Coat of Many Colours (talk | contribs) →Oppose: Agree |
|||
Line 120: | Line 120: | ||
:::::The change you are asking for requires us to change the licensing policy, which isn't going to happen. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 22:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
:::::The change you are asking for requires us to change the licensing policy, which isn't going to happen. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 22:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
||
::::::No the licensing policy allows this sort of use. No change is required there. [[User:Jmh649|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC) |
::::::No the licensing policy allows this sort of use. No change is required there. [[User:Jmh649|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC) |
||
::::::: Yes, that's my understanding too. The restriction to article-space comes from [[Wikipedia:Non-free_content_criteria_exemptions#Exemptions | Non-free content criteria $9]], which serves as the English Wikipedia's Exemption Doctrine Policy as envisaged by the Licensing Policy but is not itself the Licensing Policy nor does the Licensing Policy define the scope (except in general terms as minimal) and specifically not the location of exempted items . There's thus no need to change the licensing policy. [[User:Coat of Many Colours|Coat of Many Colours]] ([[User talk:Coat of Many Colours|talk]]) 19:52, 10 March 2014 (UTC) |
|||
* '''Oppose''', it is the partners choice to free anything they want and they know the rules. --[[User:ThurnerRupert|ThurnerRupert]] ([[User talk:ThurnerRupert|talk]]) 07:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
* '''Oppose''', it is the partners choice to free anything they want and they know the rules. --[[User:ThurnerRupert|ThurnerRupert]] ([[User talk:ThurnerRupert|talk]]) 07:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
||
* '''Oppose''' We are not here to plaster non-free logos everywhere. Wikipedia's [[m:Mission]] is to provide free content. Usage of non-free media in non-article space violates the core principals of both the mission and [[WP:NFCC]]. We limit the usage of non-free media to where absolutely necessary. Using non-free logos for a wikiproject goes against the very core of wikipedia and wikimedia is trying to do. We can provide a link to the article on the entity that we are partnering with if people do not recognize the name. We dont need to pollute free content with non-free logos that are being used decoratively. [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 13:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
* '''Oppose''' We are not here to plaster non-free logos everywhere. Wikipedia's [[m:Mission]] is to provide free content. Usage of non-free media in non-article space violates the core principals of both the mission and [[WP:NFCC]]. We limit the usage of non-free media to where absolutely necessary. Using non-free logos for a wikiproject goes against the very core of wikipedia and wikimedia is trying to do. We can provide a link to the article on the entity that we are partnering with if people do not recognize the name. We dont need to pollute free content with non-free logos that are being used decoratively. [[User:Werieth|Werieth]] ([[User talk:Werieth|talk]]) 13:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:52, 10 March 2014
Fair use (inactive) | ||||
|
Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
This page has archives. Sections older than 10 days may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 1 section is present. |
What is a "map"?
WP:NFC#UUI §4 lists, amongst a non-exhaustive list of examples, the case that a map from an atlas is not generally acceptable under NFC. I assume that this is because the region mapped exists and can be mapped by any surveyor, including a surveyor producing free content. This also assumes, rather less clearly, that regions of the Earth are equally visitable by all surveyors.
This "map" exclusion is being used here: Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_files/2014_February_23#File:Sectional_drawing_of_Hulsebos-Hesselman_engine.jpg to exclude a technical drawing of an obscure 1930s engine. No examples of this exceptionally rare engine are likely to exist, so redrawing such a drawing is impossible (let alone the aspect that design drawings aren't the same as sketches of the finished product).
Is this technical drawing a "map", thus excluded from NFC under that example? This seems, to my mind, a ridiculous extrapolation. Whatever the thoughts on whether this image meets NFC, or not, for any other reason, it's not because technical drawings are now to be considered as maps!
Incidentally, the drawing (and the rest of the content from that book) meets PD-UK. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:41, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- If it's just PD-UK and not PD-US, we have to treat it as non-free. So from that point of view, the point being made at the PUF is that it is a technical drawing - creative effort was made to assemble the drawing in the past, but the concepts of the engine cannot be copyrighted and it should be possible for someone to make a comparable drawing with a free license - maybe not with the same details but enough to show the concepts behind hit; this thus fails NFCC#1. The reason it is compared to a map is that in nearly all cases, map and geographic data can be recreated in a free manner ; only if the map included "creative" analysis such as the suggested example in UUI#4 about a contested border or the like would that may it impossible to recreate as a true free image. It is not a map, but the situation - where the picture is illustrating otherwise uncopyrightable information - is the same. --MASEM (t) 15:37, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Quick question...
The image File:GoingUnderScreenshot.jpg is currently used under a non-free use rationale for the article Going Under (2004 film). One of the actors who appeared in that film is Roger Rees who also appears in that image. Would it be stretching the fair use rationale to use that image in his BLP? We would ensure, of course, that it is properly credited as a screen-shot from the film but does it create issues that cannot be resolved with proper crediting? Stalwart111 12:27, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- It would violate WP:NFCC#1, as he is still alive. Werieth (talk) 13:13, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Even where the "equivalent" could only be gained by camping outside his house with a telephoto lens? I'm more than happy to accept your interpretation, I'm just wondering how "available" the alternate has to be. Stalwart111 20:35, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are scores of images on flickr from the last few years, demonstrating that this argument is just silly. He's an active performer, not J. D. Salinger. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- We can use those? That'd be great! Any chance you could point me toward a particular one? To be clear, it's not really an "argument" - I genuinely don't have a great understanding of these things and very rarely have anything to do with images. I didn't want to just go ahead and insert something for fear I'd get it wrong. Seems that fear was well-founded. Appreciate the advice either way. Stalwart111 22:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- No, we can't use those; none have an appropriate license. But they show that it wouldn't be so difficult for someone who wanted to create a free photo to take one. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 00:41, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- We can use those? That'd be great! Any chance you could point me toward a particular one? To be clear, it's not really an "argument" - I genuinely don't have a great understanding of these things and very rarely have anything to do with images. I didn't want to just go ahead and insert something for fear I'd get it wrong. Seems that fear was well-founded. Appreciate the advice either way. Stalwart111 22:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are scores of images on flickr from the last few years, demonstrating that this argument is just silly. He's an active performer, not J. D. Salinger. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Even where the "equivalent" could only be gained by camping outside his house with a telephoto lens? I'm more than happy to accept your interpretation, I'm just wondering how "available" the alternate has to be. Stalwart111 20:35, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Should be easier to take a photo of this guy than to take a photo of Kim Jong-un, and we do not accept non-free pictures of Kim Jong-un per WP:NFCC#1. The image therefore fails WP:NFCC#1. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:06, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- I've removed the image from the film as it doesn't contribute to the understanding of the film enough to warrant using as a non-free image in that article. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:08, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Getty Images
So this happened. I don't think anything is likely to change quickly, but is there anything that needs to be said on the page? __ E L A Q U E A T E 03:29, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't change anything directly - they want to use a version that embeds the image so that clicking on it takes you to Getty's - so these are going to be still treated as non-free. However, there are two direct consequences here:
- In terms of NFCC#2, Gettys images that would be under this "free to use" aspect for social media would likely no longer fail NFCC#2. This isn't all Gettys as the article states. However, this I would ask a WMF lawyer to double check before we clear it here.
- Someone - ideally the Foundation - should reach out and ask Gettys if they would give WP a blanket allowance to use Gettys stuff under a free CC-BY-SA (attribution kept), even if this has to mean that we have to credit Gettys in image captions directly. Or there are other ways that they would not be true free licenses but would be "freer" than they are presently.
- This would affect worldwide projects so I definitely the first step is to get WMF on board for how this affects image policies. --MASEM (t) 03:37, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Getty still requires people to pay for commercial use of the images, and you also have to pay if you can't use an iframe. Wikipedia can only accept fair use claims if they also work for commercial reusers, and Wikipedia can't use iframes as it would be against the privacy policy. Getty also decides the pixel size of the image, and the only allowed pixel size generally seems to be too big for Wikipedia articles. It therefore changes nothing with regard to Wikipedia's abilities to use Getty's images, as Getty still demands you to pay for the image in all other contexts.
- I would say that there are three kinds of image users out there:
- Newspapers and similar services: These pay for Getty's services and will have to continue to do so.
- Users who do not understand copyright law and who just Google for images and insert those on pages: These get fines for violating Getty's copyright, and these users will likely receive fines in the future too as they won't understand that they need to include the HTML code which includes Getty's iframe with the credit line.
- Users who understand copyright: These do not use Getty's images but instead use freely licensed images from Commons, Flickr and other services and by attributing the source advertise for websites containing free images.
- I'm guessing that the problem for Getty is the third group of people. Getty knows that it can't get any money from these people and are also worried about the advertisements for Commons and Flickr. If the first group of people becomes aware of freely licensed images, this means less money for Getty as these users may use other people's images for free. If freely licensed images start popping up in Google Images searches, then Getty won't be able to send as many fines for copyright violations to people as it currently is doing, again meaning less money for Getty. Therefore, I guess that Getty wants to prevent advertisements for freely licensed sources (to make group one less aware of them) and limit their use (so that group two doesn't find those images instead of Getty's images in Google searches).
- This thing seems to be directed to people in group 3: Getty knows that these people won't pay Getty any money, but is hoping that this feature will make some people in the group use their images, thereby reducing the exposure to freely licensed images for people in groups 1 and 2.
- Also, it seems that only some images are available for free iframe use. For example, this one allows iframe use, but this one does not. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:49, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- This is why I'd like to have a WMF legal input on this matter before we make changes. --MASEM (t) 15:02, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Stefan totally upriver as usual his point 3 (he just makes it up as he goes along, doesn't he?) Of course it's exactly as Getty says. For more than a year I've been looking for free image of Reeva Steenkamp to use on Wikipedia. There just aren't any. But go to any Facebook tribute site devoted to her and you will find dozens, all of them copied from commercial sites. And several international Wikiprojects carry local images of Reeva (Russia, Italy, Turkey ...). The truth is it really can't be policed. Presently (I mean right now) you can rent a 433 pixel image (i.e. about twice the resolution of our 0.1MP Fair Use standard if square) image from Getty to use for three month on a social media or editorial website for about $50. I doubt they make money on the offer, but of course it marks out their commercial interests, and as Masem points out the "embedding" policy doesn't change that. I agree with Masem. Let WMF apporoach Getty Images and see what sort of deal can be reached with them (the truth is that they're a rather enlightened bunch for all their hard-headed business models). If it means a watermark, that's fine with me even if does put Stefan out of a job (life, whatever it actually is with him) lordy lor. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 21:44, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- This is why I'd like to have a WMF legal input on this matter before we make changes. --MASEM (t) 15:02, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Logos of organizations one is collaborating with
We at WP:WPMED are collaborating with a number of organizations. We and the organization in question is happy to and want us to use their logo on the project pages such as seen here [1] with the Translators Without Borders logo. Is there an exception for this use? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- No. Werieth (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- Make collaborating on Wikipedia difficult. So the only way we can use the logo is if it is CC BY SA? We can use the Wikipedia copyrighted logo on collaborative pages. Makes it a little lopsided doesn't it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:58, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- Why must you display a logo at all? it looks like decoration to me. Werieth (talk) 00:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are two main organizations collaborating in this effort WikiProject Medicine and Translators Without Borders. Many of the people coming to this page are none Wikipedians. Images help explain who is working on this project. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The exact same thing can be done with text, which means its a violation of WP:NFCC#1 Werieth (talk) 00:07, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- This is not a text issue as one can paraphrase that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Werieth means that you could write, in plain text, "We are collaborating with an organization called Translators Without Borders", rather than writing that and putting their logo on the page. Which is true, but of course the same claim could be made for almost all fair-use logos in corporate articles: the first sentence identifies the subject, so why bother putting the logo in the infobox? Answer: because it makes it easier to see, with a brief glance, what the page is about. That answer applies in a collaboration as well, although not quite so perfectly: adding a logo makes it possible to see, with a brief glance, which organizations are working together. Whether that is good enough according to the community is beyond my ken; whether it is good enough according to the NFCC regulars (who tend to be stricter than the typical community member) is something I doubt. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The disallowance of logos on non-article space extends from the Foundation's policy and translated here as NFCC#9. We are only to be using non-free in conjunction with educational purposes, and showing collaboration with a third-party organization is not appropriate. You could use just the wordmark, which is uncopyrightable due to threshold of originality, but the graphic logo cannot be, in any way. --MASEM (t) 02:08, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- So if the legal team at the WMF stated it was okay than we could do it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- No. Werieth (talk) 03:49, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- So if the legal team at the WMF stated it was okay than we could do it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The disallowance of logos on non-article space extends from the Foundation's policy and translated here as NFCC#9. We are only to be using non-free in conjunction with educational purposes, and showing collaboration with a third-party organization is not appropriate. You could use just the wordmark, which is uncopyrightable due to threshold of originality, but the graphic logo cannot be, in any way. --MASEM (t) 02:08, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Werieth means that you could write, in plain text, "We are collaborating with an organization called Translators Without Borders", rather than writing that and putting their logo on the page. Which is true, but of course the same claim could be made for almost all fair-use logos in corporate articles: the first sentence identifies the subject, so why bother putting the logo in the infobox? Answer: because it makes it easier to see, with a brief glance, what the page is about. That answer applies in a collaboration as well, although not quite so perfectly: adding a logo makes it possible to see, with a brief glance, which organizations are working together. Whether that is good enough according to the community is beyond my ken; whether it is good enough according to the NFCC regulars (who tend to be stricter than the typical community member) is something I doubt. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- This is not a text issue as one can paraphrase that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The exact same thing can be done with text, which means its a violation of WP:NFCC#1 Werieth (talk) 00:07, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are two main organizations collaborating in this effort WikiProject Medicine and Translators Without Borders. Many of the people coming to this page are none Wikipedians. Images help explain who is working on this project. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- WP's logo is licensed CC-BY-2.0, so anyone can use it with attribution elsewhere. The fact that this other group doesn't want to license theirs in the same way is what creates the problem, not us. --MASEM (t) 05:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Really? It does say CC BY SA 3.0 here [3] however when we used it on a poster for a talk I gave about about Wikipedia and Medicine at UCSF legal complained. I wonder if they know this? This version says "all rights reserved, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc." [4] which more matches my discussion with them. Will ping legal. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Huh, you're right - at least all the logos at Commons are tagged with a non-free copyright license - I suspect the one I looked at that's here at en.wiki is presently incongruent with those. I do note that on the foundation wiki there's a page that explains that while it is copyrighted there are a number of situations they give free-to-use permissions without question but most have to do with direct WP-related events, and not by-association things. (This also looks a relatively recent change too) --MASEM (t) 07:04, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Really? It does say CC BY SA 3.0 here [3] however when we used it on a poster for a talk I gave about about Wikipedia and Medicine at UCSF legal complained. I wonder if they know this? This version says "all rights reserved, Wikimedia Foundation, Inc." [4] which more matches my discussion with them. Will ping legal. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Why must you display a logo at all? it looks like decoration to me. Werieth (talk) 00:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Make collaborating on Wikipedia difficult. So the only way we can use the logo is if it is CC BY SA? We can use the Wikipedia copyrighted logo on collaborative pages. Makes it a little lopsided doesn't it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:58, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. Getting an "Exemption Doctrine Policy" would require consensus. IMO it seems reasonable to use a copyrighted logo on none main space pages when one has permission of the organization in question. Forcing the organization to release their logo under a CC BY SA before this can be done is a little extreme. If permission is given then it "permits the upload of copyrighted materials that can be legally used in the context of the project" I will post at wikimedia-l and start a RfC. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:53, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if they give permission - our non-free policy is not there to worry about fair use considerations - we're specifically stronger than that so that we never have to worry about being in a fair use issue. We're developing a free content work and the goal is to minimize non-free to where it is only the most needed. To use a logo of an organization on a WIkiproject page to show a connection, this is not a required use of non-free in conjunction with educational content, so no exception can be made. If they really don't want to release it under a CC-BY license that's too bad, we just have to use words to show that. End of story. --MASEM (t) 05:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Okay realize that is your position. Feel free to add it below. Using logos can further a collaboration and many collaborations improve Wikipedia. If it is legal it is also a reasonable exception if not in mainspace. For example the collaboration I am working on have generated dozens of Good and Featured Articles in different languages. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- We're not saying you can't do anything collaborative, but as work that is aimed to free content, we have very strict rules about using non-free - very specifically off main space - and you don't need to use non-free image to show off and describe the collaboration. For example, again, you can use their wordmark (which would be a free image) to showcase the collaboration. --MASEM (t) 05:24, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Okay realize that is your position. Feel free to add it below. Using logos can further a collaboration and many collaborations improve Wikipedia. If it is legal it is also a reasonable exception if not in mainspace. For example the collaboration I am working on have generated dozens of Good and Featured Articles in different languages. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
RfC: Non-free images in collaborations with other organizations
I propose we add the follow text to the exemptions section: "Non-free images may be used on non-article space page when there is explicit permission via OTRS from the copyright holder allowing this us and the copyright holder is involved in a collaborative effort with Wikipedians to improve Wikipedia"
Support
- As proposer Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support. As it will be on a non-article page, it is does not matter that it is not free. Use of such logos would be subject to consensus of the project members. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 13:40, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Pbsouthwood:I don't understand how "As it will be on a non-article page" leads to "it is does not matter that it is not free." Please clarify. Specifically, please clarify how it "does not matter" with respect to existing WMF (i.e. global) policies and with respect to existing local ("English Wikipedia") policies. Thanks. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 20:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The project page is not for re-use by third parties. Policies can be changed and should be changed when they are unnecessarily obstructive. • • • Peter (Southwood) (talk): 05:46, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support If Wikipedia is to grow there needs to be collaboration with other organizations. Not allowing use of logo on collaboration pages will deter cooperation and instill a belief that Wikipedia is governed ineffectively by close-minded individuals who do want to see truly free knowledge prosper. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 20:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support Right now on Meta-Wiki there is a discussion about disclosing conflict of interest. Many community members take the position that Wikipedians with a strong bias to promote an external organization should be open about their relationships with those organizations. The history of marketing has always promoted the idea of a brand and this proposal to use non-free content is an attempt to create an environment in which brands affiliations may be communicated more clearly. This proposal is following an attempt to be transparent about the relationship between Translators Without Borders and m:Wiki Project Med, whose relationship includes the exchange of volunteer time for receipts recording in-kind donation. The Wikimedia Foundation has a practice of doing this also, for example by claiming donation value for in-kind donations, and indeed all organizations with donations in their finances do this. The Wikipedia community is harmed when individuals, communities, and projects are unable to clearly disclose their ties to external organizations by doing what would be done in any media channel other than Wikipedia, which would be to show the brand logo. I support this proposal because it increases transparency and makes records of relationships, which I think increases the Wikimedia movement's integrity. That said, I agree with the opposition that Wikipedia community ideals are greatly disrupted by increased use of non-free content in new ways. Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:07, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- There is no reason that the transparency of the collaboration can be done without non-free imagery. A colored box at the top of the page, the use of their wordmark (sans graphic logo), etc. all serve the same purpose. Yes, eyes are drawn to a graphic logo, but if there's a question of transparency issues, a person is most likely going to be reading all the text at play to learn that, and not just look for a logo. --MASEM (t) 22:48, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support: Masem is good faith and excellent value, but so is Doc James excellenter and he gets my
votesupport. Haven't the faintest idea what the issues here actually are mind, but that'sdemocracyWikipedia for you. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 23:48, 9 March 2014 (UTC)- This doesn't help at all. RFCs are !votes, and there's serious policy issues here, so just supporting the "excellenter" suggestion gives nothing to the discussion. --MASEM (t) 00:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support
A voteisa votesupport isa votesupport, Masem. I did read through it as much as I could understand. Are you saying that you take Stefan's position (so far as I can make it out) that only people with a Master's in Copyright are worth treating with? I do know Doc James' work on Wikipedia. I admire it very much (and on a personal note it was very helpful to me when I seriously ill a few years ago). It was your edit here, and Doc's response, that prompted me to to vote and I did vote with conviction. Did you really imagine I was being non-constructive? Not at all. I just happen to be here (as you know through my Reeva Steenkamp upload) and I just threw in my lot with Doc. Lighten up. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 00:51, 10 March 2014 (UTC)- RFCs like all discussions are policy based, not "number of votes" based. The fact you say you "haven't the faintest idea what the issues are" probably means you should not participate until you know what those issues are, so that you can supply a policy-based reason. This is not a trivial matter as we are talking a core principle of a free-content work. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Voting is most definitely not irrelevant. Who is to determine what is the best argument? You? Disregarding the number of votes is purely anarchistic and allows the editor who shouts the most to win. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 10:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Anarchism isn't the only alternative to simple vote-counting democracy. You may wish to read Wikipedia:Consensus, which explains how decisions are made on Wikipedia. J Milburn (talk) 12:02, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy reminds us that we shouldn't follow an overly strict interpretation of the letter of policy without consideration for the principles of policies. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 13:03, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Anarchism isn't the only alternative to simple vote-counting democracy. You may wish to read Wikipedia:Consensus, which explains how decisions are made on Wikipedia. J Milburn (talk) 12:02, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Voting is most definitely not irrelevant. Who is to determine what is the best argument? You? Disregarding the number of votes is purely anarchistic and allows the editor who shouts the most to win. CFCF (talk · contribs · email) 10:26, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- RFCs like all discussions are policy based, not "number of votes" based. The fact you say you "haven't the faintest idea what the issues are" probably means you should not participate until you know what those issues are, so that you can supply a policy-based reason. This is not a trivial matter as we are talking a core principle of a free-content work. --MASEM (t) 01:36, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support
- This doesn't help at all. RFCs are !votes, and there's serious policy issues here, so just supporting the "excellenter" suggestion gives nothing to the discussion. --MASEM (t) 00:25, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support. Masem is correct that this is currently against our NFCC policy, but that is irrelevant given that the express purpose of this RfC is to change that policy. I would prefer the wording to be slightly tighter to explicitly restrict the use to project pages about the collaboration and encourage minimal usage on those pages, however this is not sufficient for me to object given that this is implicit anyway. It is not reasonable to expect an organisation to license their logo under a free license (which applies to all uses and reuses) because of one collaboration with Wikipedia. In many organisations many more people will have the right to license use of their logo than will have the right to re-license it - for example my parents run a small business, I would be amazed if either of them knew for certain whether the copyright in the logo resides with the company or with the graphic designer who they employed to create it (and it's definitely copyright eligible). We should encourage the use of a free license but should not require it. As for why we should take this line, the simple answer is the professionalism of consistency between online and off-line branding (where neither party would have any legal or policy issues in using both logos AIUI) and between online branding produced by Wiki(p|m)edia and that produced by the partner organisation. This change in policy would have zero impact on article-space uses of non-free media (excluding in the unlikely event that the collaboration itself became notable, when any non-free branding used would be considered for inclusion (although not necessarily actually used)). The change in policy would also have zero effect elsewhere in project space because it explicitly applies only to collaborations. Yes, it might lead to more people asking for other exceptions, but without support from an RfC (which will not happen for trivial things) those requests will not be successful. Thryduulf (talk) 09:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Happy to see the wording tightened. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:21, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- The issue is that people will see the logos used, without knowing there's an exception, and proceed to use non-free logos all over project pages, creating a worse problem. Further, we would never use logos like this in article space - that is, if we're on organization A's page, and there's a section about how they collaborate with organization B, we would never allow for organization B's logo on A's page if B's logo was non-free. The same must be maintained in user-space (even if we had exceptions for user-space non-free). --MASEM (t) 18:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Oppose
- Fails to meet any of our limited exceptions for non-free on non-article pages. Association can be described by text, period. --MASEM (t) 05:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Masem, is your position really, "Oppose changing the policy because changing this policy would require a change to this policy"? That's what you just said: we cannot add this exception to the policy because this exception does not already exist in the policy. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:51, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Support the idea of removing the near-blanket prohibition in cases where OTRS permission exists but Oppose this proposal because it needs to be tightened up to prohibit the use of logos in situations where the use is for or might be perceived as being for "endorsement" or "branding" purposes. As a side-note, this is the very use that the proponent of this RFC is seeking. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 05:27, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I do agree that if a organization gets ORTS for us to use their logo on their mainspace article page, that's fine. Technically we don't need that but this would be a "feel good" step - eg we don't need the AP's permission to use File:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg on the article about the photo, but its good we have that. --MASEM (t) 05:35, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Masem: Actually, I wasn't thinking of that because, as you say, that's already mostly covered under WP:FAIRUSE. I can see your point though, OTRS would be helpful for using something like a high-resolution non-free image of copyrighted artwork on the article about the artwork. However, the more I think about it, the use cases I would support are the very use cases where OTRS would likely be unavailable: The use of copyrighted images where the original copyright owner is defunct and the image, while still copyrighted, has no practical commercial value and where the copyright owner may be hard to track down. WikiProjects which deal with defunct companies or which deal with decades-old book/music/other-creative-arts genres come to mind. If Apple Computer had bit the dust several years ago and its trademarks and branding abandoned, I would have no problem with a WikiProject using the old logos and branding-marks IF the current copyright holder of the old logos gave copyright clearance for related WikiProjects to use the logos. I would NOT support any such use if it could be reasonably considered as "advertising" or "endorsement" of any existing entity that had a copyright claim on the image. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 21:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- See, that's the problem - non-free policy is not there directly to cover the Foundation's legal side in regards to copyright issues and the Foundation. Non-free's requirements, as a side effect, would make the Foundation's position in a fair use defense very solid. Instead, the idea behind non-free is to promote free content and in essence discourage non-free content that would otherwise be fair use, and that means when there are cases that where the non-free could be a visually appealing thing but otherwise does not directly serve the educational goals. Branding logos on WProject is exactly that type of case. --MASEM (t) 21:54, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- @Masem: Actually, I wasn't thinking of that because, as you say, that's already mostly covered under WP:FAIRUSE. I can see your point though, OTRS would be helpful for using something like a high-resolution non-free image of copyrighted artwork on the article about the artwork. However, the more I think about it, the use cases I would support are the very use cases where OTRS would likely be unavailable: The use of copyrighted images where the original copyright owner is defunct and the image, while still copyrighted, has no practical commercial value and where the copyright owner may be hard to track down. WikiProjects which deal with defunct companies or which deal with decades-old book/music/other-creative-arts genres come to mind. If Apple Computer had bit the dust several years ago and its trademarks and branding abandoned, I would have no problem with a WikiProject using the old logos and branding-marks IF the current copyright holder of the old logos gave copyright clearance for related WikiProjects to use the logos. I would NOT support any such use if it could be reasonably considered as "advertising" or "endorsement" of any existing entity that had a copyright claim on the image. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 21:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yeah, I do agree that if a organization gets ORTS for us to use their logo on their mainspace article page, that's fine. Technically we don't need that but this would be a "feel good" step - eg we don't need the AP's permission to use File:WW2 Iwo Jima flag raising.jpg on the article about the photo, but its good we have that. --MASEM (t) 05:35, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- While the desire to bring about a solution to the concerns with your project is admirable, I think you missed the mark here, James. This is a global policy and a local RFC proposing change, in my opinion, is questionable at best. Note the message in the Resolution, "This policy is approved by the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees to apply to all Wikimedia projects. It may not be circumvented, eroded, or ignored by local policies." In all sincerity, this RFC appears to be an attempt to circumvent policy. My thoughts concur with Masem's as stated in the previous section. To paraphrase, logos = set decoration. They may "pretty up the place", but use in this regard is really a personal preference, rather than a necessary evil. Best regards, Cindy(talk) 06:09, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The licensing policy found here states [5] "Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) A project-specific policy, in accordance with United States law and the law of countries where the project content is predominantly accessed (if any), that recognizes the limitations of copyright law" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:15, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I misunderstood. Are you proposing a change to the licensing policy or the EDP? Cindy(talk) 07:42, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- I am proposing a change to Wikipedia:Non-free_content Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The change you are asking for requires us to change the licensing policy, which isn't going to happen. --MASEM (t) 22:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- No the licensing policy allows this sort of use. No change is required there. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes, that's my understanding too. The restriction to article-space comes from Non-free content criteria $9, which serves as the English Wikipedia's Exemption Doctrine Policy as envisaged by the Licensing Policy but is not itself the Licensing Policy nor does the Licensing Policy define the scope (except in general terms as minimal) and specifically not the location of exempted items . There's thus no need to change the licensing policy. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 19:52, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- No the licensing policy allows this sort of use. No change is required there. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:49, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- The change you are asking for requires us to change the licensing policy, which isn't going to happen. --MASEM (t) 22:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- I am proposing a change to Wikipedia:Non-free_content Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 07:50, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Maybe I misunderstood. Are you proposing a change to the licensing policy or the EDP? Cindy(talk) 07:42, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The licensing policy found here states [5] "Exemption Doctrine Policy (EDP) A project-specific policy, in accordance with United States law and the law of countries where the project content is predominantly accessed (if any), that recognizes the limitations of copyright law" Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 06:15, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose, it is the partners choice to free anything they want and they know the rules. --ThurnerRupert (talk) 07:26, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose We are not here to plaster non-free logos everywhere. Wikipedia's m:Mission is to provide free content. Usage of non-free media in non-article space violates the core principals of both the mission and WP:NFCC. We limit the usage of non-free media to where absolutely necessary. Using non-free logos for a wikiproject goes against the very core of wikipedia and wikimedia is trying to do. We can provide a link to the article on the entity that we are partnering with if people do not recognize the name. We dont need to pollute free content with non-free logos that are being used decoratively. Werieth (talk) 13:51, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- So are you proposing that we stop using the Wikipedia logo? You do realize that it is none free and owned by the WMF. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:58, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is owned by the WMF, and so their sites using their logo is in compliance with this. --MASEM (t) 00:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Yes but some people use the logo within other images and use it is non article space. Check out this barnstar for example. [6] If our mission was to only provide free content we would not allow this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:08, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is owned by the WMF, and so their sites using their logo is in compliance with this. --MASEM (t) 00:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- First of all Doc isn't proposing to plaster non-free logos everywhere and we do all get that about our mission to provide free content. But I don't see anything about "non-free media in non-article space" in our licensing policy which does commit (with the exception of Commons) to using an Exemption Doctrine Policy (i.e including the use of non-free content) "to illustrate historically significant events, to include identifying protected works such as logos, or to complement (within narrow limits) articles about copyrighted contemporary works". So I really don't think your grand appeal to our mission has any real applicability here. I do think davidwr has a valid point about endorsement that ought to be addressed. Otherwise I'm content to carry on
lovingsupporting Doc, though of course I don't have a degree in Wikipedia Administration or anything. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 13:58, 10 March 2014 (UTC)- Please see WP:VEGAN to see the dangers of diluting the non-free policy and towards a free content mission. --MASEM (t) 14:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Camel's nose (aka Slippery slope, Thin edge of the wedge, We let him in and he brought his donkey too etc.). The ones on Swedish camels are huge incidentally, Masem, and they gawk bucket-loads of spit if you go anywhere near them. Seriously, stay away is my advice. Coat of Many Colours (talk)
- If our orders from the WMF are to minimize non-free, any attempt to wear away at that and allow non-free in cases previously not allowed is what is creating the slippery slope, that's the point of VEGAN. We've been there before, we know exactly what the average wikipedian - who probably has little idea about our non-free policy - wants to do when they see images being used in novel ways for their own articles. --MASEM (t) 14:42, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- First of all I sincerely respect what you do here, Masem. But with respect, Doc James isn't an "average" wikipedian. He's a pillar of WikiProject Medicine and I frankly doubt he harbours any insidious plan to undermine Wikipedia. If Doc were to call round his (I'm sure) numerous friends in Wikipedia, then I'm equally sure they would be out here in force to rubber-stamp his request and move on. But of course we know he can't do that and no doubt you would be quite right to say that kind of support, which doesn't really address the issues, shouldn't carry much weight. Equally this is a forum which plainly sees itself as a champion and bastion of free content (there are people posting here who oppose any non-free content whatsoever). That's not likely to be a very sympathetic forum for Doc James to bring his case, is it Masem? The least you could do is refrain from breaking out these pub bores on baked bean diets "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" arguments. Can you really not see that last remark of your was very patronising? We shouldn't personalise the issues, but that's exactly what you did with your "average". You profiled him and his motives. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are people that have been on WP for years and never had to do anything with non-free content and make the mistakes of thinking "non-free" is the same as "fair use", and thus while they may be the expert in other areas, are appearing as novices in others. And non-free is not supposed to give an inch - our mandate from the Foundation is to minimize it, and that's a thing a lot of people do not respect until they actually learn about non-free and its limitations. --MASEM (t) 17:50, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- So when I tried to convince the WMF that the Wikipedia logo should be under a CC BY SA license where was everyone who supports free logos? They support free logos from other organizations but not the WMF? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:48, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- It's not that we "support free logos" , but instead that we support using logos freely (but still under constraits to avoid outright spamming) when they are free and under very limited use when they are not. There's a difference here, and we have to recognize that some orgs will not release their logos under a free license. Why the WMF doesn't, I'm not sure outside that they may have to do it to protect WP's identity from the rest of the world that would like to profit off it. --MASEM (t) 19:23, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- So when I tried to convince the WMF that the Wikipedia logo should be under a CC BY SA license where was everyone who supports free logos? They support free logos from other organizations but not the WMF? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:48, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are people that have been on WP for years and never had to do anything with non-free content and make the mistakes of thinking "non-free" is the same as "fair use", and thus while they may be the expert in other areas, are appearing as novices in others. And non-free is not supposed to give an inch - our mandate from the Foundation is to minimize it, and that's a thing a lot of people do not respect until they actually learn about non-free and its limitations. --MASEM (t) 17:50, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- First of all I sincerely respect what you do here, Masem. But with respect, Doc James isn't an "average" wikipedian. He's a pillar of WikiProject Medicine and I frankly doubt he harbours any insidious plan to undermine Wikipedia. If Doc were to call round his (I'm sure) numerous friends in Wikipedia, then I'm equally sure they would be out here in force to rubber-stamp his request and move on. But of course we know he can't do that and no doubt you would be quite right to say that kind of support, which doesn't really address the issues, shouldn't carry much weight. Equally this is a forum which plainly sees itself as a champion and bastion of free content (there are people posting here who oppose any non-free content whatsoever). That's not likely to be a very sympathetic forum for Doc James to bring his case, is it Masem? The least you could do is refrain from breaking out these pub bores on baked bean diets "give them an inch and they'll take a mile" arguments. Can you really not see that last remark of your was very patronising? We shouldn't personalise the issues, but that's exactly what you did with your "average". You profiled him and his motives. Coat of Many Colours (talk) 16:45, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- If our orders from the WMF are to minimize non-free, any attempt to wear away at that and allow non-free in cases previously not allowed is what is creating the slippery slope, that's the point of VEGAN. We've been there before, we know exactly what the average wikipedian - who probably has little idea about our non-free policy - wants to do when they see images being used in novel ways for their own articles. --MASEM (t) 14:42, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Camel's nose (aka Slippery slope, Thin edge of the wedge, We let him in and he brought his donkey too etc.). The ones on Swedish camels are huge incidentally, Masem, and they gawk bucket-loads of spit if you go anywhere near them. Seriously, stay away is my advice. Coat of Many Colours (talk)
- Please see WP:VEGAN to see the dangers of diluting the non-free policy and towards a free content mission. --MASEM (t) 14:04, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- So are you proposing that we stop using the Wikipedia logo? You do realize that it is none free and owned by the WMF. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:58, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose. I really do not understand why this would be a good thing. If companies are really that keen to see their logo on Wikipedia project pages, they are welcome to release it under a free license. If a user or project wishes to display some kind of affiliation, they can do so with text. Also, is this really the kind of thing with which we want to be clogging up OTRS inboxes? J Milburn (talk) 00:12, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose any use of non-free content, especially outside mainspace. If people want us to use their content, they should use a free licence (and so should the WMF). —Kusma (t·c) 10:40, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- Oppose The express purpose of our licensing terms is to allow downstream republishers the right to publish Wikipedia content without having to "ask permission". Any copyright holder that only allows Wikipedia to use an image violates that core principle. That's why we don't want such restrictions. Either something is expressly licensed under a valid GFDL/CC license, or we don't want it. --Jayron32 16:47, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- How / why do we allow this than? [7] It of course is not under an open license as it contains the Wikipedia logo. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:55, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- I agree this is a problem. I have no idea where to find where the idea was made to allow it to be used as a cleanup logo to start. --MASEM (t) 19:24, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- I raised this question at commons [8]. If it turns out it is copyrighted, then we either need to remove them all or allow some exemption for WP logo allowances on non-article space (but that would have to be decided by separate consensus). --MASEM (t) 19:37, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- How / why do we allow this than? [7] It of course is not under an open license as it contains the Wikipedia logo. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 18:55, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
Discussion
- Have posted a note at Wikimedia-l linking to this. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- I posted at meta:Talk:Terms_of_use/Paid_contributions_amendment#Should_fair_use_policy_on_English_Wikipedia_be_modified_to_allow_copyrighted_logos_to_be_displayed_on_user_and_project_pages_to_communicate_affiliations.3F. Blue Rasberry (talk) 22:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Procedural Note given the impact of this RfC it should be spammed around to AN,ANI, and the VPs. Werieth (talk) 15:18, 10 March 2014 (UTC)
- AN(I)s are not the place to put RFC notices particularly when this has nothing to do with admin powers. VPP (policy) would be reasonable as well as listing at CENT. --MASEM (t) 15:28, 10 March 2014 (UTC)