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:::::::::I think "do not WP:SYNTHESIZE a film's critical reputation by comparing reviews yourself" is probably fairly self-explanatory. I'm at a loss at how to make it clearer than that. If an editor does disregard this guideline then it's probably because they haven't read it. [[User:Betty Logan|Betty Logan]] ([[User talk:Betty Logan|talk]]) 14:22, 14 September 2017 (UTC) |
:::::::::I think "do not WP:SYNTHESIZE a film's critical reputation by comparing reviews yourself" is probably fairly self-explanatory. I'm at a loss at how to make it clearer than that. If an editor does disregard this guideline then it's probably because they haven't read it. [[User:Betty Logan|Betty Logan]] ([[User talk:Betty Logan|talk]]) 14:22, 14 September 2017 (UTC) |
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'''comment:''' An experienced editor already knows how to interpret secondary sources in this context without additional explanation. If an editor can't comprehend this MOS guideline with their current understanding of policy, then perhaps their competence to edit Wikipedia should be brought into question. This MOS guideline even provides a link to [[WP:secondary sources]] and [[WP:SYNTH]] appears right below it on the very same page! So, adding in another sentence, or another paragraph for further clarification only serves to complicate things and seems like an exercise in redundancy to me. It appears that a problem is being created where none exists. As [[User:Betty Logan|Betty Logan]] pointed out, it's only a problem if a user disregards the policy, and can be easily corrected by guiding them to the policy so they can read it. This MOS guideline already points to those policies... [[User:Huggums537|Huggums537]] ([[User talk:Huggums537|talk]]) 03:05, 15 September 2017 (UTC) |
'''comment:''' An experienced editor already knows how to interpret secondary sources in this context without additional explanation. If an editor can't comprehend this MOS guideline with their current understanding of policy, then perhaps their competence to edit Wikipedia should be brought into question. This MOS guideline even provides a link to [[WP:secondary sources]] and [[WP:SYNTH]] appears right below it on the very same page! So, adding in another sentence, or another paragraph for further clarification only serves to complicate things and seems like an exercise in redundancy to me. It appears that a problem is being created where none exists. As [[User:Betty Logan|Betty Logan]] pointed out, it's only a problem if a user disregards the policy, and can be easily corrected by guiding them to the policy so they can read it. This MOS guideline already points to those policies... [[User:Huggums537|Huggums537]] ([[User talk:Huggums537|talk]]) 03:05, 15 September 2017 (UTC) |
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:{{re|Huggums537}} You have scarcely 600 edits to your name -- are you trying to tell me that you know more about how experienced editors read these guidelines than I do? And how is {{tq|An experienced editor already knows}} even relevant? The point is that ''inexperienced'' editors are going to misread (or, rather, already are misreading) "secondary sources" as meaning the same thing the phrase means elsewhere on this page. On top of that, the only reason to link [[WP:SECONDARY]] is to tell editors that it doesn't mean comparing reviews oneself; in other words, linking [[WP:SYNTH]] is inherently better than linking WP:SECONDARY. [[User:Hijiri88|Hijiri 88]] (<small>[[User talk:Hijiri88|聖]][[Special:Contributions/Hijiri88|やや]]</small>) 10:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC) |
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*'''Further entirely unnecessary comment''' Why has one of the very similar proposals not been implemented yet? I just want {{tq|do not [[WP:SYNTHESIZE]] a film's critical reputation by comparing reviews yourself}} (which is the essence of my original edit, just worded better) added, and it seems like pretty much everyone is in agreement on it. I join Betty at her loss as to how to make it clearer. [[User:Hijiri88|Hijiri 88]] (<small>[[User talk:Hijiri88|聖]][[Special:Contributions/Hijiri88|やや]]</small>) 10:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC) |
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RfC: Allowing the use of two nationalities
The consensus is against allowing the use of two nationalities.
My earlier close, "The consensus is allowing two nationalities in the lead", had a typo. My apologies for the error.
- The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
According to WP:FILMLEAD, which is found within Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Film:
If the film's nationality is singularly defined by reliable sources (e.g., being called an American film), it should be identified in the opening sentence. If the nationality is not singular, cover the different national interests later in the lead section.
I propose that two nationalities should be allowed in the opening sentence. Just for reference as to how this has been in practice in numerous film articles, please see Alien ("British-American"; also listed as a GA-class article), Godzilla, King of the Monsters! ("Japanese-American"), Once Upon a Time in the West ("Italian-American"), The Shining ("British-American"), An American Werewolf in London ("British-American"), Inglourious Basterds ("American-German"), and Elle ("French-German"). Now, of course, the fact that this has been done on such articles is not a clear reason to allow it, and I have seen several articles on internationally produced films that forego listing the countries in the lede. The above examples are to demonstrate the appearance of listing two countries in the opening sentence.
Adding two countries to an opening sentence does not make significant clutter. Now, when one goes over that limit, I find that it can indeed look cluttered. Take for example Hector and the Search for Happiness, which is written as a "German-British-Canadian" film, or Night of the Sharks, which is referred to as "Italian-Spanish-Mexican". This makes for unnecessary clutter, but I believe that having a maximum of two countries, rather than one or three+, gets the job done quite nicely.
This proposal first came to my mind when editing the article Baby Driver. The film is a British-American co-production, and there have been back-and-forth edits which either list it as British-American in the opening sentence, or starting the first sentence of the second lede paragraph with "An American-British co-production,...", which falls in line with the current Manual of Style for Film articles. This is how the article looks at the time I'm writing this proposal, wherein I edited the page to have "British-American" in the opening sentence, which I assumed was acceptable, as articles like Alien had done so for months, and possibly years of being in the mainspace.
So, long story short, I don't think there's anything wrong with listing two countries in a film article's opening sentence, and propose that a maximum of two nationalities in such opening sentences be officially allowed. If anyone has reasons against allowing such a thing, I'm open to hearing such concerns, but the only thing I can think of is the clutter that amounts from having three or more nationalities in the opening sentence, and I find that a maximum of two nationalities caps it off quite nicely without looking messy. It's straightforward and removes the obligation of having to include nationalities later on in a film's article's lede. –Matthew - (talk) 19:17, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- UPDATE: I realised shortly after writing this that this topic was discussed in non-RfC form previously on this talk page. See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Film#About nationalities. –Matthew - (talk) 19:19, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose because it contributes to false equivalence. Identifying it this way implies even (50-50) contributions from both countries when this is rarely the case. It could easily be 10-90 or 90-10, and databases do not make distinctions. That is why this guideline exists, to state one nationality if it is straightforward enough. Beyond that, cases are always too complex to sum up in a pair of terms in the opening sentence. However, a few editors in the community seem to have argued doing away with nationality from the opening sentence altogether, and considering that this is a tiresome issue, I'm growing inclined to agree with them. Perhaps we should entirely relegate any claims of nationality to after the opening sentence. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 19:42, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Hmm... I see your point. I would agree with you, but I think that two nationalities could possibly still be listed if reliable sources conclude as such. –Matthew - (talk) 20:53, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed - The whole point of The Great Wall (Zhang Yimou), for instance, is that it was a collaboration between two veteran film industries. It happens, and it's noteworthy when it does.Fb2ts (talk) 23:09, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - We don't even need one nationality in the opening, there's no need for more than one, it's such a non vital piece of information in an age where there can be 10 countries tangentially related to the production of the film down to the director, studio, actors, financier, different producers. It's fluff info and it doesn't need to be expanded upon. It neither requires British-American nor "A British-American" production elsewhere in the lead. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 20:55, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- There's no wiggle room or exceptions in your eyes, especially for older films? Do you think it would useless information to note that Godzilla is a Japanese film, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly an Italian film, or Amélie a French film? –Matthew - (talk) 22:54, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed - the point of national origin is certainly an important piece of information about any film -- except for perhaps when a film is produced in Hollywood or the United States -- because if you don't state French, Italian, Japanese or whatever, in an English language encyclopedia, it's arguably obvious.Fb2ts (talk) 23:09, 13 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose for the same reasons I tend to oppose adding additional fields to infoboxes. This reads as an attempt to boil down information that should be discussed at length (how each nationality played into the film's production) and will encourage overly-casual editors to simply state the nationalities rather than exercising due diligence and writing prose to adequately explain why the film is dual nationality. DonIago (talk) 02:31, 4 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - I'm not sure I agree with the guideline the way it is now, that if there is a reliable source that defines it as a film from a certain country, that you "should" put it into lead, personally i think it would be better if that said you "could" put it in the lead. Any film that is released internationally will end up with the foreign countries reliable sources describing it in as an American(or where ever) film anyways. The obscure films are probably the only ones that aren't being covered internationally, and those would be ones not getting any sources outside its home country who won't always describe it with a nationality. WikiVirusC(talk) 06:27, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose - I've been asked to comment on this. I agree that it is important to state the primary countries collaborating on a film, but do not think it should be limited to two countries, esp. in the case of 3 countries who contribute 33% each towards the film. Who would make the decision to delete one of the countries in the case of an "Italian-Spanish-Mexican" film, and what would the justification be? The information on an international production may be better integrated into the article itself, rather than in the lead sentence. Netherzone (talk) 05:38, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose per the above. In the cases of more than two nations, then saying "X is an internationally co-produced film" (or similar) will be enough to avoid lead-country bloat. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 11:56, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
- Oppose. The project would be better served by having less focus on nationalities, not more. GRAPPLE X 12:14, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
- Agreed. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 17:38, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
Is anyone else confused by the closing statement? I see a whole lot of opposition here which it doesn't appear to reflect. DonIago (talk) 16:12, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- No, you're not the only one - @Cunard: - please can you re-look at this? Thanks. Lugnuts Fire Walk with Me 16:15, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- I have reverted the close and suggest we look at other closing statements by this editor as they seem to have closed multiples discussions in the matter of minutes.--Moxy (talk) 16:21, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
hello
Hello again. I'm only coming back here to tell you all a few things. The first thing is i'm sorry for acting the same way in my discussions (Favre1fan93 said I was "not here" because of this). I just don't understand why people have to disagree with my suggestions that can actually help Wikipedia. The second thing I have to say is about my second discussion: I was trolling you all along! (Doniago was right about that.) I like to play jokes and pranks on other people, but I do help out on this site whenever I feel like it. Lugnuts, if you're reading this, there was no reason to call me a "child". I was only trolling you once.
One last thing: I would like all of my discussions on this talk page to be deleted WITHOUT being archived. If they aren't deleted today, i'll have to delete them myself. I will no longer add anymore discussions on this talk page and I will no longer edit Wikipedia. I'm done helping. I've got better things to do. I don't care if my edits are permament. Do not block me again.
I regret nothing. DBZFan30 (talk) 11:12, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- I'm tired of dealing with this. Think carefully about what you do next, because if you do anything disruptive – including, but not limited to, blanking conversations on this talk page – I will block you for a very long time. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 13:53, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
- @NinjaRobotPirate: That obviously won't happen, because i'm done with Wikipedia entirely. You've won this battle. I have surrendered to everyone who watches this talk page, especially Lugnuts. No one will see my username in another edit summary or talk page again. It was nice meeting you all. Goodbye forever, Wikipedia. You'll all miss me. DBZFan30 (talk) 16:36, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Add section under Clean-up about Flag icons in film articles.
I propose to add a section under "Clean-up", about how MOS:FLAG applies in film articles. I am thinking mainly about section "Do not emphasize nationality without good reason" under "Inappropriate use". The use of flag icons in infoboxes has a very clear consensus of WP Film over the years, although this consensus was mainly taken on technical grounds. However flags keep decorating various film award articles where nationality of recipient (film or filmmaker) should be mere parenthetical information. The Best Foreign Language Film in the yearly Academy Awards articles has it as it should be, i.e. name of country in brackets. The only example of Appropriate use of flag icons in film articles I can think of, is in cases like the List of countries by number of Academy Awards for Best Foreign Language Film, where nationality IS the main issue. However, emphasizing nationality with flag icons in International Film Festivals places undue weight on nationality. Nationality of recipient is not mentioned or emphasized at all during award ceremonies. The award is given to a film for its qualities or to a person for her/his work.
Here are the milestones on the flag issue in the archives of Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Film: New Cinema navigation box - Flags in info boxes - Flags in Academy Awards articles - Use of flags makes information harder to read - Flag icons - flag icons in infoboxes - Poll about Icons - Formatting of Award category lists - Question about flags - Use of flags. Hoverfish Talk 00:30, 22 July 2017 (UTC)
Flag icons (suggestion)
{{shortcut|WP:FILMFLAG}}
Following MOS:FLAG, 1. Flag icon are only appropriate where the subject actually represents that country or nationality. In film articles and film award articles this is hardly ever the case. 2. Do not emphasize nationality without good reason. In film award articles, the use of flag icons is not appropriate, unless nationality is a main topic, like in the List of countries by number of Academy Awards for Best Foreign Language Film. Note that in international film festivals, the films, their directors or other filmmakers and actors do not represnt their country, and their nationality is mere parenthetical information. Therefore flag icons should not be used to accompany tiles and names. Apart from this, the use of flag icons in film infoboxes has been decided against by long-standing consensus.
Section tables / expansion - suggestions
I am not sure about the proper phrasing here, but the following points should somehow be made.
- Tables are a complex form of list and should not be misused to resolve visual layout problems. If the information you are editing is not tabular in nature, it probably does not belong in a table. Where 10 or more items are placed in list form (divided in two or three columns if possible), they take up a minimal height in a section. The same items placed in table form streache out the section in height considerably. And where long names or multiple countries are placed in a cell, that cause lines to break when the window becomes narrower, or for a screen of narrower width, the table becomes considebly longer, while a list would only become slightly longer.
- Usually the justification for using tables in film or award articles is their sortable feature. In cases where this is considered necessary, the appropriate data-sort-value="..." | have to be inserted. In titles starting with an English or foreign article (the, a, le, la, les, il, el, das, etc), a data-sort-value with the term (or terms) after the article should be given. For example "The Big Lebowski" should be soorted by ( data-sort-value="Big Lebowski" | ''[[The Big Lebowski]]'' ). Where names are involved, sorting should be by second (family) name ( data-sort-value="Scorsese" | Matin Scorsese ) or is a second perosn with same family name is in the list, ( data-sort-value="Scorsese, Martin" ). If a column contains several cases of 2-3 filmakers, or 2-3 countries together in a cell, it is obvious that this column shoud not be sortable. This can be separately arranged at the top by assigning the additional class="unsortable" right after scope="col"
Forbidding IMDb scores makes no sense
It's peculiar that Wikipedia, a site that's mostly the summation of internet popular consensus, rejects movie score data that is arrived at by a similar process. If anyone has a problem with IMDb scores he's free to ignore them. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who finds that data to be more relevant than other sources, plus interesting to compare against critic reviews. Barring it from Wikipedia is harmful.
IMDb's vote counts are much larger than anything else so they're difficult to artificially influence. The site also tries to minimize such influences. Even assuming a few select movies are influenced, so what? So every now and then the score takes into account some niche group that feels strongly enough to spend the effort to affect a certain movie. If anything, those rare occasions add interest.
BTW, what triggered this post was someone's edit revert after I added the IMDb scores to a Pixar article. In that specific case the IMDb scores follow critic scores pretty closely: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_Pixar_films&oldid=792042121#Critical_and_public_reception
¤ ehudshapira 16:29, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- Wikipedia isn't a "summation of internet popular consensus", it is a summation of reliably published information...which IMDB isn't. The fact that six Chris Nolan films are in the top 50 (and two more in the top 250) shows how much a dedicated fanbase can skew the poll. Wikipedia's biggest strength is that it keeps crap like the IMDB poll out. Betty Logan (talk) 16:46, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- IMDb is a reliable source for user votes. I'd argue that engineered scores there are as rare as wrong info in major news outlets, those which are considered reliable sources. And Chris Nolan, he scores pretty high also on Metacritic, very high on Rotten Tomatoes, and without being part of any fanbase I'd also agree that most of his movies are better than most. ¤ ehudshapira 19:12, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- No it's not. Erik has listed plenty of examples of vote tampering below. IMDB to my knowledge does not take any steps to prevent multiple voting by its users or to ensure that it is representative, therefore its poll is not a reliable source for how its users rate a film. If it confirmed identities and sampled its users in some appropriate manner then it might be different, but the poll is essentially the same as most other content on IMDB: it is uncorroborated and user-edited. Betty Logan (talk) 19:38, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- IMDb is a reliable source for user votes. I'd argue that engineered scores there are as rare as wrong info in major news outlets, those which are considered reliable sources. And Chris Nolan, he scores pretty high also on Metacritic, very high on Rotten Tomatoes, and without being part of any fanbase I'd also agree that most of his movies are better than most. ¤ ehudshapira 19:12, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) See MOS:FILM#Audience response, which says, "Do not include user ratings submitted to websites such as the Internet Movie Database or Rotten Tomatoes, as they are vulnerable to vote stacking and demographic skew." It has been abused in the past, most recently with Ghostbusters. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 16:47, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, that text forbidding IMDb is what I was referring to (RT's user votes I think are insignificant). Hiliting very few influenced movies on IMDb don't make the other 99.9% invalid. ¤ ehudshapira 19:12, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- I Am Not Your Negro was similarly vote-stacked. See article about that here. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 16:49, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- If there is a wide discrepancy between critical reception and IMDb scores, and there's in-depth coverage of that discrepancy in RS, then write about that discrepancy. Otherwise I'm all for sticking to the current MOS:FILM and WP:UGC policy. E.g. the article on I Am Not Your Negro only included a casual mention of the score as of two months ago. This gives readers no information whatsoever about the controversy, and I've thus removed it. However, the controversy should IMO be covered, and maybe I'll do it myself when I have more time if no one else does. Daß Wölf 20:17, 24 July 2017 (UTC)
- We should include IMDb scores for limited cases. My comments copied from Talk:List of films considered the best#Highest rated films in film databases:
- I think IMDB Top 250 should be included. That list seems stable and more resistive to vote stuffing. Probably the only larger sample size than IMDB (Netflix/Amazon/RT next?) is using box office receipts (some producers would say the highest ROI is "best"). More info on IMDB ratings: IMDB top 250 voting FAQ, IMDB ratings over the years, Combined IMDB & RT & MC No one gave any bad IMDB citations so here are two: 538 on Gunday and Wired on Indies.
- The Pixar table by User:ehudshapira shows how closely aligned the rankings are, with a few anomalies. I think this usage is acceptable because it includes the other sources and are comparing only among Pixar movies. The source URL should be to the score demographics page so people can see some of the subtleties. Vote stacking is most noticeable early in the voting when there are few votes and show some recovery over time. (Perhaps the results of this voting shouldn't be covered due to campaigning and one (reliable?) source said there were millions of illegite votes; who knows if they really saw what they were voting for.) StrayBolt (talk) 21:48, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
Recent article here about online movie ratings being flawed. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:32, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
Rowspan question
I've had other editors indicate to me in edit summaries that the use of rowspans in tables (such as awards tables) has been deprecated, since A) they make tables difficult to read on mobile platforms, and B) it makes tables non-sortable. This all makes perfect sense to me, but I can't find any discussion about it or any MOS statement on it. Would someone here be able to point me to the pertinent background? Thanks! --Tenebrae (talk) 23:14, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- There are various discussions here where I find the general notion of "either rowspan or sortable, not both", mostly in featured lists. I haven't seen a MOS yet, but this should be a meta issue. I'll see if I can find something there. Hoverfish Talk 23:37, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- Well, MOS:TABLES does say "The powerful and useful sorting feature can be enabled by adding class="sortable" to the top row. Extreme caution should be applied if rowspan or colspan is used." Hoverfish Talk 23:40, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- As far as I'm aware, it's not deprecated. That doesn't mean that you won't get caught in an edit war if you try to use it, though. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 23:42, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
- I think it depends how you do the row-spanning. For instance, the sorting function works fine for the year-spanning first column at Jenny_Agutter#Filmography, but sometimes you end up with spans in the middle of table (where tables look "boxy") which makes rows discontinuous for sorting purposes. The deeper into the table you go the more likely it is you will get into problems with sorting spanned rows and columns. Betty Logan (talk) 00:47, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Could be a browser issue. Here, whenever I sort the rows (even if it doesn't change the row order), all rowspans are "flattened" into repeating cells, even pretty convoluted designs such as this example. Daß Wölf 00:57, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Could even be a technical issue that was resolved years ago. I haven't done any convoluted table designs for years so I could just be out of date. But even then there are accessibility issues to consider because that type of rowspan (in your example) creates a discontinuity between the date column and the notes column and I am not sure how a screenreader would deal with the gap. Betty Logan (talk) 01:06, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Out of curiosity I tried that page with Microsoft Narrator :) I don't know what disabled people typically use, but this one would read the page row by row as I tabbed from link to link. As long as the link was not in a rowspanned cell, everything went fine. The Star! row failed, but that's not a common occurence anyway in filmographies. It might be a problem for accolade lists, however. Daß Wölf 01:30, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Could even be a technical issue that was resolved years ago. I haven't done any convoluted table designs for years so I could just be out of date. But even then there are accessibility issues to consider because that type of rowspan (in your example) creates a discontinuity between the date column and the notes column and I am not sure how a screenreader would deal with the gap. Betty Logan (talk) 01:06, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
- Could be a browser issue. Here, whenever I sort the rows (even if it doesn't change the row order), all rowspans are "flattened" into repeating cells, even pretty convoluted designs such as this example. Daß Wölf 00:57, 30 July 2017 (UTC)
Superhero genre
An issue that comes up with just about every superhero film is that there are some who want to give it a more specific genre in the lead (such as wanting to label Captain America: The Winter Soldier a thriller or Deadpool a comedy). Because it was decided at some point that only the primary genre should be listed as such in the lead, this practice is frowned upon around these superhero articles. I bring this up because there is currently a disagreement regarding the short film No Good Deed, which is about Deadpool. I have listed it as a superhero short, but another user believes it is primarily a comedy. I was hoping for some additional opinions on this matter. Thanks, adamstom97 (talk) 23:01, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
- Deadpool is not a comedy. Having jokes doesn't make something primarily a comedy. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 23:07, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
- Please be reasonable; there's having jokes, and being filled with jokes. The latter is what clearly makes a film comedic. By your logic, a WWII theme in Saving Private Ryan doesn't make it a war film. Also, to add onto OP's point, there's superhero short, and there's superhero comedy short (which is what was advocated). The terms aren't mutually exclusive. Whether something should only be labelled "superhero" ought to be done on a case-by-case basis. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:41, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- WP:FILMLEAD is pretty clear on the matter that only the primary genre or sub-genre should be listed in the lead (lest we end up with users attempting to add a laundry list of genres). So yes, "superhero" would be the correct usage, because I don't believe we should view "superhero [insert other genre here]" as a "sub genre". In this case, comedy can of course be mentioned elsewhere in the article, but the genre should still be superhero. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:13, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- I have not seen any of the aforementioned films so I cannot comment on the applicability of the labels, but it is reasonable to also state the type of film (i.e. animated/silent/short etc) in the lead along with the primary genre so I don't see a problem with describing No Good Deed as a superhero short film, if that is indeed what it is. Betty Logan (talk) 22:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- What do most of the critics think of the short? Do they consider it a superhero comedy or just a superhero short? The plot sentence written doesn't seem like it's developed to be funny. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 23:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- I think everyone sort of agrees that it is a silly little short that plays into the character's signature humour, just as the films do. The way I see it is that it definitely has major comedic elements, but that is because it is about Deadpool who brings those elements. So it is a comedy because it is a superhero short, which would make superhero the primary genre. To elaborate on one of my previous examples, Captain America: The Winter Soldier is widely considered to be a political thriller, but those elements come from the fact that Captain America is an inherently political character. So in that case, again, the specific genre happens because of the superhero elements and thus superhero is still the primary genre. - adamstom97 (talk) 01:14, 14 August 2017 (UTC)
- What do most of the critics think of the short? Do they consider it a superhero comedy or just a superhero short? The plot sentence written doesn't seem like it's developed to be funny. AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 23:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- I have not seen any of the aforementioned films so I cannot comment on the applicability of the labels, but it is reasonable to also state the type of film (i.e. animated/silent/short etc) in the lead along with the primary genre so I don't see a problem with describing No Good Deed as a superhero short film, if that is indeed what it is. Betty Logan (talk) 22:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- WP:FILMLEAD is pretty clear on the matter that only the primary genre or sub-genre should be listed in the lead (lest we end up with users attempting to add a laundry list of genres). So yes, "superhero" would be the correct usage, because I don't believe we should view "superhero [insert other genre here]" as a "sub genre". In this case, comedy can of course be mentioned elsewhere in the article, but the genre should still be superhero. - Favre1fan93 (talk) 22:13, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
- Please be reasonable; there's having jokes, and being filled with jokes. The latter is what clearly makes a film comedic. By your logic, a WWII theme in Saving Private Ryan doesn't make it a war film. Also, to add onto OP's point, there's superhero short, and there's superhero comedy short (which is what was advocated). The terms aren't mutually exclusive. Whether something should only be labelled "superhero" ought to be done on a case-by-case basis. Snuggums (talk / edits) 01:41, 13 August 2017 (UTC)
Cast section and opening credits of Home Alone
There's an issue with Home Alone. In the opening credits, Larry Hankin who portrayed Larry Balzak, a police sergeant who works in the police family crisis, was featured on it even though it was a minor role, but TheOldJacobite removed him because of the factor that Hankin had a minor role, even though he was listed in the opening credits. When I reverted it, they were reverted back twice (one by TheOldJacobite, the other by Gareth Griffith-Jones). I set up a discussion for it in the Home Alone talk page, but they reverted to even go at it. We need to discuss this issue on here and on the Home Alone talk page if we can. BattleshipMan (talk) 22:52, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
- It is standard practice on WP not to include minor roles in the cast section, which should be for listing only the main cast members. Whether they appeared in the opening credits is irrelevant. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 23:10, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
- No, it should be relevant. Those listed in opening credits should cast qualify to be put in case sections, regardless on how minor the roles are. BattleshipMan (talk) 01:55, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
- To help resolve the difference of opinion, I appended at 52 credited cast members Talk:Home Alone#For the record: Home Alone on-screen cast credits the names of Home Alone actors as presented in the film's beginning and end (the credits are also easily available online). Again, for the record, the film lists 11 names in its opening credits and 52 names in its closing credits.
- No, it should be relevant. Those listed in opening credits should cast qualify to be put in case sections, regardless on how minor the roles are. BattleshipMan (talk) 01:55, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
- The actor in question, Larry Hankin, is billed 11th in the film's opening credits and 12th in the film's closing credits. As of this writing, the Wikipedia article Home Alone has 19 actors' names listed, only 10 of which are listed in the film's opening credits. Some of the remaining 9 names are far down the closing cast list (one of them, Terrie Snell, currently listed in 6th place under the article's cast list, is billed in 20th place on the film's list).
- In fact, 10 of the names currently in the article's cast list, do not even appear in the film's opening credits. Since this film has only 6 main cast members, this article's current cast list of 19 is in violation of the argument that "[I]t is standard practice on WP not to include minor roles in the cast section, which should be for listing only the main cast members", thus presenting the opportunity to reduce the article's cast list to 6. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:52, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
- We can't reduce cast sections. It would make things difficult for readers to find and click on links on some of the specific actor and some of the actors not in the opening credits had a little bigger roles, which is one of the reasons we can't reduce the cast section. BattleshipMan (talk) 00:02, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
- In fact, 10 of the names currently in the article's cast list, do not even appear in the film's opening credits. Since this film has only 6 main cast members, this article's current cast list of 19 is in violation of the argument that "[I]t is standard practice on WP not to include minor roles in the cast section, which should be for listing only the main cast members", thus presenting the opportunity to reduce the article's cast list to 6. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 22:52, 1 September 2017 (UTC)
- I would list the 11 opening credits in the cast section and then any of the other notables could be summarized in paragraphs following, as with Pixels (2015 film). AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 01:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
- You know what, I think we should put it back to where it was before the changes that were made on it. BattleshipMan (talk) 01:49, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
- I added 11th-billed Larry Hankin, but deleted all cast names after 14th-billed Kristin Minter, thus reducing the cast list from 19 names to 14 names. See Talk:Home Alone#Larry Hankin in the opening credits of Home Alone. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 00:24, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- The rules for cast lists are much less strict than they are for the infobox (which must take space limitations into acount). I generally find it is helpful to list all the notable actors in the cast section (by this I mean those with articles, or are likely to have articles at some point). Beyond that it is largely down to consensus; if you are only missing a handful of names you may as well go for complete coverage, but if it is a large cast then editors need to select a sensible cut-off point. Betty Logan (talk) 12:21, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- On that basis, I have again revised Home Alone's cast so that it indicates the 11 names in opening credits (all of whom have Wikipedia articles) and, under sub-header "Selected cast list in closing credits", the 13 cherry-picked names (in on-screen order) who have articles and are only listed in closing credits. Thus, among the 52 cast names listed in closing credits, the cast list contains all 24 names with Wikipedia articles —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 00:45, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- The rules for cast lists are much less strict than they are for the infobox (which must take space limitations into acount). I generally find it is helpful to list all the notable actors in the cast section (by this I mean those with articles, or are likely to have articles at some point). Beyond that it is largely down to consensus; if you are only missing a handful of names you may as well go for complete coverage, but if it is a large cast then editors need to select a sensible cut-off point. Betty Logan (talk) 12:21, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- I added 11th-billed Larry Hankin, but deleted all cast names after 14th-billed Kristin Minter, thus reducing the cast list from 19 names to 14 names. See Talk:Home Alone#Larry Hankin in the opening credits of Home Alone. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 00:24, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
- You know what, I think we should put it back to where it was before the changes that were made on it. BattleshipMan (talk) 01:49, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
- I would list the 11 opening credits in the cast section and then any of the other notables could be summarized in paragraphs following, as with Pixels (2015 film). AngusWOOF (bark • sniff) 01:07, 2 September 2017 (UTC)
Rotten Tomatoes' consensus
RT usually (when there are more than a few reviews) includes a consensus statement, often along the lines of "Engaging action sequences and a likable cast aren't enough to save Actionthriller Man from a weak script and predictable, cliched plot."
From what I have seen, we seem to quote this fairly often. That said, Binksternet has challenged the use at Movie 43 (which sounds horrible enough to haunt a few A-listers for years to come). The consensus statement is "Unsigned...not a reliable source."[6] While I don't always agree with anyone, Binksternet doesn't seem to be one to float trial balloons to challenge a consensus, so I checked here. I don't see anything for or against the use of this material. Yes, it is "unsigned". No, I don't think Binksternet is part of the cabal established to protect the stars of Movie 43.
This page does offer a link to Wikipedia:Review aggregators, an essay, which says, "...Rotten Tomatoes's reported 'consensus' and Metacritic's 'metascore' description are prose that may help readers understand a film's reception." While that wording is pretty definitive, an essay shouting "Respect my authoriti!" doesn't sell it for me.
Do we have anything more substantial on this? - SummerPhDv2.0 16:05, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- Oh, I've floated plenty of trial balloons in my time.
- I respect the essay Wikipedia:Review aggregators which tells us that the consensus text is acceptable. Erik wrote that in 2010, and I'm sure it's been the practice ever since. But who writes the consensus text at Rotten Tomatoes? At Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources we are told that "Content from a collaboratively created website may be acceptable if the content was authored by, and is credited to, credentialed members of the site's editorial staff." The consensus statement at Rotten Tomatoes is not credited, which is the main problem here. Binksternet (talk) 16:27, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- That section, WP:UGC, seems to be talking about user generated content, "Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal blogs, group blogs, internet forums, the Internet Movie Database (IMDb), the Comic Book Database (CBDB.com), content farms, most wikis including Wikipedia, and other collaboratively created websites" with your quote discussing an exception to that rule. Is RT's consensus user generated? - SummerPhDv2.0 18:58, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure it's written by the site's editorial team, but this isn't explicitly stated anywhere I can find. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:15, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- SummerPhDv2.0, Binksternet, NinjaRobotPirate: I'm positive that the critics' consensus is not user-generated. The Rotten Tomatoes staff adds a summary, especially after the number of reviews hit a certain threshold. I think if there is any individual who pens the consensus, it would be Tim Ryan. He wrote "Critics Consensus" articles on Rotten Tomatoes that were around years ago (though not anymore). Might be that it was simplified to penning a few dozen words for each film. Maybe someone can tweet to him about who does it? I don't see any reason to exclude the consensus on this basis; it is akin to a periodical giving their own nutshell on what critics thought. And sometimes there may not be such a nutshell available elsewhere, and I hate to have summary recaps of the critical reception be so numerical. A reason not to include it would be if the wording was essentially useless. For example, I did not include it for Gods of Egypt because it was a silly bit: "Look on Gods of Egypt, ye filmgoers, and despair! Nothing beside remains. Round the decay of this colossal wreck, boundless and bare. The lone and level sands stretch far away. (Apologies to Shelley.)" It does not say anything about why the film was bad. I take a similar approach with reviews if a critic is just funning around with slamming a film and not getting into why it was bad for them. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:50, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I agree that the RT consensus sometimes doesn't add anything useful. In general, though, I think it's OK. For classics, infamous flops, and cult films, you can often find better sources that analyze the film's reception in depth. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:34, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- SummerPhDv2.0, Binksternet, NinjaRobotPirate: I'm positive that the critics' consensus is not user-generated. The Rotten Tomatoes staff adds a summary, especially after the number of reviews hit a certain threshold. I think if there is any individual who pens the consensus, it would be Tim Ryan. He wrote "Critics Consensus" articles on Rotten Tomatoes that were around years ago (though not anymore). Might be that it was simplified to penning a few dozen words for each film. Maybe someone can tweet to him about who does it? I don't see any reason to exclude the consensus on this basis; it is akin to a periodical giving their own nutshell on what critics thought. And sometimes there may not be such a nutshell available elsewhere, and I hate to have summary recaps of the critical reception be so numerical. A reason not to include it would be if the wording was essentially useless. For example, I did not include it for Gods of Egypt because it was a silly bit: "Look on Gods of Egypt, ye filmgoers, and despair! Nothing beside remains. Round the decay of this colossal wreck, boundless and bare. The lone and level sands stretch far away. (Apologies to Shelley.)" It does not say anything about why the film was bad. I take a similar approach with reviews if a critic is just funning around with slamming a film and not getting into why it was bad for them. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 13:50, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
- I'm pretty sure it's written by the site's editorial team, but this isn't explicitly stated anywhere I can find. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 21:15, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
- That section, WP:UGC, seems to be talking about user generated content, "Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal blogs, group blogs, internet forums, the Internet Movie Database (IMDb), the Comic Book Database (CBDB.com), content farms, most wikis including Wikipedia, and other collaboratively created websites" with your quote discussing an exception to that rule. Is RT's consensus user generated? - SummerPhDv2.0 18:58, 4 September 2017 (UTC)
SummerPhDv2.0, Binksternet, NinjaRobotPirate: This is too funny, the answer just emerged here: "Jeff Giles, a 12-year Rotten Tomatoes veteran and the author of books like Llanview in the Afternoon: An Oral History of 'One Life to Live', writes what the site calls Critics Consensus, a one-sentence summary of the response to each film." Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 15:25, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Excellent. It seems Erik's shadow-career at NYT is finally paying some dividends for us.
- At the risk of totally stepping in it, I propose adding a brief statement to this style guide clarifying the authorship and general reliability of the "consensus" statements, with clear wiggle room to allow us to leave it out when the statement is not ... um ... clear (to those who need to brushed up on their Shelley) or is better replaced by a clear summary from another source. Thoughts? - SummerPhDv2.0 16:17, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Timing! My complaint is answered: Jeff Giles is the author. Binksternet (talk) 16:20, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- It caused me to do a double-take. I read that as "Jeff Giles, a 12-year-old Rotten Tomatoes veteran and the author...". Betty Logan (talk) 17:01, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, I was wondering why a preteen was writing the critical consensus statements. That NYT article was interesting because it mentions RT does fact checking and verifies whether reviews are positive/negative with journalists. I suppose we could add a line in the MOS about this. I might also include advise against adding one's one synthesis-tinged consensus based on the RT score. This is popular among some editors, who seem to believe that their insights are just as legitimate as the RT consensus. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:57, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- The biggest problem is editors extrapolating the RT scores to a wider critical consensus. RT only speaks for the reviews it has surveyed and there is no attempt to ensure they are representative. For a good example of how much difference this makes compare the scores for Ballerina and Leap, and take note that they are the same film, but just with a different voice cast... Betty Logan (talk) 18:26, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Yeah, I was wondering why a preteen was writing the critical consensus statements. That NYT article was interesting because it mentions RT does fact checking and verifies whether reviews are positive/negative with journalists. I suppose we could add a line in the MOS about this. I might also include advise against adding one's one synthesis-tinged consensus based on the RT score. This is popular among some editors, who seem to believe that their insights are just as legitimate as the RT consensus. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 17:57, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- It caused me to do a double-take. I read that as "Jeff Giles, a 12-year-old Rotten Tomatoes veteran and the author...". Betty Logan (talk) 17:01, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
- Adding the Rotten Tomatoes' consensus and Metacritic score to the Critical reception section has become standard practice. I'm fine with it, except for the case of films that don't really have a consensus at these sites because they just aren't well-known, and in the case of some really old films, which came out before these review aggregation sites were available. Using the sites at the beginning of the Critical reception section in these cases can be misleading. It's because of this that, in the case of really old films (or just some that came out before the sites existed), it's better to put the Rotten Tomatoes' consensus and Metacritic score later on in the Critical reception section. Our guideline also currently states, "For older films, it is important to distinguish between contemporary critical reception (from reviews published around the time of initial release) and subsequent reception (from reviews made at later dates). Use secondary sources to determine if a film's initial critical reception varies from the reputation it has today." We can try to not include the Rotten Tomatoes' consensus and Metacritic score for some articles, but editors like consistency, and they will want to add them anyway because they will not understand why whatever article in question should deviate from the rest. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:07, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
RT for older films
Flyer's comment above regarding inclusion of RT scores in older films recalls a recent discussion at Talk:The Shining (film). Based on that discussion I walked away with an understanding that the implicit consensus was not to include such scores for films that were released substantially before RT existed. Of course, that begs several questions, such as:
- For older films, should the RT score be included at all if no other sites have commented upon it?
- For older films, can the RT score be included as long as it's made explicitly clear that the score reflects a current view?
- When should the cut-off be for including RT scores?
In my ideal world the MoS would be updated to address this concern, perhaps not just for RT but also for other sites, but I admit I don't have high hopes without this at least going through an RfC. DonIago (talk) 16:26, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Although only an essay, WP:AGG states:
Aggregator scores are most effective and accurate for films released in the 2000s and beyond. This is because more reviews are available online and as a result contemporary critical reception is more clearly defined. Prior to the 2000s, Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic did not exist, and reviews were typically not online. Sources besides Rotten Tomatoes and Metacritic should be sought out for films released before the 2000s; reports of critical consensus will likely exist in print sources. E.g., Alien, released in 1979, has a score of 97% on Rotten Tomatoes, but the critical reception at the time of release was mixed.
- I am of the general view that aggregators should not be used for pre-2000 films, for the main reason that they mix retrospective and contemporary reviews and therefore do not give a clear representation of the contemporary reception or how opinion has evolved over time. This issue recently came up at 2001: A Space Odyssey (film), which incidentally adequately sums up the contemporary reception and the film's modern day reverance so I don't see how the article is improved by adding the RT score. I would say that for older films—especially classics that have been the subject of substantial commentary—we should be looking beyond aggregators for summaries of their critical standing. There is a valid point that in cases where opinion has not changed much then the aggregator score does not misrepresent the reception, but in cases where there has been a noticeable shift over time they are misleading and should be excluded. Granted, this is difficult because many editors see them as a regular feature and often you get "drive-bys" installing them on every article, but that doesn't mean we have to accept them or we can't discourage them. I am not going to launch a huge campaign to remove them but if they pop up on articles on my watchlist and I disagree with their inclusion I reserve the right to remove them. Betty Logan (talk) 16:47, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I think Betty has summed up my opinion fairly well. THe other flip side to this is that those older films with current RT scores frequently don't have a lot of RT reviews listed. So, then you get into statistical significance of the data. I think if you want to discuss "modern" views, then just look to RT as a source for providing individual reviews that you can summarize. I would stay away from using the aggregate as a "summary whole" and look more to third party sources that discuss it. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 19:38, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Rotten Tomatoes has flaws sure but I don't think the age of a film makes the Rotten Tomatoes score any less helpful or unhelpful depending on your opinion of Rotten Tomatoes. It still serves the same blunt overview. There is a tendency towards older films to get better scores because more of the positive reviews remain available for Rotten Tomatoes to catalog. For films before ~1990 I will try to point out that "Rotten Tomatoes retrospectively collected reviews from N critics ..." to give readers some context, and as you say in point 2. more context would be better. I wouldn't be in favor of removing them but for older films I would de-emphasize the score by putting it at the end of the Critical response section instead of at the start. If you are looking for a cutoff point why allow any Rotten Tomatoes scores from before 1998 when it was started? Any reasons for not including old Rotten Tomatoes scores come down to the same complaints everyone has about the flaws of Rotten Tomatoes and the general need to give those scores some context. -- 109.76.249.25 (talk) 19:43, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Except for the "aggregators should not be used for pre-2000 films," I agree with what Betty stated in her "I am of the general view" paragraph. I would obviously support explicit caution against using Rotten Tomatoes for very old films. I just don't think we should state that they shouldn't be used for pre-2000 films. Really, the WP:AGG essay should changed in that regard. If the older film's reception has generally remained consistent and the Rotten Tomatoes view reflects that, I don't see an issue with including Rotten Tomatoes, but I wouldn't place it at the beginning for very old films. And if the film's reception has changed, and the Rotten Tomatoes score/consensus is included in the part of the paragraph making the change clear, I think it's fine in that case as well. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:12, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- The problem though is that it is difficult to know for sure if a film's reputation has remained consistent unless you obtain independent evidence. With post-2000 films most reviews will be contemporary and if there is a shift over time the RT score can be double checked either through the Wayback machine or through the article's own page history. Pre-2000 that becomes impossible. Betty Logan (talk) 22:13, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Except for the "aggregators should not be used for pre-2000 films," I agree with what Betty stated in her "I am of the general view" paragraph. I would obviously support explicit caution against using Rotten Tomatoes for very old films. I just don't think we should state that they shouldn't be used for pre-2000 films. Really, the WP:AGG essay should changed in that regard. If the older film's reception has generally remained consistent and the Rotten Tomatoes view reflects that, I don't see an issue with including Rotten Tomatoes, but I wouldn't place it at the beginning for very old films. And if the film's reception has changed, and the Rotten Tomatoes score/consensus is included in the part of the paragraph making the change clear, I think it's fine in that case as well. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:12, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I really can't support the guideline stating that we should not use Rotten Tomatoes for pre-2000 films. I support cautioning against use of Rotten Tomatoes for very old films, and approaching this matter on the case-by-case basis I noted above. As this is a guideline, we should be guiding more than restricting anyway. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:21, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with using RT for older films PROVIDING that it's made clear that it is a contemporary take on the film AND it definitely should not be at the head of the section, but at the bottom, following the reviews of the time. You can also add the proviso that to be used there must be an adequate number of reviews to be aggregated. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:30, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- It's not a contemporary take though. If you take the entry for 2001: A Space Odyssey it has reviews dating from 1968 up to modern day. It mixes contemporary reviews with retrospective reviews, so doesn't accurately relay either standing. The only films where you can be sure that Rotten TOmatoes is accurately summarizing the contemporary receeption is post-2000, or thereabouts, when Rotten TOmatoes came into existence. Betty Logan (talk) 22:43, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- Rotten Tomatoes seems to create a new page for films on their re-release, judging by Terminator 2 3D and Phantasm Remastered. However, if you check the Phantasm reviews, you'll see there's one listed by Vincent Canby, who died in 2000. I checked a big budget film from 15 years ago, LOTR 3, and that seems to have accumulated quite a few retrospective reviews. I don't think there's any way to be sure that the RT score doesn't mix old and new reviews. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:52, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- You have to be careful to not be misled by the dates on the reviews: for example, the Sean Nelson review for Return of the King was aggregated last month but if you click through to the review you can see it is indeed from 2003. However you can also verify through Wayback that the RT rating was 94% so has hardly changed in the last five years; indeed, going back through the page history you can see it was 94% a decade ago. The salient point here is that we have a score trajectory for anything that was released while RT has been in existence. If the reception changes noticeably then Wayback can be used to source the contemporary reception. This is not possible for older films. Betty Logan (talk) 02:25, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Rotten Tomatoes seems to create a new page for films on their re-release, judging by Terminator 2 3D and Phantasm Remastered. However, if you check the Phantasm reviews, you'll see there's one listed by Vincent Canby, who died in 2000. I checked a big budget film from 15 years ago, LOTR 3, and that seems to have accumulated quite a few retrospective reviews. I don't think there's any way to be sure that the RT score doesn't mix old and new reviews. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 01:52, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- It's not a contemporary take though. If you take the entry for 2001: A Space Odyssey it has reviews dating from 1968 up to modern day. It mixes contemporary reviews with retrospective reviews, so doesn't accurately relay either standing. The only films where you can be sure that Rotten TOmatoes is accurately summarizing the contemporary receeption is post-2000, or thereabouts, when Rotten TOmatoes came into existence. Betty Logan (talk) 22:43, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- There's nothing wrong with using RT for older films PROVIDING that it's made clear that it is a contemporary take on the film AND it definitely should not be at the head of the section, but at the bottom, following the reviews of the time. You can also add the proviso that to be used there must be an adequate number of reviews to be aggregated. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 22:30, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I really can't support the guideline stating that we should not use Rotten Tomatoes for pre-2000 films. I support cautioning against use of Rotten Tomatoes for very old films, and approaching this matter on the case-by-case basis I noted above. As this is a guideline, we should be guiding more than restricting anyway. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 22:21, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
Betty, looking at the exchanges involving you, Kevskerr, WikiPedant and MarnetteD at the 2001: A Space Odyssey (film) article, as seen here, here, here and here, I don't see an issue with Rotten Tomatoes being included so late in the section. And I had seen it there before; it was there for sometime. It echoes what is stated by other sources; so I understand the argument that it's redundant. But I don't think that this particular case is a case we should be concerned about. I do question WikiPedant adding it as a reference for the following line, though: "2001: A Space Odyssey is now considered one of the major artistic works of the 20th century, with many critics and filmmakers considering it Kubrick's masterpiece." This line appears to be a topic sentence, and therefore doesn't need sourcing. If it does need sourcing, it should be attributed to a source that explicitly supports the line. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 20:37, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
Time to recognize Style sections as one of the Secondary contents?
There are FAs (Mulholland Drive (film) and Barton Fink) and the odd GA (Annie Hall) that feel the need the employ a Style section separate and apart from a (now conventional) Themes/Themes and interpretation section or Production sections. Sometimes it makes a lot of sense- some information/analysis of the writing and visual style will come from filmmakers themselves, some from critics, some from film scholars, making it a poor fit for the Production/Filming section(s); some of it doesn't exactly fit under the rubric of "themes". A standard, generic film like The Best Exotic Marigold Hotel (a GA) wouldn't need this, but sometimes, the style is such a standout feature that it would be hard to do minimal research while expanding a film article without finding commentary on the style. Ribbet32 (talk) 01:12, 5 September 2017 (UTC)
"secondary sources" for the film's reception are NOT the same thing as what many editors are likely to read "secondary sources" as
@Flyer22 Reborn: Can you seriously tell what "not the reviews themselves" means, or are you just asking rhetorical questions in revert summaries for the heck of it? Obviously (to me and other experienced Wikipedians) in this context "secondary sources" means something different from what it means throughout the rest of the page, where "secondary sources" would usually refer to secondary sources on the films themselves. Secondary sources on the films themselves includes reviews of the films, but they are primary sources on the films' reception, specifically on the question of whether a film's "initial critical reception varies from the reputation it has today".
Using the reviews themselves to determine if a film's initial critical reception varies from the reputation it has today is WP:OR, and is banned by policy. If we are assuming that people reading this MOS page are all already aware of the policy, then the whole sentence should be removed as redundant.
Linking WP:SECONDARY does not clarify any of this for editors who might need it clarified, and debateably makes it worse, since that page's saying that Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources.
could easily be read by such editors as saying that basing the Wikipedia articles about films on "tertiary sources" (ones that analyze a wide range of critical reviews from the time of initial release and later) is inappropriate.
Why not just tell people on the MOS page what the MOS page actually means, which is to use secondary sources for the film's reception, rather than the original film reviews, which are WP:PRIMARY sources for the film's reception?
Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:24, 8 September 2017 (UTC)
- I reverted you here and here because I did not find the text to be clear. Your explanation here on the talk page is much better. And I still feel that "secondary sources" should be linked in that paragraph. You stated, "Obviously (to me and other experienced Wikipedians) in this context 'secondary sources' means something different from what it means throughout the rest of the page." Eh? We cannot define secondary sources differently than the policy page. With regard to your wording, I would like to see the opinions of others watching this page. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:33, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Flyer22 Reborn: Eh? Did you read the policy page before accusing me to try to define the term "secondary sources" differently from it? What counts as a secondary source varies from topic to topic. Donald Keene's A History of Japanese Literature (Vol. 1) is a secondary source on most of the classical and medieval literary works it discusses, but is a primary source on itself and its author; a review of the book in Monumenta Nipponica is a secondary source for the book itself, theoretically a tertiary source for any pre-modern literary work it might quote Keene on, and a primary source on Keene's book's reputation among scholars.
- More on-point, one randomly cherry-picked review of a film is a secondary source (reliable or not) for the content of the film itself, but is a primary source for the critical reception of the film. It is original research to gather collections of "early" and "recent" reviews of a film, and contrast the reception the film had on its initial release to its current reputation.
- Anyway, if you cannot present a coherent argument against my wording, other than saying that you personally find it hard to understand (when it seems you find the wording you restored equally hard to understand), then constantly reverting me and saying that you "would like to see the opinions of others watching this page" is not helpful.
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:25, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Why are you pinging me when I obviously watch this page? I didn't accuse you of anything. You are the same as ever with your misinterpretations, I see, including below with your response to Izno, which literally makes it difficult to have a discussion with you. Unless you actually defined secondary sources in the guideline differently than we do at WP:Secondary sources, you didn't define a thing on the matter. You stated, "Obviously (to me and other experienced Wikipedians) in this context 'secondary sources' means something different from what it means throughout the rest of the page, where 'secondary sources' would usually refer to secondary sources on the films themselves." All I stated was "We cannot define secondary sources differently than the policy page." Of course I've read the policy page; it's on my watchlist, just like a number of other policies and guidelines. You claimed that I can't provide a coherent argument against your wording. And yet my argument that your wording is not clear is echoed by others in this section. If it was as clear as you think it is, everyone in this section would be supporting it. No one is. Your wording states: "Use secondary sources for the films' reception (not the original reviews themselves) to determine if a film's initial critical reception varies from the reputation it has today." What is meant by "the original reviews themselves"? Does this mean the initial reviews that came out at the time? If so, an editor can take that to mean that we should not use an original review that is noting that the film received largely negative reviews to report that the film received largely negative reviews at the time. We can do that; we can write a sentence about the film having received largely negative reviews in whatever year. And then we can write a sentence, using up-to-date sources, noting that the modern reception of the film has received largely positive reviews...if those up-to-date sources state that. That would not be WP:OR/WP:Synthesis. That would be citations supporting each individual sentence. What we should not do is throw together sources and use wording that is not supported by the sources; that would be WP:Synthesis. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:49, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Can we say something like "high-level" in regard to sources that assess any evolution of critical response to a film? Or something synonymous to that? I was not sure about "tertiary" (see WP:TERTIARY) because the bulleted description does not seem to match what we're discussing, yet the policy-labeled passage matches what we want to say. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 00:40, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Erik: I don't think we should say "tertiary", since that has the same problem as using "secondary" without defining it. We should of course not use tertiary sources for the evolution of critical response to a film, if such sources ("quaternary sources" for the film itself?) even exist, and telling editors to use tertiary sources for the film itself would miss the point as what we are actually telling them to use is secondary sources for the film's critical reception. "high-level" is a weird term that looks like it means "high-standard" or "reputable", and I don't think replacing "secondary sources" with "high-level sources" would address the problem, if I am even reading your suggestion correctly? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:25, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- I left a note at WP:Film about weighing in (since some editors there may not have this page watchlisted). Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 00:58, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Can we say something like "high-level" in regard to sources that assess any evolution of critical response to a film? Or something synonymous to that? I was not sure about "tertiary" (see WP:TERTIARY) because the bulleted description does not seem to match what we're discussing, yet the policy-labeled passage matches what we want to say. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 00:40, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- I think both texts are unclear. Is the intent of the current text "use a secondary source which says 'the commentary changed'" or is the intent of the current text "use a secondary source to state more recent opinion, which may differ from the opinion from contemporary sources"? --Izno (talk) 01:42, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- (Mind you, I think both are fine, but if both are fine, we should say both are fine rather than the ambiguity of the present text. --Izno (talk) 01:44, 9 September 2017 (UTC))
- @Izno: What exactly the original intent of whoever wrote the text in the first place was is beyond me (Ctrl+F the page history for "Critical response" and it shouldn't be too hard to figure out who that was, though). But I read it as putting the MOS recommendation in the context of NOR by telling editors not to collect a bunch of reviews and create an original comparison of the "early" and "recent" ones, and to use secondary sources that make the comparison instead. I saw this as problematic, though, since the wording it used made it look it was encouraging the opposite by telling editors to use the critical reviews themselves. The phrase "secondary sources" appears ten times on this page, with the exception of the passage in question, and in every single case we are contrasting "secondary sources" (critical reviews) to primary sources (the films themselves).
- Put simply, my reading (and the one my edit reinforced) is the former one you suggest. I don't agree that both are acceptable. The second one you present is a fairly clear NOR-violation. We are not allowed take one source that says one thing and a later source that says something else, and claim based on the contradiction that the film's reputation has changed, unless the latter source explicitly makes this contrast (in which case the two readings you present are the same). If two sources present apparently contradictory claims in a matter-of-fact manner, we can't assume both were completely accurate for the time (as opposed to, say, the place) where they are published and combine the two to state that the situation has changed. (I mention place because, if we have a Japanese source from 1970 that says American Film A has a poor reputation among critics and a French one from 2012 that says the same film is well-loved by critics, we can't assume that the French source isn't describing something that was always the case in France. This is just one of the countless possible problems with that idea.)
- Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:25, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- You misinterpret my second interpretation--I didn't say anything in that comment about using the source to make a statement that "they are different", only that "the second source may observe something different from the first, which we would document simply as a different observation", which we would document naturally per WP:NPOV.
- To make the second clear, here's some text: "A said B about C today.(ref 1) D said E about C when it was released.(ref 2)". The first is "A said B about C today.(ref 1) D said E about C when it was released.(ref 2) This shows a change.(ref 3)". This is why the text looks ambiguous to me, because it is not obvious whether situation 1 or 2 is implied.
- That said, we do need to summarize the changed state of things even if it's not in a reference--this is Composition 101. How do you propose to do so? I know that some will use aggregator summaries (which will often have such a statement), and more often than not, I would guess that old creative works will have a reliable source, which often says the same as in ref 2 and in ref 3, in my example; namely, that it was X and now it is Y and that this shows change Z, but some do not. We don't just drop a change in frame on someone's head without announcing a change of frame. --Izno (talk) 14:39, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
You misinterpret my second interpretation--I didn't say anything in that comment about using the source to make a statement that "they are different", only that "the second source may observe something different from the first, which we would document simply as a different observation", which we would document naturally per WP:NPOV.
I'm not misinterpreting anything -- the whole point of the passage is discussing the critical reception of films whose reputations have changed; if we are not trying to say "they are different", then there is no point. And yes, you are right that we should write our articles in accord with NPOV, but NOR and V trump NPOV in those cases: I've seen it happen in a half-dozen deletion discussions. To make the second clear, here's some text: "[...]This shows a change.(ref 3)".
Your clarification makes it clear that both the first and second are the same.This shows a change.(ref 3)
is the same as first one, as both are saying that a change has taken place with a secondary source that explicitly states as much. The rest is messy and should probably be avoided, but that's not related to the question of what "secondary sources" means.- And no, we are not allowed say things that can't be backed up by references to reliable sources. That's WP:V. If you actually mean what you say by
we do need to summarize the changed state of things even if it's not in a reference--this is Composition 101.
that shows a severe misunderstanding of Wikipedia policy.How do you propose to do so?
If we don't have a reliable source that verifies the content we want to write, then we can't write it. That's the policy.I would guess that old creative works will have a reliable source, [...] but some do not.
In the latter case ... well, ideally I would prefer that any article on a topic that has not be covered in enough reliable sources that we can write a neutral, accurate and verifiable summary of its critical reception, that article should be deleted or merged per WP:GNG. But I know a lot of people like having stub articles that contain nothing but fluff, and it would be easier just to leave out content that can't be attributed to reliable sources.We don't just drop a change in frame on someone's head without announcing a change of frame.
? - Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:11, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)
Comment maybe we could drop the terminology altogether and put it into clear English: "Use sources that explicitly address the critical reception to determine if a film's initial critical reception varies from the reputation it has today; do not WP:SYNTHESIZE a film's critical reputation by comparing reviews yourself." It doesn't have to be exactly like that, but you get the gist. Betty Logan (talk) 14:38, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- I agree with this suggestion, Betty. My issue with Hijiri88's wording is that, like I stated above, "What is meant by 'the original reviews themselves'? Does this mean the initial reviews that came out at the time? If so, an editor can take that to mean that we should not use an original review that is noting that the film received largely negative reviews to report that the film received largely negative reviews at the time. We can do that; we can write a sentence about the film having received largely negative reviews in whatever year. And then we can write a sentence, using up-to-date sources, noting that the modern reception of the film has received largely positive reviews...if those up-to-date sources state that. That would not be WP:OR/WP:Synthesis. That would be citations supporting each individual sentence. What we should not do is throw together sources and use wording that is not supported by the sources; that would be WP:Synthesis." Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:49, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- Agree to Betty's solution. I honestly have no earthly idea what F22R is on about at this point (are we disagreeing over what a "review" is -- it was clearly meant to refer to a film review), but that doesn't matter. Let's just put Betty's wording in place. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 23:32, 9 September 2017 (UTC)
- If you don't understand what I mean, or what Izno was stating, then, yeah, it's best to move on and see if we should go with Betty's exact wording or alter it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:50, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Ditto. And you're right; even though I didn't state as much (because I hadn't seen it), I don't understand Izno's comment. It's possible that Izno is saying we should through both NOR and V out the window when it comes to the critical reception section of old films, but per WP:AGF I'm supposed to assume that I am simply misreading Izno's comment. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:11, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
- For the record, I support Betty's exact wording. How about you, Erik and Izno? Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:58, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
- Same here -- I thought that was obvious from my comment. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 02:11, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
- Betty's is better. --Izno (talk) 19:02, 12 September 2017 (UTC)
- From a grammatical perspective, I would suggest additional clarification and reducing the use of "reception" and/or "reputation":
- Use sources that explicitly analyze a film's overall critical reception when explaining a contrast between the way it was initially received and the way it was received at a later date; do not synthesize this evolution by comparing reviews yourself.
- Maybe that's a bit wordy and can be shortened a bit, but I think it's important to mention "overall critical reception" in that first part. Thoughts? --GoneIn60 (talk) 02:34, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- In some cases it may be difficult to find sources that discuss the overall reception. In many cases you will find contemporary sources that discuss the reception and modern-day sources that discuss the film's current critical standing, and you might not be able to find a sources that cover both. I don't think this is a problem in itself provided you don't draw any new conclusions; you'd just be using two separate sources to outline its critical standing at two separate points in time. My original wording was much closers to yours, but I altered it after I realized it was imposing a condition that didn't necessarily need to be met (unless you actually want to explain the process of how opinion changed) and one that might not be be possible to meet. Betty Logan (talk) 03:36, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Betty, yes I agree. I think my explanation above may have been misleading. You would need a contemporary source that shows the overall "initial" reception, and then another modern-day source that shows the overall reception at a later point in time. I didn't meant to suggest that one source should cover both. My concern is that in either case, we should be using sources that gauge consensus as a whole and not relying on sources that only survey one author's opinion (if that makes sense). --GoneIn60 (talk) 06:45, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- I take issue with "overall" per Betty's reasoning. I would have stated similarly had I seen your proposed wording first. Even without "overall," I think that your "when explaining a contrast between the way it was initially received and the way it was received at a later date" wording may be taken to mean that the source(s) should cover both, especially with the "do not synthesize this evolution by comparing reviews yourself" piece ending the statement. If it's not clear by my earlier commentary above, I can easily see editors thinking that including a source about the reception a film had one year and a different source about the reception a film has now is synthesis. It's not synthesis unless we are tying the two together in way that the sources don't explicitly support. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:04, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- I can see how my attempt to add clarity may have backfired. The lingering concern, however, is that we aren't cherry-picking a couple reviews from a given point in time to show that reception was positive, mixed, or negative. We should be using sources that assess the critical consensus (or the overall reception) for us and not the individual reviews themselves. Using individual reviews to show how a film was received a long time ago would be a form of inappropriate aggregation. RT and MC do that aggregation for us now, but for older films, we obviously have to look for other sources as replacements. As long as this is clear, I'm indifferent on how it should be worded. --GoneIn60 (talk) 06:08, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- I think "do not WP:SYNTHESIZE a film's critical reputation by comparing reviews yourself" is probably fairly self-explanatory. I'm at a loss at how to make it clearer than that. If an editor does disregard this guideline then it's probably because they haven't read it. Betty Logan (talk) 14:22, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- I can see how my attempt to add clarity may have backfired. The lingering concern, however, is that we aren't cherry-picking a couple reviews from a given point in time to show that reception was positive, mixed, or negative. We should be using sources that assess the critical consensus (or the overall reception) for us and not the individual reviews themselves. Using individual reviews to show how a film was received a long time ago would be a form of inappropriate aggregation. RT and MC do that aggregation for us now, but for older films, we obviously have to look for other sources as replacements. As long as this is clear, I'm indifferent on how it should be worded. --GoneIn60 (talk) 06:08, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
- I take issue with "overall" per Betty's reasoning. I would have stated similarly had I seen your proposed wording first. Even without "overall," I think that your "when explaining a contrast between the way it was initially received and the way it was received at a later date" wording may be taken to mean that the source(s) should cover both, especially with the "do not synthesize this evolution by comparing reviews yourself" piece ending the statement. If it's not clear by my earlier commentary above, I can easily see editors thinking that including a source about the reception a film had one year and a different source about the reception a film has now is synthesis. It's not synthesis unless we are tying the two together in way that the sources don't explicitly support. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 23:04, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- Betty, yes I agree. I think my explanation above may have been misleading. You would need a contemporary source that shows the overall "initial" reception, and then another modern-day source that shows the overall reception at a later point in time. I didn't meant to suggest that one source should cover both. My concern is that in either case, we should be using sources that gauge consensus as a whole and not relying on sources that only survey one author's opinion (if that makes sense). --GoneIn60 (talk) 06:45, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- In some cases it may be difficult to find sources that discuss the overall reception. In many cases you will find contemporary sources that discuss the reception and modern-day sources that discuss the film's current critical standing, and you might not be able to find a sources that cover both. I don't think this is a problem in itself provided you don't draw any new conclusions; you'd just be using two separate sources to outline its critical standing at two separate points in time. My original wording was much closers to yours, but I altered it after I realized it was imposing a condition that didn't necessarily need to be met (unless you actually want to explain the process of how opinion changed) and one that might not be be possible to meet. Betty Logan (talk) 03:36, 13 September 2017 (UTC)
- From a grammatical perspective, I would suggest additional clarification and reducing the use of "reception" and/or "reputation":
- If you don't understand what I mean, or what Izno was stating, then, yeah, it's best to move on and see if we should go with Betty's exact wording or alter it. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 01:50, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
comment: An experienced editor already knows how to interpret secondary sources in this context without additional explanation. If an editor can't comprehend this MOS guideline with their current understanding of policy, then perhaps their competence to edit Wikipedia should be brought into question. This MOS guideline even provides a link to WP:secondary sources and WP:SYNTH appears right below it on the very same page! So, adding in another sentence, or another paragraph for further clarification only serves to complicate things and seems like an exercise in redundancy to me. It appears that a problem is being created where none exists. As Betty Logan pointed out, it's only a problem if a user disregards the policy, and can be easily corrected by guiding them to the policy so they can read it. This MOS guideline already points to those policies... Huggums537 (talk) 03:05, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
- @Huggums537: You have scarcely 600 edits to your name -- are you trying to tell me that you know more about how experienced editors read these guidelines than I do? And how is
An experienced editor already knows
even relevant? The point is that inexperienced editors are going to misread (or, rather, already are misreading) "secondary sources" as meaning the same thing the phrase means elsewhere on this page. On top of that, the only reason to link WP:SECONDARY is to tell editors that it doesn't mean comparing reviews oneself; in other words, linking WP:SYNTH is inherently better than linking WP:SECONDARY. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
- Further entirely unnecessary comment Why has one of the very similar proposals not been implemented yet? I just want
do not WP:SYNTHESIZE a film's critical reputation by comparing reviews yourself
(which is the essence of my original edit, just worded better) added, and it seems like pretty much everyone is in agreement on it. I join Betty at her loss as to how to make it clearer. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:34, 15 September 2017 (UTC)