uploader should need to show that efforts have been made to find a free image, and have failed, even if the individual died twenty years ago. That could include searching, and contacting copyright holders of nonfree media to see if they'd be willing to freely license it (I think we could skip the ones where we know there's no chance, like Getty and such). Once you can show you've tried and failed to get a free image, then and only then can you upload a nonfree. The waiting period should be in addition to the requirement to try for a free release. Seraphimblade Talk to me 19:42, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- Is it okay for me to do the RfC on this, Seraphimblade? Masem is proposing an amendment above to the guideline. George Ho (talk) 19:58, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- @George Ho: Don't need my permission. If you think the wording is hammered out enough for an RfC, have at it, but let's make sure we have the proposal we want to make nailed down first. Seraphimblade Talk to me 20:14, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- There is a aspect of NFC that editors should always be trying to replace non-free with free: grabbing works that have recently fallen into PD, working to get free licenses, etc. And the idea that editors should show some effort (documenting on talk pages) that a free version was impossible to find, allowing the non-free image to be used. However, this is going to be difficult to enforce because if all an editor has to do is report "I tried and failed", they may have not done any effort at all. I think we assume good faith implicitly that if you have uploaded a non-free, you have attempted to find a free or get a free license without luck; if many of your uploads for non-free are found to have been easily replaced by free by doing the implied bit of legwork, that may be a behavioral problem to block that user from uploading non-frees. (Also, we cannot expect third-parties to necessarily license works for free, unless we know from previous attempts they have been willing to do so).
- So for most deceased people, this implied language is fine; it is for the recently deceased that we know if you upload the image the same day as the death, you haven't done any legwork. Requiring editors to either clearly demonstrate an attempt to find free or otherwise wait out 90 days is a reasonably safe test. I have found that if you put up a lede image-less article of a deceased people, someone is going to try to find a photo for that person, which implies there will be a search for free during that 90 day period. It's not perfect, but it is a reasonable buffer to prevent obvious NFC abuse. --MASEM (t) 20:59, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- Use impatience to our advantage. Okay, I like that. I'm good with just making it 90 days then, it's a very valid point that people will want an image sooner and so may on their own pull out the stops to find or get free ones. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:03, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- Seraphimblade,
I created a draft RFC discussion (not yet started).Any suggestions to improve the draft RFC before I start the actual one? George Ho (talk) 03:29, 4 May 2017 (UTC); edited. 06:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC) - Draft #1 or Draft #2? Which is better but needs more improvements? --George Ho (talk) 06:10, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
- I could go for
Draft #3, but I like Draft #4 better. George Ho (talk) 15:32, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
- Seraphimblade,
- Use impatience to our advantage. Okay, I like that. I'm good with just making it 90 days then, it's a very valid point that people will want an image sooner and so may on their own pull out the stops to find or get free ones. Seraphimblade Talk to me 21:03, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Marchjuly, Aspects, This is Paul, Beyond My Ken, and Stephen: Your thoughts about Masem's proposal? George Ho (talk) 01:54, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
- Is it okay for me to do the RfC on this, Seraphimblade? Masem is proposing an amendment above to the guideline. George Ho (talk) 19:58, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
Started the RFC: #RfC: Waiting time period to upload acceptable non-free images of deceased persons. George Ho (talk) 19:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Meeting the contextual significance criterion
I think the sentence "For example, to allow identification of music albums, books, etc., only an image of the front cover art of the object is normally used; .... ." in WP:NFC#Meeting the contextual significance criterion might need some tweaking because there is not really a clear distinction made between main infobox use and use in other sections of an article or other sections of other articles. With respect to cover art, WP:NFC#cite_note#3 seems quite clear that use for "identification" is OK in stand-alone article about the work in question, but a much stronger justification is needed for other articles. A new editor unfamiliar with NFCCP might read the above sentence and assume that non-free use of cover art is acceptable anywhere as long as the file is being used to identify the work which is being discussed. Such an interpretation could be one reason why so many non-free cover art files have been inappropriately added to articles over the years; editors assume that discussing/mentioning an album means it's OK to show the cover identifying the album. -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:30, 28 April 2017 (UTC)
- I think the above also needs to clarified with respect to non-free images of works of art, such as paintings and sculptures, and non-free images cover art being used in the articles of the individuals who actually created the cover. Both items 1 and 7 of WP:NFCI make mention of critical commentary, but it seems that some people assume that this includes the adding non-free content as simply a representative example of the creator's work and is not something specifically limited to a discussion of the particular non-free image itself. I've come across non-free book and album covers as well as non-free images of paintings, etc. being used either as the primary means of identification (sometimes in the main infobox) in articles about artists, etc. or being just added as representative examples of work without any (sourced) discussion of the particular piece of work. In many of these cases, the "critical commentary" about the work in question is just a mention by name or some other content which does not require the reader actually see the non-free image to be understood. The main purpose of non-free use in these cases appear simply to "identify" and "illustrate" some examples of the artist's work. If this kind of non-free use is now acceptable, then the critical commentary aspect in items 1 and 7 as well as in WP:NFC#cite_note-3 and possibly item 9 of WP:NFC#UUI should be tweaked accordingly to reflect the way these files are now often being used; if it's not, then maybe it should be clarified to state that "illustrative of a particular technique or school" is based upon the assumption that non-free use is only appropriate when the critical commentary is specific to the relevant non-free image itself and the particular image does illustrate the "particular technique or school". -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:59, 8 May 2017 (UTC)
RfC: Waiting time period to upload acceptable non-free images of deceased persons
- The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The current rule about images of deceased persons is:
10. Pictures of deceased persons, in articles about that person, provided that ever obtaining a free close substitute is not reasonably likely. Note that in the case the image is from a press agency or photo agency (e.g., AP, Corbis or Getty Images) and is not itself the subject of critical commentary it is assumed automatically to fail "respect for commercial opportunity".
Seeking a free image of a person has been encouraged. However, the appropriate time to upload a non-free image of a deceased person has not yet been decided. Also, the above rule lacks a supplement or footnote. Which proposal do you support or oppose as the supplement or footnote to the above rule? Why or why not? If you support a proposal but do not agree with its suggested waiting time period, what do you suggest is the best waiting time to upload an acceptable non-free image of a deceased person? If you support neither of the existing proposals, what is your alternative proposal? See more background at "Wikipedia talk:Non-free content#Criteria needed for using images of deceased persons?" --George Ho (talk) 19:16, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
Masem's proposal
- Proposed by Masem
“ | Editors should not immediately upload non-free images of deceased persons upon their death. Instead, editors are expected to seek out existing free imagery that may have been made before the death, or if possible engage with relatives and friends of the person to see if they can offer free images, allowing for some period of mourning. In lieu of any documented effort to find such pictures, it is suggested that editors wait about 90 days from the date of death before uploading an acceptable non-free image. However, there are reasonable exceptions to this that may shorten this waiting time, such as well-documented efforts that were made prior to the person's death to find free imagery (such as has been made at Talk:Kim Jong-un/Archive 5#Rfc: Use of non-free image). Editors should also consider the time applicability of the biographies of living persons policy to the recently deceased; once BLP clearly no longer applies to a deceased person, then an acceptable non-free image (assume no free one exists by that point) is allowed. | ” |
Support Masem's exact proposal
Support Masem's proposal but not 90 days
- If not 90 days from the date of death, when to upload a non-free image? Note that the proposal still retains this: "
there are reasonable exceptions to this that may shorten this waiting time
".
- I support the language of Masem's proposal, but prefer a less definite time period such as "2-3 months". Thryduulf (talk) 18:56, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose Masem's proposal
Proposal by IP 24.151.10.165
“ | As the period immediately following a person's demise is likely to see an increased demand for licensing non-free images for obituaries, no new non-free images of such person may be included before one month (31 days) after the date of such person's death. | ” |
Support exact proposal by 24.151.10.165
Support proposal by 24.151.10.165 but not 31 days
- If not 31 days from the date of death, when to upload a non-free image?
Oppose proposal by 24.151.10.165
Proposal by Beeblebrox
Status Quo: No new policy or guideline is needed
Support Beeblebrox's exact proposal
- Per all the support already in evidence for this position below. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:17, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
Oppose Beeblebrox's proposal
- Oppose. Policy is not needed, guidance is, as evidenced by the disruption the lack of guidelines cause (see Robert Miles et al). Thryduulf (talk) 18:15, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
(Insert alternative proposal)
Copy and paste the whole subsection and modify it for your own proposal
Support (Username)'s exact proposal
Support (Username)'s proposal but not ## days
- If not ## days from the date of death, when to upload a non-free image? (Make additional note if necessary.)
Oppose (Username)'s proposal
Threaded discussion
- You can discuss this RfC in this section.
- Oppose all proposals This RfC pre-supposes its own necessity. ("However, the appropriate time to upload a non-free image of a deceased person has not yet been decided. Also, the above rule lacks a supplement.). Why says that Wikipedia needs another rule or that this rule needs a supplement? How often is this a genuine problem, and why does it need to be addressed by a bright line rule? — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 19:37, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
What Malik Shabazz says. What's wrong with the way things have worked perfectly well for the past 16 years, of "if someone has uploaded an image which is potentially inappropriate take it to FFD and discuss it on a case-by-case basis"? Those claiming there's a problem that needs fixing need to provide some evidence of it; I've certainly not seen a recent uptick in inappropriate images being uploaded of recently deceased individuals. Any effort to formalize it to a 90-day (or whatever) period will just lead to gaming, and editors uploading images as soon as the deadline passes rather than bothering to search for alternatives. ‑ Iridescent 19:42, 6 May 2017 (UTC)Cancel that, just noticed this is another of George Ho's time-wasting exercises in pot-stirring—life's too short. ‑ Iridescent 19:46, 6 May 2017 (UTC)- Oppose all. Time has nothing to do with it. As soon as someone dies, obtaining a new free image becomes impossible. That's the only relevant change. Note that a check for free images is always required, and if a free image is ever found, the non-free image must be deleted. That comes from our non-free content criteria, which requires no free alternative. I see no reason for instruction creep here. ~ Rob13Talk 23:17, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose all This is an example of unneeded instruction creep. As Rob said, this is pretty much already covered by the NFCC anyway. While it's immensely preferable to get a photo through WP:COPYREQ, that isn't always possible and we don't need another rule telling us to wait longer. As with any non-free image, if it isn't appropriate (Getty image, NPOV issues), it should be taken up at FFD or the article's talk page. --AntiCompositeNumber (Leave a message) 23:23, 6 May 2017 (UTC)
- Comment. This issue does arise periodically in relation to WP:ITN nominations. User:TheRamblingMan, myself and possibly others have disputed the fair use of non-free images addes less than a day after death, but this has been seen as disruptive and does cause tension. I would prefer this as a guideline than a rule, but I do see that having such in writing will be of benefit. Thryduulf (talk) 19:01, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- @The Rambling Man: without camelcase this time. Thryduulf (talk) 19:02, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
*Comment the claim made above that "As soon as someone dies, obtaining a new free image becomes impossible." is patently absurd, illogical and incorrect. I have personally made requests of universities, websites, web hosts etc and people on Flickr to submit, or change licensing arrangements such that we can use images of those people who are recently deceased. What is this "new" image claim? Fair use isn't about "new images"? Uploading a picture of a dead person within hours or days is pure lazy, do some work, ask around, if you fail then perhaps we should consider fair use, and we absolutely need guidelines on this. We don't need a "after six months" rule, but we need a "justifiable and evidential efforts have been made to obtain a free image post-mortem". To argue against is absurd. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:07, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose all per WP:CREEP and the other reasons given above. Andrew D. (talk) 19:35, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
- As an example of why this is needed, File:Robert miles photo.jpg has been uploaded as fair use the day after the subject's death with no evidence of any attempts to source a free image. I've tagged it with {{di-disputed fair use rationale}} but I fully expect that to be challenged before the 7 days are up. Thryduulf (talk) 11:26, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
- Here is a real example of why we need some type of guidance Robert Miles - died today, non-free uploaded today, but no sign of any attempt to find a free replacement prior to his death. This is exactly what we don't want happening, but we have no place in the guideline to explain this. I will emphasize that I believed this should be a footnote, not part of the body because it does feel like CREEP, but we do need something. --MASEM (t) 13:10, 10 May 2017 (UTC)
- Adding an image when the person dies is exactly what we do want happening because that's when there is extra interest in the subject and so there will be a natural spike in readership and editing activity. The point of death marks the point at which fair use becomes applicable and that's nice and clear. What we don't want is additional bureaucracy and what we especially don't want is badgering of the subject's relatives and acquaintances when they are in mourning. Andrew D. (talk) 06:43, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Andrew Davidson, AntiCompositeNumber, and BU Rob13: I appreciate your opposition toward adding another rule as "instructional creep" and waiting period as unnecessary. If a rule is unnecessary "instructional creep", how else do we handle the recent removals of non-free images of deceased persons, like File:A. A. Gill BBC 2012.jpg (A. A. Gill) and File:Jill Saward BBC interview 2013.png (Jill Saward)? Also, there were cyclical removals and then reinsertions of the images of Helen Rollason, Reg Grundy, and Trisha Brown (which was reported at WP:ANI). Recently, Robert Miles image was removed but then reinserted and then taken to FFD. --George Ho (talk) 04:02, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Pinging also Malik Shabazz. George Ho (talk) 05:46, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- – Come to think of it, this RfC might prevent more edit warrings, even when the RfC would fail as unsuccessful. George Ho (talk) 07:33, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Andrew Davidson: death does not mark the point that fair use becomes acceptable because experience shows that many new images are uploaded after a persons death (pretty much the entire first page of Flikr results for "Robert Miles" DJ were uploaded since his death), the presence of a non-free image will discourage someone uploading one under a free liscence. Existing images can be reliscenced if the copyright holder is asked. NFC criterion 1 is not automatically met. Thryduulf (talk) 08:54, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- the presence of a non-free image will discourage someone uploading one under a free licence - [citation needed]. I doubt anyone who values free content would be discouraged from contributing an image they can freely license, by having a non-free image already in place; that argument does not make much sense, no matter how many times it is repeated as a mantra in NFC content discussion. Diego (talk) 10:11, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- The bulk of editors are not as well versed in the nuances of what a "free content" encyclopedia is compared to those replying in this thread. If they see a page has an image, they are very much unlikely going to think "oh, this is non-free, let me see if there is a free one". Instead they're going to go "Oh, there's an image. No more image work is needed." (And counter to that, they will see a bio/BLP page with a lack of image and upload one without thinking about free/non-free issues). --MASEM (t) 14:24, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- The Robert Miles article was read by about 200K people yesterday. We clearly have a need for good content right now and an image is an important element in this. The current image is tagged and a tag of some sort seems enough as a reminder that there is still an open issue. In the meantime, the current fair-use image should be retained to satisfy the immediate need. Andrew D. (talk) 10:16, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- The immediate need is for a high-quality free content encyclopaedia article. If fair use image could satisfy that need then we would allow fair use images on articles about living people who are currently in the news. Thryduulf (talk) 10:43, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- What about WP:NOTCOMPULSORY? WP:NOTCOMPULSORY says, "
Focus on improving the encyclopedia itself, rather than demanding more from other Wikipedians
". I wonder whether demanding a free image from others violates that. So is demanding a high-quality encyclopedia. --George Ho (talk) 14:45, 11 May 2017 (UTC)- A replaceable or otherwise invalid fair use image doesn't improve the encyclopaedia, it harms it in at least three ways:
- What about WP:NOTCOMPULSORY? WP:NOTCOMPULSORY says, "
- If people are edit-warring, report it at WP:AN3. If people are politely disagreeing over how the NFCC should be applied, nominate for FfD (note that the D stands for discussion) to get consensus one way or the other. Simple as that. ~ Rob13Talk 15:08, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- For the record, Rob, I've done that before. Sometimes, a result was "no action". --George Ho (talk) 16:07, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- It is not so much an issue that requires admin attention (Eg edit warring or the like), but one that leads to lazy handling of non-free media. We want editors not to presume that non-free can be used as they please, and instead put some thought and effort into finding free replacements; at the same time, we do recognize that the search for free replacement cannot go on indefinitely when the opportunity to make a free replacement has disappeared (eg the person died). Hence we want some language to set a reasonable time frame, but it should be taken as a rule of thumb and not a hard-set rule, hence again why I suggested language as a footnote that we can at least point to, rather than a rule to enforce. We're still going to have editors upload pics on the day a person died, we can't stop that but we can help educate users better when it is right to do that. --MASEM (t) 17:31, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- The immediate need is for a high-quality free content encyclopaedia article. If fair use image could satisfy that need then we would allow fair use images on articles about living people who are currently in the news. Thryduulf (talk) 10:43, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- the presence of a non-free image will discourage someone uploading one under a free licence - [citation needed]. I doubt anyone who values free content would be discouraged from contributing an image they can freely license, by having a non-free image already in place; that argument does not make much sense, no matter how many times it is repeated as a mantra in NFC content discussion. Diego (talk) 10:11, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose all per WP:CREEP. Unnecessary bureaucracy. If someone wants to write a userspace essay about what they feel should be done to find free replacement photos, they're free to, but otherwise, the existing rule is fine. SnowFire (talk) 21:54, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose all per WP:CREEP and the other reasons given above. User Rob above puts it especially well.(talk) user:Al83tito 05:50, 16 May 2017 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Files for discussion/2017 May 10#File:United States Postal Service Logo.svg. Marchjuly (talk) 00:37, 11 May 2017 (UTC)Template:Z48 -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:37, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
NFCC#1 exemptions for BLP privacy reasons
I understand that there are a few written (and unwritten) exemptions allowed for WP:NFCC#1. I am wondering if there is also an allowance given to the wishes of the subject of the article. Suppose the subject of a BLP has specifically asked that a photo showing them not be added to the article for reasons of privacy. Even though the individual does seem to occassionally appear in public at official events, they still do not want an image of them being used in the article. Would it be acceptable in such a case to use another non-free image, say a non-free logo of a business, etc. owned by the individual, as the means of primary information in the main infobox?
The specific example I am thinking of is CGP Grey. Grey is a YouTube personality who has requrested on the article's talk page that no image of him be added to the article. In order to respect his wishes, a non-free logo of Grey's YouTube channel was added to the main infobox, but it was deleted per File talk:CGPGreySymbol.png. The same logo was then reuploaded the PD-logo jpg File:CGPGrey Logo.jpg, but that has also been deleted. Is there any possible way to justify the use of a non-free logo, etc. to serve as the primary means of identifying Grey? The closest I could think of would be trying to use non-free cover art to identify an artist, author, musician in a BLP about the concerned individual, but this is something not typically considered acceptabe per items 8 and 9 of WP:NFC#UUI. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:14, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- If the subject has requested on the article's talk page that no image of him be added to the article, then why hasn't he donated a low-resolution logo image? Then we don't have to worry about an exception to the non-free criteria, because we have a free image to use. —C.Fred (talk) 01:21, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- I have asked the same question as well. A freely licensed image would not be subject to the NFCCP; it would then become a question of whether it is appropriate contextually to use the logo in the main infobox as the primary means on identifying the individual himself. If the subject of the article was the YouTube channel, then using a non-free version of the channel's logo would seem acceptable; the problem, at least in my opinion, is that the article is written as if it is a BLP with the subject being Grey, which makes the non-free use of the logo questionable as a means of identification. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:31, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- I'm slightly puzzled by the thought that because we can't use a free image of him, we need to use a non-free logo image. I'm not convinced that a logo would meet NFCC#8, never mind NFCC#1. A logo wouldn't be necessary if we could use a free image; I can't see why it becomes necessary when we can't use a free image. Josh Milburn (talk) 01:36, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- The case for avoiding a free image even if the person is public I think would reasonable privacy requests; if they are making a concerted effort to avoid public appearances even though they do go out in public and try just to blend it, and we know that's what the do, that's arguably the same as a recluse person. I do agree that a non-free logo is not an appropriate replacement if the page is about the person; if it were about their YT channel, that might be different, but we seem to be talking about a specific person. And yes, it would make a lot of sense that if he wants to avoid a public image on WP, he should reciprocate with licensing a free image of his logo for use, but we can't force that. --MASEM (t) 01:48, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Let's make one thing absolutely clear: NFCC does not apply to free images. Several Olympic and Paralympic athletes have asked for images to be deleted and my answer is always no. As far as the sports administrators are concerned, it's in their contract, and they can have their photo on Wikipedia or play for another country. Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:59, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- If free images of CGPGrey exist then we can legally use them in the article and we cannot use non-free images as a replacement. If we choose not to use the free image (for whatever reason, and whether that decision is correct or otherwise) that doesn't change anything about using a non-free image - as the criteria are "replaceable" and "could be created" not "replaced" or "has been created". Thryduulf (talk) 10:51, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- This is actually not as clear-cut; whether a non-free image is replaceable depends on "for what use". If a non-free image is included for a specific usage, and known free images wouldn't work for the same usage, then including the non-free image is allowed per policy.
- In this particular case, if consensus were to be established that "identifying the author without revealing his face" was important for the article, then the free image wouldn't prevent usage of the non-free logo, as the image couldn't work as a replacement for that purpose. I'm not saying this should happen in this case; I agree with Masem that the logo for the channel doesn't automatically work as identification for the youtuber, and consensus should be established first for the need to use it this way. Diego (talk) 12:29, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- The case for avoiding a free image even if the person is public I think would reasonable privacy requests; if they are making a concerted effort to avoid public appearances even though they do go out in public and try just to blend it, and we know that's what the do, that's arguably the same as a recluse person. I do agree that a non-free logo is not an appropriate replacement if the page is about the person; if it were about their YT channel, that might be different, but we seem to be talking about a specific person. And yes, it would make a lot of sense that if he wants to avoid a public image on WP, he should reciprocate with licensing a free image of his logo for use, but we can't force that. --MASEM (t) 01:48, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- I'm slightly puzzled by the thought that because we can't use a free image of him, we need to use a non-free logo image. I'm not convinced that a logo would meet NFCC#8, never mind NFCC#1. A logo wouldn't be necessary if we could use a free image; I can't see why it becomes necessary when we can't use a free image. Josh Milburn (talk) 01:36, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- I have asked the same question as well. A freely licensed image would not be subject to the NFCCP; it would then become a question of whether it is appropriate contextually to use the logo in the main infobox as the primary means on identifying the individual himself. If the subject of the article was the YouTube channel, then using a non-free version of the channel's logo would seem acceptable; the problem, at least in my opinion, is that the article is written as if it is a BLP with the subject being Grey, which makes the non-free use of the logo questionable as a means of identification. -- Marchjuly (talk) 01:31, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- This page of course is for discussion of non-free images. We wouldn't use a non-free image of this person as he is alive. As you note, we have some unwritten rules about the use of non-free images. One of those is that we supposedly permit the use of non-free images in the case of noted recluses. This creates a bit of a conflict; a recluse wants to be private, yet we allow non-free images of a person who wants to remain private. Hmm.
- In abstract, this sort of case is one we do not see very often. Not surprisingly, there's little in the way of direct policy. We do, however, have Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#Presumption_in_favor_of_privacy. In abstract, I think if we have the subject of a BLP making an effort to hide their true identity either in prose or image, we have a need for presumption in favor of privacy.
- In this specific case; we have the subject of a BLP making multiple requests [1][2] to not have an image of him appear on the article. Given that his likeness is not connected to his brand identity, and that identity is what he is best known for, it is hard to make a case that we must have an image of him him order to satiate the needs of the casual reader, nor do we need an image in order to eliminate confusion a reader might have that they have arrived at the correct article. In short, we don't need his image to be encyclopedic. --Hammersoft (talk) 14:08, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed with Hammer on this point. Having his logo also starts getting into a weird "we're promoting his brand" position, which I don't think we should be in the business of either. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 14:11, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Which makes me wonder if we do need to establish language in IUP or non-free that "inclusions of images is not mandatory/compulsatory" in considering broad classes of articles where images are typically used, like infoboxes for films/etc., BLPs, . Just because there's a "space" for such images and that images are normally included, editors can opt for reasons to not include an image which should be respected akin to DATERET, using an infobox in the first, etc. This case feels like "We neeeeeed to have a image there!" when nothing in policy or guideline requires this. --MASEM (t) 14:21, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Our Wikipedia:Good article criteria requires that they be "illustrated, if possible, by images". Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Which arguably breaks NFC, unless, as I have interpreted in the past, take the "if possible" stance broadly. If there is a free image that is completely appropriate to use, and you have no images already, the GA reviewer absolutely should point this out. But adding a non-free just to illustrate a GA (or FA for that matter) where there's a balance of "if possible". I've not yet seen this provision in the GA requirements demand the inclusion of non-free just to met it, so its not yet been a problem. --MASEM (t) 21:56, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Our Wikipedia:Good article criteria requires that they be "illustrated, if possible, by images". Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:21, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Which makes me wonder if we do need to establish language in IUP or non-free that "inclusions of images is not mandatory/compulsatory" in considering broad classes of articles where images are typically used, like infoboxes for films/etc., BLPs, . Just because there's a "space" for such images and that images are normally included, editors can opt for reasons to not include an image which should be respected akin to DATERET, using an infobox in the first, etc. This case feels like "We neeeeeed to have a image there!" when nothing in policy or guideline requires this. --MASEM (t) 14:21, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- What we do get a fair bit is requests from people who earn income from selling their image, who see "free" images as a threat to that income. They want us to use a more restricted image (usually a non-commercial or press kit one). NFCC#2 supports this, through its "respect for commercial opportunities" clause. Hawkeye7 (talk) 21:16, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed with Hammer on this point. Having his logo also starts getting into a weird "we're promoting his brand" position, which I don't think we should be in the business of either. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 14:11, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- Clarification: When I posted
Is there any possible way to justify the use of a non-free logo, etc. to serve as the primary means of identifying Grey?
, I was asking the question not because I wanted to use the non-free logo as indentification of Grey, but because others had been doing so based upon Grey's desire for privacy. I tagged the original non-free file as rfu because I felt it was being used in such a way and doing so was inappropriate. So, I agree with everyone suggesting that non-free logos should not be used in such a way. I also agree with the concerns made about promotional use, which is why I don't think even a freely licensed version of the logo should be used like this. I've seen quite a number of articles about authors, artists, etc., where someone has added non-free cover art or non-free pictures of artistic works to the main infobox in place of a picture of the individual. Not sure why they've done this. Maybe they are aware of WP:NFCC#1 or maybe they just feel (as also pointed out) that some kind of image is mandatory/permitted basd upon a WP:OTHERIMAGE kind of rationale. I've have read posts in various discussions wherean editor claims a is must be needed for an infobox because there wouldn't be|image=
if it wasn't. In some of these cases it may be possible to move the file to another section of the article, but in others you basically have no critical commentary of the work or cover art at all.
- I completely understand the desire to respect Grey's privacy, and if he doesn't want an image of him added to the article, then his wishes need to be given serious consideration. I also feel that the points made about not needing an image to be encyclopedic are also correct; Wikipedia can respect Grey's wishes about not adding an image of him to the article by simply not adding any image the main infobox. Grey may prefer that Wikipedia use his logo in the main infobox, but that seems to be a request which has less to do with privacy and more to do with promotion; therefore, Wikipedia is not really obligated to honor it. I don't think it's possible for Wikipedia to prevent someone from seeing Grey at some event, taking his picture, and then uploading it to Commons; there is in fact already such an image on Commons. Wikipedia can perhaps decide not to use that image in this article, but it can't stop the file from being used off Wikipedia or on other language Wikipedia, can it? -- Marchjuly (talk) 22:07, 11 May 2017 (UTC)
- The English Wikipedia can decide to use or not use any free image as it sees fit, but it can not control the use of such an image anywhere that is not the English Wikipedia, nor can it control who or what people take photographs of at events it does not run. The subject could, if they want, request the image be deleted from Commons, but the decision about whether to grant that request lies with the Commons community and I am not sufficiently familiar with their policies and guidelines, etc. in this regard to know how likely either outcome would be. Similarly the decision about whether to illustrate articles about the subject on other wikipedias rests entirely with the editors on those wikis (the French and Spanish wikipedias have no lead image, the Chinese and Indonesian wikipedias use a logo image; Wikidata links to the Commons category but has no image statement). No project can control how a free image is used outside that project, as long as the license terms are complied with. In jurisdictions where personality rights are a thing, the subject may have some control but exactly how much will vary. Thryduulf (talk) 22:34, 11 May 2017 (UTC)