FACs needing feedback view • | |
---|---|
2023 World Snooker Championship | Review it now |
Tornado outbreak of February 12, 1945 | Review it now |
1 2
3 4
5 6
7 (April Fools 2005)
8 9
10 11
12 13
14 15
16 17
18 19
20 |
This page has archives. Sections older than 14 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III. |
Image/source check requests
FAC mentoring: first-time nominators
A voluntary mentoring scheme, designed to help first-time FAC nominators through the process and to improve their chances of a successful outcome, is now in action. Click here for further details. Experienced FAC editors, with five or more "stars" behind them, are invited to consider adding their names to the list of possible mentors, also found in the link. Brianboulton (talk) 10:17, 30 August 2016 (UTC)
Little wonder that reviewers seem reluctant to oppose
It seems as if opposing an FAC nomination is fast becoming a no-go area, which can be of little benefit to the project. Is it the general consensus now that calling an article an uncomfortable read is unacceptably rude? Eric Corbett 09:03, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- I have a hard time deciding whether it is more odd to be offended by having one's article called "an uncomfortable read" or to make a surprised post at FAC when a nominator reacts defensively to criticism.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:08, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- I don't find that rude, personally. But, as you know, wikipedians differ as to what they do and don't consider acceptable levels of civility. DrKay (talk) 15:23, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Eric Corbett: If you are going to talk about me, then it would be nice if you could at least ping. I took issue with the "an uncomfortable read" statement, and I would have just preferred that you just opposed it on prose. I did not take issue with an oppose and did not say so in the FAC so this discussion is not entirely correct. Either way, I am done with the FAC process and Wikipedia as a whole so you have little to worry about now. It would have been preferable in my opinion if you contact me on my talk page. I agree that I took the criticism too personally and I should have just stepped back ad requested that the FAC be archived from the start. I have to agree with Maunus on his point (i.e. "to make a surprised post at FAC when a nominator reacts defensively to criticism"). Aoba47 (talk) 16:35, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not talking about you, I merely posed a question prompted by your reaction to a comment I made about your prose. If it hurt your feelings, then as far as I'm concerned that's just tough. My real concern though is not with you, but that reactions such as yours are gnawing away at the credibility of FAC, which seems to be well on the path to becoming little more than a rubber-stamping operation, with too few reviewers prepared to tell it like it is for fear of upsetting the delicate little snowdrops. Eric Corbett 16:54, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- You shouldn't take it that hard, it's just the usual sniping Eric is known and loved for. Anyhow, another content creator down, we're sure getting somewhere. FunkMonk (talk) 16:50, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for demonstrating my point, albeit inadvertently. Why not just outlaw all critical comments? Eric Corbett 16:54, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- Funny you should ask, I think I made a similar observation once.[1] FunkMonk (talk) 17:01, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- I no longer have an issue with your comment. I overreacted to your comment and the article is not prepared for FAC, simple as that. As for the standards for the FAC, I am not entirely sure how far that this discussion will go as this particular issue has come up multiple times in the past. Hopefully, it will be resolved one day in the future; maybe something like a committee of FAC reviewers will need to created to ensure some sort of "standard" for reviewing and strictness when it comes to the FAC criteria. Either way, I guess this "delicate little snowdrop" will leave this to the more "real" contributor and reviewers. Good luck! Aoba47 (talk) 17:16, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- Well, my point with the link above was that it's pretty laughable that a guy who is well-known for overreacting towards criticism has the gall to call someone else "snowdrop" for overreacting to criticism. The only difference is that you become hurt, while he just becomes obnoxious. And yes, that drives reviewers away and makes them feel like criticism isn't allowed, just like Eric is somehow complaining about here. FunkMonk (talk) 11:33, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Are you not criticising me here? Have I become obnoxious? Eric Corbett 11:40, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- I am saying that it is funny that you should create an entire section about something you are quite guilty of yourself. That of course doesn't make the general point invalid, the problem is when it drives away an editor because useless snark like "snowdrop" absolutely has to be part of it. That's what I would call "unnecessarily personalising", as you so innocently put it in the edit summary. FunkMonk (talk) 11:48, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Are you not criticising me here? Have I become obnoxious? Eric Corbett 11:40, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Well, my point with the link above was that it's pretty laughable that a guy who is well-known for overreacting towards criticism has the gall to call someone else "snowdrop" for overreacting to criticism. The only difference is that you become hurt, while he just becomes obnoxious. And yes, that drives reviewers away and makes them feel like criticism isn't allowed, just like Eric is somehow complaining about here. FunkMonk (talk) 11:33, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Funny you should ask, I think I made a similar observation once.[1] FunkMonk (talk) 17:01, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for demonstrating my point, albeit inadvertently. Why not just outlaw all critical comments? Eric Corbett 16:54, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- Basically I agree with Eric and have left a few comments at the FAC and made a few edits to the article to demonstrate the issues. It is difficult to oppose; that's a fact these days. Victoriaearle (tk) 17:40, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- Eric's comment was very mild and it was fair. Just before he commented, I had considered opposing, because the article is not well written. But I know from past experience that Aoba47 takes even mild criticism personally, so I decided not to say anything. I thank Aoba47 for acknowledging that the nomination was unprepared. SarahSV (talk) 18:10, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- @SlimVirgin: Thank you for the comment. I acknowledge that I took the response too personally. On that note, I would request that you please turn attention away from my FAC/response and towards the more general discussion on the nature of opposing in FACs. I feel at this point bringing up my behavior is beating a dead horse. I would just like to leave Wikipedia with some sense of peace at least. Aoba47 (talk) 18:15, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- Eric's comment was very mild and it was fair. Just before he commented, I had considered opposing, because the article is not well written. But I know from past experience that Aoba47 takes even mild criticism personally, so I decided not to say anything. I thank Aoba47 for acknowledging that the nomination was unprepared. SarahSV (talk) 18:10, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
Iridescent raised the issue of how difficult it is to write these character articles when there isn't much to say about them. The articles end up being stuffed with PR comments about the actor, film, game, director's opinion, casting, and who else was nearly cast. The writing is almost always a problem, but if you fix it, then people arrive to "support on prose", so you've helped to have a very bland article promoted. SarahSV (talk) 19:00, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- My first experience with featured articles was on FAR, where I made attempts at saves, but was met with sometimes blunt *but* constructive opposes. Was taken aback at first, but it was an invaluable learning process, and realised early the comments were intended to guide towards article improvement. Aoba, if you offer an article for review you have to expect positive as well as "room for improvement" feedback, and its the latter in the end that makes the page you are working on more the better. In particular I'd pay attention to the Iridescent/Sarah advice on bloating; a concise and short focused article is far preferable, to readers and reviewers, to something that is padded out with irrelevancies, repetition, [chart] stats, cross-pollinated cultural references etc. Ceoil (talk) 22:13, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- Well, Eric's comment "I think that you need to learn how to accept criticism gracefully. Admittedly though that's a rare skill here on WP,..." has made my week. Will you be offering classes, Eric? Johnbod (talk) 22:59, 20 April 2018 (UTC)
- If you've got something to say Johnbod then please do the best you can to try and spit it out, if possible without diverting attention from the topic of this discussion, although I realise that may be asking too much of you. In the meantime FA has lost another reviewer, but who cares about that? Eric Corbett 00:04, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- I can't decide whether to pop popcorn or take a nap. "Nonproductive". Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 00:10, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Eric I know you have tougher skin that to retire from FAC over this. Opposing is *hard* and as recent stats have shown, happens rarer than it should, so don't stop that. You have a lot of weight with us old timers here, yet bear in mind that sometimes new comers wont know you from Adam. Ceoil (talk) 00:32, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- FA hasn't been fit for purpose for some time now, at least partly due to the pressure on reviewers to "act nice", and only to complement the nominators on the fine pieces of work they've produced, without any regard for the actual quality of the work. And as we've seen even here there are too many editors who are blind to this problem, preferring instead to settle old scores. There's absolutely nothing I can do about any of that, and so reviewing has simply become a net negative from my perspective. And no doubt editors such as Johnbod and Funkmonk will consider my decision to be a win from their perspective anyway. So the die is cast. Eric Corbett 06:06, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- I don't for one minute think Johnbod was criticising you on substance. The recent stats put you top of the class in opposing, and thats respected in terms of maintaining standards. Its also clear that the delegates wish to see more of this rather than drawn out and tortured sentence by sentence FACs. To a certain extend we're trying to figure out the least disheartening (to the nominator) way to kill these off early. Ceoil (talk) 08:45, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- FA hasn't been fit for purpose for some time now, at least partly due to the pressure on reviewers to "act nice", and only to complement the nominators on the fine pieces of work they've produced, without any regard for the actual quality of the work. And as we've seen even here there are too many editors who are blind to this problem, preferring instead to settle old scores. There's absolutely nothing I can do about any of that, and so reviewing has simply become a net negative from my perspective. And no doubt editors such as Johnbod and Funkmonk will consider my decision to be a win from their perspective anyway. So the die is cast. Eric Corbett 06:06, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Eric I know you have tougher skin that to retire from FAC over this. Opposing is *hard* and as recent stats have shown, happens rarer than it should, so don't stop that. You have a lot of weight with us old timers here, yet bear in mind that sometimes new comers wont know you from Adam. Ceoil (talk) 00:32, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, I think there may be an easier short term fix to this issue than my reform proposal - what if we required that nominations should always be joint with at least two editors, one of whom must have a predetermine number of previous succesful FAs. That would mean that articles that simply are not FA material will not be nominated because the nominator wiull be uunable to find a conominator.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:54, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Maunus, yes, but on first read doesn't seem practice. And it opens the door to more quid pro quo, cronyism and political jousting (who here wouldn't want to be attached to eg Giano's next FAC), as well as raising barriers to entry. My idea state would be that if you saw an article that was far from standard, you could say oppose on criteria x,y,z, and to borrow from Tony1 and Eric's approach would give one or two examples, "as examples"(!) from the lead of endemic issues throughout the article (they usually are), rather than the current tooth and nail sentence by sentence battleground we currently have settled into on less prepared articles. Ceoil (talk) 10:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Well, cronyism perhaps, but that is also another word for "collaboration". And if someone wants to be a conom of someone's FA that would mean that it is probably a good FA, and there will still be a review to pass.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 11:40, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- collaboration vs cronyism can be measured in edit count and kb of readable text added to the article. The main issue for me is that it raises barriers to entry (you have to get to know people with clout) and is recipe for cabal. Ceoil (talk) 12:00, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- I think it raises the incentive for collaboration and lowers the incentive for conflict and antagonoism in the review process- I think that is pretty important at this juncture. The raised bar for entry will be countered by better retention of nominators and reviewers once the process becomes less antagonistic.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:15, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- My experience is that collaboration is the result of friendship rather than any prescribed goal agenda. Its ephemeral and cant be legislated for. I suspect you are viewing this from an idealist academic pov, rather then the practicalities of managing a bunch of hobbyists. Plus as somebody who con-nomned with Ottava "multiple" (to borrow his lexicon) times, there is no safety in numbers, and in fact can be a serious hindrance. Ceoil (talk) 12:32, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- I think it raises the incentive for collaboration and lowers the incentive for conflict and antagonoism in the review process- I think that is pretty important at this juncture. The raised bar for entry will be countered by better retention of nominators and reviewers once the process becomes less antagonistic.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 12:15, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- collaboration vs cronyism can be measured in edit count and kb of readable text added to the article. The main issue for me is that it raises barriers to entry (you have to get to know people with clout) and is recipe for cabal. Ceoil (talk) 12:00, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Well, cronyism perhaps, but that is also another word for "collaboration". And if someone wants to be a conom of someone's FA that would mean that it is probably a good FA, and there will still be a review to pass.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 11:40, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Maunus, yes, but on first read doesn't seem practice. And it opens the door to more quid pro quo, cronyism and political jousting (who here wouldn't want to be attached to eg Giano's next FAC), as well as raising barriers to entry. My idea state would be that if you saw an article that was far from standard, you could say oppose on criteria x,y,z, and to borrow from Tony1 and Eric's approach would give one or two examples, "as examples"(!) from the lead of endemic issues throughout the article (they usually are), rather than the current tooth and nail sentence by sentence battleground we currently have settled into on less prepared articles. Ceoil (talk) 10:57, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Actually, I think there may be an easier short term fix to this issue than my reform proposal - what if we required that nominations should always be joint with at least two editors, one of whom must have a predetermine number of previous succesful FAs. That would mean that articles that simply are not FA material will not be nominated because the nominator wiull be uunable to find a conominator.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 08:54, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
As per Sarah's post and what Iri wrote, articles about a character are marginal at best, and this thread should focus on that. Because it's hard to oppose, those of us who would, decide to pass. Then the FAC gets only positive reviews, the coords have no choice but to promote, and after year after year of that sort of thing the process degrades. Aoba received some useful comments; they have, however, requested a self-block, which is unfortunate. That's why I've stopped reviewing. Not directed or in reply to anyone, btw. Just saying' Victoriaearle (tk) 01:03, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- This is exactly the type of unfortunate situation that arises naturally and logically from the current FA review model and which my Peer review reform proposal is designed to avoid.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:00, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Replying to SarahSV's ping here as the indentation is already quite tangled;
helped to have a very bland article promoted
isn't necessarily a bad thing. Some topics are inherently boring but nonetheless important, and blandless isn't an issue if the topic is one on which you'd expect the article to be bland. (Unless you have an unusual level of interest in the economics of bulk brick shipments in 19th-century Buckinghamshire you'll find Brill Tramway mind-numbingly dull; it doesn't mean it's not a valid article. I'd hate anyone to think I in any way endorsed the "brilliant prose" nonsense it took us a decade to get removed from the FA criteria.) My problem with "fictional character" articles in general is that unless the character in question is either a major character in something with a significant impact in popular culture, or a character from something like Shakespeare where every line has been the subject of non-trivial discussion in multiple sources, there have often been only a few people who have written in depth about that character; as a consequence there isn't sufficient coverage for a mainstream opinion to emerge, and the articles end up giving undue weight to the opinions of the few people who have written at length about the character regardless of how fringe-y those opinions are. (To take the FAC at hand as an example, in the Narnia books the Handsome Prince marries the Beautiful Princess, who in turn gives birth to a Handsome Prince of their own. This is a completely generic trope of children's literature and European fairytales and—with the exception of Frozen, which intentionally subverts the convention to create a twist ending—one would be hard pressed to think of a piece of children's literature featuring a prince and princess in which the prince doesn't marry the princess and raise a family at the end. However, because one of the few academic papers to discuss this particular princess in detail claims that Lewis was intending to "imply heteronormative sexuality" we in turn end up repeating it, even though common sense tells us that this is obviously a crank opinion.) ‑ Iridescent 08:00, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Very quick fix, which is nothing new, but a return to the old. If a FAC doesn't have significant progress towards promotion within two weeks, it is archived with a note from the coordinators about what the nominator might work on before returning in two weeks or so. We aren't going to get opposes if the page is backlogged continually with four or five dozen FACs that are going nowhere. FAC is not where articles should be pulled through to promotion; it is where articles that are already mostly prepared are checked. Oppose early; oppose often. Coordinators, get the page moving again by having the guts to archive, as you are empowered. Reviewers, back the coordinators when they do so.
Holy moly, there are 37 FACs in the "Older" section! Why aren't these being archived? Considering Sarastro1's extended absences, would it be helpful if @Laser brain: were brought back as a Coordinator? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:21, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- I'd like to add Sandy's words to WP:FAC: "FAC is not where articles should be pulled through to promotion; it is where articles that are already mostly prepared are checked." SarahSV (talk) 18:49, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Agreeing with SandyGeorgia, more emphatically even: but this stands out grin the point of view of an experienced Wikipedia but an inexperienced FACker ;) the management thereof is possibly undermanned? This must be one of—if not the only—high profile, front of house address of the project which had only two mainstays behind it (and one of which, to quote Laser brain above, takes "regular breaks of a week or more"— which is fair enough of course, but the problem is, the candidature and reviews don't!). More leadership, would, I think, see an immediate concomitant reflection in reviewing. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 18:54, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- I agree. Does Laser brain have any interest in becoming a coordinator again, or is Ealdgyth interested in swapping her TFA role to become a coordinator? SarahSV (talk) 19:48, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- While I agree that Ian should have more assistance (I will say that Sarastro1 is an excellent co-ord, despite the absences, but RL gets in the way for many of us), I don't have a problem with nominations running for a minimum of a month (which seems to be the norm), or even longer, as it's the standard of reviews that count, rather than the time spent in the queue.
- It does come down to the standard of articles being added to the queue, and there are too many nowadays that are not up to scratch on a prima facie reading, and that's one reason why the queue gets too long. I agree with Sandy and Sarah's comments about FAC not being the place to 'pull articles through', but for me this goes back to the poor functioning of the PR process, which is where many of the more basic flaws should be picked up, but are not. I have to agree with Eric too, that opposing seems to be taken too personally, and therefore there are many (probably including me) who don't oppose when they know there is a problem, but skip doing a review instead. - SchroCat (talk) 21:26, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- I agree. Does Laser brain have any interest in becoming a coordinator again, or is Ealdgyth interested in swapping her TFA role to become a coordinator? SarahSV (talk) 19:48, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Agreeing with SandyGeorgia, more emphatically even: but this stands out grin the point of view of an experienced Wikipedia but an inexperienced FACker ;) the management thereof is possibly undermanned? This must be one of—if not the only—high profile, front of house address of the project which had only two mainstays behind it (and one of which, to quote Laser brain above, takes "regular breaks of a week or more"— which is fair enough of course, but the problem is, the candidature and reviews don't!). More leadership, would, I think, see an immediate concomitant reflection in reviewing. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 18:54, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- Back to the original point about opposing, it's something I'm generally loathe to do unless I think there are more issues than can be addressed at FAC but where an oppose is necessary, it would be helpful for experienced reviewers to back up the initial opposer to take some of the pressure off, because being the sole opposer amid a wave of support, with the nominator badgering you, can feel quite lonely. This might encourage people to oppose earlier and might lead to under-prepared nominations being archived earlier (though hopefully with constructive feedback to the nominator so they can bring the article back). I think the slowness of FAC in general is not so much down to an abundance of under-prepared nominations but a lack of fine-detail reviewing, which is understandable—offering detailed commentary and useful feedback on a large article can be a big time commitment so naturally people focus on what's interesting to them and what they have time for. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:30, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- I am always willing to take on suggestions for improvement of an article. I hope I don't come across as being adversarial to the reviewers. But comments need to be actionable, in the short term (ie correct it now) or long term (withdraw and resubmit). We do get reviewers whose objection is simply that they wouldn't have written the article that way, or who want another article to be submitted (for example) and whose comments must be disregarded. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 01:56, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
(←) Mark me down as very, very, very, very, very strongly agreeing with "...I don't have a problem with nominations running for a minimum of a month (which seems to be the norm), or even longer, as it's the standard of reviews that count, rather than the time spent in the queue" as per SchroCat, and with all due respect, just as strongly disagreeing with Sandy's very detrimental "two weeks" suggestion. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 23:15, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
- The implication is that articles are taking a month or longer to pass as problems are being worked out. My experience is that they take a month or longer because reviewers can't even be bothered to take a look at the articles. Archive them after two weeks and you'll see nearly every article get archived, many without a single prose review. Only 2 of my 24 FAs would've passed under a 2-week rule (or maybe not—they both passed at the 14-day mark), and it wasn't because of opposes or requests for fixes, but indifference—and the lack of reviews has only gotten worse in the three years since I abandoned FAC. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 02:08, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) As far as absences go, it's actually quite unusual for both Sarastro and myself to be busy in RL at the same time, and we've both been doing reviews to help push things, meaning we've had to recuse from closing some noms -- so I don't think this is an ongoing issue. That said, Andy has had a standing invitation since his departure to return to the work if he wishes, and Ealdgyth would be more than welcome if she and the other TFA coords want to work something out. It's good -- if at the same time sad -- to hear people's honesty about not reviewing articles that they fear will not be up to scratch, but unless people are prepared to do that we will just have noms withering on the vine, which doesn't do anyone any good in the long run. Sure we can archive noms that have attracted little interest, but with no feedback positive or negative to work on, the nominee will probably be back and the same issues will remain. In fact part of the FAC instructions are that the coords should grant a waiver from the two-week waiting period when noms have had little or no commentary, so these perhaps-premature noms can be back in circulation even quicker. I always try to check new noms for procedural correctness, e.g. the nominator doesn't have another solo nom in the queue, or the nominator is a main editor, and if those criteria ar not met then it goes; but we all need to do our bit about checking if a nom is premature and recommending withdrawal on the basis of obviously poor referencing or other concerns -- I make a point of searching the queue for "withdraw" every couple of days specifically to catch these recommendations, as well as nominators seeking early closure, so pls make use of it. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:20, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- (2 x ec) Curly Turkey, you could be right, but I wonder whether reviewers would turn up if things were a little snappier. I often think "that'll be open for ages yet", when I look at an FAC, then I forget to go back to it. SarahSV (talk) 02:22, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Sandy's "return to the old" wasn't about them actually passing within 2 weeks, but: "If a FAC doesn't have significant progress towards promotion within two weeks, it is archived" (my bold) - even in the Golden Age (TM) many took over a month to pass, as I recall. Johnbod (talk) 02:55, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- SarahSV, Johnbod: I can say that I always brought articles that I thought were ready to FAC, and I very rarely got opposes of any kind. The first of my FACs I randomly clicked into shows 11 days before the first comment. My last FAC sat there for 32 days and garnered a single driveby look at the prose before being archived.
- The same thing typically happened to articles I reviewed. It always bothered me that certain "names" got an excess of reviews, while it seemed most others languished, so I focused on reviewing non-"names". I contributed probably a review a week, but far too often, mine'd be the only one—and sure enough, a month later, the FAC would get archived, and as often as not the nominator would be so discouraged that they never returned, and my own effort was wasted.
- An article being ignored to death says nothing about its quality or fitness for the gold star. Archiving an article when there are no open issues to deal with achieves what? Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 05:20, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for noticing, Johnbod :) Now don't stir up bad Catholic Church memories ... acrimonious months at a time x what, 5 of them? Not to mention my own name getting added to Samuel Johnson :/ Point is, usually FACs that are sitting there getting absolutely nothing is because reviewers won't engage because they see too much wrong, and don't want to get sucked in to the back-and-forth cycle that results when we don't get a FAC off the page with suggestions from the coords about what they'd like to see happen for it to come back. When a FAC is getting no feedback, a delegate/coordinator can almost always see why. Hawkeye, move it up to 30 or 40? How about move it down to 14, where it once was, to see how much the page is really lagging? The fastest route to promotion is archival, and I suggest that WP:FAS demonstrates that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:02, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- The core of the problem is: nobody but the coordinators knows how close or far an article is from being promoted. If I thought an article had no chance, I would ask for it to be withdrawn; but it would cost me two weeks. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:13, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Hawkeye, I've seen you say that a few times here recently, but don't really know what you mean. I can see that could be related to interminable time on the page, where it's no longer clear how decisions are made ... ?? I think/hope people knew that if there wasn't stuff happening on a FAC within two weeks, I'd close it, and if there was a lengthy oppose, I'd close it too, with a note to come back after a, b, or c was addressed. All FACs had a better chance if the page was moving and active. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:43, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- At least for me, as someone working on a few FACs during your tenure, that was always very clear. And my experience of it was, I was much (much) more worried about a lack of responses than opposes, even on contentious articles with socking and POV-pushing happening during FAC, because opposes were either not actionable (and thus ignorable) or it was something that could be fixed. Active coordinators that pushed the process along (and kept order when things got too far out of hand) were essential components there. I haven't been at FAC for a loong time now, and just going by the discussions here I am significantly worried about whether it's something I would want to expend the time and energy on. If reviewers are reluctant to make their opposition to a nom explicit then this process cannot work from a nominator's perspective. Say what you mean, and why, and give nominators a fighting chance. --Xover (talk) 07:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Hawkeye, I've seen you say that a few times here recently, but don't really know what you mean. I can see that could be related to interminable time on the page, where it's no longer clear how decisions are made ... ?? I think/hope people knew that if there wasn't stuff happening on a FAC within two weeks, I'd close it, and if there was a lengthy oppose, I'd close it too, with a note to come back after a, b, or c was addressed. All FACs had a better chance if the page was moving and active. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:43, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia: "usually ... reviewers won't engage because they see too much wrong ..."—can you back up "usually"? Because that conflicts with my experience. For instance, when I see an article that's clearly not up to snuff, I'd leave a comment saying it should be withdrawn—which (at least when I was active) seemed a common thing to do. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 06:20, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the full statement was ... "reviewers won't engage because they see too much wrong, and don't want to get sucked in to the back-and-forth cycle" ... with nominators who fix a few, you give a few more, they fix a few more, you give a few more ... and so it goes ... pulling them up to standard, when the oppose should have been backed by other reviewers and archived. It is not hard to tell which nominators don't get the picture and go fix everything, rather only fix what the reviewer specified. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:43, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia: I'm not disputing that happens, I'm disputing your assertion that that's "usually" what happens. My own experience as a both a nom and a reviewer is thta it's not. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:03, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Concur with Curly, often it also seems that reviewers stay away from an article because they are unfamiliar or disinterested in the topic (or that's what I've seen some say once they've been approached to comment), and early archival of such cases would not benefit anyone. See for example the current nomination, SMS Braunschweig, it looks fine, is almost two months old, but has a single support (I'll begin a second review now to prevent it from being archived). In any case, stating one reason or the other as the "main" one is an oversimplification. FunkMonk (talk) 12:49, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia: I'm not disputing that happens, I'm disputing your assertion that that's "usually" what happens. My own experience as a both a nom and a reviewer is thta it's not. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 07:03, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, the full statement was ... "reviewers won't engage because they see too much wrong, and don't want to get sucked in to the back-and-forth cycle" ... with nominators who fix a few, you give a few more, they fix a few more, you give a few more ... and so it goes ... pulling them up to standard, when the oppose should have been backed by other reviewers and archived. It is not hard to tell which nominators don't get the picture and go fix everything, rather only fix what the reviewer specified. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:43, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- The core of the problem is: nobody but the coordinators knows how close or far an article is from being promoted. If I thought an article had no chance, I would ask for it to be withdrawn; but it would cost me two weeks. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:13, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for noticing, Johnbod :) Now don't stir up bad Catholic Church memories ... acrimonious months at a time x what, 5 of them? Not to mention my own name getting added to Samuel Johnson :/ Point is, usually FACs that are sitting there getting absolutely nothing is because reviewers won't engage because they see too much wrong, and don't want to get sucked in to the back-and-forth cycle that results when we don't get a FAC off the page with suggestions from the coords about what they'd like to see happen for it to come back. When a FAC is getting no feedback, a delegate/coordinator can almost always see why. Hawkeye, move it up to 30 or 40? How about move it down to 14, where it once was, to see how much the page is really lagging? The fastest route to promotion is archival, and I suggest that WP:FAS demonstrates that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:02, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- I took a look at the article in question and soon found factual errors and inconsistency. As the review had closed, I updated the article. Aoba47 responded to the update within 3 minutes and so their threat of retirement seems to have been empty. Me, I get a lot of heat for daring to oppose at RfA. I contrast this with what happens in Arbcom elections where even the most successful candidates get hundreds of opposes. The difference is that those elections have a secret ballot and so it is safe for editors to oppose as there's no risk of retaliation. The FA process might have some similar element of confidentiality, like scholarly peer review but there are problems with that when the process is not open. What we mainly need to do is support robust reviewers like Eric while deprecating threats to retaliate or resign. And for an amusing perspective on this perennial issue, please see "In the Neolithic Age"... Andrew D. (talk) 07:50, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Just as a point of order, back when Arbcom votes were publicly logged there was no apparent shortage of opposers, while even high-profile people with a reputation as "insiders" or of having a clique of followers could attract significant opposition without any apparent fears of reprisals among the opposers. The introduction of secret ballots was the result of a somewhat questionable supervote by the closer as part of this RFC (73 in favour of publishing the names and votes of voters either during or after the election, 71 in favour of secret ballot), not by some kind of mass acclaim. ‑ Iridescent 08:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
One thing reviewers could try doing is providing vague criticism at first (which probably does happen, to some extent). My first nomination, John Glenn, did not really receive any review at all until very late in the FAC process, when it was not possible to fix the article in time. After seeing the FAC comments, running it through MilHist A-Class review, and reflecting on the article, I saw its shortcomings and why it was not eligible for FA. However, if someone had just made a couple of comments early on in the FAC like the Senate section does not include enough information and is disorganized, I used a source too many times in one section, etc, we may have been able to fix it on the first go, if I was alerted early enough in the process (honestly probably not, the issues were pretty severe). A bit of hyprocrocy from me too, since I do not do what I am asking; though I am trying to get an article through FAC before becoming a reviewer. Just a thought from an outsider that hopefully will be coming in soon. Kees08 (Talk) 08:10, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Kees, I think it's invaluable to engage as a reviewer before putting an article up at FAC. (Has there been any response from Laser brain? ) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:18, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- I am not sure how I could review to the FAC criteria if I cannot write articles to that standard. Kees08 (Talk) 19:41, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Sure you can! Some of the FACs that need opposes have non-reliable sources, content not backed by the cited source, obviously poor prose, MOS errors ... you can pick something you do know, and enter comments without Support of Oppose, and even that helps! See Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-04-07/Dispatches. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:05, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Sure, but that helps FAC more than it helps me, because I would be pointing out things that I know are wrong without necessarily learning what I do not know (I will give it a shot, after I finish up my open reviews elsewhere). I think maybe FAR and FARC might be the best methods of learning, but other than latching onto a frequent FACer, it can be a steep learning curve with not many places to do the learning. Does my point make any sense at all? I have articles piling up at A-Class, but the jump to FA is daunting because I do not have a firm grasp of what I do not know, FAC is not for improving articles, so there really is not a venue to get things to FAC. If people like me prepare better articles, people like you can spend less time reviewing because there are less mistakes to point out. Not sure if I am articulating my point well at all here. Kees08 (Talk) 20:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- I think I get your point Kees08. I had very similar concerns before submitting my first (and so far my only) FAC. It did go surprisingly well, but I still feel a bit uncertain about the process when I review, so I only review those aspects where I feel reasonably confident and stipulate as clearly as possible the limits of my review and eventual support (or otherwise, if it comes to that). If I may make a suggestion, try reviewing an article which you find interesting, but are not a subject matter expert, from the point of comprehensibility to an ordinary reader, and give feedback about what is not clear from the text. That can help get the prose sorted out and should improve the article's usefulness to the average reader, so whatever else happens, the article should be improved. You may well need to look up the occasional reference while doing this, and can then give feedback on whether the reference supports the text. From what I have seen, articles are usually improved at FAC, so though that may not be its purpose, it is usually its effect. I am not referring to content here, rather to intelligibility, flow and idiom. Cheers, · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 17:15, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Pbsouthwood: Funny you bring that up, a few hours before you did I actually preemptively followed your advice. I have done an image review of another article, and another review, so this makes three reviews for me since I first posted. I will also try to provide vague criticism on real bad articles, as I did once already as well. Bit hypocritical of me if I did not. Kees08 (Talk) 08:58, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- I think I get your point Kees08. I had very similar concerns before submitting my first (and so far my only) FAC. It did go surprisingly well, but I still feel a bit uncertain about the process when I review, so I only review those aspects where I feel reasonably confident and stipulate as clearly as possible the limits of my review and eventual support (or otherwise, if it comes to that). If I may make a suggestion, try reviewing an article which you find interesting, but are not a subject matter expert, from the point of comprehensibility to an ordinary reader, and give feedback about what is not clear from the text. That can help get the prose sorted out and should improve the article's usefulness to the average reader, so whatever else happens, the article should be improved. You may well need to look up the occasional reference while doing this, and can then give feedback on whether the reference supports the text. From what I have seen, articles are usually improved at FAC, so though that may not be its purpose, it is usually its effect. I am not referring to content here, rather to intelligibility, flow and idiom. Cheers, · · · Peter (Southwood) (talk): 17:15, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- Sure, but that helps FAC more than it helps me, because I would be pointing out things that I know are wrong without necessarily learning what I do not know (I will give it a shot, after I finish up my open reviews elsewhere). I think maybe FAR and FARC might be the best methods of learning, but other than latching onto a frequent FACer, it can be a steep learning curve with not many places to do the learning. Does my point make any sense at all? I have articles piling up at A-Class, but the jump to FA is daunting because I do not have a firm grasp of what I do not know, FAC is not for improving articles, so there really is not a venue to get things to FAC. If people like me prepare better articles, people like you can spend less time reviewing because there are less mistakes to point out. Not sure if I am articulating my point well at all here. Kees08 (Talk) 20:21, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Sure you can! Some of the FACs that need opposes have non-reliable sources, content not backed by the cited source, obviously poor prose, MOS errors ... you can pick something you do know, and enter comments without Support of Oppose, and even that helps! See Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2008-04-07/Dispatches. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:05, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, SlimVirgin, Ian Rose: I'm willing and happy to help out if my involvement would help the community. Effort management is definitely easier with more hands on deck! --Laser brain (talk) 16:20, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- Laser brain, that's excellent news. Thank you, and welcome back! SarahSV (talk) 18:22, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
- I am not sure how I could review to the FAC criteria if I cannot write articles to that standard. Kees08 (Talk) 19:41, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
UX Suggestion
The WP:FAC page is pretty overwhelming and cluttered. Maybe have some content or most content collapsed by default? It is hard to navigate as is. Has this been investigated already? Kees08 (Talk) 04:39, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Kees08: You should try adding nominations viewer to your vector.js. :-) Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 04:56, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, thank you. So that solves the problem for me; but for other newcomers to FAC who do not know that, the problem would still exist. Could be worth trying to implement a similar look on the page by default, without adding the js file? Some of the hesitance to that may be that we do not want to break the js script or other scripts, but in that argument, maybe you keep this page as a back-end page and have a different front-facing page. Kees08 (Talk) 05:00, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
- I've boldly added a link to Wikipedia:Nominations viewer in the header, at least as an interim solution (it should really be more visible regardless). I imagine that trying to implement it on this page by default would be pretty rough on mobile users, but then again this page is pretty long for scrolling through on a phone. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:05, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
- Just checked on my Android. In desktop view, the script functions as intended (as expected). In mobile view, the sections are initially collapsed. After opening a section, you can see the script does not work. You may have known all that already, but just in case someone reading this did not. Kees08 (Talk) 05:20, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
- I've boldly added a link to Wikipedia:Nominations viewer in the header, at least as an interim solution (it should really be more visible regardless). I imagine that trying to implement it on this page by default would be pretty rough on mobile users, but then again this page is pretty long for scrolling through on a phone. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 05:05, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, thank you. So that solves the problem for me; but for other newcomers to FAC who do not know that, the problem would still exist. Could be worth trying to implement a similar look on the page by default, without adding the js file? Some of the hesitance to that may be that we do not want to break the js script or other scripts, but in that argument, maybe you keep this page as a back-end page and have a different front-facing page. Kees08 (Talk) 05:00, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
I do not want to make a whole bunch of sections, but another thing that would make reviewing easier is knowing which ones do and do not need more reviewers. Some have enough reviewers, they are just going back and forth with the nominator. I would prefer to concentrate my efforts on articles that still require more reviewers. Just another thought from a newcomer at FAC. Kees08 (Talk) 11:11, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Image/source check requests suggestion
In the transcluded Image/source check requests box at the top of this page, I suggest that the bold text be changed. It currently looks like this:
Requests should only be posted here for FAC nominations that have attracted several reviews and declarations of support. Premature requests can be removed by any editor
.
I suggest it be changed to this:
Requests should only be posted here for FAC nominations that have attracted several reviews and declarations of support. Noting the nomination's number of confirmed supporters, and whether it has passed an image or source review, is suggested. Premature requests can be removed by any editor
.
I made changes to the two current requests (one of which I made) as examples. The purpose of this change is to give potential reviewers a better indication of whether the request is premature. Jackdude101 talk cont 17:05, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
- Seems superfluous. The current wording already states these things are required, the new wording only adds a layer of extra work for nominators (listing current supports). As for stating whether it already has an image or source review, this also goes without saying, that's what the section is for. If people request a source review, reviewers won't give it an image review. If you mean that finished requests should be crossed over, the wording could be clearer. This said, is there an actual problem this proposal attempts to fix? Do people frequently add requests there prematurely? FunkMonk (talk) 17:13, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
- I'm just brainstorming about ways to encourage reviewers to review things. By listing the number of supports in the request, it could make the idea of reviewing it more attractive. This is all based on a prior discussion where concerns were raised about making thoughtful reviews in nominations, only to see them fail and get archived due to not having enough supports. This is a very small change that I believe will have a big impact. Jackdude101 talk cont 21:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
- As has also been discussed before, I think the bigger problem is that reviewers rush to source and image review nominations long before they get any kind of prose review. Many nominations are archived after source and image reviews, which just makes it a waste of work. The reviewers can clearly see already that the nominations don't have any supports before doing those reviews, so I doubt it would make any difference to list number of supports in the request page. Rather, we would need wording that discourages people from source and image reviewing nominations without supports, if that's the outcome we want. FunkMonk (talk) 10:13, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- Ideally, source reviews should always precede content reviews/supports, since the latter will be valueless if the sources prove to be inadequate. I am minded of my experience with this, a few years ago – seven recorded supports before my sources review uncovered a multitude of problems leading to the article's archiving. When I said a few weeks back that I would not in future conduct sources reviews until a couple of supports had been registered, this was a pragmatic decision; at the time I was almost the only one doing source reviews and the workload was proving impossible (I have since taken a total rest from source reviewing but will resume soon). If sufficient editors will engage themselves with source reviewing, I'd argue strongly in favour of getting these reviews in early. Brianboulton (talk) 15:42, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- As has also been discussed before, I think the bigger problem is that reviewers rush to source and image review nominations long before they get any kind of prose review. Many nominations are archived after source and image reviews, which just makes it a waste of work. The reviewers can clearly see already that the nominations don't have any supports before doing those reviews, so I doubt it would make any difference to list number of supports in the request page. Rather, we would need wording that discourages people from source and image reviewing nominations without supports, if that's the outcome we want. FunkMonk (talk) 10:13, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- I'm just brainstorming about ways to encourage reviewers to review things. By listing the number of supports in the request, it could make the idea of reviewing it more attractive. This is all based on a prior discussion where concerns were raised about making thoughtful reviews in nominations, only to see them fail and get archived due to not having enough supports. This is a very small change that I believe will have a big impact. Jackdude101 talk cont 21:17, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Spot checks requested
- There is a detailed – extremely detailed, actually! – analysis of the sources used for Bengal Famine of 1943 in the "Reliability of sources" subsection of the current FAC page. As the FAC notes, I have on hand a very, very large percentage of all sources listed. Most of the few sources that I do not possess are books that are viewable through online preview (Google books, Amazon.com). So if anyone would like to do spot-checks on any sources, I would be immensely grateful. You could either label the effort as a bit of community service to Wikipedia, or if you like, as a way of nodding to the fact that I have been active on Wikipedia for over eight years (I took a break for a couple years), about two of which were spent working on this article (off and on).
- One good place to start would be Greenough's 1982 bookProsperity and Misery in Modern Bengal: The Famine of 1943–1944, Oxford University Press. It's currently cited 42 times in our WP article... I have that book in pdf format (three or four pdfs, all non-searchable, alas). To save you the trouble of having to hunt-n-search through the article to find all 42 references to that book, I would be extremely glad to create a text file that presents a list of snippets with the relevant cites, similar to this: "According to Greenough (1982) the Provincial Government of Bengal delayed its relief efforts primarily because they had no idea how to deal with a provincial rice market crippled by the interaction of man-made shocks {{sfn|Greenough |1982 |pp=127–28}}." I dunno what percentage of all those you'd need to check, but any help at all is of course gratefully received.
- But I could also send any journals etc. that you desired. Just ask on my talk page or via email. A million thanks in advance. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 03:41, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- What type of check do you mean exactly?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:29, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- You choose any source(s) that you wish to look at. I send you the source(s). If you wish, I can make a text file (as described above), especially if that source is cited more than a few times. You compare the source text on the cited page to Wikipedia text. Is it fair to cite that text and that page for the relevant Wikipedia text? If it's within a bundled cite, how much of the preceding text is covered by that cite? You make a note of all your findings in a (new) dedicated section of the FAC. That's all, from your end of the task... If you find some that are wrong, I will investigate to see where the error cam from. Tks. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 10:10, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, any requirements of sampling or sample size? There are 330ish references, so if I take 33 random citations and check if they seem to support the claim they are citing that would be helpful?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:15, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- I have no idea what people usually take as a yardstick for FAC, @Laser brain: or @Sarastro1: or @Ian Rose: might have an idea. While we're waiting for anyone to answer, ten percent is certainly a good start...Tks! Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 10:21, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- Yeah, I could probably do another 33. —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 10:42, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- I have no idea what people usually take as a yardstick for FAC, @Laser brain: or @Sarastro1: or @Ian Rose: might have an idea. While we're waiting for anyone to answer, ten percent is certainly a good start...Tks! Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 10:21, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, any requirements of sampling or sample size? There are 330ish references, so if I take 33 random citations and check if they seem to support the claim they are citing that would be helpful?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:15, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- You choose any source(s) that you wish to look at. I send you the source(s). If you wish, I can make a text file (as described above), especially if that source is cited more than a few times. You compare the source text on the cited page to Wikipedia text. Is it fair to cite that text and that page for the relevant Wikipedia text? If it's within a bundled cite, how much of the preceding text is covered by that cite? You make a note of all your findings in a (new) dedicated section of the FAC. That's all, from your end of the task... If you find some that are wrong, I will investigate to see where the error cam from. Tks. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 10:10, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- What type of check do you mean exactly?·maunus · snunɐɯ· 09:29, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
(←) @Serial Number 54129:@Maunus: Wow that's great, thanks. You choose them... bear in mind 1) Mr rnddude already did some, but 2) At least one reviewer has very much not withdrawn their Oppose on this point. Thanks! Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 12:03, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- Perhaps I should wait until maunus has finished their sweep—so as not to duplicate the work? —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 15:08, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- I think that given the circumstances it may in fact be preferable if you duplicate my work at least partly, just to ensure that we more or less reach the same conclusions. I intend to take every 10th reference, starting with the first.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:25, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- That's a good idea Maunus, it would be in keeping with the spirit of what we're trying to achieve. @Lingzhi: if it's OK, I'll probably take all the JSTOR articles. My reasons a) I have access, so don't need to bother you (unless there's any odd restrictions of course), and b) I've gone down with a rotten cold, so can't (read: wont!) get to a library for quite a few days; but of course the JSTOR stuff can be done from home. It is also likely to intersect with Maunus's reviews at some point. Cheers, —SerialNumber54129 paranoia /cheap sh*t room 10:39, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- I think that given the circumstances it may in fact be preferable if you duplicate my work at least partly, just to ensure that we more or less reach the same conclusions. I intend to take every 10th reference, starting with the first.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:25, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- Many multiple millions of thanks. Sorry you have a cold, SN 54129. If either of you needs a source, send me an email. Thanka!!! Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 10:58, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
FAC reviewing statistics for April
Here are the reviewer statistics for April.
# reviews done | Review type | |||
---|---|---|---|---|
Editor | Image | Source | Prose | Grand Total |
Brianboulton | 18 | 3 | 21 | |
Nikkimaria | 15 | 2 | 17 | |
Edwininlondon | 2 | 7 | 9 | |
Lingzhi | 7 | 7 | ||
Nick-D | 7 | 7 | ||
Tim riley | 7 | 7 | ||
Casliber | 1 | 5 | 6 | |
Aoba47 | 6 | 6 | ||
J Milburn | 2 | 4 | 6 | |
Sarastro1 | 5 | 5 | ||
Ceoil | 5 | 5 | ||
Hawkeye7 | 2 | 3 | 5 | |
Eric Corbett | 5 | 5 | ||
Jo-Jo Eumerus | 5 | 5 | ||
Red Phoenix | 2 | 2 | 4 | |
Wehwalt | 4 | 4 | ||
SlimVirgin | 1 | 3 | 4 | |
Jimfbleak | 4 | 4 | ||
Outriggr | 1 | 2 | 3 | |
Dank | 3 | 3 | ||
SchroCat | 3 | 3 | ||
Jackdude101 | 3 | 3 | ||
Numerounovedant | 3 | 3 | ||
Serial Number 54129 | 3 | 3 | ||
HJ Mitchell | 3 | 3 | ||
Dudley Miles | 3 | 3 | ||
Ian Rose | 1 | 2 | 3 | |
Epicgenius | 3 | 3 | ||
Ssven2 | 1 | 2 | 3 | |
Sturmvogel 66 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 3 |
Johnbod | 3 | 3 | ||
Factotem | 1 | 2 | 3 | |
EricEnfermero | 2 | 2 | ||
KJP1 | 1 | 1 | 2 | |
Mike Christie | 2 | 2 | ||
Ceranthor | 2 | 2 | ||
Iazyges | 2 | 2 | ||
Tintor2 | 2 | 2 | ||
FunkMonk | 2 | 2 | ||
Victoriaearle | 2 | 2 | ||
JennyOz | 2 | 2 | ||
Parsecboy | 2 | 2 | ||
Vami IV | 2 | 2 | ||
Yashthepunisher | 2 | 2 | ||
LittleJerry | 1 | 1 | 2 | |
Double sharp | 1 | 1 | ||
Richard Nevell | 1 | 1 | ||
Popcornduff | 1 | 1 | ||
Coemgenus | 1 | 1 | ||
Hchc2009 | 1 | 1 | ||
FrB.TG | 1 | 1 | ||
Homeostasis07 | 1 | 1 | ||
AustralianRupert | 1 | 1 | ||
Jens Lallensack | 1 | 1 | ||
Maunus | 1 | 1 | ||
Bilorv | 1 | 1 | ||
Midnightblueowl | 1 | 1 | ||
WereSpielChequers | 1 | 1 | ||
Indrian | 1 | 1 | ||
TheJoebro64 | 1 | 1 | ||
Moisejp | 1 | 1 | ||
L293D | 1 | 1 | ||
Mojo0306 | 1 | 1 | ||
ProtoDrake | 1 | 1 | ||
Mr rnddude | 1 | 1 | ||
Reywas92 | 1 | 1 | ||
MWright96 | 1 | 1 | ||
David Fuchs | 1 | 1 | ||
NearEMPTiness | 1 | 1 | ||
John | 1 | 1 | ||
CPA-5 | 1 | 1 | ||
Smerus | 1 | 1 | ||
Coal town guy | 1 | 1 | ||
Steve | 1 | 1 | ||
Galobtter | 1 | 1 | ||
The ed17 | 1 | 1 | ||
Ohnoitsjamie | 1 | 1 | ||
DePiep | 1 | 1 | ||
Janke | 1 | 1 | ||
Krish! | 1 | 1 | ||
GoneIn60 | 1 | 1 | ||
Peacemaker67 | 1 | 1 | ||
Display name 99 | 1 | 1 | ||
Lusotitan | 1 | 1 | ||
Acefitt | 1 | 1 | ||
Kailash29792 | 1 | 1 | ||
Grand Total | 28 | 41 | 167 | 236 |
There were 136 declarations of support or oppose: 120 supports, 9 unstruck opposes, 4 struck opposes, and 3 opposes that were converted to supports. An additional 99 reviewers did not make a declaration; 61 of these were image or source reviews. No articles were promoted with unstruck opposes. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:18, 10 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks for the details, Mike. It's good to see that source reviewing is being taken up by a wider spread of editors – 14 attempted at least one sources review in April. I hope this trend continues. My Guidance on source reviewing at FAC is still available to help would-be sources reviewers, though I note that since 29 April the page has had precisely 0 viewings! Brianboulton (talk) 10:06, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually that number is 15. I completed both a source and a prose review for Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Porlock Stone Circle/archive1 which was promoted in April, but it's credited in the table above only as a prose review. Factotem (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks -- I'll fix it in my database, and have updated the table above. I do this by eye so it's possible I've made other mistakes. At some point I plan to make the data generally available so others can check it easily. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:19, 11 May 2018 (UTC)
- Actually that number is 15. I completed both a source and a prose review for Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Porlock Stone Circle/archive1 which was promoted in April, but it's credited in the table above only as a prose review. Factotem (talk) 11:52, 11 May 2018 (UTC)