FACs needing feedback view • | |
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2023 World Snooker Championship | Review it now |
Tornado outbreak of February 12, 1945 | Review it now |
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- For a Table-of-Contents only list of candidates, see Wikipedia:Featured articles/Candidate list
Extreme change at WP:MOSDASH
It might seem trivial, but the change that three editors have had three goes at trying to force through would render in breach just about all FAC biographical articles, plus many others.
Apparently, we are going to be forced to jam together the innermost elements in ranges and other disjunctive uses of the en dash:
31 December 1910–11 January 1972 (Is there a one-year range stuck in the middle?)
New York–Boston route (a new one from York in the UK to Boston?)
The style guide and widespread practice have been stable on this matter for years.
The norms are:
31 December 1910 – 11 January 1972
New York – Boston route
While practice out there varies (or is in a mess, even within publishing houses), there is utterly no reason WP should change its practice on the basis of the personal whims of a few editors.
RfC here. Tony (talk) 00:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- Practice outside of Wikipedia is pretty standard: high-quality academic publishers typically omit the spaces. So, for example, these publishers don't use the weird spacing that Wikipedia currently requires in examples like this:
- "Franco-German and Japanese – South Korean relations after World War II"
- Wikipedia practice (as opposed to what the style guide requires) often omits the spaces in cases like this. Anyway, I suppose the proper place to discuss this absolutely vital and pressing issue is at the RfC. Eubulides (talk) 01:33, 6 March 2010 (UTC)
- I just read the discussion and my head exploded. Auntieruth55 (talk) 04:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Alt text in FA images
What's the practice when existing FAs are discovered to have not a jot of alt text for their images? Is it a requirement? Tony (talk) 13:45, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I can't speak for others, but when that requirement rolled out before my last FAC nomination, I went back to my previous FAs and added the ALT text. At the same time, I pinged Eubulides for help to make sure that I added was good on one article before I went through the two. I would hope that other editors who are somewhat prolific at FAs have a similar plan in mind. Beyond that, I'm sure that they will be FAR-ed and updated eventually, but I would hope that they are kept up after FACs. Imzadi1979 (talk) 14:01, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I did the same, 2 days after the discussion about alt text started. --Moni3 (talk) 14:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I posted a note about it at the article talk page. I guess I'll return in a few days to see if anyone is going to add the alt text. There are many images. Tony (talk) 14:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Given that we have about 2,000 FAs that predate the alt text requirement, obviously this will take some time, especially since the nominators may no longer be active in the article (or be active at all). Plainly articles submitted for TFA consideration should have alt text.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:12, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I am gradually adding alt text to my FA noms that preceded the alt text rule. I've done most, but as Wehwalt says, it will take time. Brianboulton (talk) 22:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I only add when asked. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:33, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Since alt text, while useful, is not vital for readers (even those who cannot view the images), I think we should allow a grace period for older FAs; many users are still not even aware that such a featured exists, let alone know how to write it or are aware that it is required in FAs now. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Letting people know on the talk page in question is the best bet here: alt text is rather trivial to add and only takes a few minutes to read the guidelines and figure out what you're supposed to be doing anyhow. FARs for alt text seems... excessive. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 23:22, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Since alt text, while useful, is not vital for readers (even those who cannot view the images), I think we should allow a grace period for older FAs; many users are still not even aware that such a featured exists, let alone know how to write it or are aware that it is required in FAs now. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:41, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I only add when asked. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 22:33, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I am gradually adding alt text to my FA noms that preceded the alt text rule. I've done most, but as Wehwalt says, it will take time. Brianboulton (talk) 22:02, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Given that we have about 2,000 FAs that predate the alt text requirement, obviously this will take some time, especially since the nominators may no longer be active in the article (or be active at all). Plainly articles submitted for TFA consideration should have alt text.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:12, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I posted a note about it at the article talk page. I guess I'll return in a few days to see if anyone is going to add the alt text. There are many images. Tony (talk) 14:38, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
- I did the same, 2 days after the discussion about alt text started. --Moni3 (talk) 14:03, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't FAR solely on lack of ALT text, but any FA that's left alone from the day it was promoted will eventually be taken to FARC from some reason, and if ALT text hasn't been added before then, it should be added then. Imzadi1979 (talk) 01:47, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, that's common practice. I don't recall seeing any FAR solely for lack of alt text, and I've read all the FARs since the alt text requirement was added. Eubulides (talk) 02:53, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
I think including the use of alt texts for images as an FA requirement is silly and can be at odds with other criteria. For example, one of the examples listed at WP:ALT for Mary Bartelme lists "Head and shoulders of a serious and dignified woman in her forties, with dark hair up and in a dress with high lace collar and a cameo at her throat, Edwardian style" as a model description. The words "serious and dignified" are totally subjective and POV, and indicating her age is not really helpful given people age at different rates. Then there's the diagram example: "Carbonated hydroxyapatite enamel crystal is demineralized by acid in plaque and becomes partly dissolved crystal. This in turn is remineralized by fluoride in plaque to become fluoroapatite-like coating on remineralized crystal." That's basically the exact same thing you would read in prose, and thus is no more helpful to visually-impaired editors than whatever could be expressed in the article text. Frankly, nt every visual image can be adequately described in words. I think it's a nice idea to have alt text for images, but to make it a requirement to pass FAC? I don't see the sense in that. WesleyDodds (talk) 05:59, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with WesleyDodds's "it's a nice idea to have alt text for images, but to make it a requirement to pass FAC?"
- The ALT attribute is suitable for only brief identification, as anything more could often duplicate text in the main content. The LONGDESCR attribute could avoid duplication, by using an internal anchor (e.g. "#LD_img_topic"), but WWC says LONGDESCR is poorly supported by browsers, and AFAIK Mediawiki does not support LONGDESCR.
- The current guideline says alt desc should be a physical description. This has multiple issues, e.g.:
- It's no use to readers who are blind from birth.
- Sometimes a physical description is irrelevant as well as a waste of editors' time. E.g. "Lord Nelson, supported by Hardie, is dying on HMS Victory while the English fleet devastated the French" explain the significance of the scene. OTOH a physical description would be e.g. "A man of X age, in the (long description of 1805 UK admiral's uniform) lies dying of a bullet wound (when?) on the deck of a (long description of UK first-rate builder in late 18-cent). A second man, (long description of 1805 UK naval uniform of Hardie's rank), sits and supports the dying man ..."
- A physical description of a concept looks unlikely to be helpful. E.g. the "crown and stem groups" dgm at Opabinia#Theoretical_significance.
- Some diagrams summarise of a large part of an article, e.g. Template:Annotated_image/Mollusc_generalized/doc. --Philcha (talk) 07:29, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- If there are problems with the Alt-text guideline or you feel it shouldn't be a guideline, please discuss that at WT:ALT. This page is for discussing FAC. Colin°Talk 09:20, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- We're discussing how it applies to the FA process. Even WP:ALT says alt text is "recommended" but nothing firmer than that, so why should it be mandatory for articles coming through FAC? WesleyDodds (talk) 10:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- It started that way (and that discussion belongs here) but the last two lengthy posts deviated. Please keep this relevant. WT:FAC is not the place for guidelines and policy to be worked out. I don't know what version of WP:ALT you are reading but mine says "Every image should have alt text, unless the image is purely decorative and does nothing when you click it." It is absolutely firm on that, in as much as any guideline can be. Colin°Talk 11:01, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- And the discussion of whether the WP:ALT guideline should be enforced at FAC at all belongs at WT:FA?. This discussion is about what to do about existing FAs that were promoted prior to the criteria change. Colin°Talk 11:18, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- In the "Goal" section, it says "For all these reasons, the Wikipedia image use policy recommends alt text for Wikipedia images". Also guidelines are simply that: guidelines. Why is it now essential to have alt-text as part of the Featured Article Criteria? I understand that this section started discussing what to do about prior FAs (which itself could also be a discussion carried out at WT:FA?, if you want to get technical), but I've just heard about the alt text requirement and wanted to bring up some points I feel are necessary to consider. as this is the plce where the criteria is put into effect, I feel it's important to examine the points I brought up here, given alt text captions seem prone to OR/POV descriptions or can be pretty redundant to existing prose. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:28, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Policy recommends guideline. That's all the quote says. The guideline itself mandates alt text. I understand you have points to bring up and I'm in no way trying to suppress those. I'm just saying that this discussion shouldn't be derailed by a discussion that belongs elsewhere. Why should a discussion on whether "alt text captions seem prone to OR/POV descriptions or can be pretty redundant to existing prose" be conducted here and limited to the audience gathered here? Discuss the guideline on the guideline talk page. Advertise that discussion here if you want. Colin°Talk 13:20, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- In the "Goal" section, it says "For all these reasons, the Wikipedia image use policy recommends alt text for Wikipedia images". Also guidelines are simply that: guidelines. Why is it now essential to have alt-text as part of the Featured Article Criteria? I understand that this section started discussing what to do about prior FAs (which itself could also be a discussion carried out at WT:FA?, if you want to get technical), but I've just heard about the alt text requirement and wanted to bring up some points I feel are necessary to consider. as this is the plce where the criteria is put into effect, I feel it's important to examine the points I brought up here, given alt text captions seem prone to OR/POV descriptions or can be pretty redundant to existing prose. WesleyDodds (talk) 11:28, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- We're discussing how it applies to the FA process. Even WP:ALT says alt text is "recommended" but nothing firmer than that, so why should it be mandatory for articles coming through FAC? WesleyDodds (talk) 10:36, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with WesleyDodds's "it's a nice idea to have alt text for images, but to make it a requirement to pass FAC?"
- Colin, the guideline doesn't mandate ALT test. Guidelines don't mandate anything; they are advisory. But even in its own terms, that guideline only encourages ALT text, as does the MoS (or did when I last looked). SlimVirgin TALK contribs 01:51, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- If editors want to restart the discussion over whether alt text should be part of the FA criteria, please see Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive39 first, where it was discussed extensively. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:30, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- My concern isn't necessarily with the guideline itself (although it has its faults). After all, that why we have "Ignore all rules". My concern is that this guideline is one of the few explicitly singled out as necessary for meeting the FA criteria. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:41, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, I get you, but the required vs. recommended thing doesn't work well at FA. Some reviewers intepret "recommended" as required, anyway, and on the other side of the spectrum, nominators translate "recommended" as "not required, so I don't need to follow it". Either way, I can see a lot of unproductive discussion springing from the introduction of a little leeway into the criteria. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not saying there should be leeway in the criteria. What I'm saying is that alt text for images is a rather odd thing to make a requirement of the featured article critieria. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, I get you, but the required vs. recommended thing doesn't work well at FA. Some reviewers intepret "recommended" as required, anyway, and on the other side of the spectrum, nominators translate "recommended" as "not required, so I don't need to follow it". Either way, I can see a lot of unproductive discussion springing from the introduction of a little leeway into the criteria. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:52, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- My concern isn't necessarily with the guideline itself (although it has its faults). After all, that why we have "Ignore all rules". My concern is that this guideline is one of the few explicitly singled out as necessary for meeting the FA criteria. WesleyDodds (talk) 13:41, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- The addition of the alt text requirement at FAC can be viewed in the context of the 2005 change that required inline citation after the Seigenthaler incident. At the time the change was added to WIAFA, more than half of FAs were out of compliance; it took three years to bring those articles to compliance, and it was a slow, deliberate process. FARing articles for alt text-- a guideline-- would be silly, and writing alt text is a form that not all editors have mastered (moi, for example). We can gently ask for it on talk, but making a big to-do over it isn't likely to be productive. An older FA is not going to be defeatured simply because it's lacking alt text. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:26, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Alt text became a stated requirement in the Featured article criteria since July 2009. I don't see consensus for it being applied retrospectively however and agree with SandyGeorgia in that FARing articles for the alt text --guideline-- would be silly. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 19:12, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
Purpose of alt text I don't know that I have much perspective to add on this, but I would like to point out a few things that may be going overlooked:
- Alt text is mandatory in HTML. There are bugs at bugzilla about HTML validity and any solution there would override any policy on Wikipedia to the extent that they will encourage/mandate/generate alt text on any Wikimedia project. It would be better to encourage users to come up with intelligible and useful alt text rather than generate dummy "*"s (as is sometimes done simply to pass validation, but obviously lacking any semantic purpose.) As an added bonus, by demanding alt text on Wikipedia, it may serve to popularize alt text elsewhere, making the Web more accessible for everyone.
- Alt text is not just for the blind, but for devices that cannot render images (e.g. Lynx users.) Alt text is used to replace an image when it is not available, irrespective of why it is not available. If—God forbid—there is another loss of files (as has happened before) or if images get corrupted, alt text can be useful in replacing those destroyed files or finding new ones that compliment the article in the same manner.
- Even if the sole purpose of alt text was for the blind, the argument "it doesn't help users born blind" is irrelevant, since it would (ostensibly) help those who were not born blind. The simple fact that it isn't a perfect and complete solution shouldn't stop us from implementing a partial and provisional solution.
- Even if a majority of featured content lacks alt text, that is hardly a reason to remove it as a criterion. For those featured articles which currently lack it, the text can be added and if anyone nominates one of those articles for former featured article status, it can easily be added at that time. For that matter, if someone really wants to solve this problem, it can be done in a week with a handful of editors.
From the perspective of usability and proper HTML, if featured articles are to be the finest that Wikipedia has to offer, then it seems to me that alt text should be included as a criterion. For that matter, it is very simple to add, so it is not going to seriously derail any FA/FL/FT nomination. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:43, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Addendum Wikipedia currently does generate dummy alt text for the purpose of passing validation. For instance, the current Main Page passes validation by including totally useless alt text like "Kathryn Bigelow" for a photograph of Kathryn Bigelow and "French Foreign Legion emblem" for that figure. These are identical to the
title
of the images and defeats the entire purpose of alt text. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:46, 10 March 2010 (UTC)- Back to the basic questions:
- Is alt text mandatory for new FAs. In other words, will nominations be promoted without alt text.
- If alt text is mandatory for new FAs, must it comply with WP:ALT. In other words, will nominations be promoted if their alt text does not comply with WP:ALT.
- If an older FA is reassessed at FAR, is alt text mandatory for that FA. In other words, will the FA will be delisted if alt text is not added.
- If an older FA is reassessed at FAR and alt text is added, must its alt text comply with WP:ALT. In other words, will FAs at FAR be delisted if their alt text does not comply with WP:ALT. --Philcha (talk) 03:49, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Back to the basic questions:
- It's difficult to discuss any aspect of ALT text without noticing the inherent problems with it. I know people mean well by wanting it but I fear it's just not a good way to spend our time. An example from today: I'm not allowed in ALT text to tell readers who don't have access to images that the image they're missing is of Big Ben and the Houses of Parliament. Instead, I have to talk about a clock tower next to a four-story building. In the ALT text guideline itself, we have an example of describing a woman as in her 40s when she looks considerably older, and there are similar examples everywhere of very subjective judgments being made. You could argue that these things don't matter, but if we believe ALT text is important, then they do. The whole thing is really very confusing and I fear not helpful to anyone, especially not at FAC where nominators already have a lot to think about. So to answer Phil's questions, it shouldn't in my view be mandatory for old FAs; the text shouldn't have to comply with WP:ALT; and in my view it shouldn't be mandatory for new FAs either. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 05:58, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- It's a noble objective and I'll add it if asked but whether it improves the encyclopedia overall is open to debate. Adding alt text uses up time and levies an opportunity cost. Instead of writing alt text describing a picture, the editor could be writing the body of an article and may be inefficient use of time. It takes up article space which may be a problem for large articles. It could be seen as an additional unnecessary time consuming hoop to jump through that dissuades contribution of volunteers. As noble a goal as it is, it also smacks of political correctness foisted upon editors to compel certain behavior. It simply looks bad for volunteer editors to be judged by a criteria that is not intrinsic to the article writing process by those who can rectify the situation if its that important to them. Finally, it's not clear whether the practice is effective at achieving its aims. Too often the recommended alt text refers back to the text so is redundant. It is reasonable to ask why the caption shouldn't be sufficient? Alt text is currently recommended and encouraging it is great, but if it is cited as a requirement, that is instruction creep. Lambanog (talk) 08:04, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Captions Captions supplement pictures, giving context to what you are seeing. Alt text takes the place of the picture in the event that it is not displayed or seen. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:23, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please see #Alt text back to the basics below. Eubulides (talk) 08:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Alt text back to the basics
Replying to several comments above, from different editors:
- "The whole thing is really very confusing" It's a lot less confusing than it's been made out to be. Don't tie yourself into knots. Just use a simple heuristic: pretend you're describing the image over the telephone to someone. Write that down. Then stop. There's no need to make it perfect, any more than a listener would expect you to make it perfect over the phone.
- "I'm not allowed in ALT text to tell readers who don't have access to images that the image they're missing is of Big Ben" No, if you were describing the image over the phone, you could expect the typical listener to know what Big Ben looks like, because it's an iconic image. So it'd be OK to say "Big Ben". As it happens, WP:ALT #Proper names mentions Big Ben as an example of an image whose name is OK to use in alt text, for exactly this reason.
- "You could argue that these things don't matter, but if we believe ALT text is important, then they do." It's important to have alt text. But it's not important that it be perfect. All it has to do is convey the gist of the image.
- "very subjective judgments" The case you mention is not subjective: that photo was published when the woman was 46, and clearly she was in her 40s. It's true that sometimes alt text can rely on subjective judgments. But that's OK: most of Wikipedia relies on subjective judgments. Just describe the image and move on. Again, there's no need to be perfect.
- "I fear it's just not a good way to spend our time." "it's not clear whether the practice is effective at achieving its aims." We've had direct feedback from a blind Wikipedia editor that alt text is quite useful. And reliable sources say that alt text is important for visually impaired people: for example, a 2008 study of blind access to Wikipedia listed lack of alt text as the first obstacle. See Buzzi M, Leporini B. Is Wikipedia usable for the blind? In: Proc 2008 W4A. Beijing: 2008. (ACM International Conference Proceeding Series; vol. 317). p. 15–22. doi:10.1145/1368044.1368049.
- "It's no use to readers who are blind from birth." Not true: alt text can be quite useful to readers who are blind from birth. Besides, only a small minority of blind people are blind from birth. Most blindness comes when people are older, due to age-related macular degeneration.
- "It takes up article space which may be a problem for large articles" No, the overhead for large articles is quite small. For example, for Brad Pitt, a large article in FAC that I happen to have reviewed recently, only 1559 out of its 230,769 bytes of HTML are alt text: so the overhead is roughly 0.7%. And this is not counting the image bytes: the alt text for an image is typically a small fraction of the size of the image.
- "Too often the recommended alt text refers back to the text so is redundant." Can you give examples of that? WP:ALT#Repetition says that alt text should not repeat article text. There are a few exceptions where placeholders are the best one can do (see WP:ALT#Placeholders), but they ought to be fairly rare, and are rare in the FACs and FARs that I've observed.
- "why the caption shouldn't be sufficient?" Typically the caption is not sufficient by itself, because the image conveys useful information that's not in the caption; in this case the useful information in the image needs to be conveyed to the visually impaired reader. In the rare case where the caption is sufficient by itself, then neither alt text nor image is needed.
- "it also smacks of political correctness" Sorry, but I'm afraid I don't understand that comment. I looked at Political correctness and the only mention of this topic is a criticism of 'Terms relating to disability, such as "visually challenged" in place of "blind"'. Is it the use of the term "visually impaired" that is objectionable? But this is a technical term (see Visual impairment), not a political one: "visually impaired" is not a euphemism for "blind". Another question: is it just alt text in particular, or WP:ACCESSIBILITY in general, that "smacks of political correctness"?
- "Back to the basic questions" I've reviewed the alt text of every FAC and FAR for months. Most FACs now have alt text that is just fine, with no comments or work needed. Most FARs are about articles that predate the alt text requirement and therefore lack alt text, but the alt text is the least of these articles' problems. Any FACed or FARred article that has its other problems fixed has its alt text fixed almost as a matter of course, with little extra work needed for the alt text. I don't recall any of those "basic questions" actually coming up in practice: editors are pretty good about adding alt text, and it isn't that much work.
Eubulides (talk) 08:55, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
- My big problem with the requirement of image alt-text to meet the FA criteria is the inherent subjectivity it introduces to the articles, when FAs are supposed to maintain a neutral POV. Alt text is intended to describe an image for someone who can't see it, whatever that reason may be. The problem is that seeing an image and describing an image are two very different things. The former is a sensory experience; you can perceive it as it is if you have the faculties. The latter requires communication of something that isn't words into words, a process that introduces a third party that distorts that information in a profound way. It's very OR. Note many of the examples offered by the alt text guidelines are very subjective interpretations. Furthermore they can be pretty useless; Eubulides says one description is suitably because "when the woman was 46, and clearly she was in her 40s", but it isn't because we still don't know what a woman in her 40s looks like, and furthermore there's no set definition of what a person in their 40s is supposed to look like because all people age differently. On the opposite spectrum, you can end up with bland text that is redundant to the caption. Also, I find the comment "alt text can be quite useful to readers who are blind from birth. Besides, only a small minority of blind people are blind from birth" ill-thought-out. If a person is blind from birth, what good is describing something they cannot perceive in a manner they have no reference for? Alss, you say it's useful to them, but then you dismiss them. Either the concerns of users blind-from-birth are worth addressing or they aren't worth addressing at all. WesleyDodds (talk) 03:07, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Eubulides, I agree with Wesley about the subjective element. The other problem is that how we're told to do it keeps changing. I've had details removed from ALT text quite inexplicably e.g. a man on a horse walking down a certain street—I wasn't supposed to say what the street sign said. Sometimes it's okay to say Big Ben, but with other well-known things I've been told not to name them.
- Anyway, I don't want to give you a hard time, because you do great work. When this last came up, it seemed to me there was a consensus not to mandate it at FAC. I was about to post a more formal poll about it, but I first of all looked at your contribs and saw what a great contributor you are, so I decided to let sleeping dogs lie. Every time I add ALT text to an image now, I am literally doing it only for you, and that's how I justify it to myself. :) But I do hope one day that you'll reconsider. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 03:23, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for that compliment, SlimVirgin. I appreciate your making it here; it's better than a barnstar! Your street-sign example doesn't sound right: if the image names the street that can be in the alt text. More generally, I'm sure that mistakes are made when writing or reviewing alt text, just as they're made in other parts of Wikipedia, but the presence of natural human errors doesn't mean we should abandon alt text. Eubulides (talk) 20:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Subjectivity How is it inherently subjective to describe an image but not a boat or an author? For that matter, couldn't there be a featured article on (e.g.) the Mona Lisa? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 03:53, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- As it stands, Mona Lisa is a perfect example of subjectivity. The alt-text just says "see adjacent text"; the adjacent text is "The painting is a half-length portrait and depicts a woman whose facial expression is often described as enigmatic. The ambiguity of the sitter's expression, the monumentality of the half-figure composition, and the subtle modeling of forms and atmospheric illusionism were novel qualities that have contributed to the painting's continuing fascination." I've highlighted every part of that wording that's a clear violation of NPOV. – iridescent 10:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Great! After all this time, the enigma is solved: it's just another portrait of a woman with a facial expression. (Does the "iride" part of your signature violate NPOV too? Poor thing, you'll have to be reduced to a mere scent in the cause of policy enforcement) Yomanganitalk 11:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thats a little unfair, Yomangani. That text is clearly a violation of WP:TONE, WP:NPOV unless it is attributed to someone, and as it is there could fall under WP:OR. (Then again that article is not featured either) I agree that alt texts should not be a requirement to achieving featured article status. Our encyclopedia should be open to all, but that does not mean every image, tiddle, and taddle, has to be made available. There is a logical limit to things. A blind person, regardless of the alt text, will never be able to appreciate an image unless they can actually view it. The same for users using lynx or browsers settings that block images. I know I am probably going to get yelled at for saying that, but lets be realistic here. (Or do you want to prove the political correctness charge above?) Does an alt text saying, "portrait of a man with glasses looking forward and smiling" or "a sail boat on the horizon with the sun setting" truly convey to a person the details of an image to allow them to appreciate the hues of colour, the attention to detail of a painter, or the sentiment and emotional feeling an image can instill? No. And in most cases a summation of the alt text is in the caption and is easily deducible when paired with the text of the article. Images shouldn't be be going into articles unless their subject is talked about in the article to begin with (WP:IMAGE), and the caption points what is already in the article and should not introduce anything new. Aside from that WP:ALT has clear problems and conflicts with WP:OR, among other policies that need to be reconciled. Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia provides audio readings of each article, and that is something that could actually be of significant value to a handicapped reader, but we don't require that. Larger font would also be of use to handicapped readers, perhaps we should insist on a larger default font size on our featured articles? Some readers could be colour blind, perhaps we should insist on point out the colour of things? Some of our disabled readers may not have access to a Screen reader, perhaps we should find an open source version to provide to our readers? Seems to me, Alt text is quite low on the list of useful things we could do to make the wikipedia more accessible to handicapped persons, and to expect it to be included on a featured article, but not other more useful things, is fairly silly. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:34, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Great! After all this time, the enigma is solved: it's just another portrait of a woman with a facial expression. (Does the "iride" part of your signature violate NPOV too? Poor thing, you'll have to be reduced to a mere scent in the cause of policy enforcement) Yomanganitalk 11:54, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- As it stands, Mona Lisa is a perfect example of subjectivity. The alt-text just says "see adjacent text"; the adjacent text is "The painting is a half-length portrait and depicts a woman whose facial expression is often described as enigmatic. The ambiguity of the sitter's expression, the monumentality of the half-figure composition, and the subtle modeling of forms and atmospheric illusionism were novel qualities that have contributed to the painting's continuing fascination." I've highlighted every part of that wording that's a clear violation of NPOV. – iridescent 10:44, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- "A blind person, regardless of the alt text, will never be able to appreciate an image unless they can actually view it." This comment seems to be based on a misunderstanding of alt text's role. There is no requirement that alt text be an exact representation of its image. All that's needed is to give visually impaired readers the gist. The idea is to be much better than nothing, not to be as good as the image. (Please see WP:ALT#Brevity.)
- "In most cases a summation of the alt text is in the caption" If that were true, we would not need alt text. But that's not alt text's role. On the contrary, WP:ALT#Repetition recommends against the caption summarizing the alt text.
- "Wikipedia:WikiProject Spoken Wikipedia provides audio readings of each article, and that is something that could actually be of significant value to a handicapped reader, but we don't require that." First, that would be a lot more work. Second, it wouldn't address the problem, as these readings skip over the images.
- "Larger font would also be of use to handicapped readers, perhaps we should insist on a larger default font size on our featured articles?" No, because readers with milder visual impairments can easily use larger font sizes themselves, or screen magnifiers. This is standard practice, and it means that Wikipedia editors need not worry about font size issues and WP:ACCESSIBILITY. If there were a similar technology for describing images aloud automatically, then we wouldn't need alt text at all. Unfortunately, no such technology exists.
- "Some readers could be colour blind, perhaps we should insist on point out the colour of things?" We do have guidelines about how to make articles accessible to color-blind readers, yes; see WP:COLOR. When I notice a problem like that in an article I point it out and it's quickly corrected. It's typically less of a problem in practice.
- "Seems to me, Alt text is quite low on the list of useful things we could do to make the wikipedia more accessible to handicapped persons," But as seen in the previous bullets, we're already doing the other things on that list, at least, the ones that would actually help. Also, we have a reliable source that lists alt text first on the list of things to do for visually impaired readers of Wikipedia (Buzzi & Leporini 2008, doi:10.1145/1368044.1368049).
- Eubulides (talk) 20:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- I do see the violation of the content policies as quite significant. The NOR policy says that everything in an article must be attributable to a reliable published source, even if not attributed. That is, if someone requests a source for "this woman looks as though she's in her 40s," you have to supply one or remove the words. Material is also supposed to be neutral, and neutrally worded, or at least balanced. ALT text violates both these policies, and it necessarily violates NOR, because the descriptions are always those of a Wikipedian. To mandate something at FAC that necessarily violates a core content policy is a little odd. And when you're dealing with ALT text in contentious articles, it becomes a real problem, not just a theoretical one. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 13:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Not significant, only teething problems. The WP:ALT is just a bit messy and requires to be cleaned up. I would recommend anyone concerned enough to get engaged in discussion on WT:ALT. One solution to WP:NOR, which admittedly is like a sedgehammer to crack a nut, would be to simply put the caption text in the alt text - that ends WP:NOR and WP:NPOV issues completely, as it would be to the same established standard acceptable for caption text today. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 14:17, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- The caption text doesn't describe the image the way we're told ALT text must (a man looking to his left wearing a pink pullover etc). And even if they are only teething problems, the point remains that it violates the core content policies. We don't allow anything else to do that, teething or otherwise. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 14:28, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- The core content policies take priority over the specifics or implied 'must' of alt text because it is a guideline. I am confident that editors will firstly attempt to keep to core content policies when adding alt text and those with a keen eye, such as yourself, will pick up on anything overlooked during the WP:FAC/WP:FAR processes or before. The alt text being required is still a relatively new thing and as such may take a while to mature. That doesn't mean we should reject or ignore it because it is not perfect, but instead work towards making it a good polished guideline. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 16:03, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- No, I'm afraid the ALT text has taken priority over the content policies. We now mandate original research in ALT text in featured articles, plus NPOV violations. The only reason this isn't an issue is that very few people, if any, read ALT text, but that's a good argument for not bothering to add it. On the other hand, if people do read it, and it's therefore worth adding, we ought not to be adding it because it's rarely if ever going to be policy-compliant. And so we have ourselves a bit of a conundrum. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 16:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with SV. The alt text is not a guideline for FA. It is a requirement, because proponents made it very clear they wanted alt text included, the price for not doing so would be a failed nomination. A college student doesn't HAVE to do what a professor asks, he can easily drop out of school. It is a requirement. Whether it is a good one or a bad one is not for me to say. I had no notice of the WP:ALT discussions and so took no part in the process.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:09, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- No, I'm afraid the ALT text has taken priority over the content policies. We now mandate original research in ALT text in featured articles, plus NPOV violations. The only reason this isn't an issue is that very few people, if any, read ALT text, but that's a good argument for not bothering to add it. On the other hand, if people do read it, and it's therefore worth adding, we ought not to be adding it because it's rarely if ever going to be policy-compliant. And so we have ourselves a bit of a conundrum. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 16:08, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
Finally, a serious transparent debate about the absurdities of ALT being a requirement, and a thorough look into how its application as recommended by Eubulides violates several guidelines and policies. As one to have pointed out some of these problems months ago, I fully endorse the scrutiny: every time this issue was more timidly brought up, it got cut off with a sentimentalist lecture about how one user's POV and OR would actually benefit our visually challenged colleagues and readers. Dahn (talk) 17:37, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
I'm not following this WP:NOR/WP:NPOV violation claim at all. I accept the Mona Lisa body text fails as as substitute for Alt text. It has some problems as body text too so let's move on from that example. If one regards the image itself as a primary source, in what way would a faithful literal description of that image become OR? Is this any different from when one uses a book/film/video as the primary source for a plot summary? Or different from when I rephrase my source text to avoid plagiarism -- the way OR is being described here, I'd have to cite a thesaurus for every word change. And the alt-text = caption argument completely misses the point. Colin°Talk 18:01, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- I've worked on a couple of FAs where the images and their interpretation were the key issues, yet I was required to add my own opinion regarding what those images showed. I avoided the issues by not describing the images in full. Example from Muhammad al-Durrah incident, a highly contentious article about a Palestinian boy who was shot and, it appeared, killed in front of a France 2 cameraman who filmed it. One of the images after his death shows him moving. Some say it is the boy's death throes. People who argue the incident was staged say he is peeking at the camera because he wasn't actually shot. (I had to delete this image because of fair-use problems):
[[:File:Muhammad al-Durrah final scene.JPG|right|250px|thumb|This scene from the France 2 footage, in which the boy appears to lift his hand away from his face, occurs after the material that was broadcast. Enderlin said he cut it because it showed the boy's death throes. Three French journalists who viewed it said it did not (see below).|alt=The same scene as above with the man and the boy, but more blurred. The man is crouching, leaning toward his left. The boy is lying across the man's knees. The boy's right arm is slightly raised.]]
- I didn't get into how his leg was also raised, and wasn't raised in the scene before it, and how his hand had moved away from his face, and how he seemed to be looking straight ahead i.e. at the camera. That is, I avoided the OR and NPOV issues by not writing the ALT text properly. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 18:24, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Guessing at a person's age, commenting about their subjective expression, making statements about things in the image that are unverifiable are all problems. Take this as an example. "A sail boat on a sea with the sun setting at the horizon", seemingly straightforward. But what if it a ship at a distance and not a boat? What if it is a lake and not a sea? What if the sun is rising and not setting? Yet how could colorfully describe that setting without including those basic objects? And how could you know with certainty what those basic objects are without a source? If you boiled it down to "a boat on water with the sun in the background" past experience would tell me that it would be shot down as not descriptive enough in a FAC review. Any fanciful or subjective wording should not be included in alt texts as is now being required unless a source is available for it. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 18:30, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Here are the relevant sections of the policies. Our sourcing policy, WP:V, says: "This policy requires that a reliable source in the form of an inline citation be supplied for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations, or the material may be removed. This is strictly applied to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, and sections of articles—without exception ..." (my bold).
- Our WP:NOR policy says: "'All material added to articles on Wikipedia must be attributable to a reliable published source, even if not actually attributed in the text. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions" (my bold).
- ALT text violates both of these core content policies. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 18:34, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Captions are subject to the NOR policy just as everything else is. But ALT text has no sourcing. It's intended to be a description of the image as seen by Wikipedians, which is OR by definition. SlimVirgin TALK contribs 03:01, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
- The image is the primary source. Citing bits of policy doesn't cut it, like lifing "contradictory" pieces out of religious texts. Please can someone tell me how alt-text (done properly) is different from the plot summary in Cartman Gets an Anal Probe, Casino Royale (2006 film), To Kill a Mockingbird or any other similar FA. All of these are sourced (presumably) to the primary text/film/cartoon. It is ridiculous to say I can describe a moving picture but not a stationary one. Colin°Talk 19:50, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Can't do other than to agree; it's an absurd inconsistency. The point of sourcing is that anyone who doubts what's being said can go check for themselves, by watching the movie or reading the book or whatever. It's not a goal in and of itself. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- How about this from the lead of Thomas R. Marshall: "Head and shoulders of a sixty year old man with a serious expression and many deep wrinkles in his skin. He has a bushy mustache and his hair is parted. He is wearing a high collared shirt and a neck tie." Is he 60, how can we tell, maybe he is 70? Is his expression serious, seems ambiguous? And this one in the body for the image of the statehouse: "A view looking down on a large building made of limestone. It is three stories high with two wings sweeping out from a central atrium with a domed stained glass roof", is the building really made of limestone how do we know? Are we sure it is three stories high, I count four. Are we sure it has a stained glass roof, looks like copper to me? In any case, none of this is referenced in the article and is not made clear by the photo, yet was insisted upon in the FA review, and passed after being entered. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 20:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- I could pick apart any plot summary in a similar fashion. Colin°Talk 20:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Point taken, but are such articles featured? Considering an image to be a primary source in the way a book is is a bit of a stretch here anyway. The closest thing in that policy is "a work of art". I really don't feel that WP:PRIMARY has any application in to this issue. This is blatant Original Research using a non-literary source because what is often being said about an image is subjective. Paraphrasing a document is one thing - guessing about things in an image is entirely another. My primary reason for disagreeing the use of ALT texts is not policy though, and I wrote above, it is that we don't do other more useful things to make our articles handicapped accessible, so why is this required? —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 20:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- (ec)To answer your earlier items. Font sizing is already an option in most modern browsers in the menu as 'tools' - 'zoom', also pressing CTRL and scrolling the mouse wheel back or forward adjusts the font size. Colour blindness can we dealt with through adjusting hue, saturation and brightness, computer sotware or screen overlays. User:Eubulides gives a answer to your why in the 5th point in his start of this subsection, which I link to rather then repeat. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 21:20, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Point taken, but are such articles featured? Considering an image to be a primary source in the way a book is is a bit of a stretch here anyway. The closest thing in that policy is "a work of art". I really don't feel that WP:PRIMARY has any application in to this issue. This is blatant Original Research using a non-literary source because what is often being said about an image is subjective. Paraphrasing a document is one thing - guessing about things in an image is entirely another. My primary reason for disagreeing the use of ALT texts is not policy though, and I wrote above, it is that we don't do other more useful things to make our articles handicapped accessible, so why is this required? —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 20:42, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- I could pick apart any plot summary in a similar fashion. Colin°Talk 20:25, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- How about this from the lead of Thomas R. Marshall: "Head and shoulders of a sixty year old man with a serious expression and many deep wrinkles in his skin. He has a bushy mustache and his hair is parted. He is wearing a high collared shirt and a neck tie." Is he 60, how can we tell, maybe he is 70? Is his expression serious, seems ambiguous? And this one in the body for the image of the statehouse: "A view looking down on a large building made of limestone. It is three stories high with two wings sweeping out from a central atrium with a domed stained glass roof", is the building really made of limestone how do we know? Are we sure it is three stories high, I count four. Are we sure it has a stained glass roof, looks like copper to me? In any case, none of this is referenced in the article and is not made clear by the photo, yet was insisted upon in the FA review, and passed after being entered. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 20:05, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Can't do other than to agree; it's an absurd inconsistency. The point of sourcing is that anyone who doubts what's being said can go check for themselves, by watching the movie or reading the book or whatever. It's not a goal in and of itself. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:55, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, have you looked at the plot sections of any of our featured articles on TV, film or literature? There's no stretch wrt regarding the image as a primary source. Why should it matter if the source is embedded in our web page or linked at the bottom? Indeed, if we couldn't display the image (because of copyright), we could still describe it in our body text could we not? We describe moving images (films). I agree that some folk here have found difficult image alt-text examples but I could list loads of difficult articles that are jolly hard to do well while following policy. That doesn't stop us trying and surprising ourselves. As for the "other more useful things" argument, that is a logical fallacy. Colin°Talk 21:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
- I must also agree with Colin here. There is a fundamental misunderstanding of what constitutes "original research", a misunderstanding whose logic, consistently applied, would prohibit us from articulating any expression at all aside from direct quotations and mathematical/scientific formulae.—DCGeist (talk) 20:00, 11 March 2010 (UTC)
okay, so we can describe what is in a source, what an expert says about xyz, but we should not describe what is in a picture that is in front of us? While, yes, it is a subjective description, there is also an element of subjectivity in the narrative of what various people have written about xyz subject. While I find alt text a drag to write, isn't there something more important to do than to write pages about why we don't want to do it? Auntieruth55 (talk) 20:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC) <---off to review an article
- The point here, as far I can see, is that the ALT approach is not sustainable, because it is entirely evolving around users' subjectivity - even in the most benign cases, subjectivity is there, which is not the case with all other analogies made above. A plot summary that is subjective can be rephrased to simply say what the plot is about, without guessing; there are works of literary criticism out there that one can use to back further assertions with quotes, there is the book itself to quote verbatim in cases where the event described is subject to interpretation. And, once this is done properly, the resulting plot summary will be the equivalent of a caption, not the equivalent of an alt text. Both caption and summary will say what the image/text has for its subject, not "how" that subject is represented. And even in those cases where it would say how the subject is represented, this can be backed with quotes from secondary sources, preferably attributed.
- The case with alt text is that it adds an entire extra layer of subjectivity, that we otherwise strive to avoid by keeping things within reasonable limits (why we cite sources, why we don't do editorial opinion, and so on). In most cases, it does so for absolutely no reason. To quote one example above: simply introducing an image with the caption "SS Whatever in Whichever harbor" does the job of describing the subject; insisting that we *need* to also say, in alt, "the sun is setting, the waves are splashing, the captain is on deck smoking his pipe" - that adds an entire layer of guesses. Guesses of no encyclopedic value value (us seers, we don't understand "SS Whatever" because there are waves splashing), parasitical to the caption, and evidently contrary to explicit wikipedia policies.
- This is not in any way comparable to summarizing a source and what it says about x subject - doing that is immediately useful for all readers who approach the subject, and the fact that a description/judgment is attributable to a reliable source reduces the amount of subjective detail from infinite to a manageable number. It is probably always gonna be there in some amount, but other cases don't open the door and say: "Come in. You may be of no actual use to anyone, you may prove yourself impossible to correct, but we will make you a norm."
- In the long run, and if left alone, the alt text "solution", at least as it is formulated now, would prove itself unfeasible and undesirable for anyone, even for those who recommend it. The very reason why we "write pages about why we don't want to do it" is that this was imposed on all of us as the definition of quality, when in fact it is quite obviously not, and as a requirement, when it most often solves no actual problem of accessibility (it actually describes things of no actual importance to anyone). We could perhaps leave this thing take its actual toll on the project by letting it prove its obvious contradictions to almost everyone, which it will do sooner or later, but my guess it wouldn't want to let it run amok because it we care about wikipedia. I for one care about tyrannical, impractical guidelines being fabricated, and about editors being supposed to relinquish their understanding of wikipedia guidelines and their common sense for he sake of some purely sentimentalist claim. Dahn (talk) 07:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- For crying out loud folks. TLDR. It is quite apparent that few here have actually looked at any of our plot summaries in all our FAs. They aren't sourced to published literary criticism; they are nearly 100% sourced to the primary material being described. And saying "done properly, the resulting plot summary will be the equivalent of a caption" just shows a gross misunderstanding of the purpose of each. The caption is "Casino Royale", or whatever. I'll repeat: alt-text == plot summary where one deals with a static image and one with a moving one. Exactly the same policy-based flaws can be found in practically every sentence of a plot summary if one is anal enough to apply the arguments used here. I'm not going to bore you all with an example cause I'm sure you are clever enough to do it yourselves. Please, go read some of our FA plot summaries, wait for the little bell to go ding, and stop trying to find excuses to do something tedious but completely harmless to this project and its values. Colin°Talk 08:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Colin, let me summarize it for you: the info in alt text is in most cases irrelevant to any user, blind or non-blind, and does not provide the reader with any objective info (as opposed to leaving some room for objectivity); the analogy with plot summaries for either texts or films is deeply flawed and misleading. Why "deeply flawed", why "misleading"? The answer is in the TLDR part, and I'm not going to bore you with it. Dahn (talk) 08:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- No, the answer wasn't there, just confusion. I can't understand how you say alt text "does not provide the reader with any objective info". I'm not following that at all. I'm not understanding how because the image moves, we can describe it but once it stays still any attempt at description undermines Wikipedia. The hyperbole used here makes me think someone has just suggested we drop WP:V because all those citations are a bit bothersome. Please find me an FA plot summary that you feel would pass the scrutiny being applied here to alt text. Colin°Talk 09:21, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- To be honest, what do you suggest I do now? if I answer in detail it's TLDR, if I don't you'll keep repeating stuff I already answered to. For "moving images": false analogy. For one, nobody here is claiming that describing images is impossible: for pictures, we do that with captions, that do a good job of describing the what and where, and maybe the how, in a manner that has a long tradition. The goal there is that, provided the caption is properly written, anybody with a modicum of intelligence will in the end understand what the picture is of, not what impression that thing makes on me and you. Without going into the various irregularities that some plot summaries may still feature, even at an FA level, I picked out at random The Beginning of the End (Lost) (never watched it, btw). Do you see, in the plot summary, any subjective adjective other than "twitchy" (which one could consider removing, as it adds nothing). I see assessments of symbolism, narrative intentions, critics' speculations et al. in the sections after the plot section, where they are clearly sourced and attributed. What I do see is in the plot section is the equivalent of a caption adapted to the full length of a TV episode.
- Sure, I can some use of alt text in cases such as List of non-ecclesiastical and non-residential works by John Douglas (as much as I still don't understand what those spatial relations may mean to those users who will still never see them), borderline for List of counties in Florida and such (where the alt text for the leading picture makes observations that border on the inane), I can clearly see it for a diagram or some images comparing text attributes or such. But for the love of me: Lebaudy République (where caption would have served to note that this is the airship in question and affixed, we have an absurd alt text telling us about the orange stamp and some faceless people in the general area; where we already read in the caption "The République's gondola and keel lie in a field at Jussy-le-Chaudrier, 3 September 1909" - the relevant info, we get alt telling us "On the right, an airship's gondoloa and keel lie on the ground on the side; on the left several people stand looking toward the camera." - the one informative bit is merely repeated), St. Peter's Basilica ("A very detailed engraved image of a vast interior. The high roof is arched. The walls and piers which support the roof are richly decorated with moulded cherubim and other sculpture interspersed with floral motifs. Many people are walking in the church. They look tiny compared to the building" - priceless; where caption gives us "St. Peter's Basilica from the River Tiber. The iconic dome dominates the skyline of Rome", which is already saying too much and veering into the inane, we get alt: "A view of Rome on a sunny afternoon looking along the river. A bridge crosses the river and beyond it is a hill on which the grey dome of St Peter's rises above ancient buildings and dark pine trees" - none of which is relevant to the picture, almost all of which is subject to interpretation). And so on. Alt text appears to have been designed to give blind people the "feel" of the picture, based on some optimistic (and ultimately condescending) belief that this can be rendered in universal terms and helps the people in question. The result is people having found a way to evade the rigid requirements of wikipedia by creating some loophole for writing down their essays. Nothing in that is comparable to a simple depiction of what happens in a text or a film, whose very purpose is most often explicit (communicable to a mass audience) and, quite often, its own summary.
- (Incidentally, the futility of such exercises is made even more obvious by the fact that editors assume blind people would be helped by a stream of their impressions, but also that they would regard words such as "keel", "gondola", "cherubim", "floral motifs", "pine tree" as irreducible concepts, that when mentioned would appear in the mind of any user...) Dahn (talk) 10:07, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- If you are going to insist an image is an acceptable primary source, then you do need to apply the primary source policy to it, which many alt texts are a clear violation of, as has been pointed out here multiple times. To quote WP:OR
"Reliable primary sources may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source can be used only to make descriptive statements that can be verified by any educated person without specialist knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not make analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims about material found in a primary source. Do not base articles entirely on primary sources. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, as that would make Wikipedia a primary source of that material."
- You CANNOT guess at someone's age, you cannot guess at the meaning of their expression, you cannot guess why an action is occurring, you cannot guess at the material or makeup of items in the image in any way. Unless it is plainly obvious, you can't say it. You can't say "Fifty year old man in tweed suit", you can only say "Man in suit". And when you have cut it down to the basic level that is acceptable by policy, it is nearly worthless for the purpose it is intended - to convey a mood and feeling of an image to the extent that someone who cannot view the image can appreciate it. I would also point out, it is fine to use a primary source to establish a plot, as mentioned above. But if you are using a primary source to make subjective statements about the plot, then you are violating policy. It is ok to use an image to write a very basic description of an image, but the extent to which we are going in putting in details is over the line of what is acceptable and conflicts with other policies. WP:ALT is not unworkable, but it is troublesome in its current form and should not be a requirement here until it is workable. I hate to beat a dead horse, but one last time: Unless what the alt text says is 100% obvious and verifiable from the image itself (or a reliable source) it needs to not be there. No guessing. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:47, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- If you are going to insist an image is an acceptable primary source, then you do need to apply the primary source policy to it, which many alt texts are a clear violation of, as has been pointed out here multiple times. To quote WP:OR
- No, the answer wasn't there, just confusion. I can't understand how you say alt text "does not provide the reader with any objective info". I'm not following that at all. I'm not understanding how because the image moves, we can describe it but once it stays still any attempt at description undermines Wikipedia. The hyperbole used here makes me think someone has just suggested we drop WP:V because all those citations are a bit bothersome. Please find me an FA plot summary that you feel would pass the scrutiny being applied here to alt text. Colin°Talk 09:21, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Colin, let me summarize it for you: the info in alt text is in most cases irrelevant to any user, blind or non-blind, and does not provide the reader with any objective info (as opposed to leaving some room for objectivity); the analogy with plot summaries for either texts or films is deeply flawed and misleading. Why "deeply flawed", why "misleading"? The answer is in the TLDR part, and I'm not going to bore you with it. Dahn (talk) 08:53, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- For crying out loud folks. TLDR. It is quite apparent that few here have actually looked at any of our plot summaries in all our FAs. They aren't sourced to published literary criticism; they are nearly 100% sourced to the primary material being described. And saying "done properly, the resulting plot summary will be the equivalent of a caption" just shows a gross misunderstanding of the purpose of each. The caption is "Casino Royale", or whatever. I'll repeat: alt-text == plot summary where one deals with a static image and one with a moving one. Exactly the same policy-based flaws can be found in practically every sentence of a plot summary if one is anal enough to apply the arguments used here. I'm not going to bore you all with an example cause I'm sure you are clever enough to do it yourselves. Please, go read some of our FA plot summaries, wait for the little bell to go ding, and stop trying to find excuses to do something tedious but completely harmless to this project and its values. Colin°Talk 08:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- We don't describe images with captions, we name them with captions. The caption for a pop star photo tells you nothing about what they look like. The caption for a church tells you what it is called, not what it looks like.
- As for the example plot, it might have helped to pick one we had both seen as I'm at a disadvantage compared to the alt-text criticisms. From what little I know about the series and the description here, I'm guessing there are some surreal images with time and place illusions that make it hard to trust your eyes or the sequence of events. The text "but finds that the gun is not loaded because Locke had no intention of killing Jack earlier that day" is I suspect the writer putting 2+2 together which is WP:OR but pretty harmless. The text "is keeping quiet about his time there" probably makes an assumption based on limited data. The text "he lies that he has no knowledge of Ana Lucia" assumes the falsehood (if one can be sure it is false) is a deliberate and malicious act: perhaps he's just forgetful. The text "Jack, who is thinking of growing a beard" probably assumes that because Jack has said he is thinking of growing a beard that he actually is -- how can we know is inner thoughts? The text "which shows us that these flashforwards occur before Jack's flashforwards" makes my head spin but I'm guessing the actual story presentation isn't straightforward, meaning the the plot summary can only be made by guessing/assuming and the show's writers might be playing with us a bit.
- On the pop star issue: and? How is it helpful that you now know what you're presumably never going to see, in terms another person finds important? So that you what? What is the logical situation in which this becomes relevant information for a blind person? Just so that the blind person would not feel excluded? Then we might as well start describing music for the deaf.
- With the little knowledge I have of that series (I don't recall having watched more than 20 min. of a random episode), it appears to me that the statements you place in quotes refer to info which is made explicit in other episodes - it doesn't rely on guesses, just uses info that is explicitly dealt with elsewhere. It is perhaps one more reason why not to have articles on each episode of a series, but mutatis mutandis it's still the same basic idea, and the analogy with alt is still false.
- The pathological examples are out there, in FAs, and are perfectly compliant with the pathological examples (your wording) presented as good practice in the alt guideline, top to bottom. They are absurd because the guideline is absurd. One either cuts down the alt to the basic useful info that is/should be already in the caption, and uses alt only in cases where it makes sense (where the blind user will miss out on text or numerical values within the picture, or anywhere else it can be reasonably discerned that he is deprived of concrete info explicitly transmitted by the image); or continues and ends up with this nonsense ("there are people on the ground", "the woman is in her forties", "that baby is way pretty"). And the line between useful and idiotic in this case, for any scenario, is so thin, that it's simply not reasonable to even seriously contemplate this being an applicable guideline or policy. If someone wants to apply it and thinks s/he can apply it, let them at least try on their own and not impose this on the rest of wikipedians who realize the implications of going down that path. Dahn (talk) 15:44, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm puzzled at Auntieruth55's reasoning in "While I find alt text a drag to write, isn't there something more important to do than to write pages about why we don't want to do it?" Perhaps there's something more important to do than to write alt text in to FAC nominators. And perhaps alt text should not be a FAC requirement. --Philcha (talk) 08:43, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Just pointing this out as well. The lead of WP:ALT states: "The alt text should be concise and should emphasize the image's most important visual aspects: it should summarize the essence of the image rather than describing every detail." We are expecting an editor to make Original Research and using their own opinion to decide what the most important visual aspect it. We are also asking them to capture the "essence" of the image, which is also subjective. Essence also indicates that it is expected that the significance of the image be conveyed. Without a reliable secondary source, all of that is a total violation of WP:OR. You cannot make any of those calls from primary sources alone. This is the essence of the problem with the guideline. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 13:57, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Plot summary. Plot summary. Plot summary. To rephrase what you've just said but for plot summaries (which we allow, sourced 100% to the primary material): We are asking editors to make original research and use their own opinion to decide what the most important plot aspects to cover. We are asking them to capture the "essence" of the story in a fraction of the words/time that the original took, which is subjective. Essence also indicates that it is expected that the significance of the plot be conveyed [I disagree with this wrt plot and image]. Without a reliable secondary source, all of that is a total violation of WP:OR. You cannot make any of those calls from primary sources alone. This is the essence of the problem with plot summaries.
- When you guys succeed in removing alt-text from our FA criteria, and no doubt demoting the guideline to an essay, I hope you can hold your heads up if the press write a "Wikipedia sticks two fingers up at the blind" article [yes I know the irony of that headline]. I'd welcome someone just came out straight with a "I can't be arsed helping disabled readers" than all this silly wikilawyering over something quite harmless. Shameful. </unwatching> Colin°Talk 14:23, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- "Something must be done to help our disabled readers. This is something, therefore it must be done" just doesn't wash I'm afraid. It has never been made clear who precisely the alt text is meant to target, just for starters. It's a half-baked idea forced through half-cocked. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:47, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Colin, Its not about screwing the blind for me. Its about the reliability and accuracy of what we are presenting our readers. Isn't a blind person equally harmed by unverifiable information? To me, it looks like we are actually hurting the blind by giving them substandard material that wouldn't hold up the scrutiny we employ elsewhere. Its like saying, because you are blind we are not going to not give you the benefit of the enforcement of WP:V on images descriptions. I personally don't want to get rid of WP:ALT, we just need to fix what is broken with it - which is encouraging editors to make guesses about the contents of an image in order to fluff up its alt text. And while WP:ALT remains broken and at odds with our core policies, it should not be an FAC requirement. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 14:51, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- It seems that the WP:CONSENSUS either is split or opposes making alt text a FAC requirement. I suggest the requirement should be removed. --Philcha (talk) 16:24, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. I have never seen why the requirement targetted FAs anyway. If alt text is such a good thing then it should be applied systematically across all of wikipedia's article, not just FAs, and there should be an option to provide default alt text for all images. --Malleus Fatuorum 16:30, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) The consensus was never there even at the start; the requirement seemed to add itself to the criteria anyway. – iridescent 16:33, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
As someone whose dayjob is working with people with disabilities, I am very disappointed and discouraged by parts of this conversation. The internet has the potential to level the playing field for so many people with disabilities, including access to information, communication, leisure, work etc etc. It already does so in many ways. Unfortunately, many web designers still do not give much thought for accessibility issues. Silly but very concrete example: the full range of Skype functions cannot be accessed without using a mouse, which plenty of people can't use, or cannot use easily, for one reason or another.
Alt text for images is mentioned over and over again by experts as a key feature of providing web accessibility for people with disabilities.[1][2][3][4][5] If WP is supposed to be an encyclopedia anybody can edit and to provide free access to the sum of human knowledge, then surely it should also be a website we all can access, read and benefit from. Yes, it is annoying and difficult at times to add alt text; yes, alt text may include a degree of inevitable subjectivity at times; but yes, our best articles, which is what Featured Articles strive to be, should be our best, and that includes conforming to the best practices for not only homegrown concepts such as sourcing, neutral pov, references etc etc, but also the best practices for making this encyclopedia (and the web in general) truly open to everyone. Just as Malleus suggests, the goal should be that all images in WP should have alt text, just as all images everywhere on the web should have them. Since FAs have long provided models for what should be done with WP articles in terms of excellence, this FA requirement for alt-text is appropriate in demonstrating what in fact all should be doing, all the time. --Slp1 (talk) 17:20, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- What I'm noticing in this link you've provided is the recommendation that "alt text should be five words, e.g. dog leaps for a stick". This is certainly not what is being insisted on at the moment (first suggested example at WP:ALT: A Georgian-style terrace house with four floors and an attic. It is red brick, with a slate roof, and the ground floor rendered in imitation of stone and painted white. Each upper floor has four sash windows, divided into small panes. The door, with a canopy over it, occupies the place of the second window from the left on the ground floor.) – iridescent 17:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not knowledgeable about the right length etc of alt-text, though that could and obviously should be discussed, likely elsewhere. (I'll just quickly note however, that the recommendations of the RNIB, the source cited in [6] may have changed from the "5" words thing... this seems to be there latest page, where it talks about "succinct" [7]). I'm more interested in the principle that our best articles should show off web-design best practices requiring alt-text.--Slp1 (talk) 17:43, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- What's very clear from looking at the RNIB guidelibes for alt text is that the way it's being done right now (the pretend you're describing the image to someone via the telephone approach) is completely misguided, and anyone who disagrees is subjected to moral blackmail of the sort we've just seen above. So our best articles are ending up poor examples of how to make wikipedia more accessible, not good examples to be followed. BTW, the RNIB guidelines talk about a maximum of a short sentence, beginning with a keyword. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:49, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, thanks I now see the info about "a short sentence", though I also note further up that "Complex images" whose "full meaning cannot be adequately described in a short phrase or sentence" may require longer descriptions, handled in a somewhat different way technically. I'm not sure how WP software etc would handle the other options suggested. I would agree that our goal should be for the actual alt text used to be of high quality; though as with the articles themselves, we may not get it right first time. The point is to have the goal. --Slp1 (talk) 18:09, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- At the moment, according to the "standards" set by Wikipedia:Alternative text for images, the following is a good example of alt: "Head and shoulders of a serious and dignified woman in her forties, with dark hair up and in a dress with high lace collar and a cameo at her throat, Edwardian style". So is: "Three-quarter oval portrait of a slender woman aged about 30, garbed in black. Her deep-set eyes gaze solemnly over the viewer's shoulder. Her dark, straight hair is parted in the centre without a fringe, combed over the ears, and pulled back in a low bun." If this is the type of info the alt is supposed to covey, we might as well scratch out all our content policies - someone knows better. (Interestingly, I distinctly recall having pointed out the problems with these standards on the associated talk page many months ago, but my comments either ignored or answered with a circular argument about how it's "useful" and how I wouldn't like being blind myself, etc.). Almost nothing in this info is useful to anyone, and cannot possibly be said to impart knowledge - unless it is knowledge of how some editors still set their watches to Romantic era standards. The rest is or should already be covered by the caption. So, no, the point is not to have the goal: in the presence of a caption, the goal is absurd for most conceivable cases. Dahn (talk) 18:22, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- It is perfectly reasonable, in my view, to discuss what constitutes appropriate alt-text (length, detail etc): consulting with knowledgeable sources such as the RNIB document will help guide us here, and I am quite prepared to believe that some changes should be made to the guidelines/examples. However, determining that having alt-text for images as a goal is "absurd", flies in the face of all the available evidence from those who are in the know about web content accessibility. In both cases, as with researching articles here, we should be deferring to the experts who spend their time studying, working, and writing in this area. --Slp1 (talk) 18:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm not being clear about this, as it must be fifth time I raised on this page: the option wikipedia already gives, to all its readers, is a caption, and that most often covers the purposes of alt, if alt is to be kept reasonable ("dog leaps for a stick"). The idea of alt is not absurd, but the application of alt as a default in cases where it adds nothing, and where the caption already summarizes all info that is not inane, is quite clearly absurd. I don't have any dispute with "people in the know". I have a dispute with people who misquote them in a situation where such concerns are most likely already addressed by wikipedia's format and proper editing within the limits set by that format. In an overwhelming majority of cases, it's a situation of "if you write a proper caption, you'd already be describing the image as much as it can and should be described". In those cases, adding alt is merely someone's opportunity to rant. Dahn (talk) 19:28, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- It is perfectly reasonable, in my view, to discuss what constitutes appropriate alt-text (length, detail etc): consulting with knowledgeable sources such as the RNIB document will help guide us here, and I am quite prepared to believe that some changes should be made to the guidelines/examples. However, determining that having alt-text for images as a goal is "absurd", flies in the face of all the available evidence from those who are in the know about web content accessibility. In both cases, as with researching articles here, we should be deferring to the experts who spend their time studying, working, and writing in this area. --Slp1 (talk) 18:45, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Dahn, the reason nobody is picking up on your "let use captions instead of alt text" idea is because it is crap. Go read WP:ALT and stop wasting our time. Colin°Talk 19:37, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Things to do when running out of arguments: ridicule your opponent, marginalize him by claiming you stand for a community and he's all alone, and grossly misrepresent his position. Rest assured, since you first promised you were not going to follow up on this discussion, I was not counting on your attention or your time to spare. And, in fact, I could have saved some of my time by not reading your comments at all, but for some reason you keep posting them as replies to mine...
- For all those users not motivated to misquote me: my argument is not that we should "replace" alt with captions; my argument is that we already have caption which state what the image depicts in the one reasonable way this can be done, a way which is perfectly compatible with what specialists say alt text should be (the "dog leaps for a stick" example). Comparing images with such captions with random images on the net, which as a rule give no verbal clue to blind people as to what they represent, is comparing apples and oranges. Dahn (talk) 19:46, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Dahn, the reason nobody is picking up on your "let use captions instead of alt text" idea is because it is crap. Go read WP:ALT and stop wasting our time. Colin°Talk 19:37, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- One can't help but wonder why this available evidence wasn't taken into consideration before this half-baked idea was foisted onto the FA criteria. The situation now is that we have a significant number of FAs with alt text that is to all intents and purposes largely useless, does not meet the recommendations of expert bodies like the RNIB, and a few zealots pushing more of the same. A bit of a joke really. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:52, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, to be fair, the WP:ALT guideline makes extensive reference to web-accessibility documents from the World Wide Web Consortium, written by big names in the field and widely reffed by others writing on the issues. --Slp1 (talk) 19:08, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- (peeking) Wrt the moral blackmail issue, you will find my disgust is aimed at those who had no intention of helping the blind, wanted to remove the requirement for alt-text from our best articles, and perversely applied their intellect to finding ridiculous supposedly-policy-based excuses for not doing something tedious. Now that Slp1 has steered the discussion towards "how can we improve WP:ALT" might I repeat my initial request that this discussion be moved to WT:ALT where it belongs. The "bit of a joke", is that this is now twice that the FAC talk pages have been filled up with a timesink of a discussion when that energy could have been applied to WP:ALT months ago. Alt-text is a web-accessibility-requirement we have shamefully ignored. Let's find ways of adopting it rather than writing nonsense about OR. Colin°Talk 19:22, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't seen anyone display a reluctance to help the blind, quite the reverse. I recall wondering why the move to provide alt text wasn't more generally targetted rather than just at FA. The discussion as to whether alt text shoould be part of the FA criteria is quite rightly here. The discussion about what alt text ought to look like obviously ought to be elsewhere, but what's equally obvious is that the alt text now being produced is next to useless and likely helping nobody. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:39, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Criterion two is "It follows the style guidelines, including the provision of—". The "including the provision of—" reads to me as mere elaboration, not a limitation to the provisions thereafter. WP:ALT is a style guideline. Weren't FAs, then, supposed to follow it even before the requirement was "hard coded" into criterion three? I don't particularly care for WP:ALT, but do the criteria, as worded, not bind us to it by virtue of the community's decision to make it a MOS guideline? Is this then a conversation more appropriate for WP:ALT's talk page? Эlcobbola talk 17:33, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I think it does Эlcobbola. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 18:26, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Have now added a specific caveat to WP:ALT to hopefully overcome the WP:NOR/WP:NPOV issues. Regards, SunCreator (talk) 18:26, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
Down the rabbit hole that is OR
Everything aside from straight-up quotation is OR in some way or other, because it requires interpretation. Reorganization of material, selection of details, and paraphrasing involves making choices and interpreting meaning. Different editors will make different choices. The question is how much reorganization, selection, and paraphrase you think constitutes a violation of Wikipedia's policy or spirit. There is a spectrum - where are you on it? I met someone the other day who thought every article on Wikipedia was OR because of these very principles - perhaps we can agree that none of us fall there? Awadewit (talk) 16:58, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Jeez, I hope not. It's like that guy in college who says everyone's a racist. You, you, and you. None of us can ever get away from it. --Moni3 (talk) 17:11, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- In addition to Awadewit's comment on WP:OR, WP:NPOV runs into "Reorganization of material, selection of details, and paraphrasing involves making choices and interpreting meaning". WP:OR and WP:NPOV are ideals which we can't fully attain, but must always aspire to. --Philcha (talk) 20:41, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree with the above. Also:
- The idea that alt text "is blatant Original Research using a non-literary source because what is often being said about an image is subjective." may sound like a serious problem in theory, but in practice it's rarely an issue. When one is summarizing a text source in text, one does the best job one can; if another editor spots a problem with the summary and objects to it, then the two editors can work it out using standard dispute resolution mechanisms. Resolving any such dispute requires editorial judgment that is often inherently subjective. The same is true for summarizing an image in alt text. Disputes about alt text are quite rare in my experience, but I've had them, and their subjective elements are easily resolved in a similar way, by discussing things on the talk page (it's never gone further than that).
- More generally, I'd like to say again that alt text shouldn't be that hard. Please don't spend a lot of time on any particular piece of alt text, worrying about subjectivity and semiotics and whatnot. Just write something down in a minute or two and then move on. Obviously there are exceptional cases (and SlimVirgin's example of Muhammad al-Durrah incident is a good one of an image where the visual description itself is hotly disputed), but these are exceedingly rare in practice.
Eubulides (talk) 20:50, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- I only disagree slightly with that. I agree that problems can be easily fixed on sight, and to a degree everything we do here is in part due to our subjective opinions, but we keep that in check by using reliable sources. I think we really do flirt the line of original research quite a bit with these alt texts. There are lots of acceptable examples out there of how it could be done , but there are lots of unacceptable uses in practice. WP:ALT, the guideline itself, encourages editors to go over the line of what is acceptable. Take the example of the "Gregiorian house", WP:PRIMARY says that you can't make an interpretation that a non-specialist could not determine. If all I have is an image, and I am a non-specialist, I don't know if that house is Gregorian, or Tudor, or Federal, or Edwardian, or Victorian. And the line between some of those is so fine that only a specialist would know. (Look at the example of pharmacophore, there is no way a non-expert would have any idea what that image is about; where's the citation?) In both of those cases, that level of specificity is what the caption is for, where it can also be attributed. Making a specific statement like those two examples without a secondary source is a problem.
- The most common problem I see in practice is photos of people where we are guessing at their age, using the image and a secondary source to determine about when a photo was taken, which is the very definition of WP:SYNTH - using two sources to arrive at a conclusion not explicitly made by either source. Look at the more complex examples on the ALT page, like the map of moving Canada, it is citing dates and events that would require in line citations elsewhere. Guess to boil my beef down, I think we are being too specific with the alt texts rather than focusing on the real basic elements of the images. I personally use alt text in my articles now, and will continue to do so whether or not this requirement stays or goes. I am just not going to do so with the specificity called for at WP:ALT unless I am actually sure what I am writing is covered by my source. That is the sum for me. I will let the rest of you figure out if you are going to keep it as a requirement; it really has no impact on me one way or the other. I have just been giving my honest opinion :) The ALT guidelines needs more than just a disclaimer about other policies, it needs to be completely redone to discourage the frivolity that is now encouraging. —Charles Edward (Talk | Contribs) 21:33, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for that comment. I adjusted the alt text for two of the examples along the lines suggested. The pharmacophore example is a trickier matter, though, as WP:ALT#Chemistry notes; but we probably should be taking this part of the discussion off to WT:ALT. Eubulides (talk) 21:49, 12 March 2010 (UTC)
This issue needs to be sorted, and quickly
Serious concerns have been raised above about the quality of alt text (OR and so on), and the only FA check seems to be that it's present. To me that's analogous to saying that the article meets 1a, because prose is present. I have so far opposed two FACs because of the mini-essays masquerading as useful alt text, and I'm perfectly prepared to go on doing that unless some sanity prevails here. The present WP:ALT guidelines are misguided, and until they're sorted out I propose that the requirement for alt text, at least in the essay form that seems to have taken root, is dropped from the FA criteria. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:57, 14 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well go over to WT:ALT and work through the issues there. I created a talk-page-topic to discuss the length issue three days ago and nobody but Eubulides and Slp1 have responded. If editors here feel strongly that WP:ALT at present is "misguided" then propose that it be demoted from guideline status, advertise the proposal at a central location, and work out a consensus. Wikipedia-wide policies and guidelines have no business being discussed in detail here. The RNIB guidelines being currently cited at FAC are probably not 100% appropriate to an encyclopeadia were images tend to be worth describing as opposed to the stock photo and graphic design examples the RNIB used. We currently have the silly situation where external guidelines are being cited in over internal ones. Let's fix the internal guidelines. Colin°Talk 13:13, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is an FA issue because the current alt guidelines have been added to the FA criteria, so it is perfectly proper to discuss it here. I see no evidence that those supporting the present guideline understand the issues, or what needs to be done about them, so little point in further discussion. Further, who is checking the quality of alt text? The only check I see is that it's present, which is far from the checks done on every other aspect of an FA nomination, which is also a subject that needs to be aired here. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I do check the quality of alt text, and I believe Eubulides also does. I am uncertain how you could have missed that, given that I have commented on the quality of the alt text of a number of current FACs. Unfortunately for you, my ideas about what constitutes good alt text are apparently not the same as yours. Ucucha 13:38, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Regardless of whether the FA criteria explicitly mentions WP:ALT, it is still a content guideline that affects all articles on WP, and by implication affects WP's best articles. Your argument could extend to discussing the finer points of WP:OR and WP:V because policy-requirements are part of the criteria. Perhaps we should start a debate on logical quotation marks here? I see no evidence that the lurkers at WT:FAC understand the issues either, but they are jolly good at moaning. There are other people on WP than those who have WP:FAC in their watchlists. Some of them might actually have something useful to add. This is the wrong forum. Colin°Talk 13:51, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is an FA issue because the current alt guidelines have been added to the FA criteria, so it is perfectly proper to discuss it here. I see no evidence that those supporting the present guideline understand the issues, or what needs to be done about them, so little point in further discussion. Further, who is checking the quality of alt text? The only check I see is that it's present, which is far from the checks done on every other aspect of an FA nomination, which is also a subject that needs to be aired here. --Malleus Fatuorum 13:23, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm very much in favour of a guideline as it happens, just very much against the current one. You make a fair point about "the plebs" though; my view is obviously that nobody should have to put up with it. The issue at FA of course is that perhaps for the first time another editor actually takes the trouble to look at the alt text, which is why I suppose the issue has come to a head here. Getting anything changed here at wikipedia is a task that's way beyond my limited stores of patience though, so I guess I'll just have to keep moaning. --Malleus Fatuorum 14:16, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Generally I agree with MF's critisms of WP:ALT and the imposition of WP:ALT on WP:WIAFA. However I feel that the alt text at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Turf Moor/archive1 is OKish. The real problem at this article is that the pics are depressingly monotonous, so the same applies to the alt - half the pics are a waste of space.
- Could someone with better eyes than mine please check the image at File:Jimmy_McIlroy_stand_zoomed.jpg - I suspect the yellow objects are seat covers and read some lettering! --Philcha (talk) 15:57, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- The problem with the pictures, in addition to being monotonous, is that they are of a subject that is not easily photographed. To show the stands, the picture has to be taken at a distance, and detail is lost. To show the detail, the scale is lost. Auntieruth55 (talk) 16:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- There are many problems with the alt text, not least of which it tells me that in this picture that I'm being shown a grass pitch. It could be a lake for all I can see from the picture. And what image will a reference to the colour "claret" or "light blue" summon in a blind person's mind? The last image in the article is of exceedingly poor quality, and the associated alt text seems to be a work of unrelated fiction. And that's just for starters. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:05, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- While I agree colour may often be irrelevant in alt-text, there are three flaws in assuming colour is always irrelevant to a blind person. Firstly, most "blind" people were not blind from birth, so colour may still summon an image. Secondly, colour may carry information (the cheap seats are claret and the light blue ones are for the guests [just making this up]). Lastly, colour carries cultural meaning (such as pink for girls) that even a blind person knows about. Colin°Talk 17:58, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- There may indeed be occasional reasons to mention colour– blue sky may be one for instance, where that may convey an impression of cloudnessness, even though "clear sky" would probably be preferable– but this isn't one of them. And there are innumerable examples of the alt text providing information that just isn't in the image, as in the example of the map of Chile I gave earlier, or the Tuef Moor picture I linked to above. The point that is repeatedly getting lost is that the alt text is supposed to describe the image succinctly, in a few words, not interpret it, embellish it, or attempt to communicate its every last detail. If the precise detail is significant then it ought to be covered in the body of the article's text anyway. There is no justification for alt text longer than one short sentence, and indeed every reason to avoid it if you consider how it's actually used by screen readers or text-only browsers. The often repeated "pretend you're describing the image to someone at the other end of a telephone" is not at all helpful and has led to the present situation in which alt text has become an unwelcome chore for many but what's worse doesn't even fulfill its stated purpose. Hence in its current crippled form it has no place being part of the FA criteria. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- They say a picture tells a thousand words. I find that to properly describe every aspect of the image rather than a one-line sentence that really doesn't provide any information, the reverse is often true as well. I find alt text incredibly difficult to implement, and I have trouble bringing it into the range of one of two sentences. If we can't properly describe an image to a person who cannot see it, or are prevented from doing so by a constant need to reduce the number of words, what is the point of incorporating it? A short and half-assed description is no better than a lack of alt text. I don't see any point in using it if the help it provides is limited at best. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 19:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Some of these issues are covered by the guideline and some are currently being discussed on the guideline talk page. What is certain is that all that is being achieved by an alt-text discussion on WT:FAC is that folk get worked up / let off steam and achieve nothing all at the same time. Colin°Talk 19:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- They say a picture tells a thousand words. I find that to properly describe every aspect of the image rather than a one-line sentence that really doesn't provide any information, the reverse is often true as well. I find alt text incredibly difficult to implement, and I have trouble bringing it into the range of one of two sentences. If we can't properly describe an image to a person who cannot see it, or are prevented from doing so by a constant need to reduce the number of words, what is the point of incorporating it? A short and half-assed description is no better than a lack of alt text. I don't see any point in using it if the help it provides is limited at best. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 19:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- There may indeed be occasional reasons to mention colour– blue sky may be one for instance, where that may convey an impression of cloudnessness, even though "clear sky" would probably be preferable– but this isn't one of them. And there are innumerable examples of the alt text providing information that just isn't in the image, as in the example of the map of Chile I gave earlier, or the Tuef Moor picture I linked to above. The point that is repeatedly getting lost is that the alt text is supposed to describe the image succinctly, in a few words, not interpret it, embellish it, or attempt to communicate its every last detail. If the precise detail is significant then it ought to be covered in the body of the article's text anyway. There is no justification for alt text longer than one short sentence, and indeed every reason to avoid it if you consider how it's actually used by screen readers or text-only browsers. The often repeated "pretend you're describing the image to someone at the other end of a telephone" is not at all helpful and has led to the present situation in which alt text has become an unwelcome chore for many but what's worse doesn't even fulfill its stated purpose. Hence in its current crippled form it has no place being part of the FA criteria. --Malleus Fatuorum 18:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- While I agree colour may often be irrelevant in alt-text, there are three flaws in assuming colour is always irrelevant to a blind person. Firstly, most "blind" people were not blind from birth, so colour may still summon an image. Secondly, colour may carry information (the cheap seats are claret and the light blue ones are for the guests [just making this up]). Lastly, colour carries cultural meaning (such as pink for girls) that even a blind person knows about. Colin°Talk 17:58, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- There are many problems with the alt text, not least of which it tells me that in this picture that I'm being shown a grass pitch. It could be a lake for all I can see from the picture. And what image will a reference to the colour "claret" or "light blue" summon in a blind person's mind? The last image in the article is of exceedingly poor quality, and the associated alt text seems to be a work of unrelated fiction. And that's just for starters. --Malleus Fatuorum 17:05, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- It would be rather easy to remove the requirement for alt text from the FA criteria until the various issues surrounding its correct use are resolved, which is what I believe ought to happen now. Then there would be no further need to discuss it here The present alt text offerings are not setting a good example and by no means represent our best work in this area. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:29, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I agree that it should be removed for now, until all of this is fixed at least. I know I am not a regular contributor to FAC reviews or this talk page, but I have been following this for some time to try and work my understanding of the process. It seems to me that if something is confusing or broken, we shouldn't have it as a requirement until it is clarified or repaired. Anything incomplete really shouldn't be considered mandatory in representing our best works. MelicansMatkin (talk, contributions) 19:40, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- That wouldn't really change much. Criterion 2 says FAs should comply with all style guidelines, and WP:ALT is a style guideline. Ucucha 19:44, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- How is it clearly not feasible? Until it is actually established that our current efforts at Alt-Text is actually more damaging than helpful, then the requirement should stay in place. With all due respect, it is unwise to rush to judgment based on semi-informed opinions (and I include myself here) about what "good" alt-text is. Currently efforts are being made to get some external reviews of the guidelines, and if these come back saying that they are totally out to lunch, I will certainly support temporary removal of the requirement until the problems are sorted out. But that's not the case yet, and it may well be that the guideline is in good shape. In the meantime, if significant changes in the alt-text guidelines do take place in the next few weeks, I personally promise to do any required rewriting to the alt-text of FA articles promoted from now until the guideline stabilizes. --Slp1 (talk) 20:15, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- With all due respect, some things are self-evident and do not need expert input. Like the example of the map of Chile I gave earlier, the alt text for which gave the dimensions of Chile, information that was not available in the image or otherwise available to a reader not seeing the alt text. Nevertheless I'd be prepared not to press for the suspension of the alt text requirement in FACs in view of your offer, at least in the short term, pending expert input. I will though continue to insist that alt text is accurate, does not interpret the image, and does not include detail not available to a reader using a conventional browser. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- The Chile example was a good one, and the alt text for that example obviously needed improvement. However, that relatively-minor problem does not support the claim that alt text "clearly isn't feasible". Alt text clearly is feasible in most cases, including that one. There are some exceptions where alt text isn't feasible in the usual sense, and these exceptional cases are already covered in the guideline (see WP:ALT#Placeholders and WP:ALT#Purely decorative images). No doubt the guideline can be improved, and this is being looked into, but there's a big difference between a reasonably routine improvement to the guideline and a sweeping claim that alt text "clearly isn't feasible". Eubulides (talk) 21:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- That Chilean example I gave was from an FAC it was claimed the alt text in had been checked for quality, and I'd be very confident of finding similar issues with alt text in almost every FAC, There clearly is no quality check, and neither can there be until there's a sensible standard to judge alt text against. Nevertheless, I'm prepared to wait and see what success Slp1 has in recruiting the views and assistance of external experts before pursuing the removal of alt text from the FA criteria, as I said above. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- The previous comment seems to be based on incorrect assumptions. First, no reviewer has said anything like "the alt text is all OK" on that review page. (I was asked to check the alt text for quality, and fixed some obvious problems, but have been busy and have not yet done a full check.) Second, your complaint about the Chilean example was about alt text that was added to the article in response to your stated opposition to the nomination on alt-text grounds. Had you not opposed, the alt text for that image would no doubt have been left alone, and would be in much better shape than it is (at least, it would have addressed your complaint). It is not right to cite, as an example of the failure of the current process, alt text that was inserted in response to your intervention using a different approach. Eubulides (talk) 22:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- That Chilean example I gave was from an FAC it was claimed the alt text in had been checked for quality, and I'd be very confident of finding similar issues with alt text in almost every FAC, There clearly is no quality check, and neither can there be until there's a sensible standard to judge alt text against. Nevertheless, I'm prepared to wait and see what success Slp1 has in recruiting the views and assistance of external experts before pursuing the removal of alt text from the FA criteria, as I said above. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:18, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- The Chile example was a good one, and the alt text for that example obviously needed improvement. However, that relatively-minor problem does not support the claim that alt text "clearly isn't feasible". Alt text clearly is feasible in most cases, including that one. There are some exceptions where alt text isn't feasible in the usual sense, and these exceptional cases are already covered in the guideline (see WP:ALT#Placeholders and WP:ALT#Purely decorative images). No doubt the guideline can be improved, and this is being looked into, but there's a big difference between a reasonably routine improvement to the guideline and a sweeping claim that alt text "clearly isn't feasible". Eubulides (talk) 21:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- With all due respect, some things are self-evident and do not need expert input. Like the example of the map of Chile I gave earlier, the alt text for which gave the dimensions of Chile, information that was not available in the image or otherwise available to a reader not seeing the alt text. Nevertheless I'd be prepared not to press for the suspension of the alt text requirement in FACs in view of your offer, at least in the short term, pending expert input. I will though continue to insist that alt text is accurate, does not interpret the image, and does not include detail not available to a reader using a conventional browser. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- The alt text on this image from this FAC certainly had been QA'd, as I explicitly asked about it earlier. There is no way from that picture a reader could tell the house was made of brick. This problem is endemic and is being pushed under the carpet. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- No, the image you're talking about was not QA'd: it was added after the reviewer wrote "alt text fine". So this is another example based on incorrect assumptions. Look, I'm sure that one can find errors in alt text. even (if one looks hard enough) in alt text that's been reviewed. So what? That doesn't mean alt text is worthless, any more than the existence of errors in reviewed article text and citations mean that article text and citations are worthless. Eubulides (talk) 23:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- The alt text on this image from this FAC certainly had been QA'd, as I explicitly asked about it earlier. There is no way from that picture a reader could tell the house was made of brick. This problem is endemic and is being pushed under the carpet. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:04, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- You'll be running out of carpet soon Eubulides. I asked Ucucha explicity about that FAC earlier today, and I was reassured that it had been checked, and that all FACs are checked, for the quality of their alt text. Don't shoot the messenger. It's perfectly clear that alt text isn't being held to the same standard as every other aspect of an FA candidate, and that needs to be sorted. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:37, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I check when articles arrive at FAC, and don't have time to watch every article that is currently at FAC for people adding new images. If you look at the current FACs, you'll see that there are several where I commented on the quality of the alt text or made fixes myself. Ucucha 23:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- You'll be running out of carpet soon Eubulides. I asked Ucucha explicity about that FAC earlier today, and I was reassured that it had been checked, and that all FACs are checked, for the quality of their alt text. Don't shoot the messenger. It's perfectly clear that alt text isn't being held to the same standard as every other aspect of an FA candidate, and that needs to be sorted. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:37, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
I suppose that's fair enough, as you don't actually support the article, but your "tick in the box" inevitably means that other editors probably don't check the alt text for themselves, thinking the job's done, which in this case it clearly wasn't. Adding images during an FAC is a fairly rare occurrence though. Would you care to point me towards an FAC whose alt text you'd stand behind right now? --Malleus Fatuorum 23:54, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Look at any FAC at the time I approved of the alt text. I can see how that is a problem, but the same goes for Ealdgyth's source-checking and other people's image copyright checking. Ucucha 00:05, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Not quite the same, because the alt text is hidden unless you take special measures to see it, and nobody appears to have the vaguest idea as to how to write it anyway. Image licensing and sourcing are well established guidelines. WP:Alt isn't. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- It is very similar. Most readers don't look at image licensing, because one must take special measures to see it: one must click on the image and look at the file page. Similarly, most readers don't look at the alt text, because they need to take a special measure (click on the image and look at its properties). Sources are even worse than alt text: not only do most readers not read the sources, in many cases most readers don't even have access to a source. Furthermore, most readers (and many editors) don't know how image use policy and sourcing really works; often FAC is the way they learn this stuff. Sources and images are regularly added to articles during the FAC process, just as alt text is. The alt text guideline is newer than many other guidelines, but it is well established here and the problems and concerns mentioned above do resemble those of images and sourcing. Eubulides (talk) 01:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Eubulides, I agree with Malleus:
- Almost images and clips are one of self-made, PD or copyright. For copyright media, you copy and adapt a FUR you've seen recently, or an existing FUR in the same File. So almost media are no-brainers.
- Sources that are not easily accessible are usually accepted as WP:AGF, so there's no special measure.
- Malleus and I have already examples with the current "physical description" guideline is inappropriate. WP:ALT has not been thought out, should not be a guideline in its current change, and should not be a FAC / FAR require until well thought out. Examples include:
- The significance (short) is more useful than the "physical description" (long) - e.g. Nelson's death on Victory.
- Sounds. What's the "physical description"?
- Other non-visual senses, e.g. smell and taste - very significant for e.g. Durian, Chili pepper or Chili powder. What's the "physical description" for these?
- Sheet music, with the notes and staves and key signatures and all the other stuff I never understand in my brief piano lessons. --Philcha (talk) 05:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Eubulides, I agree with Malleus:
- It is very similar. Most readers don't look at image licensing, because one must take special measures to see it: one must click on the image and look at the file page. Similarly, most readers don't look at the alt text, because they need to take a special measure (click on the image and look at its properties). Sources are even worse than alt text: not only do most readers not read the sources, in many cases most readers don't even have access to a source. Furthermore, most readers (and many editors) don't know how image use policy and sourcing really works; often FAC is the way they learn this stuff. Sources and images are regularly added to articles during the FAC process, just as alt text is. The alt text guideline is newer than many other guidelines, but it is well established here and the problems and concerns mentioned above do resemble those of images and sourcing. Eubulides (talk) 01:45, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Not quite the same, because the alt text is hidden unless you take special measures to see it, and nobody appears to have the vaguest idea as to how to write it anyway. Image licensing and sourcing are well established guidelines. WP:Alt isn't. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:21, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
WP:ALT under discussion
Given the strong feelings here, but a complete unwillingness to actually do something productive about it, I have placed WP:ALT "under discussion". Please see Wikipedia talk:Alternative text for images#Guideline. This step follows our Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines procedure for discussing and potentially demoting a guideline. If anyone knows how to advertise it more widely (community portal?), please do so. I don't recall anywhere on that procedure that guidelines should be discussed at WT:FAC. Would everyone please move this discussion where it belongs. Thank you. Colin°Talk 21:24, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- This discussion is about whether alt text as currently implemented should remain as one of the FA criteria. As such it is perfectly proper that it is discussed here. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:28, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- That's precisely what I think of the current alt text guidelines. Lame. My view is that alt text has been given a free ride so far as the FA criteria is concerned, because "we must do something about accessibility and this is something". Time to get real. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:09, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'd prefer the one where wikipedia gets it right, instead of going off half-cocked. The present guideline should never have been exalted with that name; let's hope its replacement will be better. If not, then I will continue to argue that the alt text requirement is removed from the FA criteria. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Related proposal at VP that would make this criterion irrelevant
Please see here. Since alt text is a bigger issue than FA criteria, I have posted something at VPT that might make the entire discussion moot. I write this with the obvious caveats that the proposal may be rejected and I cannot unilaterally implement any change to Mediawiki software. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:42, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
Attempt to refocus alt text discussion
- It is—
- (a) well-written: its prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of a professional standard;
- (b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context;
- (c) well-researched: it is a thorough and representative survey of the relevant literature on the topic. Claims are verifiable against high-quality reliable sources and are supported by inline citations where appropriate;
- (d) neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias; and
- (e) stable: it is not subject to ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured article process.
- It follows the style guidelines, including the provision of—
- (a) a lead: a concise lead section that summarizes the topic and prepares the reader for the detail in the subsequent sections;
- (b) appropriate structure: a system of hierarchical section headings and a substantial but not overwhelming table of contents; and
- (c) consistent citations: where required by criterion 1c, consistently formatted inline citations using either footnotes (<ref>Smith 2007, p. 1.</ref>) or Harvard referencing (Smith 2007, p. 1)—see citing sources for suggestions on formatting references; for articles with footnotes, the meta:cite format is recommended. The use of citation templates is not required.
- Images. It has images that follow the image use policy and other media where appropriate, with succinct captions, brief and useful alt text when feasible, and acceptable copyright status. Non-free images or media must satisfy the criteria for inclusion of non-free content and be labeled accordingly.
- Length. It stays focused on the main topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
The alt text discussion seems stalled, with issues of policy vs. guideline becoming the core of the debate. I'm hoping that picking apart WP:WIAFA with respect to guideline vs. policy will help refocus efforts. I've started a new section since some of this may veer off of alt text.
All of the items in Part 1 are based on policy, are long-standing, or essential parts of "Wiki's best work. Do we agree on that?
All of Part 2 is MoS, a guideline.
Part 3 is images, containing a mix of policy and guideline.
Part 4 is guideline.
With respect to Parts 2 and 4 (WP:MOS and WP:SIZE), these have always been handled as a guideline at FAC; when consensus is to override a guideline, that has applied, and no FAC to my knowledge has ever been held up strictly on 2. or 4. concerns. (To my dismay, since I personally believe WP:SIZE should be more strictly enforced at FAC because of the accessibility and readability issues caused by extra-long articles, but consensus often overrules me.) My point is that, guideline has always been enforced as guideline, not policy, at FAC. We also recently revamped 2c to remove specific wording that was introduced in 2005 when inline citations became required, so that it now more simply refers back to the guideline.
Can part of the problem be sorted by considering that Part 3 mixes policy and guideline? The parts of it that refer to image policy perhaps could be separated from those that refer to MoS guildeines, with MoS guideline portions moved to Part 2, to get FAC out of the perennial MOS wars. Alt text and captions are guideline (and some FA writers include very long captions and those get by here because consensus allows it). More importantly, I'm hoping we'll focus here on which guidelines we specifically mention in WIAFA, since the policy vs. guideline debate over alt text brings to mind another image issue, which I believe also reflects policy on original research; that is, the use of recolored or altered images in articles, which are generally OR.
Will looking at the alt text issue from this point of view help move the discussion forward? I believe it will, since we don't typically refuse FA status when consensus overrules on guidelines, but we need to sort guideline from policy issues. We don't want to see articles FAR'd or denied promotion over alt text, but we also don't want to see original research in images or alt text.
I'm more concerned when original research images are used-- since most of our readers see those and they may be carried on mirrors-- than I am about the rare instances where original research might creep into alt text on images that are hard to describe, and suggest we could handle those on a consensus basis. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:17, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- I disagree with "All of the items in Part 1 are based on policy, are long-standing, or essential parts of "Wiki's best work". As I've said to you (or maybe it was Tony) before, I disagree that 1a as it stands reflects either policy or good practice; "of a professional standard" is not what we should be aiming for. The prose quality of professionally written academic articles is generally tedious, inaccessable and presupposes a reasonable level of knowledge. Wikipedia articles are written with Giano's hypothetical "bright 14 year old with no previous knowledge of the topic" in mind, and and need a quite different approach than that taken by professional publications; however, the unique advantages given to us by hypertext mean that we don't have to explain everything, so the "Readers' Digest/Foo for Dummies" approach isn't appropriate either. – iridescent 18:22, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Is this really worth discussing? Alt text is part of our requirements now, we are unlikely to gain consensus to remove it. I find that alt text can be written in about five minutes, usually there are quibbles, but it really doesn't take too long to fix. I'm not a huge fan of it, but it is just one of the hoops you got to jump through here. I say this discussion is not productive. By the way, what is an "original research image"? One taken by the nominator? I hope not. I commonly take images of buildings, graves, etc. of relevance to my articles when I can, because free use can be hard to find.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, it is worth discussing, at least in part because almost all of the alt text being written is unhelpful crap, not to put too fine a point on it. It seems perverse to insist on crap being added to what are supposed to be wikipedia's best articles, and I think you may find that there's a significant majority who would be in favour of removing the requirement for alt text from the FA criteria and demoting WP:ALT from being a guideline if the bull isn't soon taken by the horns. --Malleus Fatuorum 20:25, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- I interpret "original research image" to mean where the selection of the image, or the image's cropping or other alteration, raises significant original-research issues. For example, today's featured article Ruffed lemur contains Image:Varecia variegata overbite.jpg as an illustration of a typical overbite of a ruffed lemur, but no reliable source supports the claim that the illustrated overbite is typical, or even that it is an overbite of a ruffed lemur. This sort of issue is present in most featured articles. We put up with it because most of the time it would be impossible for an article to contain all its images if we strictly insisted on enforcing WP:OR for every image. Eubulides (talk) 20:41, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- @ Iri, OK, but for the purposes of this discussion, I wanted to focus on the mix of policy and guideline in Parts 2 thru 4, hopefully as a way through the discussion. By "original research images", I meant old images that are doctored, recolored or otherwise altered; that is OR. But Eubulides raises other issues. My goal was to separate image policy from guidelines, so that in difficult cases, we can let consensus rule rather than insisting that a guideline be followed. We routinely overlook guidelines at FAC when there's a good reason to do so, according to reviewer consensus (although I rarely agree on SIZE, but I go along with consensus). I'm trying to find a way around the rare situations where alt text is a problem. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:54, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Alt text is a problem in pretty much every FAC, certainly all the ones I've looked at anyway. It's only gone unnoticed that it's a problem until recently because everyone regards it as a chore and hasn't been bothering to check it. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- All the problems MF has cited so far were of alt text that hadn't been reviewed. But even if they had been reviewed, it shouldn't be surprising that a sharp critic of the current guidelines would find problems in articles that try to follow the guidelines. Eubulides (talk) 22:10, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Alt text is a problem in pretty much every FAC, certainly all the ones I've looked at anyway. It's only gone unnoticed that it's a problem until recently because everyone regards it as a chore and hasn't been bothering to check it. --Malleus Fatuorum 21:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Getting back to the main point of this thread, it might be helpful to separate discussion of policies. The existing WP:FACR's preamble is technically incorrect, in that it says "In addition to meeting the requirements for all Wikipedia articles, it has the following attributes" and then goes on to list (among other things) several policies that are part of (not "in addition to") Wikipedia requirements. To fix this problem the preamble could be reworded to something like ""In addition to meeting the requirements for all Wikipedia articles, particularly including policies A, B, and C, it has the following attributes" where the "A, B, and C" could be a bullet list of the policies that are relevant here. Eubulides (talk) 22:10, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Could that be done without altering 1a thru 1e? Those go way back at FAC, are standard terminology, so I'm reluctant to change them-- that would make reading old FACs a nightmare, since 1c, 1e, 1a etc. are standard FAC terminology. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:13, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
Alt text should be brief
- In addition to the criticisms of WP:ALT by Malleus and myself, a searches in Google Books and Google Scholar show a majority of sources advocate only short alt text, a minority preferred short or long alt text depending on situation, and none advocate only long alt text:
- WP:ALT contradicts all the sources, as well as having the defects mentioned above, and should be demotion from a guideline to an essay until a thorough analysis is done and there has been time for discussion. As this will take time, the requirement for alt text should be removed from WP:WIAFA as soon as possible. --Philcha (talk) 02:18, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- ^ McAlpine, Rachel (2001). "The Fine Art of Writing Alt-Text". Ten Speed Press. pp. 109–112. ISBN 1580082238 http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=kiQvDUIUEmcC&pg=PA101&dq=%22alt+text%22&ei=-RCgS5L8K4O0zATHqL2JDQ&client=firefox-a&cd=6#v=onepage&q=%22alt%20text%22&f=false. Retrieved 16 Mar 2010.
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(help) - ^ Chisholm, Wendy (2008). "Metadata". Universal design for Web applications. O'Reilly Media, Inc. pp. 25–26. ISBN 0596518730. Retrieved 16 Mar 2010.
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suggested) (help) - ^ Slatin, John M. (2003). "Equivalent Alternatives". Maximum accessibility: making your Web site more usable for everyone. Addison-Wesley. pp. 246–251. ISBN 0201774224. Retrieved 16 Mar 2010.
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suggested) (help) - ^ Bidgoli, Hossein (2004). "Access to Text Descriptions". The Internet encyclopedia. Vol. 3. John Wiley and Sons. p. 479. ISBN 0471222038. Retrieved 16 Mr 2010.
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(help) - ^ Clark, Joe (2003). "The Image Problem". Building accessible websites. New Riders. pp. 63–64. ISBN 073571150X. Retrieved 17 Mar 2010.
- ^ Robson, Gary D. (2004). "Accessible Web Site Design". The closed captioning handbook. Gulf Professional Publishing. pp. 279–280. ISBN 0240805615.
- ^ Slatin, John M. (2001)). "The art of ALT: toward a more accessible Web" (PDF). Computers and Composition. 18 (1). Elsevier Science Inc.: 78–79. doi:10.1016/S8755-4615(00)00049-9. Retrieved 17 Mar 2010.
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(help) - ^ McEwan, Tom (2007). "ALT Text and Basic Accessibility" (PDF). Proceedings of the 21st BCS HCI Group Conference. 2. British Computer Society. Retrieved 17 Mar 2010.
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- Thanks Philcha. Those links will prove useful for building a sensible ALT guideline. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- The alt text guideline is already sensible, as it already advocates short alt text, and has for some time. I chose the most recent source above that is said to recommend short alt text, McEwan & Weerts 2007: what it says is that "ALT text should also be kept as accurate and succinct [as] possible." This closely resembles WP:ALT#Brevity's "Alt text should be concise, so that it does not burden the visually impaired reader with unnecessary text." What's news to me is that some sources (McAlpine 2001, and Chisholm & May 2008) recommend long alt text in some cases. Perhaps this advice should also be placed into the guideline, as a minority opinion. At any rate, this discussion would be better done at WT:ALT, not here. Eubulides (talk) 06:26, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks Philcha. Those links will prove useful for building a sensible ALT guideline. Firsfron of Ronchester 04:51, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
Just so everyone knows....
There is a discussion on article protection going on here, which would benefit from some article writers' input. Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:44, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
Plea
We really need eyes on the bottom few FAC nominations. A few of these are on their second nomination, with the first having been closed for lack of comments. I would really hate to have to close these again because of a lack of eyes. Karanacs (talk) 22:06, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'll review one or two in the morning. Graham Colm (talk) 22:19, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please can people add comments to Hurva Synagogue aswell, thanks, Chesdovi (talk) 13:05, 10 March 2010 (UTC)
Source reviews... (2)
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion/archive3--Andy Walsh (talk) 22:25, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Give It 2 Me/archive1--Andy Walsh (talk) 21:56, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Parks and Recreation (season 1)/archive2--Andy Walsh (talk) 03:15, 16 March 2010 (UTC)Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Anarchy Online/archive2Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 23:46, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Since I handled most of them today... these still need doing. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:26, 13 March 2010 (UTC)
It's an essay at the moment, and there's a proposal on the talk page to promote it to guide-line status. It was linked at MOSQUOTE earlier today, although I removed that pending improvements. I've done an initial copy-edit, and have left several inline comments about organisation/repetition. IMO, it needs a few more examples. What do people think? Tony (talk) 00:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Need to avoid duplication with WP:PLAGIARISM, otherwise inconsistencies will appear. --Philcha (talk) 05:20, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
FAC disruption
User:Fram has three times now reverted me at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of logic/archive1.
He also removed my links to the talk page, which means they can't be found when viewing the full WP:FAC page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for not notifying me of this discussion... I have not reverted you three times, I have searched a balanced solution three times, and you reverted to your preferred position each time. I was not aware of the problem with removing the talk page links, I would have added them if you just asked, or would not have reverted you if you added those to my last edit (which is the first of your links, your order is a bit strange). You have problems with owning the page, and implicitly defending one position above another. Could you point out, apart from the missing link to the talk page, what is wrong with my neutral, non intrusive last attempt at compromise and minimal disruption, compared to the bolded onesided rant that was there previously? Fram (talk) 21:07, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please calm down and read your talk page: I quite specifically linked to this discussion on your talk page with my first notice. Please stop politicizing FAC, and take the issue elsewhere; the purpose of FAC is to evaluate articles wrt WP:WIAFA, nothing else. I've also noticed you about 3RR. Reviewers are uninterested in the "rant" you're so concerned about; the focus here is on reviewing articles. Please take your issue elsewhere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please don't tell me to calm down, I am perfectly calm. I am quite amazed at your arguments or lack thereof though. Where have I "politicized" FAC? I have tried to get a one sided off topic notice replaced by a balanced, shorter and less intrusive note. You insist on keeping the rant you claim "reviwers are uninterested in" on the FAC page. You are not behaving in a neutral or reasonable way here, but are imposing your view of what belongs and what doesn't, even if you have no arguments at all for it. You have brought this issue here, don't ask me to take it elsewhere. Fram (talk) 21:15, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- It didn't strike me that you were calm when you started by thanking me for not notifying you of this discussion, when I explicitly had. First, please sign the entry on the FAC so reviewers won't mistakenly think the statement came from me. Second, please refrain from reverting delegate decisions on a FAC; if you have a problem with FAC, discuss here at WT:FAC. THAT is politicizing FAC, and what we seek to avoid here. The non-article related issues don't belong here; we need enough on the FAC for reviewers to know the situation. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- My apologies for claiming that you didn't notify me of this discussion. I hadn't realised that the linked text "stop disrupting the FAC itself" linked to here. Not very "explicit" or clear perhaps, but you did link it on my talk page, so I shouldn't have claimed that you didn't. I have now signed the entry: I believ it is quite ridiculous to do so, it is just a pointer to a moved discussion (you moved it), worded very neutrally. Why anyone would care whether Raul, you, me or anyone else added it is beyond me, but if it makes you happy... Apart from that: I did not start the discussion, nor did I continue it on the FAC page once you moved it to the talk page. I only objected to the partial, one-sided way you made that move, leaving one comment but removing a reply, thereby giving much more visibility to one side of the argument than the other. If the argument doesn't belong on the FAC page, then all of it should have been moved, as has been done now. And with that, I am done here. Please don't act in such a possessive way in the future: being somewhat responsible for a page doesn't mean that you are right and that others are disruptive, nor that you are exempt from 3RR. Fram (talk) 21:29, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- It didn't strike me that you were calm when you started by thanking me for not notifying you of this discussion, when I explicitly had. First, please sign the entry on the FAC so reviewers won't mistakenly think the statement came from me. Second, please refrain from reverting delegate decisions on a FAC; if you have a problem with FAC, discuss here at WT:FAC. THAT is politicizing FAC, and what we seek to avoid here. The non-article related issues don't belong here; we need enough on the FAC for reviewers to know the situation. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:19, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please don't tell me to calm down, I am perfectly calm. I am quite amazed at your arguments or lack thereof though. Where have I "politicized" FAC? I have tried to get a one sided off topic notice replaced by a balanced, shorter and less intrusive note. You insist on keeping the rant you claim "reviwers are uninterested in" on the FAC page. You are not behaving in a neutral or reasonable way here, but are imposing your view of what belongs and what doesn't, even if you have no arguments at all for it. You have brought this issue here, don't ask me to take it elsewhere. Fram (talk) 21:15, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Please calm down and read your talk page: I quite specifically linked to this discussion on your talk page with my first notice. Please stop politicizing FAC, and take the issue elsewhere; the purpose of FAC is to evaluate articles wrt WP:WIAFA, nothing else. I've also noticed you about 3RR. Reviewers are uninterested in the "rant" you're so concerned about; the focus here is on reviewing articles. Please take your issue elsewhere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Moved from User talk:SandyGeorgia: SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of logic/archive1
Please don't move essential parts of a discussion while leaving other, equally off-topic parts alone. You are supporting one POV with those edits. Your continued refusal to change this to a more balanced position is noted, and your silly edit summaries, with a serious overtone of WP:OWNing the page, are quite ridiculous. I have disrupted less than you or Bishonen did (never mind that his rant was bolded, as if it was the most important message on the whole page). Feel free to continue with the promotion of the work of a banned and truly disruptive editor though. Fram (talk) 21:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- What difference does it make whether content was added by a "banned and truly disruptive editor" or not if it's good quality? --Malleus Fatuorum 21:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- What does make a difference is when outside, uninvolved admins interfere with and politicize the business of FAC, which is to evaluate articles, and revert delegate decisions to that aim. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- When your aim is off, it is up to others to correct it. And when I am explicitly named and shamed in an edit, I am not an uninvolved admin anymore. Fram (talk) 21:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I've actually had to leave my house in the midst of half the town having no power and no cable service, to get off of dialup and deal with this. In the future, if you have a problem at FAC, please post to WT:FAC or a delegate, where the problem will be addressed. Please refrain from politicizing and edit warring at FAC, whose purpose is to evaluate articles, not admin politics. Thanks, I'd appreciate that, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Fram, your movement of information and resulting link is a poor choice. I got to the end of that FAC page and couldn't even figure out why the link was there. You've removed information essential to understanding what's happened on the page. --Andy Walsh (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Correct. If Fram had a problem with Bish's wording, he should have taken that up with her. At any rate, the more important point to me is that uninvolved admins not politicize and edit war on a FAC, rather discuss with delegates or at WT:FAC. Even more so when I'm in the midst of a historic storm and on dialup :) Had he brought it to WT:FAC, someone with FAC experience would have dealt with it, since most FA regulars follow my talk and know I was on dialup. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:39, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Well, I've restored the text. FAC delegates and reviewers shouldn't have to be confounded by a passing admin action in this way. --Andy Walsh (talk) 21:43, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- (ec)I had a problem with the wording, that's why I responded to it, but you started with leaving Bishonen's post but removing my reply. Please don't twist the facts. And Andy, what info is missing? Everything that was on the FAc page (four posts in all) was completely and unchanged moved to the start of the talk page. Nothing else happened, nothing was changed. The only dispute was about how much of the off topic discussion should be kept on the main FAC page. And SandyGeorgia, I was not uninvolved, the comment was about me and suggested bringing my actions up on ANI. Fram (talk) 21:48, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- I'm indifferent to what ends up there, as long as reviewer and article needs are served, and reviewers can decide whether to continue reviewing and improving the article. Our focus here is on the article, not personal or admin politics. I am not indifferent to the politicization of FAC, and want to assure that edit warring on FACs does not talk hold, and admins discuss edits at WT:FAC or with delegates. Would have been much simpler, particularly since I was on dialup, and many others here know how FAC issues are handled. We almost never remove entire comments, only move to talk when things go off-topic. Perhaps you can come to agreement here with others about what wording to leave now, since you have caused us both to reach 3RR, so I can't do anything else now; that might have been avoided by discussing rather than reverting a delegate. The goal here is to encourage article review and improvement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- (ec) Fram, from my perspective (which is that of a reviewer in this case, since that's what I went there to do), I read the whole page to see what has been commented on already. I got to the end and saw the link you placed. No context, no other information. I had to leave the FAC page to discover that this user was blocked for being a sock and that you performed actions that directly affect the article content and the progress of the FAC. That is information that is directly relevant to the FAC page and it should not be obscured by being moved to Talk. The longer comment you left, which you have objected to being separated, is really meta-commentary that FAC reviewers will not find relevant to the FAC. Make sense? The delegate made a decision based on what's good for the FAC page, and I agree with it. --Andy Walsh (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- From my perspective, Fram did exactly what we seek to avoid at FAC: prejudiced the outcome of a FAC by edit warring against delegate discretion. Unless the nom withdraws, perhaps a restart is in order? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Correct. If Fram had a problem with Bish's wording, he should have taken that up with her. At any rate, the more important point to me is that uninvolved admins not politicize and edit war on a FAC, rather discuss with delegates or at WT:FAC. Even more so when I'm in the midst of a historic storm and on dialup :) Had he brought it to WT:FAC, someone with FAC experience would have dealt with it, since most FA regulars follow my talk and know I was on dialup. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:39, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- When your aim is off, it is up to others to correct it. And when I am explicitly named and shamed in an edit, I am not an uninvolved admin anymore. Fram (talk) 21:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- What does make a difference is when outside, uninvolved admins interfere with and politicize the business of FAC, which is to evaluate articles, and revert delegate decisions to that aim. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)
- Followup: reference this thread in archives. The featured article process on Wiki has a director (Raul654) and delegates who oversee the processes: this helps prevent it from degenerating into squabbles like those often seen at RFA or ANI. The goal is to allow articles a fair and thorough review, with focus on content, not nominators or reviewers or other external issues. Fram had issues with Bishonen's original post, but the way he raised those issues (edit warring with a FAC delegate, never raising his concern about Bish's wording until after he reached three reverts) prejudiced the FAC outcome. In the future, do not edit war with a delegate, and please discuss your concerns here on WT:FAC, or director/delegate pages (as those pages are watched by many editors familiar with these processes), so that action can be taken in a way that does not prejudice content review. There are numerous regulars who could have addressed this satisafactorily, even considering my connectivity limitations. FAC outcome is determined at FAC, based on knowledge of FAC and consistency in processes here-- not based on external issues. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:06, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Your summary is largely incorrect. First of all, it takes two to edit war, not one. I raised my concerns with Bish's wording in my very first reply to her post, the one you then removed to the talk page while letting hers stand. So it is completely untrue that I was "never raising his concern about Bish's wording until after he reached three reverts". I did not post anything further to the FAC page after you indicated that the discussion should continue at the talk page, I only completed the discussion there (since your edit started it "in media res", completely unintelligible for anyone not first noticing the start of the thread at the FAC page) and restored my reply to Bishonen (the one raising myconcerns, remember?). When that somehow turned out to be unacceptable (apparently that one post disrupted the whole FAC process and made it impossible to continue the FAc discussion afterwards), I tried to also get rid of the "politicizing" post by Bishonen and to replace it by a neutral, factual summary with a pointer to the complete, original discussion. For some reason, people preferred the over the top original post to the new one (with you insisting that I singed it, before (shudder) anyone mistook it for an official post. That you are a delegate was unknown to me. You just forced your preferred, unbalanced version through, never trying to see if anything more neutral may actually be better (the current, bolded off-topic rant by Bishonen is not really more constructive for the actual FAC process). You started claiming disruption (there was none), politicizing (how?), and 3RR (while you had more reverts than me), without actually trying to resolve the dispute in any way. The way you handled this is unbecoming of a delegate. My post and the ensuing edit war had nothing to do with FAC outcome, and your continued insistence on this is bizarre. I'll leave this well alone, but start to understand why a fair number of people won't have anyting to do with the rather dictatorial burocracy this has become. Ever heard of trying to collaborate instead of trying to impose your will as a delegate? Fram (talk) 09:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, so you weren't aware you were reverting a delegate, and I wasn't aware that your issue was with Bish's wording (perhaps if I hadn't been on dialup, I would have realized that, but Bish also mentioned she was headed out, so I wasn't focused on that). In general, edit warring a second time is not good: it's even less good when you're reverting a FAC delegate. Bringing the issue to FAC talk, as is expected in all disputes, is the norm. FAC has directors and delegates, and there are many experienced followers here who could have dealt with this more optimally. FAC is for content review: it is not the place to play out the kinds of squabbles that belong at ANI. You're entitled to whatever views of FAC you hold, but it remains one area of Wiki that works, partly because disruption is minimized so that content can remain the focus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:59, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- And how was I supposed to know that when someone is reverting me and removing my comment at a particular FAC page, I have to discuss this at WT:FAC? There is no edit notice, there was no communication indicating this. This is one of the typical aspects of your self-centered burocracy: you impose rules, and everyone is expected to know the rules and to know that you have the right to impose them when and where you like.Fram (talk) 13:33, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Good point about no notice anywhere: maybe something should be added to the Wheel War page (sorry, don't know link, still on dialup) indicating that FAC and FAR delegates shouldn't be reverted without discussing with them, just as with admin actions. Even though it's not about "admin tools", I can't think of any other place to call attention to this, if people coming to FAC don't read the FAC page instructions. Ideas? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:42, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Umm, no one should be rereverted without discussing it with them, as in the BRD cycle. There is no indication of your special do-not-revert status on the WP:FAC page (it mainly concerns your role in deciding the timing and outcome of a FAC discussion, which is totally different), so I would not support adding this to wheel war or any other similar page. I have now read the FAC page instructions, and I still don't see any indication of your interpretation of your role here. Fram (talk) 13:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- I would certainly want to see discussion of any proposed changes. The delegates have received the authority to coordinate FAC discussions and judge consensus in those discussions in the area of promotions or not of featured article candidates. The exact scope and powers have been left vague by the Director. In the absence of direction from Raul, it is for the community to decide customs and practices, and I'd like to see a discussion before we start calling reversing a delegate wheel warring. For one thing, wheel warring is a sin only admins can commit.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- I see several problems: 1) exactly what we seek to avoid at FAC happened (content review was disrupted by external issues); 2) Fram indicated he had no idea he was reverting a FAC delegate, and I don't know where we can spell that out; 3) any time anyone reverts the second time, they should take it to talk, which would have avoided this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- I still don't see where the content review was disrupted by having four posts (or one neutral summary) instead of three posts about one off-topic topic, or whether that you are a delegate would have made any difference, just like me being an admin should not make any difference. In general, when you try to (re)move someone's post, and he or she objects, you should not revert any further but come to the talk page of that editor and explain the problem you have with it. If limited accessibility (dialup and so on) prevents you from doing this, you should not act any further but let someone else with more technical possibilities handle it. When someone is (or feels) attacked by another post, and his reply/defense is removed (but the attack isn't), you can expect them to not be amused. Forcing the issue by edit warring, threatening with page protection, and issuing 3Rr warnings and "disruption" threads, is escalating things, not resolving them. To institutionalize this by making the "power" of the delegates explicit is not the right way forward. On the contrary, delegates (and every "official" of every project that has one or more such) should be aware that regular editing practices and dispute resolution applies to them just as much as to anyone else. Fram (talk) 14:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- I see several problems: 1) exactly what we seek to avoid at FAC happened (content review was disrupted by external issues); 2) Fram indicated he had no idea he was reverting a FAC delegate, and I don't know where we can spell that out; 3) any time anyone reverts the second time, they should take it to talk, which would have avoided this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Good point about no notice anywhere: maybe something should be added to the Wheel War page (sorry, don't know link, still on dialup) indicating that FAC and FAR delegates shouldn't be reverted without discussing with them, just as with admin actions. Even though it's not about "admin tools", I can't think of any other place to call attention to this, if people coming to FAC don't read the FAC page instructions. Ideas? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:42, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- And how was I supposed to know that when someone is reverting me and removing my comment at a particular FAC page, I have to discuss this at WT:FAC? There is no edit notice, there was no communication indicating this. This is one of the typical aspects of your self-centered burocracy: you impose rules, and everyone is expected to know the rules and to know that you have the right to impose them when and where you like.Fram (talk) 13:33, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, so you weren't aware you were reverting a delegate, and I wasn't aware that your issue was with Bish's wording (perhaps if I hadn't been on dialup, I would have realized that, but Bish also mentioned she was headed out, so I wasn't focused on that). In general, edit warring a second time is not good: it's even less good when you're reverting a FAC delegate. Bringing the issue to FAC talk, as is expected in all disputes, is the norm. FAC has directors and delegates, and there are many experienced followers here who could have dealt with this more optimally. FAC is for content review: it is not the place to play out the kinds of squabbles that belong at ANI. You're entitled to whatever views of FAC you hold, but it remains one area of Wiki that works, partly because disruption is minimized so that content can remain the focus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:59, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
- Your summary is largely incorrect. First of all, it takes two to edit war, not one. I raised my concerns with Bish's wording in my very first reply to her post, the one you then removed to the talk page while letting hers stand. So it is completely untrue that I was "never raising his concern about Bish's wording until after he reached three reverts". I did not post anything further to the FAC page after you indicated that the discussion should continue at the talk page, I only completed the discussion there (since your edit started it "in media res", completely unintelligible for anyone not first noticing the start of the thread at the FAC page) and restored my reply to Bishonen (the one raising myconcerns, remember?). When that somehow turned out to be unacceptable (apparently that one post disrupted the whole FAC process and made it impossible to continue the FAc discussion afterwards), I tried to also get rid of the "politicizing" post by Bishonen and to replace it by a neutral, factual summary with a pointer to the complete, original discussion. For some reason, people preferred the over the top original post to the new one (with you insisting that I singed it, before (shudder) anyone mistook it for an official post. That you are a delegate was unknown to me. You just forced your preferred, unbalanced version through, never trying to see if anything more neutral may actually be better (the current, bolded off-topic rant by Bishonen is not really more constructive for the actual FAC process). You started claiming disruption (there was none), politicizing (how?), and 3RR (while you had more reverts than me), without actually trying to resolve the dispute in any way. The way you handled this is unbecoming of a delegate. My post and the ensuing edit war had nothing to do with FAC outcome, and your continued insistence on this is bizarre. I'll leave this well alone, but start to understand why a fair number of people won't have anyting to do with the rather dictatorial burocracy this has become. Ever heard of trying to collaborate instead of trying to impose your will as a delegate? Fram (talk) 09:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)
While all the drama of late was initially amusing, it grows tiresome. It may take two to edit war, but it only takes one to take some initiative, act maturely and attempt to discuss the matter - especially for those experienced enough to be admins or delegates. The perception, real or imagined, that others are misbehaving is no excuse to behave in kind. I see little need for the bureaucracy of delineating delegate authority; what happened here is a mere failure of good sense. Let's desist with the bickering and focus on more important matters, shall we? Эlcobbola talk 14:35, 16 March 2010 (UTC)