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I'm not an admin, so I can't restore [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rongorongo/archive2]], an archived botified FAC that was deleted by the nominator. I also need help from FAC regulars in stopping this trend of nominators bringing a FAC back within hours of it being archived. There are at least six steps involved in resolving this, and in this case, because the editor deleted an archived FAC, I can't solve it. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 05:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC) |
I'm not an admin, so I can't restore [[Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rongorongo/archive2]], an archived botified FAC that was deleted by the nominator. I also need help from FAC regulars in stopping this trend of nominators bringing a FAC back within hours of it being archived. There are at least six steps involved in resolving this, and in this case, because the editor deleted an archived FAC, I can't solve it. [[User:SandyGeorgia|Sandy<font color="green">Georgia</font>]] ([[User talk:SandyGeorgia|Talk]]) 05:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC) |
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:Sounds to me like an admission that you need the admin bit. There's an easy solution here ;) [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 06:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC) |
:Sounds to me like an admission that you need the admin bit. There's an easy solution here ;) [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 06:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC) |
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:Also, to repeat here what I said on my talk page - Sandy is my proxy. I expect her decisions to be treated just as if I had done them myself. And if someone went and immediately renominated an article after I had archived it (or worse, undone an archiving) I would be extremely irritated. [[User:Raul654|Raul654]] ([[User talk:Raul654|talk]]) 06:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC) |
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Video game question
I think I asked this question the last time Defense of the Ancients was at FAC, but I can't find the answer, and I'm still not clear. If this very short article is about a map that is part of the video game Warcraft III: The Frozen Throne (another short article), why does the map warrant a separate article and why isn't the content merged to the main video game article? Perhaps I'm missing something because I don't know video games? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:30, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it does warrant a separate article. Its Gamecruft. Its been AfDed twice and somehow survived. However the articles it was nominated with in the second one have all since be deleted and that second one was before the crackdown on cruft realyl started, so I wonder if it would survive a third one. Collectonian (talk) 23:05, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- OK. So considering today's brouhaha about the main page ... I'm reluctant to promote this until I hear more feedback. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think that's a reason which should hold much water here - FAC isn't a second shot at AFD. In general, I think that FAC should assume that all articles which are kept at AFD are sufficiently notable to be featured. As for the organizational issue, it's difficult to get a good sense of what the best structure is because the broader article is so weak. I suspect that ultimately there is a place for a subarticle on this map. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:41, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- Three AfDs (found one not listed in the box) does point the issues with stability. I also don't agree we should just presume notability is established if an article is brought here. If this is a sub-article, is it qualified to be an FA? Would we want a sub-article to be featured on the front of the site? Collectonian (talk) 23:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- I’ve always thought it odd that review criteria (GA and FA) have no consideration of WP:N when the other major content policies (WP:V, WP:OR, WP:NPOV) are front and center. Personally, these articles define the systematic bias at Wikipedia and have little, if anything, to contribute to an “legitimate” encyclopedia. That being said, however, we’re here to evaluate against the FA criteria. If those criteria don’t include WP:N, what can we do? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 23:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- The reason notability rarely comes up here is simple: FA has no extra notability requirements beyond general WP rules, and there already exists a process to determine whether an article is notable, under the deletion policy. People who think an article fails notability send it to AFD, and if it survives, it's not the place of FAC to reject that community judgment. If we wish to change the featured article criteria to require additional notability standards the place for that is WP:WIAFA. I forecast you would find it difficult to develop a consensus for that move. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- To be clear, I’m not necessarily proposing WP:N become a criterion and I’m certainly not proposing extra notability requirements. Notability is notability. FA is a place to identify concerns. In the absense of AfD(s), we don't necessarily have assurance that WP:N has been adequately scrutinized before arriving here. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 00:02, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- Not necessarily. If the article has never been PRODed or AfDed, that doesn't mean it has auotmatically been considred notable, only that no one has noticed it before. With the number of articles here, many slip under the radar until someone calls attention to it. Such articles shouldn't pass FA just because they haven't been noticed yet. Similarly, an article AfDed on seemingly a yearly basis obviously has some questionable notability. I think a year since its last AfD or having its notability questioned would not be a unreasonable note. In either case, as ЭLСОВВОLД has noted, the criteria do explicitly state several other policies and guidelines, so it would not be unreasonable and seems strangely absent that notability is not something to be questioned/considered as well. Collectonian (talk) 01:54, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- The difference between Defense of the Ancients and the example I posted below is that NPA personality theory had slid under the radar until it got to FAC, while DotA already survived three AfDs, so I think that answers the question for FAC purposes. But I'm still not following the video game jargon as to why it can't be merged to the main article and why it's a separate topic. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:01, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- The reason notability rarely comes up here is simple: FA has no extra notability requirements beyond general WP rules, and there already exists a process to determine whether an article is notable, under the deletion policy. People who think an article fails notability send it to AFD, and if it survives, it's not the place of FAC to reject that community judgment. If we wish to change the featured article criteria to require additional notability standards the place for that is WP:WIAFA. I forecast you would find it difficult to develop a consensus for that move. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- I’ve always thought it odd that review criteria (GA and FA) have no consideration of WP:N when the other major content policies (WP:V, WP:OR, WP:NPOV) are front and center. Personally, these articles define the systematic bias at Wikipedia and have little, if anything, to contribute to an “legitimate” encyclopedia. That being said, however, we’re here to evaluate against the FA criteria. If those criteria don’t include WP:N, what can we do? ЭLСОВВОLД talk 23:50, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- Three AfDs (found one not listed in the box) does point the issues with stability. I also don't agree we should just presume notability is established if an article is brought here. If this is a sub-article, is it qualified to be an FA? Would we want a sub-article to be featured on the front of the site? Collectonian (talk) 23:44, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Note: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/NPA personality theory (had a peer review, passed GA, got all the way to FAC before it encountered ... me). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
- To respond to notability questions: originally there were two DotA articles; one on the original gametype, and one on Allstars. The merge was completed because the game itself, in its original format, was just a custom map- no more notable than any other, and could be discussed under the Mods section of Warcraft III. DotA Allstars (which is what the article is primarily about) is notable. It has been featured in tournaments, the subject of a chart-topping song, and has become more popular than Counter-Strike- as this points out, DotA "is one of the most popular local area network games worldwide." The game has in turn inspired other variants. Is it a minor piece compared to some other topics? Hey, I'm not saying it isn't. But I think its notability has been clearly established. As for the main page snafu, I think that's more evidence of bias against video games than the other way around- I was opposed in my FAC for Halo 2 because "it was another video game." Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 00:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- Another thing: just because The Frozen Throne is currently a crap article doesn't mean throwing in DotA will make it any better. In any case, it bridges both the original game and its expansion, so placing it in one or the other is a bad organizational move as well. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 00:09, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
- To respond to notability questions: originally there were two DotA articles; one on the original gametype, and one on Allstars. The merge was completed because the game itself, in its original format, was just a custom map- no more notable than any other, and could be discussed under the Mods section of Warcraft III. DotA Allstars (which is what the article is primarily about) is notable. It has been featured in tournaments, the subject of a chart-topping song, and has become more popular than Counter-Strike- as this points out, DotA "is one of the most popular local area network games worldwide." The game has in turn inspired other variants. Is it a minor piece compared to some other topics? Hey, I'm not saying it isn't. But I think its notability has been clearly established. As for the main page snafu, I think that's more evidence of bias against video games than the other way around- I was opposed in my FAC for Halo 2 because "it was another video game." Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 00:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
(undent) I've been around a while, and many of you know me. I'm just now starting to become involved in FAC... and I know I will get killed for this (and peppered with <adjective deleted> links to WP:IDONTLIKEIT), but I think WP:WIAFA needs some method of weeding out trivial articles that have absolutely zero refs beyond internet shtuff. These are our best? I... OK... how do I write this without seeming elitist? I could slap these things together in a nice slow weekend, if my wife weren't watching ;-). Yet they have no fundamental grammatical flaws, the idea of using web refs on pop culturte is long-established, and who the heck can say if these articles are comprehensive? Whether or not an article is "comprehensive" is a profoundly arguable point [A scenario? from a video game? How much can you write on that?]... Ta da! Featured article... The idea of incorporating some changes to "...the featured article criteria to require additional notability standards" strikes me as long overdue. Ling.Nut (talk) 13:09, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- I quite agree. No FA should be less than 173 notable. Yomanganitalk 13:32, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Cool use of sarcasm. Thanks for helping me check whether or not I am able to comprehend various social layers of communication ;-) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.... it would be killed by turning it into a minor version of the old debates about the notability of schools. Yes. I know. But. Video game scenarios? I spent months and months working on... oh never mind. Ling.Nut (talk) 13:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- The problem really needs to be approached from a policy (WP:N) angle. Asking FAC to tackle notability questions seems, to me, an unreasonable extension of scope; although I think AfD is worthless, it exists and is the proper venue. I agree that it’s ridiculous that these articles make FA, but the failure is with WP:N, misinterpretation thereof and systematic bias. These articles are neither “worthy of notice” or “important” (double standard criterion for firms, groups, people, etc).
IfWhen they survive AfD, however, fairness requires they receive due process at FAC. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 14:35, 20 March 2008 (UTC)- Ah, the refreshing experience of finding a kindred soul... one of the many joys of being a Wikipedian. :-) So... umm... two classes of FAC then? <cue sarcastic reply by Yomangani> Or more likely, just extra stinginess with the star? ... I'm not ignoring your observation that the change should happen at WP:N; I just wanna talk about goals that reflect reality instead of stark staring fantasy. :-) Ling.Nut (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- I've used my quota for the day. I think you're on a hiding to nothing with this: we struggle to define a binary notability measure for use in AFD so trying to produce a graded one for FAC is highly unlikely to be successful. The fact is that some FAs are always going to be harder to produce than others, and some are always going to be of a higher standard than others, and often the harder to produce articles are going to be the better ones. I find it helps to look beyond the shiny star. Unless you are measuring your worth by how far up WP:WBFAN you are, the star doesn't mean hell of a lot. If the article was hard to research and had a tough time at FAC it is probably a better article as a result. Who cares if a lot of video gamers don't read it? Yomanganitalk 15:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Ah, the refreshing experience of finding a kindred soul... one of the many joys of being a Wikipedian. :-) So... umm... two classes of FAC then? <cue sarcastic reply by Yomangani> Or more likely, just extra stinginess with the star? ... I'm not ignoring your observation that the change should happen at WP:N; I just wanna talk about goals that reflect reality instead of stark staring fantasy. :-) Ling.Nut (talk) 14:42, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- The problem really needs to be approached from a policy (WP:N) angle. Asking FAC to tackle notability questions seems, to me, an unreasonable extension of scope; although I think AfD is worthless, it exists and is the proper venue. I agree that it’s ridiculous that these articles make FA, but the failure is with WP:N, misinterpretation thereof and systematic bias. These articles are neither “worthy of notice” or “important” (double standard criterion for firms, groups, people, etc).
- Cool use of sarcasm. Thanks for helping me check whether or not I am able to comprehend various social layers of communication ;-) Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know.... it would be killed by turning it into a minor version of the old debates about the notability of schools. Yes. I know. But. Video game scenarios? I spent months and months working on... oh never mind. Ling.Nut (talk) 13:40, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
Template:E no longer acceptable in FAs
The Template:E facilitates and makes consistent the formatting of scientific notation. About three weeks ago, after notice by at least two editors, the spacing of the multiplication sign in the rendering was changed to satisfy the requirements of MOS (spaced on both sides). Until then, FAs using the template were in breach of MOS and thus of FA Criterion 2.
User Knowledge Seeker, abetted by User SRleffler, has now reverted the template so that it produces a squashy format without the required spacing, for example:
μ0 4π×10−7 H/m
6.24150948×1018
1.60217653×10-19 ± 0.00000014×10-19 C
rather than
μ0 4π × 10−7 H/m
6.24150948 × 1018
1.60217653 × 10-19 ± 0.00000014 × 10-19 C
This was perpetrated despite a warning that MOS requires the space (with good reason, IMV, given WP's display on computer monitors rather than hard copy, and our generalist readership.
Unfortunately, this means that the template cannot now be used in FAs, and will need to be removed and replaced with manual type in all FACs. Tony (talk) 11:55, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the update, Tony; I wish we could get a monthly update of changes at FAC, as things keep slipping through that reviewers might not know about. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:20, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Only that the talk page shows that there is more than meets the eye. In either case, I don't see how having a template (which can be changed later if consensus dictates) can be a bad thing, as it creates a uniform appearance (the whole point of the MOS). Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- Not if it knowingly introduces a significant breach of MOS. And not if it makes scientific notation harder to read, especially for non-experts. In any case, nominators may wish to try another template, the {{delimitnum}}, which has several advantages, including the proper spacing of the ×. See MOSNUM Tony (talk) 02:19, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
- There is no such thing as a "significant breach" of MoS; it's a guideline. Any effort to impose this nonsense should be appealled to a wider audience. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:59, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
- Only that the talk page shows that there is more than meets the eye. In either case, I don't see how having a template (which can be changed later if consensus dictates) can be a bad thing, as it creates a uniform appearance (the whole point of the MOS). Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 18:28, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
- I have to agree with PMAnderson that this is an exceptionally poor reason to object to an FAC. The spaced scientific notation is odd looking to me so I prefer the change but it's just so incredibly unimportant that I really think it's an unproductive debate. A serious mathematician or scientist is, in my opinion, going to be extremely turned off to write a technical mathematical article and then meet such a ridiculous objection. Let's let this one slide until it is resolved on Template Talk. --JayHenry (talk) 00:46, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Since it's equally easy to fix, there would be no reason not to. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- But I think it's about where to fix it. In this case a template used on 1,000 pages has a different format than the Manual of Style. The place to resolve this issue is Template talk:E or WT:MOS. By dragging FAC into these MOS disputes I really feel that we alienate a large portion of the community, who aren't interested in getting into battles over such trivialities as placement of non-breaking spaces. --JayHenry (talk) 00:55, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Since it's equally easy to fix, there would be no reason not to. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly: fixing MOS breaches is easy compared with some of the other requirements for FACs, particularly prose and verification. Doing so is a useful activity that can engage contributors with the text in new ways. Anderson and Henry seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to any imposition of stylistic uniformity. It's their mantra that appears to be "incredibly unimportant". Tony (talk) 00:55, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- JayHenry, any "serious" mathematician or scientist should be used to dealing with far more stringent requirements when they publish a paper. I've learned in my professional life that some style guidelines can be ignored when it makes sense to do so - the ultimate purpose of any writing is to serve the audience. If the Wikipedia audience is best served by spacing or not spacing mathematical equations then that's what we should do. We're serving our audience, not our writers. That being said, any serious writing pursuit needs a style guide for that very same reason. --Laser brain (talk) 14:50, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
- True, JayHenry does almost always disagree with me. We concur that this is a point of such mind-blowing triviality that opposing FA for it is simply silly. We do not need to be, and will not be, consistent from one article to the next on points like this; it's incompatible with being a wiki. We do not need a style guide made of points like this; a discussion for what would actually be a useful one, which treats our contributors like adults, may be found at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Manual_of_Style. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:19, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
This is all an unfortunate misunderstanding. The MOS did not discuss exponential notation at all; it said, reasonably, that actual multiplication, as 4 × 4, must be spaced. There does not appear to be a consistent practice in the literature in spacing exponential notation (I have seen both myself) and there is considerable sentiment at Template talk:E against altering the template. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 02:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
- Manderson, most users disagree with everything you say, and JayHenry's point is thus not trivial. You might sit up and take note. What you don't hear are the cries of exasperation expressed in many quarters at your contrarian tactics, which people are too polite to pass on. It is those tactics that are counter to a healthy wiki process, not the creation of guidelines and rules for achieving consistency in style and formatting. Tony (talk) 03:23, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Cries of exasperation added. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Speaking of cries of exasperation, you have certainly heard from those who believe that your constant aspersions against other editors are contrary to a healthy wiki process, and yet you should no signs of committing to basic civility. PMA isn't making remarks about your agenda for totalitarianism or calling you Toni; it might be helpful for you to treat him with the same respect he shows you. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:57, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Village pump proposal to "lock" featured articles
See here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:16, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
Failed without explanation
The article was not promoted 19:48, 21 March 2008. by a bot without any explanation: Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flight 19/archive1 Why? (Can't fix it if I don't know what's broken.) Anynobody 08:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- Just a note that a bot does not promote or archive FACs; it only updates the talk page. This recent Signpost Dispatch gives helpful tips about how you might locate editors to provide more feedback on the article at peer review; peer review might be able to provide more information as to why the article was unable to garner support in almost two weeks at FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:40, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
If I understand correctly, the discussion was "archived" by a bot, on its page after you failed it here then? Anynobody 03:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Correct. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
With all due respect SandyGeorgia, that's not how this is supposed to work as I understand it based on prior experience with a FAC nomination and participation in the GAC process. I don't want to seem combative so I'll give you a chance to explain before I re-list the article. (Thank you Christopher Parham :) Anynobody 04:08, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- No, this is pretty much how it works. Sandy is one of those who makes the final decisions on this page. In this case, users had raised a number of problems and were not confident that they had been addressed: mainly referencing issues. Also, the article had not attracted any supporters; even without direct opposition, a lack of support may result in a nomination being failed. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry Any; I thought I had explained above. You can consider getting further feedback at peer review (I gave you a link with some tips for how to locate good reviewers at WP:PRV) and you can re-list it in a few weeks. I can see many deficiencies on a quick glance, but I can't provide a detailed review on all 50 articles listed and I'm confident you can get excellent feedback from the volunteers listed at WP:PRV. The FAC did not have consensus to promote after almost two weeks; that is, in fact, how FAC works. I'm sure you'll be in great shape next time, and you shouldn't consider an archived FAC as anything but a chance to come back stronger next time. Good luck ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, and anyone else interested, please don't take these as anything but serious good faith questions;
- 1) Wouldn't these editors have provided feedback while the article was listed? That is to say if I get feedback elsewhere and nobody comments one way or another here, what good will that have done?
- 2) Is this a vote? (if it is that's fine) The only opposition didn't participate in efforts to address his/her concerns, leaving open a possibility he/she just didn't like the article.
- 3) Why is a tepid response seen as reason to fail an article abiding by the listed prerequisites?
- 4) In response to your answers as to how FAC works, shouldn't it say so on WP:FAC rather than what it does say: If, after sufficient time, objections considered actionable by the director have not been resolved or consensus for promotion has not been reached,...? This ties into question number 2) in that if the objections were actionable why didn't "the director" step in and respond to unanswered questions posed regarding the objections? On consensus, given that I laid out point by point why the article fits couldn't the lack of response indicate that it does meet the criteria and people simply aren't interested in the topic?
- SandyGeorgia, and anyone else interested, please don't take these as anything but serious good faith questions;
- Rest assured I have no negative personal feelings on this matter, just an interest in understanding the logic behind what I'm being told. Anynobody 04:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- To address just one of your points, if you've received feedback elsewhere on an article (e.g. peer review), feel free to invite those people to contribute to the FAC. Christopher Parham (talk) 04:55, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Rest assured I have no negative personal feelings on this matter, just an interest in understanding the logic behind what I'm being told. Anynobody 04:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Responses
- 1) There is no time pressure at peer review, and editors who comment to help out at peer review aren't obligated to return to revisit Opposes as they are at FAC, so some reviewers are more willing to engage an article with issues in the more leisurely pace of peer review.
- 2) No, it's not a vote. There was no consensus to promote the article; I looked at it and saw the deficiencies, I archived. A peer review is recommended; a second FAC at this stage is not likely to generate a different outcome.
- 3) See 1. and 2.
- 4) The instructions do say that; there was not consensus to promote, and the article does not yet meet the criteria. FAC is not peer review and is not GAC and the "director" judges if there is consensus to promote or archive. Peer review is the best way of getting feedback to move the article forward so your next FAC will result in promotion. Good luck ! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Responses
- Christopher Parham if I understand you correctly anyone giving feedback (and thus satisfied by the time I've brought it back) would be able to support the article here too? I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable doing that, in a way it seems like authorized canvassing. (The point of this discussion process seems like it's meant to garner outside opinions, getting feedback from other editors actually brings them "inside".)
- SandyGeorgia, I appreciate and respect that you believe it would be in the article's best interest to be on peer review but your responses didn't answer my questions about why you think so. Sometimes I can be unclear and maybe they weren't phrased very well, so I'll be a bit more direct. 1) Getting consensus via peer review doesn't seem like it will ensure positive consensus here if arbitrary, unfulfillable oppose opinions are accepted as part of FAC discussions. Why is this incorrect? 2) It's my understanding that lack of participation in discussions indicates general apathy, essentially deferring to "the director"*, why is that incorrect? Question 3) was actually two in one, isn't consensus supposed to be for or against something and what if consensus was for an article that didn't meet FAC requirements? 4)I guess you interpret lack of discussion as consensus against the article fulfilling the requirements. (*I know "the director" means possibly several people, so shouldn't they be listed where "he" is discussed in order to avoid confusion?) Anynobody 06:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- No, I'm sorry but you don't seem to understand yet. Please read the WP:FAC instructions; perhaps others can better help you understand. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:36, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, I appreciate and respect that you believe it would be in the article's best interest to be on peer review but your responses didn't answer my questions about why you think so. Sometimes I can be unclear and maybe they weren't phrased very well, so I'll be a bit more direct. 1) Getting consensus via peer review doesn't seem like it will ensure positive consensus here if arbitrary, unfulfillable oppose opinions are accepted as part of FAC discussions. Why is this incorrect? 2) It's my understanding that lack of participation in discussions indicates general apathy, essentially deferring to "the director"*, why is that incorrect? Question 3) was actually two in one, isn't consensus supposed to be for or against something and what if consensus was for an article that didn't meet FAC requirements? 4)I guess you interpret lack of discussion as consensus against the article fulfilling the requirements. (*I know "the director" means possibly several people, so shouldn't they be listed where "he" is discussed in order to avoid confusion?) Anynobody 06:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
FAC instructions
For some reason, there was a discussion going on at the Village Pump about changing FAC instructions[1] that didn't involved FAC. I reverted the changes so we could discuss.[2] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:47, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
- And now here, too.[3] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Allright, since the discussion has started there, maybe we can keep it there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh, for gosh sakes, blocked user, wasted time. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:52, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- FWIW Even though this turned out be a blocked user it's probably worth noting that, believe it or not, discussions regarding changing almost any aspect of Wikipedia can occur at the Wikipedia:Village pump. As it says...This set of pages is used to discuss the technical issues, policies, and operations of Wikipedia, and is divided into five village pump sections In order to avoid being back-doored it could be a good idea adding Wikipedia:Village pump (policy), Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals) and Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous) to one's watchlist. Anynobody 05:07, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, blocked users and sockpuppets sometimes play around FAC; Archtransit, a sock of Dereks1x even had a featured article, Boeing 747. Anyway, changes to FAC instructions should be discussed at FAC, and at least that sock issue is ended now. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 06:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
The checkmarks are back
Since the graphical templates {{done}} and {{not done}} slow down page load times, I've created two alternatives that use Unicode symbols for the same effect:
- Done - {{done-t}}
- ✗ Not done - {{not done-t}}
I haven't created such an alternative for {{doing}} because I haven't found a suitable Unicode character. And yes, I know not all browser/OS configurations support Unicode, but I figure if it's good enough for article text, it's good enough for FAC pages. szyslak (t) 02:58, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- I read through 50 pages at a time several times a day, and I hate those checkmarks; they make the pages indecipherable to me, and I hope you'll take that into consideration. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well why create the alternative unicode if they damage the accessibility and look of the page (which I believe they do)? They should be proscribed; nothing wrong with a (bolded or italicised) done and not done, so maybe that solution should be explicitly included in the instructions ... Tony (talk) 03:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- And PS, if we were to ever allow those ugly checkmarks, for heaven's sake, make the colours less bright and make them SMALLER, please. Tony (talk) 03:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Done. (Sorry, couldn't resist.) I myself had second thoughts about the bright crayon red I used in {{not done-t}}. szyslak (t) 03:25, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- BTW: I used web-safe colors, for those who care about such things :) szyslak (t) 04:19, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- And PS, if we were to ever allow those ugly checkmarks, for heaven's sake, make the colours less bright and make them SMALLER, please. Tony (talk) 03:18, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Well why create the alternative unicode if they damage the accessibility and look of the page (which I believe they do)? They should be proscribed; nothing wrong with a (bolded or italicised) done and not done, so maybe that solution should be explicitly included in the instructions ... Tony (talk) 03:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- The other problem with them is that altering someone else's commentary is completely against talk page guidelines, and that's how they are always used. When people use them, they chop and interrupt a reviewer's comments, so they lose all coherence, and it becomes impossible for me to easily see who said what or where things stand (such that I have to step back through diffs to see if something is actually addressed according to the reviewer). You are not supposed to alter someone else's commentary per WP:TALK. Please, if it makes you feel good to check things off, think of the mess it leaves for me when I'm trying to read through and make sense of the FAC to determine consensus and if issues are addressed. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) I don't agree that these templates are always used to alter other peoples' commentary. Most uses I've seen are on a completely different line. A note along the lines of "Don't alter other users' comments per WP:TALK" should take care of that problem. So, now that the image loading problem has been "solved", I don't agree with proscribing checkmarks in the introduction page. We should keep instruction creep to a minimum, plus I don't see any reason to disallow them besides WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Aesthetic issues are almost always a matter of WP:ILIKEIT versus WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Anything that's design-related will draw some degree of criticism: the colors are too bright and not bright enough, it's unprofessional and too professional, etc. szyslak (t) 03:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- If you have the need to put a checkmark under someone else's comments, why not just type the word, "done", which accomplishes exactly the same thing and doesn't clutter up the entire page. Yes, I don't like it, because as soon as they start up again, people do start altering other people's comments, and then I have to sort it out. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:37, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Further, it takes four keystrokes to type the word done (which still has no meaning to me until the reviewer strikes), while it takes for example, 13 keystrokes to type { { t l | d o n e - t } }. I don't get it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- (ec) I don't agree that these templates are always used to alter other peoples' commentary. Most uses I've seen are on a completely different line. A note along the lines of "Don't alter other users' comments per WP:TALK" should take care of that problem. So, now that the image loading problem has been "solved", I don't agree with proscribing checkmarks in the introduction page. We should keep instruction creep to a minimum, plus I don't see any reason to disallow them besides WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Aesthetic issues are almost always a matter of WP:ILIKEIT versus WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Anything that's design-related will draw some degree of criticism: the colors are too bright and not bright enough, it's unprofessional and too professional, etc. szyslak (t) 03:33, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Passing comment: I don't use the check marks either, but you can't always rely on reviewers striking comments. As well as drive-by nominators, we have plenty of drive-by reviewers who make (often useful) comments, but apparently never come back to check whether their requirements were met. A check mark (or a simple note 'Done') is useful to the nominator, and I would have thought to the FAC director or deputy, in checking progress. Cheers. 4u1e (talk) 13:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Drive-by nominations
Should we include something in the intro about these so they can be withdrawn on sight, pending endorsement by a recent major contributor? --ROGER DAVIES talk 08:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- I'm in. Maybe also say that including a link to an endorsement would be helpful (but not required) if it isn't a self-nom? Ling.Nut (talk) 08:14, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- I agree it's growing, and becoming a nagging and very time-consuming issue, selfishly I'm unhappy about having to fail so many articles, but I'd not like to do anything precipitous. I have most reluctantly left a note for Yomangani that we may be seeing unintended consequences from the "Finding a subject" section of his funny User:Yomangan/A bastard's guide to writing a featured article. Maybe that's all it is? If we do decide something needs to be done, I'd hope it would only be after careful deliberation, to avoid unintended consequences (elitism, article ownership, and noms from experienced users aren't necessarily always any better, so ...). Each case is unique; I worry about instruction creep and too many rules. But it's certainly consuming a lot of my time, reviewer time, and Gimmebot time; worse, causing other articles to get insufficient review. Something to remedy the trend is in order. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 08:32, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
- Drive-by nom's have a place - especially on Wikipedia. One has to assume 'good faith'. Obviously it is aggravating if - as a result of a drive-by nom - no one responds to a review or suggestions. On the other hand, no one owns an article. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- When a Project is actively working on an article and there are clear statements on the talk page that MoS cleanup and copyediting is still needed, that's a pretty good indication the article shouldn't have been nommed by a relatively uninvolved editor. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Drive-by nom's have a place - especially on Wikipedia. One has to assume 'good faith'. Obviously it is aggravating if - as a result of a drive-by nom - no one responds to a review or suggestions. On the other hand, no one owns an article. Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 20:33, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Given that this happened with me for Gears of War, I wasn't aware there was a way to stop or withdraw a FAC. I think, if within instructions for an FAC that is put on the article's page, and in more depth here, if all that a major editor for a page needs to do is add in something on the FAC's page to "As a major editor, I wish to have this candidate withdraw", at which point a FA editor (SandyGeorgia, for example), could speedily close it after verifying that that editor is in fact a major editor to the page. You would expect major contributors to be watching the talk page and thus will see the FAC added on, and thus could quickly go add this. This still allows drive-by nominations (and I'm sure someone can list a successful drive-by FA), but a quick-out for articles where editors feel it is not appropriate. --MASEM 20:46, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Masem, see talk page precedent established here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- Since I've seen more of this recently I'll try and help out by noting if they are one of the major contributors, and if not notifying the top three or so editors if they want to proceed. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 21:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- I want to emphasize how delicate this is, and that each case is individual. When deciding whether to withdraw (which is an enormous amount of work), I look at the experience of the nominator, the nominator's edit history on the article and in general, the article talk page, the state of the article wrt WIAFA, the articlestats to determine if there is significantly principle editor, and many other factors. We must AGF and avoid elitism and "cabalism" (but we must also stem this trend). One of the first difficult FACs I was involved in was the Hillary Putnam FAC; it was grossly unprepared, the nominator put it up to make a point because of another article that had just failed, but he was able to bring it to featured status during the FAC, so decisions to withdraw must be taken carefully. I'm reluctant to codify instructions because of all the factors involved; maybe someone can propose wording that covers it without strapping us in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
- While we consider the wording below, would it make sense to move the existing withdrawal instructions to their own bullet? Their current position leaves them somewhat obscured by the surrounding text. This may not impact drive-bys (I'm slightly off topic here), but it may assist with the malformed withdrawals. Baby steps. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 18:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- Which existing withdrawal instructions are you referring to, Elcobbola? (Do you mean archiving?) I've got a simpler idea that I'll try to put words tonight. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:53, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- While we consider the wording below, would it make sense to move the existing withdrawal instructions to their own bullet? Their current position leaves them somewhat obscured by the surrounding text. This may not impact drive-bys (I'm slightly off topic here), but it may assist with the malformed withdrawals. Baby steps. ЭLСОВВОLД talk 18:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- I want to emphasize how delicate this is, and that each case is individual. When deciding whether to withdraw (which is an enormous amount of work), I look at the experience of the nominator, the nominator's edit history on the article and in general, the article talk page, the state of the article wrt WIAFA, the articlestats to determine if there is significantly principle editor, and many other factors. We must AGF and avoid elitism and "cabalism" (but we must also stem this trend). One of the first difficult FACs I was involved in was the Hillary Putnam FAC; it was grossly unprepared, the nominator put it up to make a point because of another article that had just failed, but he was able to bring it to featured status during the FAC, so decisions to withdraw must be taken carefully. I'm reluctant to codify instructions because of all the factors involved; maybe someone can propose wording that covers it without strapping us in. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:02, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Draft wording
Here's some draft text for bouncing around:
- "Nominators are expected to be familiar enough with the subject matter and sources to deal themselves with objections during the FAC process. In practice, this means that nominations will normally come from recent significant contributors. Nominations from uninvolved editors may be withdrawn." Reactions? --ROGER DAVIES talk 09:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Changing the system
If withdrawing articles is so fiddly, why not simply change the system to have three categories: promoted, archived and withdrawn? I'm sure that'll be a load less work in the long run. --ROGER DAVIES talk 09:30, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- As a further thought, this may well ease the burden of reviewers, as it will allow nominators the chance to withdraw articles which attract early opposition without having to hang around for the lingering death a week or so later. In short, no stigma withdrawal should be encouraged. --ROGER DAVIES talk 09:51, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good idea, may have helped in the recent EU thing. Although, in that case, frequent editors, myself included initially supported FAC, the process got bogged down by non-FAC related major changes from other frequent editors. Personally I think we should have withdrawn at that moment, to relieve you guys from the burden (which is too much anyway).
- I would go further and suggest that if frequent editors agree in any stage of the FAC process that promotion is unlikely they should be able to suggest withdrawal as a third option. Arnoutf (talk) 18:31, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- The delicate issue there, Arnoutf, is how we define frequent editors and how we preserve AGF. Some of the recent cases have been abundantly clear on every measure; not all will be so black and white and most are gray, so I'm concerned about how we codify any instructions. Look at the articlestats on the Sea otter nom (talk page precedent) that I linked somewhere in this discussion. When a significant and active editor has 400+ edits to the article, no one else has more than a few on the article, and the nominator has none, it's pretty clear the significantly principle editor can say it's not ready, withdraw; others are less clear ... we can't trigger FAC ownership edit wars. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- We have to consider the (significant) issues about keeping archives and articlehistory straight, that Gimmetrow and I put so much work into when we cleaned up all the articlehistories last year. The willy-nilly anyone withdrawing noms scenario is what I want to avoid, as it could get us back to the kind of mess Gimmetrow and I were dealing with in archives before article history and GimmeBot (see WP:FCDW/March 24, 2008). I've been working in the yard all day, so I'll weigh in later with more thoughts. I'm hoping we can start with a much simpler instruction and see if it does the job (that is, if we can discourage drive-bys to begin with, we won't have to worry so much about how to deal with them); I'm still really concerned about the AGF aspect, and I've got something sorta bouncing around in the back of my brain that I've got to put more thought to ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- Good point SandyGeorgia; frequent editors is a difficult thing. We could experiment with leaving the option open and see what happens (I think withdrawals will be reasonably rare).
- I would say that a withdrawal is a clear case of "not promoted", so no need to change article history. I think the main value would be to give the signal to the reviewers one of the editors is ok if the FAC is closed without promotion. Perhaps, as such it could be an indication of an editor involved in the article that (s)he is no longer actively engaged in trying to get a promotion (that information maybe of interest to the reviewers). I would not formalise "withdrawals", in any case not until we tried it out in practice. Arnoutf (talk) 19:36, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- One downside - which has been tangentially touched on - is the possibility of real nastiness. Most drive-by nom's are going to be AGF with a touch of naïveté. But, you are bound to trigger the bizarre vortex of the downward spiral to wiki-drama in some individuals. Obviously, this affects the wiki-experience of Raul654 and SandyGeorgia the most. Cheers!Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly what I'm worried about, Wassup :-) Not sure we want everyone/anyone to be able to withdraw noms, because the buck has to stop firmly with the FA director/delegate, so we don't have edit warrish nastiness. Just yesterday I got a nice note on my talk page from someone who thanked me for the withdrawal of an article nominated prematurely by a new editor in good faith (thank goodness I had cribbed Roger Davies' very nice message for talk page notification, it did the trick :-) Arnoutf, I'm tired from a long day of yardwork, and I'm not completely parsing your message ... can you try another wording (between "I think the ... and the reviewers)? Withdrawal with no objections does not figure in articlehistory as an article event, while a withdrawal after significant opposes does get archived and Gimmebotified to articlehistory. I handle the two differently. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry wasn't aware that you already distinguished between withdrawal and no promote. Sounds like you already thought it over in much more detail than me. Just ignore my comments if they don't make sense. Arnoutf (talk) 21:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- But ... I'm still not clear here. Are nominators unaware that they can withdraw ? OR that withdrawal is often a desired option? Are you saying, Arnoutf, that the EU editors would have withdrawn if they had known they could? Because I had to agonize over that one, and withdrawal sooner would have been excellent (I saw the talk page turmoil, but there was nothing on the FAC). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- Yes. Some nominators have no idea what is involved; they simply "vote" for an article on a topic they like. It is a matter of ignorance, and no amount of instructions will help, because these nominations come from people who could not be bothered to read the instructions that already exist. No recourse but triage. --Una Smith (talk) 19:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- But ... I'm still not clear here. Are nominators unaware that they can withdraw ? OR that withdrawal is often a desired option? Are you saying, Arnoutf, that the EU editors would have withdrawn if they had known they could? Because I had to agonize over that one, and withdrawal sooner would have been excellent (I saw the talk page turmoil, but there was nothing on the FAC). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:50, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- Sorry wasn't aware that you already distinguished between withdrawal and no promote. Sounds like you already thought it over in much more detail than me. Just ignore my comments if they don't make sense. Arnoutf (talk) 21:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- Exactly what I'm worried about, Wassup :-) Not sure we want everyone/anyone to be able to withdraw noms, because the buck has to stop firmly with the FA director/delegate, so we don't have edit warrish nastiness. Just yesterday I got a nice note on my talk page from someone who thanked me for the withdrawal of an article nominated prematurely by a new editor in good faith (thank goodness I had cribbed Roger Davies' very nice message for talk page notification, it did the trick :-) Arnoutf, I'm tired from a long day of yardwork, and I'm not completely parsing your message ... can you try another wording (between "I think the ... and the reviewers)? Withdrawal with no objections does not figure in articlehistory as an article event, while a withdrawal after significant opposes does get archived and Gimmebotified to articlehistory. I handle the two differently. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:09, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
- One downside - which has been tangentially touched on - is the possibility of real nastiness. Most drive-by nom's are going to be AGF with a touch of naïveté. But, you are bound to trigger the bizarre vortex of the downward spiral to wiki-drama in some individuals. Obviously, this affects the wiki-experience of Raul654 and SandyGeorgia the most. Cheers!Wassupwestcoast (talk) 19:48, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Second draft
Roger Davies proposed:
Nominators are expected to be familiar enough with the subject matter and sources to deal themselves with objections during the FAC process. In practice, this means that nominations will normally come from recent significant contributors. Nominations from uninvolved editors may be withdrawn.
I am not a wordsmith, but subject to help from others with the prose, I propose we intially try something milder like:
Nominators are expected to be familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal themselves with objections during the FAC process. If a nominator has not been a significant contributor to the article, and there are significantly principle editors according to articlestats, as a courtesy, the nominator should place a notice on the article talk page a week before submitting to FAC, inquiring whether regular editors consider the article ready for FAC.
Hopefully this prophylactic measure will work to stem the tide of premature noms; if not, I suggest we can add the other suggested wording about withdrawing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
- I prefer:
Nominators are expected to be familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal themselves with objections during the FAC process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination.
- It has potential :) How about firming up the first sentence and raising the bar slightly on the second, thus:
Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the FAC process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should ask the regular editors of the article whether they consider the article ready and wther they are prepared to deal with objections prior to nomination.
- Thoughts? --ROGER DAVIES talk
- Last sentence may read ambiguous. whether they are prepared to deal with objections prior to nomination - (might mean that objections need to be dealt with prior to nom; instead of making sure they are a priory prepared to deal with objections during FAC). DrKiernans version is short, that has many advantagous (people might actually read it ;-) Arnoutf (talk) 08:47, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- It has potential :) How about firming up the first sentence and raising the bar slightly on the second, thus:
- [Chuckle] How's about this? A combined version of mine and his:
Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the FAC process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination.
- Does that do it? --ROGER DAVIES talk 09:11, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- Whatever is decided, I want to keep the articlestats link, because that is the "hard data" that addresses AGF concerns. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:39, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- [Chuckle] How's about this? A combined version of mine and his:
Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the FAC process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination.
- works for me. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:43, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- Me too. I suggest that we add it, between the "Before nominating an article" and "Nominators are expected to respond positively" paragraphs, if we have no objections within 24 hours. Seem reasonable? --ROGER DAVIES talk 06:45, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:32, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
Article validation tested
In case you didn't see the Signpost article,I've copied this bit. Article flagging is being tested. An open beta of article validation is in progress, in English. Registered users can grant themselves one of two statuses: "Editor", which allows a user to flag a revision as being checked for vandalism and obvious nonsense, and "Reviewer", which allows a user to flag a revision as a "good" or "featured" article. When implemented, these statuses will likely be granted manually by administrators, but for the purposes of the test, any user can make themselves a "reviewer". Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 20:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Archive cutoff date
Automatic archiving has been running most of this month, and I think it's been going fine. The cutoff is currently set to 30 days; that is, a thread is only archived if it has been inactive for 30 days. Looking back up the page, I don't see any discussions that went inactive for more than ten or twelve days and then had further comments.
I suggest we change the cutoff to 21 days; I don't think this will remove any discussions that are at all likely to be continued. Mike Christie (talk) 13:46, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
- I didn't see any objections so I made this change. After we see the effect, if it seems it's archiving too much, it's easy to change back. Mike Christie (talk) 13:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Full-Protection during FAC
This article has been fully-protected during it's FAC due to disputes (and due to details involving his private life come out in the media). Should the FAC be speedy failed? What happens in these circumstances? D.M.N. (talk) 17:12, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- I would say it would fail since it is not stable as per the criteria, and no improvements can be made in such a state. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 19:51, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- What is the issue that was just revealed in the media? 1e is oft-abused at FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- A tabloid alleged that Mosley held a Nazi-themed sex orgy with several sex workers. No, I'm not kidding. --Laser brain (talk) 19:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- Oh. Oops. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:02, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- I say we just block those guys who are inserting it for disruption...Those German tabloids are basically just gossip rags and are usually libelous as far as F1 goes. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 00:56, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- That would be a British tabloid - News of the World. Peanut4 (talk) 01:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- A tabloid alleged that Mosley held a Nazi-themed sex orgy with several sex workers. No, I'm not kidding. --Laser brain (talk) 19:58, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
- What is the issue that was just revealed in the media? 1e is oft-abused at FAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:55, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Helpful wikignome editing
I was wondering (a) whether this was a worthwhile tip and if so (b) was it helpful putting it anywhere:
- If I am editing an article in its advanced stages before FAC or sometimes at Peer Review or GA, either as nominator and responding to issues raised, or as helpful reviewer, I find this is a good time to save after each small edit with extra care to detail the reasons for the edit in the edit summary (well, some of the time unless tired, hurried or whatever), to assist with clarifying and getting consensus on changes. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:32, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
April Fools, double checking
Three hours from the end of April Fools and archiving, I just want to double check :-) I'm pretty clear on this and this, but not so sure on this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:14, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Given the work being done on the article, I'm guessing the Tenacious D article is a serious nom. I sure hope so, reading all those websites was a pain! Ealdgyth - Talk 22:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure, since it's listed at LOCE? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- Could be, but at least it looked more serious than the other two. We'll see, I guess. (grins) Ealdgyth - Talk 22:53, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'd leave it running. After all, a LOCE review usually takes a while, so it wouldn't surprise me if the nominator forgot to remove it from there. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 04:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
- Not sure, since it's listed at LOCE? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:52, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Monthly update of substantive styleguide and policy changes
Sandy and others have requested regular updates of substantive changes to MOS (not just copy-editing). I hope I haven't left anything out that's substantive. Here's the whole-month diff.
March 2008
- Multiplication symbols. Inserted: Do not use an asterisk to represent multiplication between numbers in non-technical articles. The multiplication sign in exponential notation (2.1 × 108) may now be unspaced, depending on circumstances (2.1×108); previously, spacing was always required in exponential notation.
- Images. There were minor changes to the advice concerning the direction of the face or eyes in images, and concerning the size of images.
- Punctuation in quotations. "Punctuation" was added to the requirement that "Wherever reasonable, preserve the original style, spelling and punctuation".
- Em dashes. "Em dashes are normally unspaced" was strengthened to "should not be spaced".
- Instructional and presumptuous language. "Clearly" and "actually" were added to the list of words that are usually avoided in an encyclopedic register.
- '"Pull" and block quotes. Removed: Pull quotes are generally not appropriate in Wikipedia articles. Added: Block quotes can be enclosed using {{quotation}} or {{quote}} (as well as the existing specification, i.e., between a pair of <blockquote>...</blockquote> HTML tags).
- "See also" sections. It was clarified that links should be presented in a bulleted list, and that rather than grouping them by subject area, it is helpful to alphabetize them.
- As an alternative to striking out their "objection", reviewers may "cap off their resolved comments; the cap should include the reviewer's signature, and editors [not nominators] should cap only their own commentary.
- Added: "Nominators must be sufficiently familiar with the subject matter and sources to deal with objections during the FAC process. Nominators who are not significant contributors to the article should consult regular editors of the article prior to nomination."
- Criterion 8. The second clause was removed: "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic
, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." - Enforcement. Inserted: An image with a valid non-free-use rationale for some (but not all) articles it is used in will not be deleted. Instead, the image will be removed from the articles for which it lacks a non-free-use rationale.
TONY (talk) 03:58, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks Tony. This is a big help in keeping up with MoS changes and getting a better handle on how we should be writing. (Guyinblack25 talk 04:25, 5 April 2008 (UTC))
- I added a link to the Dispatches at the top of this page. Do people feel it would be helpful to set aside one weekly Dispatch per month to cover MoS and any other process changes? (For example, we added a line to the FAC instructions this month to try to lower driveby noms.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 04:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- I'm wondering if a quarterly update would be more useful than a monthly update? Tony, what would Jan, Feb, Mar look like? It could be published in the April 14 Dispatch. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:35, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- Quarterly would fine, IMO (as long as the list isn't horrendously long!). Awadewit (talk) 22:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, if it is done quarterly most of the changes from month one will have been changed back by month three, so the report should be quite short. Arf. Yomanganitalk 23:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe this would be a good time to drop in the question, on what style manuals (if any) or grammatical rules/regulations is the Manual of Style based on? I know plenty of people consider it a sort of dense and foggy sorta page... Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs (talk) 23:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- Good question: MOS and other style guides on WP typically take some account of other style guides (which are often inconsistent with each other), but form their own guidelines according to what suits this project best, with its unique readership, goals and mode. As far as the frequency of summary updates, I'm for monthly. If an issue flip-flops occasionally, that's fine, it will just appear in a subsequent summary as having gone back to the previous wording, probably with a note to that effect. What I'm wondering is whether I might not have a list of styleguides and policy pages to include in the summary, as well as MOS central. I surveyed a few other pages in preparing this one, but found nothing much worth including! TONY (talk) 05:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
- Quarterly would fine, IMO (as long as the list isn't horrendously long!). Awadewit (talk) 22:38, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
- A page has been established for users to notify substantive changes to styleguides and policy pages here. Monthly update summaries will be stored on a dedicated page here in chronological sequence, as a service to the community. The summaries will not rely on the notifications alone, but will involve a survey of the whole-month diffs for each of the major pages. TONY (talk) 06:21, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Beavis and Butt-head is a drive by nom
Use has never edited it. -Ravedave (talk) 04:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
- And there are warning and a WQA on the editor, so I removed it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Triple H FAC
I had no involvement in the FAC, but I suggest you guys see this. D.M.N. (talk) 19:51, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
"Self-nomination"
Obviously it isn't the article doing the nominating. So why in the world are so many of these applications characterized as "self-nominations"? Hasn't anybody here read Wikipedia:Ownership of articles? Gene Nygaard (talk) 05:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Writing "self-nomination" might no longer be necessary anyway as I believe that it has become the norm. –thedemonhog talk • edits 05:17, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- So why are these improper ownership claims condoned? Gene Nygaard (talk) 06:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- How is it an ownership claim, improper or otherwise? Self-nom indicates that the person nominating did a large amount of work on the article to bring it to FA level and that they aren't just some random person who went "oo, I love this topic so it should be an FA cause I love this topic." WP:OWN does not mean editors aren't acknowledge for having actually done work on an article. Beyond that, I don't see many self-nom indicators anymore either, as it is presumed to be the case and I believe the FAC is axed if the nominator is not one of the major article contributers (or if a major contributer objects to the nom), as as it is generally the the nominator who will be expected to fix any issues brought up. Collectonian (talk) 06:36, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Now we're getting somewhere. It isn't generally the attitude of the nominators I'm concerned about. It is the attitude of the FAC reviewers, and their pushing of this notion of ownership and responsibility onto the nominators. It isn't right. Gene Nygaard (talk) 11:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think its is an inadvertent 'ownership' issue. The practical problem is the nomination of articles that are doomed to fail. Perhaps that is what should happen but a FAC culture of 'article remediation' has taken hold. Good faith FAC reviewers point out flaws but are unable actually to fix the problem themselves without bootstrapping themselves on the topic. Supposedly, the contributing editors can easily fix the problem themselves. However, Gene Nygaard (talk · contribs) has a good point in that the Wikipedia ethos is against 'ownership': why can't any editor nominate.
I think SandyGeorgia (talk · contribs) dislikes drive-by noms because of the impractical number of them, which she finds very time-consuming to process. Therefore, the interest of the FAC reviewers - and directors - is being served here.Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 13:45, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think its is an inadvertent 'ownership' issue. The practical problem is the nomination of articles that are doomed to fail. Perhaps that is what should happen but a FAC culture of 'article remediation' has taken hold. Good faith FAC reviewers point out flaws but are unable actually to fix the problem themselves without bootstrapping themselves on the topic. Supposedly, the contributing editors can easily fix the problem themselves. However, Gene Nygaard (talk · contribs) has a good point in that the Wikipedia ethos is against 'ownership': why can't any editor nominate.
- The biggest flaw with drive-by nominations is that the nominator is often not familiar with the topic. SandyGeorgia has had to remove a lot of nominations because the major contributors, who are assumed to be very familiar with the content, say that there are comprehensiveness issues. This is sometimes hard for reviewers to spot, because we aren't usually that familiar with the topic either. Karanacs (talk) 14:31, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- There is also the issue that a non-involved editor who randomly sees an article they like and sticks it up at FAC may not be capable of addressing reviewers' concerns. They may not even be aware of the need to address them, in fact. Typically, they list the article and then never come back, leaving the comments and oppose !votes to stack up. FAC is supposed to be a collaborative process, with feedback and suggestions and compromises, but if non-involved editors nominate articles, there is a chance of little give-and-take. Self-nomination notes are usually followed by "I did this amount of work on the article and I'm looking forward to feedback" -- it's not ownership, it's assurance. Or at least that's how I look at it. María (habla conmigo) 15:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is an interesting conversation, but little of it is related to why or how the "self-nom" term came to be used at FAC. In the "olden days", editors rarely nominated articles they had worked on; it was traditional for another Wikipedian to put them up instead. Then, the nominator would also Support the article, since they were viewed as an independent, neutral voice, not having worked on the article. When self-noms became more common, it became necessary to know whether the nominator was an involved party or not, in terms of supporting the article, so the term came into use. (I'm not sure how Raul handled Support from significant contributors, but I look for a level of independent Support, aside from the principle contributors.) "Self-nom" is unrelated to the wording change proposed after issues like Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/archive26#Sea Otter and Wikipedia talk:FAC#Drive-by nominations, when several nominations were put up by new editors who had never edited the articles, without participating in the talk page or inquiring if the article was ready, and when significantly principle editors agreed the articles weren't ready. Another sitatuion occurred when User:Wassupwestcoast nominated The President (novel) in spite of extended talk page discussion about the work still needed on the article among several significantly principle editors (the article was not yet finished, had not been copyedited, had sourcing issues, needed a MoS check, and had several principle editors and an entire WikiProject who were still working on the article and discussing a FAC nomination). That premature nomination was withdrawn, re-submitted when work was finished, and a better prepared article is now succeeding at FAC. Yes, it takes me about twenty minutes to do all the edits and archiving and talk page messages to deal with withdrawing a nom, and it takes even more reviewer time to provide a peer review on an unprepared article, but the bigger objection is from the significantly principle editors who have the sources and know the work remaining, who are forced to jump through hoops before the article was ready at a time that may not be optimal for them. If a significantly principle editor agrees an article is not yet comprehensive, copyedited or well sourced, no one is best served by continuing the nomination. Wassupwestcoast asks, "why can't any editor nominate"? Any editor can nominate, there is no requirement that the nomination be from a principle editor (see Walter de Coventre), but when an article has significantly principle editors who agree the article wasn't ready, or when an editor new to Wiki has never edited the article or participated in talk and there are multiple significantly principle editors who agree the article isn't ready, continuing the nomination isn't productive. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- SandyGeorgia, I'm never going to live this down, am I? I was the one who both prematurely nominated and withdrew the nomination! Yup, I wasn't particularly involved on the article's talk page so was a bit oblivious. On the other hand, I wasn't a typical drive-by nom. I was and am still involved in the article. I was surprise to find that I was the sixth most frequent contributing editor. Nevertheless, I'm resigned to being the exemplar par excellence. Never again, will I nom an article :-) Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 15:47, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know if you're going to live it down; you brought it into the discussion by saying SandyGeorgia "dislikes drive-by noms because of the impractical number of them, which she finds very time-consuming to process". That wasn't exactly a spot on description of the situation. Time consuming or not, I'm here to make the process work the best it can for all involved (articles, nominators, reviewers), to yield as many examples of Wiki's best work as possible. I'm always open to better ways to make FAC work, but I did nix the strong wording originally proposed wrt driveby noms, specifically to discourage a culture of ownership. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks for the strike, Wassup; the gesture is appreciated. All the best, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- I don't know if you're going to live it down; you brought it into the discussion by saying SandyGeorgia "dislikes drive-by noms because of the impractical number of them, which she finds very time-consuming to process". That wasn't exactly a spot on description of the situation. Time consuming or not, I'm here to make the process work the best it can for all involved (articles, nominators, reviewers), to yield as many examples of Wiki's best work as possible. I'm always open to better ways to make FAC work, but I did nix the strong wording originally proposed wrt driveby noms, specifically to discourage a culture of ownership. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- I want to reinforce what Sandy is saying about the so-called drive-by nominations. The FAC process relies partly on the fostering of a healthy culture on the part of both nominators and reviewers. An accepted protocol—either written or unwritten or both—that minimises the nomination of premature candidates, is essential to make FAC work properly. So is the avoidance of drive-by reviewing, in which reviewers write simply "oppose" or "support" with no or little supporting text. I'm concerned when I see statements here such as:
It isn't generally the attitude of the nominators I'm concerned about. It is the attitude of the FAC reviewers, and their pushing of this notion of ownership and responsibility onto the nominators. It isn't right
It's the attitude of everyone that is at issue, and I hope that Gene isn't promoting an us-and-them mentality.
Furthermore, keeping the FAC list under control (it reached more than a hundred items not long ago) is essential to the psychology of all players here. I support Sandy's efforts to minimise inappropriate/premature nominations, which gum up the works, make reviewers feel that they're confronting a cascade in which they can barely make an impression, and generally lead to an unsatisfactory process. TONY (talk) 16:09, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Its not Gene who is promoting the "Us and Them" attitude: the idea of a "selfnomination" promotes that idea in my opinion. "Reviewers" and "nominators" and "contributors" are all peers in their capacities as editors. Having to identify as a contributor or self nominator makes the nominator feel like a student who is trying to pass an exam, and gives the idea that "reviewers" have some kind of special authority over the article, which the selfnominator and other contributors must subject themselves to. I don't believe this is the way it should be according to the Wikiprinciples. Basically I think the idea that a nominator or reviewer must identify as a contributor is based on assumptions of bad faith - it seems to indicate that "reviewers" don't think "contributors" are sufficiently able to recognise an article that conforms to the FA criteria. I also see this attitude in the FA review process where reviewers often seem to have a feeling of being automatically right in their opinions, and contributors seem to often conform to reviwers suggestions without questioning them. I think the review process as it is now promotes a hierarchical structure in the project that I believe goes against the fundamental principles, and I believe that the idea of nominating contributors having to identify as such is a part of that problem.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 16:51, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- So you disagree that there is value added in having new, fresh, independent, uninvolved editors looking at and Supporting an article, and you promote the idea that significant contributor Support from the editors who worked on the article, without independent peer review, should be sufficient for promoting to featured status? Then let's eliminate FAC and just let contributors assign themselves a star :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Strawman.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 17:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- No. Without identification of significant contributors, what differentiates self-promoting articles to featured status? Or what differentiates FAC from GAC, where one editor can promote? Please don't evade the question; without identification of significant contributors, how do we achieve independent peer review? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- My point is that making a sharp division between "reviewers" and "contributors/editors" is detrimental to the solidarity between the editors who are supposed to collaborate on improving articles. Reviewers are editors like all other editors who can edit the articles under review and who should seek consensus for their proposed changes. I do not want to cast doubt on the fact that review process are beneficial for article - because new eyes see things differntly and because old eyes often stare them self blind on certain details and lose sight of the big picture. This is undoubtful in my opinion. However, in a FAC review process the power balance tilts in favour of the reviewing editors because the "nominating contributors" of course have something to gain or lose if they fail to achieve the support of the reviewers. This is natural and probably cannot be completely avoided - but the power relation could be better balanced by focusing on the fact that a review process is a discussion between peers about how to improve an article achieve the most and not an examination of someones homework by a board of tenured professors. The idea of a "selfnomination" takes the FA process closer to the examination scenario because one editor assumes a special responsability for the state of the article and expresses a personal wish to see an article reach a certain state of perfection. Ideally this wish and responsability should equally pertain to the reviewers, who like the nominator is working to improve wikipedia, and maximising the amount of high quality articles. I think that the FA review process should strive to balance the power relations between reviewers and nominators instead of putting nominators in the spot as is the case now. I think that maybe the ideal nomination would be a drive by nomination where an editor accidentally discovers an article that is of very high quality and which only needs a little work, nominates it, collaborates with reviewers to make the finishing touches, and finally promotes it. I think that the FA process could be improved if it were explicitly stated that the goal of the process is for reviewers and nominators to collaborate on improving the article - and not a forum where nitpickers can go to get an easy night out on the nominators cost. Also I don't see why there must be differences between the processes that leads to an FA or a GA - why should there be? GA and FA are just distinct marks of quality, there are no reason the review processes should be different. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 18:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- For all the very time-consuming and thankless work they do, it's interesting to me that you don't view reviewers as collaborating to improve articles, while I see them as very selflessly collaborating to improve articles and help nominators succeed. Without the selfless work of reviewers, who often get little thanks or recognition for what they do, we wouldn't have an independent community process resulting in our best work to be displayed on the main page. I guess we all see things differently :-) GA is no mark of quality, since an editor who was a troll vandal or sockpuppet yesterday could promote an article to GA today. Question: why should we presume that a process whereby "an editor accidentally discovers an article that is of very high quality and which only needs a little work, nominates it, collaborates with reviewers to make the finishing touches, and finally promotes it" will result in anyone who has access to the highest quality sources and knows if the article is comprehensive working on the article, particularly when the editors who do have access and do know the topic agree the article is not yet ready? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) If I may butt in, I would hate to see articles being presented at FAC which are clearly far from ready in the hope that reviewers will fix them. GrahamColmTalk 18:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Again you are reading something I didn't say into my words. I did not say that reviewers are not collaborating to improve articles - I said that I think we should do more to stress that this is actually what an FA process is about. Reviewers do a great job and my own experiences in the FA reviews in which I have participated have been almost purely positive. If I understand your last sentence correctly, then my answer to your question about "why we should assume..." is that we should assume that because Assumption of Good Faith is a basic tenet around here. And in my opinion it is also near self evident that articles that are very far from being perfect in the opinions of the editors who are experts on the topic would not be promoted because the FA reviewers and the expert editors (who assumedly have the article on their watchlist) together would quickly see that the article was not ready and form a consensus to denominate. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 19:00, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Peer review is a good place for "an editor [who] accidentally discovers an article that is of very high quality and which only needs a little work, nominates it, collaborates with reviewers to make the finishing touches" to move the article closer to FA, hopefully garnering input from editors knowledgeable about the topic. If we had an unlimited supply of selfless reviewers and wanted the FAC page to regularly run 100 noms, we could do it all here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) If I may butt in, I would hate to see articles being presented at FAC which are clearly far from ready in the hope that reviewers will fix them. GrahamColmTalk 18:49, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- For all the very time-consuming and thankless work they do, it's interesting to me that you don't view reviewers as collaborating to improve articles, while I see them as very selflessly collaborating to improve articles and help nominators succeed. Without the selfless work of reviewers, who often get little thanks or recognition for what they do, we wouldn't have an independent community process resulting in our best work to be displayed on the main page. I guess we all see things differently :-) GA is no mark of quality, since an editor who was a troll vandal or sockpuppet yesterday could promote an article to GA today. Question: why should we presume that a process whereby "an editor accidentally discovers an article that is of very high quality and which only needs a little work, nominates it, collaborates with reviewers to make the finishing touches, and finally promotes it" will result in anyone who has access to the highest quality sources and knows if the article is comprehensive working on the article, particularly when the editors who do have access and do know the topic agree the article is not yet ready? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- My point is that making a sharp division between "reviewers" and "contributors/editors" is detrimental to the solidarity between the editors who are supposed to collaborate on improving articles. Reviewers are editors like all other editors who can edit the articles under review and who should seek consensus for their proposed changes. I do not want to cast doubt on the fact that review process are beneficial for article - because new eyes see things differntly and because old eyes often stare them self blind on certain details and lose sight of the big picture. This is undoubtful in my opinion. However, in a FAC review process the power balance tilts in favour of the reviewing editors because the "nominating contributors" of course have something to gain or lose if they fail to achieve the support of the reviewers. This is natural and probably cannot be completely avoided - but the power relation could be better balanced by focusing on the fact that a review process is a discussion between peers about how to improve an article achieve the most and not an examination of someones homework by a board of tenured professors. The idea of a "selfnomination" takes the FA process closer to the examination scenario because one editor assumes a special responsability for the state of the article and expresses a personal wish to see an article reach a certain state of perfection. Ideally this wish and responsability should equally pertain to the reviewers, who like the nominator is working to improve wikipedia, and maximising the amount of high quality articles. I think that the FA review process should strive to balance the power relations between reviewers and nominators instead of putting nominators in the spot as is the case now. I think that maybe the ideal nomination would be a drive by nomination where an editor accidentally discovers an article that is of very high quality and which only needs a little work, nominates it, collaborates with reviewers to make the finishing touches, and finally promotes it. I think that the FA process could be improved if it were explicitly stated that the goal of the process is for reviewers and nominators to collaborate on improving the article - and not a forum where nitpickers can go to get an easy night out on the nominators cost. Also I don't see why there must be differences between the processes that leads to an FA or a GA - why should there be? GA and FA are just distinct marks of quality, there are no reason the review processes should be different. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 18:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- No. Without identification of significant contributors, what differentiates self-promoting articles to featured status? Or what differentiates FAC from GAC, where one editor can promote? Please don't evade the question; without identification of significant contributors, how do we achieve independent peer review? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:54, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Strawman.·Maunus· ·ƛ· 17:50, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- So you disagree that there is value added in having new, fresh, independent, uninvolved editors looking at and Supporting an article, and you promote the idea that significant contributor Support from the editors who worked on the article, without independent peer review, should be sufficient for promoting to featured status? Then let's eliminate FAC and just let contributors assign themselves a star :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:55, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- I try to stay out of actually editing most of the articles that I review for FA and just offer comments on things the nominators should be able to fix. This is for two reasons: a) I'm not an expert on most of these topics and have no access to the sources) and b) when I do get sucked into editing an article that was having FA difficulty (like Roman Catholic Church) it ends up taking a great deal of my time and then I don't have the opportunity to provide constructive feedback on any other articles. A lot of nominations get closed without promotion because there aren't enough reviewers to go around. This is compounded by the fact that too many nominators either don't understand the FA criteria or want the FA reviewers to finish writing the article for them. Nominators and contributors should push back if they find reviewer comments unreasonable. I've struck my own comments when the nominator can provide a good reason for why something is the way it is in the article; and even if I don't strike it, with their explanation Sandy and Raul can at least weigh the objection and throw it out if needed. As a nominator, I've also refused to make changes because I didn't agree with them, but I explained why.
- As a reviewer, should my opinion count more than the contributors'? I think that depends. The contributors are obviously the factual experts. However, contributors can get too close to an article and not see its problems. The regular FAC reviewers read lots and lots of Featured article candidates; we know what gets promoted and what doesn't and why. The "opinions" we present are often the result of the consensus we've seen in those promotions and non-promotions. Reviewers seem to be the target of a lot of anger about the process; if I didn't think Sandy would drag me back kicking and screaming I would have quit a few times by now (that, and the fact that occasionally I find an article that is really, really good). Karanacs (talk) 19:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- P.S. I'd like to add that a lot of people don't realize that many of the regular FAC reviewers are also regular FAC contributors; we've been on both sides and are still here. Maybe if other contributors started reviewing articles they'd change their minds about how awful the reviewers are. Karanacs (talk) 19:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Reviewer burnout is something I worry about; I don't like to see either nominators or reviwers taking a beating. Reminder to self to stalk Karanacs' for personally identifying info so I can drag her back kicking and screaming if she ever leaves :-)). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:43, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
I also dislike the "self-nomination" label on so many FACs, for the same reasons already stated. That said, I think a large amount of triage is inevitable. Rather than write ever longer and more complex instructions to nominators, how about expanding the instructions to reviewers? Reviewers now respond with "support", "oppose", and "comment"; how about adding "premature" to the list? Or, hey, how about encouraging reviewers to oppose because the nomination is premature? --Una Smith (talk) 19:21, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Already discussed in several sections above. Some nominations which appear grossly unprepared might make it; some do. And we need actionable opposes; premature doesn't do anything different than Oppose if it's not actionable. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:25, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- There aren't enough reviewers, period. How does it matter whether they hang out in PR or in FAC? --Una Smith (talk) 19:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- It matters because peer review affords the luxury of time. Extensive work can be done outside of FAC, without pressure. And "not enough reviewers" is the opposite side of the "too many driveby noms" coin :-) Same thing. There are enough reviewers if they don't have to peer review premature noms. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Reviewing a FAC can be quick, easy and a pleasure, if the article has been well prepared.[4] It's not a pleasure when the article is far from ready and the nominator can't understand why or thinks FAC is the place for articles to get fixed,[5]. But, enough from me. GrahamColmTalk 19:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is really a pointless discussion. "Self-nom", whether implicit or explicit, is a matter of ethics. It is crucial to know whether someone who is "supporting" an article has significantly contributed to it. I always make it clear in my "nomination" statements that I am the primary editor or the article by explaining my contributions. If I were to offer a "support" vote under that nomination, it would become clear that I was trying to !vote stack. "Self-nom" is just another way of making this claim clear - I do not see a big distinction between this phrase and other phrases people use to indicate that they are the primary contributor to the article. Let's not get picky. If we want to have a discussion about the ways in which FAC itself promotes article ownership, by all means let's do that, but let's look at the real issues, not tangential ones. Awadewit (talk) 23:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- To me the pint is precisely that a selfnominators vote of support is worth exactly the same as a reviewers vote of support and has nothing to do with vote stacking. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 06:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think major contributors have a conflict of interest and must be identified. Obviously they think the article is FA-ready, or they should not have nominated it. The point of FAC is to see what the rest of the community thinks, and we need a way to easily see who that is. Karanacs (talk) 14:47, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- To me the pint is precisely that a selfnominators vote of support is worth exactly the same as a reviewers vote of support and has nothing to do with vote stacking. ·Maunus· ·ƛ· 06:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- This is really a pointless discussion. "Self-nom", whether implicit or explicit, is a matter of ethics. It is crucial to know whether someone who is "supporting" an article has significantly contributed to it. I always make it clear in my "nomination" statements that I am the primary editor or the article by explaining my contributions. If I were to offer a "support" vote under that nomination, it would become clear that I was trying to !vote stack. "Self-nom" is just another way of making this claim clear - I do not see a big distinction between this phrase and other phrases people use to indicate that they are the primary contributor to the article. Let's not get picky. If we want to have a discussion about the ways in which FAC itself promotes article ownership, by all means let's do that, but let's look at the real issues, not tangential ones. Awadewit (talk) 23:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Reviewing a FAC can be quick, easy and a pleasure, if the article has been well prepared.[4] It's not a pleasure when the article is far from ready and the nominator can't understand why or thinks FAC is the place for articles to get fixed,[5]. But, enough from me. GrahamColmTalk 19:42, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- It matters because peer review affords the luxury of time. Extensive work can be done outside of FAC, without pressure. And "not enough reviewers" is the opposite side of the "too many driveby noms" coin :-) Same thing. There are enough reviewers if they don't have to peer review premature noms. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- There aren't enough reviewers, period. How does it matter whether they hang out in PR or in FAC? --Una Smith (talk) 19:27, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Just as a comment from a different angle, is it necessary or reasonable to expect that the person nominating an article will be the "go-to" person should any issues come up during an FA review? There can be some value, if this is the case, to indicating self-noms as to know if there are people that are going to jump in to fix anything that may come up. --MASEM 15:08, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I think it is reasonable to expect nominators to pick up and deal with issues raised during the review, or at least be prepared to act as a backstop if they're not dealt with by someone else. --Malleus Fatuorum (talk) 16:13, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Readability tools
Since I have limited time to take on projects, I need to know if the readability toolBeta ver. should be developed further. The new thing I've added the bottom is the SMOG scores per paragraph. It known that a single author writes in a constant style and their work will be roughly the same score with any given text. But Wikipedia's articles have multiple writers. The tool will indicate on some article[6] if the style varies too much in readability. If there's no significant interest then the tool will only be developed as an academic excess. — Dispenser 05:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- That's excellent. Should help reviewers and editors quickly identify some paragraphs needing work. Shouldn't the number of monosyllabic words and polysyllabic words equal the total number of words? Check spelling of "readable prose" ;) Gimmetrow 05:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- You forgot about words which only have two syllables. There are (glaring) flaws in the software, so the idea is to rewrite it with properly researched algorithms. — Dispenser 13:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Forgive me for saying this but I'm profoundly suspicious of automated analysis. Probably just the Luddite in me. In one experiment I read about (which I've tried Googling for but can't find) the "To be or not to be" soliloquy was supposed to have a reading age of eight or nine, based on the shortness of the words used. Hmmm. --ROGER DAVIES talk 13:48, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I found it interesting, but I'm a geekette, so while I wouldn't use it to support or oppose, but it is a good all around extra tool to use. Just like I don't completely trust the link checker tool (I usually click on most of them anyway) I wouldn't trust any tool totally, without reading the article myself. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- BTW, if you find something incorrect with the results of checklinks.py leave a note. — Dispenser 14:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- I found it interesting, but I'm a geekette, so while I wouldn't use it to support or oppose, but it is a good all around extra tool to use. Just like I don't completely trust the link checker tool (I usually click on most of them anyway) I wouldn't trust any tool totally, without reading the article myself. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:50, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Your absolutely correct. I had same doubts when first learning of readability tests and early on added a boilerplate message advising them not to take the results too seriously. I plan on adding flags if the parameters of particular tests are not meet in the rewrite. Right now I've hack in a word count check. — Dispenser 14:46, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Cool. I like it. I'm addicted to Word 2003's readability statistics. I find them useful as an objective score that I can use to show my progress in revising. (Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level 7.8) Cheers! Wassupwestcoast (talk) 15:05, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- The best use of the tool would be to help us improve the prose; the scores themselves are probably not so important. I like tools that list the most "difficult" sentences. qp10qp (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- You wouldn't want to use the scores directly because of the rather large standard deviation and the use of names (especially Japanese) will only give something good in ±2. As for individual sentences, the sample size is too small to inaccurately do that. It is actually good to stick short sentences in to break monotony. — Dispenser 04:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- The best use of the tool would be to help us improve the prose; the scores themselves are probably not so important. I like tools that list the most "difficult" sentences. qp10qp (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
"Readabible text" - intentional jest, holy typo, or exhortation to study the scriptures? Yomanganitalk 00:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Whoops, I'm surprised I hadn't caught that. — Dispenser 04:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I think I'm missing something. Can someone explain how to use this tool to improve an article? It looks like an interesting tool, but I'm not sure how to apply its findings. — Dulcem (talk) 00:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- You're not alone in that. --ROGER DAVIES talk 00:43, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- The idea is to find outlier and other unusually thing as well as to monitor constancy. For example, when newspaper first started using readability tests they were able to increase the size of their audience by making it more accessible. Most adults read at a 7/8 grade level. — Dispenser 04:37, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Does it mean that having consistent even bars with little variation is good? Is a small bar easy or hard to read? Blnguyen (bananabucket) 01:45, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- The end section gives SMOG values per paragraph. Smaller numbers correspond to easier-to-read text. Wild variation might show a text needing more unity, but some paragraphs will need to use longer words to cover what they need to cover, and they will naturally have higher scores. Gimmetrow 01:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I still don't get it. Apparently the final paragraph of Donkey Kong (video game) requires 23 years of education to understand? (link) Perhaps someone could write a walkthrough on how to use the tool and interpret its results. Might make a good subject for a Dispatch article. — Dulcem (talk) 04:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- There are articles on the readability tests. Each produces different numbers. The bar chart at the end of Dispenser's tool uses the SMOG test. Depending on your browser setup, if you mouse-over a bar it shows the first sentence of the paragraph, so you can tell which paragraph it is. The paragraph with the 22.92 score is short with a few 3+ syllable words and only two sentences, so it scores high. You can decide whether that paragraph is really too complex, and if it is, whether it needs to be. I would just treat it as a tool to identify paragraphs that may be rough for readers. Gimmetrow 06:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- I still don't get it. Apparently the final paragraph of Donkey Kong (video game) requires 23 years of education to understand? (link) Perhaps someone could write a walkthrough on how to use the tool and interpret its results. Might make a good subject for a Dispatch article. — Dulcem (talk) 04:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
Withdrawing a nomination
Should instructions be listed as to how to withdraw a nomination? An editor recently withdrew Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Thriller (album) but failed to archive it properly (I went ahead and did it...hope that was OK, Sandy). I guess there are probably two ways to go about this. One is to instruct nominators to do the deed themselves: remove the nomination from WP:FAC and archive it at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Archived nominations. The other is to just instruct them to let the FA director/delegates know that they wish to withdraw the nomination. BuddingJournalist 22:28, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, it's all goofed up :-) I'm still trying to catch up with what you've done. I'll Be Back. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Generally, it's best to encourage nominators to either leave a note on the nomination or a request on my talk page when they want to withdraw; this avoids problems that may stall the bot or result in extra steps for me. The biggest problem is that nominators frequently removed the {{fac}} tag from the article talk page when they withdraw, which forces GimmeBot to stop and restore it, so when a fac is withdrawn, I doublecheck that the tag is still on the talk page and I make sure the nominator is aware of the bot issues via a link to WP:FAC/ar. Also, when a premature FAC is withdrawn with no opposes, it doesn't need to be archived and botified into {{articlehistory}}, and is handled completely differently (I do those manually so GimmeBot doesn't have to engage, and since articlehistory isn't affected). If a couple of fac regulars want to learn to do this, that would be welcome, but I don't really want to put out general instructions, as I don't want to risk errors that may stall my favorite bot. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:12, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
- Gotcha. BuddingJournalist 23:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
Admin attention needed
I'm not an admin, so I can't restore Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rongorongo/archive2, an archived botified FAC that was deleted by the nominator. I also need help from FAC regulars in stopping this trend of nominators bringing a FAC back within hours of it being archived. There are at least six steps involved in resolving this, and in this case, because the editor deleted an archived FAC, I can't solve it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:57, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Sounds to me like an admission that you need the admin bit. There's an easy solution here ;) Raul654 (talk) 06:02, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
- Also, to repeat here what I said on my talk page - Sandy is my proxy. I expect her decisions to be treated just as if I had done them myself. And if someone went and immediately renominated an article after I had archived it (or worse, undone an archiving) I would be extremely irritated. Raul654 (talk) 06:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)