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::::I am seeking input regarding the interpretation of the editor I have a dispute with that I am pushing original research. I didn't come here looking for input regarding conduct. Thanks. <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:0 7px;background:orange">[[User:Thinker78|<span style="color:white">'''Thinker78'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Thinker78|(talk)]] 17:43, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
::::I am seeking input regarding the interpretation of the editor I have a dispute with that I am pushing original research. I didn't come here looking for input regarding conduct. Thanks. <span style="border-radius:8em;padding:0 7px;background:orange">[[User:Thinker78|<span style="color:white">'''Thinker78'''</span>]]</span> [[User talk:Thinker78|(talk)]] 17:43, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
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:I would have taken Joe Roe's advice. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 17:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
:I would have taken Joe Roe's advice. -- <small>LCU</small> '''[[User:ActivelyDisinterested|A<small>ctively</small>D<small>isinterested</small>]]''' <small>''«[[User talk:ActivelyDisinterested|@]]» °[[Special:Contributions/ActivelyDisinterested|∆t]]°''</small> 17:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
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::Ditto. [[User:Firefangledfeathers|Firefangledfeathers]] ([[User talk:Firefangledfeathers|talk]] / [[Special:Contributions/Firefangledfeathers|contribs]]) 17:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC) |
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Publisher website links and WP:PRIMARY
– 15:34, 10 May 2021 (UTC)
uhh
"The phrase "original research" (OR) is used on Wikipedia to refer to material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published sources exist" What if those facts, allegations, and ideas are examined and published within a source? Darbymarby (talk) 14:47, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
- If the material is published in a reliable source, then, in Wikipedia jargon, it isn't original research. If the source is not reliable, then it is considered original research (in Wikipedia jargon). Jc3s5h (talk) 15:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
- But keep in mind that if the material is the outcome of a single (possibly controversial) original study (even published in a high quality scientific journal) it would still be a primary source. Overreliance / overinterpretation on primary sources is also to some extent capture under the larger original research umbrella (see the project page section on primary, secondary and tertiary sources). So even if published, handle with care. Arnoutf (talk) 18:30, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
- Considering Wikipedia considers places like WSJ to be reliable sources, this basically amounts to "we'll allow or deny posting whatever we feel like". That notwithstanding, even at face value this rule just means that an expert's years of experience mean nothing compared to uneducated babbling of a journalist, for no other reason that the journalists' words were published in some official capacity and the expert's words weren't. If you're an expert in anything, you know painfully well that virtually none of the time someone does reporting about your field they convey anything correctly - not even in terms of details, but just in general. Worse yet, even citing peer-reviewed scientific papers doesn't automatically means it's reliable information. If you know, you know.
- I understand why this rule exists but it's the evil genie wish kind of deal. Wording matters, especially when it's enforced by power-tripping drones. You created an environment where educated people's input is worth less than that of someone who doesn't knows what they're even talking about. It's why despite your best efforts, Wikipedia is rightfully a laughing stock in the realm of sources of information. 46.42.22.160 (talk) 01:35, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- We don't know who here is or isn't an expert. For example, is "46.42.22.160" renowned throughout the world for copious and solid contributions to our understanding of the universe by the great researcher of that name? Meanwhile, if what's on Wikipedia reflects what's in "the realm of sources information" as it's supposed to, it can't be a "laughing stock" in comparison because it contains the same information.
- What gets me are people (not necessarily you, I have no idea what your previous contributions to Wikipedia, if any, have been) who end up ranting about what a joke everybody thinks Wikipedia is—in response to their having been frustrated in their own attempts to contribute to this work that everybody purportedly considers a joke.
- Considering the millions of visitors looking up information on this site, it's a stretch to make out that "everybody" considers it a joke. Largoplazo (talk) 02:18, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- Add to this the facts that a) experts in every field regularly contradict each other and prove each other wrong, like on a daily basis; and b) an expert in one narrow field rapidly loses relevance the further they wander from their speciality (or the further we cite their specialized material as allegedly relevant to something else); and c) even when we know for a fact that a particular author is a pre-eminent expert, we will not be copyright-violating them by dumping their material into our article, but will be (usually non-expertly) summarizing it, including how it interrelates with other research and source material. The anon above just has utterly unreasonable expectations. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 02:31, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
Specifying useful and proper uses of primary sources and reference works
A number of recent conflicts and confusions seem to revolve around trying to apply a single gloss of "reliability as a source" to an entire category of sources (direct observations, primary sources, secondary sources, encyclopedic tertiary sources, catalogs of canonical reference observations, &c).
These discussions have covered everything from geo stubs and how OR relates to summarizing primary sources, to whether secondary sources are naturally better sources, to what can be inferred and summarized from books and maps.
Rather than trying to wordsmith further short paragraphs that try to convey similar universals (when there may not be universal lessons to draw about such broad source categories, and the categories are not always well bounded), perhaps there could be a more fully-detailed set of examples and analogies. These could include examples of excellent use of direct observations (illustrated by a Commons photo), primary sources (direct quotes and as indications of what a source was thinking), tertiary sources (as indications of commonly held overviews), and reference data (official names, measurements, statistics).
In the right context, each of these types of sources (observations or reference data, primary, secondary, tertiary) may be the best available source — which an be supplemented but not replaced by some of the others. – SJ + 02:33, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- In particular, the notion that notability is obliged to include 'noted in reliable secondary sources' and can never mean 'notable in reliable tertiary sources' or 'passing a statistical threshold in reliable datasets' seems unhelpfully narrow. Let's keep encouraging topic areas to develop their own thoughtful notability guidelines. Highlighting interesting variations and pointing to them (here) as positive examples may dissuade people in the future from trying to retcon all variations away through well-meant but lossy attempts to Stick To The Rules. – SJ + 02:47, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- I think people need to refrain from confusing reliability and secondaryness. Perhaps we need to say so. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 12:12, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- Remember that we EXPLICITLY allow primary sources in this policy, but with a caution that says it is easy to misuse them. The key to understanding NOR is that the policy is not about the nature of the source material … it is about what WE do WITH the source material. Are we going beyond what is explicitly (directly) stated in the source material? If so, then we are engaging in OR. Blueboar (talk) 14:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- I feel like we've lost a sense of WP:RSCONTEXT since approximately when WP:RSP became popular. Back in the day, we'd have said, "Oh, sure, that's a state-controlled propaganda outlet, but it's fine to use for certain sentences (e.g., "He was promoted to Senior Assistant Under Junior Secretary of his apartment building")". Now the response is more categorical: "How dare you use that kind of source for anything at all!" I wonder whether the goal, in some editors' minds, is to avoid making detectable mistakes (e.g., excise anything highlighted by certain scripts), rather than trying to do something useful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- Categorically excluding particularly unreliable sources is good, actually. Sure, you could probably source RT for simple facts, that it gets right in basic reporting. But then what you're doing is driving more eyes and traffic to a state propaganda outlet, which will misinform and disinform our readers. RSP is a great service we provide. RSCONTEXT is still an extremely important concept. And you have to remember that the prescribed remedy for someone deleting a bunch of yellow source material in an uncontroversial usage is to revert and cite RSCONTEXT. Like anything else, consensus can always exclude a source in a particular usage/context but it is up to those who want to defend that usage (a little ONUS/BURDEN for ya there) to justify why the particulars would allow it, which they fully can. I've seen a fair bit of hand-wringing over "RSP but colors but people just do yellow green bad!" and I've never actually seen this happen. Andre🚐 22:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- In the instance I was thinking of, the enforcer didn't remove the material. Only the source was removed. Previously, we had material cited to a source that certainly passes RSCONTEXT; now we have uncited material about a BLP. I do not think that is an improvement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:07, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
- Categorically excluding particularly unreliable sources is good, actually. Sure, you could probably source RT for simple facts, that it gets right in basic reporting. But then what you're doing is driving more eyes and traffic to a state propaganda outlet, which will misinform and disinform our readers. RSP is a great service we provide. RSCONTEXT is still an extremely important concept. And you have to remember that the prescribed remedy for someone deleting a bunch of yellow source material in an uncontroversial usage is to revert and cite RSCONTEXT. Like anything else, consensus can always exclude a source in a particular usage/context but it is up to those who want to defend that usage (a little ONUS/BURDEN for ya there) to justify why the particulars would allow it, which they fully can. I've seen a fair bit of hand-wringing over "RSP but colors but people just do yellow green bad!" and I've never actually seen this happen. Andre🚐 22:14, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- I feel like we've lost a sense of WP:RSCONTEXT since approximately when WP:RSP became popular. Back in the day, we'd have said, "Oh, sure, that's a state-controlled propaganda outlet, but it's fine to use for certain sentences (e.g., "He was promoted to Senior Assistant Under Junior Secretary of his apartment building")". Now the response is more categorical: "How dare you use that kind of source for anything at all!" I wonder whether the goal, in some editors' minds, is to avoid making detectable mistakes (e.g., excise anything highlighted by certain scripts), rather than trying to do something useful. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- Remember that we EXPLICITLY allow primary sources in this policy, but with a caution that says it is easy to misuse them. The key to understanding NOR is that the policy is not about the nature of the source material … it is about what WE do WITH the source material. Are we going beyond what is explicitly (directly) stated in the source material? If so, then we are engaging in OR. Blueboar (talk) 14:05, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- IMHO, to the original post, writing articles based on datasets is WP:OR. I thought we had resolved the map issue that straightforward interpretation of maps isn't OR. We shouldn't be taking a bunch of tables and either just dumping them into Wikipedia (try wikidata) or writing articles based on trends or analysis of what the narrative that corresponds to the data is. However, that does not mean that valuable data should not be included in context where appropriate, as interpreted and contextualized by secondary sources. Tertiary is a dicier issue, ie other encyclopedias. But let's leave that aside because I think it has entirely orthogonal considerations. Andre🚐 22:19, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- User:WhatamIdoing/Database article is written entirely from a single database entry. Please identify the "material—such as facts, allegations, and ideas—for which no reliable, published source exists" in that page. If you can't, you may want to revise your opinion about whether "writing articles based on datasets is WP:OR". WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:08, 10 October 2023 (UTC)
Digression
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Explicit and implicit synthesis examples.
I find the examples of synthesis near the top of the article very clear and helpful. However, I noticed there was a potential example missing that may complete the set and make an even clearer guideline. Here's my revision below.
Below are three example sentences demonstrating improper editorial synthesis. On their own, the two factual claims in each example may be reliably sourced. However, in the first example they have been joined into a new, synthetic statement with a conjunction such that the second clause explicitly questions the first clause, ultimately claiming that the UN has failed to maintain international peace. If no reliable source has combined the material in this way, it is original research.
The United Nations' stated objective is to maintain international peace and security, but since its creation there have been 160 wars throughout the world.
In the second example, the same sourced material is used to synthesize the opposite meaning by using a different conjunction and an additional qualifying term, illustrating how easily an article's framing can be skewed by sourced material used to make claims not actually made by any one source:The United Nations' stated objective is to maintain international peace and security, and since its creation there have been only 160 wars throughout the world.
The previous two examples both explicitly compose material in an improper way, adding words with specific meanings to make an additional, synthetic claim. However, meaning is also implicitly created by juxtaposition alone: the very fact that two statements are placed side by side implies that one is somehow related to the other. The third example simply states the two factual claims sequentially with no additional language. Whether or not this is an implicit synthesis is dependent on further context, as the surrounding material can likewise clarify implications made by passages in isolation. Ultimately, it is synthesis of a more subjective kind, and arguably where original research overlaps with the distinct policy regarding undue weight. Regardless, care is warranted, as it is possible to imagine many contexts where an unspecified but likely negative implication would be obvious to many readers:The United Nations' stated objective is to maintain international peace and security. Since its creation, there have been 160 wars throughout the world.
Included as well is a bit of copy-editing. Thoughts? Remsense留 20:40, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
- The central idea here might be reasonable, but the introductory text of the new, 3rd example is about 3× too long, especially given the nature of the this section of the page and the examples in it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 11:18, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
- I agree. It's an interesting example, and I even think it represents Wikipedia policy. But it might be better as part of an essay. Shooterwalker (talk) 21:15, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
- That was my qualm, but I struggled to be brief while making the distinction clear. I gave it another shot, how's this?
Remsense留 21:45, 3 December 2023 (UTC)The previous examples add specific words to explicitly create an improper synthesis. However, meaning is also created implicitly by juxtaposition alone. The third example simply states the two claims sequentially. Whether this is an improper synthesis depends on further context. It is possible to imagine many contexts where a likely negative implication would be obvious:
- I don't think it will reduce or resolve disputes. I would unfortunately expect it to increase disputes. Any two adjacent sentences could be claimed to be "implicit synthesis". Consider:
- Treatment for lung cancer may include surgery, radiation therapy, and chemotherapy. The prognosis is poor, and most people with lung cancer die within a few years.
- The wikilawyer will say that putting those two sentences together is 'implicit synthesis', and that it improperly implies that cancer treatment kills people (in his opinion, although probably no one else in the world would agree).
- Unless you can reliably and usefully tell editors how to identify a problematic case, it's generally not helpful to mention it in a policy. It ends up backfiring, as editors make up their own, mutually incompatible definitions and proclaim that their interpretation is the true one. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:07, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
- I think you're right, I think I may stash it for an essay instead. Remsense留 22:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
- Well, if there were enough support to add something like this to the NOR page, that intro text could be squeezed further, since we don't need the text to tell us what was previous and what is following, to re-summarize examples we just read, or to count for us: "
Meaning may also be created implicitly by juxtaposition alone. Whether simply stating two claims sequentially is an improper synthesis depends on further context. It is possible to imagine many contexts where a likely negative implication would be obvious:
" Even with an intro that tight, I think WhatamIdoing raises a serious concern; something like it was tickling at my own brain about this material last night, which is much of why I didn't do a concision pass of my own on it. This strikes me as eminently sensible and has been my experience as well, as a long-term shepherd of various guidelines:Unless you can reliably and usefully tell editors how to identify a problematic case, it's generally not helpful to mention it in a policy. It ends up backfiring, as editors make up their own, mutually incompatible definitions and proclaim that their interpretation is the true one.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 09:33, 4 December 2023 (UTC)- SMcCandlish, certainly. The purpose of a policy like this is to be iron-clad. Remsense留 09:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- @Remsense, I like the idea of writing an essay about this. That could be very helpful, without the burden of trying to make it "iron-clad" on the first go, and with the benefit of having room for lots of examples and solutions. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:39, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, certainly. The purpose of a policy like this is to be iron-clad. Remsense留 09:35, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
- Well, if there were enough support to add something like this to the NOR page, that intro text could be squeezed further, since we don't need the text to tell us what was previous and what is following, to re-summarize examples we just read, or to count for us: "
- I think you're right, I think I may stash it for an essay instead. Remsense留 22:10, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
- I don't think it will reduce or resolve disputes. I would unfortunately expect it to increase disputes. Any two adjacent sentences could be claimed to be "implicit synthesis". Consider:
The reality is that when it's an overreach or POV/contested we call it synthesis; when it's neither we call it summarization of what the source said. Your example points out one of the e many ways of achieving overreach or POV/contested. Also of sneaking in a POV. But I think that being just 1 of many means that it's probably good to not add it to core policy wording. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:53, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
When will Wikipedia start allowing original research?
When will Wikipedia start allowing original research? 2601:646:8B00:D590:A8D8:A7CD:CD01:F7C5 (talk) 06:38, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- It's unlikely that we ever will.—S Marshall T/C 08:47, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
- There's no good reason for us to do that, and it's not consistent with being an encyclopedia. If you have something new that you want to tell the world, post on social media, or start your own website, or send it to an academic journal, or write a book. Ideas and information that the world has never seen before belong in those places, not here. WhatamIdoing (talk) 15:39, 12 December 2023 (UTC)
Input requested
There is a discussion at User talk:David Eppstein#Undue warning of a block regarding a warning about original research. Your input is appreciated. Note: I didn't come seeking input for the conduct part, but about the interpretation that I am pushing original research. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 07:29, 10 January 2024 (UTC) edited 17:46, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- This talk page is for discussing improvements to the policy. It looks like you're looking for more input on a conduct dispute. This is not the venue. If you want input on the content dispute, you could try WP:NORN, but I'd recommend linking to the originating dispute, not the user talk page discussion. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:19, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- First, I have to point out I have had a dispute with you before so I don't consider you an uninvolved or unbiased editor in a case involving me.
- Second, I am not seeking to discuss the issue here but I am requesting input from interested editors to continue the discussion in the talk page I linked. It is normal practice for editors to do advertise in such a manner in related venues to seek uninvolved editors input. Per WP:MULTI and WP:CONTENTDISPUTE (Related talk pages or WikiProjects, this is a related talk page). Thanks. Thinker78 (talk) 17:31, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- But you're not linking to a content dispute but a conduct dispute. None of the steps of WP:CONDUCTDISPUTE suggest referral to a policy talk page, and for good reason. If you would like input on the content dispute, don't link to a user talk page. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:38, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- I would have taken Joe Roe's advice. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:48, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
- Ditto. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 17:49, 10 January 2024 (UTC)