UseTheCommandLine (talk | contribs) →Assistance with WP:ALLEGE: new section |
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::I agree that the italic headings seem reasonable for titles that would be italicized in the the text. Thanks for working on the caps errors. I, too, find that a glace at the TOC usually gives a good indication of whether an article has been gone over by someone who knows about [[MOS:CAPS]] or not. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 22:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC) |
::I agree that the italic headings seem reasonable for titles that would be italicized in the the text. Thanks for working on the caps errors. I, too, find that a glace at the TOC usually gives a good indication of whether an article has been gone over by someone who knows about [[MOS:CAPS]] or not. [[User:Dicklyon|Dicklyon]] ([[User talk:Dicklyon|talk]]) 22:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC) |
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== Assistance with WP:ALLEGE == |
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Hi, |
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I am having a discussion about the meaning of WP:ALLEGE at [[Talk:White privilege]]. The examples given in the policy refer to "individuals accused of crimes" but another editor maintains that it may also refer to ethnic groups, in keeping with their edits to the [[White privilege]] article. |
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Additional context is needed, as I believe that the addition of "alleged" to the lede paragraph of the article unnecessarily implies that ideas central to critical race theory (which the article is about) are somehow illegitimate. |
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Thanks in advance. |
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[[User:UseTheCommandLine|UseTheCommandLine]] ([[User talk:UseTheCommandLine|talk]]) 08:25, 1 November 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 08:25, 1 November 2012
Three corrections
Please comment if there are any questions. Apteva (talk) 19:11, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
It appears that the example "the Uganda–Tanzania War; the Roman–Syrian War; the east–west runway; the Lincoln–Douglas debates; a carbon–carbon bond" while not commenting that it is a little long (do we really need so many examples?), is in need of two corrections; in the first example, "the Uganda–Tanzania War", war should not be capitalized (see google book search), and it should be "but not the Roman–Syrian War (as Roman-Syrian War is a proper name)". The article at Uganda–Tanzania War should also be moved, to Uganda–Tanzania war, and if it is a proper name, a better example used, and it be moved to Uganda-Tanzania War. (already moved) [and now it needs to be moved, but there is an RM to decide that...] Apteva (talk) 23:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
- Comment. I have reverted Apteva's undiscussed move of Uganda–Tanzania War, which was apparently done to prove a point here and not in the interest of the article itself.
This section attracted no comment before Apteva elevated it to an RFC, probably because Apteva is pushing on proper names, en dashes, and hyphens at several forums at the same time – including an RM, now closed as not moved, for the long-settled Mexican–American War. I have explicitly said, on this talkpage and elsewhere, that general issues with WP:MOS guidelines should be raised as general issues, right here. Not at several locations, and not as particular sparring points. It seems to me that this RFC is yet another waste of time. I comment on one detail only: yes, obviously many examples are needed in the guideline. Even more than we have now, perhaps. Some editors are still refusing to accept the principle it is based on as consensual; and Apteva, for example, is playing hard by appeal to inconsequential differences among the present examples. If any element of the long and meticulous community consultation on dashes in 2011 needs review, let it be done in an orderly and informed way. Some recommended background reading for those interested: the article Proper noun, most of which is now accurate. (It needs a move to Proper name.)
NoeticaTea? 21:48, 7 October 2012 (UTC)- It was a correct move. Uganda–Tanzania war is not a proper noun and is not capitalized. Nor was it undiscussed. The date and time in the above discussion shows that it was pointed out on September 27 that it should be moved, and that it was not moved until October 5 (and a check of the edit history will show that I noted that it had been moved when I opened the RfC on October 7). Clearly plenty of time and some for anyone to disagree with the proposal. Seeing none, I took it as approval, not an unusual response. Should an RM to move proper noun come to my attention I would object. And I think that would be the consensus. The word phrase "proper noun" did not enter use until about 1890. The dictionary, if it contains "proper name", defines it as proper noun. The two terms are interchangeable. I have called for an RfC because I am not going to get into an edit war over the Revert. In the BRD cycle, after R comes D. There had been no response, so I am asking for a response. I do not believe that a review of a clearly embarrassing discussion needs to be reviewed. Proper names use hyphens and our MOS says so. 10,000 books use a hyphen and maybe a 100 use something else. Case closed. I would like to remind everyone to focus on the issue, not the editor, though. WP is never an authority on anything, proper nouns included. WP articles can never be used as a RS. Apteva (talk) 02:40, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- These topics have already been the focus of much long and pointless argumentation that wasted the time of multiple editors, time that could have been spent elsewhere, like in creating content. I don't understand the point of reopening these discussions so soon after they have finally and painfully been settled by consensus. --Neotarf (talk) 08:03, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- Congratulations to Noetica, the proper noun article has just been cited by no less an authority than Mark Liberman at Language Log. [1] --Neotarf (talk) 08:09, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
- There are still improvements that are needed - fix the misleading and incorrect examples. If someone wants to argue that proper nouns are not capitalized or that sentences do not need periods, not questions of course, then certainly their time is better spent elsewhere, but if someone insists that Roman-Syrian War is spelled with an endash they will have a very hard time supporting that premise. Is War capitalized in "Uganda-Tanzania War"? Possibly, but if it is the punctuation is a hyphen and not an appropriate example of where to use an endash. If war is not capitalized, Uganda–Tanzania war is an example of where an endash is used, and the capitalization needs to be fixed. In both cases the current article needs to be moved - either to Uganda-Tanzania War or to Uganda–Tanzania war. There are always people who misspell things, and use incorrect punctuation, and that is why there is an edit tab and a move option. Apteva (talk) 03:49, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
Comet Hale-Bopp
This example: "Comet Hale–Bopp or just Hale–Bopp (discovered by Hale and Bopp)" needs to be removed because used either with or without the word "Comet" this is still a proper noun and therefore uses a hyphen, as supported by the thousands of reliable sources that use this punctuation. According to Google Books there are 31,900 sources, the overwhelming majority of which use a hyphen. It is not even close. Apteva (talk) 22:47, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Many of those reliable sources do use the en dash, which confirms that it is simply a styling choice. The fact that many sources have a style that substitutes hyphens in the traditional role of the en dash, and that the Google books OCR can't tell the difference, does not mean that WP needs to adopt that style. There's nothing special or unique about Hale–Bopp here. Your concept of "proper noun, therefore hyphen" is unsupportable hallucination. Dicklyon (talk) 01:01, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Not nonsense at all. There are some sources that do use en dash, but if there were many, as in many more than use hyphen, then statistically at least one would have appeared in the first ten. Out of the first 100 how many use hyphen? Out of the first 1,000 how many? Google books has 32,900 to look through. I strongly disagree with the supposition that an OCR can not tell the difference as there are a huge number of occurrences in google books of both endashes where they are appropriate and em dashes where they are appropriate. While it is far easier to do a text search, I am completely confident in my assessment that there are no endashes in the first 10 results that I obtained. As was pointed out before, any suggestion of "many" needs to also include "out of how many", as saying there are 432 examples of using Hale-Bopp with an endash sounds impressive until you find out, say, that that was out of 32,000, with 29,000 using a hyphen and 3,000 using a space, just as a made up example. Proper noun hyphen is not fiction. It is in our MOS and I really have yet to see any example of a proper noun that does not use a hyphen. I am not saying they do not exist. I can certainly imagine that if someone named Hale-Bopp and someone named Lennard-Jones discovered a comet it could be called the "Hale-Bopp–Lennard-Jones Comet, to distinguish between one discovered by Hale and someone named Bopp-Lennard-Jones, or by one person named Hale-Bopp-Lennard and one named Jones. Normally exceptions to rules are pretty easy to find. It is academic to find them, but still interesting, and I really have not seen one. One editor perhaps looked for examples of endashes in WP article titles and came up with two that are not proper nouns and two that are using incorrect punctuation on WP. Since when has WP ever been considered a reliable source? Apteva (talk) 04:27, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Nonsense. Several of them DO in fact appear in the first page of 10 hits on Google Book Search (with previews). You need to actually look at the previews to see how they are styled, as the OCR does not distinguish hyphen from en dash usually (and sometimes it sees en dashes as em dashes—I was going to say like this one, but it turns out that one really did get typeset with an em dash, due to some amateur typographer's blunder). If en dashes do show up sometimes in snippets, in probably from books that they got electronically, as with this one, where you can tell they got it electronically because if you zoom way in the letters aren't blurry or pixelated; they're being rendered from text. The same effect is often seen in Google Scholar, where papers with en dashes often show up as hyphen, but not always; in spite of that, nearly half show up on the first scholar results page with en dash. It's not an usual style like you're making it out to be. Dicklyon (talk) 05:33, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Not nonsense at all. There are some sources that do use en dash, but if there were many, as in many more than use hyphen, then statistically at least one would have appeared in the first ten. Out of the first 100 how many use hyphen? Out of the first 1,000 how many? Google books has 32,900 to look through. I strongly disagree with the supposition that an OCR can not tell the difference as there are a huge number of occurrences in google books of both endashes where they are appropriate and em dashes where they are appropriate. While it is far easier to do a text search, I am completely confident in my assessment that there are no endashes in the first 10 results that I obtained. As was pointed out before, any suggestion of "many" needs to also include "out of how many", as saying there are 432 examples of using Hale-Bopp with an endash sounds impressive until you find out, say, that that was out of 32,000, with 29,000 using a hyphen and 3,000 using a space, just as a made up example. Proper noun hyphen is not fiction. It is in our MOS and I really have yet to see any example of a proper noun that does not use a hyphen. I am not saying they do not exist. I can certainly imagine that if someone named Hale-Bopp and someone named Lennard-Jones discovered a comet it could be called the "Hale-Bopp–Lennard-Jones Comet, to distinguish between one discovered by Hale and someone named Bopp-Lennard-Jones, or by one person named Hale-Bopp-Lennard and one named Jones. Normally exceptions to rules are pretty easy to find. It is academic to find them, but still interesting, and I really have not seen one. One editor perhaps looked for examples of endashes in WP article titles and came up with two that are not proper nouns and two that are using incorrect punctuation on WP. Since when has WP ever been considered a reliable source? Apteva (talk) 04:27, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
For now I have changed "Comet" to comet, per p. 48 of the New Oxford Dictionary for Scientific Writers and Editors, and per our article on the comet, which does not capitalize the word comet - hence an endash is correct as it is not treated as a proper noun. There is an open RM to move the page to Comet Hale-Bopp, treating it as a proper noun. Sources clearly favor proper noun status. Halley's comet, on the other hand, does not favor proper noun status and can also be corrected. Apteva (talk) 16:28, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please see WP:Policies and guidelines#Not part of the encyclopedia: "The policies, guidelines, and process pages themselves are not part of the encyclopedia proper. Consequently, they do not generally need to conform with the content standards. It is therefore not necessary to provide reliable sources to verify Wikipedia's administrative pages, or to phrase Wikipedia procedures or principles in a neutral manner, or to cite an outside authority in determining Wikipedia's editorial practices. Instead, the content of these pages is controlled by community-wide consensus, and the style should emphasize clarity, directness, and usefulness to other editors."
- The "New Oxford Dictionary for Scientific Writers and Editors" does not have any authority over Wikipedia. The Wikipedia house style for comets is here: WP:Naming conventions (astronomical objects)#Comets.
- --Neotarf (talk) 18:22, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. The name we have chosen is "comet" not "Comet". Using "Comet" gives it proper noun status, and it becomes Comet Hale-Bopp, with a hyphen, not an endash. the section referenced says to use the common name, and if none, give it proper noun status (how generous). The example, Comet Hyakutake, is littered with references that use comet and ones that use Comet. Apteva (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- IMHO, recalling high school grammar classes might be of help here. Is the word "comet" a part of the name, or it just reiterates what the name is about? In other words, can we leave "comet" out without loss of meaning? Does the (c/C)omet Halley-Bopp resemble the "New York Times" newspaper and a McDonald's restaurant, or, rather, The Wall Street Journal and the White House?
- To my feeling, that particular space object is called Halley's Comet, and another one is called Hale-Bopp Comet. Since the names of space objects (planets, stars, comets, galaxies, constellations, etc.) are always capitalised (e.g., Mars, Jupiter, Neptune, Aldebaran, Vega, Milky Way, Sun, etc., etc.) , the word "comet" should also be capitalised in all the instances, since it is an inseparable part of that object's name. Rules as to dash/hyphen should apply accordingly. kashmiri 19:52, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Of course Comet Hale-Bopp (however hyphenated) is a proper noun. All names are proper nouns. Some sources may choose not to capitalize it; that's a style decision (a poor one in my view, but style rather than grammar). But even in those sources, it's still a proper noun — that's a grammatical rather than stylistic category. --Trovatore (talk) 20:29, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- That may be obvious to any number of people, but it is not obvious to the people who write articles about the comet, or Articles as in scientific articles published elsewhere.[2] In both cases the spelling of the dictionary is used. Why would we write a style guide that no one was using? Style guides should follow what we are doing, not make up rules that no one uses. I suggest that Comet should be changed to comet in Celestial bodies to agree with common use. We use sun and moon when 99.9+% (probably a lot more 9s for sun than moon) of the time we actually mean Sun and Moon, and it is ridiculous to capitalize it, and not done in common practice. Our style guides need to follow common practice, not introduce peculiarities. Apteva (talk) 21:04, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Your reference to "common use" seems misguided: Sun and Moon are always capitalised when used as names of celestial bodies (i.e., not in sun lotion, sunbathing, moonlight, etc.); so are Earth, Mercury, etc. As to your removal of capitalisation in "Comet", I would thus suggest you refrain from making edits that deliberately violate WP:MoS. Any such changes should be reverted. kashmiri 21:44, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Speaking only for myself, I am not making any edits that violate the MOS. The MOS says that proper names use hyphens, so I am moving articles that are proper nouns and use an endash, like, for example, Mexican-American War and Spanish-American War. Doing that brings them into compliance with the MOS. I am removing the examples in the MOS that are not in compliance with the MOS. The MOS says that proper nouns use hyphens, and has three examples that are proper nouns yet use an endash. One of them, comet Hale–Bopp, is not capitalized in our article, is not capitalized in a respected dictionary, and yet is capitalized as an example in our MOS. What's up with that? What I do need to do, though, is politely ask editors to read the section of the MOS on hyphens and note that there actually are places they are used - like in proper nouns. We all need to get on the same page here though, and if someone can show me 10,000 books that use an endash in Mexican-American War, and that there are less than use a hyphen, by all means that is what we also should use. But no matter how some editors came to the conclusion that Mexican-American War should have been spelled with an endash so they are going to use one, if in fact that is not a reasonable decision, it needs to be re-opened. In case no one has noticed, out of 4 million articles, there are some that have errors, and that is where I would prefer to spend my time. Fixing errors - like the spelling of Mexican-American War. Apteva (talk) 02:27, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- A Google Books search shows about 50% capitalize "Comet". Art LaPella (talk) 23:57, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- True. But how many dictionaries capitalize Halley's comet or comet Hale–Bopp? Apteva (talk) 02:27, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Most online dictionaries on the OneLook list capitalize the "C". Some capitalize it inconsistently. None on my list uncapitalize it consistently, although Dictionary.com's Halley's comet definition comes closest. Art LaPella (talk) 04:51, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- But now I found two uncapitalizers elsewhere. Art LaPella (talk) 05:07, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- True. But how many dictionaries capitalize Halley's comet or comet Hale–Bopp? Apteva (talk) 02:27, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- Your reference to "common use" seems misguided: Sun and Moon are always capitalised when used as names of celestial bodies (i.e., not in sun lotion, sunbathing, moonlight, etc.); so are Earth, Mercury, etc. As to your removal of capitalisation in "Comet", I would thus suggest you refrain from making edits that deliberately violate WP:MoS. Any such changes should be reverted. kashmiri 21:44, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- That may be obvious to any number of people, but it is not obvious to the people who write articles about the comet, or Articles as in scientific articles published elsewhere.[2] In both cases the spelling of the dictionary is used. Why would we write a style guide that no one was using? Style guides should follow what we are doing, not make up rules that no one uses. I suggest that Comet should be changed to comet in Celestial bodies to agree with common use. We use sun and moon when 99.9+% (probably a lot more 9s for sun than moon) of the time we actually mean Sun and Moon, and it is ridiculous to capitalize it, and not done in common practice. Our style guides need to follow common practice, not introduce peculiarities. Apteva (talk) 21:04, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Of course Comet Hale-Bopp (however hyphenated) is a proper noun. All names are proper nouns. Some sources may choose not to capitalize it; that's a style decision (a poor one in my view, but style rather than grammar). But even in those sources, it's still a proper noun — that's a grammatical rather than stylistic category. --Trovatore (talk) 20:29, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Irrelevant. The name we have chosen is "comet" not "Comet". Using "Comet" gives it proper noun status, and it becomes Comet Hale-Bopp, with a hyphen, not an endash. the section referenced says to use the common name, and if none, give it proper noun status (how generous). The example, Comet Hyakutake, is littered with references that use comet and ones that use Comet. Apteva (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
The dictionary link for Comet Hale-Bopp is amusing - links to WP with a hyphen, even though the article uses an endash, as of 2011 - "05:05, 26 January 2011 CWenger (talk | contribs) . . (31 bytes) (+31) . . (moved Comet Hale-Bopp to Comet Hale–Bopp: MOS:ENDASH #1, comet discovered by Hale and Bopp)".
We found 3 dictionaries with English definitions that include the word comet Hale-Bopp: Click on the first link on a line below to go directly to a page where "comet Hale-Bopp" is defined.
General dictionaries General (1 matching dictionary)
- Comet Hale-Bopp: Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia [home, info]
Computing dictionaries Computing (1 matching dictionary)
- Comet Hale-Bopp, Hale-Bopp, Comet: Encyclopedia [home, info]
Slang dictionaries Slang (1 matching dictionary)
- Comet Hale-Bopp: Urban Dictionary [home, info]
I checked to see if it was just copying the punctuation used in the search entry, and replaced the hyphen with an endash and got:
Sorry, no dictionaries indexed in the selected category contain the exact phrase comet Hale–Bopp. Apteva (talk) 15:59, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- You might want to check s.t. other than a dict, such as Cometary Science after Hale–Bopp (Böhnhardt, Combi, Kidger, & Schulz, eds, Springer 2003), which uses the en dash in numerous papers and research notes, such as The 1995–2002 Long-Term Monitoring of Comet C/1995 O1 (Hale–Bopp) at Radio Wavelength; Large-Scale Structures in Comet Hale–Bopp; Modelling of Shape Changes of the Nuclei of Comets C/1995 O1 Hale–Bopp and 46P/Wirtanen Caused by Water Ice Sublimation; Observations of Rotating Jets of Carbon Monoxide in Comet Hale–Bopp with the IRAM Interferometer; From Hale–Bopp's Activity to Properties of its Nucleus; The Shadow of Comet Hale–Bopp in Lyman–Alpha, 73P/Schwassmann–Wachmann 3 – One Orbit after Break-Up; Nitrogen Sulfide in Comets Hyakutake (C/1996 B2) and Hale–Bopp (C/1995 O1), etc. These are proceedings of the International Astronomical Union (IAU) Colloquium No. 186 "Cometary Science after Hale–Bopp" (Tenerife, Jan. 2002), which followed the First International Conference on Comet Hale–Bopp in Jan. 1998. There are other, similar uses, such as 4015/Wilson–Harrington, 55P/Tempel–Tuttle, the Kuiper–Edgeworth (K–E) belt, the Hertz–Knudsen relationship, and the Stefan–Boltzmann constant. They even use the dash for Hale–Bopp in their references, though I suspect that if we followed up, we'd find that many were published with a hyphen. That is, they punctuate according to their in-house MOS, which is s.t. people here have been arguing we're not allowed to do (esp. in article titles, claiming it violates COMMONNAME). — kwami (talk) 18:19, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Comment. Hale-Bopp carries a hyphen because the IAU says that it's spelled with a hyphen. Hyphenated surnames have the hyphen replaced with a space, like Singer Brewster, discovered by Singer-Brewster, or cut in half, like Bally-Clayton (
1968dC/1968 Q1), discovered by Bally-Urban and Clayton. Some people had already moved a couple of featured comet articles via RM. Kwami (who is posting right above me by pure chance) then moved dozens of comet articles to dashed articles, then proposed "Hale-Bopp" for the MOS draft as an example of a dash names. He didn't mention that all comet articles were hyphenated only a few weeks ago, or that he had moved dozens of himself a couple of days ago without discussion. Months later I realized the problem and I tried to correct it, but the usual suspects stonewalled the change. Now Kwami has been desyosped for making massive moves against consensus. Maybe it would be time to discuss comet hyphens again..... Or should I wait until Noetica is topic banned for stonewalling and edit warring? --Enric Naval (talk) 18:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- And Enric Naval posts pictures of cats he's killed on his user page. If you can provide a source for the IAU rule, great, but that would simply be their in-house style. We don't copy the in-house styles of our sources any more than they do, as the result would be chaotic. Punctuation varies from source to source, and is even adapted in references and quotations.
- The IAU convention, BTW, is similar to typewriter hyphenation. It's because astronomers send the IAU telegrams of their discoveries, and telegrams can't handle dashes. — kwami (talk) 19:14, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- The IAU has a comet naming guideline, not a style guideline. It's the only body that can name comets, and its naming decisions are internationally accepted. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:29, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Valuable link. Although I can't help an impression that the document deals more with naming than with typography. I wouldn't be surprised if its authors did not understand a difference between a hyphen and a dash. Astronomers hardly ever are typesetters... kashmiri 12:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- What it says is that spaces or hyphens are used: "each individual name is to be separated by a hyphen", and it is recommended that no more than two names be included. If someone has a hyphenated name that hyphen is replaced with a space or one of the two names only used. So that eliminates the ambiguity of Hale-Lennard-Jones - it would be either Hale-Lennard Jones or Hale-Lennard or Hale-Jones. Apteva (talk) 14:54, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- Valuable link. Although I can't help an impression that the document deals more with naming than with typography. I wouldn't be surprised if its authors did not understand a difference between a hyphen and a dash. Astronomers hardly ever are typesetters... kashmiri 12:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- And the comet names were always announced in circulars, printed in paper, with diacritics, umlauts, scientific symbols, minus and plus signs, superscripts, and French letters like ç. The telegrams were coded and illegible, and they never contained any comet name. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know whether this has to be a joke or what. This is a printout of a French-language news release from 1920 regarding the position of an observed new planet. Nothing about comets, naming, etc. See, basic knowledge of French prevents being misled by comments like yours. kashmiri 12:02, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- The IAU circulars communicate the discovery of all types of astronomical bodies: stars, asteroids, minor planets, comets, etc. as well as observations of interest, corrections, etc. Here you have the printed IAU circulars announcing 1919 g (Skjellerup) and Reid 1921a and Väisälä 1944b. More recent version are available by subscription. As you can see, the official names have always been announced in printed circulars, which don't have any restriction for diacritics, umlauts, dashes, scientific symbols, etc. Decades before the circulars started, they were announced in printed journal Astronomische Nachrichten, which also didn't have any restriction in characters. Telegrams didn't play any role in name announcements, they were just for quick announcements of discoveries. At discovery time comets only had a provisional designation like 1944b (second comet discovered in 1944). --Enric Naval (talk) 16:27, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't know whether this has to be a joke or what. This is a printout of a French-language news release from 1920 regarding the position of an observed new planet. Nothing about comets, naming, etc. See, basic knowledge of French prevents being misled by comments like yours. kashmiri 12:02, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- The IAU has a comet naming guideline, not a style guideline. It's the only body that can name comets, and its naming decisions are internationally accepted. --Enric Naval (talk) 11:29, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Comment. Hale-Bopp carries a hyphen because the IAU says that it's spelled with a hyphen. Hyphenated surnames have the hyphen replaced with a space, like Singer Brewster, discovered by Singer-Brewster, or cut in half, like Bally-Clayton (
I am not sure about the coded and illegible part. The IAU recently, though, asserted[3] using capital letters for planets, etc., but it is not clear if that extends to comets. Hale-Bopp for example could simply be certified as being "the comet Hale-Bopp", which provides no insight into capitalization of comet. The examples given were Solar System and Earth's equator.
It was noted that the naming of all planets so far has long predated the existence of the IAU. I think that rather than naming things they standardize names and certify them, and are an arbitor, but they do not make up the names, or sell names.
The IAU frequently receives requests from individuals who want to buy stars or name stars after other persons. Some commercial enterprises purport to offer such services for a fee. However, such "names" have no formal or official validity whatever.
Based on the survey of google book results below it is clear that the endash conclusion in 2011 took an extreme minority viewpoint and put the MOS in conflict with WP:TITLE. I suggest that it be reversed in light of new information, and that the examples of wars and comets with endash be removed from the MOS and replaced with hyphens. Whether the use of hyphens will remain dominant or, like Kiev could be replaced with a new spelling remains to be seen. WP is not a crystal ball and does not try to reflect what people should be doing or what they might be doing but simply what they are doing. Just as Kiev remains the overwhelming spelling in common usage, Comet Hale-Bopp (with a hyphen) is the dominant spelling for the comet Hale-Bopp (correctly not capitalized when preceded by the), along with airports and wars which have achieved proper name status and if there are any other names with endash or hyphen they, like Comet Hale-Bopp can be tested to see if they use an endash or a hyphen in common usage, but the MOS does not need to pretend that endash rules apply inside names, because that is not the interpretation of the vast majority of book editors. Should that change, clearly WP would eventually reflect that change as well, but certainly can not be expected to precede that change. To do so would be original research. Apteva (talk) 13:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
- The IAU decides who were the original discoverers and in which order they made the discovery, and the spelling of the comet name (the thing with modifying the hyphenated surnames). The IAU also fixates the transliterations of foreign names so they are spelled in only one way by everyone, although I can only give a example for a Moon crater(1). The IAU can ignore suggestions, see what happened to Hugh Percy Wilkins. If you disagree with a naming decision you can only appeal to the IAU itself. Most importantly, you can't assign arbitrary names to comes that you discovered yourself, the IAU will decide the name for you whether you like or not.
- (1) The Far Side of the Moon: A Photographic Guide. 5.1 Identification of Named Features. Spelling of Feature Names. The IAU has fixated the transliteration of "Tsiolkovskiy (crater)", which is named after a Russian rocket scientist. You could drop the last "i" and still have a valid transliteration of the guy's name from the Russian language, but then it wouldn't be the crater's correct name. The IAU standardized all Moon crater names in 1975, and it only accepts names of dead people, except for Apollo astronauts; some old names were retained, others were changed [4]. In 2008 the MESSENGER probe mapped Mercury, and the IAU made rules for the names of it surface features: the biggest basin received a unique name, cliffs were named after famous ships, and craters were named after "'deceased artists, musicians, painters, and authors who have made outstanding or fundamental contributions to their field and have been recognized as art historically significant figures for more than 50 years.". The IAU approved names for each feature and then published official maps.[5][6]. The IAU can pull this stuff because it's the naming authority in astronomy matters.
Q: Who is legally responsible for naming objects in the sky?
A: The IAU is the internationally recognized authority for naming celestial bodies and surface features on them. And names are not sold, but assigned according to internationally accepted rules. "Buying Star Names", IAU's FAQ
(...) rules established by the IAU, which emerged as the arbiter of planetary names and coordinate systems during the early years of space exploration. Back then, standardization helped to prevent the Solar System from being plastered with conflicting sets of names used by Soviet and US scientists. These days, the tensions are less nationalistic and more interdisciplinary: a dust-up between the geologists who tend to lead planetary missions and the astronomers who comprise much of the IAU. “Why should I let astronomers name things just because they’re on another planet?” asks Mike Malin, a geologist and principal investigator for the mast camera on NASA’s Curiosity rover mission, which has generated its own conflict with the IAU over the naming of a feature at its Martian landing site. "Space missions trigger map wars. Planetary explorers rebel against nomenclature protocols". Nature 22 August 2012
To avoid further disputes as proud pioneers sought to thank benefactors, curry favour or merely indulge themselves, the IAU went on to establish working groups to set rules and conventions for nomenclature.
, Procedures now make sure that mountains on Mercury are named with words for 'hot' in various languages, canyons on Venus christened after goddesses and small craters on Mars twinned with villages on Earth. Just last month, a 39-kilometre-wide Martian crater was named Moanda, after a town in Gabon. "The Name Game". Nature 22 August 2012
By that time, tiny P4 should have a real name. "We're tossing around some ideas," says Showalter, "but the name has to come out of Greek mythology associated with Hades and the underworld." That's according to the International Astronomical Union (IAU), which formally approves the names of heavenly objects — and which has strict and sometimes arcane guidelines for what's permitted. Underworld myths are the rule for moons of Pluto; for moons of Uranus, it must be characters from the works of Shakespeare and Alexander Pope — specifically Pope's poem "The Rape of the Lock." That required Showalter to learn the verses well. "I'm the discoverer of two moons of Uranus," he says. "We named them Cupid and Mab."
The IAU is also responsible for the decision in 2006 to demote tiny Pluto, just one-half the size of Earth's moon, to the status of dwarf planet. "Pass Out the Cigars! Pluto Is a Papa" Time, Science section, 25 July 2011
So who's in charge of naming solar system objects that are discovered now? Since its organization in 1919, the International Astronomical Union (IAU) has been in charge of naming all celestial objects. When an astronomer discovers an object, or wants to name a surface feature, they can submit a suggestion to the IAU, and the IAU either approves it or suggests a different name. Since we don't think there are any undiscovered planets, the IAU focuses on the naming of moons, surface features, asteroids, and comets and has websites about naming conventions for each. "Curious About Astronomy? Ask An Astronomer: Who named the planets and who decides what to name them?" Astronomy department of Cornell university.
The only official body which can give names to astronomical objects is the International Astronomical Union (IAU). (...) All official names have to be adopted by the IAU. There are certain rules which have to be followed in the official names allocated to different types of object; some of these are outlined below. (...) Comets. Comets are named after their discoverers. (...) In 1994, the International Astronomical Union updated their mechanism for naming comets (...) For more information on comet designations, please visit the International Astronomy Union website (...) "The naming of stars" Royal Observatory, Greenwich
- So, is it clear now that the IAU's naming guidelines are not an "in-house style"? And that the IAU is the only body with the power of naming astronomical stuff and defining the exact spelling of each name? --Enric Naval (talk) 22:59, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- The words "The MoS presents Wikipedia's house style" need to be nixed too. WP is not a publishing house and does not have a house style. WP is not a monolithic organization under the command of one person, even though some editors would prefer that. There are many styles that are appropriate, and the MOS explains what some of them are. It is not either inclusive nor exclusive. Editors refer to it for suggestions, but use their own common sense in applying what it says. Britannica, on the other hand, is a publishing house, and does have a house style. The words "house style" are not common language and have no reason for being used, even if we were a monolithic organization, and even if we did have a "house style", which we do not. Apteva (talk) 17:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- Let's not expand the scope of this section so much, or we will get nothing done. We were talking about comet names: the capital "c" in "Comet", the hyphens, and the proper name status. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- The words "The MoS presents Wikipedia's house style" need to be nixed too. WP is not a publishing house and does not have a house style. WP is not a monolithic organization under the command of one person, even though some editors would prefer that. There are many styles that are appropriate, and the MOS explains what some of them are. It is not either inclusive nor exclusive. Editors refer to it for suggestions, but use their own common sense in applying what it says. Britannica, on the other hand, is a publishing house, and does have a house style. The words "house style" are not common language and have no reason for being used, even if we were a monolithic organization, and even if we did have a "house style", which we do not. Apteva (talk) 17:08, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
Above, Enric Naval ignores the difference between naming and styling, and between official names and common names. The IAU has a brief style guide in which they "recommend" capitalization of names of individual astronomical objects (just as many other organizations have style guides that recommend capitalizing the important items in their respective fields). "The IAU formally recommends that the initial letters of the names of individual astronomical objects should be printed as capitals" as their web page says, referencing their style guide which clarifies that this is "in IAU publications". If they have a recommendation for how the general public should choose to style the names, I'm not sure where it is. And if they have info that says "comet" should come before or after the name, I'm not seeing that, either; it's clear that in common names, Halley's comet is more common the comet Halley, but others go the other way. Does IAU control this? I don't think so. Do they have an opinion on en dashes? Like many style guides, theirs doesn't say anything about that. Dicklyon (talk) 17:45, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- (I'll comment on hyphens. I won't comment on comet/Comet.) The IAU's comet naming guideline, not styling and not an in-house style, says that discoverer names are separated by hyphens. And says to remove hyphens from hyphenated surnames to avoid confusions with said hyphens, like Singer Brewster, discovered by Singer-Brewster, or drop part of the name hyphenated surname, like Bally-Clayton, discovered by Bally-Urban and Clayton. Thus, these compounded names are not built with standard English rules, they are built with IAU's naming rules, which give explicit instructions for using hyphens and spaces to separate the name in a manner that doesn't cause any confusion about how many discoverers the comet has. (Thus, it's not necessary to use dashes to separate surnames, because there is no possible confusion with any hyphenated surname in any comet name, past or future.) --Enric Naval (talk) 18:02, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- First a clarification. The IAU is not referring to an internal guideline about how they should internally recommend capitalizing or recommend using spaces and hyphens - they are the final arbitrator as to what the "official" name of a comet or planet is. They use those guidelines in helping them make those decisions, and they publish their answers. Bally-Urban was certainly asked would you like to use Bally or Urban because you can not use both. Singer-Brewster could have been asked, but the guideline permits using up to two names. Some names go on much longer. Secondly while there is a difference between the official name and the common name of many things, in neither case do comets use a hyphen. Common usage is tested, as it was here, by checking as many sources as possible and determining the most common usage. Scholarly sources could tend to prefer the official name, but not necessarily. Common names could tend to prefer comet Halley or Halley's comet, or Halley's Comet. It is not clear whether the IAU is even specifying whether comet goes before or after the name and is simply addressing the variable portion of the name - the word planet is not a part of the name planet Earth, why would comet be part of the name comet Hale-Bopp? It is completely acceptable, in context, to use Hale-Bopp. The dominant convention though, is clear, for most comets, it comes first. But the MOS is not the place for establishing title rules. That domain is at WP:TITLE, which has, like the MOS, 70 subpages for assistance. Apteva (talk) 19:29, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- WP doesn't care what IAU wants to do stylistically. WP is not an astronomy journal. IAU allegedly asserting that its stylistic decision to favor hyphens over dashes (I would bet good money they did not in fact draw any such distinction, and are only drawing a distinction between using a space and using a dash that they have misnamed a hyphen, because they're astronomers, not grammarians; Apteva's own post of 14:54, 16 October 2012 (UTC) supports my view here) is actually a naming matter not a style matter is simply an alleged assertion and not one that WP is magically bound to recognize when it defies common sense and conflicts with our business as usual of creating an encyclopedia. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 22:15, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Did you read all the quotes I posted above? The IAU has a naming guideline, not styling. It decides the names and how they are written, and how foreign names are transliterated from other languages. I have seen several sources explaining that comet names use hyphens, and how hyphenated surnames need to have the hyphens removed so they don't conflict with the other hyphens. I have never seen any source saying that the IAU really meant to use dashes and not hyphens. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:28, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- WP doesn't care what IAU wants to do stylistically. WP is not an astronomy journal. IAU allegedly asserting that its stylistic decision to favor hyphens over dashes (I would bet good money they did not in fact draw any such distinction, and are only drawing a distinction between using a space and using a dash that they have misnamed a hyphen, because they're astronomers, not grammarians; Apteva's own post of 14:54, 16 October 2012 (UTC) supports my view here) is actually a naming matter not a style matter is simply an alleged assertion and not one that WP is magically bound to recognize when it defies common sense and conflicts with our business as usual of creating an encyclopedia. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ Contrib. 22:15, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- First a clarification. The IAU is not referring to an internal guideline about how they should internally recommend capitalizing or recommend using spaces and hyphens - they are the final arbitrator as to what the "official" name of a comet or planet is. They use those guidelines in helping them make those decisions, and they publish their answers. Bally-Urban was certainly asked would you like to use Bally or Urban because you can not use both. Singer-Brewster could have been asked, but the guideline permits using up to two names. Some names go on much longer. Secondly while there is a difference between the official name and the common name of many things, in neither case do comets use a hyphen. Common usage is tested, as it was here, by checking as many sources as possible and determining the most common usage. Scholarly sources could tend to prefer the official name, but not necessarily. Common names could tend to prefer comet Halley or Halley's comet, or Halley's Comet. It is not clear whether the IAU is even specifying whether comet goes before or after the name and is simply addressing the variable portion of the name - the word planet is not a part of the name planet Earth, why would comet be part of the name comet Hale-Bopp? It is completely acceptable, in context, to use Hale-Bopp. The dominant convention though, is clear, for most comets, it comes first. But the MOS is not the place for establishing title rules. That domain is at WP:TITLE, which has, like the MOS, 70 subpages for assistance. Apteva (talk) 19:29, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
- I still don't see any argument beyond "IAU only sets the styling", which is patently incorrect according to multiple reliable sources, and "IAU meant a dash", which is not supported by any reliable source and directly contradicts a few of them that make explicit mention of this rule. So, are we going to remove Hale-Bopp as an example of a compounded name in English. Maybe we should rename all counterexamples lik the airport names:
- --Enric Naval (talk) 13:20, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Modification to MOS:IDENTITY
A few weeks ago, there was a proposal at WP:VPP to modify the wording of MOS:IDENTITY, specifically Point 2; the archived discussion is here. It gained some traction, but it died down without any kind of resolution, so I want to raise it again. The specific change being sought is;
"Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns, pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's gender at the time of notability as reflected within the prevalence of mainstream reliable sources. Identity changes thereafter should be dealt with chronologically but should always follow the conventions used with prevalence in mainstream sources."
Instead of copying over the rationale, the link to the archive shows Berean Hunter's rationale, and other examples are provided in the thread. If people think this would be better discussed elsewhere, that's fine, but since the waters at VPP have been tested this seems like the most logical place. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:49, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- I made a similar proposal back in May here. I agree with Blade that we need to follow what mainstream sources say rather than get ahead of these sources by making a judgment based on an individual's statements. GabrielF (talk) 18:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Does this mean we'll have to change Template:MOS-TW?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:40, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, it would. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- What would the template's words have to change to?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:48, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Hadn't thought about it... that'll obviously need some work. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:55, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- What would the template's words have to change to?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:48, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, it would. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 18:46, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Does this mean we'll have to change Template:MOS-TW?? Georgia guy (talk) 18:40, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Can you clear up the exact meaning of this proposed rule?? Is it any similar to the following:
Trans women who are notable for being trans women should be referred to as she/her. However, trans women notable primarily for an event before the operation of surgery for a reason that has nothing to do with being transsexual should be referred to as he/him as if they were cisgender men. Georgia guy (talk) 22:29, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
- Almost. The first sentence is right, but the idea is to refer to, say, Laura Jane Grace as "he" when he was identifying as Tom Gabel and "she" after coming out in public as a she. Make sense? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:10, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- You mean, we should assume that trans women actually were men, not women trapped in men's bodies, before the operation?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- To couch it in less loaded, more policy-based language, it's to avoid outright misleading revisionist history such as "she captained her tennis team at Horace Mann" (in the article on Renée Richards); specifics are in the linked VPP conversation. We at Wikipedia aren't here to play psychologists and pass judgment on whether or not they were really men or just women all along, we're here to report facts; in the cases of Grace and Richards, among others, they were notable under different names and sexes and our articles should reflect that. And this also works the other way too; the article on Andreas Krieger should be treated the same (and as of writing is actually a good example of what I'm shooting for). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:34, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- Notable under different names and sexes?? This phrase actually does imply the statement I was asking above whether we should assume. Georgia guy (talk) 19:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- The sex the person was commonly believed to be at the time. I think this is a slam-dunk. We do not — we must not — take a position on whether a person's "real" sex is. The choice to retroactively apply a sex change to previous notable events is nothing short of advocacy of a particular point of view; it must stop. --Trovatore (talk) 20:02, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- And likewise the choice to refer to people by the genders to which they were misassigned at birth is also advocacy of a point of view -- it's a claim that the person writing the article knows better than the subject what their name and gender are. Stealth Munchkin (talk) 01:12, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- In the case where we have the person saying "I am gender X, I have always been gender X, and things were misreported by the media". I agree with you. We rarely have such a statement. Quite often the person THEMSELVES represented themselves as the other gender at times in the past. Saying they did not is a lie, and unenclyclopedic, regardless of what they may have felt. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:43, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- In the case of Laura Jane Grace, we have someone who actively sought to be and maintain a public image as a man; rewriting the article to state otherwise (as some people attempted to do before someone hacked out a temporary solution) is downright inaccurate. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:21, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- In the case where we have the person saying "I am gender X, I have always been gender X, and things were misreported by the media". I agree with you. We rarely have such a statement. Quite often the person THEMSELVES represented themselves as the other gender at times in the past. Saying they did not is a lie, and unenclyclopedic, regardless of what they may have felt. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:43, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- And likewise the choice to refer to people by the genders to which they were misassigned at birth is also advocacy of a point of view -- it's a claim that the person writing the article knows better than the subject what their name and gender are. Stealth Munchkin (talk) 01:12, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- The sex the person was commonly believed to be at the time. I think this is a slam-dunk. We do not — we must not — take a position on whether a person's "real" sex is. The choice to retroactively apply a sex change to previous notable events is nothing short of advocacy of a particular point of view; it must stop. --Trovatore (talk) 20:02, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- Notable under different names and sexes?? This phrase actually does imply the statement I was asking above whether we should assume. Georgia guy (talk) 19:14, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
- To couch it in less loaded, more policy-based language, it's to avoid outright misleading revisionist history such as "she captained her tennis team at Horace Mann" (in the article on Renée Richards); specifics are in the linked VPP conversation. We at Wikipedia aren't here to play psychologists and pass judgment on whether or not they were really men or just women all along, we're here to report facts; in the cases of Grace and Richards, among others, they were notable under different names and sexes and our articles should reflect that. And this also works the other way too; the article on Andreas Krieger should be treated the same (and as of writing is actually a good example of what I'm shooting for). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:34, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
- You mean, we should assume that trans women actually were men, not women trapped in men's bodies, before the operation?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:13, 5 October 2012 (UTC)
This section can be archived, just like any section of a talk page. I remember from 2004-2006 the "Georgia moving poll" which was wasn't archived for a long time. (It was at Talk:Georgia; now it's in an archive.) Can we put this discussion in a similar area so that it won't be archived too quickly?? Georgia guy (talk) 17:00, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Not sure... anyone familiar with this talkpage have suggestions? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:15, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
- Think I've got it... now on with the discussion. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:31, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- I support this change. This issue is also coming up in The Wachowskis article as Larry/Lana has now come out after transitioning male->female. Obviously most notable for events when she was identified explicitly as male "The Wachowski Brothers" etc. However, renewed notability with the recent release of Cloud Atlas where she is doing interviews etc as Lana. General lede/summary information should use the prefered gender/name. However, historical information should use the gender used by that person at the time, as reported in reliable sources. it is WP:OR to assume we know what they considered their gender in the past; WP:OR to assume they considered themselves "trapped" etc, unless they have explicitly said so. Not everyone's LBGT path is the same. The guidance provided in the current MOS leads to innacurate information - the given example of "He gave birth->He became a parent" in particular is a loss of precision unacceptable for an encyclopdia. There are a multitude of ways to become a parent (father, give birth, adopt, just take responsibility for, etc) and removing a factual statement because the gender doesnt make sense is inaccurate. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Perhaps we can add something to say prefer neutral language wherever possible where the historical information disagrees with current preference, or add qualifying statements such as "John so and so, who prior to their gender transition identifed as Jane, gave birth" etc. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:36, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- I support this change. This issue is also coming up in The Wachowskis article as Larry/Lana has now come out after transitioning male->female. Obviously most notable for events when she was identified explicitly as male "The Wachowski Brothers" etc. However, renewed notability with the recent release of Cloud Atlas where she is doing interviews etc as Lana. General lede/summary information should use the prefered gender/name. However, historical information should use the gender used by that person at the time, as reported in reliable sources. it is WP:OR to assume we know what they considered their gender in the past; WP:OR to assume they considered themselves "trapped" etc, unless they have explicitly said so. Not everyone's LBGT path is the same. The guidance provided in the current MOS leads to innacurate information - the given example of "He gave birth->He became a parent" in particular is a loss of precision unacceptable for an encyclopdia. There are a multitude of ways to become a parent (father, give birth, adopt, just take responsibility for, etc) and removing a factual statement because the gender doesnt make sense is inaccurate. Gaijin42 (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
- Think I've got it... now on with the discussion. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:31, 15 October 2012 (UTC)
- We should keep the current rule, in which we use the individual's most recent preferred pronoun. If a source from 1986 says that singer Crystal Zing was born in Nashville, but Zing later digs up her birth certificate and finds out that she was really born in Memphis and only grew up in Nashville, then we should no continue to say that she was born in Nashville, even though an otherwise reliable source says that she was. That source was wrong. It is the same idea with people who undergo gender transition, like L. Wachowski. The sources (like most of the rest of the world) made a good-faith mistake in referring to Wachowski as male. More accurate information has come to light showing that Wachowski is female. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:32, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- You are making an assumption that you know that Wachowski considered themselves female at that point in the past (and in this case when they explicitly identified themselves repeatedly as "Wachowski Brothers". Not everyone who is trans has felt that way their entire life. You might not claim Zing was born in Nashville. But you might say that she SAID she was born in Nashville until X, which was true before the birth certificate, and will be true forever. To say that they always claimed to be born in Memphis is inaccurate. Gaijin42 (talk) 01:07, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- Not everyone who is trans has not felt that way their entire life. If our aim is to respect trans people's subjective experiences, shouldn't we allow for the possibility that some trans people will make statements along the lines of, "I have always been a woman," and respect that when they do? On a related note, while it is necessarily the case that trans people found their identities before being public about them, it is not necessarily the case that the prevalence of "mainstream, reliable sources" will reflect their identities in a timely manner. Indeed in the case of some trans people -- I have in mind certain historical figures and trans people whose only mention in mainstream media is in obituaries in which they have been misgendered -- this will never happen. -- Marie Paradox (talk) 02:38, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is an encyclopedia, not an LGBT publication; we don't rewrite history to pretend peoples' previous names/identities didn't exist. Just as we don't refer to Eminem (I can't believe I'm using him as an example for anything) by his stage name until he himself used it, so we should do the same here. It's one thing when someone wasn't notable at all before transitioning (c.f. Andrea James, which is completely fine), articles on these people wouldn't be affected. However, in extreme cases we get articles like Dee Palmer; due to the current rule, the article is misleading and almost unreadable. We're referring to Palmer as "she" 35 years before Palmer transitioned. Palmer is almost exclusively notable for having played in Jethro Tull, and through that entire period was known as David Palmer; to pretend otherwise is 1. outright advocacy for a particular point of view on the matter (the only places I've ever heard Palmer referred to as a she while with Jethro Tull are LGBT publications and Wikipedia) and 2. misinforms our readers, because no one would have referred to Palmer as a she during that period. At Laura Jane Grace people have at least managed to hack out a decent solution for the time being; however, the same problem described above exists with the Renée Richards article and is spectacularly bad at Theresa Sparks; the proposed wording would be able to resolve that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:57, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with Blade. It's an encyclopedia not an exercise in making people feel good about themselves. Otherwise any person with a biography on here could complain that they're not happy about the section concerning their adultery, massive fraud, or the murder of half a dozen people and we should remove it because it offends them and they say that they don't feel they ever really killed all those people, it was the voices in their head. The encylcopedia should reflect the history as it is, Lana Wachowski can have felt like a woman since she was born but she identified herself as male, went by male monikers, filed credits for films as Larry Wachowski or The Wachowski Brothers, filled out forms as a male, that is the reality of the situation. I raed the above link to Laura Jane Grace and an IP on there actually advocated removing all mention whatsoever of the name Tom Gabel and retroactively modifying the history of the person as if there was never a man named Tom Gabel in existence. It's ridiculous over sensitivity and not what the place is about, otherwise that album cover with the underage girl on it would have been removed quite sharpish. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:10, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- Darkwarriorblake, if the problem is that some people want to remove all mention of the name -- not merely every instance in which the name is used to refer to Laura -- then why not deal with that problem? Why not explain to the user what "refers to" means and that nothing in the MOS forbids wording such as, "Laura Jane Grace, whom people used to call . . . ." In The Wachowskis the problem is almost the opposite; I have been trying to remove every instance in which Lana's old name is used to refer to her while retaining mere mentions of her old name, but another editor insists on referring to her by her old name. To prevent future violations of this sort should we revise the MOS to say that all mentions of trans people's former names is forbidden? (And, just to be clear, I am definitely not proposing this.) I do not see how that would be more overkill than what you are suggesting. -- Marie Paradox (talk) 13:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Blade, when have I ever advocated "rewrit"ing "history"? There is no reason we cannot acknowledge people's previous names while still referring to them in accordance with their new names, e.g., "John, whose name used to be Jane, lived with his parents in Wyoming until 1983." (This is exactly the sort of solution I have time and time again said I would support regarding The Wachowskis.) While editors may not refer to Eminem as Eminem while writing about his past, we do frequently refer to Mark Twain as Twain, even while talking about his childhood. We cannot avoid "outright advocacy" by writing articles as though a trans person is, say, Jane one day and John the next; that is a not very subtle suggestion that the correct view of trans people is a particular view that real people have advocated. This is an encyclopedia -- not an anti-LGBT publication. -- Marie Paradox (talk) 13:55, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- (Note; only a response to the section addressed to me) The names aren't an issue; it has been worked out that we use the proper nouns publicly in use at the time period being written about (in addition to Laura, The Wachowskis and Angela Morley are written this way), and MOS:IDENTITY contains nothing suggesting otherwise. A better non-transgender comparison is Muhammad Ali, as unlike Eminem or Twain he actually did change his name. We avoid advocacy by doing exactly the same with gendered pronouns. To use the Renée Richards example, the early life section is actively misleading; contrary to what the pronouns in the article state, Raskind was not attending a girl's school and captaining the girl's tennis team (Horace Mann at that time separated boys and girls, but then as now was one school, parenthetical added 16:46, 28 October 2012 (UTC)). It's not anti-LGBT to do what I'm suggesting, it's accurately documenting peoples' lives. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- The Renée Richards example is a false analogy. If she was in a class intended for boys, it was inaccurate to say she was in a class intended for girls. However, there is nothing inaccurate about using names or pronouns based on one's current situation. That is why we can say that someone named Isabella was born on such and such a day, even if Isabella did not have a name until some time after she was born. Indeed this is the pervasive practice in such situations. If there is disagreement over whether, say, a trans woman really was a woman, the only neutral, natural way to handle it is to call her by the currently used pronoun; it is only when we start calling her by anything else that we take a side in the matter.
- Incidentally, the proposal, though being offered as neutral, is advocating more than I have suggested above. The proposal does not take all reliable sources into consideration; it simply privileges some sources (i.e. mainstream media sources that were written at the time) over others (e.g. mainsteam media sources that were written after the fact, the style guides of the same mainstream media sources, revised birth certificates, and genetic or neurological research that shows that trans people have had their genders from birth). If the proposal were to go into effect, we could not even take retractions written after the time of notability. Do I need to explain why painting ourselves into a corner like this is a bad idea?
- -- Marie Paradox (talk) 16:04, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- (Note; only a response to the section addressed to me) The names aren't an issue; it has been worked out that we use the proper nouns publicly in use at the time period being written about (in addition to Laura, The Wachowskis and Angela Morley are written this way), and MOS:IDENTITY contains nothing suggesting otherwise. A better non-transgender comparison is Muhammad Ali, as unlike Eminem or Twain he actually did change his name. We avoid advocacy by doing exactly the same with gendered pronouns. To use the Renée Richards example, the early life section is actively misleading; contrary to what the pronouns in the article state, Raskind was not attending a girl's school and captaining the girl's tennis team (Horace Mann at that time separated boys and girls, but then as now was one school, parenthetical added 16:46, 28 October 2012 (UTC)). It's not anti-LGBT to do what I'm suggesting, it's accurately documenting peoples' lives. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:27, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
- Agree with Blade. It's an encyclopedia not an exercise in making people feel good about themselves. Otherwise any person with a biography on here could complain that they're not happy about the section concerning their adultery, massive fraud, or the murder of half a dozen people and we should remove it because it offends them and they say that they don't feel they ever really killed all those people, it was the voices in their head. The encylcopedia should reflect the history as it is, Lana Wachowski can have felt like a woman since she was born but she identified herself as male, went by male monikers, filed credits for films as Larry Wachowski or The Wachowski Brothers, filled out forms as a male, that is the reality of the situation. I raed the above link to Laura Jane Grace and an IP on there actually advocated removing all mention whatsoever of the name Tom Gabel and retroactively modifying the history of the person as if there was never a man named Tom Gabel in existence. It's ridiculous over sensitivity and not what the place is about, otherwise that album cover with the underage girl on it would have been removed quite sharpish. Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:10, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- This is an encyclopedia, not an LGBT publication; we don't rewrite history to pretend peoples' previous names/identities didn't exist. Just as we don't refer to Eminem (I can't believe I'm using him as an example for anything) by his stage name until he himself used it, so we should do the same here. It's one thing when someone wasn't notable at all before transitioning (c.f. Andrea James, which is completely fine), articles on these people wouldn't be affected. However, in extreme cases we get articles like Dee Palmer; due to the current rule, the article is misleading and almost unreadable. We're referring to Palmer as "she" 35 years before Palmer transitioned. Palmer is almost exclusively notable for having played in Jethro Tull, and through that entire period was known as David Palmer; to pretend otherwise is 1. outright advocacy for a particular point of view on the matter (the only places I've ever heard Palmer referred to as a she while with Jethro Tull are LGBT publications and Wikipedia) and 2. misinforms our readers, because no one would have referred to Palmer as a she during that period. At Laura Jane Grace people have at least managed to hack out a decent solution for the time being; however, the same problem described above exists with the Renée Richards article and is spectacularly bad at Theresa Sparks; the proposed wording would be able to resolve that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:57, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- Not everyone who is trans has not felt that way their entire life. If our aim is to respect trans people's subjective experiences, shouldn't we allow for the possibility that some trans people will make statements along the lines of, "I have always been a woman," and respect that when they do? On a related note, while it is necessarily the case that trans people found their identities before being public about them, it is not necessarily the case that the prevalence of "mainstream, reliable sources" will reflect their identities in a timely manner. Indeed in the case of some trans people -- I have in mind certain historical figures and trans people whose only mention in mainstream media is in obituaries in which they have been misgendered -- this will never happen. -- Marie Paradox (talk) 02:38, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
- There is no entirely neutral way of dealing with the issue of gendered pronouns for transgender individuals. If we refer to a male-to-female individual as "he," then we are taking a position. If we refer to a male-to-female individual as "she," then we are taking a position. If we switch back and forth, we're taking a position (and we look stupid). Because these three options are roughly equal with respect to politics, we should choose the person's most recent preferred pronoun because, unlike the other two options, it is polite.
- What that does not involve, however, is revisionist history. Referring to Lara Wachowski as "she" does not make the assertion that she was born with female genitalia, only that she is properly referred to by a female pronoun. The way to prevent the readers from misunderstanding is to clearly refer to Lara Wachowski as a transgendered person by saying "Lara Wachowski, then Larry Wachowski," or "Lara Wachowski, who would undergo gender transition at the age of [XX]..." Any biographical article that that does not acknowledge a person's gender transition clearly needs to be rewritten in the first place. Whatever the politics of the matter, it's an important and relevant part of a person's life, at least as important as what school he or she attended or whom he or she married.
- In this way, referring to a male-to-female individual as "she" while saying that she went to a single-gender school is not misleading so long as the article either 1. states that this is a male-to-female transgender individual or 2. refers to the school as an all-boys school. Darkfrog24 (talk) 16:10, 28 October 2012 (UTC)
Past discrepancies
Have these been fixed? (from archive) Apteva (talk) 01:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Thank you, Kwamikagami. Art LaPella (talk) 17:43, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:HEAD
Done
- WP:HEAD says "Change a heading only after careful consideration, and if doing so use an anchor template ..." But Help:Section#Section linking and redirects doesn't require the anchor; it lists anchors as one of several alternatives. MOS:SECTIONS is similarly permissive, using the word "Consider ..." rather than a simple imperative.
- Anchors are not required. They are only used when there are known articles that link to that section heading. The choice is to either change the link or add an anchor. Either can be done. Apteva (talk) 01:47, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- WP:TPOC (version of 09:23, 9 October 2012), point 13, ends by saying: "In order to ensure links to the previous section heading (including automatically generated links in watchlists and histories) continue to work, one should use one of the following templates to anchor the old title: {{formerly}}, {{anchord}}, {{anchor}}." The same benefits apply to article pages.
- —Wavelength (talk) 02:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- WP:HEAD currently matches MOS:SECTIONS. Did you simply copy an old list I made, or did you look anything up to see how current it is? Art LaPella (talk) 04:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- As you go down the list, "fixed" means fixed previously; I didn't fix anything tonight. About half the list has been fixed over the last few years. Art LaPella (talk) 05:34, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
MOS:CURRENCY
Done
- MOS:CURRENCY says "In non-country-specific articles such as Wealth, use US dollars (US$123), the dominant reserve currency of the world. Some editors also like to provide euro and/or pound sterling equivalents ..." (emphasis added). But MOS:#Currencies says "or", not "also": "In non-country-specific articles, express amounts of money in United States dollars, euros, or pounds sterling." (emphasis in original)
- Not fixed yet. The latter is from the main MoS page, so I suppose the former should be changed to the latter, unless someone otherwise resolves the contradiction. Art LaPella (talk) 04:28, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- CURRENCY contradicted itself further down with "Conversions of less familiar currencies may be provided in terms of more familiar currencies, such as the US dollar, euro or pound sterling." I therefore used that wording, bringing it in line with the main MOS page. Looks like someone had changed it to require US dollars, but did not bring the entire page into line with that. — kwami (talk) 23:36, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
I've never heard "as at August" before. Is that a British thing? — kwami (talk) 19:23, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:COPYEDIT
Done
- WP:COPYEDIT#Common edits says "The wording, spelling, and punctuation of literal quotations should not be changed. ... See WP:MOSQUOTE for details." MOSQUOTE starts out the same way: "Preserve the original text, spelling, and punctuation." But then it says "Trivial spelling or typographical errors should be silently corrected ...", and there's no hint that some spelling errors are more trivial than others. Presumably it means that quotes over 200 years old shouldn't be spell checked, but that isn't the most common cause of misspelling. Thus most spelling should be corrected, depending on which guideline we read. Most of MOSQUOTE is about "Allowable typographical changes" that similarly undermine the rule against changing punctuation.
- Changed since then, but not fixed. "obvious errors in the original can be marked with [sic]" is inconsistent with "Trivial spelling or typographical errors should be silently corrected (for example, correct supercede to supersede, harasssment to harassment)—unless the slip is textually important." Art LaPella (talk) 04:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think that's inconsistent. "Obvious errors" could mean all sorts of things besides typos: a date that's off by a century cannot be corrected, but it should be marked [sic] so that people don't think it's a WP error (or worse, think it's correct). Calling the vice-president "president" shouldn't be fixed either, but again a [sic] would be called for. Same with a mention of an impossible person or organization: we might know it's wrong without being certain what the correct name would be, and even if we think we know, we'd run into problems with OR and misrepresenting the source.
- Changed since then, but not fixed. "obvious errors in the original can be marked with [sic]" is inconsistent with "Trivial spelling or typographical errors should be silently corrected (for example, correct supercede to supersede, harasssment to harassment)—unless the slip is textually important." Art LaPella (talk) 04:35, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- The way I read it, if we're quoting Swift Who capitalizes all Common Nouns, we should too, and should retain the 18th-c. spelling, but we can fill in a missing 'e' in 'the' or replace a typewriter overstrike of o and / with a proper ø, or typewriter underlining with italics. — kwami (talk) 06:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Rereading COPYEDIT, it gives three options for situations including "spelling": leaving it alone, using "sic", and corrections in brackets. Silent correction isn't one of those options. So "See MOSQUOTE for details" is misleading in the case of ordinary misspelling such as a missing "e" in "the". Art LaPella (talk) 15:17, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Done
- WP:Manual of Style (France & French-related)#Railways says "use the basis Ligne de XXXXXXXX - XXXXXXXX (ex. Ligne de Grenoble - Montmélian)". It should say "despite WP:HYPHEN and WP:ENDASH" if you really want French railways to be an exception to our usual taboo against spaced hyphens. The following section about railway stations says "it should be joined by hyphens. ex: 'Gare de XXXXXX-YY-ZZZZZZZZ'", which isn't a spaced hyphen, but anyway.
- The ampersand in the title "WP:Manual of Style (France & French-related)" conflicts with WP:&. I realize it says "Retain ampersands in titles of works", but since we named it ourselves, we can rename it.
- 1 has been fixed except for "Gare de XXXXXX-YY-ZZZZZZZZ", and I no longer think that is an error since we decided to hyphenate Austria-Hungary for instance. 2 has not been fixed. Art LaPella (talk) 04:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Done
- WP:Manual of Style (Islam-related articles) says "The first sentence of each article should have the article title in bold ..." To be more consistent with the exception in MOS:BEGIN, it should be more like WP:Manual of Style (mathematics)#Article introduction which says "In general, ..."
- Not fixed Art LaPella (talk) 04:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Fixed. I also added a footnote "Exceptions are made for descriptive titles that are self-explanatory". Pls take that out if it's inappropriate—perhaps we don't need to spell out exceptions? But the Islam MOS does not refer the reader to the Lead-style article. — kwami (talk) 06:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Not fixed Art LaPella (talk) 04:51, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:ELLIPSIS
Done
- WP:ELLIPSIS says: "Use non-breaking spaces (
) only as needed to prevent improper line breaks, for example: ... To keep the ellipsis from wrapping to the next line ("France, Germany,
... and Belgium but not the USSR")." But the very purpose of is to prevent wrapping to the next line. So "Use ... nbsp only as needed to prevent improper line breaks, for example ... to keep it from wrapping to the next line", can be simplified to "Use nbsp only as needed to prevent improper line breaks, for example every damn time."
- Noetica apparently agrees to removing the word "only", and hasn't answered concerning the other changes he proposed. So if there is no further comment on this issue, I will remove the word "only" when page protection comes off, which would resolve this old issue. Art LaPella (talk) 04:54, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Now I have made that edit. So this is fixed. Art LaPella (talk) 18:54, 18 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:NBSP
Done
- WP:NBSP says "Use a non-breaking space ... in expressions in which figures and abbreviations (or symbols) are separated by a space (e.g. ... AD 565". But WP:ERA says "BCE and CE or BC and AD are ... separated from the year number by a space or non-breaking space (5 BC, not 5BC)." (emphasis added)
- Fixed long ago. Art LaPella (talk) 04:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:DECADE
Done
- WP:DECADE says "The two-digit form [of a decade], to which a preceding apostrophe should be added ..." But MOS:#Longer periods says "(the '80s or the 80s)".
- That was also fixed. Art LaPella (talk) 05:00, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:CENTURY
Done
- The end of MOS:#Longer periods says "Centuries and millennia are written ... without Roman numerals". But the section it's supposed to be summarizing at WP:CENTURY doesn't mention Roman numerals.
- Fixed (neither place mentions Roman numerals any more) Art LaPella (talk) 05:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:MOS
Done
- MOS:#Large numbers says "Because large rounded numbers are generally assumed to be approximations, about or similar qualifications are not normally needed." But MOS:#Currencies says "approx. US$1.4M ... approx. €1.0M".
- MOS:#Large numbers is now at MOS:NUM#Large numbers, but it isn't fixed. Art LaPella (talk) 05:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Fixed. #Large numbers is standard for any round number: the default reading is that the actual value is within one-half of the last figure. That is, "3.9" means closer to 3.9 than to 3.8 or 4.0. "Approx." would only be used if the default reading did not hold (say, "approx. 4" if the number were somewhere between 2 and 6). Using "approximately" with normally rounded-off numbers is actually misleading. — kwami (talk) 06:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- MOS:#Large numbers is now at MOS:NUM#Large numbers, but it isn't fixed. Art LaPella (talk) 05:13, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:BULLETLIST
Done
- WP:BULLETLIST says "As a matter of style, list items should start with a capital letter. They should not have a punctuation mark such as a period, a comma or a semi-colon at the end, except if a list item is one or more full sentences, in which case there is a period at the end." But MOS:#Bulleted and numbered lists says "When the elements are sentence fragments ... [they] are formatted consistently in either sentence case or lower case. Each element should end with a semicolon, with a period instead for the last element. Alternatively (especially when the elements are short), no final punctuation is used at all." (emphasis added)
- Not fixed Art LaPella (talk) 05:09, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:Manual of Style (music)
Not done
- WP:Manual of Style (music)#Usage says "The word hip hop is ... not hyphenated." The compound adjective article says "Conventionally, and with the support of modern writing guides, compound modifiers that appear before a noun phrase generally include a hyphen between each word, subject to some exceptions", and none of the exceptions applies to a phrase like "hip-hop music".
- I don't know if it changed, but now I wouldn't call it inconsistent. The compound adjective article says Art LaPella (talk) 05:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC) which says "If, however, there is no risk of ambiguities, it may be written without a hyphen: Sunday morning walk."
WP:PAIC
Done
- WP:PAIC says "Place inline citations after any punctuation such as a comma or period" ... But WP:REFPUNC says "If an article has evolved using predominantly one style of ref tag placement, the whole article should conform to that style unless there is a consensus to change it."
- Fixed Art LaPella (talk) 05:23, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:ANDOR
Done
- WP:ANDOR says "Avoid the construct and/or on Wikipedia", which is often easier said than done. Searching the Manual for "and/or" proves that the real guideline is "Do as I say, not as I do." The same could be said for other guidelines such as spaced hyphens in the subpages, although I have changed many of them to en dashes according to WP:HYPHEN and WP:ENDASH.
- At least "and/or" has not been fixed. Art LaPella (talk) 05:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
Done
- WP:Manual of Style (British Isles-related articles) says "The following guidelines apply to all British Isles-related topics ...", but then it doesn't list any guidelines! The Manual of Style banner has been removed, but not the Manual of Style category, so you can still arrive at that dead end from Template:Style.
- Fixed Art LaPella (talk) 05:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
WP:Manual of Style (mathematics)
Done
- WP:Manual of Style (mathematics)#Choice of type style says "The most well-known functions—trigonometric functions, logarithms, etc.—have no parentheses. For example: ". But WP:Manual of Style (mathematics)#Functions says "f(x) = sin(x) cos(x)".
- Parentheses are more common for trig functions, but there is no need to specify how formulas should be written. Not using parentheses for ln though does make sense - ln 2 but does not need to be in the MOS. Apteva (talk) 01:53, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- Anyway, this contradiction has not been fixed. Art LaPella (talk) 05:30, 17 October 2012 (UTC)
- I see this case as analogous to the situation with groups of numbers. According to a prima facie application of the common rule (with which I personally disagree) “Numbers greater than ten are given in figures; others are spelled out,” one might write “The brothers were aged three, eight, and 12 when their parents divorced,” or “In the next three elections the party won seven, 13, and 27 seats,” but I think most will agree that it would be preferable to use the same style for all the directly comparable numbers in each list. Similarly—even if “sin x” is usually the preferred form—since we don’t write “f x”, parallelism calls for the other terms to be styled accordingly in this context.—Odysseus1479 (talk) 20:05, 20 October 2012 (UTC) [corrected (thanks to Wavelength) 21:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC)]
- That's a ridiculous rule. Parallel numbers in a list should be either all spelled out, or all in digits, not half one and half the other. I think similar parallelism among two MOS-acceptable styles should hold for math functions.
- I'm adding this section to the math MOS page, since it's an internal discrepancy. Where's the rule for writing out numbers? — kwami (talk) 23:54, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Oh, I agree completely. JFTR most proponents of that rule (and of others like it—my preferred version more or less substitutes “requiring more than one word to express” for “greater than ten”) make an explicit exception for cases where homogeneity is desirable (and always to spell out at the beginning of a sentence, to allow capitalization): that’s why I said “a prima facie application”, meaning a mechanical or ‘blind’ usage ignoring nuances of context.—Odysseus1479 (talk) 00:22, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
Tagged the offending passages at MOS:math, noting that they conflict. Further discussion can take place there, so I've closed this item here. — kwami (talk) 01:03, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- Resolved. Not really a problem, since the mathematically literate know what's needed and aren't going to argue over s.t. like this. — kwami (talk) 23:50, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Hyphen example less than ideal
At WP:HYPHEN(3), bullet 3, an example of hyphenation of proper nouns/names is given as "Trois-Rivières". I believe this is a poor example because French names are customarily hyphenated in more situations than their English equivalents. Additionally, this name, in particular, is not a compound of proper names ("3 Rivers"), and would not be hyphenated if it were in English. To put it another way, "Trois-Rivières" is hyphenated because it's French, not because it's composed of two proper nouns/names (which it isn't anyway).
I believe a different example should be used. There maybe should also be a note about the additional instances of hyphenation in French (and maybe German?) placenames (not that we want to rewrite their punctuation rules here, but advice to follow sources carefully).
Apologies if this is misplaced or was hashed out somewhere above – it's pretty hard for someone that hasn't been a part of the discussion to get through the massive volume of it. —[AlanM1(talk)]— 08:11, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- To me the entire sentence doesn't fit where it is:
- Many compounds that are hyphenated when used attributively (before the noun they qualify: a light-blue handbag), are not hyphenated when used predicatively (separated from the noun: the handbag was light blue). Hyphenation also occurs in bird names such as Great Black-backed Gull, and in proper names such as Trois-Rivières and Wilkes-Barre. Where otherwise there would be a loss of clarity, the hyphen may be used in the predicative case as well (hand-fed turkeys, the turkeys were hand-fed).
- The first and third sentences are about attributive vs. predicative uses. The middle sentence just introduces issues not relevant to the point. Great Black-backed Gull is a attributive use, no different from any other use of black-backed; the fact that it occurs in the name of a bird is immaterial. Trois-Rivières is an example of French or French-Canadian punctuation. Wilkes-Barre relates to the punctuation of compound English surnames. I would remove the second sentence entirely, and add other points to deal with:
- Cases where common names of organisms use hyphens which would not otherwise occur. Thus the Botanical Society of the British Isles issues a standard list of common names for plants which requires the use of hyphens in a principled way (and also the use of capitals, but don't let's go there!). Thus Parietaria judaica has the common name "Pellitory-of-the-wall".
- The use of hyphens in names taken from other languages: I guess the general rule should be to follow a reliable source in that language.
- The use of hyphens in compound names of a single person as opposed to compounds of the names of multiple people.
- Peter coxhead (talk) 12:48, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Eliminating the second sentence would remove one of the most common cases where hyphens are used - in names. There are no known cases where endashes instead of hyphens do/do not appear in names, of course, but if there were some, they could be mentioned - at least if there were a lot of them. Walmart used to be spelled with an asterisk, Wal*mart (WAL★MART), but there is no reason for adding the only exception known to a guideline. The reason I added Wilkes-Barre as an example was because Trois-Rivières was a good example, because hyphenation is often used in French names, but it is my guess that Three Rivers would not be hyphenated if it was a city name - but to show that there are also English names that use a hyphen. And of course I would recommend adding Seattle-Tacoma International Airport, or Aspen-Pitkin County Airport, or Dillant-Hopkins Airport as the second example. But Julia Louis-Dreyfus is a much more well recognized example. I am not aware of any name choosing a hyphen because of the parts of speech involved - noun phrases and adjective phrases alike end up with hyphens in names. Hyphenated flowers appear so rarely that they do not need to be included. Birds yes, because we have four thousand examples of hyphenated bird names. There are maybe a few hundred each airports and comets that are hyphenated, and I am not sure that an example from such a small group needs to be included. How many wars are there that are hyphenated? A dozen? Less than a hundred?
- How about moving the second sentence to after the third, and replacing it with "Hyphens are also used in bird names such as Great Black-backed Gull, and in proper names such as Trois-Rivières and Wilkes-Barre, or in Julia Louis-Dreyfus." Apteva (talk) 14:23, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Please look again at what I actually wrote. My suggestion is to remove the second sentence from that particular bullet point because it has nothing to do with the purpose of the bullet point and just confuses it. Wilkes-Barre and Trois-Rivières have nothing to do with attributive vs. predicative usages. I'm suggesting that the issues raised by the three examples in the second sentence get their own separate bullet points. I can only repeat (for at least the third time) that it is totally irrelevant that Black-backed Gull is a bird name, as the compound adjective "black-backed" would usually be hyphenated anyway. If there is a bird name example like Pellitory-of-the-wall, i.e. where as a name it is hyphenated but would not be if the phrase were not used as a name, then I agree that this would be a better example for a new bullet point. I don't know one but then I'm not a "birder". Peter coxhead (talk) 17:15, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
Peter is correct here. We don't need to delete those examples, but they are off-topic and should be moved to their own bullet point. A bullet about attributive hyphenation should give examples of attributive hyphenation, and contrast with predicative non-hyphenation. Words hyphenated for other reasons should appear under other bullet points. That's simply a matter of being coherent.
The original wording made sense. It was:
- Many compound adjectives that are hyphenated when used attributively (before the noun they qualify: a light-blue handbag), are not hyphenated when used predicatively (after the noun: the handbag was light blue); this attributive hyphenation also occurs in proper names, such as Great Black-backed Gull. Where there would be a loss of clarity, the hyphen may be used in the predicative case too (hand-fed turkeys, the turkeys were hand-fed).
Except of course that 'Great Black-backed Gull' is not a proper name, it's just a capitalized name, which is why it was changed: [7] Unfortunately, rather than simply addressing the point of capitalized name ≠ proper name, irrelevant info was added. (Why in the world would we single out bird names? Later edit summaries suggest this was collateral damage from a dispute about bird names being or not being proper names, which had nothing to do with hyphenation.) I suggest we (1) revert to the original wording but change 'proper' to 'capitalized', (2) delete the example altogether, or (3) find an actual proper name that includes attributive hyphenation. I would favor (1) as being the minimal change. — kwami (talk) 18:14, 19 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sensible ideas, Kwami. Tony (talk) 02:45, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- Sounds good to me, too. The hyphenated person-name should still appear in an example someplace, but carefully so that nobody will in the future confuse it with saying that en dashes don't also have a role in some proper names. Dicklyon (talk) 05:04, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I too strongly support Kwami's ideas. If it's thought that it's too large a change to delete the bird name example, I suggest the neutral "... this attributive hyphenation also occurs in the common names of species, such as Great Black-backed Gull." This is then correct regardless of whether it is capitalized; capitalization is irrelevant and so should not be mentioned. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:16, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- But species has nothing to do with it either. Yes, there's no rational reason not to remove the example, but this isn't about reason. If I remember correctly, there was a big fight over hyphenating capitalized names like this: because the MOS didn't specifically say we *can* hyphenate them, that means we can't, so we added this example to counter that argument. Idiotic, of course, but much of the MOS has been written in response to idiotic objections. — kwami (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that species has nothing to do with it either. But if you leave the example there and explicitly say "capitalized" then you will stir up the whole issue of capitalizing species names. By "neutral" I only meant that my wording avoids both the arguments about species names being proper names and the arguments about capitalizing species names. Changing from "proper" to "capitalized" just replaces one problem by another. Peter coxhead (talk) 00:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a problem, because this is not a section on capitalization. Some sources capitalize species names. We're merely pointing out that that has nothing to do with hyphenation. If you have some other example that would work better, we could try that. Or maybe we could just delete it altogether and hope that doesn't invite the argument back. — kwami (talk) 01:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- But if the MOS explicitly mentions capitalizing species names here, this will be read (or so I believe) by some of those on both sides of the argument as endorsing capitalization of species names. Cf. your point above about countering idiotic objections. My suggestion: let's delete it for now. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:07, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I have no problem with deletion, or would could use a hyphenated non-bird species topic, such as Gilded tube-nosed bat. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:26, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I've now used this example. I've also added a short sentence elsewhere on hyphenation in other languages using the "Trois-Rivières" example which was otherwise lost. I've also put back the "Wilkes-Barre" example as a bullet point on hyphenated personal names – otherwise this use only occurs negatively in the en-dash section. I think that all the important material in the original confused bullet point is now there but better organized. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Removed the sp. example, which has now become a distraction. We could just as easily add a sentence about purses, or automobiles, all equally pointless but implying there's a point.
- Wilkes-Barre is not a personal name. — kwami (talk) 18:10, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- It's good that this is a collaborative effort! I did once know that, but had lost sight of it... Peter coxhead (talk) 23:31, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- Ok, I've now used this example. I've also added a short sentence elsewhere on hyphenation in other languages using the "Trois-Rivières" example which was otherwise lost. I've also put back the "Wilkes-Barre" example as a bullet point on hyphenated personal names – otherwise this use only occurs negatively in the en-dash section. I think that all the important material in the original confused bullet point is now there but better organized. Peter coxhead (talk) 13:51, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I have no problem with deletion, or would could use a hyphenated non-bird species topic, such as Gilded tube-nosed bat. -- JHunterJ (talk) 12:26, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- But if the MOS explicitly mentions capitalizing species names here, this will be read (or so I believe) by some of those on both sides of the argument as endorsing capitalization of species names. Cf. your point above about countering idiotic objections. My suggestion: let's delete it for now. Peter coxhead (talk) 12:07, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a problem, because this is not a section on capitalization. Some sources capitalize species names. We're merely pointing out that that has nothing to do with hyphenation. If you have some other example that would work better, we could try that. Or maybe we could just delete it altogether and hope that doesn't invite the argument back. — kwami (talk) 01:59, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that species has nothing to do with it either. But if you leave the example there and explicitly say "capitalized" then you will stir up the whole issue of capitalizing species names. By "neutral" I only meant that my wording avoids both the arguments about species names being proper names and the arguments about capitalizing species names. Changing from "proper" to "capitalized" just replaces one problem by another. Peter coxhead (talk) 00:53, 21 October 2012 (UTC)
- But species has nothing to do with it either. Yes, there's no rational reason not to remove the example, but this isn't about reason. If I remember correctly, there was a big fight over hyphenating capitalized names like this: because the MOS didn't specifically say we *can* hyphenate them, that means we can't, so we added this example to counter that argument. Idiotic, of course, but much of the MOS has been written in response to idiotic objections. — kwami (talk) 23:59, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Wilkes-Barre
As the city was named after Mssrs. Wilkes and Barre, our normal hyphenation/dashing rules would dictate an en-dash, but by convention the city's name is hyphenated. It seems like this ought to be mentioned somewhere, either as an explicit exception or with an accompanying rule to explain the seeming contradiction. Powers T 13:46, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- No, ENDASH would dictate a hyphen, because it's not a union of two cities like Minneapolis–Saint Paul. Wilkes-Barre is no different than a person named after their two parents: double-barrelled names take a hyphen because they name single individuals.
- How about we add:
- Wilkes-Barre, a single city named after two people, but Minneapolis–Saint Paul, a union of two cities
- I maintain that ENDASH would normally dictate an en-dash, because it is something named after two individuals, like Comet Hale–Bopp or Michelson–Morley experiment. Regardless, this disagreement illustrates why we need to restore it as an example. Powers T 15:44, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- Comets names are a very bad example because they don't follow English compound rules, they follow IAU's naming guidelines. That's why we have "Singer Brewster" named after "Singer-Brewster". Or "Bally-Clayton" named after Bally-Urban and Clayton. There are no rules in English compound construction that could possibly result in such names. See #Comet_Hale-Bopp for examples and quotes. --Enric Naval (talk) 16:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- But the fact that so many books and journals use en dash in Hale–Bopp (and sometimes hyphen in 105P/Singer-Brewster is good evidence that the IAU has not succeeding in taking over the typographic style guidance of even the astronomy field, much less the general press. Dicklyon (talk) 17:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- That token of 105P/Singer-Brewster might be a simple error. But using an en dash requires special effort. — kwami (talk) 17:17, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- Dicklyon, please don't use isolated examples to make broad inaccurate statements about a field...... In the section above I provided several RS about IAU being the sole naming authority, dictating not just the name, but also the spelling and the transliteration. --Enric Naval (talk) 17:34, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- That token of 105P/Singer-Brewster might be a simple error. But using an en dash requires special effort. — kwami (talk) 17:17, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- But the fact that so many books and journals use en dash in Hale–Bopp (and sometimes hyphen in 105P/Singer-Brewster is good evidence that the IAU has not succeeding in taking over the typographic style guidance of even the astronomy field, much less the general press. Dicklyon (talk) 17:38, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- In Kwami's example, I suggest "combination" or "conurbation" or "group" or some other word rather than "union", which might be read as implying that the cities have merged. --142.205.241.254 (talk) 23:02, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
Since this subsection is now about proper names, rather than just place names, I think we should repeat our example for people:
- John Lennard-Jones, an individual named after two parents
— kwami (talk) 17:25, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Orderly discussions; orderly procedures
What are some simple guidelines for us editors to keep in mind when we post to this talk page or to any of the other talk pages related to matters of style? I am visualizing an itemized list of one-line principles, for the purpose of promoting orderly discussions and orderly procedures. The list (of perhaps no more than 10 items) can be programmed to appear above the edit window for each of the relevant talk pages. The items are separate from the points listed in the present page notice. Even if that use of it is not to be, I still hope to encourage a polite discussion of those principles here. Here, I list some guidelines.
- Please record a clear, informative edit summary for each edit that you make.
- If you are starting a new section, please choose a brief, informative heading.
- If you are starting a new subsection, please include (in the subheading) a reference to the main heading.
- Please read and post with correct indentation. (See WP:INDENT.)
- Please close each post with a signature and a timestamp.
—Wavelength (talk) 16:32, 23 October 2012 (UTC) and 03:30, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
Here are links to two archived discussions about informative section headings.
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 114#Informative headings, subheadings, sub-subheadings, etc. (February and March 2010)
- Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive 120#Informative headings and subheadings (March 2011)
—Wavelength (talk) 02:46, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
Dillant–Hopkins Airport
Unmove request at Talk:Dillant–Hopkins_Airport#Requested_move. This case seems similar to Wilkes-Barre, a single entity named after two people, rather than an airport serving two cities. I would not have moved it to a dash myself. (Of course, "Dillant-Hopkins Airport" would suggest that it's named after some guy named Dillant-Hopkins.) However, the reason given for moving it back, that "all airports use a hyphen, not an endash", is spurious, and it certainly should not be moved on that logic. The airport itself can't decide how to punctuate. I don't know if that's because they feel a hyphen doesn't capture the relation, or if it's simply an esthetic choice. (I suspect the latter, given the distribution of the two formats.) — kwami (talk) 18:46, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- If there was a place named Dillant-Hopkins, like Wilkes-Barre, the hyphen would make sense; or if there was a person Dillant-Hopkins, as you say. But otherwise, the hyphen doesn't make sense. I would be fine with "Dillant Hopkins Airport", which is what their sign says. Dicklyon (talk) 22:21, 23 October 2012 (UTC)
- That's the conflict inherent in using a few punctuation marks for an entire language. There are always going to be cases which are ambiguous. This seems to be one of them. "Wilkes-Barre", after all, is a place named after two people, just like the airport, and we have it with a hyphen. So you could argue it either way. Using a space may be a good solution.
- Currently the MOS allows an exception for simple compound proper names, such as "X-Y". Attributive use, such as here, is still dashed "X–Y Z" in our examples. So I think you're correct in your reading. Personally, I think this type of name might be worth making an additional exception, but we'd need a discussion to establish the new dividing line between dash and hyphen. — kwami (talk) 01:10, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree some clarification is in order. My impression was that Mr. or Mrs. X-Y and city or country X-Y used hyphens, but that law, airports, etc., named after pairs of persons or pairs of cities used en dash (Richmond–San Rafael Bridge, Bose–Einstein statistics, Hartsfield–Jackson Atlanta International Airport, Dallas–Fort Worth International Airport). Dicklyon (talk) 20:47, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
- I see that Dicklyon is busy renaming all airports to dashed versions despite opposition, and removing any counter-examples:
- Apparently, if you can't agree to a change in the WT:MOS, then the proper thing to do is cramming the change own everyone's throats. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:49, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
- I'm unclear on what you're saying that I'm doing. Did I move something to an en-dashed title against what the MOS says some place? Did I remove counter-examples of something? Of what? What are the two linked articles examples of? Did we not end up with these at appropriate common names? Dicklyon (talk) 06:54, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
Italic section headers?
Is there a rule either for or against italicizing section headings? See this example. I couldn't find anything under MOS:HEAD or WP:ITALIC either way. Fortdj33 (talk) 18:56, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I searched a little for explicit guidance, but did not find it. However, italics are used in article titles and also in article text, so use of italics in section headings certainly seems reasonable.
- During the past few weeks, I have been checking categories of articles for various errors, including errors of capitalization, often detecting such errors by merely glancing at an article's table of contents. Where italicization distinguishes a specific name from a generic expression, then decisions about capitalization are often easier. Unfortunately, I have found many articles where neither the section headings nor the articles' texts provide enough clues, and in those cases I almost always have left the letter case condition as I found it. In a few cases, I have corrected the letter case in only the headings where I was certain, doing so at the risk of giving a possibly false impression that I was leaving no headings uncorrected. Some categories are especially prone to ambiguity about official status of names or expressions.
- —Wavelength (talk) 20:59, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
- I agree that the italic headings seem reasonable for titles that would be italicized in the the text. Thanks for working on the caps errors. I, too, find that a glace at the TOC usually gives a good indication of whether an article has been gone over by someone who knows about MOS:CAPS or not. Dicklyon (talk) 22:03, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
Assistance with WP:ALLEGE
Hi,
I am having a discussion about the meaning of WP:ALLEGE at Talk:White privilege. The examples given in the policy refer to "individuals accused of crimes" but another editor maintains that it may also refer to ethnic groups, in keeping with their edits to the White privilege article.
Additional context is needed, as I believe that the addition of "alleged" to the lede paragraph of the article unnecessarily implies that ideas central to critical race theory (which the article is about) are somehow illegitimate.
Thanks in advance.
UseTheCommandLine (talk) 08:25, 1 November 2012 (UTC)