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:::::::But what would be the justification for tmaking a special exception for "into"? Surely it should follow the same rules as every other preposition. --[[User:Robsinden|Rob Sinden]] ([[User talk:Robsinden|talk]]) 09:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC) |
:::::::But what would be the justification for tmaking a special exception for "into"? Surely it should follow the same rules as every other preposition. --[[User:Robsinden|Rob Sinden]] ([[User talk:Robsinden|talk]]) 09:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::Other than avoiding arguments such as the Star Trek one, I have nothing. [[User:Sonicdrewdriver|drewmunn]] ([[User talk:Sonicdrewdriver|talk]]) 09:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC) |
::::::::Other than avoiding arguments such as the Star Trek one, I have nothing. [[User:Sonicdrewdriver|drewmunn]] ([[User talk:Sonicdrewdriver|talk]]) 09:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC) |
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::::::::The suggestion at [[WT:MOS#WP:NCCAPS → "shorter than five letters" rule]] is to abandon the letter-counting approach to preposition capitalization and instead identify which prepositions get capitalized and which don't. It wouldn't be a "special exception" for any of them. -- [[User:JHunterJ|JHunterJ]] ([[User talk:JHunterJ|talk]]) 13:30, 19 December 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 13:30, 19 December 2012
Error: The code letter for the topic area in this contentious topics talk notice is not recognised or declared. Please check the documentation.
Manual of Style | ||||||||||
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Manual of Style (MoS) |
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"Unnecessary capitalization"
There are a few editors who vehemently believe that the phrasing "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization," found in the lead of this style guideline, should be interpreted to mean that if any significant number of sources avoid capitalizing an item, then Wikipedia should never capitalize it. That is, if some sources don't capitalize, then the capitalization is clearly "unnecessary", and the lead sentence of this guideline thus demands that we avoid it.
But I think this might be overstating the case. The specific sentence in question is not well supported in the main text of the guideline, except in so far as it applies to specific subject areas. It is not addressed in the general sense, and I think it may appear more strict that it was intended to be. I suggest that a modified wording -- perhaps "gratuitous capitalization" -- might make more sense. It would allow us the leeway to use capitalization to mark something as a proper noun when it is useful to distinguish a specific use from the general, such as with Crown of Thorns or Cuban Missile Crisis.
In either case, whichever way we decide, examples and a detailed explanation of how the consensus interpretation was arrived at should be added to the guideline to complement the specific subject-area examples already present.
-- Powers T 15:47, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose modified wording suggestion. (If it ain't broke – don't fix it. :)
- Although I was not involved in the consensus discussion to rename Crown of Thorns to crown of thorns, I agree with the sound reasons given. The Cuban Missile Crisis move request discussion is still ongoing, so it does not seem appropriate to change MOSCAPS to possibly influence the outcome of that discussion, and I do not choose to comment here on that issue.
FWIW —Telpardec TALK 19:07, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
I am one of those who favor the WP style and its clear statement that ""Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization." We had general agreement on "words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in sources are treated as proper names and capitalized in Wikipedia" (though Noetica quibbles with "proper names" as the right characterization); where sources are inconsistent, there's no harm in WP preferring the style of not capitalizing. LtPowers's logic that "there's only one so it must be a proper name" is not supported in WP or anywhere else that I know of. Dicklyon (talk) 19:49, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- You are mischaracterizing my argument, which is an indication that you do not understand it. It is little surprise that you oppose the straw man version of my contention, but please don't think it accurately represents what I think. Powers T 20:10, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- Hmm; I don't know what you think, then, if that isn't it. In addition to chastising, can you present your non-strawman contention to clear things up? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:36, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
I also think it's reasonable the way it is and is being interpreted, as you described. I like the opening paragraph as is: "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization. Most capitalization is for proper names or for acronyms and initialisms. Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is a proper name; words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in sources are treated as proper names and capitalized in Wikipedia." ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:36, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- But the opening paragraph should be a summary of the contents below, but "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization" is not supported by the content in the rest of the page. Do you know there was once a contention that our article on Halley's Comet should be at Halley's comet? An exception had to be written into this guideline to avoid that result. Powers T 23:15, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
I have stayed away from this forum since my painstakingly consultative efforts to bring the lead up to standard were hijacked by those with a separate agenda. In particular, PMAnderson's sockpuppet User:JCScaliger was deployed provocatively against me (here and elsewhere), and used disruption of the lead as part of that campaign. Of course I backed off. An admin had site-banned PMA for a year, and ArbCom has since added an indefinite prohibition on his involvement with MOS issues interpreted broadly. I am not yet ready again to take up the issue of the lead, which remains factually defective, ignores current linguistic theory, and is seriously misleading as a guide for article titles, RM discussions, and much more on Wikipedia.
I will just say this, for now: "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization" has stood as a guiding principle through all these shifts. It is solidly in accord with our reliable sources (that is, major style resources across the English-speaking world). It is not meaningless as some allege, since however "unnecessary" gets interpreted, the statement efficiently records a consensus against unprincipled capitalisation. It is not abused in RM discussions such as the current one at Talk:Cuban Missile Crisis – where no matter what precise numbers are extracted from the sources, and however "unnecessary" gets interpreted, capitalisation is plainly optional because it is plainly avoided in a large proportion of publications. That finding, combined with our statement, yields robust guidance to settle time-wasting disputes. A pity the rest of the lead undoes some of that good work.
NoeticaTea? 23:38, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
- You're missing the point (amidst your typical self-aggrandization... "my painstakingly consultative efforts to bring the lead up to standard were hijacked" indeed). The problem is that any use of lowercase in sources is seen by you, Tony, and Dick as rendering capitalization "optional", and thus verboten on Wikipedia. That's the whole reason why I suggest the word "necessary" must go; it's being used as a bludgeon by the three of you against anyone who dares disagree with your consensus-of-three. Here's Dicklyon: "Even if current usage were majority caps ... , we would use lower case, per MOS:CAPS." That's right, even if a majority of sources think that a phrase is a proper noun and thus should be capitalized, Dicklyon suggests that MOS:CAPS requires us to use lowercase. That's absurd, and clear evidence that MOS:CAPS is being abused, if it can be construed to produce such an absurd conclusion. Powers T 20:19, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you want to test that theory, it would be better to do so in the context of a title that actually does have majority upper case in sources. That's not the case with Cuban missile crisis, nor crown of thorns, as has been demonstrated ("painstakingly" even, as Noetica points out). Dicklyon (talk) 22:20, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Powers:
- If you must make impotent attacks instead of contributing to the development of the Manual of Style, please at least have substance to support them. "Self-aggrandization"? Review the dialogue that I initiated and you will see that those efforts were indeed painstakingly consultative. It's in the archives here. Note my 1000-word initial post which canvassed all relevant issues for the benefit of editors, and the way I stewarded proceedings from there. Note how eventually the discussion was waylaid by sockpuppeting political activity that ruined everything. I withdrew, when that came to the fore. Note that your voice was entirely absent, though you had every opportunity to contribute, as many of your colleagues here did.
- Your allegations are ridiculous and offensive. No one is abusing the long-standing key provision in the lead of MOSCAPS. You are simply not paying attention, as we can see from statements like this: "That's right, even if a majority of sources think that a phrase is a proper noun and thus should be capitalized, Dicklyon suggests that MOS:CAPS requires us to use lowercase." Have you actually read what you pretend to report on here (this RM discussion)? The term "proper noun" does not appear anywhere in that discussion. Nor should it. You have repeatedly failed to grasp the dynamics of the issue. If you had read the 1000-word post that I refer to above, you might have some sense of what is going on. I suggest you do that; then reflect on what a manual of style is, and how style differs from content, and how an encyclopedia must use its sources differently with respect to content and style. Come back when you are better informed and ready for a civil dialogue. ♥
- NoeticaTea? 23:30, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- For the billionth time, Noetica, you don't get to decide who gets to participate in discussions. Powers T 14:46, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand. I never wanted to decide any such thing; I called for, and welcomed, as many comments as could be got from all quarters. No one was left out because of time limitations, or for any other reason. Nor do I begin to comprehend "for the billionth time". My push is always for genuine, wide-open community discussion. I would seek to exclude a user who is topic-banned from such discussions, who comes in under a cloak of sockpuppetry to sabotage consensual process and to wage a campaign against me in several forums (including ArbCom). That's all. Can we move on? NoeticaTea? 01:40, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
- "Come back when you are better informed and ready for a civil dialogue." I am always prepared for civil dialogue; that I disagree with you is not an indication of incivility, although it seems like you often conflate the two. So I am not about to let you dictate when and where I can participate in discussions based on your notions of whether or not I'm being civil. Powers T 19:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think Noetica was referring to your phrasing "amidst your typical self-aggrandization" and your characterization of our position as "absurd". I agree it's a bit uncivil and too personal to say that the long-standing phrasing and interpretation of MOS:CAPS is due to me and Noetica and Tony and is absurd. In fact, though we have been active in moving toward better MOS compliance, many other editors also help with that. I don't mind if you have a different opinion of what the MOS should say or how it should be interpreted, but try not to be so obnoxious about it. Dicklyon (talk) 20:47, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- You three almost always vote in lockstep; it's like clockwork. You're in accord on almost every naming-related issue I've seen. There may be others who agree with you, but the regularity with which the three of you show up to comment is astounding. Regardless, I'd be happy to return to discussing the merits of your interpretation of the phrasing. Do you care to respond to my point that taking such a strict view of capitalization-only-when-unanimous is non-optimal for the reader? Or the fact that such wording as you rely on for your characterization is present only in a segment of the policy designed to summarize the policy and not in the more detailed body of the policy? Powers T 23:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- (Sheesh, no wonder I've been staying away from this talkpage.) Lockstep like at this current RM, you mean? And if you look at the history you will see that Dicklyon and I have edited in opposing directions on the lead of this very page, which we are now discussing. I might as well complain that you vote in lockstep with Kauffner and JHunterJ, the propriety of whose move closures is currently under examination at ArbCom, and where you support his closures as predictably as I (and several others) censure them (see preserved comments, including yours and mine).
As I say, let's move on; but do acquaint yourself with the relevant facts of English first, by reading and understanding the painstaking 1000-word post that I link above. It is essential background that you currently lack.
Then I might consider replying to your own specific questions.
♥ NoeticaTea? 05:04, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- (Sheesh, no wonder I've been staying away from this talkpage.) Lockstep like at this current RM, you mean? And if you look at the history you will see that Dicklyon and I have edited in opposing directions on the lead of this very page, which we are now discussing. I might as well complain that you vote in lockstep with Kauffner and JHunterJ, the propriety of whose move closures is currently under examination at ArbCom, and where you support his closures as predictably as I (and several others) censure them (see preserved comments, including yours and mine).
- You three almost always vote in lockstep; it's like clockwork. You're in accord on almost every naming-related issue I've seen. There may be others who agree with you, but the regularity with which the three of you show up to comment is astounding. Regardless, I'd be happy to return to discussing the merits of your interpretation of the phrasing. Do you care to respond to my point that taking such a strict view of capitalization-only-when-unanimous is non-optimal for the reader? Or the fact that such wording as you rely on for your characterization is present only in a segment of the policy designed to summarize the policy and not in the more detailed body of the policy? Powers T 23:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think Noetica was referring to your phrasing "amidst your typical self-aggrandization" and your characterization of our position as "absurd". I agree it's a bit uncivil and too personal to say that the long-standing phrasing and interpretation of MOS:CAPS is due to me and Noetica and Tony and is absurd. In fact, though we have been active in moving toward better MOS compliance, many other editors also help with that. I don't mind if you have a different opinion of what the MOS should say or how it should be interpreted, but try not to be so obnoxious about it. Dicklyon (talk) 20:47, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- "Come back when you are better informed and ready for a civil dialogue." I am always prepared for civil dialogue; that I disagree with you is not an indication of incivility, although it seems like you often conflate the two. So I am not about to let you dictate when and where I can participate in discussions based on your notions of whether or not I'm being civil. Powers T 19:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't understand. I never wanted to decide any such thing; I called for, and welcomed, as many comments as could be got from all quarters. No one was left out because of time limitations, or for any other reason. Nor do I begin to comprehend "for the billionth time". My push is always for genuine, wide-open community discussion. I would seek to exclude a user who is topic-banned from such discussions, who comes in under a cloak of sockpuppetry to sabotage consensual process and to wage a campaign against me in several forums (including ArbCom). That's all. Can we move on? NoeticaTea? 01:40, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
- For the billionth time, Noetica, you don't get to decide who gets to participate in discussions. Powers T 14:46, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Powers, I've never advocated that one lower-case use vetoes otherwise consistent caps; I in fact specifically denied such a radical position when the wording of the lead was last extensively discussed and revised. See Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters/Archive_6#General_principles. Also note that Noetica has never been happy with the wording that DGG proposed and I inserted into the lead, and he tried to change it, over my objection, and got dragged into an arbcom proceeding partly based on the shit-storm that ensued. So far this lead is as close as we've come to consensus on this particular guideline. Dicklyon (talk) 05:33, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- And I disagree with Dicklyon on that last point. The present lead is amateurish garbage, and nothing like consensual. It is not even founded in linguistic facts, or facts about the competence of "reliable sources" to rule on proper names. Sources that are reliable for content are generally clueless about proper names (and matters of linguistics more broadly). Wikipedian principles concerning reliable sources only ever envisaged their use for settling content, not for their linguistic prowess or their stylistic acumen.
- When people are ready to move through this slowly and attentively, I will once again be ready to show in detail how the lead is broken and how it might be repaired. Then we could have a genuine discussion toward a genuine consensus.
- NoeticaTea? 06:24, 19 June 2012 (UTC) ☺
- Yes, yes, you will someday bestow your wisdom upon the masses that we might be enlightened. Can we get back to discussing the merits, please? Powers T 19:25, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you really want informed and consensual improvements to the lead of this crucial MOS page, let me know. On the other hand, if you are more comfortable at a level of wilful avoidance when someone with relevant specialist knowledge posts here, that's your limitation and no one else can do anything about it. A pity for the Project; but no problem for me personally.
☺ NoeticaTea? 00:39, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you really want informed and consensual improvements to the lead of this crucial MOS page, let me know. On the other hand, if you are more comfortable at a level of wilful avoidance when someone with relevant specialist knowledge posts here, that's your limitation and no one else can do anything about it. A pity for the Project; but no problem for me personally.
- Yes, yes, you will someday bestow your wisdom upon the masses that we might be enlightened. Can we get back to discussing the merits, please? Powers T 19:25, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- I apologize for exaggerating your adherence to the textual equivalent of the one-drop rule, Dick. May I ask, then, what percentage (apparently greater than 0.001% but less than 50%) is the minimum proportion of lower-case usage required to determine that a phrase is not a proper noun, based on your reading of this guideline? And is there any support for that reading beyond a single very general sentence in the lead of this guideline? And under what circumstances would you support an exception to this guideline (which, by definition, is supposed to allow for common sense exceptions)? Powers T 19:25, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't have an answer. Do you? You could look at my capitalization history and try to find cases where I've switched to lower case, or argued for lower case, where the percentage of lower case in sources is relatively low; then we'd have something to talk about. Dicklyon (talk) 00:57, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- I've been watching this thread for a few days, noting Powers's uncivil and sarcastic comments and expressions of unusual logic. I suppose I should change my signature to Noetica–Dick–Tony, should I? I'm feeling like the tail-end of a Siamese triplet: is this a reasonable item of gossip to be putting about, Powers? Am I allowed to comment without accusations that I'm a sock or a conspiratorial backchanneller? Tony (talk) 04:28, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't have an answer. Do you? You could look at my capitalization history and try to find cases where I've switched to lower case, or argued for lower case, where the percentage of lower case in sources is relatively low; then we'd have something to talk about. Dicklyon (talk) 00:57, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
Make an exception to the MoS capitalization guidelines for the job titles
Make an exception to the MoS capitalization guidelines for the job titles: Chief Mechanical Engineer and Locomotive Superintendent
Please comment on the talk page. Jojalozzo 15:04, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Moved from WP:Requests_for_comment/Request_board Coastside (talk) 22:45, 14 June 2012 (UTC)
- Can we ignore this, or is someone re-opening a request for an MoS exception? Dicklyon (talk) 03:24, 15 June 2012 (UTC)
Relevant move request
Talk:Wild_Turkey#Requested_move—FYI. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:26, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
- Pardon, to avoid sending you there if this kind of thing isn't interesting to you, I should have noted that this has to do with the bird exception at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Common_names. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 23:28, 18 June 2012 (UTC)
Black and White people
Old debate, reborn. I think this should at least be mentioned in the MOS. Fact is, it's strange that ALL nationalities and ethnicities are capitalized in English except for these two words. I've heard all the arguments, the main two being:
- "Black" and "White" are catch-all terms and do not refer to a single nationality or ethnicity
- "Black" and "White" are ordinary words denoting colors, therefore no need to capitalize them.
Simple answers to both -
- "Asian" is a much larger catch-all term referring to over 2.5 billion people, or nearly half the world's population, and that's capitalized
- "White" and "Black" are color words, but their meaning is clearly different (Black people aren’t black and White people aren’t white), but the words refer specifically to ethnicity.
Most dictionaries have "black" and "white", but most of the major ones, especially the OED, are descriptive, therefore reflect usage. The current usage prevails with non-capitalization, but there's no guarantee this won't change at some point in the future.
An increasing number of websites capitalize these two terms and I believe it should at least be mentioned both in the MoS and in the relevant aricles for Black people and White people that there is a debate and a dual usage on spelling. I also believe WP editors should be allowed to write "Black/White" in an article if they wish to, instead of "black/white", without fear that someone will come along after them and revert the caps. After all, a lot of source material used as references in WP articles uses the capitalized forms. Just in the same way that the choice of American or British English is left to the authors (e.g. color/colour) as long as, of course, there's consistency within the article.
Let's not forget that Wikipedia is itself a descriptive encyclopedia. It therefore needs to reflect the usage of a large portion of the world's English-speaking population who think these two words (the ONLY two ethnic descriptors in the entire language to lack capitalization!) should be capitalized. BigSteve (talk) 08:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
p.s. This is just as a by-the-by and not an argument, but simply food-for-thought: the French language, which does not capitalize ethnicity/nationality words when they are used as adjectives but does capitalize them when they're used as direct demonyms (i.e. "une personne anglaise" but "un Anglais") does capitalise "un Blanc/les Blancs" and "un Noir/les Noirs" (not always, but certainly more often than is the practice in English. Major dictionaries also reflect this – Larousse). Whereas English, which always capitalizes such words...doesn't do so with these particular two words. Strange or what... BigSteve (talk) 08:53, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- I think Asian comes under the rule that adjectives formed from proper nouns (and nouns based on them) are capitalized. --Boson (talk) 11:31, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- Might well be. But some rules come in on an individual basis, and I believe the argumentation for allowing the capitalization of "Black" and "White" is sound. Not to mention that the OED, which I somehow failed to point out earlier, acknowledges & allows these two capitalizations, as well as explaining that they indeed refer to groups of many ethnicities:
- black > adjective – 2 (also Black) belonging to or denoting any human group having dark-coloured skin, especially of Afrtican or Australian Aboriginal ancestry
- white > adjective – 2 (also White) belonging to or denoting a human group having light-coloured skin (chiefly used of peoples of European extraction)
- Oxford Dictionary of English – Second Edition, Revised. Oxford University Press, 2005.
- Can we therefore add a mention in the MOS that allows these 2 capitalizations? BigSteve (talk) 06:49, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
- Might well be. But some rules come in on an individual basis, and I believe the argumentation for allowing the capitalization of "Black" and "White" is sound. Not to mention that the OED, which I somehow failed to point out earlier, acknowledges & allows these two capitalizations, as well as explaining that they indeed refer to groups of many ethnicities:
- I don't think there is any question that they are often capitalized, and I see no compelling reason why the MoS should advise against that practice. Personally, I don't see a reason for explictly mentioning it at all. I suppose such a statement might be used as a justification for reversion when editors differ on whether "black" should be capitalized in a specific context, but I don't think that would necessarily be helpful. Like many other words, I think, "black" should be capitalized when used like a proper noun/adjective but not as a matter of course when used as a common noun or adjective (without implying self-identification with a particular ethnicity or culture) - even when "black" actually refers to a dark-brown skin colour. Hence, I would normally prefer the uncapitalized "black people", but I would prefer the capitalized "Black English" when referring to a particular language variety used by British people of African or Caribbean descent. I can see advantages and disadvantages in mentioning it. --Boson (talk) 11:46, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
- Certainly valid points, but I think it should be explicitly clarified in the MoS that the two words may be capitalized, as well as mention this in the White people & Black people articles. Because the case is far from clear – there are long discussions & arguing over the matter in nearly every archive of the Black people talk page – here are just a few examples – Arch-17, Arch-16, Arch-11, and quite a heated one here Arch-4 – and none of these long talk sections have come up with definitive conclusions but have merely petered out, until the next archive of the talk page. Hence why I feel the MoS should mention it, and say that it's okay to use both the capitalized and lowercased versions of both words in all articles. The fact that the words are lowercased in nearly all articles, despite the amount of editors stating in said talk pages that they prefer to capitalize them, suggests to me that there are editors who systematically go around articles editing out the capitals. I'm not going to go around investigating it but it seems self-evident. Let's briefly mention it here in the MoS. BigSteve (talk) 12:26, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
Celestal bodies
See Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Capital_letters#Celestial_bodies. It says:
- The words sun, earth, moon and solar system are capitalized (as proper nouns) ....
Yea sure. That is the way to write a MOS/documentation/Help. -DePiep (talk) 01:07, 14 July 2012 (UTC)
- And there is a rule: "when 'the' is used (the earth), do not capitalise". This rule did not end up in the MOS, but could help a lot. -DePiep (talk) 01:58, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Capitalization of terms of art and doctrinal names
Are terms of art or doctrines capitalized under this manual? I've noticed that Tax deed sale and Sheriff's deed both capitalize the phrase "Tax Deed" and "Sheriff's Deed" (though inconsistently). That appears to be inconsistent with the preferences stated here but I figured I should first before changing them.
(Side note: if I'm posting this in the wrong place, I'd appreciate direction on where this ought to be posted instead.)
--Nuncio (talk) 00:39, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
List of WP:JOBTITLES articles
Why are so many job titles capitalized, e.g. as in Category:Lists of Masters of Cambridge University colleges and Category:Lists of presidents? Can we fix this? Compare Category:Lists of presidents of organizations, which is pretty clean (I fixed a few). Dicklyon (talk) 21:02, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
- Surely the reason is that—for newspapers, magazines, and books at least—rules for capitalization in headlines, article titles, category titles, chapter titles and section titles are usually quite different from (more flexible than) rules for capitalization in body copy? Surely it should be the same for Wikipedia too? Wikipedia is surely not going to collapse if most capitalization in titles is NOT "fixed"? Surely there are lots of more important things that need "fixing". Do you think that Manual of Style/Capital letters absolutely MUST be changed to Manual of style/capital letters? On capitalization, the Economist Style Guide online cites Emerson as writing that, “a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds”. ;-) LittleBen (talk) 13:02, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
- I think the MOS represents general consensus and practice about how articles should be styled, including titles. There's no particular urgency to fixing these things, but some editors, like me, do like to work on style. You need not if it doesn't interest you. But please do at least be aware that in WP, the style is explicitly that caps in titles follow the same rules as in sentences, unlike many of those other works that you mention, which often use "title case". We don't do that. Dicklyon (talk) 06:15, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
I started an RM at Talk:List of Presidents of the United States#Requested move, which is the one people like to point to as precedent for caps. We'll see where it goes... Dicklyon (talk) 06:26, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- It's annoying to a lot of readers to have to bumpety-bump through a bunch of initial-capped words every time there's a job title in the text. And there's the slippery-slope effect, too: He's now a Garbage Collector with the local city? He's the boss's Assistant? Tony (talk) 07:32, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- As mentioned here, there are a zillion such capitalized Presidents of the United States articles. The people who created all these articles surely would disagree with you about capitalization—and maybe compare such a proposed change with running a steamroller over Wikipedia to flatten it out, or switching from color TV to B/W. You should lump all the articles together in any proposal, to make it clear that this is not a "small change", rather than try to sneak one through and then quietly zap all the others "to bring them into line". LittleBen (talk) 07:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- LittleBen, I strongly support your views. I think its aesthetically better to have capitalized form of titles. I have no desire to entangle myself into a discussion about WP rules (in this case, MOS:CAPS), I just don't think it will look good without capitalization. That's one of the reasons why I reverted certain edits on this matter last year. The other reason is, indeed, consistency. If someone decide to work on this issue in the future, that user will need to fix literary countless of lists of presidents and other heads of states and governments on Wikipedia which have capitalization. From my point of view, its much better to leave it this way. --Sundostund (talk) 10:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- In many cases, like List of Presidents of Afghanistan, the person who created the article with the correct title might be pleased to see it move back there. Dicklyon (talk) 20:56, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- I would dispute your use of the word "many", which (I believe) is not supported by facts. In any case, it's better to go with what the majority of Wikipedia users prefer, rather than force them to eat what you prefer or think "right". People come to Wikipedia for authoritative, interesting, and well-written content, and good grammar, but certainly not to fight never-ending wars over small details of punctuation and capitalization. Wikipedia is not about absolute right and absolute wrong, it's about walking the middle road, being tolerant of other people's views—ignorant and ill-informed as you may think they are; it's about—as far as possible—treating everyone gently and with respect, and not about whacking as many people as possible with rules and reverts, and certainly not about harassing dedicated contributors and users into quitting Wikipedia. The Wikipedia ideal is a community of people who make the utmost effort to work together, rather than trying to force their "religion" down other people's throats all the time. LittleBen (talk) 01:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- Why are you using such combative language? It would be fantastic if we could discuss this in a civilized, detached manner, please. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 21:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- Have you read this or this? LittleBen (talk) 03:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- I see more unnecessarily combative language from you in both discussions. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 04:30, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Erik, about the end of June, LittleBen suddenly took an interest in Wikipedia space and started editing style and naming policies and guidelines. He got really bent out of shape when I didn't let him add his how-to link into the titling criteria section; read about it [in WT:AT archive 37]. Since then, he's been wikihounding me, objecting to what I do routinely, canvassing others to help object, etc. It will blow over, I expect. We'll probably need to restart some RMs when the RM bot is fixed, and get some more neutral eyes on things. Dicklyon (talk) 05:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- The issue of referring to MoS (regional) for authoritative guidance on use of foreign terms and foreign names in articles and article titles is surely obvious to anyone. Article titles are supposed to be in English, but how to do it obviously requires a regional MOS. Despite this, Dicklyon not only refuses to allow any link from WP:Article titles to MoS regional, but also seeks to have a user who repeatedly tried to romanize Vietnamese article titles to English banned. That's not merely inconsistent, but also abusive. He has also posted threatening messages on my talk page. LittleBen (talk) 08:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- As far as I can recall, I have not commented on the issue of links to MoS regional from WP:AT; certainly I have not "refused to allow", as I have no power to disallow such a thing; and I don't see why it would bother me. Yes, such a link may have been caught up in a revert; I don't recall exactly who did what when you were warring there. As for Kauffner's sockpuppet investigation, yes, it does seem that some kind of a ban would be right to seek next. And I can't see what you would consider threatening in my post to your talk page. So, again, what's with the tantrum? Dicklyon (talk) 14:55, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Were his threatening messages on your talk page somehow expunged? What happened to them? ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:44, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- The issue of referring to MoS (regional) for authoritative guidance on use of foreign terms and foreign names in articles and article titles is surely obvious to anyone. Article titles are supposed to be in English, but how to do it obviously requires a regional MOS. Despite this, Dicklyon not only refuses to allow any link from WP:Article titles to MoS regional, but also seeks to have a user who repeatedly tried to romanize Vietnamese article titles to English banned. That's not merely inconsistent, but also abusive. He has also posted threatening messages on my talk page. LittleBen (talk) 08:43, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Erik, about the end of June, LittleBen suddenly took an interest in Wikipedia space and started editing style and naming policies and guidelines. He got really bent out of shape when I didn't let him add his how-to link into the titling criteria section; read about it [in WT:AT archive 37]. Since then, he's been wikihounding me, objecting to what I do routinely, canvassing others to help object, etc. It will blow over, I expect. We'll probably need to restart some RMs when the RM bot is fixed, and get some more neutral eyes on things. Dicklyon (talk) 05:45, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- I see more unnecessarily combative language from you in both discussions. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 04:30, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Have you read this or this? LittleBen (talk) 03:39, 27 July 2012 (UTC)
- Why are you using such combative language? It would be fantastic if we could discuss this in a civilized, detached manner, please. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 21:47, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
- I would dispute your use of the word "many", which (I believe) is not supported by facts. In any case, it's better to go with what the majority of Wikipedia users prefer, rather than force them to eat what you prefer or think "right". People come to Wikipedia for authoritative, interesting, and well-written content, and good grammar, but certainly not to fight never-ending wars over small details of punctuation and capitalization. Wikipedia is not about absolute right and absolute wrong, it's about walking the middle road, being tolerant of other people's views—ignorant and ill-informed as you may think they are; it's about—as far as possible—treating everyone gently and with respect, and not about whacking as many people as possible with rules and reverts, and certainly not about harassing dedicated contributors and users into quitting Wikipedia. The Wikipedia ideal is a community of people who make the utmost effort to work together, rather than trying to force their "religion" down other people's throats all the time. LittleBen (talk) 01:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
- In many cases, like List of Presidents of Afghanistan, the person who created the article with the correct title might be pleased to see it move back there. Dicklyon (talk) 20:56, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- LittleBen, I strongly support your views. I think its aesthetically better to have capitalized form of titles. I have no desire to entangle myself into a discussion about WP rules (in this case, MOS:CAPS), I just don't think it will look good without capitalization. That's one of the reasons why I reverted certain edits on this matter last year. The other reason is, indeed, consistency. If someone decide to work on this issue in the future, that user will need to fix literary countless of lists of presidents and other heads of states and governments on Wikipedia which have capitalization. From my point of view, its much better to leave it this way. --Sundostund (talk) 10:29, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
- As mentioned here, there are a zillion such capitalized Presidents of the United States articles. The people who created all these articles surely would disagree with you about capitalization—and maybe compare such a proposed change with running a steamroller over Wikipedia to flatten it out, or switching from color TV to B/W. You should lump all the articles together in any proposal, to make it clear that this is not a "small change", rather than try to sneak one through and then quietly zap all the others "to bring them into line". LittleBen (talk) 07:52, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
Over
hello,
is Bridge over Troubled Water (song) really correct? You state that words consisting of four or less letters should be in lower case, but several reliable sources disagree with this claim. Regards.--GoPTCN 20:31, 24 July 2012 (UTC)
- Different sources use different length thresholds to decide which preposition to capitalize. Myself, I prefer to capitalize those with several syllables, as that feels to me less arbitrary than picking a number of letters; but that's not Wikipedia's style. A. di M. (talk) 07:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
A question on sentence and Title case
Perhaps this has been asked before. Is it ok to use Title case for the names of books, magazines etc and the sentence case for the news headings in the reference section of an article? Regards.--Dwaipayan (talk) 05:48, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, as long as the article isn't already using a consistent referencing style that uses title case for news headings. If news headings are already being consistently title cased, you should continue that. If they are already being sentence cased consistently, you should continue that. If there aren't any examples to follow in the article, or if they are inconsistent, you can make them consistent in either mode. See Wikipedia:CITE#Citation style for the parallel guidance for citations. -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- It is quite acceptable (everywhere, as long as a house-style doesn't say not to) To Downcase Lumpy NYT Titles Et Al. In A Ref List. This is quite different from, say, changing BrEng spelling into AmEng spelling in a heading or quote, which is of course verboten, ofr a number of good reasons. But you don't have to downcase the original in a ref list. Tony (talk) 04:03, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Composition Titles
Hello. I'm new to Wikipedia, which means that I am not well-versed in the subtleties of the various Manuals of Style. I noticed that both the Manual of Style subsection here, and the Manual of Style for calital letters dealing with composition titles here only have rules for English titles. However, there are numerous composition titles that were either first presented by the creator in another language or that are better known in another language. Especially in the latter case, as per Wikipedia's article naming guidelines, it might be useful to reference the capitalisation rules for foreign works on the style guide pages for articles and composition titles. Since the rules for other languages can be written concisely, unless this is stated elsewhere or against policy, they should be briefly stated here:
- For German titles, capitalise the first word and all nouns
- For French, Italian, Spanish and Portuguese titles, capitalise only the first word and all proper names.
The guides are very dense, so it is likely that there is a good reason the rules are not stated in the style guides in which I thought to look. However, they are important rules to follow as I've noticed a few discrepancies with the titles of musical compositions. Regards, Paul.m.kirschner (talk) 20:46, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- It's actually a bit more complicated than that, as you can see by looking at, for instance, Wikipedia:Manual of Style/France & French-related#Works of art. In that case, people working on different topics—to wit, literature and music—have adopted different capitalization conventions for titles, and both have precedent in contemporary French practice. Deor (talk) 21:18, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello, Deor. Thank you for your response, and I do know that the rules I gave were quick simplifications. For example in German, the pronoun "Sie" is capitalized, while all others are not. In addition, nominalized adjectives are generally capitalized, while most others are not. Some of the arcane rules, especially with the Romance languages, can be very confusing. I should have been more clear that my comments pertained to the titles of musical compositions. I see that a reference to the source of rules is made on the page you provided, but is that really pragmatic? For people new to Wikipedia it might be difficult to find, but I do understand the organisational reasons behind the decision. Perhaps on this page there could be a level four subheading "Languages other than English", where there would be internal links to the rules of capitalization in different language. Since this could get bulky as there are thousands of languages, there could be categories (e.g. "Romantic Languages") with, if need be, a further set of links. Thanks, Paul.m.kirschner (talk) 22:33, 3 August 2012 (UTC)
- I am wondering if this would be useful for German works. I tend to think not. The MOS page linked above has ". . . generally, retain the style of the original". I would normally expect someone mentioning a German work to have access to that work and just copy the actual title. I only see problems occurring if an individual English source applies different formatting rules, e.g. because of the house style of the English publisher concerned, but I don't see how a simplified Wikipedia version of the foreign rules would be helpful. I see the problem with French, if French publishers use different standards. Does this lack of consistency apply to any other languages? With German, I see a problem of editors being encouraged to deviate from the actual standard because of simplifications in the Wikipedia rules. On the other hand, I see the advantage of requiring the original capitalization to be used, in order to avoid lack of consistency caused by copying from English publishers with different house styles. There is an occasional problem with different editions of a book using different capitalization, but I don't think this proposal would help much. --Boson (talk) 12:48, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello Boson, and thanks for your comments. It is usually best to retain the style of the original, but sometimes it is very hard to determine the original title as first presented by the composer. Discrepancies can be found among different editions, and that can be confusing. For example, a work originally published in Leipzig might be reproduced by an American publishing house who will actually change the original title. Another common practice among publishers is to capitalize all the letters of a publication. Old editions of Schirmer, Peters, Novello, and Breitkopf und Härtel are notorious for this. When the original title of the work cannot be found, it is usually safest to rely on the LoC Authorities Catalog. My proposal really isn't one of adding simplified rules, but actually making the actual rules easier to find on the MoS pages. Thanks, Paul.m.kirschner (talk) 16:11, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
- Non-English titles should simply be in sentence case. Title case only applies for titles in English. (For some titles, determining the language will be difficult, but the context of, say, an album, the language of a complete work, or an artist's other work should offer help.)
- A thorny problem I see with German titles is if they should use the new (post-1996) spelling rules, or not. For older works, this would strike me as questionable, and for newer works, it should be avoided, as well, if the artist intentionally decided to retain pre-1996 spelling, but how to determine if it was intentional or not will likely be impossible in most cases and is bound to make this issue a big headache. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 20:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't actually mean the titles of the pages but rather when titles appear in other places, such as work lists. Paul.m.kirschner (talk) 12:17, 6 September 2012 (UTC)
Titles of people (2)
See also #Titles of people.
The section has improved since I last looked at it but some strange wording has drifted in. The title of king etc is not a "job title" or an "office [of state]" or a "position". Calling it such distorts several of the sentence:
- "Offices, positions, and job titles" if king and emperor are to be listed then the word "job" should be removed from the sentence.
- "When a very high ranking office ..." Queen title is not an office. So Betty's title is to be used as an example the the words "very high ranking office" needs to be replaced with the word "title".
- "When the correct formal name of an office" The French kingship was not a office of state.
-- PBS (talk) 14:28, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
- I detect no significant change to the wording since your last edit there in January. Dicklyon (talk) 14:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Offices, positions and job titles are subcategories of titles; kings are nonetheless titles and should therefore be capitalised. Your suggestions while valid, are very specific and focus more on nuance of diction than pragmatic policy. Feel free to perhaps modify the language accordingly, if you think you could make things more clear. Best, Paul.m.kirschner (talk) 16:30, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Royal Family
Part of a discussion at Talk:Elizabeth II#Capitalisation and Rhodesia focuses on the capitalisation of the proper name "Royal Family" in the article. Right now, the article does not capitalise the proper name. I wonder if some who are familiar with the matter of capitalising proper names could offer their input where the debate is taking place. Cheers. --Ħ MIESIANIACAL 22:08, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Important new RFC at WT:TITLE
Editors may be interested in a new RFC that has just started at WT:TITLE (not to be confused with an earlier RFC, which it appears to make redundant):
This RFC affects the standing of WP:RM as the established central resource for dealing with controversial moves; many of those involve MOS provisions, so perhaps the standing of MOS is affected as well.
NoeticaTea? 10:20, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Capitalization of species names
This sentence caught my eye: "As of March 2012, wikiprojects for some groups of organisms are in the process of converting to sentence case where title case was previously used."
In 2003 a guideline to title all animal articles in all caps was added, and then amended to say bird articles. It turns out that the name of a species capitalizes the first letter only, other than fish and birds. Bird names have the most complicated rules. I would caution against changing "Grizzly Bear" to "grizzly bear" in all cases, because if you are talking about the name of the species, the correct spelling is "Grizzly bear". If you are talking about members of that species, the correct spelling is "grizzly bear". I hope this is about as clear as mud. In the case of birds and fish, ornithologists and ichthyologists use all caps (mostly) when they are talking to themselves - in ornithological articles (Snowy Owl), or ichthyology articles (Rainbow Trout), while normal rules of capitalization use sentence case (rainbow trout). I would caution editors from making changes just for the sake of making changes, especially if it breaks the meaningful use of capitalization, and especially about changing capitalization in bird and fish articles, as different rules apply. Apteva (talk) 21:50, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
- OTOH, I would caution against claims of caps being correct. And so would Merriam-Webster.[1]. And before you claim that isn't talking about the species (even though it is), there's also this. Gnomish edits to improve the style and usage of the general encyclopedia are not "for the sake of making changes", especially if it fixes the Improper Use of Capitalization. -- JHunterJ (talk)
Beatles RfC
You are invited to participate in an RfC at Wikipedia talk:Requests for mediation/The Beatles on the issue of capitalising the definite article when mentioning that band's name in running prose. This long-standing dispute is the subject of an open mediation case and we are requesting your help with determining the current community consensus. Thank you for your time. For the mediators. ~ GabeMc (talk|contribs) 03:49, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
Military terms: Marines
When referring to individuals who are a member of a branch of service, such as the Marines (ie. members of the United States Marine Corp), should they be referred to as marines or Marines? Apteva (talk) 06:33, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
I need help when it comes to capitalizing the word Marine. There is a mini edit-war (but one that is civil and in good faith) going on for the article 1983 Beirut barracks bombing regarding the question of whether or not to capitalize the word "Marine" when referring to members of the U.S. Marine Corps. This article notes that the USMC itself wants the word capitalized, and more and more U.S. print policies (AP, New York Times, etc) are following that policy. However, when I reverted an edit that had changed the word to lower case, PaulinSaudi reverted my revert (so that the article now again shows "marines," not "Marines") with this comment:
- 00:51, 23 September 2012 PaulinSaudi(talk | contribs) . . (48,164 bytes) (0) . . (Undid :revision 514045809 by NearTheZoo. Oddly the Wiki Manual of Style is not in agreement :with the USMC) (undo).
I have searched the wikipedia Manula of Style (section on CAPS and section on Military Terms) but have not found the relevant portion. So-- two questions: (1) where in the Wiki MOS is this issue presented? (2) If PaulinSaudi is correct and the Wiki MOS indicates that the word should NOT be capitalized, how can I make the recommendation that it be changed? Thanks! NearTheZoo (talk) 11:44, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- PS to my note on "Marines": After a very gracious exchange with PaulinSaudi, I have learned that the current Wiki MOS does not strictly prohibit capitalization of "Marine/s," but instead only does not establish capitalization as required. I would like to recommend that the "Military Terms" section in the MOS be changed to establish Wiki style consistent with the rules of style now used by AP, NYT, Chicago Tribune, and others--to capitalize "Marine." Here is the NYT explanation for their 2009 e to begin capitalizing "Marines." Their editors decided that since Marine is a word for a member of a larger organization that is normally capitalized that (like Democrat, Catholic, or Rotarian) the word should be capitalized when referring to individuals within that organization, as well. The NYT change would also apply to "Coastguardsman" (and I assume to "Guardian," the new term that is sometimes used for a member of the USCG), but not for "soldier" or "sailor," since these terms are not directly linked to the capitalized title of the larger organization. For many Marines, this is a matter of pride (a fact also pointed out in the NYT article). I recommend this issue be discussed and (of course) I am on the side of clarifying our MOS to reflect the fact that "Marine" should be capitalized. Thanks! NearTheZoo (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
- The relevant section is "Thus, the American army, but the United States Army. Unofficial but well-known names should also be capitalized (the Green Berets, the Guard)." It can be tweaked to make it more clear (the distinction between "American army" and "U.S. Army" is about as clear as mud), but I would say that Marine would be just as capitalized as Army or Coast Guard. Apteva (talk) 05:58, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- The relevant section speaks about the corps, not members. "It was decided that the Marines should be participating the operation, so 20 marines were sent", but not It was decided that the Marines should be participating the operation, so 20 Marines were sent", and not "It was decided that the marines should be participating the operation, so 20 marines were sent". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 10:56, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- I can see what they are doing in the article. Where marines appears it is not capitalized just as soldiers would not be capitalized, but where Marine appears it is capitalized as it refers to the branch of service. "220 marines, 18 sailors and three soldiers" is not capitalized, but "Marine landing force" is. Apteva (talk) 06:09, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Probably the best way to resolve this is to open an RfC and see if anyone has any opinions on using 220 Marines, 18 sailors, one Green Beret and three soldiers instead of 220 marines, 18 sailors, one green beret and three soldiers. Apteva (talk) 06:33, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- The relevant section is "Thus, the American army, but the United States Army. Unofficial but well-known names should also be capitalized (the Green Berets, the Guard)." It can be tweaked to make it more clear (the distinction between "American army" and "U.S. Army" is about as clear as mud), but I would say that Marine would be just as capitalized as Army or Coast Guard. Apteva (talk) 05:58, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
- Lowercase: I don't see any ambiguity here – the words "marine", "pilot" (just as well as "police officer") should be spelled in lowercase. The New York Times' explanation of their change is pretty convincing in that there is no good reason for capitalization. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 10:50, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- Capitalization:I am pretty confused by the last comment by Dmitrij D. Carkoff. He says the NY Times article is "convincing," but then he writes that he is convinced there is no good reason for capitalization. Perhaps he meant that the NY Times explanation so "so unconvincing" that it actually convinced him to believe there is "no good reason for capitalization." If that's what he meant, I understand, but just don't agree -- since I see their editor's rationale as convincing: that "Marine" is capitalized when it refers to an individual in the U.S. Marine Corps, just as words like Rotarian, Catholic, or Democrat are capitalized, as members of an organization that would be capitalized. In any event, here is the direct quote from the article:
- "We will now capitalize Marine and Marines when referring to individual members of the United States Marine Corps. Under the previous rule, we capitalized references to the service as a whole, but lowercased “marine” in referring to individuals. We used to say, “Three marines were wounded in the fighting.” Now we’ll say, “Three Marines were wounded in the fighting.” (We’ll make a similar change to capitalize “Coast Guardsman,” though that comes up less frequently.)" NearTheZoo (talk) 12:16, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- The word "marine" is possibly only ever used to mean "member of the US Marine corp". Mariner is a general term for sailor, and sailor could be either someone who sails a sailboat or a member of a navy. Many countries have navies, so when Navy is capitalized it refers to one countries navy, which normally would be clear by context or identified. I am not sure that any other country has so many armed forces that they have grouped them into separate forces as the US, although there are certainly countries with a larger army. The US Constitution only allows two branches, Army and Navy, and specifically prohibits a standing army. Apteva (talk) 16:22, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- The current MOS uses "Formal names of military units, including armies". By implication, a member of that formal name would also be capitalized. The Rockettes, A Rockette. No one would use a rockette.[2] This is just a matter of following what sources use, and has nothing to do with military terms, and the entire "Military terms" section can, be deleted, as it adds nothing to the MOS (it has four sections, the first says "Military ranks follow the same capitalization guidelines", the second says proper nouns are capitalized, as does the third and fourth). In the case of marines vs. Marines, after 2009 there were fewer sources that used "marine". Consistency within an article should be maintained, though, and where sources conflict, the most likely choice is used. I say delete the section "Military terms". Apteva (talk) 16:50, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- @Apteva: I actually don't see how the rules for the units make implications about members of units. Per this logic the soldiers of 13th Brigade should be capitalized as Soldiers, which is obviously not the case.
- @NearTheZoo: the main rationale NYTimes cites is a preference of consistency in US news media over consistency in prose. While such choice may somehow appear as making sense in US news media (though I don't think it indeed makes sense), it is obviously wrong for international non-profit collaboration effort. I strongly prefer the consistency in text, which is completely incompatible with capitalization scheme "220 Marines, 18 sailors, one Green Beret and three soldiers". — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 18:26, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, Czarkoff! One more disagreement: the primary reason for the NY Times change (at least, according to that paper's own explanation) is NOT consistency with other news media, although the editors do admit that the change (capitalizing Marine or Marines) will "also" bring that paper into agreement with other manuals of style, such as that used by the Associated Press (and AP articles are used by papers in many parts of the world). The main reason is consistency in terms of capitalizing members of organizations who take their names from those organizations, when the organization itself is capitalized. The NY Times editors give examples such as Catholics, Rotarians, and Democrats. Unlike soldiers and sailors, Marines take their name from the organization: the U.S. Marine Corps. That's why the NY Times rules show consistency between Marines and Coast Guardsmen on the one hand (capitalizing both), and consistency through non-capitalization when dealing with occupations that do not take their names from organizations, such as soldiers, sailors, pilots, voters, etc. Thanks! NearTheZoo (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- One PS to Czarkoff -- re your response to the comment by Apteva. Maybe you're completely separating your response to Apteva from your understanding of the NY Times "rule" -- but in terms of the NY Times rule, soldiers in the 13th Brigade would be referred to as soldiers (not capitalized), but on the other hand, if the members of the 13th Brigade were known as "13th Brigaders," then "Brigaders" should be capitalized. Whether or not you like or agree with the NY Times rationale, it is based on a very consistent approach! Thanks again! NearTheZoo (talk) 19:12, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- Though the "taking names from organizations" approach may seem logical, it is merely a workaround for disambiguation between different meanings of the word, which is perfectly valid in context of newspaper (it saves lines), but it isn't applicable here, as we have wikilinks for this level of disambiguation. Anyway, this luckily didn't become a language norm and we are not bound by it, so the ugliness of mixed case in the enumeration of similar objects may be avoid. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 19:48, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- My point was just that - that "soldiers of 13th Brigade" if referred to as "soldiers" would be lower case, and as Brigadiers would be capitalized. The rule though, is not to look in the guideline to see if "soldiers of 13th Brigade" appears, and possibly has a separate rule than say "soldiers of 14th Brigade", but to look in the sources that were used to create the article to see if Brigadiers are capitalized, or if they are called Brigadiers, Brigaders, Brigades, Soldiers, soldiers or who knows what. The Military terms section adds nothing to the MOS and can be deleted. If someone is concerned with "the ugliness of mixed case in the enumeration of similar objects", then the sentence can be re-written as "242 Americans, including 220 Marines and one Green Beret." The words "workaround for disambiguation between different meanings of the word" confuse me, because when writing an article about the iPhone simply capitalizing Apple makes it clear that we are talking about the company, not a fruit. Besides, it would only be wikilinked at its first occurrence, and if Rockette appeared one or a hundred times in an article it would always be capitalized because The Rockettes is a proper name. It is not good writing to use ambiguous language and expect that a wikilink will make it understandable. Apteva (talk) 20:15, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- Though the "taking names from organizations" approach may seem logical, it is merely a workaround for disambiguation between different meanings of the word, which is perfectly valid in context of newspaper (it saves lines), but it isn't applicable here, as we have wikilinks for this level of disambiguation. Anyway, this luckily didn't become a language norm and we are not bound by it, so the ugliness of mixed case in the enumeration of similar objects may be avoid. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk•track) 19:48, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- One PS to Czarkoff -- re your response to the comment by Apteva. Maybe you're completely separating your response to Apteva from your understanding of the NY Times "rule" -- but in terms of the NY Times rule, soldiers in the 13th Brigade would be referred to as soldiers (not capitalized), but on the other hand, if the members of the 13th Brigade were known as "13th Brigaders," then "Brigaders" should be capitalized. Whether or not you like or agree with the NY Times rationale, it is based on a very consistent approach! Thanks again! NearTheZoo (talk) 19:12, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hi, Czarkoff! One more disagreement: the primary reason for the NY Times change (at least, according to that paper's own explanation) is NOT consistency with other news media, although the editors do admit that the change (capitalizing Marine or Marines) will "also" bring that paper into agreement with other manuals of style, such as that used by the Associated Press (and AP articles are used by papers in many parts of the world). The main reason is consistency in terms of capitalizing members of organizations who take their names from those organizations, when the organization itself is capitalized. The NY Times editors give examples such as Catholics, Rotarians, and Democrats. Unlike soldiers and sailors, Marines take their name from the organization: the U.S. Marine Corps. That's why the NY Times rules show consistency between Marines and Coast Guardsmen on the one hand (capitalizing both), and consistency through non-capitalization when dealing with occupations that do not take their names from organizations, such as soldiers, sailors, pilots, voters, etc. Thanks! NearTheZoo (talk) 18:38, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
Neither the force nor the members are capitalized unless they refer to a specific organization. So, capitalization like He may tell that to the marines, but the sailors will not believe him or A commission in the marines has been in use since at least 1800. The US Marines and the Royal Marines are capitalized as proper names, but a marine regiment or the marine forces are not. A marine is a soldier in the marines. You may want to capitalize it as a specific title (Marine = member of the US Marines, not just any old marine), but remember that the US armed forces like to capitalize Every Noun to show how Important It Is. It looks like they never made it out of High School, and reinforces the 'dumb grunt' (or is that 'dumb Grunt'?) stereotype. — kwami (talk) 20:37, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- That supposition can not be decided here. There are clearly many editors who prefer to capitalize "Marine" everywhere it appears. I think the clear answer to this RfC is to remove "Military terms" from the MOS. The use of "marine regiment" would appear in the New York times prior to 2009 because of their style guide, but would not appear in the AP story the article was based on, nor in most other publications, which would instead use "Marine regiments consist of Marines who are in the U.S. Marine Corp". The MOS already says all it needs to say - that proper nouns are capitalized, and capital letters are not used for emphasis. In editing a specific article editors need to work out with other editors what the correct capitalization should be, and an RfC there can help if no consensus can be developed. The answer is likely to be sailor is lower case, soldier is lower case, Green Beret is upper case, as is al-Qa'idian, if there was such a term. Capitalizing Marine is requested to give them respect, but respect has nothing to do with the real reason that it is capitalized, just as Democrat or Republican are capitalized - not to show them respect, but because Democratic Party and Republican Party are proper nouns. Apteva (talk) 21:12, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is an obvious – even open-and-shut – case, per existing MOS rules. We must use lower case, except when the title is used with a name, is itself a proper name, or is an acronym. The title is actually generic when not used that way. There are US and foreign merchant marines, and military marines in other countries as well as the US, who are referred to generically and collectively as "marines", just as there are air forces and air force lieutenants within them, by contrast with the U.S. Air Force and a U.S. Air Force Lieutenant (but not a U.S. Air Force Pilot which isn't a real title, but a description of partial job duties). It has to be modified by a preceding name, e.g. U.S. Marine, or a following name, e.g. Marine Johnson (or in certain formal/tabular contexts Johnson, Marine but not in running text, as in "said Johnson, Marine since 1991"). In the first case, U.S. Marine is an abbreviation of a U.S. Marine Corps serviceman; in the later case, it would be capitalized anyway as a job title, as in "said FooBar corporation Vice-president Gutierrez", per WP:MOSCAPS. That Johnson's real official title is actually "PFC" is irrelevant; an abbreviated stand-in is always capitalized when used with a name: "Gutierrez's new title is FooBar V.-president", and Vice-pres. Gutierrez and even Veep Gutierrez, plus of course VP Gutierrez. "Marine Johnson" used unbroken as Title Name is such an abbreviation, in this case of U.S. Marine Johnson, itself an abbreviation of U.S. Marine Corp PFC Johnson, itself an abbreviation, in turn, of United States Marine Corp Private First Class Emil Xander Johnson, Jr, [USMC serial number here]). Per MOS, we don't capitalize when the title and name are separated, as in Gutierrez, the new vice-president or "vice-president of the company since July, Gutierrez" (unless the title is given as an acronym or itself is/contains a proper noun: (Gutierrez is the VP, "Gutierrez also served as a New Mexico State Court judge"), thus Johnson the marine, "a marine since 1991, Johnson...". NB: We also do not capitalize things that are not titles, or abbreviations thereof, when used with names, e.g. Divisional Sub-boss Gutierrez, or State-level Judge Gutierrez (which should be state-level judge Gutierrez not state-level Judge Gutierrez here, as judge in this case is part of a longer phrase that is a writer's replacement for, not abbreviation of, the title, as would be judiciary politician Gutierrez, just like pilot Campbell for USAF LT Campbell).
It's really cut and dry, and this dispute is simply another case of the WP:Specialist style fallacy, one in which certain editors are emotionally but fallaciously invested in the idea that Marine in references to the U.S. Marine Corp must always be capitalized as a matter of pride. We don't all have the right to shout Semper Fi!, however. [And thanks for your service; I come from a military family.] PS: Note also that the proper spelling is "vice-president" (vice- is a prefix, not a word in this context); Vice President of the United States is a US political term of art (and pride). Many US-based companies have become confused (not being usually populated with grammarians) and aped this style, but it's an incorrect usage when it doesn't refer to the VPotUS. Wikipedia should always spell the corporate job title hyphenated regardless of the company's internal usage, just as we always spell president correctly, even if a company insists that they have a "Prezident". PPS: Bonus points for anyone who understands why I used quotation marks in "actually 'PFC'" instead of using
actually ''PFC''
.— SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 09:58, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- That advice fails to recognize that we do capitalize Rotarian, Democrat, Republican, so why not Marine? It is in fact common practice to capitalize Green Beret and Marine, not for someone who is a merchant marine, but someone who is a U.S. Marine, and therefore our MOS should reflect that fact. If other countries have a marine corp and choose to capitalize their marines, we would certainly expect to follow suit. But if they do not, like merchant marine, then lower case would be more suitable. I would suggest looking at sources and finding out what they use. Apteva (talk) 15:53, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- As an international encyclopedia, we shouldn't be using "Marines" as an abbreviation for a particular country's marine corps. But I agree that as such an abbreviation I would expect it to be capitalized. — kwami (talk) 18:03, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- To clarify the point about "if other countries have a marine corps...", I think it's worth confirming that there are, indeed, many marine corps outside the US. Many have other titles, and so are not relevant here, but, by my count there's at least sixteen other "Marine Corps" than the American version. Judging from their website the Royal Marines do tend to capitalise (although not uniformly), but, in the vast majority of cases they prefer the more specific term "Royal Marine" anyway, which I assume we all agree would be capitalised. My recommendation would be to use "U.S. Marine" when you mean a member of the U.S. Marine Corps, rather than the shorter, and more generic term. The term "marine", to my mind, falls into the same category as "soldier" or "sailor", since it's a generic term used by many different countries and organisations. This obviously differ from the NYT's opinion, but then they're a national newspaper, not an international encyclopaedia. Anaxial (talk) 18:52, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
I prefer the NYT/AP/whatever style of capitalization according to the style the organization uses when referring to the organization or its members. There are some potential ambiguities solved by this approach. A marine assault may be something completely different from a Marine assault. I don't think this capitalization rule should apply, however, in a specific case: when referring to an armed force as an army or navy in a generic way, even if the only possible referent is one country's army or navy. For example: He enlisted in the U.S. Army but The army trudged across the desert. and The Cypriot Navy conducted drills but the navy assaulted positions in the south. --Batard0 (talk) 13:41, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
Hyphenated titles
At "Composition titles", the MOSCAPS says in part:
- In the English titles of compositions (books and other print works, songs and other audio works, films and other visual media works, paintings and other artworks, etc.), every word is given an initial capital except for certain less important words...
- In hyphenated terms, capitalize each part according to the applicable rule (generally, that which follows a hyphen is not capitalized unless it is a proper name).
I take "capitalize each part" to be saying that a title like The Tell-Tale Heart should have three capital T's, the same as if it would if it was spelled The Tell Tale Heart, rather than two as in The Tell-tale Heart, because "Tale" is treated as a separate "part" and is not one of the "less important words". This makes sense and I'm confident that it describes common practice today for hyphenated titles in English. However, what I don't understand is what the parenthetical "generally" means. All I can think is that it refers to capitalization outside of titles — the way we write Tell-tale signs of trouble appeared. rather than Tell-Tale signs of trouble appeared.. But if that is it, then it doesn't belong in this section.
Would someone please either clarify what this parenthetical note is about, or else delete it? In either case, examples would be welcome. --142.205.241.254 (talk) 22:50, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- It doesn't make sense to me as it is written. However, the reference to proper names makes me think it should read "The part following a prefix (e.g.re, pre, or anti) is not capitalized unless it is proper noun or a proper adjective)", which is the rule given by Chicago. Examples (from CMS): "Self-Sustaining Reactions" (because "self" is not a prefix) and "Non-Christian Religions (because Christian is a proper adjective) but "Anti-intellectual Pursuits" and "Strategies for Re-establishment (becaue anti and re are prefixes). --Boson (talk) 23:27, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- (Original poster at a different IP address) Okay, nobody's produced a way that it makes sense. My guess is that the words escaped from an unrelated context, like capitalization of Wikipedia article titles: if those were WP articles they'd be "downstyled" as "Self-sustaining reactions", "Anti-intellectual pursuits", and "Non-Christ ian religions". Here we're talking about titles of compositions, which follow a traditional "upstyle" even in WP. I see that the articles The Tell-Tale Heart, The In-Laws (1979 film), and The Out-of-Towners (1970 film) all capitalize "each part according to the applicable rule". I'm going to delete the parenthetical part. --50.100.189.5 (talk) 05:17, 8 November 2012 (UTC)
Capitalization of original titles
Again on the subject of "compositions of titles", the fact that rules for titles are being given implies that WP style takes precedence over respecting the capitalization of titles as used in the original work. For example, if the original title was .....one of our aircraft is missing or Butterflies are Free, in WP they are to appear as ......One of Our Aircraft Is Missing (although in fact that title seems to have lost its leading ellipsis as well) and as Butterflies Are Free (as here).
This policy makes sense because it produces a consistent style through a list of titles and because it's the sort of thing that other style guides call for as well. But it is still a modification of original text, so I think the MOSCAPS should explicitly point this out, in the same way that the main MOS explicitly covers what are "allowable typographical changes" in quotations.
P.S. The CAPTCHA that I had to pass to post the links in this section was "argueoften". Is that an imperative or a description of me? :–) --142.205.241.254 (talk) 23:06, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Stage names of South Korean K-pop musical groups/bands/musicians
From what I've just read, "Wikipedia relies on sources to determine what is a proper name; words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in sources are treated as proper names and capitalized in Wikipedia." Therefore, since the names of K-pop musical groups/bands/musicians are usually capitalized, I am requesting an addition of K-Pop bands to be included in the list of exceptions to the "unnecessary capitalization" rule.
- Example 1: Wikipedia lists the South Korean K-pop group Big Bang with small letters according to the no "unnecessary capitalization" rule. But the band's stage name is "BIGBANG" and many other respectable sources including Rolling Stone, The Guardian, Billboard, Metro News, Vancouver Observer, etc , have used "BIGBANG" instead of "Big Bang"
- Example 2: Wikipedia lists the South Korean K-pop group Exo with small letters according to the no "unnecessary capitalization" rule. But the band's stage name is "EXO" and many other respectable sources including The New Yorker, Billboard, Grantland, etc, have used "EXO" instead of "Exo"
- Example 3: Wikipedia lists the South Korean K-pop musician Psy with small letters according to the no "unnecessary capitalization" rule. But the band's stage name is "PSY" and many other respectable sources including Time Magazine, The Washington Post, The New York Times, ABC News, and The United Nations, etc, have used "PSY" instead of "Psy"
- Example 4: Wikipedia lists the South Korean K-pop group Shinee with small letters according to the no "unnecessary capitalization" rule. But the band's stage name is "SHINee" and many other respectable sources including The New Yorker, The Associated Press, ITN News, The New York Times, etc, have used "SHINee" instead of "Shinee"
Of course, Wikipedia's rules can be overridden as per WP:IGNORE, but Im just wondering if it would be a good idea to explicitly add an exception and allow the article names of South Korean K-pop bands and musicians to be capitalized according to their stage name since its more frequently used in proper English? -A1candidate (talk) 15:57, 3 November 2012 (UTC)
UPDATE: Since nobody has said anything yet, Im thinking of adding the following new section :
- Stage names
Stage names of musicial groups and K-pop bands in particular are capitalized in accordance with standard usage.
- Incorrect: Big Bang
- Correct: BIGBANG
- Incorrect: Exo
- Correct: EXO
- Incorrect: Shinee
- Correct: SHINee
- Incorrect: Will I am
- Correct: will.i.am
If anyone has any suggestions/feedback/objections, please let me know! -A1candidate (talk) 18:04, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
Well, since its almost a month and nobody has voiced any objections/suggestions, I've made the following edit, so please discuss it here if you any feedback -A1candidate (talk) 15:31, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- So I just reverted your change; thanks for being bold. As far as I can tell, this goes against several other MOS guidelines. I'm not necessarily opposed to your change, but I think it does at least deserve more attention. Personally, I think "standard usage" is a good standard, but hard to define. I rather like "regular and established use in reliable third party sources". -- Irn (talk) 16:36, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- I understand that "regular and established third party sources" would be more precise than simply "standard usage", but I personally think WP:MOSTM isn't a well written guideline that reflects what is normally used in most sources. For example the article "will.i.am", seems to ignore Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Trademarks#Trademarks_that_begin_with_a_lowercase_letter, not to mention the fact that a stage name (which is also a Pseudonym and therefore sort of like a "second name") shouldnt be classified as a trademark -A1candidate (talk) 17:09, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, I got the "regular and established" bit from WP:Manual_of_Style/Proper_names#Personal_names, which applies to will.i.am (in terms of the non-capitalization of the 'w', anyway). There was a lot of discussion (and a lot of resistance) that went into carving out that exception. Now, the proposal is to expand that exception to include not just individuals but also bands and not just initial lower-case but also all-caps and other orthographic irregularities. Considering the discussions when making the lower-case exception, it seemed to me that such a change should have more discussion. (And that we should then make the appropriate change to WP:MOSMUSIC and WP:ALLCAPS.) -- Irn (talk) 18:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- I understand that "regular and established third party sources" would be more precise than simply "standard usage", but I personally think WP:MOSTM isn't a well written guideline that reflects what is normally used in most sources. For example the article "will.i.am", seems to ignore Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Trademarks#Trademarks_that_begin_with_a_lowercase_letter, not to mention the fact that a stage name (which is also a Pseudonym and therefore sort of like a "second name") shouldnt be classified as a trademark -A1candidate (talk) 17:09, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Over
Hello,
the correct way to write this album is: Bridge Over Troubled Water. The album's liner notes among other sources write the "Over" in uppercase. So, why does Wikipedia create such odd rules and propose to write incorrectly? Regards.--Tomcat (7) 21:20, 5 November 2012 (UTC)
- And other sources use "over" in lowercase, which is not incorrect. We propose to write with stylistic consistency. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:49, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- Uhm, so you are basically saying that unreliable sources are the same as reliable sources? Suggest you read WP:V. Really, why do most of the reviews write it Bridge Over Troubled Water? Regards.--Tomcat (7) 11:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- Uhm, no, that's not what I was basically saying. Suggest you read again. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- You haven't proofed me that reliable sources use Bridge over Troubled Water. Also what about WP:COMMONNAME?--Tomcat (7) 12:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- This isn't a sourcing issue, it's a style issue. And as editors of this publication, we are required to follow the in-house style. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't follow your logic. The guideline is about how the article should be titled. And it states that inacurrate titles are to be avoided.--Tomcat (7) 13:11, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- It's not an inaccurate title. The wording is not in dispute, the styling is the only issue. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:18, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- I don't follow your logic. The guideline is about how the article should be titled. And it states that inacurrate titles are to be avoided.--Tomcat (7) 13:11, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- This isn't a sourcing issue, it's a style issue. And as editors of this publication, we are required to follow the in-house style. --Rob Sinden (talk) 13:05, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- You haven't proofed me that reliable sources use Bridge over Troubled Water. Also what about WP:COMMONNAME?--Tomcat (7) 12:58, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- Uhm, no, that's not what I was basically saying. Suggest you read again. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:15, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
- Uhm, so you are basically saying that unreliable sources are the same as reliable sources? Suggest you read WP:V. Really, why do most of the reviews write it Bridge Over Troubled Water? Regards.--Tomcat (7) 11:35, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Apostrophes
As an encyclopaedia, and therefore somewhere that should have impeccable grammar. Surly unless a place name specifically doesn't have an apostrophe, ie it never has or it has had its name officially changed, then Wikipedia should always include the apostrophe, even if it's drifted out of use? Theofficeprankster (talk) 11:23, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- See WP:OFFICIALNAME and WP:COMMONNAME. Surely, Wikipedia should use the common name, which would be the one that lacks an apostrophe if the apostrophe is no longer in common use. Also, the "Capital letters" talk page may not be the best choice for discussing punctuation. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:48, 10 November 2012 (UTC)
- So basically if something is done wrong enough, it becomes true? Theofficeprankster (talk) 21:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
- The talk pages of the two guidelines above would be the place to try and build consensus for switching to linguistic prescription. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:21, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- So basically if something is done wrong enough, it becomes true? Theofficeprankster (talk) 21:09, 11 November 2012 (UTC)
Is "like" to be capitalized?
Blue Like Jazz or Blue like Jazz? A recent series of moves suggests it's the latter but I have never seen it in lower case. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:26, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- As an adverb, it should be capitalized. The recent series of moves may have mistaken it for a preposition. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/like#Adverb vs. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/like#Preposition. -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:06, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe there should be an sub-rule for adverb-y prepositions. Prepositions that can be modified by "more" or "most" seem well-suited to capitalization. "Blue More Like Jazz", "Blue Most Like Jazz" (vs. "One Flew More over the Cuckoo's Nest", "One Flew Most over the Cuckoo's Nest"). -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:17, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I didn't know the rule and was loath to undo the change. You'll see the editor made several other, similar changes. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hi. I was the editor. Looks like I was a bit too bold with the move. However, I am reading "like" as a preposition in this title, comparing "Blue" and "Jazz" versus "like" further describing blue (Close to blue, almost blue, blue-like), but I believe it would be hyphenated in that case. From what I can see, "like" is rarely used on its own as an adverb, mostly in colloquial speech as outlined in Like. The use of the word in this title does not seem to be one of those indicated. BOVINEBOY2008 20:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Then it would be correctly titled "Blue, like Jazz". --Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:11, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
- Hi. I was the editor. Looks like I was a bit too bold with the move. However, I am reading "like" as a preposition in this title, comparing "Blue" and "Jazz" versus "like" further describing blue (Close to blue, almost blue, blue-like), but I believe it would be hyphenated in that case. From what I can see, "like" is rarely used on its own as an adverb, mostly in colloquial speech as outlined in Like. The use of the word in this title does not seem to be one of those indicated. BOVINEBOY2008 20:04, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks. I didn't know the rule and was loath to undo the change. You'll see the editor made several other, similar changes. --Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:36, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe there should be an sub-rule for adverb-y prepositions. Prepositions that can be modified by "more" or "most" seem well-suited to capitalization. "Blue More Like Jazz", "Blue Most Like Jazz" (vs. "One Flew More over the Cuckoo's Nest", "One Flew Most over the Cuckoo's Nest"). -- JHunterJ (talk) 18:17, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- OK, there's some sort of disconnect here. I would always capitalize the word over in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and our articles on both the novel and the film agree. If the MoS doesn't, then the MoS must change, because capitalizing over is correct. --Trovatore (talk) 22:15, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- But see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo%27s_Nest_(film)&diff=226988208&oldid=226922250 and http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=One+Flew+over+the%2COne+Flew+Over+the&year_start=1950&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share= and http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/health/report-on-eva-peron-recalls-time-when-lobotomy-was-embraced.html?_r=0 . It's not a question of "correct" (they are both "correct"), it's a question of style. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- I strenuously object to any style recommendation that would not capitalize over in a title. --Trovatore (talk) 23:51, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- And what does that mean, exactly, since this isn't a courtroom? -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:05, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- It looks very very wrong. I was taught that the only words you don't capitalize are the "unimportant" ones, essentially the ones that have no content. A, an, the, and, or, but, maybe nor; that's about it. I think that will be the expectation of a majority of readers. --Trovatore (talk) 00:11, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- And what does that mean, exactly, since this isn't a courtroom? -- JHunterJ (talk) 00:05, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
- I strenuously object to any style recommendation that would not capitalize over in a title. --Trovatore (talk) 23:51, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- But see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=One_Flew_Over_the_Cuckoo%27s_Nest_(film)&diff=226988208&oldid=226922250 and http://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=One+Flew+over+the%2COne+Flew+Over+the&year_start=1950&year_end=2000&corpus=15&smoothing=3&share= and http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/20/health/report-on-eva-peron-recalls-time-when-lobotomy-was-embraced.html?_r=0 . It's not a question of "correct" (they are both "correct"), it's a question of style. -- JHunterJ (talk) 23:40, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
- OK, there's some sort of disconnect here. I would always capitalize the word over in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, and our articles on both the novel and the film agree. If the MoS doesn't, then the MoS must change, because capitalizing over is correct. --Trovatore (talk) 22:15, 12 November 2012 (UTC)
US Supreme Court members
In their article intros, should the members of the US Supreme Court have their offices capitalized or not? Former members, aswell as current members. GoodDay (talk) 05:24, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- How about a link or something less elliptical? Dicklyon (talk) 05:56, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- Here's an example change at the Elena Kagan article. -- GoodDay (talk) 06:34, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- If you look for such phrases in books, you find a mix. Per MOS:CAPS, WP style would suggest lower case (like this). Dicklyon (talk) 06:48, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, it doesn't matter what books say as Wikipedia uses its own MOS. In this instance, there's no ambiguity. Lowercase is required by MOS:CAPS. As for GoodDay's claim that other articles do it wrong, WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS is no justification for having it wrong in these articles, and this is an instance where I changed it to lowercase, yet GoodDay insisted on reverting, despite the guideline.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- I went with capitalization, due to the presidents, vice presidents, cabinet members bio articles, etc etc. GoodDay (talk) 07:11, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- If you look for such phrases in books, you find a mix. Per MOS:CAPS, WP style would suggest lower case (like this). Dicklyon (talk) 06:48, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
- Here's an example change at the Elena Kagan article. -- GoodDay (talk) 06:34, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Bridge over Troubled Water vs Bridge Over Trouble Water
Anyone have anything to add at Talk:Bridge_over_Troubled_Water#Requested_move_2 --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Star Trek into Darkness vs Star Trek Into Darkness
Anyone have anything to add at Talk:Star Trek into Darkness#Into vs into --Rob Sinden (talk) 12:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
Till vs. till
Additional input is welcome at Talk:From Dusk till Dawn#Requested move. --87.79.133.209 (talk) 16:27, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
4-letter prepositions in composition titles
WP:CT is clear that only prepositions of five letters or more should have their first letter capitalized, but I've never seen an uncapitalized four-letter preposition in a title that didn't look wrong. The aforementioned Star Trek RM touches on this; it's definitely against CT, but it just looks sloppy and doesn't appear that way in most sources. I'm not the type to prefer source styling over MOS styling, though, so would anyone be amenable to expanding CT to capitalize four-letter prepositions? And don't tell me how much work that would entail—just whether it would be right or wrong, please. --BDD (talk) 17:33, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
- It would suffer from the same problem with different words, such as "with" and "from" (View from the Top, It Came from Beneath the Sea, The Man with the Golden Gun, etc.) I think an explicit list is in order if the rule is to be changed, capitalizing some four-letter prepositions and leaving others uncapitalized. Maybe even capitalize some three-letter prepositions, as we already do in 33⅓ Revolutions Per Monkee. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:40, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
- Glad to see someone's talking about this. We've digressed on the "Into" argument regarding Star Trek, and we've opened a whole new can of worms. If, as some sources are suggesting, "into" becomes part of a phrasal verb, should it be capitalised according to the MOS? As far as we can see, it should. If that is the case, there are many articles (see a massive list of examples in the Star Trek discussion, some of which qualify) that may also need the "into" capitalised. Might it be wise for us to discuss the existence of phrasal verbs, and how this affects capitalisation? drewmunn (talk) 12:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide an example of a phrasal verb using "into"? (The Star Trek problem, IMO, is not one of phrasal-verbness, but instead stems from the use of a subtitle "Into Darkness" without the normal colon or dash or other indication; clever marketing, perhaps, but lousy style; as a sentence, "Star trek into darkness" doesn't work so well, so "Star Trek into Darkness" doesn't either, but neither does "Star Trek Into Darkness"; I'd go with "Star Trek: Into Darkness", and ignore their marketing style. But I realize that perspective is probably just one of many in that discussion.) -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:08, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
- Crash into Me and I'm into Something Good are two examples of the word being used as particles of the verb and should be capitalized, but aren't. There are many more. I also found Run Into the Light as one example of "into" being capitalized in a title, yet I'm not really sure it should be since it does look like it's being used as a preposition there. --DocNox (talk) 23:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
- Whay should "Crash into Me" be capitalised? I don't think this is a phrasal verb. The verb is "to crash", "into" is just the preposition. Not sure about "I'm into Something Good" though - maybe in this context "to be into" is a phrasal verb. "Run into the Light" shouldn't be capitalised though, unless it is about a chance encounter with the light! --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Crash into Me and I'm into Something Good are two examples of the word being used as particles of the verb and should be capitalized, but aren't. There are many more. I also found Run Into the Light as one example of "into" being capitalized in a title, yet I'm not really sure it should be since it does look like it's being used as a preposition there. --DocNox (talk) 23:55, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Be careful as to what is a phrasal verb and what isn't. "Trek into" wouldn't be a phrasal verb. In this example, "trek" is the verb, and "into" the preposition. However, "run into", as in accidentally meet some one, would be a phrasal verb, and in this example "into" should be capitalised in a composition title. However if you "ran into" a shop to get something, this is not a phrasal verb. --Rob Sinden (talk) 14:10, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
- Can you provide an example of a phrasal verb using "into"? (The Star Trek problem, IMO, is not one of phrasal-verbness, but instead stems from the use of a subtitle "Into Darkness" without the normal colon or dash or other indication; clever marketing, perhaps, but lousy style; as a sentence, "Star trek into darkness" doesn't work so well, so "Star Trek into Darkness" doesn't either, but neither does "Star Trek Into Darkness"; I'd go with "Star Trek: Into Darkness", and ignore their marketing style. But I realize that perspective is probably just one of many in that discussion.) -- JHunterJ (talk) 14:08, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
- Glad to see someone's talking about this. We've digressed on the "Into" argument regarding Star Trek, and we've opened a whole new can of worms. If, as some sources are suggesting, "into" becomes part of a phrasal verb, should it be capitalised according to the MOS? As far as we can see, it should. If that is the case, there are many articles (see a massive list of examples in the Star Trek discussion, some of which qualify) that may also need the "into" capitalised. Might it be wise for us to discuss the existence of phrasal verbs, and how this affects capitalisation? drewmunn (talk) 12:56, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
- As far as a general phrasal verb goes, "trek into" isn't one. I'm not talking about specifically Star Trek - that's a more complicated problem. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Having read what you've put forward so far, it's straightened stuff out for me a little more. I agree now that "trek into" in it's pure form probably can't be a phrasal verb; as you say, it doesn't really have extra meaning when combined. "Star Trek Into", however, probably could be, if you take it to mean the franchise gets dark. However, as you said, that complex and not really for this discussion. I know it's simplistic and probably too broad, but as suggested earlier by BDD, could we expand CT to cover "Into"? As suggested by JHunterJ, I don't think all 4-letter prepositions need CT, but some, specifically "into" could probably do with it. It would deal with all cases without the argument on a case-by-case basis. drewmunn (talk) 09:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- But what would be the justification for tmaking a special exception for "into"? Surely it should follow the same rules as every other preposition. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Other than avoiding arguments such as the Star Trek one, I have nothing. drewmunn (talk) 09:17, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- The suggestion at WT:MOS#WP:NCCAPS → "shorter than five letters" rule is to abandon the letter-counting approach to preposition capitalization and instead identify which prepositions get capitalized and which don't. It wouldn't be a "special exception" for any of them. -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:30, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- But what would be the justification for tmaking a special exception for "into"? Surely it should follow the same rules as every other preposition. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:15, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- Having read what you've put forward so far, it's straightened stuff out for me a little more. I agree now that "trek into" in it's pure form probably can't be a phrasal verb; as you say, it doesn't really have extra meaning when combined. "Star Trek Into", however, probably could be, if you take it to mean the franchise gets dark. However, as you said, that complex and not really for this discussion. I know it's simplistic and probably too broad, but as suggested earlier by BDD, could we expand CT to cover "Into"? As suggested by JHunterJ, I don't think all 4-letter prepositions need CT, but some, specifically "into" could probably do with it. It would deal with all cases without the argument on a case-by-case basis. drewmunn (talk) 09:11, 19 December 2012 (UTC)
- As far as a general phrasal verb goes, "trek into" isn't one. I'm not talking about specifically Star Trek - that's a more complicated problem. --Rob Sinden (talk) 09:00, 19 December 2012 (UTC)