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:::::::::And I'm trying to understand the 'resistance' to using ''British'' for ''all'' British biographies. Keeping in mind that ''English, Northern Irish, Welsh and Scottish'' are used (and sourced), the cry that ''British'' usage is offensive is a lame excuse IMHO. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] 18:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC) |
:::::::::And I'm trying to understand the 'resistance' to using ''British'' for ''all'' British biographies. Keeping in mind that ''English, Northern Irish, Welsh and Scottish'' are used (and sourced), the cry that ''British'' usage is offensive is a lame excuse IMHO. [[User:GoodDay|GoodDay]] 18:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC) |
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:::::::::: I certainly agree, which is why it is pointless to even discuss this further. Simple fact is that we have a lot of emotional wrecks and POV-pushers on Wikipedia in relation to this subject and generally they must be included in any consensus. It's an absolutely ridiculous position, which leads to countless edit wars and other problems, but at the moment the absence of a solution is the only way we can move forward. |
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:::::::::: I will never give support to any guideline which gives an Anglo/Britannocentric view of the constituent countries of the UK and as such I will never back any guidelines which institute special treatment for Scottish, English, Welsh and Northern Irish identities. Plenty will not support use of the word British except where absolutely necessary. It's not something which you, or any of us, will ever solve. --[[User:Breadandcheese|Breadandcheese]] 18:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 18:56, 13 November 2007
Honorific prefixes No.2
This guideline is absurd and should be reversed. It is relevant almost only to people in UK who are not peers. Peers who are members of the Privy Council are described in the first line as Peter Rabbit, Lord Rabbit of Garden, PC, MBE. But before he was elevated to the peerage he was described as Rt Hon Peter Rabbit, MP, MBE. Rt Hon as a prefix is instead of the post-nominal PC which is only used by peers. Yet this guideline quite wrongly does not even allow him to be described as Peter Rabbit, PC, MP, MBE (which is worse than Rt Hon and not used but is better than omitting this important recognition by the society in which he lives). - Kittybrewster 22:47, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse it. - Kittybrewster 22:52, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse, as above. It is not correct form for post-nominal PC to be used for commoners. The way of expressing it should be via Rt. Hon. Peter Rabbit should, therefore, be known as the Rt. Hon. for clarity purposes.--Couter-revolutionary 23:08, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse so that such offices can be shown correctly. --Ibagli (Talk) 23:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse. I agree with Kittybrewster, Couter-revolutionary and Ibagli. Proteus (Talk) 23:17, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse: all proper encyclopaedias use Correct Form. 81.155.155.186 09:17, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. Where in the guideline does it say that PC cannot be used as a postnom? Nowhere that I can see. In addition, I have seen a lot of claims that PC is incorrect for commoners, but no proof. It is used in Who's Who and other publications. I have provided an example of where it has been used in an official government publication (on the order of service for Ernest Bevin's official memorial service, where he is described as "Ernest Bevin, PC"). So that's two unsubstantiated claims in one proposal! -- Necrothesp 10:04, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reply Quote from Debrett's Correct Form: "'The Rt Hon' is always placed before the name both in formal and social usage. There is no need to add the letters P.C. after the name, since 'The Rt. Hon.' is sufficient indication of membership of the Privy Council." I am therefore arguing for The Rt Hon and against PC. Quote from The Correct Guide to Letter Writing; Superscription of the envelope "The Rt Hon ------ ------, P.C." - Kittybrewster 10:15, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- All that says is that it is not necessary to add PC if Rt Hon is used. What it does not say is that PC is incorrect. We do not use honorofics on Wikipedia, plain and simple. What we would do when addressing a letter and what we do here are two different things. If it was so wrong to omit Rt Hon would the government really have done so on Ernest Bevin's memorial service programme? Somehow, I think not. -- Necrothesp 11:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Why does Wiki. not use them? Is there any reason? I doubt Bevin cared very much, or that the government composed the memorial service programme for that matter!--Couter-revolutionary 11:30, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- "'The Rt Hon' is always placed before the name both in formal and social usage" - Kittybrewster 11:26, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Sir Winston Churchill’s Memorial Programme (a state funeral) correctly describes him as The Rt Hon Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, KG, OM, CH so I think Necrothesp is arguing WP:IDONTLIKEIT - Kittybrewster 11:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Please don't make assumptions as to what I like and do not like. I'm a firm supporter of the use of honorifics in most circumstances. But I do not believe they are necessary on Wikipedia (although I have argued for the use of titles on many occasions) and if we make an exception for Rt Hon then there will be calls for the addition of "Honorables" and other honorifics to every tom, dick and harry to whom they're granted in other countries (where "the honorable" is often used merely as an indicator that the individual has some vaguely official office). I find it interesting that you are happy to take Churchill's programme as proof of the validity of your own point of view and disregard Bevin's as proof of mine! Note that I have never said that use of "Rt Hon" is incorrect - it most certainly isn't - but only that the use of "PC" is also acceptable. And I believe that it is the better option here. -- Necrothesp 13:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- I think Kitty. was pointing out Churchill's was a state funeral, therefore definitely official.--Couter-revolutionary 13:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- As I said, I'm not arguing that Rt Hon is incorrect in any case. Of course it's correct. My argument is that the use of "PC" is also perfectly correct, that claims it isn't have not been substantiated in any way (and indeed, I have provided an example of its usage on a government document), and that it is preferable here for the reasons I have stated. -- Necrothesp 13:34, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- I think Kitty. was pointing out Churchill's was a state funeral, therefore definitely official.--Couter-revolutionary 13:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Please don't make assumptions as to what I like and do not like. I'm a firm supporter of the use of honorifics in most circumstances. But I do not believe they are necessary on Wikipedia (although I have argued for the use of titles on many occasions) and if we make an exception for Rt Hon then there will be calls for the addition of "Honorables" and other honorifics to every tom, dick and harry to whom they're granted in other countries (where "the honorable" is often used merely as an indicator that the individual has some vaguely official office). I find it interesting that you are happy to take Churchill's programme as proof of the validity of your own point of view and disregard Bevin's as proof of mine! Note that I have never said that use of "Rt Hon" is incorrect - it most certainly isn't - but only that the use of "PC" is also acceptable. And I believe that it is the better option here. -- Necrothesp 13:08, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Sir Winston Churchill’s Memorial Programme (a state funeral) correctly describes him as The Rt Hon Sir Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill, KG, OM, CH so I think Necrothesp is arguing WP:IDONTLIKEIT - Kittybrewster 11:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- All that says is that it is not necessary to add PC if Rt Hon is used. What it does not say is that PC is incorrect. We do not use honorofics on Wikipedia, plain and simple. What we would do when addressing a letter and what we do here are two different things. If it was so wrong to omit Rt Hon would the government really have done so on Ernest Bevin's memorial service programme? Somehow, I think not. -- Necrothesp 11:22, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse if Wikipedia is to have credibility. We should be insisting upon what is correct, not whatever we like or approve/disapprove of. David Lauder 10:23, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse so that non-noble Privy Councillors are "The Right Honourable". This is clearly an exceptional situation to the general situation of disliking honorific prefixes. Sam Blacketer 10:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep I do believe that having The Right Honourable before all members of the Privy Council is unnecessary and unsightly, and I don't think most encloypedias put it before people's names like that. Wikipedia is not Debretts, and I think that having a simple "PC" after the persons name is quite sufficient. Kittybrewster quotes that it is always used in "formal and social usage", maybe (although I could dispute the social) but Wikipedia is not formal or social, it is an encloyopedia. --Berks105 11:42, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- Keep due to the arguments of Berks105 and Necrothesp ~~ Phoe talk 21:59, 26 February 2007 (UTC) ~~
- Reverse - I agree with the remarks on this page which refer to Correct Form. It is not for hostile editors to deny, via Wiki, the proper forms of address. Chelsea Tory 08:19, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- Hostile to what? Nobody's denying anything. I suggest you read the comments above. -- Necrothesp 11:17, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse, I guess, although I don't think it's a big deal. It seems weird that we indicate in the header when peers are members of the privy council, but not when commoners are, and it's more or less wrong (or, at least, really odd) to add "PC" as a postnominal for commoners. john k 21:40, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep, in agreement with the comments that both Necrothesp and Berks105 made. Also please note that a number of editors that have !voted to "Reverse it" have been invloved in canvassing and have acted in "lock step" on a number of AfD's and !votes, as outlined by an administrator comment here--Vintagekits 23:05, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse - I never understood how this came to be policy in the first place. --New Progressive 11:58, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
Canvassing of this discussion
Kittybrewster has posted notices on 13 user pages drawing attention to this debate. [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] This is an unacceptable way of trying to influence the outcome. The users are Ibagli, Masalai, Gibnews, Weggie, Jcuk, JulesH, AnnabelBuxton, Just_H, Craigy144, Eamon76, Thesocialistesq, Pc1dmn, JRawle. They are not to blame, but actions of this kind are likely to upset fair means of working towards consensus. Canvassing done 21:10, 13 March 2007 – 22:18, 13 March 2007 (UTC) Tyrenius 00:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep One reason we added this, IIRC, is that thousands of U.S. politicians would have "honorable" attached to their names. This rule is also needed to maintain uniform treatment for all honorific titles. -Will Beback · † · 21:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment Then some kind of distinction should be made. In the UK, Rt. Hon. (at least when used to refer to a Privy Counsellor) is used to distinguish a select class of politicians who are entitled to perform a number of functions, including sitting as the supreme court for a number of overseas British territories. The title is not merely an honorific, but representative of actual function. I would suggest that this may be a sensible line to draw across the use of such prefixes. JulesH 23:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
- No, they don't sit as the supreme court for the overseas territories. That process is often referred to as "the Privy Council" but it is actually only the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council that sits -- these people are judges and, I think, the same people in practice as the Law Lords. That excludes the vast majority of members of the Privy Council. Woblosch 22:55, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse, in accordance with JulesH's comment and Correct Form. Laura1822 00:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse- per Kitty's arguments. Astrotrain 09:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep per Berks105 and Will Beback. A postnominal PC coveys all the necessary information in a more concise form, and avoids endless explanations over the precise distinction between the "Rt. Honourable" PC members and the "honorable" US Congressmen. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Reverse, in accordance with 'Correct Form' and usual practice. Bluewave 13:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Comment - It may be correct for 'Correct Form', but this is an encyclopedia, not a formal document or similar. And I disagree with ususal practice, The Right Honourable is not normally used, you never see it in newspapers, history books, etc etc when refering to a person. --Berks105 14:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Keep. We don't want to go back to having all honorific prefixes, so we shouldn't make an exception for this one. The reason peers use PC is because they are automatically entitled to Rt Hon simply for being a peer. As we don't include prefixes for peers, I don't actually see a reason for listing PC at all. We don't list all postnominals, and there's no reason for all honours and achievements to be described in first line. It can be mentioned in the body, in the image caption or in a later "Titles from birth" section. So to summarise: keep this guideline, and maybe consider stopping using "PC" for peers. JRawle (Talk) 14:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but what is this about? I got a message on my talk page. Just Heditor review 04:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Discussion
The section now reads:
- Styles and honorifics which are derived from political activities, including but not limited to The Right Honourable for being a Member of the Privy Council, should not be included in the text inline but may be legitimately discussed in the article proper.
Is the intent to delete the entire section? Or is to make this change:
- Styles and honorifics..., with the sole exclusion of 'The Right Honourable'...
JulesH seems to be arguing for the latter but I'm not sure exactly what Kittybrewster is proposing.-Will Beback · † · 10:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Response. That would be a great improvement on the status quo. PC as a postnominal for a commoner is just plain wrong. - Kittybrewster 12:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Response I don't think it is plain wrong. Kittybrewster and others must remember this is an encylopedia and not a peerage website, or a formal document. The Right Honourable is not normally used, it is only really used in the House of Commons, and on formal documents or invitations etc. It is not used in other encylopedias, or books etc. --Berks105 14:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- "The Right Honourable" is normally used when giving someone's formal name. If the Prime Minister gave a ministerial broadcast he would be introduced as "The Right Honourable Tony Blair, M.P.". In most biographical guides, it is used. No-one ever uses postnominal PC for non-noble Privy Councillors. I suspect the problem here largely derives from the fact that 'The Right Honourable' is a prefix and not a suffix, but in that, it is clearly an exception. Most honours are placed as abbreviated suffixes, but this one gives the holder an honorific prefix. We accept "Sir"/"Dame" and Peerage titles as prefixes inline. Sam Blacketer 14:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- It's more general than that, Question_Time_(TV_series) and many other shows certainly caption as you say and sometimes use the spoken form. Of course that's not decisive to the issue 86.134.78.14 15:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Deleting this section would be a poor idea. Time and again, people have argued over honorific prefixes; time and again, they've been excluded because they're NOT encyclopedic. I'm tired of seeing this come up continually. The answer is no, people shouldn't have honorifics. They're POV, they're not encyclopedic, and they make biography intros less consistant. Titanium Dragon 19:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Of course they are not POV. They are fact - like VC. The one is postnominal, the other is prenominal. As for being consistent and wrong, better to make an exception in this case.. - Kittybrewster 08:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- What is PoV is to say; "people shouldn't have honorifics" --Counter-revolutionary 10:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I am bemused to see that this discussion is apparently based on the usage recommended in Debretts. More than 20 year ago, I had occasion to write to a few hundred MPs. Seeking advice on how to address them, a colleague checked Debrett's, so we sent off the letters addressed as recommended ... and I was later teased about it by parliamentary staff who found the styles comically antiquated. I have yet to find any MP who is the slightest bit concerned about not being addressed as "The Right Honourable", but plenty who are embarrassed to have that degree of formality in anything except highly formal situations (such as in the chamber of the Commons). Debrett's may well be accurately recording the formal conventions, but actual usage has moved on: or good or ill, Britain has become a much less formal country, where "correct" forms of address are rarely used.
I have just checked the Dictionary of National Biography. Here are a the opening words from a few articles on MPs:
- Thatcher, Sir Denis, first baronet (1915–2003), businessman and ...
- Churchill, Sir Winston Leonard Spencer (1874–1965), prime minister ...
- Attlee, Clement Richard, first Earl Attlee (1883–1967), prime minister,
... and I can't find any entry where DNB uses the honorific.
If such a reputable publication as the DNB doesn't use "Rt. Hon", why should wikipedia feel obliged to do so? And if Who's Who use the postnomial PC, I don't see how it makes wikipedia look silly to use it too. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:38, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
- Denis Thatcher was neither an MP nor a Privy Councillor. - Kittybrewster (talk) 23:21, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- And Winston Churchill was knighted, and Attlee raised to the peerage- so the lack of Rt. Hon. is entirely understandable. Gabrielthursday 22:52, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Common name versus fullname for disambguation
- Robert Smith (editor)
- Robert Smith (baseball)
- Robert Smith (musician)
Is it proper to make them into their full name to aid diambiguation, even though its not their most common name: Robert Smith (editor) --> Robert Edward Smith. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 16:18, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- I think it is more logical to use a full name if it is known (and if they had more than two names, of course), but only if it is necessary for disambiguation. At the very least, a redirect should be made from their full name. -- Necrothesp 17:50, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
- I certainly agree that a redirect from the full name is needed, and I try to always provide it, regardless of whether the article title includes a disambiguator. However, I think that the current formula of "name best known as"+(disambiguator if needed) is better than the full name, because it sticks most closely to the convention of "name best known as". If, for example, there were several other equally notable people called Tony Benn and we therefore needed to disambiguate them all, then "Tony Benn (politician)" is much more intuitive than "Anthony Neil Wedgwood Benn" or "Tony Neil Benn" or "Tony Neil Wedgwood Benn". --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
- comment I have no idea what this is about really, having just recieved a link (without so much as a message) to it on my talk page. However, looking briefly at the arguments presented, I think we should most definately use Right Hon. for UK M.P.s, as it is the correct (if no longer the usual) term. Just because other encyclopædias no longer do so, I see no reason for Wikipedia to lower its standards. Jcuk 13:22, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Honorific prefixes
(Note that honorary knights and dames are not entitled to "Sir" or "Dame", only the post-nominal letters.) Example: "Dame Ellen Patricia MacArthur, DBE (born July 8, 1976) is an English sailor..." Is this just my being dim, or should that "Dame" in front of "Ellen Patricia MacArthur" disappear? Paul venter 22:30, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
- Why should it disappear? Dame Ellen isn't a honorary dame. --Berks105 09:45, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
4. The honorifics Sir and Dame should be included in the text inline for baronets, knights bachelor, and members of knightly orders whose rank grants them that dignity, provided that they do not hold a higher dignity, such as a peerage, which trumps that usage. No baronet should be shown with the postfix but without the prefix, e.g. John Smith, 17th Baronet is wrong, the correct style being Sir John Smith, 17th Baronet. (Note that honorary knights and dames are not entitled to "Sir" or "Dame", only the post-nominal letters.) Example: "Dame Ellen Patricia MacArthur, DBE (born 8 July 1976) is an English sailor..."
Then why use her as an example immediately after a statement about honorary knights and dames???? Paul venter 11:23, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
- The statement about honorary knights and dames is in brackets, whereas the example is not. Therefore the example clearly does not refer to the note in brackets (otherwise it too would be inside the brackets), but to the previous text not in brackets. The usage is perfectly correct. -- Necrothesp 01:59, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- Wouldn't the example be much better coming immediately after the text to which it refers, and the note about honorary dames and knight go last? -- JackofOz 00:26, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Uppercase "The" in TV show titles.
I have a question about the use of the uppercase 'The' when writing about the titles of TV shows, musical groups, or organisations. If these pages/links use the the uppercase article, are they right or wrong? I thank you. andreasegde 18:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
On TV: The Office The Apprentice, The Wire
Bands: The Who, The Band, The Libertines, The The, The Cure, The West Coast Pop Art Experimental Band, The Dandy Warhols, The Jam, The Knack, The La's, The Undertones,
Newspapers: The Independent, The Observer, The Lancet, The Sun, The Scotsman, The Stage, The Spectator, The Sunday Times (UK), The Wire magazine
External links: The Pension Service, The Highway Code, The Photographers' Gallery, The Womens Library, The Fat Duck, The Children's Society andreasegde 18:22, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- As far as newspapers are concerned, doesn't it depend on what the newspaper calls itself? For instance "The Times" and "The Guardian" include the "the" on their masthead, so it is part of their actual name, whereas the "Evening Standard" and the "Daily Mirror" don't, so I should have thought a capital T would be inappropriate in those cases. Woblosch 23:07, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
- This issue has been discussed at length in regards to the Beatles article/wikiproject. Based on input from professional print editors from the U.S. and U.K., the policy has been set to use the (lowercase) within the article text, except of course at the beginning of sentences. That's the way it's done in the vast majority of professional publications. (It seems to me any wikilinks should not include the the in such cases, but that's debatable.). I think Wikipedia needs an official policy on the issue. --emw 06:03, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Revoked/rescinded Knighthoods
There’s a discussion going on over at Talk:Roger Casement as to whether or not it’s appropriate to refer to him in the lead para as "Sir Roger Casement CMG", or just "Roger Casement". The discussion centres on the facts that he was knighted in 1911, but his knighthood and CMG were revoked in 1916 after being convicted of treason.
Some participants refer to a naming convention whereby the person’s highest bestowed title and postnominals should be used. Others are arguing that, if a title/postnominal that normally remains for life has been revoked, it becomes inappropriate to use them in the person’s full name and titles in the lead para; the text of the article will reveal both the knighthood/CMG and their revocation.
I declare my hand: I’m in the latter group.
Revocations of knightood are very rare, and are only done in the most extreme circumstances. The only ones I’m aware of apart from Casement are Anthony Blunt, Albert Henry and Terry Lewis (police commissioner). For this reason, and given that this issue seems never to have been discussed here before, it’s likely that no thought has ever been given to a guideline/policy about such cases.
The "Honorary prefixes" section (point 4) addresses the case where a knight later becomes a peer. It doesn’t address the case where the knighthood is revoked. One suggestion (admittedly favouring the position I support) would be to add the words highlighted below:
- The honorifics Sir and Dame should be included in the text inline for baronets, knights bachelor, and members of knightly orders whose rank grants them that dignity, provided that:
- they do not hold a higher dignity, such as a peerage, which trumps that usage, or
- the knighthood was not revoked/rescinded.
I’d appreciate some discussion of this, and some direction, so that we can have a consistent approach to these very unusual subjects and not have to recreate the wheel more often than is necessary.
There doesn't seem to be an article or category that lists all such cases. This should also be corrected. JackofOz 04:34, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
- According to this, there have only been 14 people since the 14th century to be stripped of a knightood. So, it's a small list, but sufficient to have a policy on how to refer to such people. JackofOz 05:19, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
Ethnicity in opening - Asimov example contradicts guidelines?
The guidelines on the opening paragraph say, "Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." But later in the article it gives the opening sentence on Isaac Asimov, saying in part, "was a Russian-born American Jewish author and biochemist". Doesn't the example contradict the guidelines, because Asimov's notability is irrelevant to the fact that he was Jewish? (Declaration of potential conflict of interest: this arose because the example is being used in a discussion at Talk:Samuel Reshevsky). Peter Ballard 02:02, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
p.s. Editors at Isaac Asimov seem to concur with me, because "Jewish" was removed from the article's lead sentence ago, except that it was re-inserted today as a side effect of the discussion at Talk:Samuel Reshevsky. Peter Ballard 04:04, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Lead names
My apologies if there has been a prior discussion on lead names that I missed out on. Has it become standard to put the subject's common name in quotations, i.e. Joseph "Joe" Smith, even if that common name is simply a general, English short form of the subject's first name? Because to be honest, Joseph "Joe" is unnecessary - ostensibly Joe is short for Joseph. It is also a universal understanding that Bob is Robert and Bill is William, and so forth - "Bill" is not unique to William Jefferson Clinton, neither is "Al" to Albert Gore, nor "Dick" to Richard Cheney. Only if the subject has an obscure nickname, like Craig "Speedy" Claxton does it make sense to put the nickname in quotations. At nearly 2 million articles, thousands of which are biographies, Christopher "Chris" and Edward "Ted" starts to look untidy - throw on middle names and you start to see my point. Why can't they all just be like Tony Blair. Jay(Talk) 00:55, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
- Strong support, should we do a clarification about this issue, telling to avoid Craig "Speedy" Claxton? Carlosguitar 13:04, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Honorific Prefixes (again...)
A few months ago, a TfD for Template:Infobox hrhstyles was withdrawn because it should have been discussed here first, apparently. So my question here is; why do we have this and other similar infoboxes, which are rather clear violations of WP:NOT a how-to guide (as they only say how you should, according to protocol, address these people). The titles used to address e.g. a member of a royal family contain no information whatsoever relevant to that individual, so I don't see why we should have these infoboxes (as an example, what would be lost except a how-to if we removed the infobox from Prince Laurent of Belgium?). Anyone has a convincing argument to keep these boxes? Fram 07:46, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- As I see it, this homonymic use of the phrase "how to", meaning "correct form of address", has nothing to do with the use of "how to" in WP:NOT (i.e. method or procedure for doing something). There are similar uses of the phrase "how to" in "how to pronounce", meaning "correct pronunciation, not "procedure for achieving a particular pronunciation". These are completely different meanings of the phrase "how to", having nothing in common with the "instruction manual" use, as in "How to drive a car", "How to build a bridge" etc. In my opinion, this is clear from the wording of WP:NOT, but perhaps the phrase "how-to" should be removed there. --Boson 18:28, 11 May 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see the distinction you make. We have an article about a car, but we don't explain how you should start it, change its cooling fluid, ... We have an article about a king, but we don't explain how you shuold address him. The words used to address a king (at least if you want to follow protocol, nothing says you can't just say "mister") are of no value in an article about that king, and gives us no information regarding that king whatsoever. It would be different if a king insisted on being called "God above all Gods" or somesuch, as that could be a good indication, an example, of his delusions of grandeur. But in that case, the information gives us more knowledge about what kind of person that king is / was. I fail to see how the general hrhstyle infobox gives us any more info or knowledge about the royal in question though. Fram 19:32, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
- When you talk about WP:NOT and "how to", I assume you are referring to the section about instruction manuals:
I interpret this to include advice and recommendations about how to produce something, acquire a skill, or achieve a result, especially by step-by-step instructions, as in the examples given at WP:NOT. I would not interpret details of forms of address as covered by this -- not any more than information about aliases, noms de plumes, etc. Just because you can use the phrase "how to" to describe something does not put it into the same category as a recipe or tutorial (where "how to" has a completely different meaning, i.e a series of instructions or recommendations aimed at achieving a purpose). Similarly, one could claim that including "Botanical name: Digitalis purpurea" in an infobox tells us how to refer to the common foxglove when observing scientific conventions, but that does not make it a "how-to" within the meaning of WP:NOT.--Boson 21:47, 12 May 2007 (UTC)Instruction manuals. While Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places, and things, Wikipedia articles should not include instructions, advice (legal, medical, or otherwise) or suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, video game guides, and recipes.
- A pseudonym, alternative (sientific) name, ... all are other, distinct names by which the subject is defined. "His royal highness" tells us absolutely nothing about any specific king, prince, ... but tells you how to address kings in general. What is the point of such a general infobox in a specific article? The pseudonyms used by a writer give us more information about that individual writer and thus belong in that article. The different ways to address a royal give us no information about that specific person and thus do not belong in that article. Fram 18:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- It helps to create an understanding of that individual's life, and their interactions with others. Tyrenius 04:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- A pseudonym, alternative (sientific) name, ... all are other, distinct names by which the subject is defined. "His royal highness" tells us absolutely nothing about any specific king, prince, ... but tells you how to address kings in general. What is the point of such a general infobox in a specific article? The pseudonyms used by a writer give us more information about that individual writer and thus belong in that article. The different ways to address a royal give us no information about that specific person and thus do not belong in that article. Fram 18:43, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
- When you talk about WP:NOT and "how to", I assume you are referring to the section about instruction manuals:
Subsequent use of names
Currently, it says to use the surname when talking about the subject later in the article. But, it does not list any exceptions for stage names (especially, singular names). Judging by Madonna (entertainer), Prince (musician), and Seal (musician), it looks like concensus is already to use the stage name. But, it would probably be good to put it into the MoS; unless there is still some debate to be had about it. I think that enforcing the surname rule would be more professional and fitting of an encyclopedia, but, I don't think we could pull it off here. Opinions? Neier 14:26, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. It would read in a very stilted way to use the surname for these people. Tyrenius 04:51, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- We should be using the surname-equivalent for people who go by a stage name. So, "Jolson" for Asa Yoelson and "Madonna" for Madonna Louise Ciccone Ritchie (since she goes by a single name), but "Presley" for Elvis Aaron Presley (since he did not go by a single-name stage name, he's just well-known).--Pharos 04:59, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- OK, I've added a few words to this effect in the 'Subsequent uses of names' section.--Pharos 05:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- My question isn't restricted to biographies, but I'm unsure where else to raise it (please inform me if there's a more suitable forum). In the currently topical article 2007 Greek forest fires, I deleted a repetition of the entire phrase Minister for Public Order, Vyron Polydoras in one section. In the subsequent discussion it was clear that the original author thought of Mr Polydoras' function in the same way that we would think of the title "Dr". Similarly, Costas Karamanlis is never mentioned in this article without the epithet "Prime Minister". Are there any clear WP guidelines on this matter? --NigelG (or Ndsg) | Talk 11:12, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
Pseudonyms
Just because the article doesn't explicitly state this; If say an author goes by a pseudonym that is more well known than their actual name then the article's name should be the pseudonym? I ask this because somebody keeps going around to some of these pages about authors and changing them from their well know (and published) pseudonyms (eg. Nora Roberts) to their less known 'real' names (eg. Eleanor Marie Robertson) which is even debatable because she's been married a few times so in reality it would be Eleanor Marie Robertson Smith Wilder, which the person has already created a redirect from. I personally believe that the article, and probably most of the others that the person has moved needs to be back at the more popular pseudonym but I want to me sure that I'm reading this right before doing anything. Thanks --ImmortalGoddezz 13:04, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
- That editor needs to read and understand Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), and to take note of the example about Pelé. I am no expert on Nora Roberts or her work, or her various legal names or pseudonyms, but just looking at the number of links to Nora Roberts from other articles leads me to believe that its choice for the original placement of the article was well reasoned. Unless editors who come along later can explain why they think that choice was an error, and can also convince others, they should not take it upon themselves to overturn it. In this case the move was disruptive. At the very least, the proposed move should have been discussed on the talk page, as this article appears to be highly visible. Chris the speller 16:09, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Spouses
Is it appropriate to add birth date and place information in a parenthetical when a spouse is mentioned in a biography?--Vbd (talk) 05:44, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
Changed birthname to real name
In "Pseudonyms, stage names and common names" I changed birth name to real name as it confuses people. Some people thought because of this formation that if the person has legally and officially changed his/her birth name, you should still state their birth name as the main name which, as we all understand not right. Northern 13:59, 10 June 2007 (UTC)
How to deal with lists within articles / notable achievements
A number of biographies, especially those of professional athletes, incorporate lists into the articles themselves. Is this stylistically appropriate? For example, Michael Jordan, there is a list of his accomplishments displayed in the article. However, that list also has its' own article here. Should athletes' pages incorporate awards in list format? I think that is a bad idea. If a person has such an extensive amount of accomplishments that warrant a list, then, like the MJ article, that information can be displayed in its' own article. If not, it would seem likely that the information should just be incorporated into the "meat" of the article. I think that this article needs to address what to do with "lists". Thoughts? //Tecmobowl 04:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- I don't see any problem with that article. It's a format in widespread use. It's easy to see the main achievements summarised in list form (much easier to see than if the same material was in the main text) and anyone wanting all the details can go to the separate list on its own article. Tyrenius 04:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- You mean you don't have a problem with the Michael Jordan page having a list of his information or you don't have a problem with his accomplishments having it's own article? //Tecmobowl
- Both. His page has a summary of (presumably) the most important achievements, while the complete list has its own article - for space reasons. Tyrenius 04:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Okay, well that sort of gets to my other point. I think that this Manual should account for what is and is not acceptable according to the "consensus". So what do we do? And are we sure that the consensus is that small lists of athletic accomplishments should be provided in text format when they have not been communicated in other places within the article? //Tecmobowl 05:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Both. His page has a summary of (presumably) the most important achievements, while the complete list has its own article - for space reasons. Tyrenius 04:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- You mean you don't have a problem with the Michael Jordan page having a list of his information or you don't have a problem with his accomplishments having it's own article? //Tecmobowl
Is it necessary to state Florence, Italy or Danzig, Poland?
Is it necessary to add the country every time a city is mentioned, to make sure nobody associates the wrong country with a city name, like Florence, Italy to make clear that Firenze in Italia is not a French city?
Or should the link to the city article be enough, especially in controversial cases like Danzig? Many historical bios related to the town were/are affected by edit warring, see the history of those on the List of famous born Gedanians, and also others who once worked [14] [15] or traveled there.
I'd say that a biography should focus on the person, not the history and political background of the place she/he was born, lived or died, and thus the country name should be left out especially if it leads to endless edit warring, like at this stub which has seen few content additions other than reverting, which was resumed after more than a year of peace [16] -- Matthead discuß! O 03:15, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
- As discussed elsewhere [17], I picked randomly an entry from Category:People from Warsaw and found that in Wanda Landowska ("was a Polish (later a naturalized French citizen) harpsichordist"), no country is mentioned next to a city name. It says "Landowska was born in Warsaw", not "Landowska was born in 1879 in Warsaw, Russian Empire". She later studied in Berlin and Paris, yet no mention of the countries involved (BTW, I choose not to comment on POV etc. in the last section). If Russian, German or French editors were as eager as some Poles, then Russia, Germany and France would have been written all over this bio (and many others). Next pick, Ludomir Rozycki, same story, a stub about a "Polish composer" born in 1884. Both articles somehow forget to state that those persons were born as subjects of the Russian Czar. Without further inquiry I dare to say that most other bios of people born in the same time and place probably are written in the same way, with the prominent Marie Curie being the exemption to this rule due to international attention. -- Matthead discuß! O 15:03, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think it's necessary to put the country every time a city is mentioned. This is an American convention (probably due to the number of American cities with the same name and therefore the necessity to list the state) that most non-Americans don't follow. For instance, most Europeans would never say Paris, France or London, England. It's just assumed that's where you're talking about unless you specify otherwise. -- Necrothesp 13:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think that this depends on context. I notice a lot of American biographical articles which don't specify the subject's nationality at all, just saying "John Smith (1901-1902) was a infant prodigy musician who…". This can be amended to "John Smith (1901-1902) was a infant prodigy Canadian musician who…", but isn't also acceptable to use the format "John Smith (1901-1902) was a infant prodigy musician from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada who…"? It's probably better as "John Smith (1901-1902) was a infant prodigy Canadian musician from Edmonton, Alberta, who…", but is tieing the country to city deprecated? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I always favour putting nationality in the first line if possible. "John Smith (1901–1902) was a Canadian infant prodigy musician." And in the next paragraph "He was born in Edmonton, Alberta." There does seem to be a bit of a presumption that the person is obviously American unless otherwise specified and that should definitely be deprecated. As for cities, I think the point is that some cities are just so famous they don't need further clarification. Even in America: why on earth do you need to say Chicago, Illinois? It should be obvious unless you specify another state that it's the very large city in Illinois you're referring to.
- I think that this depends on context. I notice a lot of American biographical articles which don't specify the subject's nationality at all, just saying "John Smith (1901-1902) was a infant prodigy musician who…". This can be amended to "John Smith (1901-1902) was a infant prodigy Canadian musician who…", but isn't also acceptable to use the format "John Smith (1901-1902) was a infant prodigy musician from Edmonton, Alberta, Canada who…"? It's probably better as "John Smith (1901-1902) was a infant prodigy Canadian musician from Edmonton, Alberta, who…", but is tieing the country to city deprecated? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I don't think it's necessary to put the country every time a city is mentioned. This is an American convention (probably due to the number of American cities with the same name and therefore the necessity to list the state) that most non-Americans don't follow. For instance, most Europeans would never say Paris, France or London, England. It's just assumed that's where you're talking about unless you specify otherwise. -- Necrothesp 13:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Mind you, I do recall some years ago (pre-Wikipedia) having an internet discussion with a Canadian when we were referring to "London" and it was some time before it dawned on us that I was talking about my capital city and he was talking about London, Ontario. It's just the natural presumption to most people, I think, that London is the capital of Britain; but obviously people from Ontario think differently! -- Necrothesp 15:16, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Dates of birth and death duplication.
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Dates of birth and death duplication. -- Jeandré, 2007-08-13t10:59z
- Please don't go there. This is the correct forum. The question posed by Jeandré was "If the biography has an infobox, can we have the dates in there only instead of duplicating it after the name?" Chris the speller 15:08, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Biography subheading
In biographical articles, is it ever appropriate to have a "Biography" subheading? If the whole article is a biography, such a subheading seems redundant - and makes me wonder what the rest of the article is all about. See: Merv Griffin for an example. I saw no reference to this on the project page or the Manual of Style. Rklawton 21:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Revisiting people normally known by their middle name
This is a followup to a brief and inconclusive discussion earlier in the year: see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (biographies)/Archive 5#People_normally_known_by_their_middle_name.
I had been using the format "(Samuel) James Smith" for people known by their middle names, but this format has just been removed (and reverted when I restored it) by another editor who insisted that the MoS deprecated this, which surprised me, because parenthesising the first name is a widely-used practice in British biographical articles, and I had seen nothing to deprecate it.
It turns out that a change to the MoS was made in this edit on 23 September 2006, and although here was a subsequent edit war over this and other changes, I can find no relevant discussion at the time -- the only discussion I can find is that in January 2007.
It seems to me that there the best solution here would be flexibility, allowing several different approaches, and that the parenthesised first name should be one of the options. Any thoughts? (I will notify participants in the previous discussions). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 12:36, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree with the idea of flexiblity - there should be one standard approach, having more than one would lead to many edit wars. I believe the current MoS is how it should be. Having brakcets looks messy and is unnecessary. People can tell from the article title and the article itself that the person was known by their middle name, we do not to put the first name in brackets to tell them. And if necessary, as "known as ..." after the birth-death brackets could be inserted. --UpDown 12:46, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Article titles can take many different formats, particularly with people who held one or more titles, and are frequently a poor guide to naming. The brackets are a simple and unobtrusive way of making it clear that there was an unused first name, without leaving the reader to infer it.
- This is the format used by Dictionary of National Biography. For example, the DNB article on Neville Chamberlain (subscription required) opens "Chamberlain, (Arthur) Neville (1869–1940), prime minister, was born …", which seems to me to be much less messy than the wikipedia article Neville Chamberlain, which opens "Arthur Neville Chamberlain (18 March 1869 – 9 November 1940), known as Neville Chamberlain, was a …".
- There are several other issues in the MOS which allow flexibility without causing edit wars, such as in the formatting of dates, where the guidance is that is more than one option is applicable, use that adopted by the first major contributor to the article. That guidance seems to work very well. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:05, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but there is no reason to use brackets on one article and not on another. How would people decide which is best of a particular article, I don't believe the first major contributor is either fair or just. It would also create a differance on articles, which makes Wikipedia looks stupid. We need a definate policy, and I think the current one works fine. The opening line for Neville Chamberlain to me is fine and a lot better than it would be with brackets, which are messy. And the DNB do things very diferantly to Wikipedia as shown by their opening line, so what they do is immaterial. --UpDown 13:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- On the contrary, I believe that parenthesising uncommonly used first names looks messy and can be confusing. Just a personal opinion of course, but I prefer to give the full name without parenthesis, then the dates, then the name by which the individual was actually known. I consider this far less confusing, particularly for people whose first language isn't English and who may not understand what the parentheses mean. You are correct that the DNB does it your preferred way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way - the DNB was written by scholars who assumed everyone understood such conventions, and its consumers are probably primarily similar people. Wikipedia, on the other hand, is more a general encyclopaedia than a scholarly work and its consumers are not necessarily versed in scholarly conventions. I do, however, believe that the common name should always be listed for the sake of clarity, even if it's the article title. -- Necrothesp 13:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Having different approaches doesn't necessarily make WP look stupid (we do fine with the different date formats), but I do think it's a problem that whereas Neville Chamberlain opens with one method of explaining a name, an editor who think's that's fine edits another article to remove any indication of the use of the middle name. We need a better solution than one where an apparently unilateral change to the guidelines is used to justify that inconsistency. In any case, surely the current guidelines deprecate the format used on Neville Chamberlain just as much as the parenthesied format?
- If the bracketed format is to be deprecated (I'd prefer it wasn't, but that may be the consensus, and Necrothesp has a good point abut the difft audience), could we at least amend the guidelines to permit (or require, I don't mind) the format used on Neville Chamberlain? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs)
- I would have no problem with that. I should have done so with Ruth Dalton. --UpDown 13:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree the guidelines should be amended. -- Necrothesp 14:01, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I would have no problem with that. I should have done so with Ruth Dalton. --UpDown 13:41, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- On the contrary, I believe that parenthesising uncommonly used first names looks messy and can be confusing. Just a personal opinion of course, but I prefer to give the full name without parenthesis, then the dates, then the name by which the individual was actually known. I consider this far less confusing, particularly for people whose first language isn't English and who may not understand what the parentheses mean. You are correct that the DNB does it your preferred way, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best way - the DNB was written by scholars who assumed everyone understood such conventions, and its consumers are probably primarily similar people. Wikipedia, on the other hand, is more a general encyclopaedia than a scholarly work and its consumers are not necessarily versed in scholarly conventions. I do, however, believe that the common name should always be listed for the sake of clarity, even if it's the article title. -- Necrothesp 13:29, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, but there is no reason to use brackets on one article and not on another. How would people decide which is best of a particular article, I don't believe the first major contributor is either fair or just. It would also create a differance on articles, which makes Wikipedia looks stupid. We need a definate policy, and I think the current one works fine. The opening line for Neville Chamberlain to me is fine and a lot better than it would be with brackets, which are messy. And the DNB do things very diferantly to Wikipedia as shown by their opening line, so what they do is immaterial. --UpDown 13:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
How's this for wording:
- Where the subject uses one of their middle name rather than their first name, that should be indicated by including a "known as" phrase after the dates of birth and death. The style of placing unused first names in brackets should not be used;
- Correct
- (from Brian Jones): Lewis Brian Hopkin Jones (28 February 1942 – 3 July 1969), known as Brian Jones …
- Wrong
- (Lewis) Brian Hopkin Jones (28 February 1942 – 3 July 1969) …
--BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:38, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- Looks fine. -- Necrothesp 15:04, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest that having apparently reached agreement between three editors here, that we leave it a few days before implementing the changes, to see if anyone else wants to contribute. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- It looks good to me. Chris the speller 15:30, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
- I suggest that having apparently reached agreement between three editors here, that we leave it a few days before implementing the changes, to see if anyone else wants to contribute. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:10, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
Hold on a minute...
- Thanks for drawing my attention to this debate, which I believe is missing the point. It appears that a significant number of people are under the impression that there is something uniquely important about a person's first forename, and that it should be accorded special status. To me, the sight of Brian Jones's name with 'Lewis' in brackets but 'Hopkin' not is bizarre and indefensible. He had three forenames, one of which was the main one. 'Nuff said. Similarly, to say that Brian Jones was known as Brian Jones strikes me as unnecessary. That was his name. It's the article's title. I'm genuinely puzzled as to what information this recently added assertion is intended to convey.
- What I am trying to say is that, whatever convention Wikipedia follows, it should not discriminate between juxtonyms and schizonyms. If we say "James Paul McCartney (known as Paul McCartney)" then we have to say "John Ono Lennon (born John Winston Lennon, known as John Lennon)", and do the same for every person who is not known by their full name – i.e. the vast majority.
- P.S. Is it purely coincidence that you recently edited Are You Dave Gorman?, whose talk page carries my most extensive and impassioned plea for resistance to schizonymacentricity (the very set of assumptions responsible for such misleading phrases as "known by their middle name")? Grant 12:47, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Grant, I'm not sue who the "you" is that you refer to in your PS, so I can't help you on that point, but it seems to me that you are missing something here. The issue, as I see it is that in English-style naming, most people have two or more given names and a surname, and are known for most purposes by the first given name and the surname; those who other combinations (such as middle name+surname or first two names+surname) are the exception. Presented with a name like "Eric Alfred Theodore William FitzRoy", readers know that unless told otherwise that person can be assumed to use for most purposes the name "Eric Fitzroy", or (e.g. in North America, where the middle initial is widely used, as "Eric A. Fitzroy".
- The purpose of spelling out the use of a middle name is simply to clarify to reader from the start that the disparity between the article title and the list of names is a) not a mistake, and b) is a customary usage rather than the result of a change of name. In most cases, this adds only four words to the lead para, so it's hardly cluttersome; and as above, it will apply only to a fairly small minority of articles.
- I think that with the example of Brian Jones, you may misunderstand what is being proposed: it's not matter of saying (tautologically) that "Brian Jones was known as Brian Jones", but rather of saying that "Lewis Brian Jones was known as Brian Jones", concisely clarifying an apparent inconsistency. That's all.
- BTW, there seems to be consensus here not to use brackets, but to describe it as an "indefensible" practice seems odd: the Dictionary of National Biography is a highly-respected publication which uses it. The less current Dictionary of Australian biography] uses the "known as" format: see, for example Penleigh Boyd. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:46, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- For a detailed response, see subsection below. Grant 00:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- I actually came here, following a message left on my talk page, to say pretty much exactly the same thing as Grant has above. I think names in brackets look terribly ugly, especially as the very first word in an article, which is what the brackets-policy would result in. I also fail to see the point of saying "John William Smith (born XYZ), known as William Smith...". It's completely obvious from the article title that he's called that. I really can't imagine anyone coming across such an article and thinking "The article title says William Smith, but William's his middle name! What's going on???", and I also can't imagine anyone thinking such a situation is due to a mistake on our part ("Ha ha! His name was John Smith but those fools at Wikipedia have called the article William Smith! What idiots!"). And you mention people known by both first names: surely we aren't going to put "John William Smith, known as John William Smith"? "George Walker Bush, known as George W. Bush"? I really don't see why the article title (combined with the person's usual name as the caption of a picture in appropriate cases) isn't enough in all these cases. "Known as..." should be reserved for people whose usual name is totally unrelated to their full name ("known as Bono" and what not), not overused in obvious cases. Proteus (Talk) 18:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia convention for biographical article titles is that they use the the name someone is most commonly known as. Therefore I agree with Proteus that no further explanation is necessary unless there are exceptional circumstances (for example, being known as a completely different name). This is certainly how I've always read articles on Wikipedia, e.g. Rupert Murdoch.
- If we were going to use parentheses, all parts of a name that aren't commonly used should be in brackets – for many articles, that would be the person's middle name. On the other hand, if we are always going to put "known as..." in cases where someone doesn't simply use their first given name and surname, we should include it for articles where someone uses both forenames, e.g. Sarah Jessica Parker (otherwise, by some people's reckoning, readers will think it's Sarah Parker, right?) Using the article title and any captions to give the preferred form of a person's name is the best solution. Let's save "known as..." for when we really need it as it does clutter up the opening. JRawle (Talk) 20:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Once again I make the point I made above. You're coming to this as native English speakers who don't need clarification. I believe it is a good idea to make things as unambiguous as possible. It would also only work if the article title always reflected the name by which the person was commonly known. In many cases it doesn't, particularly where full names have been used as article titles in order to disambiguate people with the same first name/surname combination. -- Necrothesp 21:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- If we were going to use parentheses, all parts of a name that aren't commonly used should be in brackets – for many articles, that would be the person's middle name. On the other hand, if we are always going to put "known as..." in cases where someone doesn't simply use their first given name and surname, we should include it for articles where someone uses both forenames, e.g. Sarah Jessica Parker (otherwise, by some people's reckoning, readers will think it's Sarah Parker, right?) Using the article title and any captions to give the preferred form of a person's name is the best solution. Let's save "known as..." for when we really need it as it does clutter up the opening. JRawle (Talk) 20:56, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- That shouldn't be done. John (William) Smith and John (Henry) Smith should be disambiguated as "John Smith (astronaut)" and "John Smith (musician)" or whatever, both to avoid the possible confusion you mention and because the disambiguation system has been expressly designed to use bracketed disambiguating terms to allow ease of linking using the pipe trick. And I really don't see how it's a language issue. How is knowledge or lack thereof of the English language going to affect whether someone realises that article names correspond to the common name of the subject of the article? Proteus (Talk) 22:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Whether it should or shouldn't be done (and no policy says it shouldn't be done), it has been done. I fail to see why piping is any easier with a bracketed disambiguator than with a middle name. I also think you are forgetting that not every language constructs names as ours does. When is clarification ever a bad thing? -- Necrothesp 22:37, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- That shouldn't be done. John (William) Smith and John (Henry) Smith should be disambiguated as "John Smith (astronaut)" and "John Smith (musician)" or whatever, both to avoid the possible confusion you mention and because the disambiguation system has been expressly designed to use bracketed disambiguating terms to allow ease of linking using the pipe trick. And I really don't see how it's a language issue. How is knowledge or lack thereof of the English language going to affect whether someone realises that article names correspond to the common name of the subject of the article? Proteus (Talk) 22:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- When it clutters up articles and is unnecessary for the overwhelming majority of readers. If "it might clarify it for someone" were an incontrovertible argument for putting stuff in articles, even the simplest thing would become ridiculously long: we could have a bracketed definition after non-simple words in case someone doesn't know what they mean ("he entered into a contract (a legally enforceable agreement) with..."), the British English equivalent of every US English term after it (and vice versa) ("he put the body in the trunk (or boot, if you're in the Commonwealth)", a summary of historical events to remind people what happened in them whenever they're mentioned ("he fought at the Battle of Waterloo (the one where Napolean was defeated by Wellington)"), and so on and so on. At the end of the day, we're writing an encyclopaedia, and so we have to assume the reader has a certain amount of basic intelligence, or the whole thing just wouldn't work. The ability to work out that if an article begins "John William Smith" followed by a date or dates and "William Smith" is written in big letters just above that then it's about a chappy who used his middle name is, I would say, something we can expect people to have. As for disambiguation, John Smith (whatsit) allows you to link with [[John Smith (whatsit)|]] whereas John William Smith requires [[John William Smith|John Smith]] (and, of course, requires whoever's linking to check the article to see whether he is "John Smith" or "William Smith"). Proteus (Talk) 23:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- Er no, because those things should be linked, allowing clarification with a single click of the mouse. That's why we link in the first place. As to piping, good grief, you mean it takes a few extra characters? Woe! Woe! Very few people use that way of piping anyway - I'm not actually sure I've ever seen anyone use it. I don't quite understand your last point - if the article's entitled William Smith then [[John Smith (whatsit)|]] wouldn't link to it anyway. If a disambiguator is used then the person doing the linking is still going to have to check to see exactly what disambiguator has been used - they're rarely 100% obvious. -- Necrothesp 23:18, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- When it clutters up articles and is unnecessary for the overwhelming majority of readers. If "it might clarify it for someone" were an incontrovertible argument for putting stuff in articles, even the simplest thing would become ridiculously long: we could have a bracketed definition after non-simple words in case someone doesn't know what they mean ("he entered into a contract (a legally enforceable agreement) with..."), the British English equivalent of every US English term after it (and vice versa) ("he put the body in the trunk (or boot, if you're in the Commonwealth)", a summary of historical events to remind people what happened in them whenever they're mentioned ("he fought at the Battle of Waterloo (the one where Napolean was defeated by Wellington)"), and so on and so on. At the end of the day, we're writing an encyclopaedia, and so we have to assume the reader has a certain amount of basic intelligence, or the whole thing just wouldn't work. The ability to work out that if an article begins "John William Smith" followed by a date or dates and "William Smith" is written in big letters just above that then it's about a chappy who used his middle name is, I would say, something we can expect people to have. As for disambiguation, John Smith (whatsit) allows you to link with [[John Smith (whatsit)|]] whereas John William Smith requires [[John William Smith|John Smith]] (and, of course, requires whoever's linking to check the article to see whether he is "John Smith" or "William Smith"). Proteus (Talk) 23:06, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Proteus, putting known as is stating the obvious and is not necessary. --UpDown 07:51, 20 August 2007 (UTC)
- UpDown, this looks like the direct opposite of what you wrote above, a few days ago. It's a Good Thing™ to be ready to chnage ones mind, but maybe you could clairify what prompted you to change your mind here?
- For those who say that this isn't necessary, why do the biographical dictionaries do it? The ODNB etc have been publishing biographical articles for a lot longer than wikipedia has existed, and as far as I can see they all agree that is a need for some form of clarification, though they differ about which form to use. Doesn't that usage tell us something about the need for this? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- From what I've seen of the ODNB, they don't have what we have (a main title before the subject's full name), meaning further clarification of the actual name used may be needed. Any need for that in WP is eliminated by the article title. Proteus (Talk) 11:05, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- BrownHairedGirl what I said was I would have "no problem with that", I did not say I liked the idea (hence why I had never inserted in personally, and hence what I did at Ruth Dalton). At the time it looked like a small discussion between 3 people, and with me the only one against the idea I thought it was best just to comprimise and not argue further. Since the discussion has enlarged and I discovered I am not the only with the view that "known as" is unnecessary, so I thought I could set the record straight with my views. --UpDown 12:22, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Response to BrownHairedGirl's initial reply to my 'Hold on a minute...'
Rather than break the flow of what BrownHairedGirl has written above, I've copied it below, and given my responses at the appropriate points.
- Grant, I'm not sue who the "you" is that you refer to in your PS, so I can't help you on that point...
- It was you. On 4 August 2007, you changed "East Fife" to "East Fife". But given the thousands of edits you've made since then, I'm not surprised you've forgotten about it. Looks like it was pure coincidence, then. But the point is... I beseech you to read the corresponding talk page, because it goes deeper into many of the points I'm trying to make here.
- ... but it seems to me that you are missing something here. The issue, as I see it is that in English-style naming, most people have two or more given names and a surname...
- How you see it? Hmmm... Most people? Possibly. But many people have only one given name. Probably more than you imagine.
- ... and are known for most purposes by the first given name and the surname...
- Well... it's probably true that more people have their main forename placed first, than have it placed second, third, etc. But it's not an overwhelming majority. "Most people" are right-handed, but we don't structure Wikipedia articles about left-handed people differently from those about right-handed people.
- ... those who other combinations (such as middle name+surname or first two names+surname) are the exception.
- Well, no, actually... It's hard to get accurate figures, and representative lists giving full names and main forenames are somewhat thin on the ground, but let's take British prime ministers of the last hundred years as a case in point. By my reckoning, only eight out of nineteen conform to your schizonym stereotype of normality. The other eleven are juxtonyms – three with only one forename, and eight known by the second of two. Hardly an exception, then.
- ... Presented with a name like "Eric Alfred Theodore William FitzRoy", readers know that unless told otherwise that person can be assumed to use for most purposes the name "Eric Fitzroy", or (e.g. in North America, where the middle initial is widely used, as "Eric A. Fitzroy".
- Why on earth would they 'know' that?
- The purpose of spelling out the use of a middle name is simply to clarify to reader from the start that the disparity between the article title and the list of names...
- What disparity? I suspect you only see one because you are unaware just how common juxtonymy is. Take a look at the quaintly named List of people known by middle name before they delete it (ironically, on the grounds that it's too long to signify anything unusual). The fact that Kevin Keegan isn't known as Joseph is no more a 'disparity' than the fact that David Beckham isn't known as Joseph. 'Most people' with more than one forename have one that is used for everyday purposes. There is no reason why that needs to be the first one. And no reason to comment on it, either way.
- ... is a) not a mistake, and b) is a customary usage rather than the result of a change of name. In most cases, this adds only four words to the lead para, so it's hardly cluttersome;
- Alternatively, you could insert the words "Clutter, clutter, clutter, clutter," into the first sentence of any article. It's only four words, but it's still clutter.
- ... and as above, it will apply only to a fairly small minority of articles.
- No... a very large minority, at least.
- I think that with the example of Brian Jones, you may misunderstand what is being proposed...
- Really?
- ... it's not matter of saying (tautologically) that "Brian Jones was known as Brian Jones", but rather of saying that "Lewis Brian Jones...
- Do you mean Lewis Brian Hopkin Jones? You appear to have omitted one supplementary forename but not the other. Was there a reason for that?
- ... was known as Brian Jones", concisely clarifying an apparent inconsistency.
- No. Merely perpetuating the popular misconception that led you to assume it was an inconsistency in the first place.
- ... That's all.
- BTW, there seems to be consensus here not to use brackets, but to describe it as an "indefensible" practice seems odd: the Dictionary of National Biography is a highly-respected publication which uses it...
- They don't use it consistently, though, do they? The ODNB's own list of British prime ministers, for instance, gives no indication that Bonar Law's first forename was rarely, if ever, used.
- ... The less current Dictionary of Australian biography] uses the "known as" format: see, for example Penleigh Boyd.
- In fact, it uses "always known as". I can almost see the adverb edit wars now... But, as other people have already pointed out: Because the article's title is "BOYD, THEODORE PENLEIGH", there is at least an excuse for establishing what name Boyd actually used. In Wikipedia, that is not necessary. The question is: Why do they not also establish the usual names of those who manage to get through their daily lives without recourse to a second or third forename. The answer, of course, is rampant schizonymacentricity. Were I numbered among the editors of one of these august publications, I would argue my case fiercely in that forum. As it is, I can at least endeavour to ensure that Wikipedia does not fall into the same trap.
Sorry if the foregoing seems like a rant, but this matters to me. Grant 00:40, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
- A Google search for "schizonymacentricity" shows precisely four hits, two of which are your uses on this page. I can see that schizonymacentricity is an important issue for you, but it doesn't appear to be so for anyone else. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 21:30, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Naming of female relatives
I have noticed a tendency to "revert" female relatives to their maiden names in biographical articles. Articles often say something like "John Jones was born in 1938 to Bob Jones and Nancy Smith", even though "Nancy Smith" did not go by her maiden name. This is probably a result of some genealogical tables which use maiden names, but is certainly misleading for biographical purposes. I first noticed this in an article on Congressman Ron Paul, where both his wife and mother were referenced solely, and inaccurately, by their maiden names.
Since this may be due to confusion from looking at raw genealogical tables, should something be added to the manual to clarify that relatives should not be reverted to names which they themselves do not use? Lnh27 10:02, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I agree. I've always found it odd when somebody's mother is referred to by her maiden name, thus implying that the subject of the article was illegitimate. -- Necrothesp 10:43, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
From the Franz Liszt article: "His parents were Adam and Maria Anna Liszt (née Lager)". I see nothing offensive in this. Is it a suitable model? Chris the speller 14:55, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- That's fine, although "His parents were Adam Liszt and Maria Anna Liszt (née Lager)" is better, as the other form implies his father too was born Lager - it may be obvious what it means, but it still isn't very good English. But it would be confusing (and incorrect) if she was listed just as Maria Anna Lager, which wasn't her name when her son was born. I also dislike "the former" (e.g. "His parents were Adam Liszt and the former Maria Anna Lager"), which seems to be a common American form and suggests that his mother was dead when he was born, had changed her forenames as well, or had become nameless! She's not the former Maria Anna Lager, but Maria Anna Liszt, formerly Lager. - -- Necrothesp 15:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
- I have to admit that I do this "the former" thing quite a lot, but then I tend to edit articles on peers, and saying "his parents were the 7th Earl of York and the Countess of York" seems to me to be rather unhelpful, whereas "his parents were the 7th Earl of York and the former Lady Isabella Plantagenet" actually says what his mother's name was. I would tend to agree it's not appropriate in articles on commoners. Proteus (Talk) 17:49, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Upon further examination, this practice appears to be quite rampant. I was surprised to see otherwise well-edited articles on major figures affected by it. Though I am sure that most cases are honest mistakes, I imagine that this could be viewed by some readers as patronising or politically motivated. Could someone with more experience please write up an addition to the Manual, if I am correct that this practice is inappropriate for biographical purposes? Lnh27 17:20, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Postnominal letters
I would like to suggest that the manual of style indicate that postnominal letters to indicate knighthoods and similar honors (such as GCB) should not be included in the lead sentence if the subject was not associated with a country where such postnominals are normally used. (I'm not sure exactly how to phrase that.) I don't think that a United States president like Bill Clinton should have his article begin "William Jefferson "Bill" Clinton, GCL" in reference to an honor he received from Papua New Guinea, as it once did. [18] --Metropolitan90 18:52, 1 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the above proposal. Including a string of postnominal initials in the body of an article makes it rather difficult to read and destroys the flow for instance the article on Bob Rae begins "Robert Keith "Bob" Rae, PC, OC, OOnt, QC, BA, LLB, BPhi, LLD (honoris causa) (born August 2, 1948) is a Canadian politician." When there is an infobox, I would like to propose listing the postnomials in the infobox only instead of in the body of the article. Reginald Perrin 22:04, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- But that's not the proposal at all, since the first four postnoms are applicable to Mr Rae's country and the last three shouldn't be included anyway, since they're degrees. Postnoms applicable to the individual's own country should most certainly be included - the proposal was referring to foreign honours. -- Necrothesp 22:14, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- The non-inclusion of postnominal letters indicating degrees is not clear in the policy. I've added the following to the section on Academic titles in accord with Necrothesp's statement above: "Postnominal letters indicated academic degrees (including honorary degrees) should not be included following the subject's name.". Reginald Perrin 13:20, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, well I'll expand the proposal then. I'd like to propose that if an infobox exists, the postnominals should go there rather than in the body of the article. Reginald Perrin 22:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree. Postnominals signifying domestic honours should always be added in the body of the article. -- Necrothesp 23:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ah, well I'll expand the proposal then. I'd like to propose that if an infobox exists, the postnominals should go there rather than in the body of the article. Reginald Perrin 22:18, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
- Why? As long as the postnominals are mentioned in the infobox, why interrupt the article with a recitation of the alphabet? Reginald Perrin 01:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Because in the Commonwealth these postnoms are frequently used and are if anything a more important part of a person's name than unused middle names, which we wouldn't dream of removing. It's no more an "interruption" of the article than listing birth and death dates. I personally dislike infoboxes anyway, which I consider to be ugly and unnecessary, and if they must be used I certainly wouldn't consider them a place to which to relegate important information. -- Necrothesp 13:56, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Why? As long as the postnominals are mentioned in the infobox, why interrupt the article with a recitation of the alphabet? Reginald Perrin 01:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Reginald Perrin, are you aware that the word is spelled "postnominal", not "postnomial"? -- JackofOz 14:10, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Postnomial sounds better:) Thanks for the correction. Reginald Perrin 17:31, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Support the original proposal. To me, having the postnominals as the second thing in the article seems a bit excessive, at least for people who are from countries where postnominals are never used. There are some issues with people who changed nationalities Bob Hope, but I think the original proposal is a reasonable guideline.
I don't have a strong opinion on post-nominals in countries where they matter. From an outsider's point of view, I think it's weird that the intro-paragraph puts the recognition of notability (post-nominals) before the reason why someone was notable in the first place... but I realize some people argume post-nominals are an inseparable part of the name. — PyTom (talk) 14:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Generally, I support the original proposal, although I think exceptions should be made for people like Bob Hope who would have continued to hold British nationality (and therefore would have been Sir Bob) if he'd been born later. -- Necrothesp 14:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
- Maybe not a perfect example; if he had been born 5 years later, he wouldn't have been British at all, but American by birth. ;-) Chris the speller 16:02, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Do we have consensus about postnominal initials only being used if the subject was associated with the country where the honor is awarded? Right now, Ronald Reagan begins with a GCB, which seems like an odd situation. — PyTom (talk) 17:44, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Changing name legally vs otherwise
Per this edit what is the community's take on this and also see Fred Thompson. Thanks --Tom 06:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I disagree with your change to this Manual of Style. If a person changes his or her name, then Wikipedia should not require proof that court papers have been filed, in order for Wikipedia to recognize the name change.Ferrylodge 06:53, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
(undent) The paragraph of this Manual of Style in question says (with your proposed change in bold italics):
“ | It is not always necessary to spell out why the article title and lead paragraph give a different name. Care must be taken to avoid implying that a person who does not generally use all their forenames or who uses a familiar form has actually changed their name legally. Therefore: "Johnny Reid "John" Edwards (born June 10, 1953) ..." is preferable to saying that John Edwards was born with the name Johnny Reid Edwards. | ” |
If we have a reliable source that a person has changed his or her name, then we should not require additional legal evidence (i.e. we should not require a reliable source that the person has filed court papers). All that should be needed is a reliable source that the name has been changed.Ferrylodge 07:07, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- That actually doesn't sound to bad. Maybe we can reach some consensus here :) --Tom 07:10, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Whats the difference between Edwards and Thompson?--Tom 07:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Why do you want to change Edwards to Thompson? Could it possibly be to influence the outcome of ongoing discussion at the Fred Thompson article???Ferrylodge 07:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Whats the difference between Edwards and Thompson?--Tom 07:17, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- To piss you off?:) j/k No seriously, what do you see the differences as?--Tom 07:22, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I see a need not to change a Manual of Style unless there is a valid reason.Ferrylodge 07:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- So I guess we should take this back to the Thompson page?--Tom 07:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- Yup.Ferrylodge 07:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- So I guess we should take this back to the Thompson page?--Tom 07:30, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
- I see a need not to change a Manual of Style unless there is a valid reason.Ferrylodge 07:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
But now you do see a reason to change the Manual of Style, Ferrylodge? Tvoz |talk 05:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Please stop playing games. I said that there was no valid reason for the change proposed by Threeafterthree. I did not say that there is no valid reason for any change whatsoever in this article.Ferrylodge 06:32, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
John Edwards
This article says about Edwards:
“ | It is not always necessary to spell out why the article title and lead paragraph give a different name. Care must be taken to avoid implying that a person who does not generally use all their forenames or who uses a familiar form has actually changed their name. Therefore: "Johnny Reid "John" Edwards (born June 10, 1953) …" is preferable to saying that John Edwards was born with the name Johnny Reid Edwards. | ” |
I think this is incorrect. First of all, the phrase "John Edwards was born with the name Johnny Reid Edwards" does not imply that he has actually changed his name. Likewise, "John Edwards (born as Johnny Reid Edwards)" would not imply that he had actually changed his name. So, I don't see anything wrong with writing in the lede "John Edwards (born as Johnny Reid Edwards)." This is more in accord with BLP principles, since it does not begin the article with a name that the article's subject disfavors or may have rejected.
Incidentally, according to the Charlotte Observer, Edwards "changed his name, although not legally. In law school, he started referring to himself as John. He believed that sounded better for his new career." This is another independent reason not to treat Edwards' name any differently from Bill Clinton's name. Surely, a man can change his name without filing court papers, just as a woman can, right?Ferrylodge 03:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
So, I propose to change the above-quoted sentences to the following:
“ | It is not always necessary to spell out why the article title and lead paragraph give a different name. Also, care must be taken to avoid starting the lead paragraph with a name that the article's subject may have rejected or changed, and such name may be added parenthetically. Therefore: "John Edwards (born Johnny Reid Edwards on June 10, 1953) …" is preferable to "Johnny Reid 'John' Edwards (born June 10, 1953)." However, "James Earl 'Jimmy' Carter, Jr. (born October 1, 1924)", is acceptable because Carter has not rejected or changed his birth name. | ” |
Any objections?Ferrylodge 03:58, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- That doesn't quite do it for me. As far as I can tell, neither Johnny Reid Edwards nor James Earl Carter have changed their legal names, but are both generally known by other names (John and Jimmy, respectively). The only difference I can see is that Carter is often given his full legal name in presidential lists etc, whereas Edwards is almost never referred to as "Johnny" anywhere, except in places like the intro to biographical articles, just as Carter is introduced as "James Earl (Jimmy) Carter". If Edwards ever makes it to the White House, there will be many references to "Johnny Reid (John) Edwards". -- JackofOz 05:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- JackofOz, why must formal court papers be filed before Wikipedia will recognize a man's name change? If a woman decides to drop her married name, or start using her married name, then Wikipedia will immediately change the first words of an article accordingly. But if a man stops using his first name, and uses another instead, then Wikipedia now insists on starting out an article with the rejected first name.
- "Jimmy" is Carter's nickname. Obviously, "John" is not a nickname of Edwards. The differences seem plain to me. Don't you think it's important not to start out an article with a name that the subject of the article has changed or rejected? This seems like an important and obvious principle for a biography of a living person. Why can't that birth name be put afterward in parentheses?Ferrylodge 06:39, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I object to the proposal. We're rarely if ever in possession of definitive documents regarding legal name changes, and may or may not know whether a subject has rejected a name or just started using a different one as he or she got older or what. Common sense should prevail of course, but I see no reason to change this facet of MOSBIO which is in effect all over the encyclopedia. Some examples: Judith Giuliani, John Edwards, Rudy Guiliani, Bill Richardson, Joe Lieberman, Al Gore, Bob Kerrey, etc. Bill Clinton is in fact a different situation - he changed his surname which is more complicated than changing one's first name or adopting a new first name - it is extremely likely that Bill Clinton's name change was a legal change, and that his official legal documents use "Clinton" not "Blythe" so the way it is rendered in the article is correct and also makes sense. But it is not clear whether John Edwards or Fred Thompson (the reason Ferrylodge is raising this question - see Talk:Fred Thompson) actually had their first names legally changed from Johnny and Freddie, or if they merely took on a more mature version of their original birth names, not unlike how Jimmy Carter took on a more informal version of his. In all three cases, it seems to me that the correct model is Bill Richardson not Bill Clinton, and I think the way MOSBIO reads is correct, clear and shouldn't be changed. Likewise, I think Fred Thompson's name should be rendered the way John Edwards' is - their situations seem virtually identical. And this wording is shorter and simpler than the ungainly "John Edwards (born [date] as Johnny Reid Edwards)" , which implies a legal name change. We don't have to take care that there's an implication that someone uses a version of their birthname, as in using "Bill" or "Jimmy" instead of "William" or "James" - it's uncontroversial and clear that people use nicknames, and we render them in quotes. The cases of Edwards and Thompson are a little odd because the name in quotes, the name they use, is the more formal name, but otherwise it's exactly the same as all of the many many articles that have nicknames in quotes. MOSBIO is correct as it stands. Tvoz |talk 05:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Tvoz, is there any substantial reason to believe that Rudy Guiliani, Bill Richardson, Joe Lieberman, Al Gore, or Bob Kerrey has rejected or changed their birth names?Ferrylodge 06:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- And, this Manual of Style currently says, "in all cases, a woman should be called by the name she is most widely known under." Why should we begin articles about men with incredibly obscure names that the men have rejected as embarassing, but fully accomodate women's naming preferences?Ferrylodge 06:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Completely reject the proposal. The current standard has worked fine for every single article until Ferrylodge began objecting to and removing the display of Fred Thompson's full first name -- "Freddie." User:Ferrylodge invokes John Edwards as his example here, but the real meat of this discussion is based on Freddie Dalton "Fred" Thompson's article. Other editors should be aware of that context when participating here. Italiavivi 05:56, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Editors should also be aware that this is not some kind of sinister plot. Tvoz suggested I visit here, and I have taken up her suggestion. In a biography of a living person, it is poor form for the first words of an article to be a name that the subject of the article has rejected or changed. Does anyone wish to ackowledge that principle? If not, then there is no point in further discussion.Ferrylodge 06:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ferrylodge, I really wish you would try to get your facts straight when you quote me - this is not the first time you have misrepresented my comments to you: I did not suggest that you come here to revise MOSBIO, I asked if you were going to visit Talk: John Edwards and apply the same passionate argument regarding the silliness you seem to see in Freddie to the presumed silliness you would see in Johnny. You chose to bring it here, and it was not at my suggestion. Tvoz |talk 07:25, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- Editors should simply know for the sake of context that when discussing this change Fred Thompson is the subject you are most immediately concerned with, not John Edwards. No one said anything about a "sinister plot," no need to take a disagreement so personally. Italiavivi 06:34, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I am immediately concerned here with John Edwards. Perhaps you can discuss John Edwards now, instead of misrepresenting what I said about Fred Thompson (I have never had any objection to mentioning Thompson's birth name "Freddie" parenthetically in the lede).Ferrylodge 06:42, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
As always, I prefer the version: "Johnny Reid Edwards (born June 10, 1953), known as John Edwards..." which seems pretty unambiguous, makes it clear which name he uses and which name he was born with, and doesn't imply any legal change of name. As to the situation of a woman changing her name on marriage, this is a completely different situation, since a woman doesn't need to formally file separate papers to change her name on marriage - it's legally recognised automatically on her signing the marriage register with her new name. -- Necrothesp 08:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- The woman changing her name "automatically" by signing the marriage register depends on where the marriage took place/where the woman lives. Here in Washington, the woman is required to sign using her legal name at the time of marriage and then to file separate paperwork to legally change her name to her "married name".--Bobblehead (rants) 19:20, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
- I would have thought that was quite a new development. -- Necrothesp 21:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
More on John Reid Edwards
Based on the comments above, I'll revise my suggestion. Regarding the difference between John Edwards and Jimmy Carter, I think a clear and easily recognized difference is that Edwards sometimes goes by "John Reid Edwards" whereas Carter never goes by "Jimmy Earl Carter." Thus:
“ | It is not always necessary to spell out why the article title and lead paragraph give a different name. Also, care must be taken to avoid starting the lead paragraph with a name that the article's subject may have rejected or changed, and such name may be added parenthetically. Therefore: "John Reid Edwards (born Johnny Reid Edwards on June 10, 1953)" is preferable to "Johnny Reid 'John' Edwards (born June 10, 1953)." However, "James Earl 'Jimmy' Carter, Jr. (born October 1, 1924)", is acceptable because Carter does not use "Jimmy" as a proper name in conjunction with a middle name. | ” |
How about that? This Manual of Style currently says, "in all cases, a woman should be called by the name she is most widely known under." Why should we begin articles about men with incredibly obscure names that the men have rejected as ridiculous?
If there are no objections, I will make this change, though I expect there will probably be objections.Ferrylodge 02:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- Ferrylodge, there is an ongoing discussion above as you know - and there is no consensus for changing this section yet, so right, please don't. (Nor am I sure you're right that John Edwards uses "John Reid Edwards" - I'd have to look into that. His official signature does not have "Reid" in it.) But more importantly - I have a real problem with your coming here and trying to change MOSBIO to fit your preference in a dispute on an article page, namely Fred Thompson. Of course you should raise concerns here about MOSBIO, but that's a lot different from trying to put through a rewrite so that your preference on Thompson will be accepted. And yes, I thought Tom was wrong to do that too - I just didn't have a chance to say so. MOSBIO has a lot of people who concentrate on it without regard to specific pages - or politicians that they want to be viewed in a particularly good or bad light - and I think partisanship should stay away from here. The policy wording has gone through years of editing and what we see on the project page is the result of consensus among the editors of this policy page. And if it is to be changed, that should be decided by a broader range of people who are looking at the policy only, not its application to a particular individual's page. There is no emergency here that requires rapid rewriting, and the Thompson debate should be based on whether or not what MOSBIO has stated since August 2005 should apply, with specific regard to the wording: It is not always necessary to spell out why the article title and lead paragraph give a different name. Care must be taken to avoid implying that a person who does not generally use all their forenames or who uses a familiar form has actually changed their name. Therefore: "Johnny Reid "John" Edwards (born June 10, 1953) …" is preferable to saying that John Edwards was born with the name Johnny Reid Edwards. Tvoz |talk 05:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- More specifically: Jack of Oz, Italiavivi and I said we didn't agree with your first suggestion and I don't think any of the three said they'd like to see it redone in the way you're now suggesting, Necrothesp prefers an entirely different construction with Johnny Reid Edwards as the first name lisetd and then "known as John Edwards" - which is not at all what you are talking about, and Bobblehead didn't discuss this particular point in his comment. So what gives you the idea that your new version incorporates anything in the above comments? This is disingenuous at best, and feels pointy to me. MOSBIO's section on pseudonyms is not broken - it doesn't need fixing. Tvoz |talk 06:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
- I think Ferrylodge's interpretation of the snippet of text from Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Maiden names is mistaken, perhaps because of focus on the quoted snippet, omitting all the context. First, the text is in the context of Maiden names, as a subcase of names in general. As most of us know, it has been the common western cultural convention that women change their name to adopt their husband's surname on marriage. While that is not so commonly observerved as it once was, it gives us a style issue with respect to presenting a woman's legal name for a woman who has changed it: the birth name or the married name in the lede? Since the section is so short, I'll quote it in it's entirety:
It is common to give the maiden surname of women better known under their married name, for example:
- Lucy Washington (née Payne) (1772?–1846), widow of Major George Steptoe Washington, became the wife of Thomas Todd. She was the first woman married in the White House, in 1812.
An alternate form Lucy (Payne) Washington is also widely accepted in genealogical circles.
But in all cases, a woman should be called by the name she is most widely known under. Elizabeth Taylor, even though she was married eight times, would not be referred to under those other surnames.
- As we can see, what we have is an example of a woman's married name being presented as the primary name, with two alternate forms of presentation of maiden name, followed by a "But..." with a counterexample of a women "widely known" under her maiden name. However, drilling into the Elizabeth Taylor article, we find that it starts with: Dame Elizabeth Rosemond Taylor.
- In other words, the normal interpretation of the section is that it's presenting an apposition between maiden and married names, expressing a general preference for married name, but pointing to exceptions with the sentence that begins with "But ...". It says nothing about "knicknames" versus "full" names; "knicknames are handled in the same various ways for women as for men. For example:
- Lady Bird Johnson - Claudia Alta "Lady Bird" Taylor Johnson
- Bitty Schram - Elizabeth Natalie "Bitty" Schram
- Kathy Bates - Kathleen Doyle Bates
- Kitty Genovese - Catherine Susan Genovese ...dates..., commonly known as Kitty Genovese
- Susie Bright - Susannah "Susie" Bright (also known as Susie Sexpert)
- In other words, the normal interpretation of the section is that it's presenting an apposition between maiden and married names, expressing a general preference for married name, but pointing to exceptions with the sentence that begins with "But ...". It says nothing about "knicknames" versus "full" names; "knicknames are handled in the same various ways for women as for men. For example:
- So, the names section's clear and unambiguous statement the subject's full name should be given in the lead paragraph, if known. is conditioned (for women) with guidance about when the appropriate "full name" should be a maiden name or married name. Studerby 19:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I wish we could have some AGF here Tvoz. I would not be suggesting a change in this Manual of Style unless I sincerely thought a change was needed on the merits.Ferrylodge 02:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
- I can see no need for a change. The current procedures are perfectly satisfactory and perfectly clear. -- Necrothesp 08:17, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Pseudonym guideline wording
The "Subsequent uses of names" section says:
For people who are best known by a pseudonym, they shall be referred to by their pseudonym surname, or if not applicable, some other suitable abbreviation (or without abbreviation if none is suitable).
The general guideline here is "use surname only", the "best known by" just says "a pseudonym" and the description of what to use is "pseudonym surname". So does this all only apply for pseudonym surnames? Or if the person is known by a single-name pseudonym do we use that? What about if the pseudonym is just the first name (bordering on a nickname)? Some clearer wording and/or examples would be useful here. DMacks 21:40, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
British, or English, Scottish, Welsh, (Northern) Irish?
This is the current proposed wording of the clarification to the guideline:
The opening passage should give: ... Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.)
- Usage notes:
- 3a. Wherever possible, provide evidence of a person's nationality in a note.
- 3b. Where there is evidence of a person's preference as to how his or her nationality should be indicated, this should be respected and the evidence referred to in a note.
- 3c. Otherwise, if there is other sufficient, undisputed evidence of a person's nationality, such as birth and long residence in a country, nationality of that country may be stated.
- 3d. If there is no clear evidence of a person's nationality (e.g., if a person was born in one country and lived and worked partly in that country and partly in another), no nationality should be stated. No assumption regarding a person's nationality based on his or her place of birth or residence should be made.
- 3e. British nationals – The United Kingdom is comprised of four constituent countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Although persons from these countries hold British nationality, there is consensus that if usage note 3b or 3c applies, a person should be described as "English", "Northern Irish (or Irish)", "Scottish" or "Welsh", as the case may be. In other cases, the person should be described as "British".
- 3f. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.
(The underlining will be omitted from the final version.) If you have comments on it, please add them to the end of the discussion thread. Cheers, Jacklee. Updated on 18:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC).
Hi, this issue has probably cropped up umpteen times, but I don't know where to find a definitive answer for it. For, say, a writer who has British nationality and was born in Cardiff, Wales, should she be billed as a "Welsh author" or as a "British author from Wales" or "of Welsh extraction", which is what I've been doing? I ask this question, because some edits I made were recently amended on the basis that there was apparently "common consensus". I was referred to the Featured Article "Charles Darwin", but there was no discussion on its talk page on the matter, and I would think that the "other stuff exists" rule applies here. If there is a consensus on the matter, could it be added to this part of the Manual of Style? Cheers, Jacklee 13:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well, a person from Wales isn't really of Welsh extraction. They're Welsh. "Welsh extraction" implies that they're of Welsh heritage but don't actually come from Wales themselves. Neither would I put they were British from Wales, which sounds rather odd. They're either British or Welsh. Either is acceptable and both are accurate. My preference is usually to put English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish if it's indisputable which they are (i.e. if they were born in that country and there's no suggestion that they identified with any other) and British otherwise. If you put their birthplace in the body of the article then the reader can draw their own conclusions. In any case, whatever you put in your example someone will come round sooner or later and change it to Welsh. -- Necrothesp 14:52, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, a person from, say, Cardiff, is not British or Welsh, he or she is both. I would have thought that it is better to put that a person is "British... from Wales" as such a person would have British nationality. I don't know whether there are people from other nations where this issue crops up: "Catalan painter", "Florentine sculptor", "Quebecois scientist"? I suppose I don't mind either way, but the preferred approach should be decided upon through consensus and mentioned this in this part of the Manual of Style. Incidentally, I don't think it's a good reason to make a decision one way or another just because other editors are going to come along and amend articles in certain ways. If that were the case, we wouldn't have any guidelines on the use of copyrighted images, because editors keep inserting them into articles. :-) Cheers, Jacklee 15:54, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, they are both. That's what I meant. However, it is not normal to say a person is British and Welsh or British from Wales (or England, Scotland or Northern Ireland) - for instance, I would describe myself as British or English depending on the context, but I would certainly never describe myself as British and English or British from England. British is my legal nationality, English describes my country and culture of origin and is how I happen to prefer to identify myself. Informally, some people prefer to describe themselves as one, some the other, some are equally happy with both. I agree that guidelines should not be dictated by nationalists, but it is still the case that whatever you put a nationalist will come along and change it to their preferred version. This has been happening since Wikipedia was born and no amount of discussion is likely to change it. It's not an argument against guidelines, merely a statement of fact. -- Necrothesp 16:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Surely the problem here is that "Welsh" or "English" is indeed about (in Necrothesp's words) how "some people prefer to describe themselves". The difficulty is in finding the evidence for their preference. Simply being born in one of the regions of the UK is insufficient, because it tells us nothing about that preference. Where there is no evidence, shouldn't "British" be the default? Bluewave 16:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- No British shouldn't be the default, as its not accurate as to how many, indeed, most people in the UK would describe themselves. I agree that being born someone is no sign of nationality, if Sean Connery had been born in, say, Newcastle because his parents were on holiday at the time, that would not make him English. He's clearly Scottish. With most people it is easy to know what they are, with those that arent, then British is good. But we should not have people going round en-masse changing to British, which is what User:Darkieboy236 has been doing. And the reason I exampled Darwin was that as a featured article had there been a massive problem with English, it would have been brought up in the review. It wasnt. In addition, we use English/Scottish/Welsh categories. We have them for a reason. I think that most people on Wiki accept English/Scottish/Welsh, but every now and again people come along on a crusade to change them all to British.--UpDown 16:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that "With most people it is easy to know what they are". Do we honestly know that Darwin (the original example) regarded himself as English, rather than British? Bluewave 17:09, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Lets look at the facts. Darwin has born in England, to English parents. He lived in England all his life, he died in England. This is how we know. In the same way we known Sean Connery is Scottish, or Tom Jones Welsh. As I say below, the UK is made up of four constituent countries. The 3 on Great Britain all have long histories as indepedent nations and distinct cultural indenties. The union of Crown and Parliament has not changed this. --UpDown 17:42, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Just because someone was born, lived and died in England, it does not necessarily mean they would regard their nationality as English rather than British. An ICM poll[19] concluded that 19% of the people polled in England regarded themselves as British, not English, whereas 11% were English, rather than British. The great majority regarded themselves as some combination of the two. I don't accept that there is a simple test for Englishness. Bluewave 07:20, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- There is no "simple test", but we can use our common sense and intelligence. --UpDown 18:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
Bluewave's suggestion seems to be a sensible and pragmatic one. It will be difficult in most instances to find evidence for how people prefer to describe their "culture of origin", as Necrothesp puts it. If there is such evidence, then the Wikipedia article should use the preferred mode of description and refer to the evidence in a footnote. Otherwise, the default should be the nation that the person is from. Yes, there will always be editors who will make changes like the one we're talking about, but perhaps a guideline on the matter in the Manual of Style will help. At least it is a standard that editors can refer to, rather than reliance on unreferenced statements that this is a matter of "common consensus". Cheers, Jacklee 16:39, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I've just realized that this guideline currently states, in the "Opening paragraph" section, that a person's "nationality" should normally be stated. A note continues: "In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." Does this suggest that there is in fact a consensus, in the example we've been talking about, in favour of "British" rather than "English", "Scottish", "Welsh" or "Irish"? If so, it would seem to me that a good compromise would be, for instance, "British... from Scotland". Cheers, Jacklee 16:45, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- No I don't believe it does. The UK is made up of "four consistuent countries". Each one is a nationality. British is the legal citizenship, not nationality.--UpDown 16:48, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- Also, note further town when talking about titles in says "English sailor" when referring to Dame Ellen MacArthur. --UpDown 16:50, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I accept that the United Kingdom consists of "four constituent countries" (see "United Kingdom") and that at least the three countries that make up Great Britain had long histories as independent nations and distinct cultural identities, as UpDown points out. However, the fact is that following the various unions of the countries they are no longer independent nations but a single nation: the United Kingdom. I'm not convinced that it is right to say that a person born in, say, England has "English nationality". The article "British nationality law" explains the meaning of nationality, and nowhere does it state that British nationals from each of the four countries in the UK respectively have English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish nationality.
I don't suppose there is a problem with using "English", "Scottish", "Welsh" or "Northern Irish" if the subject of a biographical article was born in a particular UK country and spent most of his or her life there. However, what if a person was born in Edinburgh but was raised in London and lived and worked there most of her life? Would it be accurate to call her Scottish (or English for that matter)? The fact is, without more evidence it is not possible to make a judgment call. Putting the person down as "British" avoids this problem.
In fact, if a person was born in one country (say, New Zealand) but lived for most of his life in another country (say, the UK), and it is not known for sure whether he has taken on citizenship of the second country, editors may have no choice but to avoid all mention of nationality or citizenship until more facts come to light.
As I said earlier, I am happy with either using "British" or "English/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish" (though I lean towards "British"), but feel there should be some consistency. At the moment, the Manual of Style guideline is not very precise. It says, "In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable" [emphasis added]. Some consensus needs to be reached on this issue, and I would then suggest that the guideline be updated with a specific usage note concerning the UK.
Finally, I don't think that relying on the fact that "Charles Darwin" was passed as a Featured Article helps us resolve the matter. There is no indication on its talk page that the issue was discussed. The editor who passed the article could simply not have thought about it. Also, just because there are categories such as Category:English writers and Category:Scottish actors (which are perfectly fine) doesn't really, in my view, resolve the issue of whether a person should be described in the article itself as "British". There are also "British" categories. Cheers, Jacklee 21:50, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- As I have said before (not sure whether here, but I've certainly said it), not all people will fit the English/Scottish/Welsh for whatever reason. And for those people we put British. But these people are in the minority I believe. The problem is there cannot be consistency, and we can't avoid that. Putting British on everyone is not realistic or a good reflection for the reasons I've said before. And as you say not everyone can be English/Welsh/Scottish. We have to accept that we cannot have a blanket policy on this. Our policy should be we use our sensible judgement in each article. I am also strongly against "British actor from England". This I think is confusing and unclear. They should be either a British actor or an English actor, not a mixture of both. And the categories do matter. They are child categories of British, and should be used and British not if possible. My point is if, for the sake of argument, Ioan Gruffudd is in Welsh categories then Welsh should be at the top, not British. It's consistent for one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by UpDown (talk • contribs) 18:48, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- It would be so much simplier to have them all as British, so much easier. Afterall, it's the United Kingdom, not the sorta United Kingdom. GoodDay 20:21, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- Actually my understanding is that the nationality of those from Northern Ireland is different because of the Good Friday Argeement - legally individuals from Northern Ireland can legally be recognised as Irish, British or both - this makes the situation different from others in the United Kingdom.--Vintagekits 20:41, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- It can be very confusing for outsiders. I'm Canadian, so the usage of English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish to me, would be the same as using British Columbian, Albertan, Quebecer, Ontarian etc'. GoodDay 20:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- No I don't think it would be. England/Scotland/Wales are known as countries, with their own sport teams, long histories as individual countries, cultures etc. The Canadian states are not countries or nations. --UpDown 07:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Like it or not, they're all British. GoodDay 20:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- No I don't think it would be. England/Scotland/Wales are known as countries, with their own sport teams, long histories as individual countries, cultures etc. The Canadian states are not countries or nations. --UpDown 07:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- It can be very confusing for outsiders. I'm Canadian, so the usage of English, Scottish, Welsh and Northern Irish to me, would be the same as using British Columbian, Albertan, Quebecer, Ontarian etc'. GoodDay 20:46, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't think you can have a hard and fast rule. Sean Connery, who is of Irish extraction, presumably has a British passport and lives in the Bahamas should probably be referred to as Scottish. Winston Churchill should probably be referred to as British. If the emphasis is on culture, as with most writers, their cultural identity is probably more important than their passport; so it is likely that Scottish (etc.) will be more appropriate than British. But the decision should be based on how they identify themselves or are generally identified by others, not on any nationalistic point of view of the person editing the article.--Boson 21:04, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- It still stinks though. It's like saying the people of the UK are unified, yet not unified. It's quite frustrating. GoodDay 21:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
I honestly do not see what is so confusing or unclear about the formula "British author... from Scotland". I would have thought that that was an acceptable compromise between simply "British" and "English/Northern Irish (or Irish: see "Northern Ireland#Citizenship and identity")/Scottish/Welsh". It is not the case that a person is either British or Scottish and not both. Quite the opposite, such is person is certainly both British and Scottish. I would propose the following clarification of the rule:
The opening passage should give: ... Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.)
- Usage notes:
- 3a. Wherever possible, provide evidence of a person's nationality in a note.
- 3b. Where there is evidence of a person's preference as to how his or her nationality should be indicated, this should be respected and the evidence referred to in a note.
- 3c. Otherwise, if there is other sufficient, undisputed evidence of a person's nationality, such as long residence in a country, nationality of that country may be stated.
- 3d. If there is no clear evidence of a person's nationality (e.g., if a person was born in one country and lived and worked partly in that country and partly in another), no nationality should be stated. No assumption regarding a person's nationality based on his or her place of birth or residence should be made.
- 3e. British nationals – The United Kingdom is comprised of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. If usage note 3b applies, a person should be described as "English", "Northern Irish (or Irish)", "Scottish" or "Welsh", as the case may be. In other cases, the person should be described as "British from England/Northern Ireland/Scotland/Wales".
- 3f. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.
Comments and suggestions for improvement please, particularly regarding notes 3c, 3d and 3e. Cheers, Jacklee 23:30, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
- As I say above I strongly disagree with the above. I think using "from England/" is deeply misleading and also sounds awful! I think the above is designed knowing that for many finding a reptuable source for English etc would be difficult, meaning many would wrongly be called English. I don't believe we can have a rule for everything, and this is one of those we can't for. We have to use our reasoned judgement. Frankly its a lot easier than you are making out. --UpDown 07:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- If somebody is "British from England" then they are English - the two terms are synonymous, but the former looks weird and would never be used in normal speech. If there is confusion about their nation of origin then they are not "British from England" but simply British. Is someone who was born in England but grew up in Wales and then moved back to England "British from England"? That's merely their country of birth. They might identify as English or Welsh (or maybe both) or simply as British. In this case it is far better to put English or Welsh if they are known to express a specific preference or just British otherwise. If they were born in England and have lived in England all their lives then they are English - that's a fact and their preference is fairly irrelevant, just as we wouldn't list somebody as a "citizen of the world" (which is how some people describe themselves). -- Necrothesp 07:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Thats a good point about "citizen of the world"!--UpDown 11:56, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I feel strongly that we need a guideline on this. It's no good saying "we have to use our reasoned judgment", because my reasoned judgment told me (wrongly, according to you), that it would be better to list certain persons as "British" rather than as "English" or "Welsh", which was your preference. If a guideline is not developed, other editors are going have this debate over and over again. All right, what about this?
The opening passage should give: ... Nationality (In the normal case this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national, or was a citizen when the person became notable.)
- Usage notes:
- 3a. Wherever possible, provide evidence of a person's nationality in a note.
- 3b. Where there is evidence of a person's preference as to how his or her nationality should be indicated, this should be respected and the evidence referred to in a note.
- 3c. Otherwise, if there is other sufficient, undisputed evidence of a person's nationality, such as birth and long residence in a country, nationality of that country may be stated.
- 3d. If there is no clear evidence of a person's nationality (e.g., if a person was born in one country and lived and worked partly in that country and partly in another), no nationality should be stated. No assumption regarding a person's nationality based on his or her place of birth or residence should be made.
- 3e. British nationals – The United Kingdom is comprised of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales. Although persons from these countries hold British nationality, there is consensus that if usage note 3b or 3c applies, a person should be described as "English", "Northern Irish (or Irish)", "Scottish" or "Welsh", as the case may be. In other cases, the person should be described as "British".
- 3f. Ethnicity should generally not be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability.
(The underlining will be omitted from the final version.) In this way, only if it is completely unclear which part of the UK a person is from will he or she be called "British". In other cases, "English/(Northern) Irish/Scottish/Welsh" will be used. Cheers, Jacklee 12:34, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Why can't we just say British, and leave it at that? British from Wales? That's like Canadian from Alberta. GoodDay 13:20, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I hate to sound patronising, but User:GoodDay if you don't understand the difference between UK/England and Canada/Alberta then I suggest you do some reading up on our articles. There is a huge difference.--UpDown 17:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- The UK is divided into constituent countries and Canada is divided into provinces & territories. GoodDay 20:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- That sounds a good idea but is probably unimplementable because of the strong feelings it will raise. As far as I know, "British" is the only one that has any legal validity or verifiability, in the UK or anywhere else. Someone becomes British by meeting certain legal conditions. On the other hand, "English", "Scottish" or "Welsh" describes what some believe to be their cultural identity. There is no verifiable test of this, and there is nothing to stop any British person deciding that they are Welsh one day and Scottish the next. Where someone is particularly associated with the cultural identity of one of the countries, there is some point in using the more specific terms: Sean Connery and Tom Jones have been mentioned already. However, at the moment, Wikipedia has got the balance wrong and categorises the great majority of British people as Scottish, Welsh or English, rather than British. We know from the ICM poll that I cited above that a large proportion of people in the UK say that their nationality is British, and this is simply not reflected in Wikipedia at present. Bluewave 14:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I hate to sound patronising, but User:GoodDay if you don't understand the difference between UK/England and Canada/Alberta then I suggest you do some reading up on our articles. There is a huge difference.--UpDown 17:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Have made a slight amendment to the proposed new guidelines above. I hope they represent an adequate compromise position. Cheers, Jacklee 16:50, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- WP:MOSFLAG states we should only ever use the sovereign "upper" nationality in infoboxes (so British in this case). A compromise may be that the lead uses sub-British nationality, whilst the infobox does not. -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:04, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Patrick Pearse, for obvious reasons, doesn't use the B-word, or the flag. There's no reason why every article needs to have a nationality stated, either in the lead in words, or through some poxy flag icon in an ugly infobox. If you don't know, don't say. Angus McLellan (Talk) 17:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Use of flag icons isn't really the issue here, but I accept what WP:MOSFLAG says about the association between flags and nationality. Cheers, Jacklee 17:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
Ladies and Gentlemen, it's snowing in the United Kingdom. --Breadandcheese 17:19, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, with the revised proposed usage notes (see the top of this section), I thought we're quite close to a reasonable compromise. Cheers, Jacklee 17:27, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- For one, it seems to have been drafted with little or no understanding of the problems arising here. Firstly, the UK is made up of four constituent countries - 'four countries' is controversial and is not used on Wikipedia in favour of the former usage. Secondly, the idea of expanding the localised nationalities is ridiculous in the context of people who are clearly primarily defined as being British. --Breadandcheese 17:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- OK, have amended the proposed guideline to read "constituent countries". For the reasons given by Bluewave above, I don't think we're going to get consensus to use "British" across the board, so the guideline is a compromise that recognizes that many people identify culturally as "English/(Northern) Irish/Scottish/Welsh". If there's evidence that a particular person wishes to be known as "British", then by all means that should be indicated, in line with usage note 3b. Cheers, Jacklee 18:24, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm amazed ... I think we may have a guideline!! The second proposal sits fine with me. I especially like "3c.", which I think most UK people would we be able to go in to. As long as the following "If there is no clear evidence of a person's nationality (e.g., if a person was born in one country and lived and worked partly in that country and partly in another), no nationality should be stated" doesn't apply to actors like Sean Connery who, while obviously, Scottish, don't like in Scotland, then I'm happy. --UpDown 17:54, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
The latest proposal looks fine to me. . . .LinguisticDemographer 17:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
This was discussed a month or two ago on the proposed and rejected UK MOS. On that occasion, it was felt that the only reason for the proposed MOS was a thinly veilled attempt by some editors to have all UK nationals described as "British". (There is an air of nationalist politics blowing in that direction at the moment.)
The sticking problem then was that even though most people don't explicity declare to be English/Scottish/etc. to the exception of British, the normal way of describing people from the UK is still, for the most part, in those terms. A blanket description of everyone as British, with the exception of declared Scottish, Welsh and Irish nationalists (which in effect is what it would mean) is quite abnormal.
The proposal above falls into exacly the same trap. --sony-youthpléigh 18:53, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think that the guideline looks reversed and that we should only use British if the note 3b applies and that the appropriate constituent country should be used in all other cases. Keith D 19:55, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'd go with that. --UpDown 08:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- No, because there is no policy about insisting on "British" in the infobox. Lurker (said · done) 13:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- This still stinks, the UK's division (constituent countries) shouldn't be getting special treatment. Italy's people are Italians (not Nepalese, Scillian etc) , France' people are French (not Normans etc). GoodDay 13:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Giving up on this discussion, there's too much nationalism involved. (Northern) Irish, Scottish, English and Welsh peoples seem reluctant to have British put ahead of their historic nationalities (which IMHO is frustating, but existant). GoodDay 14:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- This seems to imply that those who use the constituent country nationality are nationalists, but those who use "British" are not. If you want to leave a debate, please do so without implying that those who disagree with you are being unreasonable- it's not very constructive. Lurker (said · done) 14:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sorry for my 'slight temper flare', I'm just frustrated with the whole thing. And you're correct, I shouldn't be leaving this discussion in a huff, my apologies. GoodDay 14:12, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- This seems to imply that those who use the constituent country nationality are nationalists, but those who use "British" are not. If you want to leave a debate, please do so without implying that those who disagree with you are being unreasonable- it's not very constructive. Lurker (said · done) 14:05, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Giving up on this discussion, there's too much nationalism involved. (Northern) Irish, Scottish, English and Welsh peoples seem reluctant to have British put ahead of their historic nationalities (which IMHO is frustating, but existant). GoodDay 14:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- This still stinks, the UK's division (constituent countries) shouldn't be getting special treatment. Italy's people are Italians (not Nepalese, Scillian etc) , France' people are French (not Normans etc). GoodDay 13:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- No, because there is no policy about insisting on "British" in the infobox. Lurker (said · done) 13:38, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- If you do as you propose, and make the default "English/Scots etc", you are ignoring the fact that only 22% of people in England regard themselves as more English than British and 50% of people in Scotland think they are more Scottish than British (assuming the ICM poll is representative). And, by the way, I don't think I'm a "vociferous advocate of the Union": I really don't much care about the Union but do find it odd that almost no-one mentioned in Wikipedia seems to be of British nationality. Bluewave 13:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- In fairness, that is only one opinion poll. --UpDown 16:16, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- If you do as you propose, and make the default "English/Scots etc", you are ignoring the fact that only 22% of people in England regard themselves as more English than British and 50% of people in Scotland think they are more Scottish than British (assuming the ICM poll is representative). And, by the way, I don't think I'm a "vociferous advocate of the Union": I really don't much care about the Union but do find it odd that almost no-one mentioned in Wikipedia seems to be of British nationality. Bluewave 13:58, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
This is not simply an issue for the United Kingdom
On the "taking things to their logical conclusion" principal, what nationality was Leonardo da Vinci, or Goethe, or Yehuda Halevi, or Isaac Newton, or Adam Mickiewicz, or Bonnie Prince Charlie, or Muhammad, or Jesus?
For that matter, what "nationality" is Gordon Brown? To the media and the general public he is (almost quintessentially) Scottish, he apparently identifies himself as primarily British (although he has never rejected his Scottish nationality), and technically he is a citizen of the European Union, and approaches his 'Europeanness' with great pride and seriousness if his brave political decisions are an indication of his personal feelings.
What "nationality" is Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama?
Petrarch, who has long been used as an example on this page, is described as "Italian" here, centuries before the invention of the Italian state.
Please note that this - "Although persons from these countries hold British nationality..." - is incomplete. People from those 4 countries are not only citizens of the United Kingdom, but also citizens of the European Union, sometimes also/or of Ireland; and are treated differently under the separate legal systems according to their official domicile (see English law, Northern Ireland law and Scots law).
Personally, I am of the opinion that English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh nationalists would absolutely love it if Wikipedia started imposing the adjective "British" all over biographical articles, especially if "English" etc is then added in brackets as a sideswipe à la Colin McRae. It sometimes seems to me that the vociferous advocates of the Union here at Wikipedia are actually their own worst enemies. Plus ça change... --Mais oui! 08:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- I still don't like the idea of one country being treated different from the others. There's too much prominance being given to the UK's divisions. People of Italy aren't called Scillians, Naplese etc (and those former independant countries have just as long of histories). GoodDay 13:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Because Britain is regarded as a union of countries. If Italy doesn't do that, that's their choice, but Wikipedia should base its articles on facts and not politics. And the fact is that constituent country nationalities are regarded as equally valid as "British", as a look at any UK newspaper will confirm. Lurker (said · done) 13:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- BTW, why was a notice about this debate posted on the English, Northern Irish, Welsh And UK Wikiproject pages, but not the Scottish one? Anyone disappointed to see Scots appearing on this talk page? Lurker (said · done) 13:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- I posted the notice on the various WikiProjects, as I thought that other people would like to express their views on this matter. The notice was not posted on the WikiProject Scotland talk page but on Wikipedia talk:Scottish Wikipedians' notice board, as instructed at the top of the WikiProject Scotland talk page. Cheers, Jacklee 22:27, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Not sure who had posted the notices on those WikiProject pages. Also, I'm giving up on this discussion - you're correct about the wide usage of things like London, England, Edinburgh, Scotland, Belfast, Northern Ireland and Cardiff, Wales (for example). Hope, someday the people of the UK consider themselve as British primarily. GoodDay 13:57, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think with increasing indepdence to Scottish, Welsh & Northern Irish Parliments/Assemblies, thats very unlikely. And there is a huge difference between the UK and other countries. The UK is four nations united. Italy, France and the others are one nation. If you can't see that I suggest you read the relevant articles. With regards to some of the examples above. I believe that politicians should be described as the nationality of their Parliament (to avoid any confusion, saying G. Brown is a Scottish politician might suggest he a MSP). So UK MPs should be British, MSP Scottish and so on. This avoids any confusion in my opinion. --UpDown 16:13, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- BTW, why was a notice about this debate posted on the English, Northern Irish, Welsh And UK Wikiproject pages, but not the Scottish one? Anyone disappointed to see Scots appearing on this talk page? Lurker (said · done) 13:49, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Because Britain is regarded as a union of countries. If Italy doesn't do that, that's their choice, but Wikipedia should base its articles on facts and not politics. And the fact is that constituent country nationalities are regarded as equally valid as "British", as a look at any UK newspaper will confirm. Lurker (said · done) 13:46, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Oh heck this one again. (By the way what would you do about politicians who've sat in more than one parliament? Let's leave aside people who've sat in two of Westminster, devolved parliaments and the Dail and look at a few others - Richard Casey was in his career a member of the Australian Parliament and Governor General of Australia. But he was also a member of the British War Cabinet in the Second World War and as a peer a member of the House of Lords. Or Ignaz Trebitsch-Lincoln - to quote the reference desk "A Hungarian Jew by birth, he went on to become a Liberal MP in the British House of Commons, who subsequently took part in an abortive right-wing coup in Germany, meeting Hitler in the process, finally dying in China in 1943 as a Buddhist monk and a Japanese agent!")
- Problem 1 - the terms "nation" and "nationality" are rather more fluid than their uses here imply (indeed a lot of "is Scottish a nationality?" seems to hinge more on what nationality means than anything to do with Scottish). This is especially tricky when we're talking about civic nationalism - who is passing down rulings from on high that one nation "exists" and the other doesn't? A lot of political states have "forged the nation" by generating a common sense of national identity based on the political state. Also "nationality" is often used interchangably with "citizenship" (particularly on passports
- Problem 2: The idea the UK is somehow different from other countries is a little hard to swallow (although I think the examples cited aren't always the best) - is there really no dispute as to whether someone from Montreal is "Canadian"/"Quebecer"/"Québécois"?! Many modern day countries in Africa encorporate various existing identities - South Africa has had numerous (as well as black/white/coloured/Indian, there are many different tribes, some of whom embraced the "independence" of the Bantustans, the Afrikaner-British divide which reflects both ethnicity & civic loyalties but also the historic divide between the four old provinces... one can go on for ever on this). Look for instance at this BBC News story [20] about how "South Africa" has gone from being "a small country of just five million people" that a golfer said he came from to one where the rugby captain felt he had "43 million South Africans" behind him in 1995. But there has been a very proactive effort at "South Africanisation" in that country. I think the reason we get these issues far more with the UK than anywhere else is down to having a lot of Users who hold different views on this, whereas a lot of the other countries there's either a language distinction as well that diverts the positions onto other Wikipedias or far fewer Users here.
- Problem 3: Within the individual constituent countries there are very different levels of national identity. Walking around Edinburgh last week I saw far more displays of constituent country identity - saltires flying, shops selling traditional Scottish dress & other products and so forth - than one sees in London. It's been noted in several studies that people from ethnic minorities in England tend to identify as British first and foremost rather than "English" (although the figures can fluctuate, especially during international sports tournaments), perhaps because "English nationalism" has at times been claimed by ethnic nationalists. One survey (I forget where it is online) was rather more rigid about identity and produced results suggesting that overall people narrowly opted for the constituent countries but when you break it down into results by those countries (as that kind of majoritarianism would suggest) the English opt more for "British".
- Problem 4: Historically "English" and "British" were often used interchangably, so even if someone from a past era can be sourced as saying they were "English" it's not clear that they were making the choice the way we'd make it today. For instance Andrew Bonar Law said he was "Prime Minister of England". But Law was born in Canada of Scottish & Northern Irish descent, came to Scotland at the age of 12 where he was educated and built up a business and during his premiership was the MP for Glasgow Central. There's equally the problem with "England" meaning "England and Wales (and Berwick)" for a significant period, and then there's even the question of Monmouthshire (or perhaps that should be eastern Monmouthshire - part of the problem is it's very much a county of two halves that have historically had more in common with their neighbours than with each other) where retroactively applying the modern day "it's Welsh" position as though it was clearcut then is somewhat anachronistic.
- Problem 5: Identity can change depending on the circumstances and many do not feel they have to choose one identity over another. The survey cited above indicated that a lot of people are happy with both "British" and "English" in various proportions and proportions can change. Studies in Northern Ireland have found that a Protestant can feel "British" when contemplating the border, but "Northern Irish" during international football matches and "Irish" during international rugby matches.
- Problem 6: The UK isn't as simple as "four [insert preferred word]" - there's Cornwall, Orkney, Shetland and so forth.
- Problem 7: Too many users seem to think any attempt to settle this by guidelines and Manuals of Style is a covert way to get some ruling to impose one POV, rather than a wish to avoid having to fight the same issues out on every article and have the outcome determined by who lasts the course in revert wars.
- Timrollpickering 21:03, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- I think this has veered too much into the area of how a subject self-identifies (which can be discussed in articles if it's important), whereas I think the lead is supposed to reflect legal national citizenship (whether the law is just or not). Internal political and ethnic conflicts and identity ambiguity can be discussed in the article if relevant. So what about "UK"? This reflects national citizenship more obviously than the more ambiguous "British", and more specifics could follow. Just a thought.
- Also, I think there is a valid analogy to be made between say Scotland/UK, Quebec/Canada, Hawaii/United States, the problems in Belgium, and probably plenty of other contentious national disputes. I'm not absolutely sure what the answer is, but I am wary that the only debate being done here concerns the UK, and that so much weight is being given to polls of how the public self-identifies. I think the opening sentence should stick with legal citizenship realities. Perhaps before this is decided, folks should try to research other similar examples and think through what's most appropriate on a wider scale than just the UK. --Melty girl 21:29, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- The difference between Scotland/UK and Quebec/Canada and Hawaii/United States is that Scotland is a region of unitary state (the UK) which has recently been granted a degree of local government which may be withdrawn at any time, while Quebec and Hawaii are sovereign constituents of federations with powers irrevocably reserved to them. Quebec and Hawaii are far closer to being legal nations than Scotland is. --Michael Johnson 21:38, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- That's just a wee bit condescending! Do you really think Scotland can have its £431m fully-elected Scottish Parliament’s powers ‘withdrawn at any time’! By who? The Queen? It's a little more than a 'granted degree of local government' to say the least! The in-power Scottish Nationalist Party is negotiating support for their planned referendum on independence in 2010. If the SNP get enough support to follow through (and if enough Scottish people show they want it, they most likely will), and the public then vote ‘yes’, Scotland will become an independent country! It’s the buzz in Scotland – and a major possibility.
- So how can Hawaii (of all places!) be ‘closer’ to being a legal nation than Scotland? Hawaii has it’s own legislature (as has Scotland for many years), and Hawaiian arms of the Democratic and Republican Parties, but its hardly more autonomous than many other US States, and it’s not exactly bidding for independence (even if it does have various movements). The USA simply doesn’t give up places it owns! It's far more interested in assimilating new ones, in my opinion. Hawaii lost its nation status when it became the 50th State of America. I would certainly support claims to nationhood (and independence) if the idea and movements were strong enough, though – but I’m not sure of the support. I think the Democrats have held majority power for years. Scotland has always has its own laws, and a strong sense of dependence – now it has a Parliament headed by their organised, popular and long-established national party, it may well achieve it.
- Unlike Hawaii, Quebec is a recognised nation (by Canada). Having been arguably cheated out of ‘sovereignty’ in 1995, it’s odds-on (in my view) they’ll get it their 2010 referendum, though the normally high support seems to have dipped a bit right now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Matt Lewis (talk • contribs) 17:35, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Relying on legal nationality is not such a great idea. What legal nationality was George Washington? Michael Collins? Jan Czyński? Patrick Pearse? Bronisław Szwarce? Problems, problems. Angus McLellan (Talk) 22:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Timrollpickering has raised many valid points. I especially agree with his "Problem 7" – I don't have any vested interest in whether people are referred to as "British" or "English/(Northern) Irish/Scottish/Welsh", and just wanted to find out whether there was any consensus as to which was preferred. If so, "Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)" seemed to be the right place for the consensus to be recorded in the form of a guideline.
I didn't think the issue was going to be a straightforward one. The main problem seems to be whether "nationality" refers to legal citizenship or, for want of a better phrase, "cultural nationality". There are pros and cons for either approach. I'm not sure which direction the debate should take now. Should we:
- Stick to trying to achieve consensus on UK first, leaving the issues of other countries to be dealt with in separate discussions?
- Broaden the debate to whether "nationality" should mean legal citizenship or cultural nationality?
- Admit failure and abandon attempts to formulate a guideline through consensus, leaving the issue to be fought out article by article (which, to me, seems the least desirable option)?
Cheers, Jacklee 23:01, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Or simply avoid plastering nationalities and flags across articles. Mention them only when important. And if it is important it will be verifiable from reliable sources. Angus McLellan (Talk) 23:21, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Look Before you Leap
Jacklee, I see you are from Singapore and studying in the UK. I suggest you learn a bit about the current affairs and history of Northern Ireland, Wales and Scotland – before jumping in to major things like this. I don't mean to be rude, but...
In the UK, we have learnt to deal with describing our identities without rigid rules!
It is particularly important for Northern Ireland, with the sensitive nature of its past troubles and current stability, and for Scotland, where whether to hold a public referendum on attaining full independence from Britain has been a major issue in recent years. My country, Wales, is likely to be swayed by the tide. I am British and Welsh – please, let me decide when I say which one. People (as usual) can edit away on Wikipedia until a happy consensus is found for the article in question!
TWO FACTS YOU NEED TO KNOW!
You might be surprised that ‘Britain’ (and hence the word British) does NOT include Northern Ireland! (you could start by reading the Wikipedia article!). The UK (United Kingdom) is the name for Britain and Northern Ireland! Also, Wales happens not to be represented on the Union Jack (the UK flag). Life is flexible here – we are an island and a 'melting pot' and always were, we have enough problems with rigid ideas of nationalism regarding immigration etc, as it is. Please - let us Celts in particular choose our own ground. (the Celtic countries, by the way, are Wales, Ireland, Northern Ireland and Scotland.) --Matt Lewis 20:39, 25 October 2007 (UTC) --Matt Lewis 21:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
SOME FACTS YOU NEED TO KNOW
- Matt, Pretani (and hence the terms 'Britain', 'Great Britain', 'British', and 'British Isles') DOES include Northern Ireland. In fact, so does the United Kingdom (as you yourself pointed out). England is a Celtic country also, by the way, by virtue of the fact that it was settled by Celts. --Setanta 02:05, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- What? You are say "England is a Celtic country also, by the way, by virtue of the fact that it was settled by Celts." Look again at the way you used 'is' and 'was' in the same sentence. Then read a little about logic - and a little about the Roman invasion too. You are the Setanta who says "they are British whether they like it or not". Nice controlling attitude. --Matt Lewis 16:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Matt, don't bite my head off! I never said I was an expert on things relating to the UK. I just wanted to know whether I ought to state persons as "British" or "English/(Northern) Irish/Scottish/Welsh" in articles, after UpDown reverted some edits that I had made, claiming there was consensus that the latter should be used. Being unable to find anything in the Manual of Style about this, I suggested that perhaps there ought to be a guideline. Of course it's open to people to choose how they wish their nationality to be referred to: see note 3b of the proposed guidelines. The problem comes when there is no evidence of any choice (which would be most of the time). Can there ever be a "happy consensus" if there isn't a guideline agreed on by consensus to follow? I seriously doubt it.
- By the way, I know that Northern Ireland is not part of Great Britain, but according to "British nationality law", residents of Northern Ireland are "British citizens". See also "Northern Ireland", which states that "[p]eople from Northern Ireland can choose to be British citizens on the same basis as people from any other part of the United Kingdom." It seems, then, that it's perfectly valid to refer to people from Northern Ireland as "British". Cheers, Jacklee 22:44, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- Well to really confuse things, isn't "Great Britain" derived from the "British Isles", a term which is used to include Ireland, not the other way round, so "Northern Ireland is British" is not a technically incorrect term. (And yes I'm aware this is a contentious term in Ireland but more with Irish nationalists - I've not heard of Unionists objecting to this one.) Timrollpickering 23:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
- No, Great Britain is derrived from the need for medieval mapmakers to distinguish between two Britains: Britanny and the island of Britain, which were written similarly.
- If you go back for enough, at about the time of the Roman conquest of Britain, the two islands along with Iceland (and sometimes Norway and Denmark!) are called "Islands of Britain" - but the island today called Britain was at that time called Albion (e.g. "Albion, an Island of Britain" and "Hibernia, an Island of Britain", and "Thule, an Island of Britain", "Thule" is thought most likely to be Iceland). This contracted after the Roman invasion, with Britain first referring to the area conquered by the Romans and then, with time, the whole island. (Albion, in some way some ways flipped around too, becoming a mythical-like word in English, but contracting to mean only Scotland, roughly the area of Albion/Britian unconquered by the Romans, in the Celtic languages of Britain and Ireland.) --sony-youthpléigh 13:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- Where does it say in British nationality law that residents of NI are British citizens? MurphiaMan 14:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- It's implied rather than express. "British nationality law#Classes of British nationality" states "British Citizens usually hold this status through a connection with the United Kingdom, Channel Islands and Isle of Man ('United Kingdom and Islands')", and Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom. People from NI don't appear to fall under any of the other five categories of British citizenship. The point is put more clearly in from "Northern Ireland". Cheers, Jacklee 15:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- To muddle things up even further, read Irish nationality law, Ireland, and Northern Ireland to see that Northern Irish people are equally Irish nationals also. Eeeek! --sony-youthpléigh 14:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- With all due respect Matt, "Britain" (and therefore British) does include Northern Ireland, since "Britain" (see the first definition on that page) is commonly used interchangeably with "United Kingdom". Great Britain isn't, but Britain certainly is. -- Necrothesp 15:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Necrothesp – How can you say ‘NI does include Britain’ (your italics) with only your purely subjective reasoning that they are 'commonly' interchanged! You would have better said ‘can include Britain’! AND THAT IS MY POINT!!!!! It depends who you speak to!!!!! So why have rigid rules? PS. Using a Wikipedia disambiguation page to prove your point really makes me despair! Where is the Wikipedia article on just Britain? – there isn’t one! Nor does your 'Britain' (without Great) appear anywhere in the Northern Irish page!!!! Even Wikipedia admits that we shouldn't use Wikipedia to prove Wikipedia!
Jacklee - 'Perfectly valid' just isn’t kind of language to use on Wikipedia regarding nationality and Northern Ireland, whatever document you feel you've cleverly gleaned something from, like some kind of lawyer! The UK is a complex place! Perhaps you could work for the Foreign Office and sort it all out for us? We could use some help on Welsh language road signs in Wales – perhaps you are our man? Croeso I Gymru, my son. I'm trying to tell you that the 'rules' you want cannot and certainly will not be applied by the people of the UK anything like as rigidly as you want them to! We need room to manoeuvre. Please read my above entry again. I suppose I am 'biting your head off' - but it's because you are simply dismissing hard-felt cultural issues surrounding the UK just to make Wikipedia neater and more convenient for people similar to yourself (who have little or no attachment to the UK)!
You must read-up about the UK (which you should have done first), though it’s good you admit you have very little knowledge of us. This is starting to be a whole Wikipedia issue with me though – people fanny around it so carelessly – it really annoys me to be honest, especially with political subjects like this! The UK happens to be deeply complex and diverse! How can people not know that?! Maybe it’s because I’m Welsh I get so cheesed off – so many maps and globes choose not to find space for a label (it is our curse that England is to the right of us), and we are consequently a little less well known internationally. Many of us are particularly keen on placing ‘Wales’ before (or even in place of) British, or UK. We have an economy to look after, after all.
The current 'consensus' I referred to over UK nationalities is unique to each article, and is found though the Wiki process of edits, reverts and discussions – because it cannot be done by a ‘rule book’! And people then settle on someone (or something) being Welsh or British etc by themselves! You see? Many people you are in discussion with are clearly not from the UK – I am - so listen to me! And with your invitation messages in the Scottish, Welsh and Irish discussion pages you are in serious danger of being wound-up by countless merciless Celts! (either that or completely ignored by them).
If someone needs to know what Welsh or Wales etc means – they can surely click on the words can’t they? I usually use the format ‘from Aberystwyth, Wales, UK’ – but why should I force anyone else to? I then tend to use ‘British’ at some point, but I’ve had it changed to ‘Welsh’ and I’ve let it be – why would I not? ‘UK’ usually remains somewhere in the article – which should be enough for any pedant. Using ‘Principality’ however, is a ‘no no’ with me! I think that one is definitely fair game to remove!
It is a truism to say that people cannot always categorise another 'People' (or two, or three) as easily as they seem to want to! Just look around the globe, as someone else has pointed out. Unless you have a deep 'need' for rigid rules, flexibility of expression where nationalities are concerned needn’t be such a terrible thing! Sometimes ‘woolly areas’ like Wales are just a simple fact of life. Forgive me if I keep ramming this home, but you won’t find many conforming like sheep if your guidelines are passed.
By the way – you won’t get a real feeling of anything just by reading the Wikipedia article on it – please read elsewhere too! If I could be left with that on my gravestone I’d die a happy man (the whole line, that is - not just ‘please read elsewhere too’!).
(PS. Your other ‘British’ Guidelines – like leaving nationality out when having no proof - are completely BONKERS too.) --Matt Lewis 18:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- "The current 'consensus' I referred to over UK nationalities is unique to each article" Well yes and no. The problem is that individual consensuses have existed in some areas - for example in sport most international players have been given the nationality for the country they play for. But all too often these get challenged by new editors or changed on the basis that some other article uses a different form or because liks can be found to give a different answer and the result is we get ridiculous constructs like "Scottish tennis player who plays for Great Britain" that just confuses even more (it sounds like someone of one country who plays for another country through exploitation of the grandparent rule or equivalent - even though we just call Greg Rusedski "a former British tennis player", well at least until someone spots this). Frankly in a lot of places it isn't an individual article consensus so much as "which POV can last longer" in revert wars. This in turn causes problems when several people whose nationality is equally clear get written up on the basis of who got there last. That's hardly an ideal solution. Timrollpickering 20:11, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- Oooh matron!
- I’ve honestly never come across any problem, not even awkward constructs that can't be improved by someone till it reads okay. Where do people revert like you say they do? Are you sure this is not all merely a kind of fancy, driven by a rather naughty need for strict discipline?
- And you won't get your 'ideal solution' guys - especially if you try and bring sport into the equation! (it'll be fun watching you try though!) --Matt Lewis 20:43, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm back (after having cooled off); another reason I prefer British over English, Welsh, Scottish, (Northern) Irish? The 'Year' articles- (ex: 2007 etc). It's frustrating to see, in the birth and death sections - Canadian actor, American comedian, English actor, Italian singer, Scottish dancer, etc. GoodDay 22:49, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Matt, I don't see what you're so riled up about. The guideline I'm currently proposing actually permits editors to indicate "English/(Northern) Irish/Scottish/Welsh" in many situations, since there appears to be a consensus that that is the right way to go where the UK is concerned. I agree with Timrollpickering – on balance, there's less harm having a guideline than not having one. At least that way if there's a dispute over whether a consensus exists one way or the other, the guideline provides evidence of the current consensus on the matter. And why is proposed note 3d "completely BONKERS"? It advises that a person's nationality should be left out when it's not clear what the nationality is. Following the example in the rule, if, say, I was born in Singapore but was educated in the UK and worked there for half of my life and in Singapore for the other half, and there was at present no other evidence of my nationality, would it be accurate to state that I was "Singaporean" or "British"? Cheers, Jacklee 05:28, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- That's easy! Based on what we know about you, it's as clear as a bell you're not British! Do you get my point? (silly question...) If someone doesn't know about something they shouldn't be editing it!!!! And what is the current 'harm' in there being no guidlines?! --Matt Lewis 09:54, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Matt, I am well aware that we shouldn't use Wikipedia to prove Wikipedia. I merely provided the link as illustration. I note that nowhere have you provided proof that Britain is not interchangeable with the UK, despite your rant on the subject of people providing proof of their opinions. And while Jack may not be British, I am and I fully understand the differences in terminology. Irish nationalists do not (naturally) regard NI as part of Britain, but most other British people do. Can I prove it? Probably not. Does that mean I'm wrong and you're right? No. And incidentally, may I suggest you calm down and stay civil. -- Necrothesp 12:26, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Matt, just because I'm not British doesn't mean I'm not knowledgable about some topics relating to Britain or that I should be barred from editing all British-related articles. The focus of this discussion is on whether the subjects of biographical articles should be termed "British" or "Welsh [etc.]". That fact is not always evident from available sources, in which case in accordance with proposed note 3d an editor should not make guesses about nationality. I can't understand why you object to that. If the fact can be discerned with some certainty (notes 3b and 3c), then of course nationality may be stated. In dismissing the example I gave you're missing my point. Of course you can discern my nationality based on information provided on my user page, in which case if you were editing a Wikipedia article about me you could state that fact. But in many cases, there won't be such clear evidence and the person's birth place or place(s) of residence may not provide a conclusive answer. In my view having a guideline along the lines I've proposed provides evidence of consensus on the matter, and may help to reduce disputes over how a person's nationality should be indicated. Obviously, if some editors choose to ignore it not much can be done about that, except reverting their changes. Cheers, Jacklee 13:53, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm in agreement; British editors are not the custodians of British related articles. GoodDay 14:08, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Don't be so over-dramatic guys!
No-one is suggesting ‘barring’ anyone not British! But as a Welsh Brit, I’m entitled to demand that people know what they are talking about, especially if they are playing around with somebody else’s nationality (and doubly especially if it’s my own)! And it’s not 'uncivil' to highlight the simple flaws on your kind of argument, Necrothesp - and your 'tit for tat' reply just kind of proved my point!
And as for your comment on your proposed guidelines, Jacklee ("Obviously, if some editors choose to ignore it not much can be done about that, except reverting their changes.") – that is exactly what I’m worried about! You and your guideline-followers will have to keep reverting articles to fit the guidelines! Reverting will get a lot worse then than you imagine it already is (and I don’t believe the current reverting/arguments are anything like as bad as you are falsely claiming just to push your guidelines through!). So why fix something that isn’t broken? And have you really got the ego to remove ‘Wales’ from an article just because you can’t find proof of Welsh nationality, and no-one else has given it? Don’t you have anything better to do with your time? To me it really is bonkers.
If there was the ’easy answer’ about Britishness that you so want, there wouldn’t be a problem in the first place – and simple guidelines would already be there! They are not there because Britain exists as a flexible construct – and always has! The success of Scottish independence and the likelihood of devolution was in the papers and on the news this morning – why not read or watch something like that for an idea about how we see ourselves? And don’t be so rude to say you are not really touching things like that. Look at the lines drawn through Africa, the mess around Jerusalem, countries like Belgium, Russia, China, Spain, Northern Ireland – I wish the world could fit into simple definitions, I really do! But push or guide people into ‘convenient’ slots – and you only stir up trouble. --Matt Lewis 21:19, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- Matt, why do you allege that other editors are trying to "push... people into 'convenient' slots"? The effect of note 3e of the latest version of the proposed guidelines is that in appropriate circumstances (i.e., when notes 3b and 3c apply) "English [etc.]" may be used instead of "British", since there are a number of editors who think this is the preferred approach. This seems to be entirely in line with the views you've expressed. The whole idea behind the proposed guidelines is to record consensus on the issue in an article that is easy for other editors to locate.
- You express concern over proposed rule 3d. Don't you agree that unreferenced facts should not be inserted into articles? I don't go around randomly removing "Scottish [etc.]" from articles (yes, I have better things to do than that), but if I happen to be editing an article that I'm interested in why shouldn't I, if neither notes 3b or 3c are satisfied? What you seem to be suggesting is that editors should be free to insert "Welsh [etc.]" into articles with little or no basis, but that other editors should not remove such attributions.
- You said earlier that "[p]eople (as usual) can edit away on Wikipedia until a happy consensus is found for the article in question". If there's a dispute over whether a person should be described as "British" or "English [etc.]", it is not likely that a "happy consensus" will be reached. (And at no time did I say the situation was very bad, so I do not appreciate your allegation that I made a false claim.) Why not try to achieve consensus over the guidelines now? Cheers, Jacklee 22:52, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
- I'm trying to tell you that it is a different matter for each article! You would have to cover all possiblilies - and what's the point in that? And if a dispute is meaningful it would actually be explained in the article anyway! By trying to work it out universally now, you are trying to squash us into one convenient blob - even if you don't see it!! On council forms and the like I can often put that I am Welsh, or a UK citizen, or British (and the same with using the postal service) – no one minds because we know what we mean and because we can't enforce even guidelines without offending people. And why offend people?? Wikipedia links to itself - so anyone here who doesn't know where Wales is can soon find out! How do you actually expect to find a collective consensus ‘first’ anyway? How will it happen? Honestly, the only consensus over your guidelines I can envisage would end up with something that simply gives a list of facts about the countries, and states the ways that are used to refer to them (but would that be a guideline? In fact what use would it be?). It’s a rule thing too – you don't seem to get it. Look back at earlier comments on NI (and Scotland) rather than Wales - if that helps --Matt Lewis 00:13, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- Sooo, because many British describe themselves as English, Scottish, Welsh and (Northern) Irish (and foreigners describe them as such, aswell), Wikipedia should reflect this; even though it differs from the others countries of the world. Begrudingly, I'm starting to accept this (as it is what is, not what I want it to be). GoodDay 18:28, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Matt, I'm sorry, but referring to other people's comments (and I wasn't actually referring to mine) as "completely bonkers" and implying they don't know what they're talking about is uncivil. You should be able to voice your opinions (and they are only opinions) without resorting to that. I'm not actually disagreeing with most of what you say, but ranting at those who may disagree with some of it is not helping. We all have strong opinions, but it's best to stay polite. -- Necrothesp 09:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, Matt, I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree on the desirability of having a Manual of Style guideline on this matter. — Cheers, JackLee –talk • contribs • count– 15:21, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- You just take it all so lightly!! You cannot mean that all people who are against having guidlines (like me) should 'agree to disagree' with people who are for them (like you)? That would mean keeping things as they are! I expect you just mean me and you - but I'm arguing the points, not you (and it's one you should understand that I am serious about) - so I will carry on, point by point, 'til I decide to stop! --Matt Lewis 16:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The Facts
The facts are that nationality, in the strictest sense when relating to the United Kingdom, is British. I may be an Ulsterman, for example, but that is not my nationality - it's an ethnicity. Citizens of the United Kingdom all have one thing in common: they are British - whether they like it or not. --Setanta 02:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- Even if they have 2 passports? MurphiaMan 06:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- Begrudingly, I'm starting to accept these English, Scottish, Welsh and (Northern) Irish terms. Even the international community uses this terms, in place of British. GoodDay 18:31, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- A passport is not the be-all and end-all of citizenship. A passport is merely a document which offers proof that a country has accepted a person as a citizen thereof.
- To answer your question though, MurphiaMan: yes - Citizens of the United Kingdom all have one thing in common: they are British - whether they like it or not... even if they are citizens of other countries as well. --Setanta 03:27, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Should anyone admit to some bias here? As someone else pointed out, being pro-'British' is as loaded as, say, being pro-'Scottish'. It is a deep political feeling for some to actually be British - perhaps that needs pointing out more. Life has been lost over this, after all. --Matt Lewis 17:35, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Charles Darwin
Since this example was raised, I've just had a quick glance in the talkpage archives. It seems the only point where this came up was briefly here: Talk:Charles Darwin/Archive 2#Nationality and not generated much discussion there. However the opening description subsequently changed again - my guess is as a result of a merger of various texts due to discussion here Talk:Charles Darwin/Archive 3#Informal review II: content which seems to have been about how to sum up Darwin's scientific contribution and nationality wasn't raised one way or the other.
And that's it it seems, unless there was a revert war that didn't leave a single trace on the talk page (or I've overlooked if it did). Certainly the point hasn't come up in the formal GA and FAC process. But I think this is probably because most people don't regard this as a yay or nay issue for FA status, especially if a wider edit war hasn't yet reached the article. Timrollpickering 23:14, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Where are we now?
Well my summary is...
- The subject of British (etc) nationality is complex and controversial. Strongly-held diverse views have been expressed above. The people of the UK do not have a simple view of nationality, with opinion polls indicating that most of them think they are some combination of British plus Scottish/Welsh/Irish/English.
- There is a school of thought which says that we should use "British" as the nationality for all citizens of the UK. This has some merit in being simple, verifiable and having a meaningful legal status in the UK and internationally. However, it is unlikely ever to achieve any kind of consensus. Also, some of the subjects of Wikipedia articles strongly dissociate themselves from "Britishness".
- There is another school of thought which says that we don't need a guideline at all: we just discuss it at the article level, if necessary, and reach consensus there. The argument against this is that consensus at the article level can mean "which POV can last longer in revert wars".
- If we don't go for either the ubiquitous British or no guidelines at all options, there are some clear-cut cases where we might reach a consensus. For instance:
- People who have associated themselves with a particular nationalist cause (eg Sean Connery - Scottish)
- People who have dissociated themselves from a particular nationalist cause (I think Peter Green is an example of someone who doesn't like "English" and is therefore British).
- People whose lives have been too complex to assign them to anything other than British (maybe John Martyn: born in England, lives in Ireland, speaks with a Glaswegian accent.)
- People primarily associated with national sporting teams.
- That then leaves a lot of people who don't fit into those categories. Here, again, I think there is a division of views. Some would argue that if someone is born in (for example) England and spends most of their life there, it is obvious that we call them "English". The contrary view is that nationality concerns how "people prefer to describe themselves" and that, without any direct verifiable evidence of their preference, we should default to the legal nationality of "British".
Is this a fair summary of the arguments and the possible options and choices? Bluewave 15:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, thanks for this. I was going to attempt a summary but am glad that you've beat me to it. I think you've captured the essence of the discussion so far, and would point out that each of the cases you've identified as matters upon which consensus might be reached are all reflected in the current version of my proposed guideline which is indicated above. There is one more issue – whether the debate should be widened to whether "nationality" should mean legal citizenship or "cultural nationality". I think it would be preferable to try and achieve consensus on the existing cases (ie, the UK situation first) before moving on to that wider issue. — Cheers, JackLee –talk • contribs • count– 15:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Generally agree, but some for small niggly points (e.g. chosing to be British to the exception of ENG/SCO/WAL/etc. is as much choosing a nationalist association as the other way around). Would add the complexity of Ireland - If we go with all from the UK being British, then logically anyone 1801-1922 from the 26 counties is "British" - that ain't going to go down, as well as being historically retrospective. Also, the complexity of Northern Ireland doesn't bode well for a policy of labelling people from NI as "British", nor is it accurate or verifiable, they could just as simplistically be labelled "Irish" if we are to use legal nationality. (While I'm mentioning retrospecitive histories, "British" as we mean it today is quite new. Even on Britain, Scottish/English is historically the stronger identifier, both internally and externally.)
- Finally, Jack's suggestion to widen the debate on whether "nationality" should mean legal citizenship or "cultural nationality" is a back door argument to label everyone British by blanking other arguments out. The very fact that we cannot reach agreement on this point is down to the fact that legal citizenship alone, in the case of the UK at least, is a dud. --sony-youthpléigh 16:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I'd agree on the main points listed, although with sport there may be a few clarifiers needed.
- 1). If I remember correctly the FIFA rules "fix" a player's national team at the adult level so it may be possible that some players have played for multiple countries in their career.
- 2). What do we do for players whose career straddles changes in the teams? The only UK related ones I can think of involve the two Irish football teams - the pre partition team carried on as an All Ireland Belfast based team until the 1950s when FIFA made it become Northern Ireland only; a new Dublin All Ireland team was founded in the 1920s and became a Republic only team in the 1950s and there are players who variously played for both and for pre&post (football) partition teams (the Home Nations were not in FIFA between the wars). (And it's possible the solution found may be a precedent for, say, the various Yugoslavia and successor teams.)
- 3). Then there's "diaspora" players like Greg Ruzedski - again shall we just take the country they play for?
- 4). What do we for sports that are generally played individually - Andy Murray has been a source of particular revert wars and even arguments over how "official" some Scotland vs England match he was once in counts.
- 5). What about people who are notable in more than one field - e.g. Ken Maginnis who's both a very prominent supporter of the All Ireland Rugby Team (so "Irish") and a prominent Ulster Unionist politician (so "British")?
- A couple of others:
- 6). With regards "where they've lived all the time" I think this is going to be a very messy rule of thumb, especially as studies have also found most non-white people living in England regard themselves as "British" and see "English" as an ethnicity.
- 7). What about politicians - is it best to use which level the politics they operate at (with exemptions for those in one constiuent country only parties)? Timrollpickering 16:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
"Is this a fair summary of the arguments and the possible options and choices?" No - Only because unfortunately you ended with the line "we should default to the legal nationality of "British" - and that is all some people want to read!!!!! To be honest, I don't feel you were strong enough about political feeling, especially bearing in mind that some people clearly genuinely feel it shouldn't be allowed to get in the way of rules. Now isn't that just the story of discontentment? There is one particular guy (from Belfast) here who is fervently pro-British - do we need all this? And regarding sport, all I will say is that it's just not cricket! Are the lazy-minded pedants going to sort the ECB out too? I haven't got time to explain everything - it's up to people to look into things properly. --Matt Lewis 17:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- Matt. You seem to be objecting to my summary on the basis that, if you extract one phrase, out of context, it argues for particular point of view. The summary was supposed to include all the main points of view that have been expressed and you might have picked out "we don't need a guideline at all" or "it is obvious that we call them English". With regard to the politics, I (perhaps naively) thought the focus of the guidelines should be on the political feelings of the subjects of Wikipedia articles, not those of individual editors. Bluewave 09:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think you missed the bitter irony! Your summary covered a lot - but the real problems here to me are the clear dismissal of politics by some who want to just push this through, and also that some people are focusing singularly on sentences that seem to fit in with a possible guideline - and it can't work like that. You final line was a gift - check out the response! I just tried to bring those two points out - sorry if I sounded rude. Summaries can include emotive language when about emotive issues - and, politically, this is an emotive issue. --Matt Lewis 16:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Northern Irish is a special case because of the different laws pertaining to nationality and citizenship.--Vintagekits 20:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
- My thoughts:
- It may well be that a person's legal or "cultural" nationality may not correspond with the country that he or she plays a sport for. In such a case, it should be made clear that while the person is of a certain nationality he or she plays for one or more countries.
- The proposed rule that states it's acceptable to put down "Welsh [etc.]" if a person is born there and spends most of his or her life there may be a little vague, but it seems the best that can be formulated at this point. It legitimizes a practice that many editors adopt. If better evidence of nationality (e.g., a newspaper article) turns up, the attribution can be affirmed or amended and the evidence cited in a footnote.
- Sony-youth, by raising the question whether the debate should be widened to considering whether "nationality" should mean legal citizenship or "cultural nationality", it certainly wasn't my intention to covertly "label everyone British by blanking other arguments out". I was merely taking up a point that another editor had raised, and as you can see from my earlier remarks I actually felt that we shouldn't try to deal with that wider issue right now.
- I'm not sure about the Northern Ireland issue, which seems to be a special case. If either "British" or "Irish" is felt to be unacceptable as a default in the absence of evidence, perhaps people from that region should just be described as "from Northern Ireland".
- Matt, you are quite happy to permit editors to insert "English [etc.]" as they wish – and as Bluewave has stated in his summary there may be consensus for editors to do so where there is sufficient evidence such as birth and long residence in a particular place. But you appear to be objecting to the use of "British" even when there is no such evidence. Really, you can't have it both ways. And calling people "lazy-minded pedants" doesn't help one way or another.
- — Cheers, JackLee –talk • contribs • count– 00:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm pretty much with Jack here (I think).
- English/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish if a person is known to have expressed a particular preference, although if born and brought up elsewhere I think "XXX-born" should be added (e.g. "Scottish-born Welsh").
- English/Scottish/Welsh/Northern Irish if a person (has) lived almost all their lives in one country and is not specifically known to have expressed a preference to be known as British.
- British where a person (has) moved around and is not known to have expressed a preference for any particular ethnicity or anyone who is specifically known to have expressed a preference to be known as British.
- -- Necrothesp 11:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm pretty much with Jack here (I think).
- My thoughts:
- These are quite subjective don't you think? Judging how much someone feels one thing or another. Asking if they have moved around much. (For verifiability they also default to "British" in all but the most exceptional circumstances also.) I (think I) get what you mean, but it kind of puts us where we are right now, doesn't it?
- How about just codify the current observable consensus (based on how people edit articles), rather than trying to make one up here: for people from the UK is an exception to the current guideline. Use Britsh/English/Scottish/Welsh/(Northern) Irish as agreed on an article-by-article basis. --sony-youthpléigh 11:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Of course it's subjective. It can't be anything else given the subject. The problem is that there is no agreement or consensus. It's all very well saying that this should be done on an article-by-article basis, but that won't stop the people who go around changing the nationality in every article they can find on a British person to their own perception of what that nationality should be. I am merely laying out my own opinions on the matter and the way I write articles, which is, I think, a fairly balanced way of doing it. -- Necrothesp 12:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- One other problem - Cornish. IIRC the current consensus has been that people from Cornwall are to be described as "British" not "English" but I can't remember where this is set down. (And has there ever been discussion on how Orkney & Shetland are covered - I've read that some consider being called "Scottish" even worse than being called "English"!) Timrollpickering 12:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Again, that's not necessarily accurate for everybody. I'm Cornish, but I would give my "nationality" as English. It's generally only Cornish nationalists (a small minority) who object strongly to the description. -- Necrothesp 12:22, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- One other problem - Cornish. IIRC the current consensus has been that people from Cornwall are to be described as "British" not "English" but I can't remember where this is set down. (And has there ever been discussion on how Orkney & Shetland are covered - I've read that some consider being called "Scottish" even worse than being called "English"!) Timrollpickering 12:16, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- Oh for Pete’s sake! I'm having what "both ways"? That’s just a lazy and wild stab to discredit me – it’s not related to anything – it’s just a ‘suggestive’ stab! How flippin dare you suggest I have something against the word 'British'! Have you read "anything" I have written? A single word?? I have CLEARLY AND REPEATEDLY objected to anyone creating guidelines because we need individual flexibility of national expression in the UK! It's how we get on here! As I have said before, I myself happen to be incredibly proud of being both Welsh and British (for very personal reasons) - the point is that I decide I can be this – and I decide when I use British and when I use Welsh - and I won't accept any disparate group of people ratifying anybody’s 'guide' for me to follow – because guides refer to rules. It's the same for people I know who are just Welsh etc – they don’t want to be told how to do it. Did you know that WP founder Jimbo Wales actually wanted to remove all the ‘rigid’ political info boxes – because he knew the disagreements they stir cannot be dealt with by guidelines? His philosophy is to use balanced text in the article, and to leave it to us. I’ll tell you now - the UK citizens most happy with your kind of guidelines would be English Conservatives and NI Protestants (and you have support here), the ones the most against would generally be the burgeoning Scottish nationalists, and NI Catholics. Wales is pretty mixed, and the word ‘England’ (and especially the use of it’s flag) has grown in marked popularly in recent years – everyone in the UK has remarked on that. There is nothing any self-important people here can do to change the reality of being a UK citizen! Any WP guidelines would have to be about consensus, but you simply won't find it across the UK on nationality! As life has to go on, we incorporate (on the whole) each others notions, labels and views on a "flexible" day-to-day level. Over a number of posts now, I have given quite a few examples of the complex nature of the UK (supporting a consistently clear argument) - all of which you have studiously ignored. But even a war of attrition cannot be won here! (I hope anyway – my dystopia is a Wikipedia that’s 100% canards, colour and cant – and there’s no one left who’s wise enough to know!).
- I must also defend my tone of voice, as you highlight it. I have to say first that I find your guideline proposal a personal affront to my national identity – as you are (ultimately) trying to structure how I can express myself. It’s implicit, but you can’t hide from it. Regarding my “lazy pedants” comment, isn’t it lazy to keep having to admit how little knowledge of the UK you have? Where is your research? Some wisdom and knowledge of politics, history and world affairs would go not amiss either. Nationalism and national identity are hardly trivial matters! I also feel that you (as the creator of this proposed guideline) have given very little time to properly understand my contributions – yet you do refer to them. And it is fair to say pedant, because you tend to pick out convenient little details (or even admonish the tone) rather than focus on the points that are raised. Such a structure as the UK is awash with little details, which will sometimes contradict each other – you could probably go on forever cherry-picking certain useful ‘facts’- but they will never build you an acceptable guideline! People don’t use complicated details to describe their nationhood – they generally use passion! And these guidelines are about how people can describe (in a single word!) a nationality, are they not? Also, you cannot deny that you have consistently made it clear that the very neatness of your numbered box of 'guidelines' is more important than any matter that has, so far, been held against them! You just can't seem to accept that a flexibility of expression is needed by UK citizens - however annoyingly untidy it may seem to impatient passers by. Saving writing all that, I thought maybe ‘lazy pedant’?
- And, by the way, your new fancy multi-coloured signature takes up 7 lines of code on my edit box. If we ever needed a guideline - jeez! Sorry – I just can't be monosyllabic about this (and I’m not able to do false politeness) – this is not a WP status fantasy to me – it’s about my Britain - it's eventful past, it's troubled present, it's uncertain future - all the things you choose to ignore, and I care passionately about. I also find Wikipedia a terrifying prospect for the entire world. Hasn’t anyone noticed that half of us here are barking mad? --Matt Lewis 16:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
- As pointed out in my previous posts on this matter, Originally, I felt British was the correct term to use, period. However, common-usage backs English, Scottish, Welsh and (Northern) Irish (as I pointed out, even the International community uses these). It sure is a balancing act, to say the least. GoodDay 15:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Matt, what happened to trying to work with others toward consensus? Others here seem much more willing to listen to others and actually work out a compromise. Your voluminous, over-emotional, and often uncivil commentary has driven me away from this conversation, and perhaps it has others too. You might want to rethink your approach in the future. --Melty girl 18:59, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- As pointed out in my previous posts on this matter, Originally, I felt British was the correct term to use, period. However, common-usage backs English, Scottish, Welsh and (Northern) Irish (as I pointed out, even the International community uses these). It sure is a balancing act, to say the least. GoodDay 15:13, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi - hi! Hi - I just wanted to say what lovely people you all are and how nice it is to be here! Er, I don't think we need guidelines here really. ok? ok - thanks for listening to me - ok? ok, er, bye.. bye. --Matt Lewis 19:55, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Come on guys, keep these comments on your personal pages. GoodDay 20:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Use Welsh, Scottish etc. You don't need to add British because that's inherent in those nationalities. At least just use one or the other, both is just unnecessary. And Jacklee, given Ioan Gruffudd identifies himself very strongly as a Welshman, for what it's worth I think he'd think Welsh was the way to go. 121.220.58.198 09:43, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, Matt:
- On tone – I disagree that your strong feelings on the subject justify your tone. The way you write does not assume others are talking about the matter in good faith and tends towards stifling discussion. And it deflects attention from the focus of the discussion, exactly what you counsel against.
- On guidelines – no one has said this is not a complex or controversial issue. That doesn't mean there shouldn't be a guideline on it. What are guidelines for? To record consensus and compromises, and to provide guidance for editors who need assistance with certain issues. Not all editors who edit biographical articles about UK people are themselves from the UK, and there will be some UK editors who feel they need guidance on the matter as well. Will there ever be complete consensus on the issue at hand? Probably not. But as Bluewave has summarized above, one compromise is to have a guideline recognizing that some editors have a preference for indicating "Scottish, [etc.]" when there are sufficient grounds for this attribution, and for indicating "British" when there aren't. We will have to agree to disagree on the need for guidelines on this matter.
- How do you like the new streamlined signature? :) — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 22:46, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
- Hi, Matt:
- "Record compromises"??! You are talking like this is some kind of international peace treaty! I honestly wonder where some of you guys are coming from! The rule of VETO in this case MUST apply – if a significant group of people feel like I do (believe me I’m not alone) then a tiny group of disparate ‘computer owners’ cannot be allowed to push a guideline through – even if they get over 50% in a tree house vote! Too many people take WP far too seriously for political guidelines like this. Remember Jimmy Wales on nations! Also remember WP on consensus – “Wikipedia's decisions are not based on the number of people who showed up and voted a particular way on a particular day”.
- Didn't I answer "agree to disagree" before? Talk about war of attrition! (I get the message though - you refuse to read me due to tone, and you're prepared to begin at your own beginning ad nauseam)
- Anyone see the Crying Game on TV last night, by the way? The (Northern) Irish protagonist allowed himself to be called Scottish the whole film by the gay cross-dresser he was falling in love with. Just a thought. --Matt Lewis 16:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- Notice how the (Northern) Irish protagonist wanted to shield his identity from the the gay cross-dresser he was falling in love with? --sony-youthpléigh 01:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- Of course. But why? What was Neil Jordan saying about identity? --Matt Lewis 02:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- That those of us that care about our celtic nationality are totally gay?;-) MurphiaMan 07:36, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- Of course. But why? What was Neil Jordan saying about identity? --Matt Lewis 02:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- This is a good point JL (even more streamlined!) - from memory there certainly were a couple of points that people agreed on, e.g.
- A member of the Westminster cabinet should be called "British"
- Anyone with an expressed British/English/Scottish/etc. identity should be put down as that.
- The 26 counties should be Irish (or, in some notable cases, Anglo-Irish e.g. Duke of Wellington)
- I'm sure there are more. Maybe start with these. --sony-youthpléigh 13:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- Notice how the (Northern) Irish protagonist wanted to shield his identity from the the gay cross-dresser he was falling in love with? --sony-youthpléigh 01:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- Anyone see the Crying Game on TV last night, by the way? The (Northern) Irish protagonist allowed himself to be called Scottish the whole film by the gay cross-dresser he was falling in love with. Just a thought. --Matt Lewis 16:53, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- When I read a line like “A member of the Westminster cabinet should be called "British"” I suppose my personal problem is I find that kind of language unsuitable here (even if it wasn’t phrased that way in a guideline). Like WP founder Jimbo Wales, I think that WP just isn’t the place for this kind of detailing. It might come down to what we want WP to be – I personally hope to god it will never see itself as an authority on theses matters.
- Also (just as an extra thought – not meant to be part of my direct argument) I bump into quite a lot of young and old internet-users who haven’t fully understood the “Wiki” nature of WP – which does scare me. At the moment, WP is filling the top of the screen with (pretty anonymous) quotes describing it as the greatest encyclopaedia ever – there is not much that explicitly explains to people dropping into a page that it maybe (or is often likely in certain political matters) contaminated. (or to go further, with bluff, bias and lies!).--Matt Lewis 17:43, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- Nice'n'all that your musings on Wikipedia are ... ummm, back onto topic - since it's clear that many people do want guidance on when to use "British" and when to use ENG/SCO/WAL/IRE (as I wrote before, I'm not one of them), would you agree that one thing everyone agrees on (as demonstrated by what happens in fact) is that members of the UK central government (or whatever kind of language you do find suitable) should be called "British"? And so, this could be drawn up into a guideline at least. Or is it just guidelines that you don't like (as a matter of your own personal policy)?
- To draw up a line that was said to you earlier, maybe you might considerer chilling your tone, Matt, when dealing with other editors. If you make life uncomfortable for those you are supposed to be engaging in collaboration with then there's little likelihood that we'll have any Wiki in this 'pedia. --sony-youthpléigh 19:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
- Everything I say is relevant - in a roundabout way! Try and envision the wisdom of having no guidelines on this matter at all (kind of like we always have been doing..) – it’s the clever idea I’m trying to get across. I’m trying various methods of doing it, but it seems to be a bit over the brainbow, like one of those difficult IQ questions – and some people consequently won’t acknowledge it, however many examples or tacks I use. --Matt Lewis 01:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm for the wisdom of no guidelines (as I wrote above in a non-roubabout way), others want guidance. It's give and take, Matt, working with others. What I'm suggesting is that we start with the things that we agree on. --sony-youthpléigh 01:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- Just curious. How many guidelines do we have on this subject? GoodDay 15:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm for the wisdom of no guidelines (as I wrote above in a non-roubabout way), others want guidance. It's give and take, Matt, working with others. What I'm suggesting is that we start with the things that we agree on. --sony-youthpléigh 01:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- I am trying to understand the argument for having no guidelines. It seems to be based on the view that UK nationality requires great flexibility, but I am struggling to see what this flexibility means. If it refers to the complexity of nationality issues in the UK, and the corresponding difficulty in drawing up meaningful guidelines, I would argue that this is a reason for having guidelines: only with guidelines will there be any sort of consistent approach to that complexity. If, on the other hand, it means that individual editors need the flexibility to make their own decisions about people's nationality, in the absence of citable sources, then this sounds like even more of a reason for a guideline! I'm obviously missing something, here - what is it? Bluewave 15:29, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- (- -----) ;-) Matt Lewis 02:00, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
- And I'm trying to understand the 'resistance' to using British for all British biographies. Keeping in mind that English, Northern Irish, Welsh and Scottish are used (and sourced), the cry that British usage is offensive is a lame excuse IMHO. GoodDay 18:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- I certainly agree, which is why it is pointless to even discuss this further. Simple fact is that we have a lot of emotional wrecks and POV-pushers on Wikipedia in relation to this subject and generally they must be included in any consensus. It's an absolutely ridiculous position, which leads to countless edit wars and other problems, but at the moment the absence of a solution is the only way we can move forward.
- And I'm trying to understand the 'resistance' to using British for all British biographies. Keeping in mind that English, Northern Irish, Welsh and Scottish are used (and sourced), the cry that British usage is offensive is a lame excuse IMHO. GoodDay 18:47, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- I will never give support to any guideline which gives an Anglo/Britannocentric view of the constituent countries of the UK and as such I will never back any guidelines which institute special treatment for Scottish, English, Welsh and Northern Irish identities. Plenty will not support use of the word British except where absolutely necessary. It's not something which you, or any of us, will ever solve. --Breadandcheese 18:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Arbitrary section break
(Deindent) For what it's worth, here is what Wikipedia:Manual of Style (flags)#Use of flags for non-sovereign states and nations says in this area:
- The exact definition of a "state", "nation" or "country" is often politically divisive and can result in debates over the choice of flag. For example, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are referred to by the British government as "countries" within the United Kingdom [21]; the Canadian government recently recognised the Québécois as "a nation within a united Canada.";[22] and the United States recognizes many Native American tribal groupings as semi-independent "nations". Some people may feel stronger identification with such entities than with the wider state of which they are a citizen, and editors sometimes choose, for example, to use an English flag rather than a British one. Such choices can cause debates, or can sometimes mislead if the editor's own political bias is the motivation for the choice, and does not represent the views of the article subject.
- In general, if a flag is felt to be necessary, it should be that of the sovereign state (e.g. the United States of America or Canada) not of a subnational entity, even if that entity is sometimes considered a "nation" or "country" in its own right. This is partly for the sake of consistency across Wikipedia, but also because a person's legal citizenship is verifiable, whereas "nationality" within a country can be porous, indeterminate and shifting; an English person's passport describes them as "British", for example, not "English", and being English is a matter of self-identification, not verifiable legality in most cases. Many editors, however, feel that the UK's subnations in particular are an exception, most especially in sporting contexts, and disputes are likely to arise if this sovereign state maxim is enforced in articles on subnational British topics.
...and of course the reverse applies as well as some of the examples linked show.
In terms of whether we need guidelines or not, I think frankly something has to be set down covering the UK, not least because so many Wikipedia policies (let alone consensuses) use terms like "country", "nation" and "nationality" without always covering set-ups such as the UK (which is not a unique situation) and individual pages are often left with these arguments that do often drift into how the terms are basically applied. Then even when something has been sorted, someone comes along and changes it "in line with other relevant pages", then others start changing those pages to try and fit everything their way. Currently Tim Henman is described as "a former English tennis player" in spite of the fact that in international tennis the country one plays for is "Great Britain" - these seems to be an overspill of debate about Andy Murray (see Talk:Andy Murray (tennis) for long threads) and note that neither page is currently consistent with Greg Rusedski who is currently just "a former British tennis player". Leaving it to individual article consensus isn't really working since a) a lot of the time consensus seems hard to reach; b) even when consensus can be reached the whole can of worms gets reopened when a biography of another person in the same field becomes an edit war; and, most importantly of all, c) the overall presentation of the information across the encyclopedia is diminished and the reader (who we're doing this for after all) is left confused as to how it all works (and keeping to the tennis examples, this is particularly messy for a sport where in the tournaments that get the most attention in the UK the players play individually but where there are also team tournaments, so it gets very silly when the teams players play for aren't clear). It's clear from a lot of editors that there is both confusion and frustration over the way this debate goes round and round in circles. The point of guidelines and style-guides is to aid people writing so that things are consistent and to avoid having the same fight time and time again. It's not about trying to impose rules of "nationality" onto people. Timrollpickering 17:41, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Bluewave and Timrollpickering's recent comments. The reason why I raised this point for discussion in the first place was because I had been using the attribution "British" in some articles, and another editor reverted them on the basis that there was "consensus" the other way, which I couldn't find any evidence of. As regards the use of a veto in discussions, that is not my understanding of how Wikipedia works. I quote from "Wikipedia:Consensus": "Minority opinions typically reflect genuine concerns, and discussion should continue in an effort to try to negotiate the most favorable compromise that is still practical. ... [A] course of action should be chosen that is likely to satisfy the most persons (rather than merely the majority)." [Emphasis added.] Matt, you are probably right that there are other editors out there who agree it is preferable not to have guidelines on this matter. But none of them have chosen to participate in this discussion, even though notice was given on several WikiProject talk pages. Perhaps in future the issue might be reopened for further discussion (see "Wikipedia:Consensus#Consensus can change"), but I think there is consensus at the moment that there do need to be guidelines. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 17:56, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think we would be wise to take counsel from the flag debate as quoted above, and I think Timrollpickering and Jacklee make very valuable points too. And I would suggest that it is a bad sign that this discussion has reached the low of debating whether a guideline should be put in place at all. The very length of this page and the recurring nature of the debate itself clearly indicate that guidelines of some kind are called for. It is extremely unWiki-like to suggest that the answer is to have no guideline, and it seems disrespectful of those who are trying to solve this very real problem to push to have no guideline at all. I would encourage everyone who's been spending their valuable time trying to problem-solve here not to waste much time debating the unhelpful no guideline suggestion. --Melty girl 19:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
- Ok, good points, and I'm being won over to the "guidelines" side (actually won back - way, way back in time I wanted a British-Irish MOS, and would still advise liasing with the WP:IMOS on this as that is an established MOS that guides language use in Northern Ireland and the 26 counties prior to 1922 and post independence). The problem, I see is what GoodDay comments on - "it would be soooo much easier to simply use British" - yes, so much easier, but we are not in the business of air brushing reality just because it easier to forget the facts. There are, however, things that we can agree on. Timrollpickering points are very enlightening - if a person is known for something which is on a UK(or GB)-wide basis then "British" is better. So, Tim Henman is a British sportsman, but David Beckham is an English sportsman. Likewise, Gordon Brown is a British politician, but Jack McConnell is a Scottish politician. (I am a little touchy about this however, since in my experience Henman is much more a star of England's eye - not to mention the "English tennis player wins/British tennis player loses" fiascos!)
- I would also support the use of constructions like this in the info box:
- These type of construction almost won consensus before. I only just noticed that the wording in passports in "British Citizen", not simply "British". I don't think it co-incidental, we are not the only people to have argued over this. I wouldn't be surprised if the reason for the "British Citizen" constuction on passports (instead of blanket descriptions of all people as "British") was to overcome the very same difficulty that we are having here. Dealing with reality has it's advantages - other people have usually encountered the same problems before. --sony-youthpléigh 13:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think UK Citizen (English) is less loaded -- and shorter. --Melty girl 16:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Can go with that too, or United Kingdom (English). I would not link to mix the two, like: British (English). --sony-youthpléigh 16:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- "British Citizen" means something specific under British nationality law: "UK citizen" does not. I would caution against making up terminology, even if it is less loaded. Bluewave 16:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- There aren't citizens of the UK? Well, in that case, United Kingdom (English) is good. --Melty girl 17:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that you can't describe someone as being a citizen of the UK...just that it's not a meaningful designation of nationality! "United Kingdom (English)" looks fine to me, but I suspect the really difficult thing to get consensus on is whether a particular person is "United Kingdom (English)" or "United Kingdom (British)" in cases where there is no citable reference (eg membership of a national sporting team) to suggest which is appropriate. I did a quick straw poll of some friends at the weekend and despite the fact that all of them have spent most of their lives in England (and Britain, of course) they were pretty evenly divided between those who think their nationality is "English" and those who say they are "British". I'm not suggesting my friends are representative of all the subjects of Wikipedia articles, but I think this is one of the central difficulties of resolving UK nationality. Bluewave 17:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- We could of course just avoid nationality all together. So, outside of clearly agreed cases (such as British politician, English sportsman, like above - if that is agreed), we just avoid mentioning nationality on UK articles. This, I think it the advantage of "British Citizen" - that it is actually defined, but avoids latbelling nationality. We could add the constituent country greatest association. So, Billy Connolly is a commedian from Scotland, and his infobox says:
- In the case of no clearly attributable constiuent country, use United Kingdom. --sony-youthpléigh 17:47, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Minor capitalization thing occurred to me -- shouldn't it be British citizen (Scotland)? Also, I think your point about calling people "British citizens" as opposed to simply "British" is a sound idea. It emphasizes that legal citizenship/nationality is being discussed, not necessarily cultural identity/consituent country. --Melty girl 16:28, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not suggesting that you can't describe someone as being a citizen of the UK...just that it's not a meaningful designation of nationality! "United Kingdom (English)" looks fine to me, but I suspect the really difficult thing to get consensus on is whether a particular person is "United Kingdom (English)" or "United Kingdom (British)" in cases where there is no citable reference (eg membership of a national sporting team) to suggest which is appropriate. I did a quick straw poll of some friends at the weekend and despite the fact that all of them have spent most of their lives in England (and Britain, of course) they were pretty evenly divided between those who think their nationality is "English" and those who say they are "British". I'm not suggesting my friends are representative of all the subjects of Wikipedia articles, but I think this is one of the central difficulties of resolving UK nationality. Bluewave 17:34, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- There aren't citizens of the UK? Well, in that case, United Kingdom (English) is good. --Melty girl 17:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- "British Citizen" means something specific under British nationality law: "UK citizen" does not. I would caution against making up terminology, even if it is less loaded. Bluewave 16:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Can go with that too, or United Kingdom (English). I would not link to mix the two, like: British (English). --sony-youthpléigh 16:50, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I think UK Citizen (English) is less loaded -- and shorter. --Melty girl 16:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I could give a more one sided landslide (although just as annecdotal and unscientific) - during the summer I worked for my college's clearing hotline (for admissions) and the proforma we used asked for enquirer's "nationality" without us giving any clarification about legal vs cultural vs loyalty vs what-someone-tells-you-you-are. Apart from international enquirers, every single response I took down was "British". Timrollpickering 17:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- If the hotline dealt with admissions to a college, then by implication any fool could tell that the real question was: "Are you a UK citizen? If not, then are you an EU citizen?" So the significant answer would be "British", as that is the person citizenship. --sony-youthpléigh 17:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Not necessarily. I've certainly heard Scots give their nationality as Scottish when it was obvious that the question being asked was "are you a British citizen?" In fact, I once heard one get very wound up because he couldn't understand "Scottish" wasn't a valid option on the nationality field of a customer service database - he simply couldn't accept that his nationality was British. So while it might be obvious to most of us, it's not a given that the response will be the one we expect. -- Necrothesp 09:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- If the hotline dealt with admissions to a college, then by implication any fool could tell that the real question was: "Are you a UK citizen? If not, then are you an EU citizen?" So the significant answer would be "British", as that is the person citizenship. --sony-youthpléigh 17:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- I could give a more one sided landslide (although just as annecdotal and unscientific) - during the summer I worked for my college's clearing hotline (for admissions) and the proforma we used asked for enquirer's "nationality" without us giving any clarification about legal vs cultural vs loyalty vs what-someone-tells-you-you-are. Apart from international enquirers, every single response I took down was "British". Timrollpickering 17:46, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- Indeed. Considering some of the other question produced ambiguous answers that took time to extract the correct information (and many callers were stressed) I doubt every answer was a logical thinking through as to what I was asking the information for. Timrollpickering 10:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- If the flag guideline is impressive then why not copy it's style? A few paragraphs explaining the nature of the UK, describing it’s nations, showing how people have gone about things, and ending up on a warning that with the UK ‘many editors do things differently’ and ‘disputes are likely to arise’! I’ll go for that!
- PS. Aren’t flags a bit silly by the way? Wikipedia never used to have all this bumph! The union Jack is such a notorious (right wing) and technically ambiguous (no Wales) symbol too! Flag waving - never really liked it, and I’ve got a lovely big red dragon on mine too.
- PPS. I thought we realised that ‘British’ is a clear nationality in itself to many (NI unionists esp). It deserves equal footing on the bias front! It’s probably the biggest single reason there are no guidelines! --Matt Lewis 18:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- (Dare I repeat it), Sooo much easier to simply use British. GoodDay 18:30, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- PPS. I thought we realised that ‘British’ is a clear nationality in itself to many (NI unionists esp). It deserves equal footing on the bias front! It’s probably the biggest single reason there are no guidelines! --Matt Lewis 18:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
- The Union Jack (Flag) is "notorious" and "right-wing"? What are you on about? Since when has our national flag been right-wing? Apart from in the opinions of the obsessively PC or obsessively nationalist brigade of course, and they're a tiny minority. Although I do agree with getting rid of flags from Wikipedia - I loathe these silly infoboxes that seem to be springing up everywhere, turning a serious encyclopaedia into what looks like a kids' project. -- Necrothesp 09:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- What am I talking about? Certain groups were always comfortable with the Union Jack - the armed forces and royalists in particular. But you can't hide that on the streets it was used as a 'nationalistic' symbol for years (in the pro-white, pro-right way). Embarrassingly, they were not always quite the tiny minority we’d like to believe (and plenty of racism is still around). That bad image was part of the reason why the St George flag has been reclaimed the way it has been recently - though, in my opinion, that was mostly down sporting pride and a growing need for more lucid English identity. The Union Jack didn’t fit – and always had that unfortunate ‘skinhead’ stigma to it. --Matt Lewis 16:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- The Union Jack is a 'hate symbol'? GoodDay 16:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Not a common 'hate symbol' - but it does have a stigma due to the way it has been used. Tourists see a lot of it - but we don't exactly fly it outside our houses. A lot of us did in the 1977 Silver Jubilee, but the last (gold?) Jubilee went largely unnoticed in all but the most royal-loving areas. Times change over the years. --Matt Lewis 17:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- What am I talking about? Certain groups were always comfortable with the Union Jack - the armed forces and royalists in particular. But you can't hide that on the streets it was used as a 'nationalistic' symbol for years (in the pro-white, pro-right way). Embarrassingly, they were not always quite the tiny minority we’d like to believe (and plenty of racism is still around). That bad image was part of the reason why the St George flag has been reclaimed the way it has been recently - though, in my opinion, that was mostly down sporting pride and a growing need for more lucid English identity. The Union Jack didn’t fit – and always had that unfortunate ‘skinhead’ stigma to it. --Matt Lewis 16:51, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Glad you agree on the info boxes though - I far prefer prose-like text, myself - and they can look 'child-like' too - you're right. I think I like writing - if it's got to be done (and WP isn't going anywhere, unfortunately), I think using prose, rather than lists, is the way to do it. You can always add the other side when it comes to prose. --Matt Lewis 16:57, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
::::::Again, the Union Jack is a hate symbol??. GoodDay 17:00, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't think the Union Flag is any more a hate symbol than, say, the French Tricolor is a hate symbol because of its use by the far right, and that's still embraced by the French people. Far right groups will always use their national flag - that doesn't make it a hate symbol in the eyes of the majority. It's true that the Cross of St George is increasingly seen in England (although that too has been identified with far right groups, probably more so than the Union Flag), but that's more a response to the increasing use of the Scottish saltire and the Welsh dragon, Scottish and Welsh devolution, and the feeling of a growing number of English people that we are the only one of the three nations of Great Britain who are not "allowed" to express our loyalty to our country without being accused of racism and the other unpleasant aspects of nationalism (and the extremely annoying claims that there's no such thing as an English nation, as opposed to the increasing recognition of Scotland and Wales as nations). It's not a reaction against the Union Flag, but an expression of Englishness and a reaction against growing Scottish and Welsh nationalism and anti-English sentiment (e.g. the number of Scots saying they'd support any team that was playing football or rugby against England - no English person I know would reciprocate that unpleasantly unsporting sentiment).
I also, incidentally, don't think it's true that the Queen's Golden Jubilee went unnoticed - the coverage and the crowds were huge! Maybe we didn't have street parties and the like universally (although I believe there were plenty of them), but that's because the country is a very different place from what it was in 1977 - we just don't generally do that sort of community thing any more. And as my school insisted on doing maypole dances in 1977, thank God I say! -- Necrothesp 17:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- Is this part of the reason for the resistance to using British in these bio articles? Many editors see the 'Union Jack' as a symbol of hate? or domination?GoodDay 17:40, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- 'Domination' is an interesting word - I'm writing a new section attemping to list just the 'against' points of view (which hasn't been properly done yet). I've got an interesting point on how the word 'Britain' (which the Jack, of course, represents) can be perceived... got to get it finished first (its got quite long!)! --Matt Lewis 17:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
In Cardiff in 1977 bunting was up and down every other street. Honestly, with the Golden Jubilee, no one round here celebrated (visibly at least) at all. we haven't lost that much sociability! No-one wanted the bunting, and no-one wanted the fervour. I can see certain areas of England (some in the East End of London maybe?) still going for it though.
PS. I love the English, I just don't want to see them win anything. --Matt Lewis 17:44, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- But I'm talking about British not English. GoodDay 18:06, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- RE 'the English... winning' - the above was to Necrothesp (re his cheesed-off comment on the Scottish! The Welsh are a bit like that to!). --Matt Lewis 18:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
- This Arbitrary Break sub section is a pain. All this 'flag talk' belongs at Wikipedia: Manual of Style (flags), not here. GoodDay 18:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Archiving the sections on names etc
The current 1-23 (as of Oct 26th 2007) seem to be broadly on the same subject (names and pseudonyms etc)- and I'm sure are best kept together. I notice the last entry amongst them was September 27th - a month ago now. Is it time to Archive them as 'February 2007 to September 2007' - or are they still too alive? We have a quite a long page here now! --Matt Lewis 19:21, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
Anyone any feelings? - I don't want to just jump in and do it (I wasn't part of any of it), but my PC's a little slow! --Matt Lewis 17:01, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
British Monarchs
Concerning say, Queen Elizabeth II should her article not be headed, Elizabeth II of the Commonwealth Realms? While she is primarily based in the UK she is Queen of other areas in equal measure. In regard to say, George V should he not be George V of the British Empire? Gavin Scott 10:21, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
- This has come up numerous times (and usually every requested move is heavily voted down, often with a further vote requesting that this point be put to rest!). First off it would be creating titles (WP:OR). Secondly numerous monarchs have reigned over more than one place at the same time (or for different periods) - the convention is that their single highest title is listed. The article name is aiming to easily identify them, not cover every single territory they reigned over. Timrollpickering 11:42, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
Military Rank
Why is it currently the case that military ranks are being included in the first line of a biography, styled as the title of the named individual e.g. 'Admiral of the Fleet Louis Mountbatten'. This seems contradictory to every other convention wikipedia has regarding styles of names. Given that academics who say have the rank of Professor are not allowed to make use of their title, given that it is expected that police officers do not make use of their title in biographical articles e.g. Ian Blair, it seems that excpetion is being made for articles relating to military officers. This all despite the fact that:
- The individual was not born as 'Admiral of the Fleet Smith'
- Once leaving the armed forces the individual ceases to be an Admiral of the Fleet
- The individual is not legally entitled to make use of 'Admiral of the Fleet' as a title on official documents such as a passport
- Admiral of the Fleet is not a historically used title, evidenced by making use of any good history book.
Surely an agreement can be reached on whether it is appropriate to be confusing ranks and titles? It is shocking that wikipedia has poured such effort into creating a clear guideline for titles in nearly every other scenario, but has completely overlooked the military. I am in favour of stating that Admiral of the Fleet should not be used as a title, specifically not in the first line of an article. AJMW 18:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
- To answer your points in order:
- Sir John Smith wasn't born with his title either - that doesn't mean that we don't use it.
- On leaving the armed forces an officer of or above the rank of major/lieutenant-commander/squadron leader can and frequently does (in Britain at least) continue to use his rank. In addition, 5-star officers never officially retire. So your allegation that on leaving the armed forces admirals of the fleet cease to hold their ranks is untrue on two counts.
- What on earth has what is used on a passport got to do with what an encyclopaedia uses?
- What do you mean by "not a historically used title"? I'm not sure what you're getting at.
- It is not expected that police ranks will not be used. It is simply not usual for commissioners or chief constables to use their ranks before their names - we hardly ever hear about "Commissioner Sir Ian Blair", we most certainly hear about "Admiral of the Fleet Lord Mountbatten". In addition, military officers, as I've said above, retain their ranks after retirement, and are specifically given permission to do so on retirement, whereas this is not the case with police officers. -- Necrothesp 21:52, 10 November 2007 (UTC)