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Where to place a "Personal life" section?
Dear fellow editors,
I have looked in MOS:LAYOUT and here, in MOS:BIOGRAPHY, and found no guidance on where a Personal life section (distinct from Early life) ought to be located in a biographical article. I have seen that section quite close to the top (e.g. Nat King Cole), or about halfway down (e.g. John F. Kennedy), or closer to the back matter (e.g. Jane Fonda).
I have also seen that section called Personal relationships (e.g. Paul McCartney), even though there is often more than relationships in someone's personal life.
Question: Is that guidance documented somewhere else in the MOS, or nowhere at all? In the latter case, would it not be useful to have it documented in this article, with a shortcut of MOS:PERSLIFE, for example?
Personally, I would tend to locate that section close to the back matter of an article, essentially because notability is not primarily derived from someone's personal life, even though many notable people are also quite "notorious", shall we say.
In any case, thank you for any pointers to where that guidance is documented if it exists, as I can't find it.
With kind regards; Patrick. ツ Pdebee.(talk)(become old-fashioned!) 17:11, 28 February 2020 (UTC)
- Isn't it usually located as the very first section? PPEMES (talk) 18:26, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- I prefer to place it close to last (not counting references and external links), because it is the section that is least likely to be important for the subject's notability. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:07, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
- If a person has a list of accolades or the various bibliographies or -ologies, the personal life should be before those sections (Which should be seen as "reference material" to the body of the article - highlights of these should already be indicated in the body). But this is not a fixed rule. A case I know where it comes earlier is on Stan Lee where the personal life stuff is dealt with early so that the rest of the article deals with his comic book influence. --Masem (t) 01:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
- Should there be a separate section? Isn't all life personal? Shouldn't various events just be chronological?--Jack Upland (talk) 05:47, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
- If a person has a list of accolades or the various bibliographies or -ologies, the personal life should be before those sections (Which should be seen as "reference material" to the body of the article - highlights of these should already be indicated in the body). But this is not a fixed rule. A case I know where it comes earlier is on Stan Lee where the personal life stuff is dealt with early so that the rest of the article deals with his comic book influence. --Masem (t) 01:42, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
- Typically a person's adult personal life is not first, since Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Biography#Order_of_events says that events are usually listed chronologically. Their career or other claim to fame is typically in the middle of their life. If their personal life is unrelated to their career or notability, it makes sense to just list the major points towards the end of the page.16:00, 27 April 2020 (UTC)
- That means it's a judgment call by an editor about how important someone's marriage or children is to their career or notability. I don't think editors are competent to make that call. Most biographies you read are chronological and will treat marriages etc as they occur. Not here. So-called "personal life" is bracketed at the start or end of the article. The article implies that the subject's friends are important for his career, but the woman he has married isn't. There is a strong cultural bias here towards a strong distinction between public and private life which is very old-fashioned, and in some cases sexist. It also defeats the purpose of a chronological order if you come to the end of the article and realise the subject got married way back in 1896 and that that coincided with the end of his seafaring career. It's telling the story of someone's life, but taking out the milestones.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:33, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
- I prefer to place it close to last (not counting references and external links), because it is the section that is least likely to be important for the subject's notability. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:07, 9 March 2020 (UTC)
Little Richard
There is discussion at Talk:Little Richard on this point, and it may be useful to have some input from editors here. The singer Little Richard was born Richard Penniman, and his real name was known throughout his career although it was never used as part of his performing name. The article currently refers to him throughout, except in quotes, as "Penniman". Some other editors have objected that "Richard" (or "Little Richard") should be used throughout, presumably even when his biography discusses matters unrelated to his recordings or performances. I think there's a general agreement that the article should be consistent throughout. Similar examples, I guess, might be Madonna, Lady Gaga, Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf, etc. Do any editors on this page wish to express an opinion, or point to any clear guidance on the point? Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:11, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
RFC on post-nominals for Catholic bishops
With articles such as this in mind, can post-nominals be used in lists of bishops and other places? WT:CATHOLIC#Post-nominals RFC. Elizium23 (talk) 08:50, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
- The RfC is asking much more than this, and includes proposals to make topic-specific potential exceptions to MOS:POSTNOM. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:56, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
Gro Harlem is not Harlem
I'd like to suggest changing the following example in MOS:BIRTHDATE to something that does not use a person's name that sounds like a placename:
- Gro Harlem Brundtland (... born Gro Harlem; 20 April 1939) is a Norwegian politician ...
At one point I went looking for whether placenames should be inside the birth/death range, and misinterpreted Gro Harlem as some version of that Harlem in New York. Then, based on MOS, I began inserting placenames into the birth and death date range on new articles (since corrected).
It might also be worth adding "places of birth and death do not belong in the birth-death date range parenteheses", and where they do belong, in a shortcut like MOS:BIRTHPLACE that is not a redirect, but actually tells you where to put the birth/death places. Just for confused editors like myself. Hopefully there are not too many of us.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 01:13, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- It says "Birth and death places, if known, should be mentioned in the body of the article, and can appear in the lead if relevant to notability, but not in the opening brackets alongside the birth and death dates." DrKay (talk) 06:55, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Well I must need new glasses. I still find Gro Harlem isn't helping.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 14:10, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Um... “Gro Harlem” is the subject’s actual NAME. It has nothing to do with his birthplace.Blueboar (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- She was born in Oslo. Bus stop (talk) 15:30, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Blueboar: yes, but the point is it sounds like a placename (Harlem or Haarlem).ThatMontrealIP (talk) 16:46, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- It doesn't say "born in Gro Harlem". Bus stop (talk) 17:17, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- "entertainment"? I don't think you are describing me. Bus stop (talk) 17:50, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- And you prove the point.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:56, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- "entertainment"? I don't think you are describing me. Bus stop (talk) 17:50, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- It doesn't say "born in Gro Harlem". Bus stop (talk) 17:17, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Um... “Gro Harlem” is the subject’s actual NAME. It has nothing to do with his birthplace.Blueboar (talk) 14:27, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- suppose it read: “John Lincoln Smith (born John Lincoln; 16 May, 2020)”... would you be confused and think the article was discussing the place name Lincoln, Nebraska? I doubt it. Blueboar (talk) 23:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Well I must need new glasses. I still find Gro Harlem isn't helping.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 14:10, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
Generational suffixes - US / British English variants
It seems to me that the form of "generational suffixes" (or generational differentiations/disambiguations) is is more a matter of British English versus US English. It's quite usual in British English to refer to Thomas I Walsingham, Thomas II Walsingham, Thomas III Walsingham, etc., as ways of distinguishing generations. In the US they do it differently (as in the current Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography#Generational and regnal suffixes) as in "Henry Ford I", "Henry Ford II", etc., which are in substance quasi-peerage titles (they certainly are used as indicators of social importance), or as close as Americans can get to them. This latter style is alien to British English. I think if a Brit referred to his son as "John Smith II" there might be some ribaldry suffered by him down the boozer. It's not British usage and would be considered highly pompous and self-important, even by a wealthy and prominent, but untitled, Brit. The reason Americans get confused by mid-name nominal letters is that they are accustomed to see in that position an initial of a second fore-name, as in "George W. Bush" (or even "Donald J. Trump", where no disambiguation is required from his father's name). That form of mid-name initial is alien to British usage. I therefore propose a restating of the MOS section to allow what I have suggested above to be a British usage, where the article concerned has a "use British English" tag. I've done a WP:BOLD to kick off the discussion.→Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:20, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- British people don't use numerical generational suffixes in the middle of the name, or usually at the end. No change is needed. DrKay (talk) 11:30, 16 May 2020 (UTC) Amended DrKay (talk) 12:28, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- DrKay, British people don't, that's correct, but Americans do. You have emphasised my point - there is a difference in usage in this area, which needs to be addressed in the MOS.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:36, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- I can find no reliable sources whatever for Thomas III Walsingham or Thomas I Walsingham, and only one for "Thomas [II] Walsingham" (brackets in the original) which is a book written by Amherst professor Arthur F. Kinney published in North Haven, Connecticut, in 1973. DrKay (talk) 11:44, 16 May 2020 (UTC) Amended 08:24, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- DrKay, British people don't, that's correct, but Americans do. You have emphasised my point - there is a difference in usage in this area, which needs to be addressed in the MOS.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:36, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- And the point of opening this discussion here is? The guidance is elsewhere, i.e. WP:JR (to be discussed at WT:MOS), and, for article titles, WP:JR/SR (which, in this respect, generally follows the decisions at WT:MOS). Might be a good idea to introduce a British English example with an ordinal number at WP:JR/SR, that is: if you have one. --Francis Schonken (talk) 11:32, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Francis Schonken, if it's a question of introducing a British English example with an ordinal number, I don't think we'll find many of the "Henry Ford I, Henry Ford II" variety in English historical works. I think the closest we'll come is "Henry I, Henry II", with the surname omitted entirely, which may be unclear in certain contexts.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:41, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Dr Kay, you have found a reference to "Thomas [II] Walsingham" in your source. That confirms my point, surely? Can you now find any reference to "Thomas Walsingham [II]" - or even without the brackets?Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:56, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Neither Connecticut nor Amherst are in England. Your point is disproven. DrKay (talk) 12:04, 16 May 2020 (UTC) Amended 08:24, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- "Thomas Walsingham II": In search of Christopher Marlowe (1965) by A. D. Wraight, p. 249; The History of Chislehurst (1899) by Edward Alfred Webb (brother of Aston Webb), pp. 116–7; Archaeologia Cantiana (1986) volume 102, page 8: all British authors in British sources found literally within 5 minutes of searching. DrKay (talk) 12:10, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Dr Kay, "self-evident crap" and "deluded" are not examples of WP:Civility.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 12:15, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- The text of my proposed amendment is as follows:
- For Roman numeral generational disambiguations, usages may differ between US and British English. The usual US form is "Henry Ford I, Henry Ford II", etc, which is not used in British English, certainly not in the spoken form. The normal convention in British English when referring to historical people is to place the Roman numeral mid-name, as in "Thomas I Walsingham, Thomas II Walsingham, Thomas III Walsingham", etc. The British variant should be used where the article has a "use British English" tag. Where the US form is used do not place a comma before a Roman numeral name suffix, whether it is patronymic or regnal: use Otis D. Wright II, not Otis D. Wright, II.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 12:15, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've proven without doubt that the proposed addition is garbage, but you persist in pushing it. In my view this is Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. DrKay (talk) 12:21, 16 May 2020 (UTC) Amended 08:24, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Dr Kay, you have made your position clear, albeit in an uncivil way, you or I alone will not decide on the consensus on this issue, this talk process is supposed to invite a wider discussion, so let's wait and see if we can get elucidation and opinions from other users. Thanks.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 12:29, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- I've proven without doubt that the proposed addition is garbage, but you persist in pushing it. In my view this is Wikipedia:Disruptive editing. DrKay (talk) 12:21, 16 May 2020 (UTC) Amended 08:24, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- For Roman numeral generational disambiguations, usages may differ between US and British English. The usual US form is "Henry Ford I, Henry Ford II", etc, which is not used in British English, certainly not in the spoken form. The normal convention in British English when referring to historical people is to place the Roman numeral mid-name, as in "Thomas I Walsingham, Thomas II Walsingham, Thomas III Walsingham", etc. The British variant should be used where the article has a "use British English" tag. Where the US form is used do not place a comma before a Roman numeral name suffix, whether it is patronymic or regnal: use Otis D. Wright II, not Otis D. Wright, II.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 12:15, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- The text of my proposed amendment is as follows:
- Dr Kay, "self-evident crap" and "deluded" are not examples of WP:Civility.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 12:15, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Dr Kay, you have found a reference to "Thomas [II] Walsingham" in your source. That confirms my point, surely? Can you now find any reference to "Thomas Walsingham [II]" - or even without the brackets?Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:56, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Francis Schonken, if it's a question of introducing a British English example with an ordinal number, I don't think we'll find many of the "Henry Ford I, Henry Ford II" variety in English historical works. I think the closest we'll come is "Henry I, Henry II", with the surname omitted entirely, which may be unclear in certain contexts.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 11:41, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
"It's quite usual in British English to refer to Thomas I Walsingham, Thomas II Walsingham, Thomas III Walsingham, etc." - err I am British and I have never seen that ever. GiantSnowman 12:39, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- GiantSnowman, are you familiar with the Victoria County History? It's how the Victoria County History series does it, a highly reputable and academic source. See for example the history of the manor of Nuneham: William acquired large estates in several counties and an important position in the feudal hierarchy: he held his honor of Stogursey by the service of 25¼ knights. (fn. 96) He was dead by 1130 and had been succeeded by his son William (II) de Courcy, who was probably dead by 1155, and by his grandson William (III) de Courcy, whose younger brother John conquered Ulster. (fn. 97). William (III) de Courcy's second wife, Gundreda de Warenne, had Nuneham as her dower... ('Parishes: Nuneham Courtenay', in A History of the County of Oxford: Volume 5, Bullingdon Hundred, ed. Mary D Lobel (London, 1957), pp. 234-249. British History Online http://www.british-history.ac.uk/vch/oxon/vol5/pp234-249 [accessed 16 May 2020]). (The brackets are as printed in the text). It's in this context of descent of manors when the disambiguation is most necessary, as several generations of men with the same name is often talked about in the same paragraph. VCH clearly thought about how best to do it, and came up with mid-name numerals. I think that's a persuasive precedent. That text is from 1957, so it's pretty much cutting edge. Another point in its favour, it makes for less clumsy English, compare: William (III) de Courcy's second wife and William de Courcy III's second wife, the latter's a bit of a mouthful, but I can't second-guess the reasons for VCH's editorial decision. Lobsterthermidor (talk) 13:14, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- In Wikipedia,
- William (I) de Courcy → William de Courcy (died before 1130)
- William (II) de Courcy → William de Courcy (died 1171)
- William (III) de Courcy (no separate article, mentioned in his father's article: "... a son, William de Courcy, who died in 1194", so, likely, this William's article would be William de Courcy (died 1194), if continuing the series)
- However, Wikipedia also has an article on the father of William de Courcy (died before 1130): that father, unsurprisingly, was also called William de Courcy. His article is at William de Courcy (died c. 1114). Which illustrates the system with intermittent parenthetical ordinals ... is useless in Wikipedia. Or would that be William (0) de Courcy for that last one? Or give them all a different ordinal? Until a French ancestor with the same name is found, and they'd all be renumbered? No, doesn't work, should be kept out of guidance. If you'd like to test this new type of ordinal numbering then conduct WP:RMs on the Williams found at William de Courcy – I'd predict WP:SNOW fails for such attempts. So until if and when such RMs would be successful this should be kept out of guidance. --Francis Schonken (talk) 13:43, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Francis Schonken, you are possibly mixing up two areas, page naming and referring to people in the body of text within an article. Both seem to have different conventions in WP. We are here discussing the latter not the former. Furthermore, what you seem to be suggesting is that the whole system of using Roman numerals should be scrapped. We are talking here merely about whether they should go at the end or in the middle of a name, we are not (as far as I have understood it) discussing whether using Roman numerals is "useless in Wikipedia", as you suggest. The numeral system as used in VCH starts at "I" with the first of that name to hold/acquire the manor, thus if his father had the same first name but was seated elsewhere, he would not be referred to as either "I" - or as you suggest "0". Once a (mediaeval/pre-modern era) gentleman moves to a new seat, he effectively starts a new branch of a gentry family, the counter is reset to I, that's just British genealogical convention, see for example Burke's Landed Gentry, where families are listed by seat, not by common ancestor, it would just get too complex. For example "Howard of Glossop" is a different family to "Howard of Castle Howard", although both share common ancestry.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 14:45, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- In Wikipedia,
- To my way of thinking, the issue here is whether we want to adopt the “ordinal in the middle” convention for UK oriented articles. And the key to that is determining whether it is commonly used in the UK (as opposed to being something used by just one or two sources). I accept that at least one source uses it, but I don’t think it is common. I read a LOT of British history, and I have never come across it before. Thus, I don’t think we should adopt it. Blueboar (talk) 15:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Fully agreed. GiantSnowman 15:38, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) At John de Courcy article:
[John de Courcy's] grandfather, William de Courcy I, married Emma of Falaise. His father, William de Courcy II, married Avice de Meschines and died about 1155, leaving the family estates in Somerset and elsewhere in England to his son, William de Courcy III, John's elder brother.
- For clarity, that is: "[[William de Courcy (died before 1130)|William de Courcy II]], married Avice de Meschines and died about 1155" (emphasis added) – had a second lease on life surely? At Stogursey article:
... William and Geva's daughter, Emma, was betrothed to William de Courcy, ...
- At Nuneham Courtenay article:
..., Richard de Courcy. It remained in his family until the death of his great-grandson, William (III) de Courcy in 1176.
- ... which seems the least helpful (while "III" cannot refer to any person if it's not used in article titles, and there is no wikilink to an article – and the given death date apparently does not correspond to any known "William de Courcy"). As such, all of this seems to indicate that the I/II/III indications, whether given in the middle of the names of these persons or at the end, whether in brackets or not, are anyhow always confusing, at least to Wikipedia editors... leave alone to readers. Don't use. Use disambiguators corresponding to article titles, so that also in print or PDF versions it is always clear which one of these persons is meant. --Francis Schonken (talk) 15:40, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Blueboar, this is not a matter related to "British history" per se, where usually only one member of a family is under discussion within a wide context, and thus disambiguation is not necessary. It's not something a reader of general British history would expect to come across. I can think of the two William Pitts in this connection, but it's rare to come across it in broad subjects. It mainly becomes necessary when multi-generations of the same family, with the same first name, seated at the same manor, are being discussed. That is what manorial history is all about, and that's a huge topic about which thousands of books and articles have been written over the centuries. The VCH is by far the most authoritative and up-to-date source and they chose to use mid-name numerals, based on the deliberations of a (no doubt) huge editorial team. I'm not necessarily suggesting a rigid convention to be followed in all British history articles, rather just an option for use where the context seems to require it, for example in articles on multi-generational manorial histories. So in conclusion I'm saying, A: it's a British convention, and B: it should therefore be an option when writing British English wikipedia articles.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 15:59, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- It has already been demonstrated that it is not a British convention. DrKay (talk) 17:05, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- From John Hudson (historian)'s Historia Ecclesie Abbendonensis: The History of the Church of Abingdon, Volume II, pp. 80–81 "William de Courcy I", "William de Courcy II", "William de Courcy III"
- From Sussex Notes and Queries (1935), p. 160: "William de Courcy (III.)"
- From Duffy's essay on John de Courcy in Colony and Frontier in Medieval Ireland, p. 4: "William de Courcy III was the son of William de Courcy II"
- Also from Duffy in Medieval Ireland: An Encyclopedia, p. 181: "a brother of William de Courcy III (died 1171)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by DrKay (talk • contribs)
- DrKay, As to whether it's a British convention, yes it is according to Victoria County History. That's a decades long collaboration by probably hundreds of British academics, closely edited by highly regarded leaders in the field. Other sources, such as the ones quoted by you (possibly older than 1957, the date of VCH), follow a different convention. If you think VCH is wrong in their approach, that's a bold accusation, as VCH is the top standard source for such genealogical articles. One of your sources, Sussex Notes and Queries, is basically correspondence from readers asking advice from other readers, so possibly not a more authoritative source than VCH. What we have proved here is that authoritative sources deal with this issue in two different ways, so one might say that neither is definitively wrong or right. Why therefore does WP feel the need to lay down the law in this area and demand a rigid adherance to one of the two schools of thought? And how can it be right that a WP contributor writing an article on manorial history and following the precedent chosen by the leading, most up-to-date, source on manorial histories can get censured by WP for being incorrect? We are meant to be guided by authoritative outside influences, rather than deciding on our own whims. We need more flexibility in this area.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 21:02, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Hudson and Duffy are expert medievalists writing in the 21st century. Even a mediocre scholar could find that out in seconds by simply clicking on the links or looking at the sources. Only delusional and ill-informed amateurs wouldn't even bother to do that. DrKay (talk) 22:07, 16 May 2020 (UTC) Amended 08:24, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- DrKay, As to whether it's a British convention, yes it is according to Victoria County History. That's a decades long collaboration by probably hundreds of British academics, closely edited by highly regarded leaders in the field. Other sources, such as the ones quoted by you (possibly older than 1957, the date of VCH), follow a different convention. If you think VCH is wrong in their approach, that's a bold accusation, as VCH is the top standard source for such genealogical articles. One of your sources, Sussex Notes and Queries, is basically correspondence from readers asking advice from other readers, so possibly not a more authoritative source than VCH. What we have proved here is that authoritative sources deal with this issue in two different ways, so one might say that neither is definitively wrong or right. Why therefore does WP feel the need to lay down the law in this area and demand a rigid adherance to one of the two schools of thought? And how can it be right that a WP contributor writing an article on manorial history and following the precedent chosen by the leading, most up-to-date, source on manorial histories can get censured by WP for being incorrect? We are meant to be guided by authoritative outside influences, rather than deciding on our own whims. We need more flexibility in this area.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 21:02, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) At John de Courcy article:
- Fully agreed. GiantSnowman 15:38, 16 May 2020 (UTC)
- Lobsterthermidor - it is not a standard British convention, it is the house style of one project. That is a major difference
- DrKay - please keep it civil. GiantSnowman 07:44, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- A case could be made for using these mid-name Roman numerals (in brackets - not bare as suggested here) in articles that are based on the VCH descents where that work uses them. However, I think that Lobsterthermidor wants them to be allowed even when no reliable sources use them, in any format. The deficient Devon VCH contains no descents but he's already added I, II, III, etc to names in over 50 Devon-based articles. Examples: Newnham (Old); Little Fulford; Manor of Orleigh; Kingston, Staverton. As he's pointed out above these are not straightforward to allocate so I'm sure this is not an acceptable practice because it makes WP the primary source for these identifiers. —SMALLJIM 09:33, 17 May 2020 (UTC) Edited 14:06, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- For clarity, Stogursey, Nuneham Courtenay, Newnham (Old), Little Fulford, Manor of Orleigh, Kingston, Staverton, ... are not biographical articles in the sense of Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Biography. So, returning to the first question I asked: why is this on *this* talk page and not on the talk page of the WP:JR guidance?
- Other than that, Lobsterthermidor's practice of using them where there's no broad support for them in reliable sources should be rejected – and reverted. Failing explicit guidance, Wikipedia's style, including using names as they appear in article titles in order to avoid ambiguity, should be used. Not some exceptional style for which there aren't even redirects to connect somewhat surprisingly spelled names with articles on these persons (which also don't explain these exceptional naming variants): It is quite unclear why someone would push for such somewhat deliberate confusions (see de Courcy examples I gave above). --Francis Schonken (talk) 14:58, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Agree that there is no consensus for this style and @Lobsterthermidor: needs to stop adding them. Continuing in the face of such opposition would be considered disruptive. GiantSnowman 16:52, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed. Not a usual style in the UK and no consensus to use it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:23, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- OK thanks, I can see my arguments have fallen on stony ground, I withdraw my suggested amendment and will desist from following the VCH style. Thanks to all for the (mostly) civil and productive input and best wishes to all.Lobsterthermidor (talk) 12:26, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Agreed. Not a usual style in the UK and no consensus to use it. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:23, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Agree that there is no consensus for this style and @Lobsterthermidor: needs to stop adding them. Continuing in the face of such opposition would be considered disruptive. GiantSnowman 16:52, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
- A case could be made for using these mid-name Roman numerals (in brackets - not bare as suggested here) in articles that are based on the VCH descents where that work uses them. However, I think that Lobsterthermidor wants them to be allowed even when no reliable sources use them, in any format. The deficient Devon VCH contains no descents but he's already added I, II, III, etc to names in over 50 Devon-based articles. Examples: Newnham (Old); Little Fulford; Manor of Orleigh; Kingston, Staverton. As he's pointed out above these are not straightforward to allocate so I'm sure this is not an acceptable practice because it makes WP the primary source for these identifiers. —SMALLJIM 09:33, 17 May 2020 (UTC) Edited 14:06, 17 May 2020 (UTC)
Fixing outstanding cases
I withdraw my suggested amendment and will desist from following the VCH style.
Thank you, Lobsterthermidor. Except that it's not really a "suggested amendment", it's a belated request for approval of something that you've been doing for years.
Now, in view of the OR aspect, what is the position regarding fixing the outstanding cases? Is the editor who added the content encouraged to fix, or is it just left for someone else to clean up (or more likely - because it will involve a lot of work - not)? —SMALLJIM 13:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- The editor in question should attempt to clean up their mess. Doing so will be looked upon far more favourably than leaving others to do it. GiantSnowman 16:30, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thanks, I thought that was the expectation - showing concern for the encyclopedia's accuracy and consideration for its community of editors. Pinging Lobsterthermidor in case he's already dropped this page. —SMALLJIM 15:06, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
The home_town parameter of Template:Infobox_person
Please see: Template talk:Infobox person#Proposal: Repurpose and redocument the home_town parameter.
As I know that changes to major infoboxes are often controversial (and many to that template in particular have been WP:VPPOL RfCs in their own right), it seemed pertinent to notify broadly of the proposal.
Summary: We removed |residence=
, but kept this parameter for childhood non-birthplace residence, despite that being usually trivia. The proposal would repurpose this parameter for long-term residency places during the subject's period of notability.
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 21:32, 19 May 2020 (UTC)
Can we be a little more specific what "relevant to notability" means in regards previous nationalities?
The article for Nina Dobrev has been frequently a site for edit warring over her nationality per MOS:ETHNICITY. She was born in Bulgaria but moved to Canada at age 2 and started her career in Canada (and Canada only). The consensus is that she should be listed as "Canadian actress and model," but edit warrer's in the past have tried to claim that it should be "Bulgarian-Canadian" just because she has fans in Bulgaria or is quoted to be "proud to be Bulgarian. (See past talk threads)
Should MOS:ETHNICITY define what "previous nationalities should not be listed unless they are relevant to notability" a little better? Maybe clarify that the countries/nationalities should only be listed if it's where the person started their career?
(I apologize if this is a dumb question, a lot of BLP are becoming more like this, and I wondered if a change in wording would help.) Kay girl 97 (talk) 05:03, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- This is a section of MOS that has a range of interpretations, and comes up frequently in Balkans bios. There is currently a bit of a ding-dong going on at Talk:Ante Pavelić about it and there has been an interminable one at Talk:Nikola Tesla. If we could come up with a bit more clarity it might help. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:37, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- Is the disagreement over the MOS? Or is it editors who don't know about the prior consensus or the MOS? Updating the MOS won't help those cases.—Bagumba (talk) 09:05, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
- The MOS says country of citizenship should be listed, but "previous nationalities or the place of birth should not." This is somewhat confusing because the place of birth is often a country of (continuing, not "previous") citizenship. Perhaps the second section can be amended to "...previous nationalities, dual nationalities, or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." GreatCaesarsGhost 00:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- In my experience, this is particularly problematic when the person was born in Austria-Hungary (where most bio articles state ethnic group rather than saying they were Austro-Hungarian) or Yugoslavia (where many bio articles also emphasise ethnicity), or any other empire or country that became defunct or changed during their lifetime. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- A note would help a lot, clarifying notable ethnicity, dual citizenships, cases of former countries, entities that are/were not independent (vassal kingdoms, autonomous duchies, tributary states...).
- There's a similar guideline, MOS:IDENTITY, which gives preference to what the majority of sources say on someone's identity:
- "When there is a discrepancy between the term most commonly used by reliable sources for a person or group and the term that person or group uses for themselves, use the term that is most commonly used by recent reliable sources. If it is unclear which is most used, use the term that the person or group uses."
- This is a clearer guideline than MOS:ETHNICITY, and such a wording could work better in cases where the majority of sources label a person in a way that is not in accordance to the contemporary citizenship/nationality or even the self-described ethnicity of a person. Tezwoo (talk) 16:48, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- In my experience, this is particularly problematic when the person was born in Austria-Hungary (where most bio articles state ethnic group rather than saying they were Austro-Hungarian) or Yugoslavia (where many bio articles also emphasise ethnicity), or any other empire or country that became defunct or changed during their lifetime. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:58, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- The MOS says country of citizenship should be listed, but "previous nationalities or the place of birth should not." This is somewhat confusing because the place of birth is often a country of (continuing, not "previous") citizenship. Perhaps the second section can be amended to "...previous nationalities, dual nationalities, or the place of birth should not be mentioned in the lead unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." GreatCaesarsGhost 00:09, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
Question about two people with the same surname in an article
Per MOS:SURNAME:
After the initial mention, a person should generally be referred to by surname only
There are two brothers in the band Radiohead - Jonny Greenwood and Colin Greenwood. So we can't write "Greenwood". To avoid confusion, should the article always write out the names Jonny Greenwood and Colin Greenwood in full, or should we use their given names? Could this guidance be included in the MOS? Popcornfud (talk) 11:12, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's in a follow-on section: MOS:SAMESURNAME. DrKay (talk) 12:18, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- DrKay, damn, clear as day. I can't read today, obviously. Thanks very much. Popcornfud (talk) 12:21, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- ... So just to clarify, the following would be correct, from the Radiohead article lead?
Radiohead are an English rock band formed in Abingdon, Oxfordshire, in 1985. The band consists of Thom Yorke (vocals, guitar, piano, keyboards), brothers Jonny Greenwood (lead guitar, keyboards, other instruments) and Colin Greenwood (bass), Ed O'Brien (guitar, backing vocals) and Philip Selway (drums, percussion).
- Then a couple of hundred words later:
Their eighth album, The King of Limbs (2011), an exploration of rhythm, was developed using extensive looping and sampling. A Moon Shaped Pool (2016) prominently featured Jonny's orchestral arrangements. Jonny, Yorke, Selway, and O'Brien have released solo albums.
- I'm a little unsure because 1) it means mixing given and surnames in the same sentences and 2) the MOS:SAMESURNAME only gives examples where the names are mentioned in close proximity. In the Radiohead article, we could go for entire sections without mentioning either Greenwood brother. Is that OK? Just checking before I go ahead and make the change. Popcornfud (talk) 12:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- In my opinion, no. I've just skimmed the article and to me it reads fine as it is - except for one mention of an unqualified Greenwood in the section 1995–1998:_OK_Computer_and_critical_acclaim. The most important aspect is to retain clarity. Jonny G. gets far more mentions than his brother, and in the paragraphs where he is mentioned more than once, it's clear that subsequent references to 'Greenwood' refer to him, not Colin. It would seem odd to refer to him as 'Jonny' when other people are referred to by surname or full name. —SMALLJIM 13:27, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
- DrKay, damn, clear as day. I can't read today, obviously. Thanks very much. Popcornfud (talk) 12:21, 11 June 2020 (UTC)
RfC on whether MOS:ETHNICITY should be ignored or not for Nikola Tesla
Talk:Nikola_Tesla/Nationality_and_ethnicity#RfC:_Should_ethnicity_be_removed_from_the_lead? Notrium (talk) 17:30, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Clarification needed regarding the use of nationality in lead in case of Austria-Hungary
Currently it is recommended that nationality should be noted in the lead, but this makes for a conundrum in the case of Austria-Hungary.
The issue is this: there was no such thing as Austro-Hungarian citizenship, i.e. the "parts" had completely autonomous citizenship authority. Thus if we followed the MOS, we would never say "Austro-Hungarian" in the lead, but rather use either "Austrian" or "Hungarian", it seems.
Thus some clarification in MOS:ETHNICITY is needed. Notrium (talk) 12:56, 15 June 2020 (UTC)
How to refer to popes, cardinals, and bishops in running text
How should popes, cardinals, and bishops be referred to in running text? Is "Pope" or "Cardinal" or "Bishop" more akin to a job title or an honorific? For example, should we say "Cardinal Soane Mafi," or "Soane Mafi, the bishop of Tonga?" --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 13:53, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- Whatever makes the most sense in the context. These are different roles. Don't use "Cardinal" simply as an honorific. It's a relevant role in the context of Rome and the Pope and the College of Cardinals and duties/actions performed abroad that pertain directly to that role. But in the context of oversight of the bishopric of Tonga, the other title is more pertinent. It would probably be fine in his lead sentence to use Cardinal Soane Mafi, the bishop of Tonga". But thereafter "Mafi" for the most part (unless Tongans use reverse name order; I have not checked). [Small, weird world. Tonga is one of the most obscure nations to most people, yet around 1987 I wrote a letter to a priest there to ask about the status of his ongoing efforts to translate or better-translate the bible into the local language (my memory on this is a bit crusty). In 15-ish years of working on WP, I don't think I've made any edits whatsoever about Tonga until now, and it's about Catholic priests in Tonga again. What're the odds?] — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 17:21, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- SMcCandlish, What an odd coincidence. To use your example, which do you think would be better form, assuming it was the first mention of his name in a non-biographical article: 1) Cardinal Soane Mafi spoke about the ongoing efforts to translate the Bible into the Tongan language, or 2) Soane Mafi, bishop of Tonga, spoke about the ongoing efforts to translate the Bible into the Tongan language? -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 17:38, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- For first mention "Cardinal Soane Mafi, bishop of Tonga" explains who he is, where he's based, and suggests possible importance/responsibility in Curial congregations, all w/o having to click on a blue link. Manannan67 (talk) 18:41, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yep. To address Slugger's followup question about mid-article usage, using his hypothetical of reporting on Mafi's support of the translation effort: I still think it would be contextual. Was it a statement made in Tonga to the Tongan press (or a BBC journalist visiting Tonga or calling him in Tonga, or something to this effect)? Or was it instead made in/from Rome as a matter of cardinal or even papal concern? Was he focused on Tonga and its culture, and the importance of preserving the language and reducing lingering negative effects of European colonialism and cultural imperialism while retaining and strengthening Tongans' bond with the Good Book which also just happens to be from the Northern Hemisphere? Or was it about the Roman Catholic Church's millennia-running mission to bring the Bible and Jesus to the entire world, with him focusing on papal urging and church doctrine about bringing everyone possible to the Kingdom of God? [I'm probably using some of these phrases wrong; I'm not religious myself.]
If this were in an article on Tonga or on Bible translations, it might be reasonable to ID him at first appearance as "Cardinal Soane Mafi, the bishop of Tonga", especially if his contextual positioning isn't perfectly clear from the sources; it is certainly relevant that the bishop of Tonga is [in our hypothetical, anyway] supportive of this (instead of forcing everyone to learn English or Latin or whatever), but it might also be relevant to readers that someone that high in the church hierarchy is taking a keen interest in this, in addition to it being about his home turf. I think what we don't want to see is a bunch of "Cardinal Mafi said ...", "Also, according to Cardinal Mafi ...", "... additional funding for the project sought by Cardinal Mafi ...", etc. That's like injecting gratuitous "Prof." or "Rev./Revd" or "Dr[.]" honorifics. Or "Bishop" ones. I guess the short version is treat "Cardinal" the same way we'd treat a prepended "Bishop" (something to use only when necessary to make it clear to the reader what the person's role and authority are, why the person matters for whatever we're writing about), and treat the postfixed "the bishop of Tonga" as simply descriptive.
To re-generalize, consider a hip-hop star who is now also the CEO of a notable record company she founded. Two roles. We wouldn't write of her as the CEO in the context of her stage show; and also not as the hip-hop group's co-leader (with her sister) in the context of managing the label business. If a title pertains to a role it should generally stay there; she's CEO of the label, not the band. Real-world example: Christopher Guest is notable as an actor-director and has arguably also become notable as a British peer and [formerly] a member of the House of Lords. In his Hollywood life (the vast majority of his notability and our material on him and source coverage about him), his "Lord" honorific and his "baron" (specifically, 5th baron Haden-Guest) title do not pertain, and are not used. But they could be relevant in a list of members of the House of Lords, in recording him as Baron Haden-Guest in a summary of parliamentary votes on something, or conceivably with "Lord" in mid-sentence if it were necessary to distinguish him as an HoL member from someone else in the same sentence who was a House of Commons member, though of course it would be much better to just rewrite. I've seen British press in the relevant period refer to him as Baron or Lord Christopher Haden-Guest in the parliamentary context, and Christoper Guest in the film context (I think I might once have seen something like "Lord Christopher Guest", but it's not clear that would even be proper address, as it's confusing a legal name with a professional name, like referring to Sean Combs as "Puff Combs" or "Sean Diddy". Anyway, [Haden-]Guest's case is not a perfect comparison to the Cardinal...bishop situation, since "Lord" is a rather empty and generic title used for different ranks and types of peers, primarily intended as a respect marker, while a cardinal has a much more specific role (even a bishop does, though perhaps it's kinda-sorta comparable to being a parliamentarian in being a "job").
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 19:22, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yep. To address Slugger's followup question about mid-article usage, using his hypothetical of reporting on Mafi's support of the translation effort: I still think it would be contextual. Was it a statement made in Tonga to the Tongan press (or a BBC journalist visiting Tonga or calling him in Tonga, or something to this effect)? Or was it instead made in/from Rome as a matter of cardinal or even papal concern? Was he focused on Tonga and its culture, and the importance of preserving the language and reducing lingering negative effects of European colonialism and cultural imperialism while retaining and strengthening Tongans' bond with the Good Book which also just happens to be from the Northern Hemisphere? Or was it about the Roman Catholic Church's millennia-running mission to bring the Bible and Jesus to the entire world, with him focusing on papal urging and church doctrine about bringing everyone possible to the Kingdom of God? [I'm probably using some of these phrases wrong; I'm not religious myself.]
- I know AlmostFrancis has opinions about this, so he may wish to opine as well. --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 19:42, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- My recommendation would be to follow a similar pattern used in MOS:LDS, which allows for ecclesiastical titles for leaders in running text only in the lede and last name thereafter, even for religious leaders that would be of similar hierarchical level to Cardinals. In the example given, the possibilities (outside of the lede) would be "...the bishop of Tonga, Soane Mafi,...", "Soan, Bishop of Mafi", or "the cardinal, Soane Mafi,...". The second I admit is an ambiguous case - without a definite or indefinite article it becomes a formal title of position, as opposed to simply a prepended honorific title, and IMO should be capitalized. --FyzixFighter (talk) 19:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- FyzixFighter, Thanks for the link. I can't find any explanation on the talk page archives why it should only be in the lede, though. If Mafi only appears once or twice in the latter half of an article, he's not likely to appear in the lede. Might still be important to note that he's a cardinal, though. There's also the case of someone like Michael Czerny, who isn't even a bishop. We could use "Cardinal Michael Czerny," or his job title, "Michael Czerny, the under-secretary of the Migrants and Refugees Section of the Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development." One of them is a little more concise than the other. -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 20:17, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- Yeah, I'm not sure where the lede only guidance came from. Even in the lede, most LDS-related titles get removed pretty quickly. In the case of Michael Czerny, my preference would be to use "...the cardinal Michael Czerny" or your latter example. I strongly dislike having one rule for LDS ecclesiastical leaders and another for Catholic ecclesiastical leaders. If we allow prepended clergy honorific titles, like "Cardinal" or "Bishop", for the Catholic Church, then we should allow similar titles for other religions IMO. I also think lower hierarchical titles like "Father", "Friar", "Brother", or "Monsignor" should be removed or replaced with "...the priest" or similar based on the same argument of equal treatment. --FyzixFighter (talk) 21:37, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- The "lede only" caveat seems to have introduced here by SMcCandlish, so he might be able shed light on the rationale. --FyzixFighter (talk) 21:43, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- FyzixFighter, I very much agree that it should be as standardized as possible across religions. -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 00:59, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- Re 'I admit ["Bishop of Tonga Soane Mafi"] is an ambiguous case - without a definite or indefinite article it becomes a formal title of position, as opposed to simply a[n ap]pended honorific title, and IMO should be capitalized.' – Nope; it's a separate, parenthetical, optional descriptive clause separated from the name; it's of the same form as "J. K. Rowling, author of the Harry Potter book series, is ...". The case for capitalizing that exact "[b|B]ishop of Tonga" title is when it is directly prefixed to the name: "According to Bishop of Tonga Soane Mafi, ...". But this is poor writing in an en.wp context, because the average reader can't parse it with certainty (doesn't know what Tonga is, doesn't recognize Soane in particular as a forename, nor Mafi as a surname). It's structurally but not interpretationally equivalent to "Prime Minister of Australia Scott Morris", every element of which is easily and correctly parseable by our typical reader. PS: I corrected the example to "Bishop of Tonga Soane Mafi"; your original post had some elements jumbled, misspelled, or missing ("Soan, Bishop of Mafi"). I don't mean that as a criticism (I am the typo emperor!), just being clear that I've altered the quoted material for clarity. However, I think it highlights what I'm saying here: for most of us at en.wp, the name elements "Soan[e]", "Tonga", and "Mafi" are opaque text strings, or verging on it. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 03:12, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
- FyzixFighter, Thanks for the link. I can't find any explanation on the talk page archives why it should only be in the lede, though. If Mafi only appears once or twice in the latter half of an article, he's not likely to appear in the lede. Might still be important to note that he's a cardinal, though. There's also the case of someone like Michael Czerny, who isn't even a bishop. We could use "Cardinal Michael Czerny," or his job title, "Michael Czerny, the under-secretary of the Migrants and Refugees Section of the Dicastery for Promoting Integral Human Development." One of them is a little more concise than the other. -- Slugger O'Toole (talk) 20:17, 16 June 2020 (UTC)
- Proposal: Taking my cue from MOS:LDS, I propose that we add a new subsection 3.1.2 titled "Ecclesiastical titles." The content would be as follows:
- Do not use ecclesiastical titles such as "Elder," "Pope," "Sister," or "Bishop" when referring to leaders of a church, except at first occurrence of the name and when the context provided by the title is useful. After the first occurrence, the subject's surname is sufficient and conforms to general encyclopedic style. For example, write "Elder McConkie published a book entitled Mormon Doctrine..." at the first instance his name, but "McConkie published a book entitled Mormon Doctrine..." for subsequent appearances.
- What do others think? --Slugger O'Toole (talk) 17:24, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
- I reverted. Didn't even know this was an RfC. I'm not conformtable with this being added with no clear consensus reflected in this section. The RfC hasn't even run its course yet. The top of the guideline tells us, "Any substantive edit to this page should reflect consensus." I'll leave note at WP:Village pump (policy) about this RfC for more opinions. Flyer22 Frozen (talk) 03:07, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
Is this edit MOS-compliant?
Hi MOSsers,
In this edit, the full birth name of the subject of a biography is set in bold on its appearance in the second section; is this MOS-compliant? (There is no redirect from the birth name to the title of the article. The same editor makes a large number of similar edits with the same edit summary "Birth name underlined.")
Thanks, JBL (talk) 18:26, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
Honorific prefixes
In articles about Commonwealth officials, "honourable" and similar honorifics typically are shown in the info-box above the subject's name. This is not typically done for U.S. officials. The difference in practice probably results from the greater frequency of use of the honorifics in reliable sources in Commonwealth nations than the U.S. Should we change the guideline to reflect this usage? TFD (talk) 17:31, 24 June 2020 (UTC)