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:::::Personally I'm not interested in the [[WP:CREEP]] issue, I'm just try to clarify the meaning of the paragraph. Whether or not the sentiments in the paragraph are good is a different question ... I just think that if it IS going to be there, it should at least make sense. Does anyone have any objections with the wording as it now stands? [[User:Cop 663|Cop 663]] ([[User talk:Cop 663|talk]]) 23:54, 10 March 2009 (UTC) |
:::::Personally I'm not interested in the [[WP:CREEP]] issue, I'm just try to clarify the meaning of the paragraph. Whether or not the sentiments in the paragraph are good is a different question ... I just think that if it IS going to be there, it should at least make sense. Does anyone have any objections with the wording as it now stands? [[User:Cop 663|Cop 663]] ([[User talk:Cop 663|talk]]) 23:54, 10 March 2009 (UTC) |
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'''<s>Purely decorative icons should be avoided.</s> Icons should not be added for <s>exclusively</s> decorative purposes. While some readers like to add icons in order to give visual interest to a page, aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder, and one reader's harmless decoration may be another reader's <s>ugly</s> distraction. For this reason, it is better to avoid icons that do not provide additional information (for example, adding a country's flag next to its name does not provide extra information about the subject of the article). Exceptions to this <s>rule premise </s> part of the MOS may be found below.''' |
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== Using flags, seals and other icons in the title bar of navboxes == |
== Using flags, seals and other icons in the title bar of navboxes == |
Revision as of 00:13, 11 March 2009
Manual of Style | ||||||||||
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Wording of "Help the reader rather than decorate"
It has been suggested that the wording of this section (WP:ICONDECORATION) is misleading. Please suggest improvements. To start with I would suggest adding "merely" before "decorate", to make it clear that decoration is not always incompatible with helping.--Kotniski (talk) 11:53, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- My suggestion would be to append one of the following texts
- An icon can be considered decorative if it's removal would not affect the users understanding of the topic
- An icon can be considered decorative if it's does not convey any relevant additional information about the topic
- 2 would be my preference Gnevin (talk) 13:48, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- K, I've scanned this page, but I haven't found a description of what exactly is misleading about the wording. I don't object to adding “merely” – but if this suggestion is “to start,” then how else would you improve it?
- To me decoration means ornamentation, the opposite of function. An element is purely decorative if it serves no function at all, so it's a no-brainer that it should be avoided. But I'm not clear on how something we would add can both decorate and help. Maybe I like flowers and you like hearts, for example, but clearly we shouldn't change the square blue list bullets to either hearts or flowers. (Arguably the “book” background graphic in the monobook design is decoration, but it also serves to add texture to the page, visually differentiate its parts, and refer to the theme of encyclopedia.) In an encyclopedia, we should avoid any decoration. A good design is both functional and attractive, without resorting to any decoration at all. —Michael Z. 2009-02-05 15:02 z
- If any user doesn't find relevant meaning in any picture on wikipedia, that user could say that there's no function other than decorating. It wouldn't necessarily be true, it could just mean that that particular user is unfamiliar with the association or lacks pictorial literacy. The guide does nothing to help in determining meaning in this case. Therefore, the guide is useless in helping someone determine if an image is purely decorative.
- Now let's just say for example someone does find communicated meaning but also thinks that the picture is pretty, that would be an example of a picture that is both communicative and decorative. There is no definition that says decorative and communication is mutually exclusive. That's only being erroneously implied here on wikipedia in this guide and in the Edward Tufte article. There is no sources for this false dichotomy. I included a source to the contrary of what's being implied from Edward Tufte's own writings [1]. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:09, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Decorative is not the same as attractive. Attractiveness is an inherent quality of an image or ornament. Decorating is an activity, and refers to someone using the image or ornament. If the element's intent is only to decorate, then it is decorative (regardless of whether it is pretty or ugly).
- Also keep in mind that we are not talking about illustrative photos or diagrams, but symbolic icons – by their nature they serve a specific function: to represent something. In the case of a flag, it's a sovereign country. If a word represents that country, then adding a flag to the word is redundant. The icon differs from the word in that it is less generally useful: how many readers recognize this symbol: ? But any reader can intepret “Guinea-Bissau”. Finally, the icon differs from the word in that it draws they reader's eye from across the page – it is bolder than bold, and stands out in the text more than the top-level heading. If it falls within prose or a textual list, it is generally counter-productive.
- (This also demonstrates why the Ultimate Fighting Championship example cited elsewhere is fallacious. Icons are sed symbolically, not illustratively. They aren't used in a sports article to illustrate the appearance of the English flag for example.
- "Attractive" can be interpreted as "decorative" and that's where suspicions get out of hand. It just encourages an anti-graphic design witch hunt.
- In some cases mentioned in this talk page, we are talking about illustrative generic images, it doesn't have to be photos or a diagram to illustrate.
- If text were always sufficient for communicating meaning, then no images other than diagrams wouldn't be needed anywhere on wikipedia. Text could describe everything.
- If consensus is what determines what is decorative, then theres no need for this guide to even make the attempt. It's just WP:CREEP. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:24, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- The phrasing in the guideline is “icons . . . misused as decoration” and “use of images for decorative purposes.” Do you really think that is easily confused with “don't use attractive images?”
- Very well stated. To add to this, I think there is long-standing consensus for the use of flag icons in several specific situations, such as in lists or tables of items that have close association with individual nations (such as lists of countries, or international sport results), and the intended purpose of those icons is to make it easier for the reader to pick out items of interest by adding visual cues to those lists of data. There is no consensus for the use of flag icons to tag individual instances of country names, such as birth/death locations or nationalities, as found in biographical infoboxes. The purpose of this guideline is to describe those instances of consensus, and that is a Good Thing™. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:01, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- They're easy to ignore at first. I didn't pay them much attention in the tank and AFV articles I watch, until I noticed that a stereotypical “Operators” section had eventually crept into almost every one, and was being shoehorned into places it didn't belong. This kind of stereotyped format is harmful, because without constant attention, and without guidelines to clearly discourage it, it spreads through positive feedback. Eventually we had multiple redundant lists that looked like the United Nations (rather “United Colours of Benneton” on the ass of someone's jeans),[1] main article sections were devoted to 1-item “lists” with icons to help read them,[2] items which didn't belong started to pad out the lists with “potential operators”,[3] and when there was nothing, editors started collecting rumours and recreating the stereotypical sections out of thin air.[4] This is all about people having fun with icon templates, and nothing else, and if it keeps up then Wikipedia will look like MySpace.
- Many experienced editors were against this in part or in whole, but few were interested in taking the time to constantly fight it. I finally decided the only way to stem the tide was to remove every indefensible use of icon pictures in my watched articles, and keep it up. I've tried to work towards more concrete guidelines specific to the Military History WikiProject, but too many editors refused to compromise even a bit, so anything goes, and I can only make progress if I keep pushing hard and rely on these editors' low attention spans. I'm also in the middle of a ridiculous “discussion” which has led to mediation at Talk:Leopard tank. —Michael Z. 2009-02-05 21:37 z
- Comment both wordings suggested by Gnevin say that all flag-icons could be considered informative and/or convey relevant additional information and it can affect users understanding of the topic. Please see the post by --2008Olympianchitchat 22:38, 27 January 2009 above. People who are not familiar with country flags always are going to think that those icons are educational. Therefore, my suggestion is to return to MOS:FLAG that clearly spells it out, flag-icons should not be used within article text. There never is going to be any agreement on WP:ICONDECORATION in general, since what is decorative vs. what is "additional information" depends on ones personal understanding of things and therefore it is open to interpretations. At the time when MOS:FLAG has always spelled out it clearly, what kind of use of "ICONDECORATION" is not desired on Wikipedia.--Termer (talk) 15:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Thanks, but now I'm even more confused. Which four points is Olympian referring to (I see four or five lists preceding his post)? What is meant by “returning to MOS:FLAG” – restoring some text which has been removed?
- And what is there to disagree about? If one can articulate clearly what information some icon images contribute to an article on a topic, then they are functional and justified. But if their only function in an article about ultimate fighting is to educate about the flag of England or to “splash in some colour”, then they are not contributing to that article. Seriously, if a reader is not interested in reading about the Ultimate Fighting Championship, or if the writing is bad, then decorating it with little non-content pictures will not make him read the article, and there is no reason to try to make him read it. People refer to encyclopedia articles with specific goals in mind, and most of them are not to learn to recognize the English flag. —Michael Z. 2009-02-05 15:57 z
- Comment I think that Wikipedia:Images#Pertinence and encyclopedic nature is an existing guideline that better conveys the idea of "help rather than decorate" without using those specific unclear words, at least for many of the non-flag images that have been discussed here. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:18, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- So you're admitting that those words are vague. The word "decorative" could easily be replaced with "distracting" or "irrelevant" throughout this guide, because that's the real problem you are after here. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Comment. Personally, I think the existing wording is just fine. I don't see what all the hubbub is about. Can anyone show a compelling example of this wording being used to cause an actual problem? So far all the examples I've seen have been people removing icons that had no business being in the articles to being with. Kaldari (talk) 17:33, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- The multimedia article was an example of removing images for suspicion of decoration, despite the fact that there was text showing what the images meant in the article. Even though, consensus ruled in favor of removing them, the reasons for removal were various and not aided by this guide. 16 translations of the article include the same icons with translated text [5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20], evidence of meaning. The image were unfairly put on trial by this guide with the mean spirit of calling "pretty" and "childish" pictures. That same mean spirit became viral in that discussion[21]. The ends never justified the means in that case. The article were never proven to be exclusively decorative. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:04, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Bingo. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:42, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- This discussion in not a rerun of the multimedia discussion will you please stop flogging that particular dead donkey. Their was a massive con against does icon and even without this MOS they would of been removed. We've set to see a compelling example and in fact I don't think we willGnevin (talk) 18:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- He asked for an example of this wording being used to cause an actual problem, I gave one. What are you afraid of? It's just a discussion. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- This example is an "actual problem" only in your mind. I can't speak for Kaldari, but I suspect that this example is one instance where icons "had no business being in the article to begin with". — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:55, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- No problem? Sure if you want to ignore the fact that 16 other translators still use the exact same icons. You can't even find 16 users who agree that the icons weren't helpful. Oicumayberight (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- So your best example of this guide is being a problem is a discussion where every user but you agreed the icons where not needed . Every user who took part in the discussion agreed the icons should go. Gnevin (talk) 19:11, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- The more you cling to that consensus, the more you prove that the guide was not helpful. And if you're so sure that the icons were not needed, how do you explain the 16 translations that use the same icons without insulting the translators? Try removing the same icons from those 16 other articles. See how helpful they are. Oicumayberight (talk) 19:25, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- "had no business being in the article to begin with" is a personal opinion at best. Well, lets spell it out what is this "disagreement" all about? Should Wikipedia look like DOS or Mac OS X or something in the middle? In case there are strong evidence that the community supports one or another way to go about it, this discussion and WP:ICONDECORATION has a meaning to it. In case not, again, I suggest limiting this guideline to WP:MOSFLAG.--Termer (talk) 19:17, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- So your best example of this guide is being a problem is a discussion where every user but you agreed the icons where not needed . Every user who took part in the discussion agreed the icons should go. Gnevin (talk) 19:11, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- No problem? Sure if you want to ignore the fact that 16 other translators still use the exact same icons. You can't even find 16 users who agree that the icons weren't helpful. Oicumayberight (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- This example is an "actual problem" only in your mind. I can't speak for Kaldari, but I suspect that this example is one instance where icons "had no business being in the article to begin with". — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:55, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- He asked for an example of this wording being used to cause an actual problem, I gave one. What are you afraid of? It's just a discussion. Oicumayberight (talk) 18:49, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- This discussion in not a rerun of the multimedia discussion will you please stop flogging that particular dead donkey. Their was a massive con against does icon and even without this MOS they would of been removed. We've set to see a compelling example and in fact I don't think we willGnevin (talk) 18:46, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- This guideline is about any use of icon images in articles, whether they be in prose or not. They are virtually always inserted using a template like {{flagicon}}, but that is irrelevant. I mostly see them misused in bulleted lists and infobox tables, in the articles I watch.
Yeah, this guideline is terrible. Nine tenths of its generous 3,500 words consists of what not to do, listing the most egregious defilements that a newbie armed with icons could inflict. A few passages here and there allude in vague terms and with unsupportable assumptions to situations where the pictures are starting to win over the words: “They can aid navigation[citation needed] in long lists or tables of information as some readers[weasel words] can more quickly scan a series of icons due to the visual differences between icon.[citation needed]” This is useless claptrap, encourage those without discretion to put pictures in every possible list and table, completely compromising the readability of words. Two (of three) points in “Appropriate use” actually suggest where icons may be used; one sentence actually states a specific situation where they “are useful” (and links to an example which contradicts the guideline immediadely above).
Why is this guideline such a great top-heavy behemoth? Because bright little GUI elements have practically no place in an encyclopedia article. Because there is no justification whatsoever for 99% of the icons currently in articles, and a communal project does not have the focus or graphical skill to do a decent job of employing the other 1%.
So why is there so much pressure to include icons? My theory is that editors who don't have the patience to actually write, and perhaps not even to read, get gratification out of making an instant visual impact on an article. Give the boy a hammer and everything looks like a nail (God forbid you hand him a sticker book when he's over for a visit). See a few stereotyped examples of structured information, no matter how hard it is to actually make use of it, and he can “improve” great swaths of the encyclopedia to the same standard of glitziness.
Icons don't contribute to reading, in fact they hinder it. They're not even much good for scanning textual material. They're absent from five centuries of professional publishing for a reason.
This 3,500-word treatise could be summarized in one sentence, and Wikipedia would be the better for it: “don't use icons.” —Michael Z. 2009-02-05 20:22 z
- So if your saying that Icons should never be used, then you need a policy (not a guide) to support that. Oicumayberight (talk) 21:10, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- They are used acceptably sometimes, in a very small minority of cases in the articles I watch. And I would be willing to compromise somewhat on a concrete guideline, but there are always holdouts. So I would be happy with a guideline that discouraged some bad uses. But in the meantime, there is no clear guidance and no consensus, so I work against the epidemic. —Michael Z. 2009-02-05 21:43 z
- In it's current state, this is anything but a concrete guideline. But thanks for helping make the case that it is WP:CREEP. Oicumayberight (talk) 21:55, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- Or users could put
.flagicon {display: none;}
into their monobook.css. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:32, 5 February 2009 (UTC)- And how would that improve the encyclopaedia for users as a whole? Gnevin (talk) 21:10, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- What's wrong with the way myspace looks? Oicumayberight (talk) 23:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
- I can't believe this, WP:ICONDECORATION is under discussion , yet Gnevin thinks it would be appropriate to use the questioned guideline to justify his edits by massively removing images, not even icons from film templates. [22]. This has gone beyond reason...--Termer (talk) 03:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- That was agreed with the reliant project and User:Dr._Blofeld . So I don't see a problem Gnevin (talk) 09:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry but that just strait out lie. your claims at Wikiproject film where you justified your random removals with the policies here brought me to this talk page in the first place. Where it has become evident that you have written yourself a guideline to justify your actions. And User:Dr._Blofeld did revert your edits.--Termer (talk) 15:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- No it's not , but that is an out right personal attack. User:Dr._Blofeld reverted the discussed discussed removal of the clapper icons but even removed the random maps and people icons himself [23] Discussion Gnevin (talk) 15:20, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- That's amazing, anybody clicking on the diff can see that User:Dr._Blofeld has simply reverted your edit [24]. and even has told you Rubbish. I will keep reverting you.--Termer (talk) 16:48, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
- No it's not , but that is an out right personal attack. User:Dr._Blofeld reverted the discussed discussed removal of the clapper icons but even removed the random maps and people icons himself [23] Discussion Gnevin (talk) 15:20, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sorry but that just strait out lie. your claims at Wikiproject film where you justified your random removals with the policies here brought me to this talk page in the first place. Where it has become evident that you have written yourself a guideline to justify your actions. And User:Dr._Blofeld did revert your edits.--Termer (talk) 15:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- That was agreed with the reliant project and User:Dr._Blofeld . So I don't see a problem Gnevin (talk) 09:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- I can't believe this, WP:ICONDECORATION is under discussion , yet Gnevin thinks it would be appropriate to use the questioned guideline to justify his edits by massively removing images, not even icons from film templates. [22]. This has gone beyond reason...--Termer (talk) 03:23, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- What's wrong with the way myspace looks? Oicumayberight (talk) 23:08, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems obvious that this discussion is not going anywhere. Just to answer Michael question above: any case where icons are used as navigation links? Please take a look at for example WP:Main_Page#Wikipedia's sister projects. The example given by Oicumayberight where icons were used for a navigation box was essentially not that different. Despite that the icons are even used on Wikipedia main page, this discussion has come down to a suggestion "Don't use icons". Well, I think this question needs some wider exposure, because so far the entire WP:ICONDECORATION is based on WP:IDONTLIKEIT, entirely dismissing the purpose of icons -visual communication all together. Also, please keep in mind that we are all here with an "intention to improve the encyclopaedia".--Termer (talk) 03:59, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- Termer, I was referring to editing articles. Sure there are icons on the Main Page, but that is not an article, and we don't put an array of Sister-Project links in articles. I don't know which other example you're referring to. —Michael Z. 2009-02-06 17:34 z
- “Any template?” Seriously, can you give me one example so I'll know what you mean? —Michael Z. 2009-02-07 18:01 z
- If Termer is referring to the composite used in the multimedia article, I guess you could say that it was the effect of a navigation template, accept that it was only used in the one article. It did contain hypertext links to the separate articles. I'm not going to debate the effectiveness of that example because Gnevin will just call it beating a dead horse and cling to the consensus of about 5 local users, while ignoring the fact that 16 international translators used the exact same composition and that nothing in this guide justified removing it. One of the petty complaints in that debate was that the actual pictures didn't link to the articles, only the text. I guess that would be the only difference between that example and the Wikipedia's sister projects example in the main page. Oicumayberight (talk) 00:45, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
- “Any template?” Seriously, can you give me one example so I'll know what you mean? —Michael Z. 2009-02-07 18:01 z
- Thanks for pointing out that example.
- “Petty complaint?” How are these navigation links if the links don't navigate to anything?! I don't care if 1,000 editors (“translators?”) have turned a simple sentence – “Multimedia contains a combination of content forms: text, audio, still Images, animation, video, interactivity” – into a set of prominent navigation links to the icon image pages!. That doesn't make it any less godawful (nor the even still worse use of icons in the next two article sections, which present the out-of-context phrases “Linear Non-Linear” and “Presentation Interactive”). —Michael Z. 2009-02-08 18:21 z
- This is not an attempt to debate whether or not those icons should or shouldn't have been removed. It's an example, showing how the way those icons were used wasn't much different from the way icons are used in the WP:Main_Page#Wikipedia's sister projects section. You probably think those are godawful too. You've made it quite clear that you don't like icons.
- I said "petty", but I should have said "minor," meaning that the navigation from the actual pictures was a minor problem that could have been easily fixed with an image map, instead of removing the icons. And there was navigation from the hyperlinked text below the icons.
- Furthermore, There was nothing out of context about the text used below any of the icons because the subject matter was discussed in the article. You could debate whether the associations made between the text and the other icons were accurate, but that would also be subjective, because 4 of the 16 translators found meaning in those icons too. Oicumayberight (talk) 19:35, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
- No man, these are different from the Main Page, where 1) important projects are associated with the logos which represent them, and 2) the logos actually are GUI elements, which link to the projects – representation, branding, and links all work together. And we're discussing specific examples, so you can't just brush off the details saying in effect it's exactly like the Main Page except these aren't logos, and the links don't work. The fact isn't “petty” or “minor” when it contributes to a failed implementation.
- And the others on the page are even worse from the point of view of design and conveying meaning. The Major characteristics section discusses many, but only two are symbolized by icons, which have no obvious relationship to the title. Icons should convey meaning at a glance, but you have to read the whole section before you can tell where these fall into what is written here. Finally, the design is such that in my browser “Recorded Streaming” are closer to each other than they are to the words and icons above, so it didn't even make any sense the first couple of times I looked at it. —Michael Z. 2009-02-09 00:44 z
- I didn't say "it's exactly like the Main Page". I said it "wasn't much different from the way icons are used" on the main page. I'm not here looking for consensus to put those icons back in the article. At this point, it won't matter why you think the article is better off without the icons. The facts:
- Putting an image map hyperlink on the actual images would have been a minor fix as an alternative to removing them for those who were expecting navigation to articles from the actual images and not just the hypertext.
- Nothing in this guide justified removing those icons. Which is what we are debating here.
- If consensus got the icons removed, it only makes the case for why the guide is not needed.
- None of your criticism has anything to do with the wording of this guide. 16 translators, thought that the icons worked well enough to include them in their article. That proves that all reasons for removing icons were subjective. And the wording of this guide doesn't make it any more objective. It's just a poor alternative to policy, which you practically admitted yourself by saying it could be summed up in one sentence “don't use icons.” Oicumayberight (talk) 01:42, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
- I didn't say "it's exactly like the Main Page". I said it "wasn't much different from the way icons are used" on the main page. I'm not here looking for consensus to put those icons back in the article. At this point, it won't matter why you think the article is better off without the icons. The facts:
I think List_of_Adidas_sponsorships shows the as some readers can more quickly scan a series of icons argument to be false. This article would be 1000% improved with sortable tables Gnevin (talk) 21:00, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- The example would take up more space if it were a sortable table. It would have columns and rows with a bunch of unused space. Oicumayberight (talk) 21:21, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- The flags in the Adidas list are not used as GUI elements, but merely as slightly annoying and less useful substitutes for abbreviations, or for the subdivision of the lists by subheadings. It's also not WP:ACCESSible, because the flags have incorrect alt text. In a text-only browser part of the page looks like this:
[edit] Africa
* Flag of Egypt El Zamalek * Flag of Morocco FUS Rabat * Flag of Morocco Hassania Agadir * Flag of Morocco IZK Khemisset * Flag of Morocco Jeunesse Massira * Flag of Morocco Kawkab Marrakech * Flag of Morocco Wydad * Flag of Tunisia Étoile Sportive du Sahel * Flag of South Africa Orlando Pirates FC * Flag of South Africa Camps Bay FC
- I can think of two or three ways to improve this by eliminating the flags.
- If you insist on considering them GUI elements, then they are poorly used here. The same flag links to File:Flag of Germany.svg in one place on the page, but to Germany in another. Also, why does any one article or list need 91 links to the article United States? —Michael Z.
Arbitrary section break
I favour this wording of the section:
Icons should not be used solely to improve the visual appearance of an article. Icons which do not provide extra information to a reader or improve the readability of long lists are usually just a distraction (example). Generally, infobox fields containing only one or two entries and articles where nationality is not important should not use flag icons.
The reason for not including flags in infoboxe fields with just one or two entries is simple; look at the picture on the right.--Pattont/c 14:52, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
- I have debated with editors who hold the opposite view: preferring to remove icons from lists and tables in the article, but to add one in such an infobox to identify the origin of the article's subject at a glance. Since an icon functions in such an attention-grabbing way, this may be defensible as a useful application.
- If the problem is only print layout, then that makes this a technical problem, not necessarily an unacceptable application.
- I'm not against your proposal; just saying that this may not necessarily be the easiest example to get consensus on.
- I have seen no evidence that icons necessarily improve the readability of long lists, so I am against stating this. I have only seen specific applications where they may help discern particular qualities in lists. For example, in simple alphabetized lists they are worse than useless. But they might help quantify a third or fourth-order attribute of a mixed list (such as the proportion of silver medal winners who came from a country over a time period, or in a range of events). —Michael Z. 2009-02-08 17:37 z
This discussion has gone in circles for at least 5 rounds by now and again things go into territories that have nothing much to do with the questions raised. Or anther way to put it like Ive also already pointed out, A simple question repeated: why there are 2 sub-guidelines in the guideline that address the same question??? The example given here is also covered with MOS:FLAG what has that to do with ICONDECORATION? The bottom line: everything under WP:ICONDECORATION would be a duplicate of or would simply belong to MOS:FLAG.
But lets return to the reasons for this discussion. Its about that WP:ICONDECORATION has been used to justify the removal of basically all icons from WP. Michael asked for examples. The whole thing that brought me here was an edit warring over filmlist templates where edits by Gnevin still get reverted. [25]. So please see for example the Template:Americanfilmlist. Multiple reasons starting from WP:OR to Icondecoration have been given in order to get rid of the icon in the template.--Termer (talk) 21:17, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
- Their was no edit war, do you even understand what an edit war is . I posted i was going to remove the icons, people agreed, 2 weeks later I started to remove stuff and users objected.I discussed further. No edit war. Gnevin (talk) 22:11, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
- Well, for the last time before I give up: this is yet again another circle, anybody who would take their time and look at the history of Template:Americanfilmlist can see that your edits get reverted. You have run another round of your removals on February 5 on the Category: Film country list templates justifying your actions with WP:ICONDECORATION that has been under discussion here since January 12, when I took the discussion away from WikiProject film to this talk page here [26]. As things have not moved an inch since, and you keep using WP:ICONDECORATION to justify your removals meanwhile, this discussion unlike you say "I discussed further" has been unfortunately meaningless. The bottom line, I haven't seen any consensus on this talk page while the supposed guideline gets edited boldly. And since this has given me an answer to my original question posted at Wikiproject film [27], my job is done here.--Termer (talk) 05:48, 9 February 2009 (UTC)
Oppose expansion of guideline I think that this guideline has ballooned well past what it needs to be. It started out as a guideline on little flags, and now it is way beyond that. I agree with Oicumayberight and Termer 100%. This should go back to being just a flag guideline. Why do we need to expand it any more than it was? We should let individual editors and projects decide how they want to craft articles instead of trying to centrally control everything. Somehow a guideline about logos got added on as well, although there was no need to duplicate what already exists at WP:LOGOS. That section at a minimum should be excised as it sets different standards than what already exists at the other guideline--2008Olympianchitchat 17:11, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Suggested Rewording
This conversation is very circular and has gone off-topic. Here is a suggested rewording of "help the reader rather than decorate" that attempts to take account of all the issues raised. It does not alter the meaning of the section, it just attempts to clarify it. Ideally, it would be placed near the top of the page, with the exceptions listed underneath.
Purely decorative icons should be avoided.Icons should not be added for exclusively decorative purposes. While some readers like to add icons in order to give visual interest to a page, aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder, and one reader's harmless decoration may be another reader's ugly distraction. For this reason, it is better to avoid icons that do not provide additional information (for example, adding a country's flag next to its name does not provide extra information about the subject of the article). Exceptions to thisrulepremise may be found below.
I hope this helps. Cop 663 (talk) 19:00, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- It sounds good, except I would change "purely" to "exclusively" and change "rule" to "premise." It's good that you mentioned distraction because that's the real problem we are trying to solve, not decoration. You could probably replace the word "decoration" with "distraction" throughout the guide and it would be less subjective. The elephant in the room is that some advocates for the guide are against decoration for personal taste reasons other than distraction.
- BTW, the wording in that section is not the only problem with this guide. Some advocates for this guide have tried to downplay the problems with WP:CREEP and excessive subjectivity by removing the dispute tags and archiving the discussions before disputes were resolved. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I disagree with Oicumayberight attempt to neuter this proposal ,with out actively agreeing with Cop663 , and I bang my head repeatedly against the wall that the buzz word of WP:CREEP has been throw out yet again Gnevin (talk) 22:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- I partially agreed with Cop 663. What problems do you have with my suggested modification with the wording?
- I disagree with Oicumayberight attempt to neuter this proposal ,with out actively agreeing with Cop663 , and I bang my head repeatedly against the wall that the buzz word of WP:CREEP has been throw out yet again Gnevin (talk) 22:07, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- BTW, the wording in that section is not the only problem with this guide. Some advocates for this guide have tried to downplay the problems with WP:CREEP and excessive subjectivity by removing the dispute tags and archiving the discussions before disputes were resolved. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- And as for WP:CREEP, it's not just a buzz word or there wouldn't be an essay describing what it means. CREEP is a pattern that this guide reeks of. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:17, 9 March 2009 (UTC)
- Personally I'm not interested in the WP:CREEP issue, I'm just try to clarify the meaning of the paragraph. Whether or not the sentiments in the paragraph are good is a different question ... I just think that if it IS going to be there, it should at least make sense. Does anyone have any objections with the wording as it now stands? Cop 663 (talk) 23:54, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
Purely decorative icons should be avoided. Icons should not be added for exclusively decorative purposes. While some readers like to add icons in order to give visual interest to a page, aesthetics are in the eye of the beholder, and one reader's harmless decoration may be another reader's ugly distraction. For this reason, it is better to avoid icons that do not provide additional information (for example, adding a country's flag next to its name does not provide extra information about the subject of the article). Exceptions to this rule premise part of the MOS may be found below.
I came across this discussion on Template talk:US Presidents#Seal in title bar whether to keep the Seal Of The President Of The Unites States Of America in the navbar on {{US Presidents}}. The argument to keep it was that it distinguishes the template from others that also use some sort of flag or icon. The argument to remove it is that it is completely illegible in an icon scale.
I was hoping something currently on MOS:ICON specifically and explicitly addresses this issue, but I can't find anything. Is there something currently on MOS:ICON now that is related this issue; or if not, should there be? There seems to be a bunch of navboxes like that one that use icons in the navbar that may be completely illegible, especially for people with widescreen monitors. Cheers. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:50, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- One of the problems with this MOS that we have been discussing is that it can't be specific enough. Whether or not an icon is legible at any given small size can only be determined on a case-by-case basis with consensus. The example you show is not legible at that small size, but I don't see that as a problem in and of itself. If it's distracting to readers, then that's a real problem. That could be determined by consensus as well. Oicumayberight (talk) 05:04, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- I would prefer to see the use of any image on a navbox title bar to be discouraged, whether it is illegible or not. I think that larger images inside a navbox, such as the seal inside {{US Presidents}}, are much more helpful to illustrate the navigation topic. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 05:22, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- It should be removed along with the US Flag. At that size it's little more than a blur Gnevin (talk) 09:52, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
- It wouldn't have to be completely legible, just clearly distinguishable, but at that size it is not. One clear symbol next to the title could serve for identification, but framing it with two is excessive. And yes, this is a judgment call: the guideline doesn't get that specific. —Michael Z. 2009-02-11 16:24 z
Comment Since we are all replying to a template can I re add [28] Gnevin (talk) 16:38, 11 February 2009 (UTC) .
- I think “main space” already covers it, but whatever. (Better: adj. main-space.) —Michael Z. 2009-02-11 16:50 z
- Please just don't say "templates", as that is misleading and confusing. Templates can be any wiki markup that is transcluded onto other pages. I think it is better to use phrasing that describe the type of page element, not how it is rendered. Say "infoboxes" and "navboxes", but not "templates". — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 16:54, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
MMA related articles and its related editors are repeatedly violating the manual of style for these flag icons. For example:
- Remy Bonjasky - flag icons in the infoboxes and repeated use of icons in the "Titles" section for every opponent they have fought. And the Randy_Couture article under the "Mixed Martial Arts record" section.
- Event pages like UFC 93, UFC 94, UFC 95, among other articles also have flagcruft.
Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts is just encouraging the blatant violations as the majority of the editors there just revert you if you try to remove these violations and any change for reform on the projects talk page is also shot down because of the majority of them believing just because all MMA articles or other projects having this violation, then there is nothing wrong. In addition, confusion arises with all these flags because there seems to be no consensus on whether the flags on these articles should be for the place a fighter is coming out of, the place of birth or the nationality of the fighter. Because of this overly hierarchical project, these articles will suffer with the mass amount of icons on them. More outside participation in their discussions about the flag icons needs to occur otherwise this will continue. — Moe ε 23:09, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- I really don't know much about MMA, but there is precedent within other sports. For example, tennis and golf players (especially) have a strong association with their nationalities, and you see this frequently in outside media, including reliable sources we use on Wikipedia. The PGA TOUR website show little flag icons next to each player's name, and it seems you can't watch a Federer–Nadal match on television without the Swiss and Spanish flags being shown every time the score is shown! Therefore, the corresponding Wikipedia pages for those sports can reliably add flag icons without controversy. With respect to MMA then, I think the salient question is how closely aligned are the individual fighters with their nationalities? Is that something you usually see in the reliable sources used for match results, or is it something added only by Wikipedia editors? If it is the latter, we've got a problem. I took a quick look at http://www.ufc.com and not only do I not see any flags, but I don't even see a listing of nationality per fighter (only height, weight, and record). — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:33, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- Watching MMA events myself, mostly UFC, the most a fighter has in association with a flag is that before they start to fight, it is announced what state/country they are fighting out of, which is what is generally placed in articles, but confusion arises since none of these articles specify a country next to the flag name and they don't specify what it means, as sometimes the nationality, place of birth and place they are representing are all different. Regardless of what flag or meaning is put in there, the issue of whether it should include flags at all remains to be the problem. — Moe ε 23:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
- That's precisely why they should be removed from MMA articles, then. Since the choice of flag meaning is made by the Wikipedia editor instead of by outside sources, and that choice is not explained anywhere inside any of those articles (as footnotes, perhaps), those articles would certainly fail several Wikipedia policies. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 00:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
- Watching MMA events myself, mostly UFC, the most a fighter has in association with a flag is that before they start to fight, it is announced what state/country they are fighting out of, which is what is generally placed in articles, but confusion arises since none of these articles specify a country next to the flag name and they don't specify what it means, as sometimes the nationality, place of birth and place they are representing are all different. Regardless of what flag or meaning is put in there, the issue of whether it should include flags at all remains to be the problem. — Moe ε 23:47, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
In addition, I want to give you a statistical outlook of this projects article quality:
- 0 featured articles
- 1 featured list - List of UFC champions (which also has excessive flag icons)
- 0 A-class articles
- 1 Good article - Brock Lesnar - former professional wrestler (which is what the majority of the content discusses) turned MMA fighter (current UFC Heavyweight Champion) - also include excessive flag icons
- 25 B-class articles
- 55 C-class articles
- 370 Start-class articles
- 485 stubs
- 8 lists
- 93 Unassessed articles
Summary: 1 featured list and 1 good article both of which have excessive icons. — Moe ε 00:09, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
- As it is the newest sport in existence, that it has this many articles already says something. As it attracts more fans, it will expand it's selection of featured articles. Considering that Wikipedia as a whole has only one in 1,130 featured articles, the "projects [sic] article quality" is the same as the encyclopedia as a whole, and another article is pending review as I write.--2008Olympianchitchat 17:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
- Newest sport in existence? The UFC promotion itself may be new and even the current rules might be somewhat new, but your project covers all of MMA. MMA as an organized sport has been around since the early 1900s. Other sports that resembled modern day MMA originate back in the day of Olympic Games in B.C. times. It's hardly a new sport; it's just recently gotten more attention than it has previously.
- Anyways, your statement is inherently false as MMA doesn't represent the entire encyclopedia only a small portion of it, and this small portion in particular isn't doing too well. Only two articles out of the 1,000+ articles you cover (and there are more than likely articles that need to be created) are considered featured or even 'good'. Either the system in which the articles are being rated is failing (which I highly doubt) or the way mixed martial arts articles are written has to be changed. And with the majority of the articles covering mixed martial arts seems to be event pages clogged up with flag icons or biographies with icons in the infoboxes and results tables, there seems to be a correlation between the lack of quality and flag icon use. — Moe ε 10:08, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- My statement is that the feature article rate for MMA articles is the same as that if the encyclopedia as a whole, which is demonstrably true from the numbers cited above. A lot of the MMA articles do need to have their ratings upgraded. One of the larger articles is currently undergoing a feature review, and despite a lot of work that has been suggested, not one reviewer has mentioned anything about the flags. The shortcomings in the MMA articles are mostly a product of difficulty in finding reliable sources, as MMA, despite huge popularity and ratings and PPV buys that only in the last two years have exceeded boxing and pro wrestling, does not yet receive the coverage by major media outlets that other sports enjoy. It is laughable to think that is has anything to do with the flags.--2008Olympianchitchat 16:11, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- The similarities between the projects total and the Wikipedia total is flawed, as there isn't a WikiProject to collectively edit every article on Wikipedia, thus making the actual number skewed. If you wanted to make an actual comparison, you would put statistics up against another WikiProject. And I'm glad no one mentioned the flag issue on the article that is under review, because I will gladly mention the issue there myself..
- Lastly, I would like a source that says MMA surpassed pro wrestling or boxing in "the last two years", because the last major event for MMA and professional wrestling which came within 6 days of each other (UFC 94 and Royal Rumble (2009) respectively) it appears that Royal Rumble had a larger attendance than UFC 94. :) — Moe ε 18:43, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- I don't know why I need to give you a source for something that is not really germane to anything we are discussing. But since you seem to need to argue everything some else says, whether or not it relates to the larger discussion, here you go: "The debate has been ongoing ever since UFC’s pay-per view numbers from 2006 were released. The UFC broke the pay-per-view industry’s all-time records for a single year of business, generating over $222,766,000 in revenue during 2006, surpassing WWE and boxing." My point above was that even if the MMA Project has not had many feature articles, you have not shown that is has anything to do with flag use. You confuse a correlation with causation, a pretty common mistake.--2008Olympianchitchat 03:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- My statement is that the feature article rate for MMA articles is the same as that if the encyclopedia as a whole, which is demonstrably true from the numbers cited above. A lot of the MMA articles do need to have their ratings upgraded. One of the larger articles is currently undergoing a feature review, and despite a lot of work that has been suggested, not one reviewer has mentioned anything about the flags. The shortcomings in the MMA articles are mostly a product of difficulty in finding reliable sources, as MMA, despite huge popularity and ratings and PPV buys that only in the last two years have exceeded boxing and pro wrestling, does not yet receive the coverage by major media outlets that other sports enjoy. It is laughable to think that is has anything to do with the flags.--2008Olympianchitchat 16:11, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
- As it is the newest sport in existence, that it has this many articles already says something. As it attracts more fans, it will expand it's selection of featured articles. Considering that Wikipedia as a whole has only one in 1,130 featured articles, the "projects [sic] article quality" is the same as the encyclopedia as a whole, and another article is pending review as I write.--2008Olympianchitchat 17:25, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Violation?
How can one violate a guide? One can violate a WP:policy. Guidelines are more advisory in nature. How does one violate advice? Oicumayberight (talk) 18:35, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
- Well for this particular situation, there are more than just the manual of style in discussion, because the use of flag icons have no verifiability, which is a policy. No you really can't violate a guideline, maybe 'violate' shouldn't have been said, but you can have a total lack of regard for guidelines. Guidelines are there for a reason.. — Moe ε 19:22, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- If the advice is being disregarded, then perhaps it's being seen as subjective. One can neither make an objective argument for or against a subjective opinion. Maybe the advice just isn't good enough. Oicumayberight (talk) 20:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- But then, perhaps putting a picture of a flag next to each of ten occurrences of “United States” in a table is just useless (an objectively defined quality). We see this again and again in these articles – an editor habitually and systematically adding flags for no purpose except to reinforce a stereotyped usage he's seen elsewhere. This is how icon pictures reproduce, by using uncreative editors as their host. —Michael Z. 2009-02-17 21:22 z
- WP:USEFUL or useless needs qualifiers to be objective. Even with discussion, not finding a use isn't the same thing as useless. You'd have to prove a negative. Asking the editor who included the flags would be a better indication of intended use. Oicumayberight (talk) 23:00, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- What ever about the discussion above about using the national flag for these sports men, there is zero need for them at the locations Gnevin (talk) 21:39, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
- But then, perhaps putting a picture of a flag next to each of ten occurrences of “United States” in a table is just useless (an objectively defined quality). We see this again and again in these articles – an editor habitually and systematically adding flags for no purpose except to reinforce a stereotyped usage he's seen elsewhere. This is how icon pictures reproduce, by using uncreative editors as their host. —Michael Z. 2009-02-17 21:22 z
One of the reasons for the flag use is that the UFC uses them in their fight intro screens. Also, fighter nationality is verifiable from several reliable sources, such as Sherdog.com. There is a discussion underway at the Project talk page about the flags. I would wait to see what they come up with in terms of sourcing before anyone here starts removing the flags or there will be a huge edit war.--2008Olympianchitchat 04:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
- I can't seem to find the flag icons used on Sherdog.com (can you provide a direct link?) I scrolled through the site some and even found a stats subpage (you would think you could something there, right?). Stats you can search through: first name, last name, nick name, association, weight class, organization. Nope nothing. Maybe a UFC fighter's page on the sherdog website will have it? Brock Lesnar was searched for with success [29]. A nice profile that lists useful information and whatta know even Sherdog.com has the same kinda mixed martial arts fight histories like the Wikipedia articles do. The table consists of the Result, Opponent, Method, Event Title, Date, Round and Time but the only difference seems to be that they don't have flag icons. Hmm.. — Moe ε 22:36, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
I wrote nothing about finding flag icons on Sherdog. I wrote that "fighter nationality is verifiable from several reliable sources, such as Sherdog.com." See Brock Lesnar's page for an example. The idea is to prevent edit wars by having a verifiable source. I did write that the UFC uses the flags in their broadcasts. Watch tomorrow night and see for yourself. And just because a website (like this one giving Olympics results) doesn't use flags is not relevant to whether Wikipedia should use flags.--2008Olympianchitchat 03:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- The point is you need a reliable reference that used flag icons that proves that the use is verifiable. The nationality is of course verifiable with Sherdog. What you fail to provide is a reference that has flag icons that associates a fighter with a country. Flags should be added to an article where there are undeniably a link between the athlete and the country and there is nothing to say that there is. And thank you for cleverly pointing to the website that doesn't have flag icons and avoiding the websites that actually do have them. — Moe ε 03:49, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sure, I admit that most Olympic websites use flag icons, they are the genesis of this notion of use, but some do not, and the point is that whether they do has nothing to do with what we do here. You are adding requirements for flag use that are not in the guideline. Nowhere in the guideline does it state that flag use has to be shown elsewhere before flags can be used in Wikipedia.--2008Olympianchitchat 04:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- No, not on this page, but all of Wikipedia is required to be verifiable, which is policy. The flag usage have not been sourced, as I stated below. — Moe ε 22:32, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- Sure, I admit that most Olympic websites use flag icons, they are the genesis of this notion of use, but some do not, and the point is that whether they do has nothing to do with what we do here. You are adding requirements for flag use that are not in the guideline. Nowhere in the guideline does it state that flag use has to be shown elsewhere before flags can be used in Wikipedia.--2008Olympianchitchat 04:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
I posted a neutrally-worded notice at the MMA project for the editors there that this discussion was underway. I see no bias either to keep or delete at the Project, and I think that they are the most knowledgeable as to whether MMA events are international competitions.--2008Olympianchitchat 04:51, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- Moe don't you have something else to talk about, i thought you said you're done talking about flags? There's at least 6 Wikipedia Projects using flags the same way, - WP: Ice hockey, WP:Football, WP: Boxing, WP: Rugby, WP: Martial Arts, WP: Motorsports - these are just the ones I'm familiar with. MMA is a worldwide sport like any other.
Sourcing
As for the proper source, I think that we have a couple of options and should decide which on would be the most appropriate. Sherdog.com lists the nationality of each fighter. The UFC.com page, however, is closer to the guideline's requirements. It lists nationality but also where the fighter is "fighting out of." I would think that this is the most appropriate to what the guideline is referring.--2008Olympianchitchat 04:58, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- This is getting into interesting territory. The integrity of our article content is assured by the requirement to source all facts. But of course there is no such requirement for the typography and graphic design of articles. This is mostly okay, because we imitate the design of encyclopedias and other academic publications, which tend to be minimalist and purely functional.
- But we also report sports scores. Encyclopedias don't do this, so we imitate the TV. Too bad, because neither encyclopedias nor websites are TV.
- Maybe there should be a requirement that our design innovations should follow a specific published precedent. —Michael Z. 2009-02-21 06:19 z
- As long as the "requirement" was a policy and not merely acting as policy in the guise of a guide. Oicumayberight (talk) 22:35, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe there should be a requirement that our design innovations should follow a specific published precedent. —Michael Z. 2009-02-21 06:19 z
- 2008Olympian, your comment is the reason why sourcing for a flag is needed. You cite Sherdog nationality as a source and yet you use fighting out of as the source on the UFC website. Sometimes they are the same country, but mostly, those are two very different things. The source you provide has to accurately detail a country representation to the fighter. Country representation is not nationality or place of birth. The closest you have is fighting out of and even that is inaccurate, as some "fight out of" the United States but carry the Mexican flag around. If you have a reliable source for country representation (like the Olympics, Golf, etc.) to a fighter and the source accurately details it then having the flags in the articles may have some legitimate use. So far, you haven't provided that. — Moe ε 22:27, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
- And to further solidify that "tale of the tape" from UFC isn't reliable: I was watching UFC 95 the other day. Interesting to note the only time they use flags is during the tale of the tape segment and what did it say?: Born with a flag on both sides representing each fighters place of birth. Please read Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons)#Do not use flags to indicate locations of birth and death for furthur information on that.. the UFC 95 article is reeking this, by the way. — Moe ε 05:41, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
::No, I agree that Sherdog.com won't work for just the reason that you mention. The only source that might work is the UFC.com page that has "fighting out of" as a source. Yet I see that the fighters themselves emphasize nationality, not where they are training. After this discussion, I think I have to concede that the flags, as used, should probably go.--2008Olympianchitchat 06:03, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
- ---Please see my reply in the ongoing debate at WT:MMA#Flag use debate.--2008Olympianchitchat 02:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Proposed change
I've notice that the word long has become a issue and some people feel its unclear , I propose the following change
They can aid navigation in long non-alphabetically ordered lists or tables of information as some readers can more quickly scan a series of icons due to the visual differences between icon. Comments? Gnevin (talk) 14:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- They can aid navigation in alphabetically ordered lists as well if the alphabetical order is not the same as the icon order. Nothing wrong with having multiple organization schemes in one list, alphabetical and pictorial. You can't spell out everything that's going to work or not work without attempting to make this a long lesson in graphic design principles.
- Any adjective such as "long", "small", or unspecific quantifier such as "too many" will always be subjective, not objective. All the clever wording in the world won't change that. Oicumayberight (talk) 15:31, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- Are we talking case-by-case or in general? Supposing someone had a list of Olympic athletes from different countries with the last names in alphabetical order. Any flag could appear anywhere on that list depending on that persons last name. Oicumayberight (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- I mean not ordered by country changed
- They can aid navigation in lists or tables of information not ordered alphabetically by country as some readers can more quickly scan a series of icons due to the visual differences between icon.Gnevin (talk) 16:13, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- That's less subjective, but not completely true. Some people recognize colorful pictures faster than they recognize monochrome letters or words. So even if they were ordered by country, some people would be aided by the pictures.
- Are we talking case-by-case or in general? Supposing someone had a list of Olympic athletes from different countries with the last names in alphabetical order. Any flag could appear anywhere on that list depending on that persons last name. Oicumayberight (talk) 16:08, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- Don't get me wrong, I'm all for removing subjective words like "long" from this guide. Any removal of subjectivity in the guide is an improvement. But until this guide can objectively explain what is wrong with icons, it's just a poor substitution for policy. Oicumayberight (talk) 16:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- You've already attempted to get blood from that stone. We are not discussing that issue. The point is not about recognizing monochrome over colour , it about knowing I'm at A I want W most user will jump a bit say now I'm at T a little more down Gnevin (talk) 16:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- Are you telling me what I can and can't discuss on a talk page? Your bossy tone and antagonistic sarcasm will not change the facts that this guide is subjective and a poor substitute for policy. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:25, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- NO I'm telling you what I will and will not discuss Gnevin (talk)
- You don't need to tell me what you won't discuss. Just excuse yourself from the discussion and you won't be discussing it. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- NO I'm telling you what I will and will not discuss Gnevin (talk)
- Are you telling me what I can and can't discuss on a talk page? Your bossy tone and antagonistic sarcasm will not change the facts that this guide is subjective and a poor substitute for policy. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:25, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- You've already attempted to get blood from that stone. We are not discussing that issue. The point is not about recognizing monochrome over colour , it about knowing I'm at A I want W most user will jump a bit say now I'm at T a little more down Gnevin (talk) 16:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- Don't get me wrong, I'm all for removing subjective words like "long" from this guide. Any removal of subjectivity in the guide is an improvement. But until this guide can objectively explain what is wrong with icons, it's just a poor substitution for policy. Oicumayberight (talk) 16:36, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- I've seen instances where the alphabetical ordering by country is not obvious. I've seen edit warring over whether The Bahamas is listed under "T" or "B". Or should Chinese Taipei be under "C" or "T"? I disagree with this restrictive change. There is nothing wrong with grey areas in this guideline, as long as common sense is used. And you can't legislate common sense. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:28, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with grey areas in this guideline as long as it is being seen as a guideline and not a policy. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- Why do you keep harping on that? The very top of the page says "This guideline is a part of the English Wikipedia's Manual of Style..." What else do you want? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- The reason I keep harping on that is because of the language in the guide and how it's being used. It's not written like a guide. It's written like a policy. And those who know better often fail to clarify when it's referred to as policy. If I have to compile a list of all the times this guideline is referred to as a policy, it will be for the administrator's notice board. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:59, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- Why do you keep harping on that? The very top of the page says "This guideline is a part of the English Wikipedia's Manual of Style..." What else do you want? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:34, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
- There is nothing wrong with grey areas in this guideline as long as it is being seen as a guideline and not a policy. Oicumayberight (talk) 17:32, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Sports infoboxes - a contradiction?
Following this discussion, there appears to be a contradiction on this page. Under the heading Do not use too many icons, it states "When added excessively, they clutter the page and become redundant, as in this sportsperson's infobox. Here, a single flag icon might be appropriate, e.g. next to the national team the article subject played for."
However, further down the page it specifically states "As with other biographical articles, flags are discouraged in sportspeople's individual infoboxes."
So which is correct? Are they appropriate for an infobox, or aren't they? Bettia (bring on the trumpets!) 11:55, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
- The As with other biographical articles, flags are discouraged in sportspeople's individual infoboxes. is correct . Removed the other stuffGnevin (talk) 12:56, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
Beautiful example
I haven't seen one like this for a while. --John (talk) 13:54, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- Interesting that the vast majority of examples and applications of this guide is for flags. The rest of the examples are of crests and logos. Why it was expanded to include generic icons makes absolutely no sense. Oicumayberight (talk) 15:55, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- Editors also misuse those types of images. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- There isn't very many examples of misusing generic icons, and no examples in this guide. There certainly wasn't enough examples to warrant the expansion of this guide to include them. Oicumayberight (talk) 23:25, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- Editors also misuse those types of images. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 17:02, 10 March 2009 (UTC)
- ^ Edward Tufte. "The Visual Display of Quantitative Information". Graphics Press, 2001. ISBN 0961392142. Chapters 5 and 6 in particular.