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[[User:AnomieBOT]] hasn't added a header for July 1 yet. Did it get confused by the [[Leap second]]? [[User:LukeSurl|LukeSurl]]<sup> [[User Talk:LukeSurl|t]] [[Special:Contributions/LukeSurl|c]]</sup> 17:11, 1 July 2012 (UTC) |
[[User:AnomieBOT]] hasn't added a header for July 1 yet. Did it get confused by the [[Leap second]]? [[User:LukeSurl|LukeSurl]]<sup> [[User Talk:LukeSurl|t]] [[Special:Contributions/LukeSurl|c]]</sup> 17:11, 1 July 2012 (UTC) |
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*I posted a message on AnomieBOT's talk page to see if Anomie can resolve it. What happened is Wikipedia was having server lag issues because of a bug caused by the leap second. AnomieBOT, like other bots, don't edit when lag times are high to avoid making it worse. Because of this, AnomieBOT never added July 1. When the lag issues were resolved, it was July 2, and AnomieBOT must have skipped over July 1st and posted July 2 because of this. -- <span style="background:#000000">'''[[User:Anc516|<span style="color:#FFFF00">Anc516</span>]]'''</span> ([[User talk:Anc516|Talk]] ▪ [[Special:Contributions/Anc516|Contribs]]) 05:08, 2 July 2012 (UTC) |
*I posted a message on AnomieBOT's talk page to see if Anomie can resolve it. What happened is Wikipedia was having server lag issues because of a bug caused by the leap second. AnomieBOT, like other bots, don't edit when lag times are high to avoid making it worse. Because of this, AnomieBOT never added July 1. When the lag issues were resolved, it was July 2, and AnomieBOT must have skipped over July 1st and posted July 2 because of this. -- <span style="background:#000000">'''[[User:Anc516|<span style="color:#FFFF00">Anc516</span>]]'''</span> ([[User talk:Anc516|Talk]] ▪ [[Special:Contributions/Anc516|Contribs]]) 05:08, 2 July 2012 (UTC) |
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== "State of Palestine" == |
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Hello. I could not help but to notice that on the main page there is a blurb that says, "UNESCO lists the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem as the State of Palestine's first World Heritage Site." There is no such thing as the State of Palestine. The issue is current subject to international process and negotiation. Why is Wikipedia making political statements? [[Special:Contributions/134.241.58.253|134.241.58.253]] ([[User talk:134.241.58.253|talk]]) 19:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC) |
Revision as of 19:33, 3 July 2012
In the news toolbox |
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Call for participation in PhD research
Appologies for posting this on the ITN talk page, but I am looking for ITN and current events´ people to participate in a doctoral research in sociology. Your participation would include answering around 10 simple questions via e-mail. I am interested in your editing experiences.
All those interested can contact me via e-mail or through my talk page.
Please respond! Your participation is vital!
Max Weber83 (talk) 16:32, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
ITN and NEVENT
In considering the ITN "2012 Indonesian boat disaster" item, I worry that there's something in ITN that encourages people to create articles on breaking events without considering the guideline for notability of events.
2012 Indonesian boat disaster is an example of an article that I cannot see surviving a notability challenge in the future (barring any radical gov't policy changes in the future that result from this event, which I just don't see happening given the politics involved). Similarly, 13 June 2012 Iraq attacks was highlighted recently (again, a completely fair ITN item) but that article is going nowhere. That holds true for the bulk of the other attacks that exist in Template:Campaignbox Iraq War terrorism included on that page.
To show why this can be a problem, we get ITN's like 2012 Toulouse hostage crisis, which really really is far from any sort of notability on the day it happened, much less a few days since. Nothing against Eugen who created both the ITN and the article, but that's the scenario that I see happening more and more. ITN should avoid that encouragement.
I realize that the time scale NEVENT asks to consider (enduring coverage using taking days or weeks to affirm) exceeds the timescale that ITN works along (hours or days), and trying to ask ITN to be crystal-ball gazing whether an event that truly merits an ITN item will ultimately be notable. But I would like to see if we can encourage that if people are reporting on something that happens with some reasonable frequency (for better or worse), that such articles should be created in lists that are designed for that purpose; at some point after the ITN's expired the event may turn out to be notable and a separate article definitely called for but again. I don't think ITN can force this, but it should try to discourage the practice of making an event related article just to offer an ITN. ITN's can point to existing articles and/or sections of them, they don't require a separate article.
Note that I'm not saying that ITN need to page-patrol/CSD/AFD event-related articles that get put up for ITN, but that when considering or crafting ITN, we avoid the race to create an article just because we want the ITN credit. --MASEM (t) 19:13, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
- this is probably worthy of a Wikipedia-wide RfC or something. People just rush to create any and all articles, some of it as mob justice such as in the case of student Alexandra Wallace, the Omar Thornton shooting (renamed to be about the shooting, considered notable due to being the worst shooting in Connecticut history), and some random hostage crisis with a teenager in a high school that ended up shooting himself (fortunately, that went down in AFD without trouble). These, of course, are in no way even close to ITN candidates, but I think you're touching on a systematic growing problem with Wikipedia that may/may not hit a boiling point soon.
- We seem to do a little better with deciding which mass killers deserve their own separate article, but it seems like nobody really knows when they've crossed the "line" when they become notable enough separate from the event, and there's endless debating about when that's occurred, and it happens every time a mass shooting happens.
- the problem with the Toulouse crisis is that it was started before it was over, and ended up being not much of an incident. However, on the other side of the coin it's preposterous to assume that the "event needs to be over," one example being the 2008 Mumbai attacks, which was clearly shaping up to be a major incident in Indian history even before it was over. We probably have dozens of "boat sinking" articles too with no long-term notability prospects. hbdragon88 (talk) 20:04, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yea, there's a balance here. Jimmy Wales has praised us in the past for jumping onto fast breaking current events and developing comprehensive coverage for them. We shouldn't be blocking of that for the big things like the Mumbai attacks, the Japan tsumani last year, etc.
- The balance that ITN might be able to provide is that save for a few select times, the time delta from a ITN/C creation to posted is usually 6 hrs or more. We want to post timely news, but we aren't a news tracker, and I think we can spend the extra few hours here at ITN to assure that an event really is an event to be included. And that to that end, without getting too involved in the article creation process, ITN maybe can say, with that short pause "Hey, this is really an ITN event but that article about it isn't likely to go anywhere, can we merge it into X?" or the like. It's ok for ITN to be wrong if it turns out to be notable and a separate article is warranted, but we should simply be more cautious of editors that create articles just to get the ITN credit. People that are really that interested in news should remember that Wikinews exists for that reason alone. --MASEM (t) 20:14, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
- Every single episode of Deep Space Nine has it's own article. I'm a fan of DS9 and of Ronald D Moore but I just can't think that Laxwana Troi chasing Odo around is somehow more noteworthy than either the Indonesian boat disaster or the latest Baghdad bombing. Hell, some random highschool in California was just posted to TFA. Let me know if an RfC goes up regarding this so I can comment. Thanks. --IP98 (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, to argue against that, many television articles are leftovers of our pre-notability days; we have slowly been trimming back coverage of TV episodes that otherwise don't have critical reviews. But on the point of events, WP:NEVENTS was already developed about 1.5 yr ago out of a long RFC to restrict articles on events to those with enduring notability, so this is not something new. Remember, we've long had advice that WP is WP:NOTNEWS and why Wikinews exists. --MASEM (t) 22:23, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- South Park gets an article for every episode, they just have a "reception" section now. I think any ITN nom which got covered by a WP:RS would automatically pass notability. --IP98 (talk) 00:01, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- That's not the way notability works. We're looking for secondary sources (eg the ability to generate a reception section) for coverage which is a stricter requirement than just being in reliable sources. Events that have some time of lasting effect will have that, but not every random disaster, even ones that do result in death, will have this. That's why Wikinews exists to cover news stories, but we exist here on WP to distill events down to ones that have some type of longer-term impact that is noted in secondary sources. --MASEM (t) 00:11, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- South Park gets an article for every episode, they just have a "reception" section now. I think any ITN nom which got covered by a WP:RS would automatically pass notability. --IP98 (talk) 00:01, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Actually, to argue against that, many television articles are leftovers of our pre-notability days; we have slowly been trimming back coverage of TV episodes that otherwise don't have critical reviews. But on the point of events, WP:NEVENTS was already developed about 1.5 yr ago out of a long RFC to restrict articles on events to those with enduring notability, so this is not something new. Remember, we've long had advice that WP is WP:NOTNEWS and why Wikinews exists. --MASEM (t) 22:23, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- Every single episode of Deep Space Nine has it's own article. I'm a fan of DS9 and of Ronald D Moore but I just can't think that Laxwana Troi chasing Odo around is somehow more noteworthy than either the Indonesian boat disaster or the latest Baghdad bombing. Hell, some random highschool in California was just posted to TFA. Let me know if an RfC goes up regarding this so I can comment. Thanks. --IP98 (talk) 21:48, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
Please do not - oppose due to ITN/R
I boldly removed this recently added item from "Please do not". It was added in good faith by Bzweebl [1]. It is the only "Please do not" item which explicitly discourages a line of reasoning. I'm therefore seeking community consensus on the item "Please do not ... oppose an item because it is not on WP:ITN/R" --IP98 (talk) 21:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- Oppose We should not discourage editors from a particular line of reasoning. The posting admins are not robots. Every argument is considered. Regarding this particular item, ITN/R exists so that certain events get an automatic "pass" on the notability clause. If an event is routine (such as a sporting event), but it is not listed on ITN/R, and the occurrence of this event was not notable in it's own right, then I generally oppose it. Other editors might argue that the occurrence was notable. Ultimately an admin will decide. --IP98 (talk) 21:56, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- The reason this needed to come about is because Tariqabjotu was removing items from ITN/R that had consensus, just not a strong one. The level of consensus needed for an item to be ITN/R is much greater than for it to be posted, so if the event happens and even if there was nothing special that year, it should not be disregarded because it is not ITN/R. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 22:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- This has nothing to do with items removed from ITN/R. It has to do with people being told that "not being on ITN/R is not a valid reason to oppose". That may be the case, but it's up to the posting admin to decide. We can't go and start outlawing lines of reasoning with which we disagree. --IP98 (talk) 00:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- The premise that a recurring event's omission from ITN/R automatically reflects a determination that it's insufficiently notable is factually incorrect. But such an event might actually be insufficiently notable, so the instruction actually assists users with that "line of reasoning" by encouraging them to argue this instead of relying upon a related rationale stemming from (and spreading) misunderstanding, which almost certainly will be set aside by the administrator gauging consensus. —David Levy 01:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- This has nothing to do with items removed from ITN/R. It has to do with people being told that "not being on ITN/R is not a valid reason to oppose". That may be the case, but it's up to the posting admin to decide. We can't go and start outlawing lines of reasoning with which we disagree. --IP98 (talk) 00:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- The reason this needed to come about is because Tariqabjotu was removing items from ITN/R that had consensus, just not a strong one. The level of consensus needed for an item to be ITN/R is much greater than for it to be posted, so if the event happens and even if there was nothing special that year, it should not be disregarded because it is not ITN/R. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 22:28, 26 June 2012 (UTC)
- Depending on precisely how the argument is constructed an oppose based on lack of ITN/R status may carry some weight. A simple "It's not ITN/R therefore it shouldn't be posted" probably doesn't count for much, but if the issue is one of balance it may carry more weight, e.g. "We already have eight furble-throwing championships listed on ITN/R, that's more than enough already, so we don't need to compound the issue by posting lesser championships". Discriminating between the two is the job of the posting admin. This whole discussion is IMHO based on a vote-counting idea of consensus which we try to steer clear of. Editors may come to their views based on whatever criteria they see fit - hell you can oppose because the letter Q does not appear in the blurb if you like - the admin's job is to judge precisely what those arguments are worth. Crispmuncher (talk) 05:03, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
- I've undone the removal. You just linked to the discussion in which you were the only one to oppose the text's addition, so I don't understand why you've decided to simultaneously disregard it and "[seek] community consensus" on the very same talk page.
Your "line of reasoning" is based upon the incorrect premise that any event not listed at ITN/R has been deemed insufficiently notable (except in extraordinary circumstances). That simply isn't true. Some events are borderline, some have never been proposed, and some might not be included until they've actually appeared in ITN. (This has been cited as a criterion by some, which creates a catch-22 if recurring events are excluded because of their absence from ITN/R.)
If you believe that a recurring event has been omitted from ITN/R because it isn't sufficiently notable, you're welcome to cite the insufficient notability as the basis of your opposition. "Not listed at ITN/R", while possibly indicative of a valid exclusion rationale, is not one in and of itself. —David Levy 23:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)- The original discussion was initiated after the initial change by Bzweebl. There was no discussion prior to it's addition. The subject for the change was "note". I'm not going to start a revert war. I consider your reversion premature, unfair and confrontational. --IP98 (talk) 00:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
The discussion was initiated after the initial change by Bzweebl. There was no discussion prior to it's addition.
How is that relevant now? At the time, had you (or anyone else) reverted the text's insertion pending consensus in its favor (WP:BRD), that would have been reasonable. Instead, it was retained during the discussion, in which no one other than you expressed opposition to its presence. Suddenly, long after the discussion's conclusion, you've decided to disregard it and initiate a new one.The subject for the change was "note".
If you felt that this was inadequate, why didn't you change it (or even convey an objection) at the time?I consider your reversion premature, unfair and confrontational.
I'm sorry that you feel that way. I consider your reversion (of the text's insertion) ill-timed and inappropriate as well, but I won't accuse you of being "confrontational". —David Levy 01:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I agree with your second point, I just don't think we need to codify "invalid rationale". I personally think "most popular sport in the world" is a terrible rationale, but I'm not in the business of outlawing such things. --IP98 (talk) 00:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- There's a material distinction between a rationale with which one disagrees and one based upon an assumption that's factually incorrect (and propagates the misunderstanding). —David Levy 01:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- The original discussion was initiated after the initial change by Bzweebl. There was no discussion prior to it's addition. The subject for the change was "note". I'm not going to start a revert war. I consider your reversion premature, unfair and confrontational. --IP98 (talk) 00:39, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I don't think this is a helpful notice. It seems equivalent to junk mail. Nominations should obviously not be opposed purely on the grounds that an event is not listed at ITNR, but I don't believe it is a regular occurrence that editors make such opposes. It seems like an answer to a problem that doesn't exist and, to any editor who isn't a regular here, it's just an unnecessary item of information that they need to make sense of when contributing (i.e. a minor barrier to participation). Formerip (talk) 00:36, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- There has been a growing practice for people to oppose an item if it is not ITN/R unless something out of the ordinary happened. Some comments from three nominations that I remembered: Not ITNR, and barring a really unexpected result or incident, I'm leaning against posting this year's Giro. We already have Premier League for the UK on ITNR, so for this to go up, then 2011-2012 cup has to have been out of the ordinary. Was there an upset? Some scandal? Disqualification? What? As already noted, soccer does seem to have an awful lot of championships. If it's not in ITNR, it needs a pretty good explanation of why this occurrence is special. Oh come on! As has been previously pointed out, it's not ITNR, so you need to explain WHY it's "An important and historic event". So there's nothing special about this years comp compared with other years. It's not in ITNR. So not notable. This is not ITNR, and pretty much every year something makes these annual events (not just this one) special. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 01:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Without digging out the context, none of those comments look like they are opposes solely on the basis that something isn't ITNR, and some of them look like reasonable requests for an explanation as to why a particular event should be considered significant enough to post. "It's not on ITNR so please explain to me why I am supposed to think it is important" is absolutely valid. Even in the case of bad opposes (e.g. "It's not in ITNR. So not notable."), I don't see why this is an area that requires a specific instruction as compared to the various other poor rationales that ITNC gets on a regular basis. Formerip (talk) 01:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
Even in the case of bad opposes (e.g. "It's not in ITNR. So not notable."), I don't see why this is an area that requires a specific instruction as compared to the various other poor rationales that ITNC gets on a regular basis.
Unlike most invalid rationales (e.g. "I'm not familiar with this event, so it obviously isn't very popular."), the premise that any recurring event not listed at ITN/R has been deemed insufficiently notable seems entirely plausible, so users encountering such a claim are likely to assume that it's accurate and incorporate it into their standards.
And if an event actually is insufficiently notable, the instruction assists users by encouraging them to argue this instead of relying upon a related rationale stemming from misunderstanding (which almost certainly will be set aside by the administrator gauging consensus). —David Levy 01:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)- Your reply only seems to apply to the third comment, and even that one is operating under the incorrect assumption that if the event is not ITN/R, it needs something special beyond the occurrence of the event. You do not need to provide reasoning for the occurrence of an event you think is notable by itself, so those types of requests for something special about the event are invalid. You can still support an event that is not on ITN/R even if your only reasoning is that it occurred and you think its occurrence alone is notable. And sorry for my use of the generic you. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 01:47, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Everything nominated for ITN needs something special beyond the occurrence of the event. "It's not ITNR, so tell me why it is important" is effectively the same as "tell me why it's important".
On the other hand a bald "It's not ITNR so I oppose it" is invalid. But that's very rarely done, I think. Not commonly enough for us to make a song and dance about it. Formerip (talk) 02:14, 27 June 2012 (UTC)- "It's not ITNR, so tell me why it is important" is also unacceptable, and I already showed that "It's not ITNR so I oppose it" is fairly common. See my previous comment. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 02:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with you regarding "It's not ITNR, so tell me why it is important." While this might give others the wrong idea, its writer probably means "Its notability hasn't already been established, so please do so now." This sentiment is even clearer in the actual comment quoted above ("As has been previously pointed out, it's not ITNR, so you need to explain WHY it's 'An important and historic event'."). —David Levy 02:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- You're right, "It's not ITNR, so tell me why it is important" doesn't have any problematic connotations, but that is different than the actual comment quoted, it seems that the editor was saying the event needed something special besides its recurrence because it wasn't ITN/R, or why this particular occurence was "an important and historic event." Otherwise the comment wouldn't add anything to the discussion, which is a possibility. It excludes trying to make a case for why the recurrence of the event is notable, so it should be invalid. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 02:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- If you're referring to HiLo48's comments collectively, I agree. You also quoted his following post ("So there's nothing special about this years comp compared with other years. It's not in ITNR. So not notable."), which is a clear-cut example of the problem. —David Levy 04:06, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- You're right, "It's not ITNR, so tell me why it is important" doesn't have any problematic connotations, but that is different than the actual comment quoted, it seems that the editor was saying the event needed something special besides its recurrence because it wasn't ITN/R, or why this particular occurence was "an important and historic event." Otherwise the comment wouldn't add anything to the discussion, which is a possibility. It excludes trying to make a case for why the recurrence of the event is notable, so it should be invalid. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 02:54, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I disagree with you regarding "It's not ITNR, so tell me why it is important." While this might give others the wrong idea, its writer probably means "Its notability hasn't already been established, so please do so now." This sentiment is even clearer in the actual comment quoted above ("As has been previously pointed out, it's not ITNR, so you need to explain WHY it's 'An important and historic event'."). —David Levy 02:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
On the other hand a bald "It's not ITNR so I oppose it" is invalid. But that's very rarely done, I think. Not commonly enough for us to make a song and dance about it.
The discussion's initiator has plainly stated that he/she "generally oppose[s]" a recurring event's nomination for this reason. I've seen the issue raised enough times by enough editors to be convinced that a small note is justified. —David Levy 02:37, 27 June 2012 (UTC)- Really? How many time have you seen it within, say, the past seven days? Formerip (talk) 11:05, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that I've seen the problem (of editors inappropriately citing such a rationale) mentioned enough (by editors more active at ITN/C than I am) to be convinced that it's become a significant concern. The note is succinct, and I regard it as harmless at worst (and potentially quite helpful to all involved), so I don't see why the bar should be set particularly high. —David Levy 14:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I just don't think it's necessary to outlaw a line of reasoning. The posting admins aren't robots, and I consider this a thin edge of the wedge. Do you really think there is an item which had strong support but didn't go up simply because of a deluge of "not ITN/R == not notable"? --IP98 (talk) 00:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
I just don't think it's necessary to outlaw a line of reasoning.
It's advisable to discourage disruptive misrepresentation of a guideline.Do you really think there is an item which had strong support but didn't go up simply because of a deluge of "not ITN/R == not notable"?
No. As I noted, it's possible that legitimate opposition has been lost (with users arguing "not ITN/R" instead of focusing on actual evidence of insufficient notability), a problem that will worsen if the misunderstanding is permitted to spread.
Meanwhile, it's impossible to know how many events' items have gone unproposed or unsupported due to the same confusion. —David Levy 11:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- I just don't think it's necessary to outlaw a line of reasoning. The posting admins aren't robots, and I consider this a thin edge of the wedge. Do you really think there is an item which had strong support but didn't go up simply because of a deluge of "not ITN/R == not notable"? --IP98 (talk) 00:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Sorry, I was unclear. I meant that I've seen the problem (of editors inappropriately citing such a rationale) mentioned enough (by editors more active at ITN/C than I am) to be convinced that it's become a significant concern. The note is succinct, and I regard it as harmless at worst (and potentially quite helpful to all involved), so I don't see why the bar should be set particularly high. —David Levy 14:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I'm at a loss to understand why you chose to disregard the qualifier "and the occurrence of this event was not notable in it's own right". --IP98 (talk) 11:27, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- In my first reply, I noted that "your 'line of reasoning' is based upon the incorrect premise that any event not listed at ITN/R has been deemed insufficiently notable (except in extraordinary circumstances)" (emphasis added).
I understand that you might support a non-ITN/R recurring event's nomination if something special takes place, but your assumption that any event not listed at ITN/R has been deemed insufficiently notable unless something special takes place is incorrect. ITN/R is a list of recurring events whose notability has been predetermined; it isn't a list of every recurring event for which non-notability hasn't been determined. —David Levy 14:51, 27 June 2012 (UTC)- To me it's pretty clear. All items listed on ITN/R get a pass for notability, anything else has to stand on it's own. How is that not the case? What am I missing? --IP98 (talk) 00:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- You're missing the fact that a recurring event's omission from ITN/R doen't necessarily indicate that it normally isn't sufficiently notable to appear in ITN (something that might not even have been discussed). —David Levy 11:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- So it's ok to oppose a non-notable occurrence of a routine event on the grounds that it's not notable, as long as you don't mention that it's not an ITN/R item? I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I genuinely don't understand what's going on here. --IP98 (talk) 20:42, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- No, you're misunderstanding the Please Do Not note. The note is not saying you cannot oppose a routine event because it is not ITN/R and not notable, only that you cannot oppose a routine event for the sole reason that it is not ITN/R. The note makes no mention of your "non-notable occurrence" clause. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 20:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- As Bzweebl noted, you've misunderstood the instruction. It means exactly what it says: "Do not oppose an item because it is not on WP:ITN/R." (emphasis added). This doesn't bar mentioning the fact that an event isn't listed there, which can be helpful in some contexts. —David Levy 22:38, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- You're missing the fact that a recurring event's omission from ITN/R doen't necessarily indicate that it normally isn't sufficiently notable to appear in ITN (something that might not even have been discussed). —David Levy 11:48, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- To me it's pretty clear. All items listed on ITN/R get a pass for notability, anything else has to stand on it's own. How is that not the case? What am I missing? --IP98 (talk) 00:05, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- In my first reply, I noted that "your 'line of reasoning' is based upon the incorrect premise that any event not listed at ITN/R has been deemed insufficiently notable (except in extraordinary circumstances)" (emphasis added).
- Really? How many time have you seen it within, say, the past seven days? Formerip (talk) 11:05, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- "It's not ITNR, so tell me why it is important" is also unacceptable, and I already showed that "It's not ITNR so I oppose it" is fairly common. See my previous comment. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 02:18, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- Everything nominated for ITN needs something special beyond the occurrence of the event. "It's not ITNR, so tell me why it is important" is effectively the same as "tell me why it's important".
- Without digging out the context, none of those comments look like they are opposes solely on the basis that something isn't ITNR, and some of them look like reasonable requests for an explanation as to why a particular event should be considered significant enough to post. "It's not on ITNR so please explain to me why I am supposed to think it is important" is absolutely valid. Even in the case of bad opposes (e.g. "It's not in ITNR. So not notable."), I don't see why this is an area that requires a specific instruction as compared to the various other poor rationales that ITNC gets on a regular basis. Formerip (talk) 01:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- There has been a growing practice for people to oppose an item if it is not ITN/R unless something out of the ordinary happened. Some comments from three nominations that I remembered: Not ITNR, and barring a really unexpected result or incident, I'm leaning against posting this year's Giro. We already have Premier League for the UK on ITNR, so for this to go up, then 2011-2012 cup has to have been out of the ordinary. Was there an upset? Some scandal? Disqualification? What? As already noted, soccer does seem to have an awful lot of championships. If it's not in ITNR, it needs a pretty good explanation of why this occurrence is special. Oh come on! As has been previously pointed out, it's not ITNR, so you need to explain WHY it's "An important and historic event". So there's nothing special about this years comp compared with other years. It's not in ITNR. So not notable. This is not ITNR, and pretty much every year something makes these annual events (not just this one) special. Bzweebl (talk • contribs) 01:10, 27 June 2012 (UTC)
- I would support the idea that one should not use the reasoning of it not being ITNR to oppose iff being ITNR is also not used as the SOLE reason for supporting an item. Unique Ubiquitous (talk) 22:09, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- That doesn't make sense. A recurring event's inclusion at ITN/R is intended to reflect consensus that it's sufficiently notable for ITN, but a recurring event's omission from ITN/R doesn't necessarily reflect consensus that it isn't sufficiently notable for ITN. —David Levy 22:38, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- It makes sense when you realize some ITNR items should not be posted, such as elections in insignificant nations. I also stated solely, if the item really was a no brainer than the voter could easily come up with actually reasoning. Unique Ubiquitous (talk) 23:03, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
It makes sense when you realize some ITNR items should not be posted, such as elections in insignificant nations.
- That's your opinion, which doesn't outweigh consensus.
- If you believe that said consensus doesn't exist, WT:ITN/R is the proper forum in which to raise your concerns. Several events have been removed from the list for this reason.
I also stated solely, if the item really was a no brainer than the voter could easily come up with actually reasoning.
- There's nothing wrong with noting that an event's inclusion is backed by consensus. Users sometimes do this even when they don't personally agree. —David Levy 23:16, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- It makes sense when you realize some ITNR items should not be posted, such as elections in insignificant nations. I also stated solely, if the item really was a no brainer than the voter could easily come up with actually reasoning. Unique Ubiquitous (talk) 23:03, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
- That doesn't make sense. A recurring event's inclusion at ITN/R is intended to reflect consensus that it's sufficiently notable for ITN, but a recurring event's omission from ITN/R doesn't necessarily reflect consensus that it isn't sufficiently notable for ITN. —David Levy 22:38, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Today's U.S. Supreme Court ruling in Florida v. Department of Health and Human Services
I recommend that the word "upholds" in the news item pertaining to today's U.S. Supreme Court ruling be wikilinked to Florida v. Department of Health and Human Services. Leucosticte (talk) 19:06, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- The problem is that the decision, while on that case, the case that the ruling is based on is National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius so in the discussion of posting this, it was decided not to link to either, since the PPACA page should link to both. --MASEM (t) 19:09, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
- Yeah, a merge of those articles should've been, and should now be, done. Leucosticte (talk) 20:17, 28 June 2012 (UTC)
Paraguay
How come the coup was not posted? It was certainly notable ove the head of state being ousted.I was away We could post/nom the Mercosur suspension as a make up but i dont know what article to update/start. Mercosur's would be recentism (and would grow large). Imagine Lugos article would have some, but would need a split.
- We definately need to add all the repercussions and reactions to a new article(Lihaas (talk) 12:02, 1 July 2012 (UTC)).
July 1
User:AnomieBOT hasn't added a header for July 1 yet. Did it get confused by the Leap second? LukeSurl t c 17:11, 1 July 2012 (UTC)
- I posted a message on AnomieBOT's talk page to see if Anomie can resolve it. What happened is Wikipedia was having server lag issues because of a bug caused by the leap second. AnomieBOT, like other bots, don't edit when lag times are high to avoid making it worse. Because of this, AnomieBOT never added July 1. When the lag issues were resolved, it was July 2, and AnomieBOT must have skipped over July 1st and posted July 2 because of this. -- Anc516 (Talk ▪ Contribs) 05:08, 2 July 2012 (UTC)
"State of Palestine"
Hello. I could not help but to notice that on the main page there is a blurb that says, "UNESCO lists the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem as the State of Palestine's first World Heritage Site." There is no such thing as the State of Palestine. The issue is current subject to international process and negotiation. Why is Wikipedia making political statements? 134.241.58.253 (talk) 19:33, 3 July 2012 (UTC)