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It seems to me that the evolutionary effect of this will be that, at some point in the infinite future, all the articles will end up a 50/50 mix of statements based on scientific research and ideas rooted in anti-science polemic. Global warming 'belief' may seem like a 50/50 political choice to some American voters at the moment as they have just been subjected to one of the most pernicious disinformation campaigns in history. But in the wider world, the science ''is'' settled and ''all'' relevant scientific associations and societies agree it is. 50/50 articles would be a travesty against the facts. Is this process designed to achieve 50/50 articles in a world where no one can truly judge the rights and wrongs of, say, political, religious or territorial debates? If so, I wonder if they really are the right process for this case, where the results of five to eight decades of worldwide scientific research need to be balanced against the noise made by well-funded special interest, business, political and lobby groups in a few very wealthy countries. --[[User:Nigelj|Nigelj]] ([[User talk:Nigelj|talk]]) 22:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
It seems to me that the evolutionary effect of this will be that, at some point in the infinite future, all the articles will end up a 50/50 mix of statements based on scientific research and ideas rooted in anti-science polemic. Global warming 'belief' may seem like a 50/50 political choice to some American voters at the moment as they have just been subjected to one of the most pernicious disinformation campaigns in history. But in the wider world, the science ''is'' settled and ''all'' relevant scientific associations and societies agree it is. 50/50 articles would be a travesty against the facts. Is this process designed to achieve 50/50 articles in a world where no one can truly judge the rights and wrongs of, say, political, religious or territorial debates? If so, I wonder if they really are the right process for this case, where the results of five to eight decades of worldwide scientific research need to be balanced against the noise made by well-funded special interest, business, political and lobby groups in a few very wealthy countries. --[[User:Nigelj|Nigelj]] ([[User talk:Nigelj|talk]]) 22:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
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:To be honest, Nigel, the assumption that you are dealing only with anti-science editors is one of the major problems. On [[Climate change denial]] you and a couple of others have been editing to remove all mention of any criticism of this term from the lead of that article. There is notable controversy, discussed in dozens of reliable sources. [[WP:LEAD]] clearly states that the lead should cover notable controversies. Yet, it is now being continually removed without any suggestion of what would be appropriate to include. Does an editor truly have to be anti-science to see this as a problem? It seems to be your view, and that of some others, that disagreements over NPOV in this area must come down to pro-science vs. anti-science. That is a classic battleground mentality, and absurd. Writing good article is not a simple matter of documenting the science, or a majority view. The quality of our articles runs a huge spectrum, and almost always there are ways to make improvements. The fact that qualified scientists have certain points of consensus on climate change, meanwhile, does not mean there is a consensus on every related topic such as whether public skepticism is largely a matter of "denialism." That is a political issue, not a scientific issue, for which the scientific consensus is only one of many points. [[Climate change]] should not be treated as a matter of political controversy, but [[Climate change denial]] is. The articles address different issues, and will be written entirely differently. Black and white, undifferentiated views that treat all of it in the same manner are not good enough. [[User:Mackan79|Mackan79]] ([[User talk:Mackan79|talk]]) 23:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
:To be honest, Nigel, the assumption that you are dealing only with anti-science editors is one of the major problems. On [[Climate change denial]] you and a couple of others have been editing to remove all mention of any criticism of this term from the lead of that article. There is notable controversy, discussed in dozens of reliable sources. [[WP:LEAD]] clearly states that the lead should cover notable controversies. Yet, it is now being continually removed without any suggestion of what would be appropriate to include. Does an editor truly have to be anti-science to see this as a problem? It seems to be your view, and that of some others, that disagreements over NPOV in this area must come down to pro-science vs. anti-science. That is a classic battleground mentality, and absurd. Writing good article is not a simple matter of documenting the science, or a majority view. The quality of our articles runs a huge spectrum, and almost always there are ways to make improvements. The fact that qualified scientists have certain points of consensus on climate change, meanwhile, does not mean there is a consensus on every related topic such as whether public skepticism is largely a matter of "denialism." That is a political issue, not a scientific issue, for which the scientific consensus is only one of many points. [[Climate change]] should not be treated as a matter of political controversy, but [[Climate change denial]] is. The articles address different issues, and will be written entirely differently. Black and white, undifferentiated views that treat all of it in the same manner are not good enough. [[User:Mackan79|Mackan79]] ([[User talk:Mackan79|talk]]) 23:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC) |
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::Here's my take based on my experiences participating in Wikipedia, and that's that it doesn't matter what the subject matter is. First of all, we don't take sides on any issue. Policy requires that we edit neutrally. Neutral writing means that the reader cannot tell which side the writer is taking. When we press the "edit" tab, we're committing ourselves to that principle. Second, how well do we cooperate, collaborate, and compromise with other editors in order to produce articles that are complete and NPOV? Do we try to find common ground? Do we suggest compromise solutions? Do we edit war? Do we, in a civil manner, suggest alternatives? If you think of things in these terms, then it doesn't matter which "side" anyone is on. What matters is how well each editor works with others to build content and their commitment to NPOV. [[User:Cla68|Cla68]] ([[User talk:Cla68|talk]]) 00:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 00:18, 18 March 2010
Just to keep admins here informed: There was a brief tussle about an attempt to WP:SNOWBALL close this AfD. Because events were taking place rapidly, and because there was some division here about whether or not general sanctions cover that AfD, I brought up the matter at AN/I [1] I asked there that admins keep an eye on the page. The consensus at AN/I seems to be to keep the AfD open because "Snowball" doesn't apply. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 22:10, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- The consensus at AN/I seems to be to keep the AfD open - that will be Let this train-wreck run its course, it doesn't really matter if it crashes at turn #2 or turn #7 since the crash itself an inevitability. and related William M. Connolley (talk) 22:30, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, indeed. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
- Snowball always applies, except (as here) when it doesn't work. You can never know the result until you collapse the state vector. --TS 22:41, 4 March 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough, TS; no harm, no foul there. -- JohnWBarber (talk) 00:17, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
General sanctions regime has failed
There is now a huge volume of requests for enforcements here. The sanctions regime has become a tool for editors to fight each other. It is not a system that actually resolves any conflicts leading to better and more constructive cooperation between editors. Count Iblis (talk) 21:58, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Has fighting decreased on the article pages themselves? That is the measure of success. Franamax (talk) 22:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I think it's working as well as it can. I'd still like to see bolder use of the very broad admin powers and less discussion, but it seems to me that the probation is working, because partisanship is becoming more difficult. People are setting more realistic goals and finding common ground.
There are particularly promising signs of steadily improving standards of sourcing in the coverage of the social and political debate as well as the already world-class coverage of the science. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 00:39, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
My impression is that the emotional climate of these articles is gradually cooling down. I'm not convinced it's due to the sanctions regime itself rather than the natural ebb and flow of wikidrama. I do think it greatly helps that some of the instigators have been put on furlough. For my part I'm gradually tiptoeing back into the articles, but am prepared to step back again if certain unfavorable developments occur. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:57, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I concur with Count Iblis' point on the large number of outstanding requests for enforcement. I've been waiting for some time to find out when WMC's frivolous and retaliatory complaint against me is going to be resolved.
- But to a larger issue, what are the sanctions meant to achieve? If it was to turn POV-pushing into WP:Civil POV pushing it's been a mixed bag. If it was to resolve the NPOV dispute, it's been a clear and obvious failure. I don't know what the current state of this topic space is, but I do know that the fighting is currently spilling over into the WP:RSN and WP:BLPN noticeboards. But maybe that's a good thing as it will attract more uninvolved editors? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Its purpose? As with all probations, the purpose is to end warlike behavior and restore a collegial editing environment. This is a prior requirement to resolving any other disputes. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 01:27, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- "collegial editing environment"? Then I would say that it's a failure. The disputes on these pages are among the nastiest I've seen on Wikipedia. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 01:59, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- And along those lines, I think the personal attacks and bullying that used to be rampant on the talk pages of some of those articles has noticeably declined. Revert wars have definitely declined also. Cla68 (talk) 01:35, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
My opinion is the edit wars and PA have cooled down; however, it's not clear tome the articles are improving just yet with collaboration. The sanctions themselves are not always equitable, however they are timely. I still sense ownership issue and teamed sides. The waters still seam too hot for me to enter without fear of being bitten or attacked with an edit war or further PA.Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 02:44, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Clear and obvious failure
In fact, the situation is so bad, one of the warring factions is refusing to even admit there's a POV dispute on Climatic Research Unit hacking incident.[2][3] Any admins want to look into that? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:49, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- You previously said there was hardly a POV dispute on the article - you wrote "I think that mentioning the death threats in the lede is a violation of WP:UNDUE. Sure, it's notable enough to warrant mention in the article body, but not in the lede. To be honest, it appears to be an emotional ploy to draw sympathy for the scientists," and then clarified "Yes ... Fix these two issues [the title and the death threats in the lede] and my concerns about neutrality have been addressed." Are there death threats in the lede right now? IE - your only current neutrality concern is the title? Hipocrite (talk) 18:51, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) - The proposal to remove the tag, which I made, followed a long period of both article and talk page stability. Perfectly legitimate. It's a shame AQFK chooses to battle and edit war, and now play games, rather than discuss constructively. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:54, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Even if what you're saying is true, that's further proof that the sanctions have failed, correct? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's a normal editing dispute being resolved by discussion on the talk page. What exactly would you expect to be happening at this stage? --TS 19:07, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Even if what you're saying is true, that's further proof that the sanctions have failed, correct? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:02, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Normal? I've never seen a POV dispute so bad that editors are refusing to admit that there's a POV dispute and are edit-warring to keep the POV dispute tag out of the article. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 19:34, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- As I point out on the article's talk page, The proposal to remove the POV dispute tag was made at 07:31, March 9, 2010[4] and implemented less than 4 hours later[5]. How did that give everyone enough to time discuss the issue, let alone reach a consensus? A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 20:00, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sometimes it happens that a dispute tag remains on an article long after issues have been resolved. At some point, if there are still people who are dissatisfied, what takes place then is a discussion to see whether there is, despite this, a consensus that issues have been resolved reasonably. That's what is taking place: a dispute about whether there is any remaining dispute. If it should happen that only a small number of people are now dissatisfied and the great majority are satisfied, then such a small rump cannot hold the article hostage forever, and the tag will be removed by consensus. --TS 20:05, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Considering the world has many time zones a 24 hour period sounds more reasonable than a 4 hour window. Most people sleep (or would like to sleep) around 8 hours a day.130.232.214.10 (talk) 20:25, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- It was a bit precipitate to remove it so quickly, although strong agreement formed almost immediately. In any case it will be put back if a substantive dispute remains. --TS 20:27, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I was party to a POV tag dispute on Scientific opinion on climate change that preceded the sanctions, evidence that these are continuing would indicate the sanctions are not effective here. Because, it simply takes 3 or greater editors to have a POV issue for dispute. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 20:50, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
If you can convince enough editors that a substantive point-of-view dispute still exists, then the tag will remain until whatever the dispute might be about has been resolved. What's wrong with that?
But a word of caution: "two or three editors" may make a point-of-view dispute in a small-scale discussion, but typically as the scale of the discussion broadens over time the proportion of those perceiving there to be a substantive dispute may change, until those perceiving a dispute may find themselves overwhelmed by those who see no issue.
If the sanctions were aimed at reducing point-of-view disputes, they would be misconceived and oppressive. A diverse set of editors editing an article on a controversial subject will often encounter disputes over point of view. This is to be expected and isn't anything to be concerned over. How we resolve those disputes is what matters. --TS 21:21, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Notifications
As the log page isn't watched nearly so closely as this one, I am taking the liberty of advertising a discussion recently begun on the log talk page about the notification messages (the vast majority of which have been delivered by me). Recently I've been accompanying that message with a word or two about the discussion, and a few of the recipients have responded with their views.
Please go there and let's discuss what we do about this. --TS 23:42, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Appropriate?
I'm wondering if this [6] is considered appropriate? I've asked for a retraction, of course, but it was refused, rudely [7] William M. Connolley (talk) 22:12, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- I believe it was appropriate given your constant rudeness and petty sniping, it was far less than i would like to say mark nutley (talk) 22:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Wrong spot (move ? where?)
I don't understand what LessHeard vanU means. This thread informed ScJessey about the circumstances of an edit he had just made and he asked the protecting admin to revert that edit. That is a very good result and I consider this thread to have served its purpose in restraining sharp-elbowed editing on a particularly sensitive article. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 15:03, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Sorry, it's my telephone. For some reason it posts comments intended for the main project page to this talk page instead. Tasty monster (TS on one of those new fangled telephone thingies) 15:11, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the help. I moved the comment to the appropriate part of the main project page and expanded it a bit. --TS 18:13, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Considering admins uninvolved who are involved in the content discussion
I am surprised by Stephan Schulz's comment here. He seems to say he is uninvolved, even though he has been directly involved on the content issue, because he is not in a dispute with Ratel. To the contrary he made the original edit that started the dispute, and has stopped in to support Ratel's versions. Does the probation really mean to say that editors are uninvolved even if they are directly involved in the content dispute? Mackan79 (talk) 00:30, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Stephan shouldn't be commenting in the admin-only section in this request. Out of order. Cla68 (talk) 00:35, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Honestly, he shouldn't probably comment in any of the admin sections for this enforcement page. He is obviously quite involved in CC articles (broadly construed, ooo look, arbcomspeak) Arkon (talk) 00:38, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- If we do require editors to cow-tow to the letter of the law, it should cut both ways. The way the probation is written, I am uninvolved, and Ratel can expect a specific warning before sanctions are enacted. Now possibly we should reconsider how the probation is written, but one of my aims in commenting in that section is to recall the exact stipulations for the people deliberating. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- I should probably be clear in my statement here. I don't have a particular opinion on what you wrote, just that in general, I cannot consider you uninvolved in the CC article area. Not a bad thing, just my opinion. Arkon (talk) 00:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Oh, I quite agree that I'm not common-sense uninvolved. But I am probation-uninvolved, weirdly enough. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:53, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- I should probably be clear in my statement here. I don't have a particular opinion on what you wrote, just that in general, I cannot consider you uninvolved in the CC article area. Not a bad thing, just my opinion. Arkon (talk) 00:48, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- If we do require editors to cow-tow to the letter of the law, it should cut both ways. The way the probation is written, I am uninvolved, and Ratel can expect a specific warning before sanctions are enacted. Now possibly we should reconsider how the probation is written, but one of my aims in commenting in that section is to recall the exact stipulations for the people deliberating. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:45, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Stephan's comment that WP:AGF is not a suicide pact also appears to be a personal attack, unless I am missing something. Is he seriously saying that Ratel's comments are an acceptable and justified deviation from WP:AGF? Great, let's all attack the whole concept of AGF and just start lambasting everybody with the most offensive things we can come up with. Mackan79 (talk) 00:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- By commenting as an admin in the "Results" section, Stephan is acting as an admin in this dispute, in which he is clearly involved. I'm going to report it to arbcom. Cla68 (talk) 00:47, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Stephan, I think you should take the high road and recuse yourself here. Admins need to be clearly uninvolved if the sanctions process is going to work. Even before this, Lar was stretching the limits of "uninvolved" to the breaking point; no need to make things worse. Keeping your conduct above reproach is always the best way. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 00:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Lar? Sure, if you'll add that to BozMo, Jehochman and probably Lessheard. I'm fine having 2/0 do the whole thing, or having all of them, but this is hardly acceptable, especially not without noting the extent of his involvement. Mackan79 (talk) 01:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Cripes man, Lessheard has probably been the best at following the probation. If he continues as he has, I totally plan to commend his efforts. Arkon (talk) 01:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- That wasn't a complaint, against any of them. But what is this about Lar? Consider me half impressed that Boris can recognize an administrator blatantly involved in this very disagreement, only if he can also make an irrelevant jab at another administrator for something entirely unrelated. Personally I would like to see more uninvolved admins weigh in on this request, since the perceptions of LessHeard and Jehochman seem to be quite different. Mackan79 (talk) 05:03, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Cripes man, Lessheard has probably been the best at following the probation. If he continues as he has, I totally plan to commend his efforts. Arkon (talk) 01:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Lar? Sure, if you'll add that to BozMo, Jehochman and probably Lessheard. I'm fine having 2/0 do the whole thing, or having all of them, but this is hardly acceptable, especially not without noting the extent of his involvement. Mackan79 (talk) 01:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- (Re Mackan79): Nope, I have not said such a thing. But AGF has its limits, and in this field there are certainly some editors who have less than perfect encyclopaedic interest. Not to ride a dead horse to the market, but you do remember Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Scibaby? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 00:52, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Scibaby, right. That does not have anything to do with this request. Mackan79 (talk) 01:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's evidence that there is at least one long-term concerted effort under way to disrupt the climate change articles. That does not excuse, but contributes to explaining Ratels claims. It also means that LHvUs surprise at this is hard to understand for me. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 01:27, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see how the existence of an annoying, easily spotted sock puppet excuses violations of AGF and (worse in my book) not communicating on the talk page about non-trivial changes to an article that he knows is under probation. But this has ventured pretty far afield - the idea that he without sin be the only administrator involved is a little silly because CC has generated so many admin requests that you're going to be hard pressed to find one who is uninvolved and interested. I don't think editing the same article, or even making edits on the same section under dispute is important, because the request isn't about content at all, just behavior. Ignignot (talk) 15:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's evidence that there is at least one long-term concerted effort under way to disrupt the climate change articles. That does not excuse, but contributes to explaining Ratels claims. It also means that LHvUs surprise at this is hard to understand for me. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 01:27, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Scibaby, right. That does not have anything to do with this request. Mackan79 (talk) 01:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- This issue is bigger than me. It's about what's happening to climate change articles on wikipedia. Global warming, like evolution, is a scientific subject with extremely strong general consensus amongst the practising scientists in the area. These same scientists have their hair on fire with anxiety about the way FUD Merchants are deliberately misleading the public, causing much fiddling while Rome burns. From a scientific point of view, the FUDders are peddling WP:FRINGE theories, and should not at all be given equal weight or time on pages concerning this issue, nor indeed during conversations like this, where we are misguidedly enjoined to treat them like learned colleagues with pristine motives. In just the same way, anti-evolutionists and creationists are not given equal weight and deference in debates on pages concerning the science of evolution. So there are limits to how much good faith should be extended, in this encyclopedic environment, to people with antiscience agendas on scientific pages — that is, if you want to have an encyclopedia worth the name. Now if this reasoning escapes any serious editor, I suggest that he/she has lost the plot about what the purpose of an encyclopedia is. ► RATEL ◄ 16:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aside... "Global" means it's a global subject, science is clearly only part of the issue. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 17:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- At no point does a group of people being wrong or having an agenda excuse poor behavior towards a specific person, unless that person has demonstrated malice. AGF is simple. You're saying, "they're a bunch of fringe idiots who are subverting wikipedia's goals to further their own ends, and he agrees with some things that they say, so he is one of them, so AGF doesn't apply anymore," but AGF does not apply to groups, it applies to editors on a case by case basis. And don't attribute to malice what can simply be ignorance, stupidity, or honest disagreement. This is indeed at the heart of what's happening in climate change - people are identifying groups of editors that they lump others into, ready to attribute any mistake to deliberate wrongdoing. Collaboration cannot be built on a foundation of mistrust and quick, arbitrary personal judgement. In my opinion, any editor that is not communicating, is snidely insinuating, constantly calling others out on minor guideline violations, rushing to authority for help when a few minutes of calm discussion would do, grouping editors into us and them when we're all just jerks on the internet with too much free time, or trying to right all the evils in the world should move on to other topics that they don't get so emotionally attached to. As an aside, this is why I support a topic ban on CC for almost anyone who has edited a CC article or talk page. Ignignot (talk) 17:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Aside... "Global" means it's a global subject, science is clearly only part of the issue. Zulu Papa 5 ☆ (talk) 17:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- This issue is bigger than me. It's about what's happening to climate change articles on wikipedia. Global warming, like evolution, is a scientific subject with extremely strong general consensus amongst the practising scientists in the area. These same scientists have their hair on fire with anxiety about the way FUD Merchants are deliberately misleading the public, causing much fiddling while Rome burns. From a scientific point of view, the FUDders are peddling WP:FRINGE theories, and should not at all be given equal weight or time on pages concerning this issue, nor indeed during conversations like this, where we are misguidedly enjoined to treat them like learned colleagues with pristine motives. In just the same way, anti-evolutionists and creationists are not given equal weight and deference in debates on pages concerning the science of evolution. So there are limits to how much good faith should be extended, in this encyclopedic environment, to people with antiscience agendas on scientific pages — that is, if you want to have an encyclopedia worth the name. Now if this reasoning escapes any serious editor, I suggest that he/she has lost the plot about what the purpose of an encyclopedia is. ► RATEL ◄ 16:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Comments by uninvolved editors need to cease
I have occasionally dipped my toe into the turbulent waters that are this page, but most of the time, I have refrained from doing so. The primary purpose for my doing so is to avoid the peanut gallery – in this case a set of editors who seem to turn up on every other request to either defend someone whose point of view they agree with or attack those whom they disagree with. I am not saying that this is true for every commentator, but for a good number, this is certainly the case. Therefore, I am asking that threaded discussion on Wikipedia:General sanctions/Climate change probation/Requests for enforcement cease. If you have something to add to the request, drop the diffs, add perhaps a few sentences of explanation, and leave it there. If you disagree with someone's interpretation of the diffs, please do not post. Administrators are more easily able to come to a fair conclusion when they don't have deal with spin from partisans.
Administrators: I was thinking that we formalize this "rule", as it were. Your thoughts? NW (Talk) 20:44, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's worth a try, although we should except those editors against whom enforcement is requested (if any). We can sunset it for two weeks, with an option of renewal if there is consensus. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:02, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- ec :I think the threaded discussion is "mostly harmless", with typically a couple of non-obvious points made amongst the face-off. I haven't seen any sign of uninvolved admins counting votes and think people with nothing to say (or who say nothing new) will realise what gets notice and what gets ignored. --BozMo talk 21:06, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, NW, I see your point, but I can't get behind a proposal that starts out by "banning" uninvolved editors.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:12, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps "uninvolved" wasn't exactly the best word to use. If you take a look at the top 11 non-admin editors to the page, you have Tony Sidaway, Thegoodlocust, Heyitspeter, William M. Connolley, ChrisO, Marknutley, GoRight, Hipocrite, Unitanode, Scjessey, and ATren. With just a few exceptions, they have all been heavily involved in editing climate change articles. Perhaps that is to be expected with such a board, but it hasn't exactly helped matters. NW (Talk) 21:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- That's what I figured you meant, but still, not convinced it's a good idea. Maybe I need to actually patrol here for a bit and see if my opinion changes... --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 21:21, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps "uninvolved" wasn't exactly the best word to use. If you take a look at the top 11 non-admin editors to the page, you have Tony Sidaway, Thegoodlocust, Heyitspeter, William M. Connolley, ChrisO, Marknutley, GoRight, Hipocrite, Unitanode, Scjessey, and ATren. With just a few exceptions, they have all been heavily involved in editing climate change articles. Perhaps that is to be expected with such a board, but it hasn't exactly helped matters. NW (Talk) 21:19, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- While the noise to signal ration is high, it has been the case that I have been informed by some of the comments - the standard reactions by some commentators can also be "tuned out" to a certain extent, although it would be wrong to disregard them. A diff that places an earlier diff into a different context, or an example of same behaviour earlier on another article, provides coverage that a reviewing admin could not hope to achieve. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:25, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not particularly comfortable with any suggestion of "muzzling" people, including the usual suspects. An open process where everyone gets their say seems more important to me than avoiding wading through a bit of noise. I do agree that people should generally just make their initial comment and if they feel a rebuttal to someone else is necessary, keep it with "their" comment rather than getting into a long indented argument. I hope no-one thinks that a bunch of people saying the same thing is going to have more weight than one person. It is going to be strength of argument that will sway admins, not quantity. Perhaps just an unofficial convention that if comment gets out of hand an uninvolved admin can collapse it or otherwise bring it to a halt, request by request? Franamax (talk) 21:30, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- NW I applaud your out of the box thinking but I find that the counterpoint is often useful. Diffs sometimes can be looked at too quickly so having someone say "but that's not what they mean" can be quite a good thing. Perhaps some requests when things get excessive, but not an outright prohibition. "mostly harmless" per BozMo. ++Lar: t/c 21:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- I think NW has hit the nail on the head. I earlier clumsily attempted to address this problem from the standpoint of the low quality of some recent enforcement requests, but the real problem (which I have discussed vaguely at various points) is that having a talking shop like this invites a battleground mentality. Despite an overall improvement on the articles, this warfare seems to be hardening and new warriors have been attracted by the noise. That is very worrying. Tasty monster (=TS ) 22:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Fifty-fifty articles
Am I right in summarising that every case that is brought here is decided purely on the editor's behaviour, with no view to the content produced, or the accurate reflection of sources, or the application of due weight, or any contribution made to building a good encyclopedia? It seems to me that the band of anti-science and anti-AGW proponents that arrived on the climate change articles soon after the CRU hacking incident have taken to wiki-lawyering like proverbial ducks to water. When arguments about content go wrong, the combatants end up here and the issue is then decided on the basis of who has been the rudest, who has tip-toed around the behavioural guidelines the most daintily and who is best at winding the other guy up to the point where they break some rule somewhere first. I have seen comments recently from long-term contributors about having vowed not to get involved but commenting anyway, or intending to keep articles off their watchlists, or generally not wanting to touch climate change articles with a bargepole.
It seems to me that the evolutionary effect of this will be that, at some point in the infinite future, all the articles will end up a 50/50 mix of statements based on scientific research and ideas rooted in anti-science polemic. Global warming 'belief' may seem like a 50/50 political choice to some American voters at the moment as they have just been subjected to one of the most pernicious disinformation campaigns in history. But in the wider world, the science is settled and all relevant scientific associations and societies agree it is. 50/50 articles would be a travesty against the facts. Is this process designed to achieve 50/50 articles in a world where no one can truly judge the rights and wrongs of, say, political, religious or territorial debates? If so, I wonder if they really are the right process for this case, where the results of five to eight decades of worldwide scientific research need to be balanced against the noise made by well-funded special interest, business, political and lobby groups in a few very wealthy countries. --Nigelj (talk) 22:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- To be honest, Nigel, the assumption that you are dealing only with anti-science editors is one of the major problems. On Climate change denial you and a couple of others have been editing to remove all mention of any criticism of this term from the lead of that article. There is notable controversy, discussed in dozens of reliable sources. WP:LEAD clearly states that the lead should cover notable controversies. Yet, it is now being continually removed without any suggestion of what would be appropriate to include. Does an editor truly have to be anti-science to see this as a problem? It seems to be your view, and that of some others, that disagreements over NPOV in this area must come down to pro-science vs. anti-science. That is a classic battleground mentality, and absurd. Writing good article is not a simple matter of documenting the science, or a majority view. The quality of our articles runs a huge spectrum, and almost always there are ways to make improvements. The fact that qualified scientists have certain points of consensus on climate change, meanwhile, does not mean there is a consensus on every related topic such as whether public skepticism is largely a matter of "denialism." That is a political issue, not a scientific issue, for which the scientific consensus is only one of many points. Climate change should not be treated as a matter of political controversy, but Climate change denial is. The articles address different issues, and will be written entirely differently. Black and white, undifferentiated views that treat all of it in the same manner are not good enough. Mackan79 (talk) 23:59, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Here's my take based on my experiences participating in Wikipedia, and that's that it doesn't matter what the subject matter is. First of all, we don't take sides on any issue. Policy requires that we edit neutrally. Neutral writing means that the reader cannot tell which side the writer is taking. When we press the "edit" tab, we're committing ourselves to that principle. Second, how well do we cooperate, collaborate, and compromise with other editors in order to produce articles that are complete and NPOV? Do we try to find common ground? Do we suggest compromise solutions? Do we edit war? Do we, in a civil manner, suggest alternatives? If you think of things in these terms, then it doesn't matter which "side" anyone is on. What matters is how well each editor works with others to build content and their commitment to NPOV. Cla68 (talk) 00:18, 18 March 2010 (UTC)