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::"We all wish that"... "MANY editors opinion" ... really? '''You've only made three edits in your life on this site and all three of them are to oppose my edits on a couple of unrelated topics.''' Who are you to talk about "we" and what "many" editors think? Looks like we likely have yet another sockpuppet being used to furhter a conflict and pretend to have more people in support of a position that really exist. Your comments here are also quite extreme violations of [[WP:NPA]]. I'd suggest an admin block this account, because this person is clearly not a new member, clearly not here to work on an encyclopedia, and is clearly solely here to try to further conflict. [[User:DreamGuy|DreamGuy]] ([[User talk:DreamGuy|talk]]) 15:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC) |
::"We all wish that"... "MANY editors opinion" ... really? '''You've only made three edits in your life on this site and all three of them are to oppose my edits on a couple of unrelated topics.''' Who are you to talk about "we" and what "many" editors think? Looks like we likely have yet another sockpuppet being used to furhter a conflict and pretend to have more people in support of a position that really exist. Your comments here are also quite extreme violations of [[WP:NPA]]. I'd suggest an admin block this account, because this person is clearly not a new member, clearly not here to work on an encyclopedia, and is clearly solely here to try to further conflict. [[User:DreamGuy|DreamGuy]] ([[User talk:DreamGuy|talk]]) 15:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC) |
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:::Sigh. As a long time user, I am guessing you kow precisely where to submit a request to an admin regarding suspected sock, right? I ask bc it would seem awfully clear that this page doesn't appear to be that place. - [[User:Arcayne|<span style="color:black">'''Arcayne'''</span>]] [[User talk:Arcayne|<small><span style="color:gray">(<sup>'''cast a spell'''</sup>)</span></small>]] 06:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC) |
:::Sigh. As a long time user, I am guessing you kow precisely where to submit a request to an admin regarding suspected sock, right? I ask bc it would seem awfully clear that this page doesn't appear to be that place. - [[User:Arcayne|<span style="color:black">'''Arcayne'''</span>]] [[User talk:Arcayne|<small><span style="color:gray">(<sup>'''cast a spell'''</sup>)</span></small>]] 06:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC) |
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::::Sigh. your a troll that makes wiki worthless and nobody wants to put up with this anymore |
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== [[Feminine]] and [[Masculine]] == |
== [[Feminine]] and [[Masculine]] == |
Revision as of 15:00, 23 August 2008
See also |
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Someone might like to look at this page which purports to be a dab page but which has an ownership problem. Abtract (talk) 08:06, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I made a cleaning pass over it and Indo-European. But the ownership issue may be sticky. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- To me, it seems like it is less of a disambiguation page and more of a page explaining what Pre-Indo-European means. None of the articles seem to have similarly confusing names; rather, it seems that the topic itself is confusing, which an article itself could clear. -- Natalya 20:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe it's a set-index article? I once had similar problems at cleaning up Orthodox Christianity, and I am wondering now if it was the ownership issues there or my possible mistaking it for a dab page that was the problem. – sgeureka t•c 21:14, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- To me, it seems like it is less of a disambiguation page and more of a page explaining what Pre-Indo-European means. None of the articles seem to have similarly confusing names; rather, it seems that the topic itself is confusing, which an article itself could clear. -- Natalya 20:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Links to other Wikipedias
Occasionally, I see links to foreign language Wikipedias in disambig pages, generally for entries which we don't have an article on. For example:
- RAVA (village)[1] - Hungarian village in Transylvania/Romania
What to do with these? --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 16:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- Delete them, or comment them out, or move them to the dab's talk page. Or, I suppose, create the article by translating the linked one. :-) In this case, there's another article that could be lined instead. -- JHunterJ (talk)
- Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been doing (commenting them out, generally). Just making sure. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 10:38, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
should "see also" section be a hatnote
Proposal to do away with the guide that says that similar and easily confused terms should be in the "see also" section. They should be in a hatnote, like regular articles.
Why should a reader have to go through all the entries before they realize that they are mistaken? In addition, there's some small dab pages with unsightly large "see also" sections. It would be much neater if they were all taken care of with a hatnotes, which are horizontal, not vertical. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I can see a hatnote at the top of a disambiguation page getting rather large, if there are a number of easily confused pages associated with the disambiguation page. There are definitly some "See also" sections that are much larger than necessary, but there are definitly pages with many valid entries. In addition to adding clutter, I think that adding a hatnote at the top of the disambiguation page would take away from the (possible) primary topic and the other main uses for the disambiguation term. Yes, it's true that someone could have come to that page erroneously due to a misspelling, but conceptually the majority of people would be coming for that exact meaning of the page. I feel like having the possible misspellings in a see also section at the end makes things crisp, clear, and organized.
- Also, unlike long articles where it would be a pain to comb through the article to get to the bottom if you were looking for a different meanings, most disambiguation pages are much shorter than articles, so getting down to the bottom of the "See also" section is not a great chore.
- This doesn't mean that we shouldn't be frugal in what we include in the "See also" sections, however. :) -- Natalya 02:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- DeWitt (althogh technically not a dab, but a surname page, they seem to work with the same guidelines) is a prime example. DeWitt is easily confused with De Witt. But a person would have to go through the long list at the article to realize that they might have been mistaken. That searcher might give up even before they reach the "see also" section. The other day I moved the common mispelling from a "see also" section to a hatnote. I think that for that article, and similarly situated articles, a hatnote is the better way to go. Do you agree?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- DeWitt is a dab page, not a surname article. It could be split into a surname article and a dab page if desired. Surname articles, including the lists of name holders on them, do not need to observe the dab guidelines. Multiple wikilinks per line, for instance. Some guidelines still make sense, like not ending the fragments with a period. I'd say a hatnote on a surname article is fine. I'd recommend combining the dab pages DeWitt and De Witt, since they are just navigational aids, and leading the list with links to the new surname page(s) -- the surname article might also cover the name both with the space and without. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:53, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- DeWitt (althogh technically not a dab, but a surname page, they seem to work with the same guidelines) is a prime example. DeWitt is easily confused with De Witt. But a person would have to go through the long list at the article to realize that they might have been mistaken. That searcher might give up even before they reach the "see also" section. The other day I moved the common mispelling from a "see also" section to a hatnote. I think that for that article, and similarly situated articles, a hatnote is the better way to go. Do you agree?--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 04:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's true, it is a dab page, I wasn't carefuel before I spoke. But why should dab pages and surname pages have different guidelines? They are the same type of articles. If a hatnote makes sense in one, it should make sense in the other. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 13:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'd say that's a good example of when having the easily confused meaning as a hatnote is helpful, but what about other disambiguation pages with multiple confused meanings? I'm wary of making that a broad change in the MoS, and would rather engourage ignoring the rules in cases where is appears that it would be much more helpful. -- Natalya 11:22, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- The "broad changes" were initiated when the "see also" MOSDAB guideline was written, making the "see also" section have a different role in dab pages then in regular articles. I'm also wary of "broad changes" and for that very reason the current guideline should be reversed. Consistency between dab pages and regular pages outweigh the benefits of using "see also" the way it's uses in dab pages. If this isn't agreeable, how about modifying the guideline to say that "in certain cases, it makes sense to put the easily confused term in a hatnote"? --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 13:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- (after ec)Personally, I don't think DeWitt and De Witt should be separate pages. The spelling among the place names, and even among the human name, is rather inconsistent. For US places, the articles were created based on names used by the U.S. Census Bureau. However, in many cases the local web sites use a different spelling (or in some cases are inconsistent. Even now, after the pages have been split and scrubbed a few times, De Witt, Iowa and De Witt, New York are listed on both pages, although they currently redirects to DeWitt, Iowa and DeWitt, New York. Among people, Alexander De Witt is listed on DeWitt, but not on DeWitt. I think it would be more sensible to have a single page for these easy confused names. older ≠ wiser 13:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't really have in mind to discuss the "Witts", I had broader policy issues in mind. I guess I should track down a better example. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 13:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- (after ec)Personally, I don't think DeWitt and De Witt should be separate pages. The spelling among the place names, and even among the human name, is rather inconsistent. For US places, the articles were created based on names used by the U.S. Census Bureau. However, in many cases the local web sites use a different spelling (or in some cases are inconsistent. Even now, after the pages have been split and scrubbed a few times, De Witt, Iowa and De Witt, New York are listed on both pages, although they currently redirects to DeWitt, Iowa and DeWitt, New York. Among people, Alexander De Witt is listed on DeWitt, but not on DeWitt. I think it would be more sensible to have a single page for these easy confused names. older ≠ wiser 13:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- So pretty much like Rogue and Rouge? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 14:03, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- (after ec) As a general practice, I don't think hatnotes are appropriate on disambiguation pages. As an exceptional practice, there may be some cases where a hatnote might be appropriate. I have come across them occasionally, and I've tended to leave them be as the hatnote did not strike me as unreasonable. But I don't recall any specific examples though. I can see your point about the "see also" section serving a different function on disambiguation page than in articles. But I would not want to see the contents of the See also sections simply dumped into hatnotes. In many cases, the items in the See also section would simply not be appropriate in a hatnote by any measure. older ≠ wiser 14:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Lord Sesshomaru's example is perfect. It's where a "commonly confused word" should belong in a hatnote, not in the "see also" section. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 15:18, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- (after ec) As a general practice, I don't think hatnotes are appropriate on disambiguation pages. As an exceptional practice, there may be some cases where a hatnote might be appropriate. I have come across them occasionally, and I've tended to leave them be as the hatnote did not strike me as unreasonable. But I don't recall any specific examples though. I can see your point about the "see also" section serving a different function on disambiguation page than in articles. But I would not want to see the contents of the See also sections simply dumped into hatnotes. In many cases, the items in the See also section would simply not be appropriate in a hatnote by any measure. older ≠ wiser 14:05, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- I think hatnotes on dab pages should be an exception rather than the rule; one instance where hatnotes are used often on dab pages though are for wikipedia stuff, see Article (plus incoming links such as good article). I am neutral on that for surname pages, since what should be done in cases like Dyment-Dimond-Dymond-Diamant (disambiguation)-Diament? DeWitt and De Witt can be merged, since they overlap so much, but their respective lengths would also justify keeping them separate; I don't feel strong either way. – sgeureka t•c 15:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. So it looks like we are coming to the conclusion that sometimes merging is appropiate, sometimes a hatnote is appropiate, and sometimes a "see also" section is appropiate. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's seems pretty accurate. I think that the "See also" section should still be consiered the default, however, so that we do not get an abundance of unnecessary hatnotes. -- Natalya 16:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, so I'm going to apply this to the main page. Please revert anything that is unagreeable. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 20:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's seems pretty accurate. I think that the "See also" section should still be consiered the default, however, so that we do not get an abundance of unnecessary hatnotes. -- Natalya 16:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. So it looks like we are coming to the conclusion that sometimes merging is appropiate, sometimes a hatnote is appropiate, and sometimes a "see also" section is appropiate. --brewcrewer (yada, yada) 16:08, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone see any reason to keep any of the four final names listed at Avi on the page? I would normally just discuss it on the talk page of the disambiguation page, but it doesn't seem to be frequented much/ever, so I figured I'd see if anyone thought of reasons to keep them here. The only one I might consider keeping is the link to Avie Tevanian, who may have a nickname "Avie" (even so, that's more of a misspelling). Thoughts? -- Natalya 19:00, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- There's no point in ever discussing anything on disambiguation talk pages, unless an edit conflict comes up, as it may be years before anyone sees your post there. (As for your question, I'll leave that to others to answer) --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 20:21, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'd segregate them to a section "People with the given name Avi" (until Avi (name) is created), and remove "Avie" or move to See also. -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:15, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Cool, those ideas sound pretty reasonable. Thanks for the input! -- Natalya 11:16, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for already doing that, JHunterJ! Just fyi, I moved "Avie Tevian" to the "See also" section, and made the header for the given name section a little smaller, since they are not very big lists. -- Natalya 11:20, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- I can ride with that. I think I was basing the sections off of Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(disambiguation_pages)#People, but those actually people whose names are the disambiguation page, not people-whose-names-include-the-name-of-the-disambiguation-page-who-technically-don't-need-to-be-on-there-because-they're-not-really-known-by-that-name-but-who-we're-including-because-we're-nice. I think it stuck out to me at first glance, since the list was so small, but it does makes sense. Thanks for explaining! -- Natalya 12:42, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Two songs called "Fade"
Here's the situation: There are two songs called "Fade" with articles. The one by Blue Angel has an article under Fade (Blue Angel song) and the one by Staind has a redirect under Fade (Staind song) to the album it's on, Break the Cycle. Now, until a few minutes ago, when I changed it, Fade (song) was the article for the Blue Angel song; I moved it to Fade (Blue Angel song) when I stumbled upon the article, having navigated to Fade (song) looking for the Staind song.
Anyway. I know that Fade (song) should not remain a redirect to the Blue Angel song. My question is, which one of the following should it be a redirect to:
- The Staind song, which is much more popular than the Blue Angel song (whose own article calls it "obscure")
- The omnibus redirect page Fade, which has links to both songs, but also to many other fade-related entities
- A new redirect page under Fade (song) listing just those two songs (and maybe also the Radiohead song with the word in a parenthetical, which is listed at Fade), specifically for those who, like me, navigated to the article of that name looking specifically for a song named "Fade."
--zenohockey (talk) 01:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- Unless I'm quite mistaken, Fade (song) should redirect to Fade, where both specific songs are covered. There is a template to be used on Fade (song) that's called something like "redirect from insufficient disambiguation," but I'm not sure of the exact name. --Tkynerd (talk) 04:23, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- {{R from incomplete disambiguation}}. But, Zenohockey, there is no real reason to move Fade (song) to Fade (Blue Angel song). A hatnote on Fade (song) (when it was an article about the Blue Angel song) directing the handful of people who would reach it by entering "Fade (song)" in the search box to the Staind album would have worked as well, and IMO would be preferable since there's only one full article about any song named "Fade". -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:36, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
- But as as I said in my question, I already moved Fade (song) to Fade (Blue Angel song). Should I put in an AfD to move it back, or take Tkynerd's first suggestion and re-redirect Fade (song) to Fade? --zenohockey (talk) 02:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- Moving a title back over the redirect that was created when it was first moved can be done by any editor; no AfD or admin intervention required. I made the move and added the hatnote to Fade (song). -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- I did not know that. Thanks for your help! --zenohockey (talk) 22:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- Moving a title back over the redirect that was created when it was first moved can be done by any editor; no AfD or admin intervention required. I made the move and added the hatnote to Fade (song). -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
- But as as I said in my question, I already moved Fade (song) to Fade (Blue Angel song). Should I put in an AfD to move it back, or take Tkynerd's first suggestion and re-redirect Fade (song) to Fade? --zenohockey (talk) 02:32, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Primary topic
When there is just one primary topic, the current guidelines seem pretty clear to me. However when there are two or more, then I believe there is rooms for clarification. We have establish previously that variants in capitalisation, punctuation and spelling are not to be distinguished in the lead sentence (see mos:dab#Introductory line, and since the "root article" (Article name on a dab page Article name (disambiguation)) is by definition the primary topic, this combination creates the possibility of more than one primary topic - see HP (disambiguation) as an example. It is how to address this possibility that I would like to see clarified. To start things off I suggest the following additional sentence at the end of the mos:dab#Linking to a primary topic section:
There may be more than one primary topic if variants in punctuation, capitalization and spelling have produced more than one 'root article' such as with HP and hp in HP (disambiguation); each of these primary topics should be given equal prominence at the top of the disambiguation page like this from Freak (disambiguation):
A freak is a person with something unusual about their appearence or personality.
"Freeek!" is a song by George Michael from the album Patience
Freaks is a 1932 film.
The Freak was an unproduced motion picture written by Charlie Chaplin in the early 1970s.
Freak(s) may also refer to:
There may be a better way to do it but I'm sure you get my general thrust. What do you think? Abtract (talk) 09:25, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Freeek!, The Freak, and Freaks do not appear to be primary topics of Freak (disambiguation)], with possibly a case being made for Freaks. Not every variant of punctuation, capitalization, and spelling will be a primary topic. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:01, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Agree with JHunterJ that the variants are not primary topics for Freak. They certainly should be mentioned somewhere on the page, but not as primary topics. I think the best summary of primary topics on dab pages was given by JHunterJ above (mos:dab#Introductory line 2). Here is the relevant portion:
- There is only one article at the root word of any (disambiguation) page. That article is the primary topic. Depending on the set of articles, there may be other articles that would be primary topics of their own dab pages (such as QI (disambiguation)), but those dab pages have been merged or were pre-emptively created in the other dab. On the other hand, there may be still more articles that are variations of spelling, punctuation, or capitalization but would have no (disambiguation) pages to be the primary topic of (such as Q.I (disambiguation), which should not exist, since Q.I is not an ambiguous title); these are not primary topics.
- Although taken out of context of the discussion it is not as clear, but perhaps some version of this should get incorporated into the main page. older ≠ wiser 12:55, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- It is just that interpretation that I am querying. Simplifying my point a bit ... if variants of spelling, punctuation and capitalisation are considered equally suitable for inclusion within a dab page, then they are equal partners and should have equal status in terms of "primary topicness". Indeed this (my) reasoning allows both HP and hp to be primary topics within HP (disambiguation) whereas JHJ's reasoning would surely exclude hp as it is a "variant". Take as an example Freaks ... the dab page Freak (disambiguation) covers that variant just as well as the "main" variant Freak, they have equal status and therefor are both root articles imho; what is the difference between them? JHJ says above, "Not every variant of punctuation, capitalization, and spelling will be a primary topic." Why not? Abtract (talk) 13:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Agree with JHunterJ that the variants are not primary topics for Freak. They certainly should be mentioned somewhere on the page, but not as primary topics. I think the best summary of primary topics on dab pages was given by JHunterJ above (mos:dab#Introductory line 2). Here is the relevant portion:
- One most significant difference between the HP/Hp example and the Freak example is that the HP/Hp is a variance in capitalization, while the Freak example is a variance in spelling. So, they are different words than the dab topic. Thus, I agree with JHunterJ and Older as that would make them non-primary topics. Doing so would fundamentally shift the premise of primary topics and I don't think that makes the pages clear nor friendlier for the readers. --Gwguffey (talk) 14:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- But if that is the case, why do we include Freaks on the page at all? Surely it's either "in" (with equal status) or "out". mos:dab#Introductory line goes to great length to be inclusive of all variants; why does't this apply to primary topics? However I have no axe to grind here but it needs clarifying in the guideline. If the consensus is that spelling variants (even including plurals) have a lower status in this regard, then we had better say so. And what about punctuation variants? Abtract (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ordinarily, Freaks would redirect to Freak. Hence, as JHJ conceded and I tend to agree, a case could be for Freaks being primary on that disambiguation page. Indeed, the version immediately before you edited the page had Freaks listed as a second primary topic. Based on this common practice of redirecting plurals to the singular, the likelihood of mistaken links or searches involving the terms is significant and Freaks could justifiably be considered a second primary topic. The other terms are somewhat different. Arguably "Freeek!" should not even be included in the main listing on that page, but merely noted as a see also. The Freak is a little more interesting. It is a distinctive title, and there could arguably be a separate disambiguation page for The Freak as there are comic book characters commonly known as "the Freak" or "The Freak". Because the definite article may be dropped in casual speech, The Freak should be included on the dab page for Freak, but it is harder to claim it is a primary topic. older ≠ wiser 14:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC) And just FYI, the dab page should also treat terms related to Freaking. older ≠ wiser 14:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'll restate more generically my earlier not that BKonrad quoted:
- Any disambiguation page that has "(disambiguation)" in its title has at least one primary topic, and that will be the page that has the same name minus the " (disambiguation)" part -- the "base name".
- There may be variations of spelling, punctuation, and capitalisation (and number - plurals) of the base name. Some of these may be primary topics, and some of them will not be primary topics. A variant may be a primary topic if:
- The variant spelling had a dab of its own (because there are multiple articles that could have been titled with the same variation) and that dab page was merged with the dab in question.
- The variant spelling could have had such a dab, but rather than creating a separate dab page the multiple entries that would have gone there were added to the dab in question.
- A variant is not a primary topic if there is no hypothetical dab page for it to be the only primary topic of.
- In particular, we want to avoid moving a lot of entries to primary topics if those entries are going to then go counter to the guideline to order the entries by likelihood—even if they could have had their own dabs. If it becomes a point of contention on a particular dab page, we should consider splitting the variations out (or back out) to their own disambiguation pages, list each other in the See also sections. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:53, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- Good. Probably need to note that the primary topic may be a redirect, typically more common with abbreviations, but can happen with other forms as well. Though I'm not sure it will be universally accepted, we might want to suggest how to formulate the sentences for such redirected primary topics (as in the lengthy HP/hp or Baikal discussions). older ≠ wiser 12:15, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'll restate more generically my earlier not that BKonrad quoted:
- Ordinarily, Freaks would redirect to Freak. Hence, as JHJ conceded and I tend to agree, a case could be for Freaks being primary on that disambiguation page. Indeed, the version immediately before you edited the page had Freaks listed as a second primary topic. Based on this common practice of redirecting plurals to the singular, the likelihood of mistaken links or searches involving the terms is significant and Freaks could justifiably be considered a second primary topic. The other terms are somewhat different. Arguably "Freeek!" should not even be included in the main listing on that page, but merely noted as a see also. The Freak is a little more interesting. It is a distinctive title, and there could arguably be a separate disambiguation page for The Freak as there are comic book characters commonly known as "the Freak" or "The Freak". Because the definite article may be dropped in casual speech, The Freak should be included on the dab page for Freak, but it is harder to claim it is a primary topic. older ≠ wiser 14:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC) And just FYI, the dab page should also treat terms related to Freaking. older ≠ wiser 14:50, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- But if that is the case, why do we include Freaks on the page at all? Surely it's either "in" (with equal status) or "out". mos:dab#Introductory line goes to great length to be inclusive of all variants; why does't this apply to primary topics? However I have no axe to grind here but it needs clarifying in the guideline. If the consensus is that spelling variants (even including plurals) have a lower status in this regard, then we had better say so. And what about punctuation variants? Abtract (talk) 14:17, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- One most significant difference between the HP/Hp example and the Freak example is that the HP/Hp is a variance in capitalization, while the Freak example is a variance in spelling. So, they are different words than the dab topic. Thus, I agree with JHunterJ and Older as that would make them non-primary topics. Doing so would fundamentally shift the premise of primary topics and I don't think that makes the pages clear nor friendlier for the readers. --Gwguffey (talk) 14:04, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to be a pain but I disagree with JHJ's summary ... I think it is much simpler: If a variant is sufficiently close to the dab page title to merit inclusion in the dab page then it is a primary topic is much simpler to understand and act upon. The JHJ way is balancing on a pinpoint and liable to cause argument after argument imho. Abtract (talk) 23:46, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- It's simpler even than that: If a variant merits inclusion on the dab, then it merits inclusion on the dab, that's all. Merit for inclusion is not merit for primary topic-ness. The "JHJ way" is not my way -- it's the way the dab guidelines speak about primary topics, and is a look at the spirit of the guidelines. Is a George Micheal music video a primary topic of "freak", an article the reader would have already seen before reaching the dab page? Clearly not -- nobody types in "Freeek!" when looking for the movie or the sideshow attraction or any of the other entries on the Freak disambiguation page. Things that are titled "base name (phrase)" vary from the base name even less than spelling variations, punctuation variations, etc. -- if not for the technical limitations of Wikipedia naming, they wouldn't vary at all. There is no reason to promote minor variations to primary topic-ness ahead of these articles, unless the minor variations would be primary topics of some other dab page. Again, if it's a point of contention, the better solution would be to split any dab page that you feel should have multiple primary topics into multiple dab pages. I don't think that pinpoint-balancing is necessary. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- With respect I think it is your way rather than that of the guidelines because the guidelines don't allow for more than one primary topic; it's this omission I want to correct. I think we have probably discussed this enough to attempt a forward move; my suggestion is that we each put a proposed amendment in the box below, together with a status quo alternative, and see what others think:
(A) - Leave the guidelines unchanged
(B) - insert JHJ proposal here
(C) - Add the following to the end of the primary topic section of the guidelines: "Where a variant (or variants) of the term being disambiguated exists as an article which is considered close enough to the term to merit inclusion on the page, then this variant becomes a second (or third etc) primary topic and should be positioned at the beginning of the page as on HP (disambiguation). This will normally be applicable with capitalization, accent and punctuation variants; with the addition of the word "the" before the term; with plurals; and with common alternative (mis)spellings."
I then suggest that we vote in the normal way but not until your proposal is in place. Does this seem a reasonable idea? Abtract (talk) 13:26, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see that the guideline does not allow more than one primary topic, only that it does not specifically address such situations. I think we may need to agree on baseline definitions though. For purposes of disambiguation, a primary topic exists only when the disambiguation page has "(disambiguation)" in the title and some other article uses the unqualified title (either directly or through a redirect). The placement of the primary topic line on a dab page was simply a nod towards indicating that that term occupies the unqualified title: Since it is unlikely that this well-known meaning is what they [users] are looking for if they've visited the disambiguation page, it should not be mixed in with the other links. Now, IIRCC, that part of the guideline was not adopted without some disagreement. I seem to recall that I expressed some objection, but it would take some digging through the archives to find the discussions. But in any case, the practice is well-established now. And by the logic currently expressed on the guideline for presenting the primary topic separately on the dab page, the only cases where there would be multiple primary topics is when there are alternative spellings with existing articles where a reader could end up on that page and might reasonably have expected to find some other page AND the alternative meanings for the article could easily be confused with the items on the disambiguation page (i.e, there is a combined disambiguation page for what otherwise would have been separate dab pages for distinct primary topics). older ≠ wiser 14:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- "vote in the normal way" -- what would that be? We don't vote on guideline changes; we reach them by consensus. As Bkonrad mentioned, there is no guideline prohibiting multiple primary topics, and I'm observing that there is no guideline that every base-name variation be a primary topic. The only thing that appears to be in question is what "merits" an entry for primary topic-ness, which is also spelled out in the guidelines: "Since it is unlikely that this well-known meaning is what they are looking for if they've visited the disambiguation page, it should not be mixed in with the other links." We could spell out how this works with "blended" dabs (with an example of a page with two primary topics because it is a combination of two disambiguation pages), if that will help, or we could specify that blended dabs should not be created, so that there is only ever one primary topic, and split out the ones that currently have multiple primary topics. But I see no problem with the guidelines as stated, so I don't yet have a proposal to put into your proposed vote. -- JHunterJ (talk) 16:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
For what its worth, I'm with JHunterJ. I don't see that we have much of a problem as things are. I have never had a real problem determining what made some sense nor have I had conflicts about it. (John User:Jwy talk) 16:56, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- (Ec) I think the guidelines do fine as they are now. They allowed us to find a good solution at HP (disambiguation), where, because of not clearly defined capitalization, the primary topic truly could be two different things. Even with the guidelines as they are now, we were able to do that. Now, I'm not too averse to mentioning a short line about the example of HP (disambiguation), but I don't want that to open up disambiguation pages that don't need it to having primary topics. For Freak (disambiguation), for example, I'd much rather make a second disambiguation page at Freaks (disambiguation), and link to that from Freak (disambiguation). The only reason I see the HP example as a valid reason to have two primary topics is because even if you had two separate disambiguation pages for the capitalized and non-capitalized version, there is not enough differentiation in the terms to say which capitalization refers to which (Additionally, the directs from HP and hp make it dually confusing). In most other cases, however, I think that we can find alternate options that do not require primary topics, and thus. If we want to mention HP (disambiguation) somewhere in the MoS, I wouldn't disagree, as long as we make it clear that there needs to be very good reasons for doing this. -- Natalya 16:58, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for discussing it, Abtract. Even if it's sometimes hard to get consensus to change the Manual of Style, and even if it feels to some editors like its uprooting the way we know to do DAB pages, it is good to see if there are ways to improve the way we do disambiguation pages. -- Natalya
Sectioning entires at Bravo
Does anyone have any ideas of further topic sections to make for the entires currently in "Other" at the disambiguation page Bravo? I did a bunch of cleanup on the page, but it still feels like there are a lot of entires clumped together, and if there were any categories we could put them into, it would make navigation easier. -- Natalya 22:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
A few questions
Many people have a tendency to put the word "the" in front of the linked term at the beginning of an entry. Am I correct in assuming that we don't want this?
Second question, frequently editors will make the first word or phrase in an entry bold if we don't have any article for it and they've guessed that it's not worth redlinking. Such as:
- Rhapsody Play List, a playlist format for Rhapsody online music service
Should these be de-bolded? --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 18:22, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
- There definitly shouldn't be bolding for the entries. Unless I'm mistaken, the only things that should be bolded are the link to the primary topic (if there is one) (MoS:DP#Linking_to_a_primary_topic), the name of the subject leading line (Rhapsody may refer to:) (MoS:DP#Introductory_line), and possibly any sections separating the entries (MoS:DP#Longer_lists). The individual entires themselves definitly shouldn't be bolded (MoS:DP#Individual_entries). You may already know the info at the links - I just figured I'd link to where the Manual of Style for reference.
- As for the use of "The"... wasn't 100%, so I did some digging! MoS:DP#Individual_entries says "The link should be the first word or phrase in each entry". So, if there is a blue link for the entry, it sounds like there shouldn't be a "the" before those links. I think this also applies if we decide that a red link is appropriate. If there isn't one, though, MoS:DP#URL_anchor_notation, the blue link that we have in the entry shouldn't start the line - so, in that case, there could be a the, I guess? -- Natalya 19:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Foreign language wikipedias
I noticed something which I thought might be of interest when looking at some of the other Wikipedias. I don't speak any other languages, but I used google's translation service to look at the disambiguation policies of some of the other wikipedias, and I found that they vary quite a bit.
The German wikipedia is the 2nd largest wikipedia, and their guidelines appear to be exactly the same as ours, as far as I can tell. The Polish and Italian wikipedias, on the other hand, have an entirely different disambiguation philosophy, and their pages are a sea of blue links, using piping to cover up the original article titles as is normally done in articles. The Spanish wikipedia only allows one blue link per entry, but uses piping to cover up the sloppy looking article titles, and all entries end in a semi-colon.
I can't really tell the finer points of their guidelines, as the translations are not so good, but from the parts I can make out, I found it interesting how the different Wikipedias ended up having very different ways of handling disambiguation pages. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 20:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Capitalisation
I disagree with this:
- "Start with a capital letter unless the target article is marked with {{lowercase}}."
There are many pages which mix proper and common nouns. Using an initial lowercase for the latter will ease distinction for readers. We are already careful to preserve unusual capital/lower usages e.g. PuTTY on putty (disambiguation); NeXT, N.EX.T and NEXT on next. Why the refusal to preserve the most widespread of all such usages? jnestorius(talk) 12:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- This practice on disambiguation pages is adapted both from common usage in English, as articulated in the guideline for lists, Wikipedia:Lists#List styles, which has the following guidance: As a matter of style, list items should start with a capital letter. They should not have a punctuation mark such as a period, a comma or a semi-colon at the end, except if a list item is one or more full sentences, in which case there is a period at the end. older ≠ wiser 13:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Although interestingly, the main WP:MOS is more flexible as described in the section Bulleted and numbered lists: When the elements are sentence fragments, they are typically introduced by a lead fragment ending with a colon, are formatted using consistently either sentence or lower case, and finish with a final semicolon or no punctuation, except that the last element typically finishes with a final period. I can see where that is reasonable, since lists consisting of single words or short terms are often uncapitalized. But in general, I think it is more common to use sentence case on lists, especially where the list consists of heterogeneous elements, and, as typical, on disambiguation pages the disambiguation lists frequently include at least two parts separated by a comma or other compound structures for which sentence case seemed more appropriate as the default guidance. older ≠ wiser 13:19, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Whatever about Wikipedia, I don't believe it is standard English style to require vertical list entries to begin with a capital. It is often permitted but more often prohibited than required.
- What do you mean by "sentence case"? The list elements are explicitly not sentences, so the initial capital of a sentence does not apply. Modern dictionaries do not capitalise headwords of entries; DAB pages are similar to dictionary entries.
- jnestorius(talk) 13:39, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't believe it is standard English style to require vertical list entries to begin with a capital. It is often permitted but more often prohibited than required. -- When editing Wikipedia, Wikipedia style guidelines apply. In my experience, vertical lists (other than those consisting of short words or terms) in general use sentence case. I'm the various style manuals with have divergent guidance. The Chicago MOS suggests that each entry begin with a capital letter—whether or not the entry forms a complete sentence. In my experience, I'd say sentence case is more common for lists similar to what is found on disambiguation pages, although YMMV. In any case, the guideline has been such for quite a while and at least has some support from recognized style authorities, I think a better argument than "I don't like it" is needed to develop any consensus for change. older ≠ wiser 15:31, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Nope, the CMOS says numbered lists should begin with a capital letter, whereas "A group of unnumbered items each of which consists of an incomplete sentence should begin lowercase and requires no terminal punctuation". DAB lists are of course unnumbered . Apart from WP:UGH, my arguments are:
- An initial upper or lower case letter is a useful aid for distinction and recognition; DAB pages are about ease of navigation.
- Forcing an init-cap is inconsistent with the preservation of other distinctive lettercase in DAB items.
- There is no need to have DAB-list style conform with article-list style; the purpose of each is different.
- jnestorius(talk) 15:43, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Nope, the CMOS says numbered lists should begin with a capital letter, whereas "A group of unnumbered items each of which consists of an incomplete sentence should begin lowercase and requires no terminal punctuation". DAB lists are of course unnumbered . Apart from WP:UGH, my arguments are:
- I tend to agree. A lot depends on how widely the present guideline is actually adhered to. If it isn't, then we could quite easily change it unless someone comes up with strong arguments in favour of it. However, if it's being observed fairly consistently at the moment, then changing the approved style is going to mean a prohibitively large amount of work to bring existing pages in line.--Kotniski (talk) 15:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Re: CMOS. the FAQ I referred to above states Bulleted lists "are treated the same as numbered lists in terms of capitalization and punctuation." If the CMOS proper says something different, well, that's a problem for the CMOS editors. The practice is widespread in disambiguation pages. It would require significant effort to update pages for what, IMO in any case, is very little benefit. older ≠ wiser 16:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The first part of your argument stands strongest with me. After thinking about it for a while (as much as I have a tendancy to not want to fix things if they aren't broken :) ), the ability to distinguish between proper and non-proper nouns on a disambiguation page could add to ease of navigation. Kotniski brings up a good point, though, about the difficulty of implementing it. If there was to be consensus that we should change it, I don't think we should let it being time-consuming to implement (at least with the already created pages) stop us, but it's something to keep in mind. -- Natalya 18:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The problem with this discussion is that it is simply a rehash of what must have been discussed in the article naming debate years ago. Dab entries almost all start with an article name and article names (mostly) begin with a capital letter. We are disambiguating articles so we surely must use the article name ... which starts with a capital. Abtract (talk) 22:20, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- True, that was something I was thinking about for a while. All of the lowercase article names go right to their uppercase counterparts (apple goes right to Apple). True, unless there is a specific reason for it, the actual article name is supposed to begin with a capital letter. Is there harm in having the upper/lowercase letter based on whether it is a proper noun or not on the disambiguation page? If there are valid reasons not to do it, then, y'know, we should leave it as it is. If not, though, it seems like there could be some disambiguation benefit. -- Natalya 22:25, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
- Article names begin with a capital due to technical limitations, not stylistic choice: see Wikipedia:Naming conventions (technical restrictions)#Lower case first letter. Since apple links to Apple, there is not even the need for the kind of pipetrick that is currently prescribed for book-titles, etc. I think the kind of consistency Abtract advocates is spurious and pointless. jnestorius(talk) 00:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Setting aside, for a moment, the debate over which style would be better, I think a more practical question is, who exactly would edit nearly 100,000 disambiguation pages to make them all conform to the new guideline? Probably 99.9% of pages have all the links starting with a capital letter, even those which are otherwise wildly out of sync with the manual of style.
- The answer, of course, is - no one. Even I, in the middle of my massive cleanup project, wouldn't be willing to do that, as the idea of making an unnecessary stylistic change which would then require 90% of disambig pages to be changed seems ridiculous. If this were 4 years ago, we could reasonably argue over whether this would be a good thing, or whether we should end entries in a semi-colon or perhaps a comma, or if putting the link in bold might be better.
- But after 100,000 disambiguation pages have already been written? Nobody's going to fix them all to meet the new policy, and the end result would be a complete lack of consistency, with a tiny but growing number of pages meeting the new policy and the great (but slowly shrinking) majority now violating it.
- And even the editors who have never read the manual of style and think every other word should be a blue link and entries should have references and photos, even they all seem to naturally want to capitalize the first word in an entry. So the new pages being written would mostly be violating the new guideline as well. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 09:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- This is really a meta-question, perhaps deserving of its own page: to what extent should agreeing a change in the MOS be dependent on the degree of effort required to retrofit existing pages to the new standard? The MOS has two purposes: (1) ensure a level of quality for each page (2) ensure consistency between pages. There is a tradeoff between these two objectives: favouring (1) encourages frequent tweaking of the MOS; favouring (2) requires a stable if imperfect MOS. I believe the nature of Wikipedia adversely impacts both objectives, but affects (2) more severely than (1). For myself I favour (1) over (2): the prospect of a large number of pages spending long periods of time not fully MOS-compliant does not cause me any great alarm; a change in the MOS does not instantly make a good page bad (or a bad page good). That said, I would agree that any wide-ranging change like the present proposal could not reasonably be approved without a long and broad discussion leading to a strong consensus. jnestorius(talk) 12:01, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, it is a meta-question. In looking back at the earlier versions of this manual of style, the earliest version (not the drafts, but once it actually became a guideline) appears to have changed very little from what we have today. I don't think there have yet been any changes which would then suddenly have caused the majority of pages to be out of compliance with the manual of style. For that matter, I wonder if there have ever been any changes made anywhere across Wikipedia policies or guidelines which have then required something like 100,000 pages to be altered. Policy pages like WP:NOT and Wikipedia:Reliable sources have changed radically since they were first written, but in neither case I don't believe was it ever a matter of, "Ok, now all our articles need to be different to match this new addition to this policy".
- I think any change to the manual of style which would then make the majority of our disambiguation pages out of compliance with the new guidelines should only be done if it is widely agreed that the new way of doing things would be clearly and substantially better, better enough that it would be worth introducing widespread inconsistency, as a large percentage of disambiguation pages would not likely follow the new guidelines for many years to come. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 09:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
In subject:
The "longer lists" example currently uses headings of the form "In subject:"
Thingamajig may refer to:
In science:
- Thingamajig (chemistry), an isotope of chlorine
- Thingamajig (physics), a kind of pulsar
- Thingamajig (biology), an invasive plant used as ground cover
In world music:
- Thingamajig (Qatar), a seven-stringed musical instrument
- Thingamajig (Peru), a wind instrument similar to an aulos
- thingamajig (UK), a wind instrument, similar to but longer than, the Peruvian instrument
Is this a suggested format or a required format? On several pages I have tidied, I have preferred a bare "subject" to the "in subject" format; depending on the subjects in question, I have considered it to read better. For me, "In X" only works if X is an abstract noun denoting a field of study: "in geography" works, "in cities" doesn't. In many cases, other users have "corrected" my text to the "in subject" format. If this is a fixed standard, it should be explicitly stated to be such; if not, then perhaps another example using a different format should be added to prove it is not. jnestorius(talk) 10:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- IMO, this is at best at suggested format (and in many cases a very poor choice. I would welcome revising that section to indicate "In X" is not always the best choice for subheadings. It often results in ungrammatical formulations. I agree that in many cases, a bare subject subheading is preferable. I don't agree that "In X" only works if X is an abstract noun. It also works, perhaps best IMO, in lists of places names "In Country X". older ≠ wiser 12:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- It has always struck me as odd that when we move to the == format (for longer lists) we drop the "in" altogether. IMHO it should be made clear that it is optional and the "in" should only be inserted or removed if there is a specific case for so doing. Where possible, consistency within a page is desirable. Abtract (talk) 12:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Consistancy is nice, so perhaps we can strive to have pages all with categories that use in. The points above about it not making sense in some places are very true, though. "In Other" sounds rather odd, so I always just put "Other". A short change about that in the MoS wouldn't go awry, I don't think. -- Natalya 13:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- "In other uses:" works well too. I use the "In" format just because that's how the guidelines are written. If there's no consensus for that format, then yeah, it might be a good idea to do (or to use only the "non-In" form if there's consensus for that). -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, I like that. It sounds more elegant than just "other". (That was really just an aside, but thanks!) -- Natalya 13:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Any objections to including an "In other uses:" example in the body? Another editor asks for cleanup, I group the entries using "In other uses:", and he changes it to "In other usage:" without explanation. "Other uses" better matches the phrasing we use in {{tl:otheruses}} and IMO is better semantically -- "usage" has multiple meanings, and the one meant here is "use". ("Use" has multiple meanings too, so I'll lean more heavily on the consistent phrasing justification.) Plus it's one character shorter. :-) I wouldn't change it from "other usage" to "other use" on a page that didn't need other cleanup, though. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- No objections here! Sounds like a good idea. -- Natalya 14:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't understand this supposed dispute: what is the main difference between "In other uses" and "In other usage(s)"? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 04:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you do not see a difference, then why do you edit a dab page to change one to the other? If you do not see a difference, please stop changing one to the other. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- J, why are you trying so hard to avoid the question? IIRC we were supposed to have "In other usage" in practice. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm trying "so hard" to avoid repeating myself, since I already answered your question at 11:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC). I do not know where you got the "In other usage" idea, but it certainly isn't set in stone, and I happen to prefer "In other uses". If you're going to ask other people to clean up dab pages, you're going to have to let them clean them up. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- I can't quite pinpoint grammatically why, but if it were to be "in other usage", I think it would need to be "in other usages". At least, it sounds right that way. "In other uses" appeals more than "In other usages" just because it's shorter. But in reality, is there a particular reason to go either way, rather than just personal preference? -- Natalya 19:54, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ok, I think we need to strive for consistency. Can we agree on implementing "In other uses" in the MoS? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:20, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- J, why are you trying so hard to avoid the question? IIRC we were supposed to have "In other usage" in practice. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:46, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you do not see a difference, then why do you edit a dab page to change one to the other? If you do not see a difference, please stop changing one to the other. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't understand this supposed dispute: what is the main difference between "In other uses" and "In other usage(s)"? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 04:32, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- No objections here! Sounds like a good idea. -- Natalya 14:41, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- Any objections to including an "In other uses:" example in the body? Another editor asks for cleanup, I group the entries using "In other uses:", and he changes it to "In other usage:" without explanation. "Other uses" better matches the phrasing we use in {{tl:otheruses}} and IMO is better semantically -- "usage" has multiple meanings, and the one meant here is "use". ("Use" has multiple meanings too, so I'll lean more heavily on the consistent phrasing justification.) Plus it's one character shorter. :-) I wouldn't change it from "other usage" to "other use" on a page that didn't need other cleanup, though. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, I like that. It sounds more elegant than just "other". (That was really just an aside, but thanks!) -- Natalya 13:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- "In other uses:" works well too. I use the "In" format just because that's how the guidelines are written. If there's no consensus for that format, then yeah, it might be a good idea to do (or to use only the "non-In" form if there's consensus for that). -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- Consistancy is nice, so perhaps we can strive to have pages all with categories that use in. The points above about it not making sense in some places are very true, though. "In Other" sounds rather odd, so I always just put "Other". A short change about that in the MoS wouldn't go awry, I don't think. -- Natalya 13:46, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
reset indent> Are we trying to decide 1) whether or not to use "In" as a general prefix or 2) what the heading for "other" things. For 2, I actually prefer a plan otherwise.— Preceding unsigned comment added by jwy (talk • contribs) 18:48, July 9, 2008
- I believe we are trying to decide your No. 2, the heading for "other" things. The discussion had been around "In other uses" versus "In other usage". Would your suggestion of "Otherwise" be without an in? I at one point had just been using "Other", but the appeal of consistancy with all headers being "In 'something' " is definitly present. -- Natalya 19:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it necessarily needs to be consistent. If it is added to the guideline, I'd prefer "In other uses:" for the reasons given above. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- Okay... it looks like we're reading some agreement on "In other uses". Any final disagreements? -- Natalya 22:02, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think there'll be any disagreeing. Should we give it a few days before making the change? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:09, 10 July 2008 (UTC)
- Okay... it looks like we're reading some agreement on "In other uses". Any final disagreements? -- Natalya 22:02, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it necessarily needs to be consistent. If it is added to the guideline, I'd prefer "In other uses:" for the reasons given above. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:52, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
"Trivial" categories on disambiguation pages
I know there has been talk about this before, but what should be done to the category listed as an entry on Time (disambiguation) and the Dragon Ball-related reference at Kamehameha? MoS:DAB#Categories doesn't specify on how to deal with such situations. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure it's harmful to link to the Time category on that dab page. What's your own thinking on this? The Dragon Ball-related reference on the Kamehameha page is definitely useful; as long as it's not reformatted as a redlink to an article on that sense of Kamehameha, it should stay, IMO. --Tkynerd (talk) 17:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, the one at the Time dab seems a bit strange to me. Can't quite put my finger on it. The Kamehameha one has been discussed, however, User:JHunterJ there felt that there shouldn't be a category. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- On further reflection, I agree that the Time category link doesn't belong on that page. It doesn't really serve as a good dab target because it could never be what someone is looking for if they try to go to a Time article, or if they wikilink to just Time. Having said that, I disagree with JHunterJ's blanket statement in that discussion ("Categories are not dab targets"). It seems to me that the Kamehameha instance is an excellent example of a situation where a category makes a perfect dab target. The category explicates the concept almost as well as an article could, and (a question I don't feel qualified to address) is the Dragon Ball sense of the word notable enough to warrant its own article? If not, then the category is clearly the right dab target. --Tkynerd (talk) 22:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Kamehameha (Dragon Ball) has been deleted on several occasions so a category was considered. I will take off the Category:Time per this discussion. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- While I did quote the blanket statement, it is not "mine". Both WP:D and WP:MOSDAB agree that disambiguation pages disambiguate Wikipedia articles, and categories are not articles. So Categories are not dab targets. I suggested
- Kamehameha, the signature move of the Dragon Ball character Son Goku
- I picked Son Goku because it's more "his" move than any other DZ character's, according to signature move. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm. A strict interpretation of the guidance at WP:D would result in removing the Dragon Ball-related entry from Kamehameha altogether, since it is not disambiguating a Wikipedia article (Son Goku (Dragon Ball) is not ambiguous). I realize that that's not the accepted practice, but I think it indicates that WP:D may need some revision to handle cases like this. In any case, I tend to favor direct dab targets (the kind where it's immediately obvious to the reader how the target relates to the ambiguous term, as soon as the link is visited if not sooner), and Son Goku (Dragon Ball)#Abilities fails that criterion rather miserably. Even though your proposed dab page text explains the relationship, the fact remains that the reader must read a way down into the linked paragraph before finding the Kamehameha reference. Not good. The only thing I would change about the category link is that it probably should not be piped; the reader should know that the target is a category page. --Tkynerd (talk) 15:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see the interpretation of the guidelines that would remove an entry covering "kamehameha" with a blue link in the description. What part of WP:D needs to be revised to avoid that interpretation? If the reader were looking for the Dragon Ball ability, then he would have found the right page and would be all set to read about it, good. The link to the category suffers because the reader clicks through and does not land on an article, but has to click through yet again, not good. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts in article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic, making that term likely to be the natural title for more than one article. In other words, disambiguations are paths leading to different article pages which could, in principle, have the same title. Son Goku (Dragon Ball)#Abilities is not a "path[] leading to [one of a number of] different article pages which could, in principle, have the same title." So a strict (I did use that word) interpretation of the guidance would prohibit that link. A strict interpretation of WP:D would mean that no links on a dab page could go to any article that didn't have the name being disambiguated (or some form of it). I'm not saying that a strict interpretation is the right one to follow, but then I'm the one who thinks categories can, in some cases, make perfectly valid dab targets. :) --Tkynerd (talk) 20:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- I still don't see the interpretive problem. "Kamehameha" is the "path... leading to [one of a number of] different articles pages which could, in principle, have the same title". In this case, the article Kamehameha (Son Goku ability) doesn't exist, but the article page which covers it does, on Son Goku (Dragon Ball), and both WP:D and WP:MOSDAB go on to explain how to write up entries for such articles. So the context is important. But categories still aren't dab targets. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's your interpretation of WP:D, and I find it rather peculiar that you choose to emphasize the word "article" so strongly (to exclude categories) while ignoring the rest of the sentence. What I wrote above stands: Son Goku (Dragon Ball)#Abilities simply does not meet the criteria set forth in WP:D. "Kamehameha" is not a "path" in any meaningful sense on Wikipedia; it is simply a concept (that requires disambiguation). The article links on a dab page are the "paths" referred to, but Son Goku (Dragon Ball)#Abilities is not one of those, both because it could not reasonably have any other name, and because it could not have the name Kamehameha. The point is that if we want to permit links to articles whose titles aren't examples of the dab term, while prohibiting links to categories, that needs to be spelled out. As it is, it's not clear that that's what is meant. --Tkynerd (talk) 23:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- The sentence is clear enough. The topic is the ability of Son Goku. The article that gives best coverage of this topic is Son Goku (Dragon Ball). Taemyr (talk) 04:52, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- Tkynerd, "article" is my interpretation of WP:D's use of "article", which is not peculiar at all -- it's why things like external links, unlinked dictionary definitions, and yes categories are not valid entries. Reading "article" as "articles and anything else some editors would like to treat as article-like" is a can of worms best left sealed. "Kamehameha" is the start of the "path" meaningfully used on WP:D -- a page title that could lead to different articles, which is why it's a concept requiring disambiguation. The article links on the dab page are not the "paths" referred to; the "path" referred to is the disambiguation process, starting with the ambiguous title, going through the disambiguation page layout, and ending at the desired article. Spelling out "article" while not spelling out "category" seems clear to me. How would you suggest it be made clearer? -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:37, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's your interpretation of WP:D, and I find it rather peculiar that you choose to emphasize the word "article" so strongly (to exclude categories) while ignoring the rest of the sentence. What I wrote above stands: Son Goku (Dragon Ball)#Abilities simply does not meet the criteria set forth in WP:D. "Kamehameha" is not a "path" in any meaningful sense on Wikipedia; it is simply a concept (that requires disambiguation). The article links on a dab page are the "paths" referred to, but Son Goku (Dragon Ball)#Abilities is not one of those, both because it could not reasonably have any other name, and because it could not have the name Kamehameha. The point is that if we want to permit links to articles whose titles aren't examples of the dab term, while prohibiting links to categories, that needs to be spelled out. As it is, it's not clear that that's what is meant. --Tkynerd (talk) 23:57, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- I still don't see the interpretive problem. "Kamehameha" is the "path... leading to [one of a number of] different articles pages which could, in principle, have the same title". In this case, the article Kamehameha (Son Goku ability) doesn't exist, but the article page which covers it does, on Son Goku (Dragon Ball), and both WP:D and WP:MOSDAB go on to explain how to write up entries for such articles. So the context is important. But categories still aren't dab targets. -- JHunterJ (talk) 20:47, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts in article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic, making that term likely to be the natural title for more than one article. In other words, disambiguations are paths leading to different article pages which could, in principle, have the same title. Son Goku (Dragon Ball)#Abilities is not a "path[] leading to [one of a number of] different article pages which could, in principle, have the same title." So a strict (I did use that word) interpretation of the guidance would prohibit that link. A strict interpretation of WP:D would mean that no links on a dab page could go to any article that didn't have the name being disambiguated (or some form of it). I'm not saying that a strict interpretation is the right one to follow, but then I'm the one who thinks categories can, in some cases, make perfectly valid dab targets. :) --Tkynerd (talk) 20:21, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see the interpretation of the guidelines that would remove an entry covering "kamehameha" with a blue link in the description. What part of WP:D needs to be revised to avoid that interpretation? If the reader were looking for the Dragon Ball ability, then he would have found the right page and would be all set to read about it, good. The link to the category suffers because the reader clicks through and does not land on an article, but has to click through yet again, not good. -- JHunterJ (talk) 17:04, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hmm. A strict interpretation of the guidance at WP:D would result in removing the Dragon Ball-related entry from Kamehameha altogether, since it is not disambiguating a Wikipedia article (Son Goku (Dragon Ball) is not ambiguous). I realize that that's not the accepted practice, but I think it indicates that WP:D may need some revision to handle cases like this. In any case, I tend to favor direct dab targets (the kind where it's immediately obvious to the reader how the target relates to the ambiguous term, as soon as the link is visited if not sooner), and Son Goku (Dragon Ball)#Abilities fails that criterion rather miserably. Even though your proposed dab page text explains the relationship, the fact remains that the reader must read a way down into the linked paragraph before finding the Kamehameha reference. Not good. The only thing I would change about the category link is that it probably should not be piped; the reader should know that the target is a category page. --Tkynerd (talk) 15:26, 24 May 2008 (UTC)
- While I did quote the blanket statement, it is not "mine". Both WP:D and WP:MOSDAB agree that disambiguation pages disambiguate Wikipedia articles, and categories are not articles. So Categories are not dab targets. I suggested
- Kamehameha (Dragon Ball) has been deleted on several occasions so a category was considered. I will take off the Category:Time per this discussion. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)
- On further reflection, I agree that the Time category link doesn't belong on that page. It doesn't really serve as a good dab target because it could never be what someone is looking for if they try to go to a Time article, or if they wikilink to just Time. Having said that, I disagree with JHunterJ's blanket statement in that discussion ("Categories are not dab targets"). It seems to me that the Kamehameha instance is an excellent example of a situation where a category makes a perfect dab target. The category explicates the concept almost as well as an article could, and (a question I don't feel qualified to address) is the Dragon Ball sense of the word notable enough to warrant its own article? If not, then the category is clearly the right dab target. --Tkynerd (talk) 22:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, the one at the Time dab seems a bit strange to me. Can't quite put my finger on it. The Kamehameha one has been discussed, however, User:JHunterJ there felt that there shouldn't be a category. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 17:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) Sorry, no. For your reference, here is the text again: In other words, disambiguations are paths leading to different article pages which could, in principle, have the same title. It escapes me why you want to emphasize "article" at the expense of the rest of the last phrase. Arguing over exactly what "paths" means isn't really relevant, because "leading to different article pages which could, in principle, have the same title" is unambiguous: it means that the targets on a dab page must lead to article pages that could, in principle, be titled with the term being disambiguated. Since Son Goku (Dragon Ball)#Abilities could not, in principle, have any other title, it isn't an appropriate dab target if we follow WP:D.
How could this text be clarified? Easily: In other words, disambiguations are paths leading to different article pages which could, in principle, have the same title, or to other article pages that explicate the concept being disambiguated. That permits the kind of link we're discussing here, while retaining the "article" stricture. If desired, that stricture could also be made explicit. --Tkynerd (talk) 15:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
- I do not read "disambiguations" as "entries on disambiguation pages" there, but I don't know why you're arguing over what "paths" means if you find it irrelevant. You are right, taking the introductory summary on its own could lead to the non-consensus interpretation. I'd hesitate on bulking the intro up too much, though. Perhaps something along the lines of "In other words, disambiguations are paths leading to different articles that the reader could have been seeking when looking up the title." Changes to the text on WP:D should be discussed on WT:D, though. I'll remake this comment there. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Clarification needed
I keep running into legalistically minded people citing this page in order to disrupt an intelligent presentation of disambiguation of related meanings of a term. E.g. at Energy (disambiguation). This guideline may need some clarification to allow for that. People would also do well to obsess less over technicalities (like insisting on an unbolded "In") and remember the link to WP:UCS from the top of every guideline page. dab (𒁳) 14:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- And you would do well to stop disrupting the disambiguation page to try and include an unneeded "intelligent presentation" of your view of the primary topic. If you feel that the topic at Energy is not the primary topic for "Energy", take it up at Talk:Energy. The dab page isn't the place to try and change that meaning. The guidelines do not need any clarifications to allow for things other than navigation. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:02, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
The guidelines here at this Manual of Style have been developed in order to make the navigation of disambiguation pages as easy as possible. As these are the guidelines to be used, unless there is a valid reason to ignore the rules (which does happen), the guidelines should be followed. If you feel like some of the guidelines aren't making the navigation of disambiguation pages easier, then by all means, please bring up suggestions you have here, so that all of those involved in disambiguating can offer their input and we can possibly improve disambiguation pages. If you think there is a good reason not to follow the guidelines, it's usually a good plan to discuss why.
As an aside, is there anything wrong with unbolding "In"? If one editor puts it in bold, not knowing that, for ease of navigation, it should be unbolded, does it do any harm for another editor who knows this to unbold it? If, on the other hand, you think that having the "In" in bold helps with navigation, then, please bring it up for discussion. We are always open to ways to improve disambiguation pages. -- Natalya 16:26, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
- I see no reason to ignore all rules. Similar arguments have once been brought up at Talk:Entropy (disambiguation). Result was to use MoS:DP conventions. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 16:33, 26 May 2008 (UTC)
Please archive this page
It's too big.--Xyzzyplugh (talk) 07:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- MiszaBot II archives Wikipedia talk:Disambiguation - do we want to see if we can get it to archive here too? -- Natalya 17:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- Would be a good idea. Meanwhile, I'm dumping the first half of this page into archive 35, and changing the dates listed on it. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 16:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Reasonable place to break the rules?
The following articles all have the same format: Schedule I, Schedule II, Schedule III, Schedule IV, Schedule V, Schedule VI, Schedule VII, Schedule VIII. In this situation, having the link on the right seems to make the page easier to follow, as the country name on the left is perhaps what the reader would be looking for. Thoughts? --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 07:31, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
- Wouldn't it be more helpful to redirect all 8 pages to one central list/table which would then not be governed by mos:dab? It might be called something like List of schedules for drugs and poisons and could then link to pages like Standard for the Uniform Scheduling of Drugs and Poisons. This might be better than going against guidelines. Abtract (talk) 10:11, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
Improper name
I don't think Indian (Americas) is a suitable name for a disambiguation page. Then again, I could be wrong though. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 05:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- This isn't an answer, but I've reverted it to the original version, as someone replaced all uses of "Indian" with "First Nation", which caused the page to not even fit with its title. --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 05:56, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- It strikes me as a poor name, too, but there is a bit of reason since there is a page named Indian (Asian) and both are linked from Indian (disambiguation). I think it would probably be better to put them all on the main dab page (Indian), since there aren't an overwhelming number of entries and there appears to be some confusing overlap between the pages. I only have time to throw out my opinion, not to lend a hand...sorry. SlackerMom (talk) 12:52, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- This was discussed here, where the consensus appeared to be that both Indian (Americas) and Indian (Asian) are unnecessary content forks and should both redirect to Indian. I had suggested doing that at the conclusion of the discussion with no opposition, but then forgot about it. I'll do so now. older ≠ wiser 12:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
categories
I see that the guideline currently says:
Categories aid navigation between articles. Disambiguation pages however are non-articles and do not require categorization other than for maintenance purposes, and they already get auto-categorized by using {{disambig}}, {{hndis}} and {{geodis}}. No other categories should be added, except Category:Surnames, Category:Given names or their subcategories (if the disambiguation page includes sections of name information or lists of people), or disambiguation subcategories that might apply.
However, if all entries on a disambiguation page are related, then might it be appropriate to put the page into a category? 69.140.152.55 (talk) 22:47, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps, but if they are all related, maybe the related topic deserves a page with a bunch of links out and/or see also - which would not be a dab page. (John User:Jwy talk) 01:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Template to caution against frequent mistakes
Please see, and voice support or objections for, a proposed dab-style warning-template, to appear (in edit-mode only) at the tops of all disambig pages, at:
Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Disambiguation/Archive_10#Template_to_caution_against_frequent_mistakes.
Thank you :) -- Quiddity (talk) 02:51, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Including ISO/IATA/ICAO codes, chemical element symbols, etc.. on dab pages
In my opinion, such codes and abbreviations have no place on dab pages and go against MOS:DAB, yet I can find no guidelines or discussions on Wikipedia that deal with this specific issue.
To quote the opening paragraph of WP:DAB:
- Disambiguation in Wikipedia is the process of resolving conflicts in article titles that occur when a single term can be associated with more than one topic, making that term likely to be the natural title for more than one article. In other words, disambiguations are paths leading to different article pages which could, in principle, have the same title.
Therefore, in my opinion, a dab page such as Au should not include entries such as a link to Gold just because "Au" happens to be it's chemical symbol, nor should it include a link to Austral Lineas Aereas simply because "AU" happens to be it's IATA code. If someone comes to Wikipedia and wants to know to which airline IATA code "AU" belongs, they should search for an article specifically about IATA codes or perhaps consult a list such as List of acronyms and initialisms.
Am I correct in my logic or am I just being anal? I'm interested in any and all comments regarding this issue.
Thanks in advance, Marchije (talk) 04:16, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
- I think your argument makes sense, but I also think that it is very possible to take a different approach. The opening paragraph of this page uses a slightly different description: "Disambiguation pages are solely intended to allow users to choose among several Wikipedia articles, usually when a user searches for an ambiguous term." I think that the question we should ask is: Is it likely that a user will search for a IATA code looking for an airline? The answer is yes (I have done it myself when I've only had a code without knowing the name of the airline). So if we want to make the user experience as smooth as possible I think we should include terms that users are likely to search for (including IATA codes). Cheers/ Pax:Vobiscum (talk) 07:42, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
- I definitly see the rational, but I worry that not everyone may be as logical/knowledgeable as you and I! Someone may know the code of an airport, but may not know that that code is an IATA Code (or even know what an IATA code is). Having those codes (and element symbols, etc.), hopefully allows people who are not as knowledgeable about the topic still find what they're looking for. Granted, we don't want every article and it's mother to end up on disambiguation pages, but I don't think it's too overwhelming. -- Natalya 11:25, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
- I don' think that the paragraph needs changing. To quote WP:DAB even further:
- Ask yourself: When readers enter a given term in the Wikipedia search box and pushes "Go", what article would they most likely be expecting to view as a result?
- and
- A disambiguation page has links to a heterogeneous set of concepts. It is purely for navigation, not information.
- So to reiterate: A person who enters "XYZ" in the Wikipedia search box and pushes "Go" should expect to find either an article titled "XYZ" or and article about a topic which is sometimes known as "XYZ." Therefore, if someone performs a search on IATA code XYZ looking for a disambiguation page which will give them information on the name of its airline, they misunderstand the function of disambiguation. Marchije (talk) 08:53, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- Marchije, would you be able to clarify your statment a little more? I'm having a little bit of a hard time understanding the part about giving them information on the name of their airline; isn't that the point of an encyclopedia? Lets say we have two people both curious about the airline Austral Lineas Aereas. One knows the actual name of the airline, and types it in to the search box, and gets to the right article. The other only knows the IATA code, and thus types "AU" into the search box. Don't we want them to be able to get to the page they're looking for too? Thanks for any clarification you can provide - I'd really like to fully understand your viewpoint. -- Natalya 11:43, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
- Just to note that the Airline project guidelines say The IATA and ICAO codes should be checked to see that they are redirects to the airline or that a DAB page exists that includes the airline. Although I have to agree with User:Natalya I cant see their inclusion as a problem and they can be useful to readers to find the related airline from just the code. MilborneOne (talk) 19:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Hi Natalya,
To address your point: While it is possible that someone looking for an article about a particular airline might try to do so by searching its IATA code, it is much more likely that they would do so by using the airline's actual name. Even if someone did try the IATA code first and did not actually wind-up finding the article about said airline, most people wouldn't just throw their hands-up and say: "I give up! If I can't find an article using the IATA code, then I guess there's no article about this airline on Wikipedia. Oh well..." On the contrary, most people would try another search by using the airline's actual name, or (if they didn't know the name) by searching "IATA codes" or "Airline codes".
Having said that, I actually suspect that the above scenario is rare and that most people who search an IATA code using the Wikipedia search field are simply doing so to find out to which airline it belongs. They are in effect saying to themselves: "I wonder which airline XYZ is? I know; I'll search 'XYZ' in Wikipedia." After doing so, they reach a dab page for XYZ, they see it belongs to airline Xeno-Yellow-Zippo Air and that's that. So in effect, they have entered their 2 or 3-letter combo and found a dab page which gave them information as to what that IATA code stood for; they weren't actually interested in an article about Xeno-Yellow-Zippo Air...
Again, dab pages are not meant to give people info on every little thing that XYZ could possibly stand for. Should we really be adding IATA codes and the like to dab pages simply because some people might search a topic using these codes rather than the actual full title of the airline or airport? By that same logic, shouldn't we be listing every Wikipedia article about a city by their postal code, and every article about a private company by their stock indices on all of the worlds major exchanges, etc..., just because someone might decide to use that ambiguous set of letters or numbers to search for an article?
If someone is asking themselves "what does XYZ stand for?" they should be going to a page such as List of acronyms and initialisms: X#XY. If they want to know "which airline is represented by XYZ?" they should be consulting List of airports by IATA code or List of airports by ICAO code which are easily found by searching "IATA code", "ICAO code", "airport code", "airline code", etc...
Yes, it would be more convenient to simply type "XYZ" in the search field and land on a dab page that says "XYZ may stand for Xeno Yellow Zippo Air," rather than having to land on 2 or 3 pages before finding what one is looking for, but is that really such a bad thing? If we continue to list every possible symbol and code that a combination of letters could represent, then we risk turning these dab pages into long lists of acronyms and initialisms.
Hope that makes sense. Thanks for asking for clarification... (By the way, MilborneOne, I'm not ignoring your comment, you just happened to save yours before I could save mine; you've made a good point though... I think I'm just going to have to accept that I'm outnumbered on this one!) 8-) Marchije (talk) 19:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Marchije, sorry for the late reply - I only just saw your response here. Thank you for the explanation; I understand much better now. Although I still feel that it is helpful to have the IATA codes on the disambiguation pages, I am glad to understand where you are coming from. Thanks! -- Natalya 01:39, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- If the airport page lists its IATA or other code, that is sufficient to include it on the disambiguation page that covers the permutation of letters in disambiguation title. The reader should be able to enter the IATA code, reach the disambiguation page either directly or through a hatnote on the primary topic article, and then get to the sought airport article. Yes, making that sequence less convenient for the reader is really such a bad thing. We do not list every possible combination of letters (for example, no John Kerry on JFK (disambiguation) even though those are his initials). The "risk" of long disambiguation pages is balanced out sufficiently by the "reward" of serving the reader. -- JHunterJ (talk) 15:08, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- Agreed. I'll often enter an acronym, to find out what it means. It's also a lot easier to type out SFO than San Francisco International Airport.
- Specifically, see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (abbreviations) which says "However, in many cases no decision is necessary because a given acronym has several expansions, none of which is the most prominent. Under such circumstances the articles should be at the spelled-out phrases and the acronym should be a disambiguation article providing descriptive links to all of them."
- -- Quiddity (talk) 19:23, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Why are there two pages with the same primary topic? I recollect much debate over which name should be used but surely duplication was not the answer. All that is needed imho is one page (which one is immaterial) with a redirect from the other one. mos:dab#Introductory line makes it pretty clear that minor spelling variations should be ignored and they don't come more minor than counting as the primary topic twice. I imagine this was done to placate the editor(s) who felt strongly about the "correct" spelling but it would surely be more user friendly to have all these entries on one page so that readers who may have mispelled will immediately get the guidance they need, rather than having to find the "see also" section and go to another dab page. If placation is the order of the day, there is no reason (apart from inelegance) that the page should not be called Baykal and Baikal (disambiguation). Abtract (talk) 08:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'd just merge Baikal (disambiguation) into Baykal (disambiguation) and not rename anything (the latter already has three interwikis, the other one none). That's what surname variations do all the time when they are too similar. – sgeureka t•c 08:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Good idea but I will leave it for a few days in case there are counter opinions to be considered. Abtract (talk) 09:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'd like to add that the choice of spelling for the unified dab page is not "immaterial". The spelling has to be "Baykal" as per WP:RUS. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I guess this is debatable since Lake Baikal choses the other spelling. If we put our wp hats on, then surely it is immaterial? Even I find it difficult to get excited about spelling when the word was originally in a different script. Abtract (talk) 17:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- "Lake Baikal" uses a different spelling because this spelling is conventional in English, and conventional usage always supercedes romanization. Conventionality issues are covered by WP:RUS as well, so there really isn't anything to debate about there. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 18:16, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I guess this is debatable since Lake Baikal choses the other spelling. If we put our wp hats on, then surely it is immaterial? Even I find it difficult to get excited about spelling when the word was originally in a different script. Abtract (talk) 17:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'd like to add that the choice of spelling for the unified dab page is not "immaterial". The spelling has to be "Baykal" as per WP:RUS. Cheers,—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Good idea but I will leave it for a few days in case there are counter opinions to be considered. Abtract (talk) 09:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Heh, I actually just split the pages off yesterday, I think it was. Before, all of the entries were at Baykal (disambiguation), but the page was sort of crowded, and there were a lot of different entries for each spelling. Unless it really is only a spelling variation (and if we were to translate it back into the original language and they would all be spelled the same way), since they are two different terms, it seems like they should each have their own disambiguation page. Both "Baikal" and "Baykal" redirected to Lake Baikal, so that's why I modified the hatnote there as such. I feel like it's clearer to have two separate disambiguation pages, but if there's a reason not to, I'm flexible. -- Natalya 11:34, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- The Russian and Belarussian seem to be identical except for an accent over the penultimate character (I'm guessing just the sort of difference you would expect from closely related languages). A quick glance at Talk:Lake Baikal#Dalai nuur indicates to me that Baykal and Baikal are simply different anglicisations possibly in line with which dialect was being translated or indeed who was translating. Perhaps the killer is Baykal, Irkutsk Oblast which states that Baykal is "located near Lake Baikal" which indicates to me that we are dealing with one word not two. My view is still that we need but one dab page. Abtract (talk) 12:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, I only saw this thread after marking both pages for merger and dropping Natalya a note. The main reason why both pages should be merged, just as Abtract pointed out above, is because both "Baykal" and "Baikal" are valid romanizations of the same Russian word "Байкал". In Wikipedia, the two spellings are applied to different concepts due to our guidelines on common English usage and romanization (the lake, for example, has an established English name—"Baikal"—but the settlement located on that lake does not, so its name is romanized resulting in a different spelling, even though it is identical in Russian—quite a few English-language atlases do the same, by the way). In real world, where multiple ways of romanization of Russian exist, it is not uncommon to see these spellings to be used interchangeably, hence the reason why they were combined on one disambiguation page. Please merge these to dabs back into one. Thank you.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Like Ezhiki, I have just been aware of this discussion. Here are my thoughts: Natalya pretty much suggested that Baykal (disambiguation) was getting too bloated for its own good, and I concurred. That's why we split the pages. Can't say WP:DAB#NAME applies here, as we do have Rouge and Rogue separated. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 15:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Unless I am missing something, even though the words "Rouge" and "Rogue" are very similar, none of the entries listed on "Rouge" is routinely referred to as "Rogue" and vice versa. This is not at all the case with "Ba[i/y]kal". Take the lake itself, for example. Depending on which atlas you look at, you can see this lake marked as "Baikal", "Baykal", or "Bajkal". All are valid romanizations; all are interchangeable. Same goes for the majority of the remaining entries. We do standardize on one system, but our readers may be trying to locate the article they need based on a source that uses a different system, and arbitrarily splitting the dab pages based on our practices is simply a disservice to those readers.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- It's the spelling you're missing, I'm sure. I don't think entries with "Baikal" should be at Baykal (disambiguation). If anything they can be listed at the "See also" section, but that's just another option. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 16:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I am sorry, Sess, but you are not correct in thinking that entries currently spelled "Baikal" do not belong on "Baykal" (this is even regardless of whether they show up as entries or in the "see also" section). I don't know why are are so unwilling to believe the people who know the subject, but in case you need solid proof, here is some. "Baikal Cossacks" are sometimes referred to as "Baykal Cossacks" in English ([2]). Same goes for "Baikal Amur Mainline" (Baykal Amur Mainline), "Baikal grayling" (Baykal grayling), and, with more intense research, for every other entry, save, obviously, the names of non-Russian people. What else do I need to present in order to convince you?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Let's break it down: what items only have "Baikal" as part of the term and not the romanized "Baykal"? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 16:49, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I am sorry, Sess, but you are not correct in thinking that entries currently spelled "Baikal" do not belong on "Baykal" (this is even regardless of whether they show up as entries or in the "see also" section). I don't know why are are so unwilling to believe the people who know the subject, but in case you need solid proof, here is some. "Baikal Cossacks" are sometimes referred to as "Baykal Cossacks" in English ([2]). Same goes for "Baikal Amur Mainline" (Baykal Amur Mainline), "Baikal grayling" (Baykal grayling), and, with more intense research, for every other entry, save, obviously, the names of non-Russian people. What else do I need to present in order to convince you?—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:37, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- It's the spelling you're missing, I'm sure. I don't think entries with "Baikal" should be at Baykal (disambiguation). If anything they can be listed at the "See also" section, but that's just another option. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 16:17, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Unless I am missing something, even though the words "Rouge" and "Rogue" are very similar, none of the entries listed on "Rouge" is routinely referred to as "Rogue" and vice versa. This is not at all the case with "Ba[i/y]kal". Take the lake itself, for example. Depending on which atlas you look at, you can see this lake marked as "Baikal", "Baykal", or "Bajkal". All are valid romanizations; all are interchangeable. Same goes for the majority of the remaining entries. We do standardize on one system, but our readers may be trying to locate the article they need based on a source that uses a different system, and arbitrarily splitting the dab pages based on our practices is simply a disservice to those readers.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 16:10, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Like Ezhiki, I have just been aware of this discussion. Here are my thoughts: Natalya pretty much suggested that Baykal (disambiguation) was getting too bloated for its own good, and I concurred. That's why we split the pages. Can't say WP:DAB#NAME applies here, as we do have Rouge and Rogue separated. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 15:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, I only saw this thread after marking both pages for merger and dropping Natalya a note. The main reason why both pages should be merged, just as Abtract pointed out above, is because both "Baykal" and "Baikal" are valid romanizations of the same Russian word "Байкал". In Wikipedia, the two spellings are applied to different concepts due to our guidelines on common English usage and romanization (the lake, for example, has an established English name—"Baikal"—but the settlement located on that lake does not, so its name is romanized resulting in a different spelling, even though it is identical in Russian—quite a few English-language atlases do the same, by the way). In real world, where multiple ways of romanization of Russian exist, it is not uncommon to see these spellings to be used interchangeably, hence the reason why they were combined on one disambiguation page. Please merge these to dabs back into one. Thank you.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 15:03, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
So Natalya, what do you think having heard the arguments? It seems to me that the general opinion is to merge (probably as Baykal (disambiguation)). Abtract (talk) 20:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- I actually vote to separate the two because, while I understand that the differences in spelling are due to different anglicisations of the same Russian name, my question is: If the Ba(i/y)kal dab pages that we speak of are on the English version of Wikipedia, then why shouldn't we be separating them based on their English spelling?
- I guess I still don't really understand what the harm is in separating the two... Yes they may sometimes refer to the same thing (as in the lake in Russia) but it seems that in most cases the two spellings are not used interchangeably for the same objects/places (at least not in English); for example, when I looked at the pages for the Baikal MCM,the Baikal class motorship, and the Shuttle 2.01 (aka "Baikal"), none of these articles state that their topics are also known as the "Baykal". In kind, none of the articles with links on Baykal (disambiguation) mention that their topics are aka "Baikal." In addition, it's not like anyone will miss what they are looking for as long as both dab pages point to one-another under "See also."
- Perhaps we should look at how other non-English terms with varied English spellings are treated in Wikipedia. For example: Qi, Chi and Ch'i are 3 spellings that the English use to describe energy flow as per Chinese culture, yet you don't see Qi (disambiguation) and the Chi dab page merged together. Or how about Bombay and Mumbai? Bombay (disambiguation) doesn't list any articles such as Mumbai Harbour nor Mumbai FC...
- All-in-all, I think Lord Sesshomaru has the right idea - determine which entries are referred to by both spellings and which ones are not. If there are some entries that are NOT known by both spellings then the dab pages should remain separate and those entries which can be spelled both ways should appear on both pages, somewhat like Qi (disambiguation) and Chi. Marchije (talk) 20:43, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Surely a better question is "What harm can there be in combining them? The advantage of combining is that it helps readers who may be doubtful about the spelling. But I've said enough ... my vote is to combine, but it's hardly a life and death issue. Abtract (talk) 21:05, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Marchije, the reason why these two should not be split is because there is no one single hard and fast criterion according to which the entries on these two pages can be split. Since many systems of romanization of Russian exist, you never know which spelling our readers are going to use when they end up on Wikipedia's disambiguation page; there are quite a few valid variants. As you said, this is the English Wikipedia, which is why we use established English names when it is possible. However, for names which do not have an established English name, we have to use a romanization system, and, as I mentioned above, there is a multitude of them used in English. Please take a look at the links I provided above when responding to Sess; those illustrate what I mean quite well. With some research, I am sure I'll be able to find you similar links to other concepts you listed (the gun, the shuttle, etc.). The spellings are interchangeable; just because our articles don't explicitly state it does not mean otherwise (in fact, this is not mentioned precisely because this fact is so obvious to people who know the subject). This case is not similar to the Chi/Qi/Ch'i example, because in that case names of most entries are not routinely interchangeable, hence the need for separate dabs. The situation with Baykal/Baikal is in fact closer to the distinction between, say "USA" and "U.S.A.", which are combined on a single dab page, and I don't see anyone rushing to split those up.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 21:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
This certainly became a long discussion! Because it doesn't seem like we can separate out the two different romanizations in a clear fashion, and because they are both romanizations of the same Russian word, I think it does make sense to combine them back again. It would be nice to standardize the romanization, but it seems like that would take some work. Ezhiki, thank you for the information about the Russian! -- Natalya 21:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
- Folks, I think Marchije just hit the nail on the head. Thanks for seeing the point I was trying to make there ;) Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:30, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for all the comments. I will leave it to Natalya to put the two pages back together (with the "Baykal" spelling) ... unless you want me to do it? Abtract (talk) 01:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- They're back together (though I'm going to see if I can't organize Baykal (disambiguation) a bit more). There was some more disucssion about this at User_talk:Natalya#Baykal, in case anyone was interested. I modified the hatnote at Lake Baikal just slightly to make it clear that both things spelled "Baykal" and "Baikal" (regardless of the romanization) can be found at the disambiguation page. -- Natalya 00:55, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
- PS - just having read through Talk:Baykal (disambiguation), I never realized how much disagreement there was over the page in general! Thanks to everyone for being able to have a generally reasonable discussion about this. :) -- Natalya 01:02, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Punctuation at the end of entries
Am I correct in assuming that entries should never end in periods (or commas or semicolons), even when the entry contains multiple sentences? The MOS says, "Even when the entry forms a complete sentence, do not include commas or periods at the end of the line", is this true when there is more than one sentence? --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 21:23, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
- I always assumed (and this may not be an assumption, if it is mentioned in the guidelines elsewhere) that entries should never be more than one sentence. Let me see if I can find anything to back that up, though. -- Natalya 21:59, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
- (Post-searching) I think with the line "Entries should nearly always be sentence fragments." from the Manual of Style, I've always figured that if they should usually be sentence fragments, they definitly shouldn't be multiple sentences. I realized this sort of changes the topic at hand, but it does relate. -- Natalya 22:01, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
- Yup. Any information following the link needs to be the minimum required to differentiate (disambiguate) it from the other links. Anything else should generally be removed. "The description associated with a link should be kept to a minimum...".
- Are you talking about Ashoka Pillar (disambiguation)? (it always helps to give specific examples, when asking for feedback :) -- Quiddity (talk) 22:31, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'm actually thinking of the proposed idea discussed earlier, of a disambiguation cleanup bot. The bot would be removing the periods from the ends of entries. The question is, if the entry has more than one sentence, should the bot still remove the period from the final sentence? A bot cannot rewrite an entry to make it only one sentence. (And, given that there are 10 or 20 thousand disambiguation pages which have at least one entry which has multiple sentences, I don't really think we would want a bot adding disambig-cleanup to all of those) --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 09:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- And, bot or not, if an entry has multiple sentences, and until such time as the multiple sentences are shortened into one, would we rather the final sentence end in a period, or in no punctuation at all? --Xyzzyplugh (talk) 09:29, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
- It might be too much work, but I'd say, don't leave it as a multi-sentence description! Or, if the page is just in such disrepair that whoever sees it doesn't have the time to fix it then, tag it for cleanup; if it has that many problems, I don't know if worrying about the periods is necessary. -- Natalya 12:36, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Date formatting on dab pages
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)#Individual entries says "Never link days or dates." Does anyone know why would we not want to use date formatting on disambiguation pages? Accurizer (talk) 00:51, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- I would imagine it's because there should only be one blue link per entry on a disambiguation page, and that a date wouldn't be the most useful blue link to have. -- Natalya 01:36, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
I think there may be a better way to say this on the project page. I just noticed MOS:SYL says that the autoformatting mechanism does not work for links to date elements on disambiguation pages. What would you think about amending the language on this project page to say "Never link days or dates, the autoformatting mechanism does not work on disambiguation pages." I always think it is better to tell someone why they should not do a particular thing. Accurizer (talk) 10:28, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- That's not what it says. It says date links "must not be used" on disambig pages, not that autoformatting doesn't work on those pages. In other words, it's a style restriction, not a technical one. --Russ (talk) 11:15, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- You're right, I must have misread it the first time around. Accurizer (talk) 11:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- I foresee a problem with that idea ... if someone makes it work on dab pages, we then open the door to allowing datelinking and that will offer hope to those who want to put another bluelink on an entry ("well the date is linked so why can't I have my link to the name of the singer etc). It is pretty clear right now, only one bluelink per line and don't link dates. Abtract (talk) 11:02, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
- Is there an instance where a full date is needed on a dab page? I haven't seen one where a simple year wouldn't suffice to direct the reader to the sought article, and no date formatting is needed. -- JHunterJ (talk)
- The page that drew my attention to this is USS Mercer. Accurizer (talk) 11:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, that's a ship set index article, not a disambiguation page. They're covered by Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships/Guidelines, not Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages). If it were a disambiguation page, it would be deleted since there aren't multiple Wikipedia articles to be disambiguated. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- The page that drew my attention to this is USS Mercer. Accurizer (talk) 11:56, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks. Apparently they use the disambig icon and I didn't read the fine print after it, which clearly says it is a list of ships. Accurizer (talk) 16:17, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
- I proposed a change at Template talk:Shipindex to clarify this issue (if anyone else even agrees it's an issue). Accurizer (talk) 16:28, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
Red Links - request for comment
In tidying up the Clementine (disambiguation), I found lots of red links that weren't linked to from anywhere else, so I removed then. While checking for the unused redlinks, I found it a pain to keep on navigating to the article and then clicking the "what links here" button.
So I've created a template: {{Dabredlink}}. You just put the red link as the parameter and it gives you a "what links here" link after the red link: Template:Dabredlink. I thought it might be a way to keep track of red links on dab pages over time.
Having done all this, though, I'm now thinking maybe it was a bit of a useless exercise. Anyone got any suggestions as to how this might be useful or have I just wasted 10 minutes of my life? GDallimore (Talk) 21:27, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
- Cool. I could see using this on some red link entries where it's not clear which of several possible blue-link articles should be linked in the description. I would opt to use this instead of other blue links on the line, but might also see its use alongside one other blue link in the description. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:20, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Awesome archives (and alliteration!)
Just in case not everyone was aware, I wanted to plug the pretty fantastic index of archives of this talk page, located at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)/index of archives. It's taken all (well, most, I think) of the archives from the MoS talk page, and indexed them by category. I always forget, but was just recently reminded, that it seems to have links to discussions on almost every topic that comes up here. So if you're ever in doubt about something, remember that the index is a place where you may be able to find some helpful information! -- Natalya 02:16, 26 June 2008 (UTC)
Misspellings
Just something worth discussing: The MoS here clearly (and rightfully) discusses the inclusion of misspellings in disambigs, appropriately as redirects for words that are likely to be misspelled. But should a disambiguation consist solely of misspellings? See for page of reference Gogle. RShnike (talk) 00:05, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- At first glance, I'd recommend a sub-category of Disambiguation for it. Typo Disambiguations or Spelling Disambiguations. But the page definitely has navigational use, and I would keep it. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if a sub-category is necessary (since many pages have misspellings on them), but I think the page is okay. If we really feel like a semi-legitimate term needs to be added, we could probably get away with putting a link to Gogle-mogle on it. -- Natalya 11:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
- Usually, I put misspellings under a "See also" section. This page, however, is more of a "did you mean" decider, and does not disambiguate any article that was in danger of being titled "gogle". That's why I suggested a subcat; it's not quite a disambiguation page. But I won't cling to that position in the face of opposition. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
- Heh, I'm just one person! My opposition only counts for so much. :) -- Natalya 03:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
- What if we did away with this altogether and made it a redirect to Google (disambiguation) or Gogol (disambiguation)? Then we just make sure the misspellings are included on that page, either as regular entries or under "See also". SlackerMom (talk) 12:47, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
- Heh, I'm just one person! My opposition only counts for so much. :) -- Natalya 03:03, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
- Usually, I put misspellings under a "See also" section. This page, however, is more of a "did you mean" decider, and does not disambiguate any article that was in danger of being titled "gogle". That's why I suggested a subcat; it's not quite a disambiguation page. But I won't cling to that position in the face of opposition. -- JHunterJ (talk) 02:32, 2 July 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if a sub-category is necessary (since many pages have misspellings on them), but I think the page is okay. If we really feel like a semi-legitimate term needs to be added, we could probably get away with putting a link to Gogle-mogle on it. -- Natalya 11:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)
Piping example, and acronyms
I recently did a cleanup job (please ignore the Street Fighter junk, I should have taken it out) on Dash (disambiguation). Yesterday another user did their own "cleanup" job, making a lot of changes I disagree with, and we're discussing that on Talk:Dash (disambiguation) (you're free to weigh in if you like). My biggest problem with his revision is that he put "Dash" at the front of every single entry so that, for example, the entry "Sprint (race)" became "Dash, sprint (race)". He pointed to the example at MOS:DP#Piping to support putting "Dash" at the beginning; I responded to say that the example given is a totally different type of entry, and that my view is supported by MOS:DP#Linking to a primary topic, MOS:DP#Synonyms, MOS:DP#URL anchor notation, MOS:DP#Order of entries. However, it did make me look at the example at MOS:DP#Piping and I can't help thinking that I would have formatted that entry differently. Here's the example:
Rock or rocks may refer to:
- Rock, the name of [[Mega Man (character)|Mega Man]] in the Japanese versions of the games
If I were working on the Rock dab page, I would view Mega Man as a synonym for "Rock" and just link directly to Mega Man (character), perhaps adding "called Rock in Japanese versions of the games" or something. Does anyone else agree? Could we not find a clearer example to use for this case?
I also disagree with this user on whether uses of the term as an acronym should be separated into their own section (instead of dividing entries by subject area), as I know some people like to do but I don't see the point of. A user may not know whether the term IS an acronym or not. But it does make me wonder why acronyms don't seem to be addressed at all either way in the MOS; the only guidance I found that relates to this question at all is in MOS:DP#Longer lists, which states "The list may be broken up by subject area" (emphasis mine). I do think perhaps a line should be added about whether acronyms should be broken out or not, as I do come across it fairly often but always change it since the MOS doesn't suggest otherwise. Propaniac (talk) 13:38, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, [[Mega Man (character)]] or Rock, a character in the Japanese versions of ''Mega Man'' would be how I'd write it. A better example would be good. No, IMO acronyms do not need to be separated from non-acronym entries, for the reason you state. -- JHunterJ (talk) 19:57, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
- One could even write it as "The name of [[Mega Man (character)|Mega Man]] in the Japanese versions of the games", just taking out the "Rock" bit. I think it's sort of redundant to keep putting it in. Without the mention of "Rock" in there a second time, the train of thought goes "Rock may refer to the name of...", which makes complete sense. In that same line, for all things that an acronym may stand for, I don't think that we need to list the acronym, and then the link, as is currently done at Dash (disambiguation).
- One advantage to sectioning those articles that are acronyms is that it is sort of clear that the reason those articles are on the page is because their acronym is the term in question. However, I'd never thought about putting acronyms in with their particular subject area, and at least objectively, I don't think there's much harm in it, and it does sound useful. -- Natalya 21:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
Adding series tables
Sesshomaru brought up the addition of a series table to the disambiguation page Love (disambiguation). My first thought was that it shouldn't be there, since the page is not an article. However, looking over the table, many of the things listed there seem like they can be referred to as just "love". Additionally, some of the articles titled "Love (clarifier)" are included in the table, but not on the disambiguation page! I imagine it will probably get removed, but what do others think about it? -- Natalya 11:14, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- The table entries "Love (dab phrase)" should be repeated in the dab list. Then the series table, if kept, could be moved down to the See also section. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:19, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
- It's very pretty, but I'd think carefully about setting that kind of precedent, especially since the table shows up on the primary topic article, and several others. I say include the appropriate links in the regular dab list and see also section, wherever appropriate, and then deep six the table. SlackerMom (talk) 13:32, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yuck! Speedy revert. The first link on the dab page is Love. That covers everything in the template. Also, I hate seeing navigation templates on articles not in the template (especially series boxes which say "this article is part of a series ...": no it's not!). jnestorius(talk) 09:57, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Not only that, but: "this article is part of a series..." -- it can't be; it's not even an article! --Tkynerd (talk) 13:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Undone, per WP:BOLD -- RoySmith (talk) 16:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you all for looking into this. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:50, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Undone, per WP:BOLD -- RoySmith (talk) 16:14, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
- Not only that, but: "this article is part of a series..." -- it can't be; it's not even an article! --Tkynerd (talk) 13:10, 17 July 2008 (UTC)
Seeing stars
See Talk:Star (classification)#Related articles and redirects for a current issue and Talk:Star (classification)#Disambiguations for a proposed solution. Comments and other help welcome. Andrewa (talk) 00:51, 15 July 2008 (UTC)
Placement of disambig notice
This guideline currently says:
"Place the appropriate template at the bottom of the page."
Does this mean the template should literally be placed after all other content, including any categories and interlanguage links? Or is there no consensus on this? The layout guideline doesn't cover disambig notices. --Frostie Jack (talk) 12:55, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- You can't place it so that it shows up below the categories on the page. You can only place it below the other page content. When you edit the page, the {{disambig}} template should go after all the disambiguation entries, and it should still appear in the markup before cats or interwiki links. I'll add the clarification. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:08, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Disambig to disambig
A couple of months ago, another editor noted that the initialism MSMC had more uses than just Mount St. Mary's, killed the redirect, and created a new disambig at MSMC that copied some (but not all) of the content from Mount St. Mary's. The Manual of Style recommends linking to Mount St. Mary's from MSMC using a "See also" section, but that seems a bit silly considering there would only be one other link on the page, and considering (apparently) most folks who wind up at MSMC are likely looking for Mount St. Mary's anyway... Any ideas how to handle the style (or lack thereof, currently) at MSMC? user:j (aka justen) 22:01, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- Of the various Mount St. Mary's Colleges, the ones (possibly all of them) that are commonly referred to as MSMC should be listed on both MSMC and on Mount St. Mary's. Presence on one disambiguation page does not prevent presence on another. (If one were particularly industrious, one could make it a common file/template transcluded on each page, but I don't think that's a requirement.) -- JHunterJ (talk) 01:58, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- I really like your "industrious" suggestion. Thanks for the clarification and advice. Now I have some work to do... user:j (aka justen) 02:09, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
"Primary" topic (again)
I have recently had a disagreement with another editor and would like others' input. My view is that, according to the guidance at MOS:DAB#Linking to a primary topic, on U2 (disambiguation), the Irish rock band U2 should go at the top in an introductory line, separated out from the other entries. The other editor says no it should not, because the rock band is not the definition of U2 or the original meaning of the term. (See my talk page for the hairy details.) Have I misunderstood what the guidelines mean by "primary topic"? If not, do the guidelines need clarification? Thanks for any suggestions. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 20:42, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Your understanding (very patiently explained to the other editor) is my understanding as well. I see where he's coming from, but he's not properly interpreting the current guidelines. If he wants to change them, he needs to present his argument here for discussion. I support keeping U2 in the introductory line of US (disambiguation). Arguing about the meaning of "primary topic" is beside the point. The guidelines are clear that if "(disambiguation)" appears in the page title, the article without the "(disambiguation)" should be part of the first line. SlackerMom (talk) 21:00, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- I already proven you wrong below on the main point. However, your improper use of criteria ("lacking diambiguation") is troubling. Many proper definitions are to items not named exactly by that format, as it would be an alternate title. The guidelines are clear, and you are severely misinterpreting them. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, your understanding is correct per Wikipedia's guidelines: a primary topic is defined as "a well known primary meaning for a term or phrase, much more used than any other". In other words, the primary topic is determined by frequency of usage. The guidelines state that if there's a primary topic it should be located at term, with a primary topic link from the top line of the term (disambiguation) page.--Muchness (talk) 21:57, 22 July 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, you are both quite wrong. The primary definition of the page is the Garden of Eden, as that is the alternate name of the Garden of Earthly delights. Therefore, its not the "primary" topic. It may be the most known topic. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:48, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- For all concerned, Paul Erik is misleading people. The original topic was The Garden of Earthly Delights, not U2. It is troubling that a user would make claims without context, and then provoke responses from people without a sense of the actual discussion. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- U2 (disambiguation) was an example of the general principle—how we arrange the disambiguation page when the primary topic is not the original meaning. It's the same principle at Garden of Earthly Delights (disambiguation), at least as I understand it. I was trying to be brief, not misleading. My apologies. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 12:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- There is no primary topic, since multiple topics are undisambiguated! That was obvious. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- U2 (disambiguation) was an example of the general principle—how we arrange the disambiguation page when the primary topic is not the original meaning. It's the same principle at Garden of Earthly Delights (disambiguation), at least as I understand it. I was trying to be brief, not misleading. My apologies. Paul Erik (talk)(contribs) 12:24, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Also, on U2, which wasn't the original - the page has multiple "primary topics", none of which are defined by the combination "U2". To place any one above the rest would cause the original dispute, especially between U2 the band and Lockheed U-2, which are both "undiambiguated" (which is why you cannot go off of such a silly idea and why they didn't before!). Ottava Rima (talk) 04:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- If there's ever a Lockheed U-2 (disambiguation) page, Lockheed U-2 will be its primary topic. Currently, there's a U2 (disambiguation) page, and U2 is its primary topic. Changing it to have no primary topic would involve moving U2 to U2 (band) then moving U2 (disambiguation) to U2. See WP:RM for controversial page move instructions. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- JHunter, you just ignored a lot of history and didn't have any legitimate reason to edit in that way. I suggest you revert yourself. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:05, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Also, JHunter, making that edit and putting up this POV without consensus is the first sign of edit warring, and as you can see from the disambiguation page, there is a history of that. You can do the community a favor by reverting yourself, especially when you made dramatic edits to something that was in effect for a very long time. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ottava, I respectfully, but firmly, disagree with both your comments and your tone here. JHunter did nothing that was POV, and acted in line with long consensus concerning style on disambiguation pages. He is right. If you do not like MOS:DAB, then you need to suggest a change to the guidelines and see if there is consensus to change it. But please stop objecting to the work of the editors who conform to it. If you feel like you are the only one here who understands what's going on, perhaps it is because you are alone in your opinion. SlackerMom (talk) 15:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- By reverting a revert to the standard version of the page, that is edit warring and pushing a POV. You are misinterpreting the guidelines and it is blatantly obvious. "primary topic" clearly is defined as a topic which defines a term, which cannot happen in such situations. There is none. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- An editor's opinion of the style a page should follow is not the same thing as POV. If JHunter was trying to exalt the band U2 to prominence because he is one of their fans, perhaps changing the entry to say "U2, the greatest band that ever lived", then that would be POV. Also where in MOS:DAB is "primary topic" clearly defined as a topic which defines a term (your words)? I can't find it, even though you keep harping on it. Can you direct me to it? Because what I see relates to the NAME of the article, not the definition of a term. That's what we are talking about here - the NAME OF THE ARTICLE. If you don't like the fact that the band's article is named U2 (which makes it the "primary topic" when it comes to disambiguation), then you need to change the name of the page to "U2 (band)" or somesuch thing. SlackerMom (talk) 16:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I know I'll be unpopular for saying it, but the U2 article probably should be renamed to U2 (band). With that said, I don't always buy into the whole "primary topic" concept, as primary topics can often be largely different between age groups, or from one geographic region to another. In this particular case, the U2 (band) article claims that the band originally chose its name "for its ambiguity and open-ended interpretations". It means that they themselves, acknowledge that the term already had at least one primary topic before they decided to borrow it. 142.68.87.24 (talk) 18:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Which is exactly why proper nouns were not used in this manner. However, people like SlackerMom, without an understanding of the various situations or a grasp on the subtle difference, wish to provoke further edit wars by pushing POV responses that would unrightly determine what was "primary", when there can never be such in these situations. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, I know I'll be unpopular for saying it, but the U2 article probably should be renamed to U2 (band). With that said, I don't always buy into the whole "primary topic" concept, as primary topics can often be largely different between age groups, or from one geographic region to another. In this particular case, the U2 (band) article claims that the band originally chose its name "for its ambiguity and open-ended interpretations". It means that they themselves, acknowledge that the term already had at least one primary topic before they decided to borrow it. 142.68.87.24 (talk) 18:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- An editor's opinion of the style a page should follow is not the same thing as POV. If JHunter was trying to exalt the band U2 to prominence because he is one of their fans, perhaps changing the entry to say "U2, the greatest band that ever lived", then that would be POV. Also where in MOS:DAB is "primary topic" clearly defined as a topic which defines a term (your words)? I can't find it, even though you keep harping on it. Can you direct me to it? Because what I see relates to the NAME of the article, not the definition of a term. That's what we are talking about here - the NAME OF THE ARTICLE. If you don't like the fact that the band's article is named U2 (which makes it the "primary topic" when it comes to disambiguation), then you need to change the name of the page to "U2 (band)" or somesuch thing. SlackerMom (talk) 16:04, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- By reverting a revert to the standard version of the page, that is edit warring and pushing a POV. You are misinterpreting the guidelines and it is blatantly obvious. "primary topic" clearly is defined as a topic which defines a term, which cannot happen in such situations. There is none. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:44, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ottava, I respectfully, but firmly, disagree with both your comments and your tone here. JHunter did nothing that was POV, and acted in line with long consensus concerning style on disambiguation pages. He is right. If you do not like MOS:DAB, then you need to suggest a change to the guidelines and see if there is consensus to change it. But please stop objecting to the work of the editors who conform to it. If you feel like you are the only one here who understands what's going on, perhaps it is because you are alone in your opinion. SlackerMom (talk) 15:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- If there's ever a Lockheed U-2 (disambiguation) page, Lockheed U-2 will be its primary topic. Currently, there's a U2 (disambiguation) page, and U2 is its primary topic. Changing it to have no primary topic would involve moving U2 to U2 (band) then moving U2 (disambiguation) to U2. See WP:RM for controversial page move instructions. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:38, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- By definition, an editor's opinion of anything, including style is POV. When you revert another while in the middle of a discussion and that revert happens to be what you agree with, that is POV pushing. That is the basis of an edit war. That action was inappropriate and uncalled for, especially when the page had stayed in that style for many years. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:12, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Also - "Also where in MOS:DAB is "primary topic" clearly defined as a topic which defines a term (your words)?" Clearly if you read it, its there. Notice how "school" links to school, but John Smith does not, just like Samuel Johnson does not as per here and every other page using proper nouns, because proper nouns are not definitional, nor can they be placed as a definition. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:14, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- "Clearly if you read it, it's there." Well, I've read it over and over, and it's not there, so please stop using the word "clearly". Perhaps you should say, "From my POV, it's there." If you want it to be clearly there, then go put it in! To be fair, when it comes to proper human names, the majority of disambiguation pages with a (disambiguation) clarifier in their names are formatted like Samuel Johnson (disambiguation). However, it is NOT true that, as you claim, "every other page using proper nouns" is formatted this way. Please see Ethan Allen (disambiguation) and Francis Bacon (disambiguation) to name a few. (I realize you were using hyperbole, but I feel I need to make the point.) Pages such as Samuel Johnson (disambiguation) do not follow MOS:DAB on this point and should be corrected, or else the "primary topic" articles (the ones without any clarifier in the name) should have their names changed to add a clarifier. I'm guessing that many of these pages may have been created before this guideline was developed, and may have been following the guidelines in place at the time. Hence, perhaps a guideline change, or a clearer explanation, is worth working on. SlackerMom (talk) 19:11, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Since you admitted that you were unable to read the page: "The link on the main article should be similar to: For other uses, see School (disambiguation)." The line then reads: "A school is an institution for learning." In English, the word "is" is for definitions. ___ is defined as ____. Now, with proper nouns, you cannot have definitions. All proper nouns are not the definition of the word. Hence, why Samuel Johnson, U2, and every other proper noun does not have the blue link at the top. This is standard English grammar and standard reading. The only way for you not to read this way is because you are pushing the POV of a person started an edit war. Those proper nouns that don't reflect this are incorrect. As anyone who wished to actually investigate, Francis Bacon's page was altered many times recently: this, this, etc, so your use of it is troubling, to say the least. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- You have got to be kidding. Are you sincerely arguing that it is incorrect to ever use the word "is" after a proper noun? Propaniac (talk) 20:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- If you bothered to read, when you are using definitions, the definition of a term is not a proper noun. Before you start using incivil terms as "ridiculousness", try not to be so ridiculous as to miss this obvious point. The definition of "Samuel Johnson" is not "a poet and writer from the 18th century". The definition is "a name". That is beyond all dispute, and the fact that you dispute it is, well, you can fill in the rest. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:20, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Now, to make things worse, the above user claims here that Georgia was an African country. If the above user would have actually looked at the page, he would have seen that Georgia, the country, was part of the USSR, and the USSR never extended into Africa. Furthermore, his own previous example verifies what I have been saying, and their choice of term "ridiculousness" is only verified as being patently absurd by his original example. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:23, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ottava Rima, you are really grasping at straws. First by insulting several long-time participants in the disambiguation project (some of whom have previously participated in lengthy discussion about primary topic usage and in working out the phrasings of this guideline) that by virtue of your deductive reasoning (however faulty its premises) you know better than all the other participants here what was meant by the phrasing on the page. You are not going to convince anyone by being so blatantly offensive. older ≠ wiser 22:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Instead of trying to "win" an argument by falsely accusing people of insulting others, which is obvious from the lack of such above and also against both civil and agf, could you please focus on actual content issues? Thanks. And you can assume this is your warning for the above. Its inappropriate to attack users while ignoring the actual issues. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Your insults have been remarked upon by others. Your denial does not make them any less insulting.older ≠ wiser 22:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Your failure to provide evidence of my insulting others is only further proof that you are making false accusations and personally attacking me, which is a double breach of civil. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ottava Rima, thank you for avoiding an edit war at U2. Everyone, please consider letting this drop here and taking it up (if needed) at Talk:U2 and/or User talk:Ottava Rima (or User talk:JHunterJ). I don't think there's anything left to be gained here. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:42, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Your failure to provide evidence of my insulting others is only further proof that you are making false accusations and personally attacking me, which is a double breach of civil. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:45, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Your insults have been remarked upon by others. Your denial does not make them any less insulting.older ≠ wiser 22:30, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Instead of trying to "win" an argument by falsely accusing people of insulting others, which is obvious from the lack of such above and also against both civil and agf, could you please focus on actual content issues? Thanks. And you can assume this is your warning for the above. Its inappropriate to attack users while ignoring the actual issues. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:19, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Ottava Rima, you are really grasping at straws. First by insulting several long-time participants in the disambiguation project (some of whom have previously participated in lengthy discussion about primary topic usage and in working out the phrasings of this guideline) that by virtue of your deductive reasoning (however faulty its premises) you know better than all the other participants here what was meant by the phrasing on the page. You are not going to convince anyone by being so blatantly offensive. older ≠ wiser 22:07, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- You have got to be kidding. Are you sincerely arguing that it is incorrect to ever use the word "is" after a proper noun? Propaniac (talk) 20:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- Since you admitted that you were unable to read the page: "The link on the main article should be similar to: For other uses, see School (disambiguation)." The line then reads: "A school is an institution for learning." In English, the word "is" is for definitions. ___ is defined as ____. Now, with proper nouns, you cannot have definitions. All proper nouns are not the definition of the word. Hence, why Samuel Johnson, U2, and every other proper noun does not have the blue link at the top. This is standard English grammar and standard reading. The only way for you not to read this way is because you are pushing the POV of a person started an edit war. Those proper nouns that don't reflect this are incorrect. As anyone who wished to actually investigate, Francis Bacon's page was altered many times recently: this, this, etc, so your use of it is troubling, to say the least. Ottava Rima (talk) 19:47, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Answered at Talk:U2 and cleaned up U2 again. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:57, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Village pump
May be of interest to those involved in this discussion: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Disambiguations. --Frostie Jack (talk) 22:50, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- I linked one way and forgot to link the other. I think everyone currently involved is participating above and should see the link here, so individual linking shouldn't be necessary. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:01, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
Regarding J's edit, can we just make it that there is only one layout? That's why I did this. I believe it'll help avoid future arguments. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Why does it need to be restricted to only one? Explicitly allowing both should both reduce the arguments and avoid the need for trivial edits; the navigational abilities of the disambiguation pages are not impeded by either choice. As I tried to tell you here, the example on avoiding piping should not be read as a restriction on introductory lines, and it's not an excuse to revert the choices of other editors. -- JHunterJ (talk) 21:12, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) My thoughts are that I prefer to list both words (Rock or rocks...) rather than use parentheses (Rock(s)...), so if we're going to make it only one way, I prefer the first. However, in the interest of avoiding future arguments, I think it would be better to leave both options open - then it is up to the preference of the editor, and there's nothing to argue about. I think JHunter's edit is appropriate and helpful. SlackerMom (talk) 21:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Agree with SlackerMom on both counts: prefer Rock or rocks and in the interest of limiting the number of trivial things for people to get into stupid disputes over, better to allow both. older ≠ wiser 21:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- Have we come to an agreement? Looks like either format is fine, but I just want to be sure. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- So it seems. Am I the only one laughing about trivial disputes? Probably... so it goes! -- Natalya 21:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Have we come to an agreement? Looks like either format is fine, but I just want to be sure. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
- Agree with SlackerMom on both counts: prefer Rock or rocks and in the interest of limiting the number of trivial things for people to get into stupid disputes over, better to allow both. older ≠ wiser 21:43, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) My thoughts are that I prefer to list both words (Rock or rocks...) rather than use parentheses (Rock(s)...), so if we're going to make it only one way, I prefer the first. However, in the interest of avoiding future arguments, I think it would be better to leave both options open - then it is up to the preference of the editor, and there's nothing to argue about. I think JHunter's edit is appropriate and helpful. SlackerMom (talk) 21:18, 26 July 2008 (UTC)
Dictionary definitions and short descriptions
WP:D#Dictionary definitions indicates that a short description is appropriate. WP:MOSDAB#Linking to Wiktionary simply says don't include definitions. I've been editing using the first guideline. I was going to add a similar note here, unless there are objections. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:29, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- Interesting... I'd never seen/had forgotten about the part mentioned in WP:D#Dictionary definitions - I've always used the MOS:DAB guideline about no dictionary definitions at all, including short definitions at the top of the page. I agree that it can help with context, if we have a really obvious word being disambiguated but no article about that term, and yet... Wikipedia is not a dictionary. And disambiguation pages aren't articles. I'm a little wary of advocating for short dictionary definitions on some pages, but more discussion would be good - still need to ponder. -- Natalya 11:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- IMHO the reason for discouraging dictionary defs on dab pages is that they do not help the reader to find the right article, they impart information. Abtract (talk) 13:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- Right, when people read an encyclopedia, information is the last thing they're likely to be looking for ;)--Kotniski (talk) 13:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well I don't know about you guys, but I'm only here looking for sandwiches. ;) No, that's definitly a point, but if the goal of disambiguation pages is to get people to the article they're looking for, extraneous information not related to an article only seems like that will hinder the goal. -- Natalya 17:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- (I can personally recommend this one.) No, generally I agree, but in some cases the information (meaning) they're looking for might happen to be both a) sufficiently short not to mess up the dab page much; and b) not currently the topic of any article. In that case, why not just give them the info on a plate and make them and their mouse-fingers happy? --Kotniski (talk) 17:44, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- Well I don't know about you guys, but I'm only here looking for sandwiches. ;) No, that's definitly a point, but if the goal of disambiguation pages is to get people to the article they're looking for, extraneous information not related to an article only seems like that will hinder the goal. -- Natalya 17:20, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- Right, when people read an encyclopedia, information is the last thing they're likely to be looking for ;)--Kotniski (talk) 13:45, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
- IMHO the reason for discouraging dictionary defs on dab pages is that they do not help the reader to find the right article, they impart information. Abtract (talk) 13:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
I am having a debate on the need for redirects here; I would appreciate other opinions. Abtract (talk) 13:37, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
A discussion about redirects in disambiguation pages
Following Abtract's thread above, there's been quite a bit of discussion over at Talk:DB#Redirects about having a redirect as the link for an entry on a disambiguation page. There hasn't quite been an agreement, but it seems that if we can clarify a piece of the Manual of Style here, it should solve the problem, and hopefully allow for future clarity.
The section of the MoS in question comes from Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(disambiguation_pages)#Piping, specifically the following part: "This guidance to avoid piping means that a link to a redirect term will sometimes be preferred to a direct link, if the redirect term contains the disambiguation title and the redirect target does not. For example, in Delta (disambiguation), a link to the redirect term Delta Quadrant would be preferred over its target, Galactic quadrant." I am attempting to summarize the different opinions from Talk:DB#Redirects (so if there has been any misrepresentation, please do correct me); the different takes on that guideline are either that:
a) If there is an article to be listed on a disambiguation page, if that article is not of the exact name of the disambiguation page, and there is a redirect to that article of the style "Term (qualifier)", that redirect should alwyas be used.
b) If there is an article to be listed on a disambiguation page, if that article is not of the exact name of the disambiguation page, a redirect should be used if the name of the article does not make it clear why the article would be listed on that disambiguation page.
What are thoughts on this? Hopefully we can work out what exactly the guideline should be guiding us to do here, and then apply it elsewhere. Thanks for an anticipated respectful discussion, -- Natalya 01:00, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- a) is a little too narrowly prescriptive for my tastes, but b) is also not really much more helpful than the current text. I think redirects are helpful in cases where the actual title of the target article is significantly different from the term being disambiguated, such that it might not be obvious why the target article is listed on the disambiguation page. Disambiguation listings for initialisms are, IMO, a special case since the reason for the list is relatively self-evident (although there is the usual caveat that we don't want the page to be a random listing of terms with the specific initials without evidence that the term is commonly referred to by the initialism). older ≠ wiser 01:16, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- Having just re-read the whole piping section and there is more to this than first meets the eye. The first exeption to the "ban" on piping says "Use piping if you are linking to an anchor point on the target page" which should surely apply to the Delta Quadrant line used as an examply of when to use a redirect! As I read that exception, it would be better this way: "Delta Quadrant, one of the Galactic quadrants in the Star Trek series". If this interpretation is corrct, then we need to re-look at the whole section. Abtract (talk) 07:21, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps some additional discussion is merited. I think one of the main rationales for using redirects is essentially neatness, with some vague assertion that having the links to targets consistently at the beginning of the line improves usability. There may be something to that, but I also think the use of redirects can be overdone. I'm not sure how much value there is to making single-use redirects simply to achieve consistency on a disambiguation page. In the example mentioned, I think there is a possibility (although somewhat remote) that there could be an article about the Delta Quadrant. Or at least, there is a at least some likelihood that people might link to Delta Quadrant in articles and thus the redirect is not for the single purpose of making a neat disambiguation page. older ≠ wiser 11:56, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- I personally prefer usage of redirects. Why? For consistency with the dab term. See Bongo, Zero (disambiguation), Burdock (disambiguation), Rinku, Gouki, Boo (disambiguation), Haku, Bunny (disambiguation), Son Goku, and endless others. First, I really don't agree with Abtract's "ban" on redirects because I fail to see how it helps to avoid confusion (if anything it makes the dab look dreadful!). Second, Bkonrad's logic makes sense, but the part about not using initialism redirects does not. Even if it is obvious that an acronym would be such, it should not exclude the fact that it still falls under WP:PIPING. That's why DMZ (disambiguation) is the way it is. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 15:09, 2 August 2008 (UTC)
- The problem with precedents is that they can be a double edged sword:
- Bongo contains three entries to articles not containing Bongo in the article title, only one uses a redirect
- Zero is too long to look through sorry
- Burdock (disambiguation) has just one and it uses a redirect ... but to an anchor point which Piping specifically disallows
- Rinku has two entries only and both use redirects
- Gouki has three, two of which are to anchor points
- Boo (disambiguation) has one unecessary redirect (Boo! (Frasier episode), three other redirects and three similar entries using piping
- Haku has one redirect to an anchor point, one correct redirect and one entry using piping
- Bunny is too long to look through but I did notice there are seven entries piped
- Son Goku has one redirect and one piped entry
- DMZ (disambiguation) has five redirects and two piped enties. The five redirects are for different demilitarised zones and imho very useful - an exception to the case I am trying to make.
- DB wasn't mentioned but there are five entries not redirected (I'm not counting Daily Bugle which started all this).
- I hope you can see that the precedents simply demonstrate that we have a bit of a "buggers' muddle" as we say in the UK
- The problem with precedents is that they can be a double edged sword:
- The way I see it is that:
- Piping should be used to an anchor point (as per currect guidelines)
- A redirect should be used when the target article has a different name to the dab term but the dab term is mentioned early in the article (as per current guidelines but not being followed by all editors in practice)
- No piping or redirects are necessary with initialised terms (not entirely clear in current guidelines)
- Anything not covered by these three should be dealt with as seems most user friendly ... and indeed exceptions may well occur to the first three (eg DMZ as mentioned above)
- The way I see it is that:
- What have we agreed on? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if there's been any agreement yet, but I think Abtract's laid out the things that we need to come to consensus on, so that we can better define the guideline:
- Should we use piping or a redirect for anchor links (WP:PIPING actually mentions both options), or have both as an option and use personal discretion.
- Abtract, could you clarify what you mean by your second point?
- Should we use redirects for initialized terms (the example and others that brought up this argument).
- I'm guessing the last of the three of these issues will be the hardest to deal with, but we can a least start in small chunks. -- Natalya 02:22, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if there's been any agreement yet, but I think Abtract's laid out the things that we need to come to consensus on, so that we can better define the guideline:
- What have we agreed on? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:30, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- Way I see it, we keep the current guidelines but add something like: "a redirect is preferred for a term that has a known alphabetism". Then give an example. That ok? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- From the expressions of other editors above, I don't think that there is agreement that that preference is true for all. I'm going to go un-neutral now... I think (as was mentioned previously in this discussion), that redirects are good when it is unclear why a link is on a disambiguation page. I also understand that having all redirects does make things more standardized. However, especially with initialisms, I think we actually lose information when all links are redirects. I'm sure that there are times when having a redirect for an initialism is more useful, but just considering the disambiguation page Ada (which recently had the very long contents of ADA merged into it), if each entry on that page referred to as "ADA" were to have a link "ADA (clarifier)", we would lose a lot of information. There would have to be a description saying exactly what each initialism stood for, so, in order for someone to find the article she is looking for, she would have to read both the link and the description. If we don't have them all use redirects, but rather their actual titles (as they do now), one only has to look at the name of the links to determine if that is the desired article or not. Just my thoughts. -- Natalya 11:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- Very nicely put Natalya. I find it interesting that the practice of redirecting the initial link was introduced as an option that could be used in some cases -- but now it is being interpreted by some as mandatory. The primary consideration for constructing disambiguation pages should always be to make it easier for readers to find the articles they are looking for. Rigid application of formal rules that disregard this primary purpose is not helpful. older ≠ wiser 13:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- I see. Then I have no choice but to agree with you guys. What should we write in the MoS to prevent things like this from happening again? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 00:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you sound so despondant, Sesshomaru! Those are just my thoughts on the matter - it far from means that I am necessarily correct! And either way, there are always cases when ignoring the rules is good, which I hope we will be sure to mention in the clarified guidelines. -- Natalya 02:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- Something came to mind: what to do with dabs like HP (disambiguation), DB, and DMZ (disambiguation)? Use the respective acronym redirects or not? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:18, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you sound so despondant, Sesshomaru! Those are just my thoughts on the matter - it far from means that I am necessarily correct! And either way, there are always cases when ignoring the rules is good, which I hope we will be sure to mention in the clarified guidelines. -- Natalya 02:08, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- I see. Then I have no choice but to agree with you guys. What should we write in the MoS to prevent things like this from happening again? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 00:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- Very nicely put Natalya. I find it interesting that the practice of redirecting the initial link was introduced as an option that could be used in some cases -- but now it is being interpreted by some as mandatory. The primary consideration for constructing disambiguation pages should always be to make it easier for readers to find the articles they are looking for. Rigid application of formal rules that disregard this primary purpose is not helpful. older ≠ wiser 13:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- From the expressions of other editors above, I don't think that there is agreement that that preference is true for all. I'm going to go un-neutral now... I think (as was mentioned previously in this discussion), that redirects are good when it is unclear why a link is on a disambiguation page. I also understand that having all redirects does make things more standardized. However, especially with initialisms, I think we actually lose information when all links are redirects. I'm sure that there are times when having a redirect for an initialism is more useful, but just considering the disambiguation page Ada (which recently had the very long contents of ADA merged into it), if each entry on that page referred to as "ADA" were to have a link "ADA (clarifier)", we would lose a lot of information. There would have to be a description saying exactly what each initialism stood for, so, in order for someone to find the article she is looking for, she would have to read both the link and the description. If we don't have them all use redirects, but rather their actual titles (as they do now), one only has to look at the name of the links to determine if that is the desired article or not. Just my thoughts. -- Natalya 11:33, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
- Way I see it, we keep the current guidelines but add something like: "a redirect is preferred for a term that has a known alphabetism". Then give an example. That ok? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 02:47, 5 August 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Ohhhh, interesting. We appear to have conflicting precidents, because at HP (disambiguation), the link to Hewlett-Packard Company is listed as HP. At the same time, we've had many people advocating at DB for the link to Daily Bugle to be "Daily Bugle", not The DB. Verrrrry interesting... there's probably something about notability of names or something, althout it seems that Daily Bugle is referred to as "The DB" in a similar fashion that Hewlett-Packard Company is referred to as "HP". In all seriousness, my brain is a little fried on this issue. Other opinions would be greatly welcome. -- Natalya 19:56, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- A significant difference for HP (disambiguation) is that HP (which redirects to Hewlett-Packard Company) is treated as one of two primary topics for that disambiguation page. The repetitious phrasing at DMZ (disambiguation) caused by the use of redirects to be not particularly helpful on that page. older ≠ wiser 20:29, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- Come again? From what I'm understanding "The DB" would be favoured over "Daily Bugle", following the precedents given above. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Piping section break
Trying to move this forward, I have shown immediately below the current wording and below that again I have shown my proposeed wording. I hope you will see that my proposal takes account of the comments in our discussion: where there is agreement, I have gone with that; where there is disagreement, I have gone with what I perceive to be the majority; where I see no obvious majority, I have gone with my personal view (can you blame me?). I have tried to include as much rationale as possible in the newly worded proposal to avoid the need for another debate in 6 months time. I have also put reference points, (AA) (BB) etc, through the new words to make it easier to discuss the proposed changes:
Old section titled "Piping"
"Piping" means concealing the actual title of a linked article by replacing it with other text, typically to suppress parenthetical expressions.
Do not pipe the name of the links to the articles being listed. For example, in the entry for Moment (physics), the word "physics" should be visible to the reader. In many cases, what would be hidden by a pipe is exactly what the user would need to be able to find the intended article.
Exceptions:
- Use piping if you are linking to an anchor point on the target page.
- Use piping if the article title differs from what it should be due to technical limitations per {{wrongtitle}}; for instance, The Singles 81>85 or Softimage|XSI.
- Use piping to add italics or quotation marks to part of an article name; for instance, Harvey (film), USS Adder (SS-3), "School" (song), Saturnalia (dinosaur), "Hush" (Buffy episode), Neo (The Matrix).
If the link is in the description instead of the subject, you may use piping in that link.
Example:
Rock(s) may refer to: - Rock, the name of [[Mega Man (character)|Mega Man]] in the Japanese versions of the games
This guidance to avoid piping means that a link to a redirect term will sometimes be preferred to a direct link, if the redirect term contains the disambiguation title and the redirect target does not. For example, in Delta (disambiguation), a link to the redirect term Delta Quadrant would be preferred over its target, Galactic quadrant.
New wording section to be titled "Redirects and piping"
"Piping" means concealing the actual title of a linked article by replacing it with other text, typically to suppress parenthetical expressions.
(AA)A redirect is a special page used to "jump" readers from one page title to page with another title where the targeted article is located. For example, a redirect is used at the title 9/11 to send users who navigate there to the article at September 11, 2001 attacks. (AA)
(BB) In general, it is best not to use piping or redirects in disambiguation pages so that it is clear to the reader which article is being suggested, and so that they remain in control of the choice of article. However, there are circumstances where a redirect or piping is useful to the reader.(BB)
- Where piping should not be used:
- Do not pipe the name of the links to the articles being listed. For example, in the entry for Moment (physics), the word "physics" should be visible to the reader. In many cases, what would be hidden by a pipe is exactly what the user would need to be able to find the intended article.
- Where piping can be helpful:
- (CC)Piping may be used for linking to a specific section of an article using anchor points. Piping is preferred to creating a redirect in cases where the section title is easily distinguishable from the disambiguated term, and the term is simply mentioned or described within the text of the section. This indicates a low possibility that the term will eventually have its own dedicated article. This technique is used commonly for piping to the track listing section of an album; a further example, from E (disambiguation), is that the piped ESRB is preferred to simply linking to the top of the target page ESRB.
- When piping is used on a disambiguation page to link to an article section, the link should be in the description and not used to begin that line on the disambiguation page.(CC)
- Use piping if the article title differs from what it should be due to technical limitations per {{wrongtitle}}; for instance, The Singles 81>85 or Softimage|XSI.
- Use piping to add italics or quotation marks to part of an article name; for instance, Harvey (film), USS Adder (SS-3), "School" (song), Saturnalia (dinosaur), "Hush" (Buffy episode), Neo (The Matrix).
- (CC)Piping may be used for linking to a specific section of an article using anchor points. Piping is preferred to creating a redirect in cases where the section title is easily distinguishable from the disambiguated term, and the term is simply mentioned or described within the text of the section. This indicates a low possibility that the term will eventually have its own dedicated article. This technique is used commonly for piping to the track listing section of an album; a further example, from E (disambiguation), is that the piped ESRB is preferred to simply linking to the top of the target page ESRB.
- Where redirects should not be used:
- (DD) When the disambiguated term is an initialism, links should not use redirects to conceal the expanded version of that initialism. For example, on the disambiguation page BNL, linking to the full article title Banca Nazionale del Lavoro is preferable to linking to a redirect at BNL (bank) (although the existence of such a redirect may be useful for other purposes).
- This does not apply to the primary topic (see Linking to a primary topic above) on a disambiguation page for an initialism." (DD)
- (DD) When the disambiguated term is an initialism, links should not use redirects to conceal the expanded version of that initialism. For example, on the disambiguation page BNL, linking to the full article title Banca Nazionale del Lavoro is preferable to linking to a redirect at BNL (bank) (although the existence of such a redirect may be useful for other purposes).
- Where redirects can be helpful:
- (EE) A redirect should be used to link to a specific section of an article only if the title of that section is more or less synonymous with the disambiguated topic. This indicates a higher possibility that the topic may eventually have its own article." For example, in Delta (disambiguation), a link to the redirect term Delta Quadrant would be preferred over its target, Galactic quadrant. Use this technique when the link is the subject of the line, not when it is in the description.(EE)
- (FF)Linking to a redirect is also helpful when the redirect contains the disambiguated term and the target article uses an alternative title; for example, linking to cell phone (instead of mobile phone) on the disambiguation page for cell.
- In either of the above cases, the link to the redirect should begin the line on the disambiguation page, as when linking directly to an article title.(FF)
Comments on proposed new wording
If you care to comment here, I will amend the section above to fit your comments if they seem to have support. Of course anyone else can also change the wording above but I think it might be helpful if you were to explain here why you were making the change. Abtract (talk) 12:42, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- Comments have been received from User:Propaniac for which, thank you. These have been incorporated into my proposals above with some minor rewording and I have changed the example in AA to avoid using the same one twice. To make it easier for others to see just what is going on I have removed Propaniac's specific suggestions (as I said they have been incorporated so I hope that is OK) just leaving their intro and a thought about another section. Abtract (talk) 15:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC) ... "Suggested rephrasing below; trying to explain this stuff clearly is much harder and took much longer than I expected. I would suggest that MOS:DP#Linking to a primary topic be amended to state explicitly that the link to a primary topic should go to that title, whether or not the title is a redirect. Propaniac (talk) 14:01, 11 August 2008 (UTC)"
- Question - what about the page DB, which started all this? If your proposal goes through what happens to the entry Daily Bugle there? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Oppose - at least that bit on DD (which I didn't catch the first time). If anything, acronym redirects should be in practice to match the dab term. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:47, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, are you saying you agree with my proposed wording exept that section? And your proposal in DD would be to encourage redirects? Abtract (talk) 21:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes. For instance, I still think The DB should replace Daily Bugle. J suggested DB (comics), but I prefer "The DB" since the article in question mentions that name, not just "DB". Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:44, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, are you saying you agree with my proposed wording exept that section? And your proposal in DD would be to encourage redirects? Abtract (talk) 21:30, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Notice of action - Unless there are more comments, I am going to put the proposed wording in place. There has been only one objection and that was to just one section DD which has been discussed elsewhere and imho all other opinion is in favour of my proposal at DD. I will act in a couple of days. Abtract (talk) 19:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
- Notice of comment - where has DD been discussed? I also fail to see how others are in favour of DD when only three editors have commented in this section, you and I included. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:48, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
- User:Bkonrad agreed here, Propaniac agrees by not suggesting it be altered, I had a feeling User:JHunterJ agreed somewhere but sadly I can't find it, and of course I agree. In addition most dab pages of initialisms do not use redirects so precedence favours the change. The fact that others who look at this page have not commented so far is a pity and that was my main reason for giving "notice" ... hoping they would comment. Abtract (talk) 22:07, 14 August 2008 (UTC)
- More comments - I notice the changes have been made, so what should be done to HP (disambiguation), MGS and DMZ (disambiguation), as asked above? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- And N (disambiguation)? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- Just follow the guidelines but I don't think many changes are needed because this new wording is very similar to what has been common practice for some time for most editors. Only some of your more recent edits may need changing. The pages you mentioned above look ok at a quick glance ... maybe dmz has too many artificial redirects but I can't get too excited about that. Abtract (talk) 06:21, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- And N (disambiguation)? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 01:57, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Suggested addition to Wikipedia:Mosdab#Longer lists section
I'm constantly running across dab pages with divisions that have only one or two entries, as well as dab pages with vague, overlapping divisions like "Groups", "Businesses", and "Organizations", or "Modern culture". I propose adding the following text to the Longer lists section, before the paragraph that begins "Section headings may be used...":
- "Subject areas should be chosen to best aid navigation. Divisions that are too broad or ill-defined should be avoided, as well as divisions that are too narrow. In particular, divisions that contain only one or two entries should typically be merged into an "Other uses" section. Keep in mind that the same subject areas might not make for the best divisions on different disambiguation pages."
— Swpbτ • c 16:28, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, I think a section with only two entries is fine; granted, I'd hope to find a more comprehensive way to organize the articles, but a massive "Other" section can be really hard to navigate, and I'd rather be able to move a few links out of it into their own section, even if it only has two links.
- It's probably just because I'm well familiarized with making longer lists (and many examples of them) that I initially didn't feel the need for such additional instruction. However, looking over what the MoS does say, it does not really elucidate how to section things, so for people who haven't already had run-ins with long lists, it would probably be helpful. I agree with everything that you've written for the paragraph, except the part of divisions only containing two links. Divisions of one link aren't really useful, that is true. -- Natalya 16:47, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- I suppose two-entry divisions aren't the worst thing in the world, but they look cluttered to me, which may slow navigation instead of speeding it up. I agree, though, that a huge "Other uses" section is equally problematic. Ideally, the divisions should be chosen in such a way as to avoid both those possibilities, and I don't think I've ever come across a dab page where this couldn't be done, though sometimes it takes an extra bit of thought. I'd be ok with not saying that two-entry divisions should "typically" be merged, but I want to get across the idea that subject divisions are most helpful when they split the dab page into no more than a handful of roughly equally sized chunks. (Actually, the ideal for navigation speed would be to have the number of divisions roughly equal to the number of entries per division.)
- I think some editors see the "Other uses" section as a failure to categorize, and feel the need to push things out of it as much as possible, even if that means tiny divisions. But I think that from a navigation standpoint, "Other uses" can be as big as any other division without slowing the navigator down, as long as the other division names are clear enough that the navigator can quickly settle on "Other uses" by process of elimination. — Swpbτ • c 17:16, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- I am inclined to agree that sections of one or two entries should be avoided wherever possible. I have tried a couple of times putting the "other uses" section at the top and calling it "general usage" so that it is not overlooked but whether this has a wider application I'm not sure. Abtract (talk) 21:13, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- I would say that "other uses", no matter what you call it, should always go at the bottom, because it's a section that a navigator would look in after a process of elimination. If you're looking for a particular article, you're not going to overlook the "other uses" section if none of the names of the preceding sections fit the bill. On the other hand, if the "other uses" section is at the top, you're still going to have to scroll down through the other divisions to see if any of them looks right, and then scroll back to the top if none of them does (or you might start by reading through the "other uses" entries, which would slow you down if the article you're looking for actually is in another section). One possible exception is for "main" topics – cases in which one (or sometimes two, very rarely three) articles represent the vast majority of the searches which land at the dab page. Main topics are often included in sentence form at the top if the dab page (see Gold (disambiguation)). Navigating a sectioned dab page is ideally a linear, two step process – first, scroll down the page, reading only the section names, and stop at the one that seems like it should contain the article you're looking for, then scan down the entries in only that section until you find your article. The idea is that you should never have to scroll back up the page, or look at anything twice. — Swpbτ • c 22:03, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- I knew there was a reason why I only did it a couple of time. :) Abtract (talk) 22:14, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- Those are fair comments. I like the thought of suggesting "similar-sized sections", so that we hopefully wouldn't get sections too big or too small. I'm okay discouraging unnecessarily small sections when better sectioning can occur, I just don't want to outright ban it for when it can be useful. -- Natalya 21:58, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- How about this version: "Subject areas should be chosen to best aid navigation. Choose divisions that are well-defined, and that break the entries up into similarly-sized chunks. Very small divisions may impede navigation, and should usually be avoided. Disambiguation pages will frequently have an "Other uses" section for entries that don't fit neatly into another section. Keep in mind that a particular division scheme may not work equally well on all disambiguation pages." — Swpbτ • c 22:22, 3 August 2008 (UTC)
- That looks good to me. Although the first sentence is possible a given, it is positive. It amuses me to think of someone saying "No, I want to make subject sectioning as difficult to understand as possible". :) -- Natalya 01:10, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
So then, shall I make the change? — Swpbτ • c 04:18, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
Pages containing acronyms
For pages that contain information on both a word and an acronym of the same spelling (take Arc) for example, is there a preference for the page being located at "Arc" or "ARC"? If not, it would be good to clarify in the MoS, just so that we can have some consistancy. I'm either for having them located at the non-capitalized version, or at whichever version has more links on the page. -- Natalya 20:20, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- I would go for Arc (as you did) when there is, or could be, a word spelled that way ... but all caps when it is clearly just initials such as BBD (Bbd would look a little odd don't you think?) Abtract (talk) 22:01, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
Country initialisms
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (disambiguation pages)#Places says, "It might be appropriate to add the country after the link." If the country is, for example, the United States, should that be written out, or can an initialism (US or USA) be used? What other countries have very commonly known initialisms? --Geniac (talk) 13:22, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- Unless there is already a policy to the contrary, I would prefer USA over United States because it is easier to write, easier to read and less ambiguous (there are other "United States"); also prefer UK over United Kingdom. Abtract (talk) 13:33, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- U.S.A. or United States sounds good. I personally prefer the former (it's what I've been using). Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 16:00, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
Style of Someone Name (disambiguation) pages
Another editor and I have conflicting ideas about the layout of George McManus (disambiguation), see this edit, and discussion. I think that the page should follow WP:MOSDAB#Linking to a primary topic, while the other editor thinks this doesn't apply to people, and therefore the layout shown at WP:MOSDAB#People is applicable. A brief look at the dab pages for various U.S. presidents shows there is no consistency on this topic. Other opinions would be helpful. Tassedethe (talk) 16:04, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- It's a judgment call, anyway: Is there a primary uasge? Thomas Jefferson certainly is, but is Benjamin Harrison? Not clearly, especially against his great-grandfather the signer.
- The fundamental question is: Are most readers who get to the dab page going to be interested in one link? The default is that they won't, because they probably came to the dab page from there and are interested in other people of the same name. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- However, if George McManus is not the primary person that article will need to be renamed (say George McManus (cartoonist)) and the dab page moved to George McManus Abtract (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- Abtract just said what I was going to say! It's fine if there's no primary topic, but the way the pages are named now, George McManus is implied to be the primary topic, and the guidelines at WP:MOSDAB#Linking to a primary topic should be followed. If he isn't the primary topic, then the page can look the way it does now, but will require the page move Abtract described. -- Natalya 16:59, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
- The dab page is perfectly clear and accessible as it stands. It would be simpler and better for the encyclopedia to rethink what we need on dqb pqges with three entries. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:53, 7 August 2008 (UTC)
wp:dab says:
- Do not add links that merely contain part of the page title, or links that include the page title in a longer proper name, where there is no significant risk of confusion. Only add links to articles that could use essentially the same title as the disambiguated term. Disambiguation pages are not search indices.
The conflict on wp:mosdab is the rock example. Suggestions? Thanks, Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 18:03, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
- What precisely do you as the conflict? Mega Man (character) could have title at Rock as it is an alternate name for the character. older ≠ wiser 18:39, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
- What defines could? Anything could have a title of something else. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 21:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- Presumably it means "could reasonably". But as a general point, we oughtn't to have these two pages (DAB/MOSDAB) covering overlapping ground. Let's either merge them or draw a clear boundary between them.--Kotniski (talk) 22:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- Of course it means "could reasonably". Before we start talking about merging or drawing clear boundaries, I'm still not sure that there actually is any conflict. older ≠ wiser 22:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps below wording needs to be tightened up:
- "...If the link is in the description instead of the subject, you may use piping in that link..."
- Two problems with this. One, why allow piping for this example? Two: wp:dab implies that don't link because of a description. The quoted text implies or overtly says that link to articles which use the term in a description is o.k. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 00:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- Perhaps below wording needs to be tightened up:
- Of course it means "could reasonably". Before we start talking about merging or drawing clear boundaries, I'm still not sure that there actually is any conflict. older ≠ wiser 22:45, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- Presumably it means "could reasonably". But as a general point, we oughtn't to have these two pages (DAB/MOSDAB) covering overlapping ground. Let's either merge them or draw a clear boundary between them.--Kotniski (talk) 22:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
- What defines could? Anything could have a title of something else. Daniel.Cardenas (talk) 21:56, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
On the talk of merging the pages, this page (the Manual of Style) clearly defines how disambiguation pages should be laid out, while WP:D describes when/how to use disambiguation pages. Although there is definitly some information included on both pages, I think their separation is very appropriate. -- Natalya 23:50, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
Disambiguation pages with only two entries
According to WP:HATNOTE#Two articles with the same title:
When two articles share the same title, the unambiguated article should include a hatnote with a link to the other article. It is not necessary to create a separate disambiguation page. {{otheruses4}} may be used for this.
MOS:DP#Disambiguation pages with only two entries currently reads:
Some disambiguation pages with "(disambiguation)" in the title list only two meanings, one of them being the primary meaning. In such cases, the disambiguation page is not strictly necessary, but is harmless. The recommended practice is to use a hatnote on the article for the primary meaning to link directly to the secondary meaning.
My suggested revision of the MOS:DP section:
In general, a disambiguation page is unnecessary when there are only two meanings to be disambiguated. In such a case, the recommended practice is to use a hatnote, linking to the other meaning, on the article for the primary topic, if there is one, or on the article most likely to be targeted by the disambiguation term, if that can be determined.
I just think the MOS should be firmer about avoiding dab pages with only two links if possible. As I see it, if you have Use 1 and Use 2, sending the user to a dab page means that every user is going to have to load the dab page, read it, and click the meaning that they want, whereas if you send them to Use 1, only the users looking for Use 2 will be inconvenienced. It's not a huge burden, but it's an unnecessary one, and therefore I think it's misleading to say that such dab pages are harmless (under the mindset that badly-formatted disambiguation pages aren't themselves harmless, anyway). Propaniac (talk) 18:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- I would agree with you except for the fact that it would create yet another way in which pettiness can creep in. IMHO we must avoid the situation that arises time and time again, where a "dab expert" makes a very small change (for example "use" to "usage") just because the guidelines suggest it. Lets leave two line dab pages alone please. Abtract (talk) 18:46, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- I don't see why it's a problem if people choose to make small, fairly insignificant changes or improvements, or why we should avoid altering the MOS to a more preferable version out of fear that people will edit pages to a more preferable standard. We all do this voluntarily. Propaniac (talk) 20:03, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
I would support this change. "Unnecessary" is a more accurate word than "harmless", and your wording may do better to help prevent creation of new unnecessary pages. SlackerMom (talk) 20:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- Comment - I think that in order to have a dab page there must be at least three encyclopedic entries (like Buu, Devilman (disambiguation), Shinto (disambiguation), and DBZ). But what about dabs which have two, like Rinku? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 21:09, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- If one of the two entries is clearly the primary meaning, then it doesn't make sense to have a dab page (hatnotes work better). But what about when neither of the two is obviously primary? As I read it, the current guidance does not discourage the creation of a dab page in this situation. Though it is still possible to avoid the dab page, if we use hatnotes and make the topic redirect to one or other (randomly chosen?) of the two. Is it spelt out anywhere which method to use? If not then it probably should be. (I support the change by the way.)--Kotniski (talk) 09:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, that is correct. If neither is the primary topic for the term then a disambiguation page may be the best option. The guideline should not prohibit disambiguation pages with only two entries, although it should discourage them where an alternative method of disambiguating is available. If there is a way to disambiguate one of the titles without introducing artificiality merely for the sake of disambiguating, then it would be better to use hatnotes to cross-reference them. And there may also be cases were both terms are located at other titles, but either could be referred to by another term. In such a case, if one is primary, the term would redirect and a hatnote can distiguish. But with redirects, it can get a little messy if the term being disambiguated are only minor aspects of the target articles. That is, it might be clearer to simply have the term be a disambiguation page, rather than having a potentially confusing hatnote (e.g., this page is about X, but Y redirects here; for another sense of Y, see Z). Also, the page is harmless and if there is a need to link to the disambiguation page, such as from the see also section of another disambiguation page, the page may even have limited utility or similarly, if additional uses are later found, there is already a place to start adding them. I guess there is a need to balance the need to avoid creating unnecessary disambiguation pages with avoiding giving another rationale for deletionist pogroms. older ≠ wiser 13:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- I designed my suggested wording with the intention of leaving the door open for variation if warranted; after all, the MOS is only a guideline, and WP:IAR is always an option. If the more likely targeted article can't be determined, I'm fine with leaving it as a dab page. Propaniac (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, that is correct. If neither is the primary topic for the term then a disambiguation page may be the best option. The guideline should not prohibit disambiguation pages with only two entries, although it should discourage them where an alternative method of disambiguating is available. If there is a way to disambiguate one of the titles without introducing artificiality merely for the sake of disambiguating, then it would be better to use hatnotes to cross-reference them. And there may also be cases were both terms are located at other titles, but either could be referred to by another term. In such a case, if one is primary, the term would redirect and a hatnote can distiguish. But with redirects, it can get a little messy if the term being disambiguated are only minor aspects of the target articles. That is, it might be clearer to simply have the term be a disambiguation page, rather than having a potentially confusing hatnote (e.g., this page is about X, but Y redirects here; for another sense of Y, see Z). Also, the page is harmless and if there is a need to link to the disambiguation page, such as from the see also section of another disambiguation page, the page may even have limited utility or similarly, if additional uses are later found, there is already a place to start adding them. I guess there is a need to balance the need to avoid creating unnecessary disambiguation pages with avoiding giving another rationale for deletionist pogroms. older ≠ wiser 13:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- If one of the two entries is clearly the primary meaning, then it doesn't make sense to have a dab page (hatnotes work better). But what about when neither of the two is obviously primary? As I read it, the current guidance does not discourage the creation of a dab page in this situation. Though it is still possible to avoid the dab page, if we use hatnotes and make the topic redirect to one or other (randomly chosen?) of the two. Is it spelt out anywhere which method to use? If not then it probably should be. (I support the change by the way.)--Kotniski (talk) 09:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
"Problems"?
This edit does not make sense to me. How is it controversial? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 22:43, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- I think JHJ is trying to avoid editors using that particular example as a justification for making unecessary and potentially annoying little edits to match the precise format "Rock(s)" in a way the guidelines don't intend ... but no doubt he will speak for himself. Abtract (talk) 23:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- If anything both examples should be listed on WP:PIPING, as was agreed for the introductory lines section. Alas, let's hear what J has to say. Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 23:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sesshomaru, please stop making trouble here. WP:PIPING does not need to restate the rest of the manual of style; its example should illustrate the guideline on piping and conform to (but not exhaustively illustrate) the rest of the guidelines. Since you have continued to use the phrasing there to make disruptive edits despite the discussion at WT:MOSDAB#Introductory line and the changes to WP:MOSDAB#Introductory line, it would seem that the best way to defuse the problem woud be to remove the temptation from WP:PIPING. Could someone still active on the dab project (besides Abtract) please remake the change if you agree? -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:41, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- I do agree and will remake the change. I believe JHunter is right. Since this section is an illustration of piping, not intro lines, the example ought to be simple and transparent, and not introduce options unrelated to the issue of piping. It certainly should not be used as a rationale for the format of intro lines. For the record, Sesshomaru added this format to the piping guidelines with no discussion on July 26 (17 days ago) and then went on to suggest that it be the only acceptable format for introductory lines. I don't know if there is really consensus here for Sesshomaru's change (probably because it seems too trivial for editors to weigh in on), but it seems to me that it should stand the way it was before July 26 until a new consensus is reached. SlackerMom (talk) 12:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- In an attempt to help us through this little problem, I suggest we find an example (other than Rock) that doesn't need either a plural or an alternative spelling ... as a suggestion look at my proposed new wording (as amended by User:Propaniac for the "Piping" section above. Abtract (talk) 13:19, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Appears that the consensus here was that we use both words, so "Bang(s) may refer to:" can't do. Should the guideline be changed to reflect that? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:34, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- No, Sess, you keep missing it. The consensus was that BOTH ways should be allowed in order to avoid trivial edits. Why do you keep trying to force us to edit the guidelines down to only ONE way? SlackerMom (talk) 19:49, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe because I don't understand it? And how does one decide which layout will be selected? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Just use EITHER ONE - it's up to YOU! Your choice! We're trying to leave it up to the preference of the editors because the consensus is that it DOESN'T MATTER. Use the one you like, and allow other editors do the same without running around behind them reverting and changing their edits. SlackerMom (talk) 20:24, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Then why'd you perform that edit? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 20:40, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm guessing that she views BAT in a different light to Bat where she also has edited but left the Bat(s) format intact. Arguably, "Bat(s)" makes more sense because it is a singular/plural variant whereas "BAT or BATS" might make more sense because it is just two different, but closely connected, initialisations. That would be my rationale, though I wouldn't necessarily change one to the other. I wonder how good my guess is. Abtract (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry, didn't mean to let this go unanswered. I haven't been watching for a few days. I made the edit which you questioned out of pique at your reversion. My apologies. Abtract gave me more credit than I was due. SlackerMom (talk) 21:31, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm guessing that she views BAT in a different light to Bat where she also has edited but left the Bat(s) format intact. Arguably, "Bat(s)" makes more sense because it is a singular/plural variant whereas "BAT or BATS" might make more sense because it is just two different, but closely connected, initialisations. That would be my rationale, though I wouldn't necessarily change one to the other. I wonder how good my guess is. Abtract (talk) 20:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
Individual entries
I don't think this undiscussed change was helpful. It makes the other examples look redundant. Thoughts? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 22:10, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
- The previous example repeated the word "song" which was in conflict with "keep description to a minimum" a few lines below the example. Readers do not need repetition to help them find the right article. The change clarifes what I consider to be best practice. Abtract (talk) 06:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Acronyms and their place on disambigs
I know I'm not the only one on Wiki who uses acronyms or abbreviations to navigate Wikipedia quicker; for instance: 2.5 Men=Two and a Half Men the TV series. It's just faster than typing out the full URL. Well, some users who will remain nameless are enforcing policy to the letter (or at least, that is their excuse). So far there's no policy in regards to something like this, so I move that abbreviated links (in my case, Centaurs in astrology should be allowed to be listed on the CIA disambiguation page) to articles be allowed to stay on disambiguation pages. I mean, it's not like we're listing them on the main articles. --IdLoveOne (talk) 20:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- Why would it need to be mentioned on the dab page if it is used as a shortcut direct to the specific article? Abtract (talk) 20:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- Well, in this case you can see on the disambiguation page that there are at least a couple dozen articles that share the same acronym, but someone decided that the Central Intelligence Agency is the one that gets the redirect from CIA and anything else with the same acronym has to settle for the disambiguation page. Why shouldn't any article that shares the acronym be allowed to be listed? --IdLoveOne (talk) 21:03, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
(EC) I am the "nameless" editor, and I simply removed two entries from CIA (disambiguation) because the term "CIA" wasn't used in their articles, nor are they commonly known as "CIA". I'm not trying to "enforce policy" and I won't edit war over one link on a dab page, but am I wrong in assuming that this is common practice when editing dab pages? I plan to do the same thing when I get around to cleaning up CC and MIC, by the way. SlackerMom (talk) 21:52, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm just saying, it doesn't make sense. I mean, I wouldn't be giving you problems if there was clearer policy and if I actually understood your reason for removing the Centaurs page. When I first went to the disambig page it looked like you'd specifically and singularly removed that one. That and the reasons I just mentioned made it seem like vandalism (perhaps against the opinion that astrology is actually a useful practice; not NPOV). --IdLoveOne (talk) 22:26, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
- Indeed all entries that do not mention the term being disambiguted on the target article will be specifically removed. If you have reason for supposing that CIA is a legitimate abbreviation for Centaurs in astrology and you can cite published references for that supposition, then the place to put it is in the article itelf ... then and only then would it be a suitable entry on the dab page. Abtract (talk) 23:35, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
I fully agree with SlackerMom and Abstract. There was also a long drawn-out discussion at HP (disambiguation) some time ago, which (kind of) concluded with what Abstract just said above. I find this approach reasonable. – sgeureka t•c 07:06, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- Is there any place in the guidelines that says anything to this effect? Although I know it is a commonly agreed upon practice among dab page editors, I have had trouble explaining it before to those who don't work with dab pages all the time. Is this something we should add to MOSDAB somewhere, or is it better left alone? SlackerMom (talk) 12:15, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- IMO, any attempt at codifying things to too fine a precision only results in more wiki-lawyering disputes. While I agree with the general sense of what others have said above, I think this statement from Abstract goes too far: all entries that do not mention the term being disambiguted on the target article will be specifically removed -- there are many cases where the initialism is fairly obvious and there is no mention in the article and there is no real reason to insist that the initialism be specifically identified in the article. For example, on the page in question above, CIA (disambiguation), a few entries make no explicit description of the initialism, such as Courtauld Institute of Art, Cumbria Institute of the Arts, Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, Calgary International Airport, Changi International Airport, Cardiff International Airport, Cairo International Airport -- should all of these uses also be removed from the page? I think it would be fair to say that in more of these cases, the initialism is fairly obvious and it would likely not be very difficult to find uses in published sources. I'd suggest that where the usage is questionable, editors can request some evidence to warrant inclusion. older ≠ wiser 12:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- As often seems to be the case, you are of course right. Where they are pretty obvious or unchallenged then initialisms should be included even if not mentioned specifically in the article. I was in grave danger of falling into the "let's have rules dictating every little nuance" trap and forgetting the "we are here to help readers" adage ... silly me. Abtract (talk) 15:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, all. Of course I agree, since I left all those "obvious" links on CIA (disambiguation) to begin with. Centaurs in astrology doesn't seem an obvious inclusion to me, since it's not the name of something. I'm certainly not trying to be POV about it. I just doubt anyone would ever type in "CIA" and expect to go there. SlackerMom (talk) 16:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- No, I quite agree with you SlackerMom regarding the removal of Centaurs in astrology and Common iliac artery from the CIA (disambiguation) -- both are questionable and it is not at all unreasonable to request some evidence from published sources reagarding usage as the initialism. older ≠ wiser 01:56, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks, all. Of course I agree, since I left all those "obvious" links on CIA (disambiguation) to begin with. Centaurs in astrology doesn't seem an obvious inclusion to me, since it's not the name of something. I'm certainly not trying to be POV about it. I just doubt anyone would ever type in "CIA" and expect to go there. SlackerMom (talk) 16:22, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- IMO, any attempt at codifying things to too fine a precision only results in more wiki-lawyering disputes. While I agree with the general sense of what others have said above, I think this statement from Abstract goes too far: all entries that do not mention the term being disambiguted on the target article will be specifically removed -- there are many cases where the initialism is fairly obvious and there is no mention in the article and there is no real reason to insist that the initialism be specifically identified in the article. For example, on the page in question above, CIA (disambiguation), a few entries make no explicit description of the initialism, such as Courtauld Institute of Art, Cumbria Institute of the Arts, Chartered Institute of Arbitrators, Calgary International Airport, Changi International Airport, Cardiff International Airport, Cairo International Airport -- should all of these uses also be removed from the page? I think it would be fair to say that in more of these cases, the initialism is fairly obvious and it would likely not be very difficult to find uses in published sources. I'd suggest that where the usage is questionable, editors can request some evidence to warrant inclusion. older ≠ wiser 12:50, 20 August 2008 (UTC)
- I guess what disturbs me about this is that there is a requirement for us to add our own impressions as to what is reasonable. Since we aren't citable - indeed, our opinions are specifically prohibited - this evaluation seems wrong. If we have a solid, pure search for the term, we can use it as a dab term. If not, we don't. That seems common sense. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I feel like you may have given up common sense for a "tyranny of the Google". You're fighting over the color of the bike shed by contributing to heated disputes on such a small page as JTR. I doubt that WP was in imminent danger of being overrun by Jack the Ripper fans. And our opinions are used to help settle all sorts of differences about how dab pages should look and work - they are certainly not prohibited in that regard. Where would your lengthy talk page contributions be if they were? SlackerMom (talk) 18:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, common sense isn't that common, SlackerMom. I am not putting too much faith in Google, which is why I double-checked the veracity of the search results with five other search engines. All of them returned proportionally identical results. JTR as a dab term for Jack the Ripper is not a common term outside conversational discussion in Ripper-specific websites and forums. As for the wiki being overrun by JTR fans, it bears noting that the ones initially (and doggedly) arguing for its inclusion are Ripper fans. We don't cater to a small group of contributors with an agenda; the regular user is who we are supposed to write for, not the specialist. Having information that we can prove is encyclopedic requires us to use - in the case of dab pages - is a solid referential history in searches. As five engines disagree that JTR refers to Jack the Ripper, we cannot impose our personal preference. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Well, I feel like you may have given up common sense for a "tyranny of the Google". You're fighting over the color of the bike shed by contributing to heated disputes on such a small page as JTR. I doubt that WP was in imminent danger of being overrun by Jack the Ripper fans. And our opinions are used to help settle all sorts of differences about how dab pages should look and work - they are certainly not prohibited in that regard. Where would your lengthy talk page contributions be if they were? SlackerMom (talk) 18:17, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I've never edited the Jack the Ripper page and unlike you am not a hardcore fan and editor of the subject - but the DAB does reflect a wider use of the term.[3]. Several link to museums, books, movie productions and comics when using the term. And that's just the first page...75.57.160.195 (talk) 19:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- As has been pointed out elsewhere, the anon's search (which adds supplementary terms to JTR) is flawed, and represents OR in that it preferentially searches for a term using criteria preferential to a connection. JTR by itself returns less than a dozen hits in millions, and is therefore not notable.
- As well, it has been pointed out elsewhere that the only reason you even visited JTR was while stalking my edits, for which you have been blocked before. Maybe you can go away now, before we block this IP as well. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 19:47, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Your claim is not logical. JTR by itself cannot return less than a dozen hits in a million. The filtered search JTR+Eastend is a subset of JTR. Therefore JTR would return all of the 5,000 hits in the subset plus all other JTR hits. It just is. The filtered subset[[4]] is an accurate representation of it's usage and includes museums, books, movie productions and comics on the subject of Jack the Ripper all within the first page. For my response to your continued baiting[5] please see the other DAB forum you've opened. Peace75.57.160.195 (talk) 20:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Please ask someone to explain search protocol to you, anon. I am done bantering with my stalker. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 20:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Your claim is not logical. JTR by itself cannot return less than a dozen hits in a million. The filtered search JTR+Eastend is a subset of JTR. Therefore JTR would return all of the 5,000 hits in the subset plus all other JTR hits. It just is. The filtered subset[[4]] is an accurate representation of it's usage and includes museums, books, movie productions and comics on the subject of Jack the Ripper all within the first page. For my response to your continued baiting[5] please see the other DAB forum you've opened. Peace75.57.160.195 (talk) 20:00, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- I guess what disturbs me about this is that there is a requirement for us to add our own impressions as to what is reasonable. Since we aren't citable - indeed, our opinions are specifically prohibited - this evaluation seems wrong. If we have a solid, pure search for the term, we can use it as a dab term. If not, we don't. That seems common sense. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 18:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
- Your attacks on me are interesting considering that I've never edited the main page and have expressed no opinion as to how the link should be listed. My only opinion, ever, has been a civil discussion on the Talk page in support of inclusion. This is wholly in agreement with your position[6] also in support of inclusion.. A casual reader might assume we were engaged in an edit war given the tone of your remarks here.75.57.160.195 (talk) 22:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC)
Magic8ball says no. JTR meaning - Acronym Attic
Magic8ball2 says Google has heard of, but not notable. JTR - acronymfinder.com
We all wish Dreamguy would learn to use {{Find}}. And to stop gaming the system for his obsessively murder-centered ends. (Doesn't he have a COI, being a published author about such?) And being such an arrogant deletionist everywhere else he goes. (Seriously, check his contribs. dick dick dick dick dick). He really does make it excessively tiresome to be here sometimes. Far more harm to the project than good, in MANY editors opinions. (and he thinks he's being helpful, and very very occasionally is, which is what makes the whole thing so painful) Kumquat75 (talk) 05:01, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- "We all wish that"... "MANY editors opinion" ... really? You've only made three edits in your life on this site and all three of them are to oppose my edits on a couple of unrelated topics. Who are you to talk about "we" and what "many" editors think? Looks like we likely have yet another sockpuppet being used to furhter a conflict and pretend to have more people in support of a position that really exist. Your comments here are also quite extreme violations of WP:NPA. I'd suggest an admin block this account, because this person is clearly not a new member, clearly not here to work on an encyclopedia, and is clearly solely here to try to further conflict. DreamGuy (talk) 15:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sigh. As a long time user, I am guessing you kow precisely where to submit a request to an admin regarding suspected sock, right? I ask bc it would seem awfully clear that this page doesn't appear to be that place. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- Sigh. your a troll that makes wiki worthless and nobody wants to put up with this anymore
- Sigh. As a long time user, I am guessing you kow precisely where to submit a request to an admin regarding suspected sock, right? I ask bc it would seem awfully clear that this page doesn't appear to be that place. - Arcayne (cast a spell) 06:00, 23 August 2008 (UTC)
- "We all wish that"... "MANY editors opinion" ... really? You've only made three edits in your life on this site and all three of them are to oppose my edits on a couple of unrelated topics. Who are you to talk about "we" and what "many" editors think? Looks like we likely have yet another sockpuppet being used to furhter a conflict and pretend to have more people in support of a position that really exist. Your comments here are also quite extreme violations of WP:NPA. I'd suggest an admin block this account, because this person is clearly not a new member, clearly not here to work on an encyclopedia, and is clearly solely here to try to further conflict. DreamGuy (talk) 15:44, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Other views would be helpful ... in particular the choice of primary topic (not my strongest point). Abtract (talk) 17:53, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
- There is no primary topic in the MOSDAB sense for either term. However, there is no prohibition against including a brief definition of the common sense of the terms in the opening line. older ≠ wiser 18:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)
Arc and ARC again
Arc begins "Arc or ARC may refer to:", which seems fine to me. But people are going to wonder if this contradicts the MOS, which says that it is not necessary to write out all variations of spelling, and then gives examples where one spelling is said to be preferable over multiple spellings. Anyone mind if I add the Arc example to make it clear that a small number (usually just 2?) of alternatives is sometimes acceptable?--Kotniski (talk) 08:51, 23 August 2008 (UTC)