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:::::::::::Per "The disallowance of logos on non-article space extends from the Foundation's policy" Which policy is this exactly? And if we changed the policy than we could. [[User:Jmh649|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
:::::::::::Per "The disallowance of logos on non-article space extends from the Foundation's policy" Which policy is this exactly? And if we changed the policy than we could. [[User:Jmh649|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
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::::::::::::[https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Licensing_policy]. And to be clear, we do make some exceptions on en.wiki but they are strictly for admin issues around non-free images. If we make an exception here to use a non-free outside mainspace, people will jump and ask for exceptions everywhere. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 04:41, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
::::::::::::[https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Licensing_policy]. And to be clear, we do make some exceptions on en.wiki but they are strictly for admin issues around non-free images. If we make an exception here to use a non-free outside mainspace, people will jump and ask for exceptions everywhere. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 04:41, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
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:::WP's logo is licensed CC-BY-2.0, so anyone can use it with attribution elsewhere. The fact that this other group doesn't want to license theirs in the same way is what creates the problem, not us. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 05:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
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Thanks. Getting an "Exemption Doctrine Policy" would require consensus. IMO it seems reasonable to use a copyrighted logo on none main space pages when one has permission of the organization in question. Forcing the organization to release their logo under a CC BY SA before this can be done is a little extreme. If permission is given then it "permits the upload of copyrighted materials that can be legally used in the context of the project" I will post at wikimedia-l and start a RfC. [[User:Jmh649|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:53, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
Thanks. Getting an "Exemption Doctrine Policy" would require consensus. IMO it seems reasonable to use a copyrighted logo on none main space pages when one has permission of the organization in question. Forcing the organization to release their logo under a CC BY SA before this can be done is a little extreme. If permission is given then it "permits the upload of copyrighted materials that can be legally used in the context of the project" I will post at wikimedia-l and start a RfC. [[User:Jmh649|<span style="color:#0000f1">'''Doc James'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Jmh649|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Jmh649|contribs]] · [[Special:EmailUser/Jmh649|email]]) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:53, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
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:It doesn't matter if they give permission - our non-free policy is not there to worry about fair use considerations - we're specifically stronger than that so that we never have to worry about being in a fair use issue. We're developing a free content work and the goal is to minimize non-free to where it is only the most needed. To use a logo of an organization on a WIkiproject page to show a connection, this is not a required use of non-free in conjunction with educational content, so no exception can be made. If they really don't want to release it under a CC-BY license that's too bad, we just have to use words to show that. End of story. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 05:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
:It doesn't matter if they give permission - our non-free policy is not there to worry about fair use considerations - we're specifically stronger than that so that we never have to worry about being in a fair use issue. We're developing a free content work and the goal is to minimize non-free to where it is only the most needed. To use a logo of an organization on a WIkiproject page to show a connection, this is not a required use of non-free in conjunction with educational content, so no exception can be made. If they really don't want to release it under a CC-BY license that's too bad, we just have to use words to show that. End of story. --[[User:Masem|M<font size="-3">ASEM</font>]] ([[User Talk:Masem|t]]) 05:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC) |
Revision as of 05:17, 9 March 2014
Fair use (inactive) | ||||
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What is a "map"?
WP:NFC#UUI §4 lists, amongst a non-exhaustive list of examples, the case that a map from an atlas is not generally acceptable under NFC. I assume that this is because the region mapped exists and can be mapped by any surveyor, including a surveyor producing free content. This also assumes, rather less clearly, that regions of the Earth are equally visitable by all surveyors.
This "map" exclusion is being used here: Wikipedia:Possibly_unfree_files/2014_February_23#File:Sectional_drawing_of_Hulsebos-Hesselman_engine.jpg to exclude a technical drawing of an obscure 1930s engine. No examples of this exceptionally rare engine are likely to exist, so redrawing such a drawing is impossible (let alone the aspect that design drawings aren't the same as sketches of the finished product).
Is this technical drawing a "map", thus excluded from NFC under that example? This seems, to my mind, a ridiculous extrapolation. Whatever the thoughts on whether this image meets NFC, or not, for any other reason, it's not because technical drawings are now to be considered as maps!
Incidentally, the drawing (and the rest of the content from that book) meets PD-UK. Andy Dingley (talk) 11:41, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
- If it's just PD-UK and not PD-US, we have to treat it as non-free. So from that point of view, the point being made at the PUF is that it is a technical drawing - creative effort was made to assemble the drawing in the past, but the concepts of the engine cannot be copyrighted and it should be possible for someone to make a comparable drawing with a free license - maybe not with the same details but enough to show the concepts behind hit; this thus fails NFCC#1. The reason it is compared to a map is that in nearly all cases, map and geographic data can be recreated in a free manner ; only if the map included "creative" analysis such as the suggested example in UUI#4 about a contested border or the like would that may it impossible to recreate as a true free image. It is not a map, but the situation - where the picture is illustrating otherwise uncopyrightable information - is the same. --MASEM (t) 15:37, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Quick question...
The image File:GoingUnderScreenshot.jpg is currently used under a non-free use rationale for the article Going Under (2004 film). One of the actors who appeared in that film is Roger Rees who also appears in that image. Would it be stretching the fair use rationale to use that image in his BLP? We would ensure, of course, that it is properly credited as a screen-shot from the film but does it create issues that cannot be resolved with proper crediting? Stalwart111 12:27, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- It would violate WP:NFCC#1, as he is still alive. Werieth (talk) 13:13, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Even where the "equivalent" could only be gained by camping outside his house with a telephoto lens? I'm more than happy to accept your interpretation, I'm just wondering how "available" the alternate has to be. Stalwart111 20:35, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are scores of images on flickr from the last few years, demonstrating that this argument is just silly. He's an active performer, not J. D. Salinger. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- We can use those? That'd be great! Any chance you could point me toward a particular one? To be clear, it's not really an "argument" - I genuinely don't have a great understanding of these things and very rarely have anything to do with images. I didn't want to just go ahead and insert something for fear I'd get it wrong. Seems that fear was well-founded. Appreciate the advice either way. Stalwart111 22:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- No, we can't use those; none have an appropriate license. But they show that it wouldn't be so difficult for someone who wanted to create a free photo to take one. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 00:41, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- We can use those? That'd be great! Any chance you could point me toward a particular one? To be clear, it's not really an "argument" - I genuinely don't have a great understanding of these things and very rarely have anything to do with images. I didn't want to just go ahead and insert something for fear I'd get it wrong. Seems that fear was well-founded. Appreciate the advice either way. Stalwart111 22:48, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are scores of images on flickr from the last few years, demonstrating that this argument is just silly. He's an active performer, not J. D. Salinger. Hullaballoo Wolfowitz (talk) 21:53, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Even where the "equivalent" could only be gained by camping outside his house with a telephoto lens? I'm more than happy to accept your interpretation, I'm just wondering how "available" the alternate has to be. Stalwart111 20:35, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- Should be easier to take a photo of this guy than to take a photo of Kim Jong-un, and we do not accept non-free pictures of Kim Jong-un per WP:NFCC#1. The image therefore fails WP:NFCC#1. --Stefan2 (talk) 23:06, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
- I've removed the image from the film as it doesn't contribute to the understanding of the film enough to warrant using as a non-free image in that article. davidwr/(talk)/(contribs) 23:08, 6 March 2014 (UTC)
Getty Images
So this happened. I don't think anything is likely to change quickly, but is there anything that needs to be said on the page? __ E L A Q U E A T E 03:29, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't change anything directly - they want to use a version that embeds the image so that clicking on it takes you to Getty's - so these are going to be still treated as non-free. However, there are two direct consequences here:
- In terms of NFCC#2, Gettys images that would be under this "free to use" aspect for social media would likely no longer fail NFCC#2. This isn't all Gettys as the article states. However, this I would ask a WMF lawyer to double check before we clear it here.
- Someone - ideally the Foundation - should reach out and ask Gettys if they would give WP a blanket allowance to use Gettys stuff under a free CC-BY-SA (attribution kept), even if this has to mean that we have to credit Gettys in image captions directly. Or there are other ways that they would not be true free licenses but would be "freer" than they are presently.
- This would affect worldwide projects so I definitely the first step is to get WMF on board for how this affects image policies. --MASEM (t) 03:37, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
- Getty still requires people to pay for commercial use of the images, and you also have to pay if you can't use an iframe. Wikipedia can only accept fair use claims if they also work for commercial reusers, and Wikipedia can't use iframes as it would be against the privacy policy. Getty also decides the pixel size of the image, and the only allowed pixel size generally seems to be too big for Wikipedia articles. It therefore changes nothing with regard to Wikipedia's abilities to use Getty's images, as Getty still demands you to pay for the image in all other contexts.
- I would say that there are three kinds of image users out there:
- Newspapers and similar services: These pay for Getty's services and will have to continue to do so.
- Users who do not understand copyright law and who just Google for images and insert those on pages: These get fines for violating Getty's copyright, and these users will likely receive fines in the future too as they won't understand that they need to include the HTML code which includes Getty's iframe with the credit line.
- Users who understand copyright: These do not use Getty's images but instead use freely licensed images from Commons, Flickr and other services and by attributing the source advertise for websites containing free images.
- I'm guessing that the problem for Getty is the third group of people. Getty knows that it can't get any money from these people and are also worried about the advertisements for Commons and Flickr. If the first group of people becomes aware of freely licensed images, this means less money for Getty as these users may use other people's images for free. If freely licensed images start popping up in Google Images searches, then Getty won't be able to send as many fines for copyright violations to people as it currently is doing, again meaning less money for Getty. Therefore, I guess that Getty wants to prevent advertisements for freely licensed sources (to make group one less aware of them) and limit their use (so that group two doesn't find those images instead of Getty's images in Google searches).
- This thing seems to be directed to people in group 3: Getty knows that these people won't pay Getty any money, but is hoping that this feature will make some people in the group use their images, thereby reducing the exposure to freely licensed images for people in groups 1 and 2.
- Also, it seems that only some images are available for free iframe use. For example, this one allows iframe use, but this one does not. --Stefan2 (talk) 14:49, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Logos of organizations one is collaborating with
We at WP:WPMED are collaborating with a number of organizations. We and the organization in question is happy to and want us to use their logo on the project pages such as seen here [1] with the Translators Without Borders logo. Is there an exception for this use? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:08, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- No. Werieth (talk) 23:16, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- Make collaborating on Wikipedia difficult. So the only way we can use the logo is if it is CC BY SA? We can use the Wikipedia copyrighted logo on collaborative pages. Makes it a little lopsided doesn't it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:58, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
- Why must you display a logo at all? it looks like decoration to me. Werieth (talk) 00:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are two main organizations collaborating in this effort WikiProject Medicine and Translators Without Borders. Many of the people coming to this page are none Wikipedians. Images help explain who is working on this project. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The exact same thing can be done with text, which means its a violation of WP:NFCC#1 Werieth (talk) 00:07, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- This is not a text issue as one can paraphrase that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Werieth means that you could write, in plain text, "We are collaborating with an organization called Translators Without Borders", rather than writing that and putting their logo on the page. Which is true, but of course the same claim could be made for almost all fair-use logos in corporate articles: the first sentence identifies the subject, so why bother putting the logo in the infobox? Answer: because it makes it easier to see, with a brief glance, what the page is about. That answer applies in a collaboration as well, although not quite so perfectly: adding a logo makes it possible to see, with a brief glance, which organizations are working together. Whether that is good enough according to the community is beyond my ken; whether it is good enough according to the NFCC regulars (who tend to be stricter than the typical community member) is something I doubt. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The disallowance of logos on non-article space extends from the Foundation's policy and translated here as NFCC#9. We are only to be using non-free in conjunction with educational purposes, and showing collaboration with a third-party organization is not appropriate. You could use just the wordmark, which is uncopyrightable due to threshold of originality, but the graphic logo cannot be, in any way. --MASEM (t) 02:08, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- So if the legal team at the WMF stated it was okay than we could do it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- No. Werieth (talk) 03:49, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- So if the legal team at the WMF stated it was okay than we could do it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 03:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The disallowance of logos on non-article space extends from the Foundation's policy and translated here as NFCC#9. We are only to be using non-free in conjunction with educational purposes, and showing collaboration with a third-party organization is not appropriate. You could use just the wordmark, which is uncopyrightable due to threshold of originality, but the graphic logo cannot be, in any way. --MASEM (t) 02:08, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Werieth means that you could write, in plain text, "We are collaborating with an organization called Translators Without Borders", rather than writing that and putting their logo on the page. Which is true, but of course the same claim could be made for almost all fair-use logos in corporate articles: the first sentence identifies the subject, so why bother putting the logo in the infobox? Answer: because it makes it easier to see, with a brief glance, what the page is about. That answer applies in a collaboration as well, although not quite so perfectly: adding a logo makes it possible to see, with a brief glance, which organizations are working together. Whether that is good enough according to the community is beyond my ken; whether it is good enough according to the NFCC regulars (who tend to be stricter than the typical community member) is something I doubt. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:18, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- This is not a text issue as one can paraphrase that. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- The exact same thing can be done with text, which means its a violation of WP:NFCC#1 Werieth (talk) 00:07, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- There are two main organizations collaborating in this effort WikiProject Medicine and Translators Without Borders. Many of the people coming to this page are none Wikipedians. Images help explain who is working on this project. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 00:05, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- WP's logo is licensed CC-BY-2.0, so anyone can use it with attribution elsewhere. The fact that this other group doesn't want to license theirs in the same way is what creates the problem, not us. --MASEM (t) 05:17, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Why must you display a logo at all? it looks like decoration to me. Werieth (talk) 00:02, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- Make collaborating on Wikipedia difficult. So the only way we can use the logo is if it is CC BY SA? We can use the Wikipedia copyrighted logo on collaborative pages. Makes it a little lopsided doesn't it? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 23:58, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. Getting an "Exemption Doctrine Policy" would require consensus. IMO it seems reasonable to use a copyrighted logo on none main space pages when one has permission of the organization in question. Forcing the organization to release their logo under a CC BY SA before this can be done is a little extreme. If permission is given then it "permits the upload of copyrighted materials that can be legally used in the context of the project" I will post at wikimedia-l and start a RfC. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 04:53, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if they give permission - our non-free policy is not there to worry about fair use considerations - we're specifically stronger than that so that we never have to worry about being in a fair use issue. We're developing a free content work and the goal is to minimize non-free to where it is only the most needed. To use a logo of an organization on a WIkiproject page to show a connection, this is not a required use of non-free in conjunction with educational content, so no exception can be made. If they really don't want to release it under a CC-BY license that's too bad, we just have to use words to show that. End of story. --MASEM (t) 05:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
RfC: Non-free images in collaborations with other organizations
I propose we add the follow text to the exemptions section: "Non-free images may be used on non-article space page when there is explicit permission via OTRS from the copyright holder allowing this us and the copyright holder is involved in a collaborative effort with Wikipedians to improve Wikipedia"
Support
- As proposer Doc James (talk · contribs · email) (if I write on your page reply on mine) 05:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)
Oppose
- Fails to meet any of our limited exceptions for non-free on non-article pages. Association can be described by text, period. --MASEM (t) 05:14, 9 March 2014 (UTC)