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*Speaking of that, Karanacs and Laser brain are now in a tough position. They surely know about the comments, and they know how good a reviewer you are. It's not going to be easy for them to make a decision. When you become a director or delegate at a process like this, it gives you a different perspective than as a reviewer, where you really are solely focused on the content in question. As a director/delegate, there's a greater awareness of ''everything'' involved with the reviewing that occurs. It's holistic, in a way. |
*Speaking of that, Karanacs and Laser brain are now in a tough position. They surely know about the comments, and they know how good a reviewer you are. It's not going to be easy for them to make a decision. When you become a director or delegate at a process like this, it gives you a different perspective than as a reviewer, where you really are solely focused on the content in question. As a director/delegate, there's a greater awareness of ''everything'' involved with the reviewing that occurs. It's holistic, in a way. |
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*Let's say Sandy does recuse from the articles you review. What will this do to FAC, considering that Sandy is by far the most active closer? Will we need another delegate? Will Karanacs and Laser be active enough that a fourth delegate isn't needed? The whole situation is a can of worms. '''[[User:Giants2008|<font color="blue">Giants2008</font>]]''' ([[User talk:Giants2008|<font color="darkblue">27 and counting</font>]]) 17:42, 2 July 2011 (UTC) |
*Let's say Sandy does recuse from the articles you review. What will this do to FAC, considering that Sandy is by far the most active closer? Will we need another delegate? Will Karanacs and Laser be active enough that a fourth delegate isn't needed? The whole situation is a can of worms. '''[[User:Giants2008|<font color="blue">Giants2008</font>]]''' ([[User talk:Giants2008|<font color="darkblue">27 and counting</font>]]) 17:42, 2 July 2011 (UTC) |
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Picking up on what Cla68 said above, I did try and step in on Tony's talk page and make him see that he needed to withdraw his comments, and he did strike them, and eventually remove them, and has now apologised. The dispute seems to have moved on now to being one between Tony and Sandy (which has been going on for a while). I do think Tony has a point about the Signpost work he does and Sandy's reaction to that. I've been following that dispute for some time, and if there are problems there, those need to be resolved and not left to fester. Oh, and one more point. Can we have a bit less of ''"you are the finest prose reviewer on this website"''? I agree Tony is a fine prose reviewer, but it never helps to elevate anyone to a pinnacle like that, as it puts an unfair amount of pressure on them, and there are many other fine prose reviewers - no-one should ever feel they have to review prose and that they are the best person to do something. There should always be someone else able to do the same job to about the same level. [[User:Carcharoth|Carcharoth]] ([[User talk:Carcharoth|talk]]) 12:09, 3 July 2011 (UTC) |
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==Objectivity, please== |
==Objectivity, please== |
Revision as of 12:09, 3 July 2011
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how much blue and huge should there be in the references?
1. Just saw one new to me, which was wikilinking journal names and even books and publishers. Do we want that?
2. I have been guilty in the past of wikilinking authors.
3. There is the new PMID/DOI thing (which I need to read up on, not used to, did not do in "real papers"). And not only do we have them...but they are linked. So more blue. And they only seem to take you to an abstract, so not sure what the point. Especially if they have to be extra blue (or can they just be the number sans blue?)
3.5. And ISBN blueing?
4. Then the language templates and subscription needed are kinda bulky too. Look funky compared to print sources. (and extra templates for delay time.) And given we have all kinds of people who go over refs like crazy, not sure we should drive it off of conveneice of the closing director (at least go with a what is best for the reader argument).
Net/net: kinda wondering what we are devoloping in terms of the refs looking like blue next to blue (bad) or just going template crazy.
TCO (talk) 04:01, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- At least when it comes to the ISBN/ISSN/OCLC links, using them I can search for the source using http://www.worldcat.org/ and attempt to find it in a library near me. PMID/DOI links help with locating copies of articles as well. I tend to wikilink newspaper or publisher names on first occurrence as a courtesy to online readers. That way they can get more information on the source. None of this is discouraged nor encouraged by the FA criteria so long as the article is internally consistent. Imzadi 1979 → 04:24, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
- ISBN/ISSNs can be very useful. I think linking authors and books is a good idea, iff they are not linked in the article's body text. I see no reason to link journals, but wouldn't complain if I saw it, simply 'cause there are no grounds for complaining. I don't think WP:OVERLINK is applicable, but YMMV. – Ling.Nut 04:50, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
Well...you can search worldcat fine, by cutting and pasting the number into the worldcat search. This is all about having quick links. But we are ending with several links in each ref and getting blue spread. It kinda distracts from the link to the article itself.TCO (talk) 04:54, 10 June 2011 (UTC)
When I look at the doi linking in Fluorine, we have the term doi wikilinked, then we have the external link for the actual doi. Do we really need to wikilink the term "doi"? It creates blue next to blue and is pretty much a junk link.TCO (talk) 19:38, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
- I haven't checked, but I suspect that link would be a function of the citation template used. You could raise the issue at the template talk page (where my crystal ball suggests the likely response would be "but no one actually knows what doi means without the link!"). Nikkimaria (talk) 19:54, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
- Sigh. That is a crappy reason. There are other aspects of a reference citation which are not intuitively obvious (like volume numbers), but we expect users to decode. Having that thing wikilinked a gazillion times is a waste of blue ink and very distracting to have right next to the external link for the doi itself. Just more cruft...TCO (talk) 05:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree - I'd say volume numbers and the like are instantly recognisable for what they are, whereas specialist reference numbers like those mentioned do require some explanation. GRAPPLE X 05:56, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- By repeating it 5 million times? If it's such a great thing to have, then why will it confuse people? Or they can look it up once and then know. but wikilink time after time after time? And blue next to blue? What a waste, hard to click on the right part when you want to follow the doi itself (not the definition of a doi!) It's wiki-cruft. It's bad writing.TCO (talk) 06:21, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, it seems the only way to avoid the repeated linking is to go all or nothing, and I would avoid the nothing option. Unless, however, some syntax in the code for reference lists and citation templates would stop the template linking the term if it's already linked by a previous instance of the same template, but that sounds impossible. GRAPPLE X 06:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- By repeating it 5 million times? If it's such a great thing to have, then why will it confuse people? Or they can look it up once and then know. but wikilink time after time after time? And blue next to blue? What a waste, hard to click on the right part when you want to follow the doi itself (not the definition of a doi!) It's wiki-cruft. It's bad writing.TCO (talk) 06:21, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- I disagree - I'd say volume numbers and the like are instantly recognisable for what they are, whereas specialist reference numbers like those mentioned do require some explanation. GRAPPLE X 05:56, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
- Sigh. That is a crappy reason. There are other aspects of a reference citation which are not intuitively obvious (like volume numbers), but we expect users to decode. Having that thing wikilinked a gazillion times is a waste of blue ink and very distracting to have right next to the external link for the doi itself. Just more cruft...TCO (talk) 05:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
Page not refreshing
Hey. My WP:FAC page doesn't seem to be refreshing correctly. I have purged cache several times, but an old version (maybe 4 or 5 days old) keeps appearing. 82.8.55.199 (talk) 17:55, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
Question about nominating overlapping articles
A long time ago I posted a question about whether it was appropriate to reuse text written for one featured article in another article. I believe the example was a paragraph written to explain the state of the sources for Anglo-Saxon history (short version: there aren't many). The paragraph has obvious utility in multiple articles about kings of the period, and I felt some qualms about pasting it in to a second or third article that I later took to FAC, but the consensus was that it was fine to do that.
I now have a more extreme case that I'd like to get feedback on. There are two examples. The first is Astonishing Stories, which I'd like to nominate at FAC when I've finished with it. It published 16 issues in the 1940s. It had a companion magazine, Super Science Stories, which published 31 issues in two runs; during the first run it was a companion to Astonishing. There is very little that could be said about Astonishing that could not also be said about Super Science Stories; they had the same publisher, the same editor, the same pay rates, similar editorial policies, and were published in alternate months for a year or two. There are anecdotes to be told about the hiring of the editor that apply to both magazines. The only real difference is the specific stories that appeared in each magazine and the specific publication schedule; that's probably close to half the content of the article, but no more than that. I could easily write the Super Science Stories article to use at least half of the text of the Astonishing Stories article with only minimal changes. (If you look at the Astonishing Stories article you'll see that the entire "Publication history" section, which is not yet complete, applies to both magazines. This feels quite wrong.
I could also merge the two into a single article, which feels much more sensible, and wouldn't make me feel like I was getting two FA stars for the price of one. However, no other reference works do this. Tymn & Ashley, one of the main references, has a separate article on each magazine but much of the length is a detailed consideration of the fiction and whether it was any good, which I think goes beyond what could or should be done in Wikipedia -- I typically summarize or compress those views in the articles I write. All the other references either treat them together in running prose (e.g. no magazine title headings, because the book is a history, not an encyclopedia), or they list them separately but devote little text to either one. So merging feels wrong because it doesn't correspond to a reader's expectations. I would probably call the article "Astonishing Stories and Super Science Stories" if I did make them into one article.
Another example is Famous Fantastic Mysteries and Fantastic Novels which have a very similar overlap; there are probably some other cases that will come up as I go through the minor sf magazines. I won't bore you with the details; the point is just that this is not an isolated case. Any comments or advice would be appreciated. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:16, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
- Mike, I don't have a strong opinion on this. The closest existing example I can think of are the Victoria Cross series of articles (a Featured Topic). I believe that the ones for the Victoria Cross in other countries have a great deal of overlapping text, but I can't remember what percentage of the article that was. Karanacs (talk) 21:25, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think it is OK. If someone starts abusing it, we can reassess. I sometimes pluck a paragraph from one article and put it in the development of another. As time goes by, the text will diverge due to random edits anyway. It's not a big deal.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:57, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
- A lot of the Brill Tramway series have large sections reused (since every part of it was closed at the same time, and for the same reason, by definition every "closure" section will be similar). I don't recall any problems there. – iridescent 22:47, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think it is OK. If someone starts abusing it, we can reassess. I sometimes pluck a paragraph from one article and put it in the development of another. As time goes by, the text will diverge due to random edits anyway. It's not a big deal.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:57, 16 June 2011 (UTC)
I don't feel bad about you getting more stars. That's totally fine. I do wonder if editorially (for the reader) it would be better to combine those two articles though. Don't really care if the other sources don't do it that way, just wonder if you can really say more intresting things by having them together in one roof. Your call, though. Would think you would want to make that call regardless of if the things were at FA or not.TCO (talk) 04:40, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- Ideally, the reader who has read one of these articles could be directed (somehow) towards a summary or comparison with the other one, rather than re-reading all of the same text. But both articles are likely to be needed as some people will arrive at one article and not the other one. I would still try and avoid a complete regurgitation of the same text and layout, as that feeling of 'sameness' is already somewhat of a problem when the same editor produces a series of articles within a topic, in the sense that you get the same style of writing and layout, rather than the slight changes you would get if different people did articles within a topic (I can hear several people who produce such series of articles fainting in horror). My suggestion would be that if you are doing an article within a topic, and you are utilising much the same sources, to try as much as possible (within the constraints of Wikipedia policy and guidelines) to produce good writing, prose that grabs the reader and is readable, rather than a repetition of what has been said in another article in that topic (i.e. challenge yourself to try and write differently to keep things fresh). If you find that difficult, ask another editor to write something using the same sources, and see whether the wording they come up with is good enough, but different enough, to avoid repetition. It would be interesting to see the results of such switch-overs (probably edit warring, ultimately, over which version is 'better', though I shouldn't be so cynical). On a more practical level, have you tried asking other editors of science fiction/magazine articles, as they might have more ideas than the people here? Carcharoth (talk) 23:12, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- Haven't looked at the articles, so don't know the specifics. But, for instance, with Painted turtle, I think our article was a LOT better by having all the subspecies under a species article and discussing in that manner. Use of some formatting still allows scanning for subspecies info. a lot of the info is at the species level, and then you can compare and contrast better. Wait...will go look at those two articles...to make this less theoretical.TCO (talk) 23:44, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
I think I will go ahead and keep the articles separate; I'll make sure to note the overlap when I nominate the second one at FAC so that reviewers can comment again if they wish to. Carcharoth, I'd love to get the opinion of other sf magazine editors, but there doesn't seem to be anyone else working on them. I might see if I can find active magazine editors in other genres and get an opinion, but the comments above have convinced me the articles need to be separated. TCO, in their current state you are right that the articles would be better combined but there is substantial material still to be added, particularly to Super Science Stories. Thanks to everyone for the replies here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:03, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
1. Not just on this issue, but there is some fellow (PresN?) who does FLs on Hugo Award winners. Just based on subject matter stuff, you should ask him for a review.
2. My old man had all those magazines. Those ones you mention, plus a bunch of weird ones in the 40s (English stuff), and New Wave stuff from the 70s and 30s Astounding. Pretty much every single magazine really. Guy passed away decades ago though...and my mom is still living and asked me to clean them out a couple year ago. Was literally 10+ boxes, all organized and all.TCO (talk) 17:10, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the note about PresN; perhaps I should post at the sf wikiproject and see if he or any one else responds. As for the magazines -- let me know if you still have any! I collect them as well as write about them. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:12, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'll keep an eye out, but really all the good stuff is gone. 15 boxes of paperback books (mostly SF) gone as well. Gave them to a used book store. Have hardcovers, but no urge to part with those until Mom passes (not near). Yeah, definitely get a subject matter expert for review. When I canv...recruit my reviewers, I always think of hitting a few different areas. Don't want to get blindsided by missing some basic understandings. When I do "Turtles of Texas", will want to make sure at least one "state expert" (oooh...Karen!) looks at it, not just herpies and MOSers.TCO (talk) 17:34, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- Hey, was checking out this talk page and saw my name! My Hugo Award lists aren't really the same thing; while 95% of the text is identical between articles, they just set up the (massive) tables (which are of course different) and aren't really the focus of the article, despite being at the top. That said, FLC has never once had a problem with the overlap of text, and I've done 15 of them. While FAC is of course different, I'd say that if the reference materials treat them separately, they should stay as separate articles, despite any overlap in text. --PresN 20:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- The big thing is that any language borrowed from another article should be properly credited in the edit summary; i.e., "some of this language was taken from the Wikipedia article Stultifying Stories as of revision date 12-19-2010 07:15 GST" in order to preserve the copyright chain of evidence. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:17, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
- Someone please slap me. Hard. I thought I just read someone saying that Wikipedia should cite Wikipedia as a source. Insert various involuntary bodily actions associate with rejecting a foreign substance here. Why oh why would Wikipedia cite (or even recycle text from) something that is not WP:RS? – Ling.Nut 13:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- No, that's not what Orangemike said -- he said that if you take text from one Wikipedia article and put it in another you should say so in the edit summary to preserve the authorship chain. It's nothing to do with citations or reliable sources. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:05, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- I find that bizarre all the same, particularly if it had been me who wrote the original text, for instance, and reused it or a near copy in another similar article. Malleus Fatuorum 14:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- I would imagine you're right if the text is entirely authored by the person who is copying it. I assume it's more relevant to cases where you're copying material that was at least partly written by others. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- It is best to always attribute the origins of the text, even if it is yourself you are copying. For example, if you copy something you wrote on Wikipedia 10 years ago, you might want to make that clear, rather than implying (by no attribution) that you 'wrote' the text in question the same day you made the new edit. And if anyone has modified text that you wrote (no matter how minor the modification) and you copy the modified text across, you technically have to attribute the origin of the copied text (one method is to give a diff in the edit summary). Of course, it is very easy to forget to do this when moving around text you know you have written entirely yourself, and no-one will really care. The point is to check that it is entirely your own work and hasn't been modified. Carcharoth (talk) 14:34, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- It's in one of the policies, Moonriddengirl would know. If you copy text from one page to another the edit summary should reflect that. I do it routinely because I've been working on overlapping articles. When I lift out text from one page and paste into another I simply put in the edit summary where the text came from. I'll try to find the policy. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:36, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- It's explained in Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:40, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- See also Where attribution is not needed. The issue of whether time comes into it at all hasn't been raised there. The implication is that people copying what they themselves wrote are copying what they wrote recently. I would still (to avoid confusion) state explicitly in the edit summary that the text you are adding is your own wording from elsewhere. For example, if you copy a chunk of text from a Wikipedia article you wrote some years ago, some bots or people may correlate it with unattributed Wikipedia mirrors and start querying it. It is also good practice anyway, as if someone asks you (or you ask yourself) in another 5 years where the text came from, you can point to the edit summary and say "I got it from this article I wrote a few weeks/months/years previously". The thing that prompted me to source everything I add was looking at edits I had made 5 years ago and not remembering where I had got the information from... My rule of thumb now is to ask myself whether would I be able to look at an edit I make now and explain it to myself or others in five years time? Carcharoth (talk) 15:51, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- It's explained in Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:40, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- I would imagine you're right if the text is entirely authored by the person who is copying it. I assume it's more relevant to cases where you're copying material that was at least partly written by others. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:28, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- I find that bizarre all the same, particularly if it had been me who wrote the original text, for instance, and reused it or a near copy in another similar article. Malleus Fatuorum 14:09, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- No, that's not what Orangemike said -- he said that if you take text from one Wikipedia article and put it in another you should say so in the edit summary to preserve the authorship chain. It's nothing to do with citations or reliable sources. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:05, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
- Someone please slap me. Hard. I thought I just read someone saying that Wikipedia should cite Wikipedia as a source. Insert various involuntary bodily actions associate with rejecting a foreign substance here. Why oh why would Wikipedia cite (or even recycle text from) something that is not WP:RS? – Ling.Nut 13:56, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
image reviews are not only about permissions
Yeah permissions is the most important, but we should also look at "do we have things that need to be shown in pictures, pictures", "are the pictures well done". This is a part of the reader experience and is in our FA criteria as well.TCO (talk) 09:19, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
article vs. talk space
What is the meaning of Category:Wikipedia featured articles in talk space and Category:Featured articles in article space? Where does the official FA count come from?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:30, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- The former is more of a catch-all category with lots of sub-categories such as Category:Featured articles that have appeared on the main page, etc. The latter is where I assume the tally comes from. GRAPPLE X 23:37, 17 June 2011 (UTC)
- The "official" FA count is the number of articles on WP:FA, and it's on WP:FA. I've given a more detailed response to TTT's question at WT:GAN#article_vs._talk_space. Gimmetoo (talk) 00:18, 18 June 2011 (UTC)
"External links" should come after "See also" (link)
I've started a discussion to elevate "External links" higher in article. After footnotes, seems extremely buried for valuable content. Feels like treating it like categories or somethink low content like that.
TCO (talk) 17:30, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- That's the first time I've seen External links called "valuable content". They're usually just a dumping ground for semi-random urls in my experience. Malleus Fatuorum 17:57, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- I tend to look at things, not just with a this is how we do it in Wiki, way. But with a "this is how real people in the rest of the world" attitude.
- For Fluorine, I would much prefer being able to show the video (which is not a source, nor do we own it) much higher in article than down in category purgatory. (I have NO problems with cruft monsters screwing up any of my articles, btw.) Even more so, the Carter Library is a pretty damned high value resource to show to readers of a Jimmy Carter article.
- I just honestly think this is a more efficient presentation of content. I would not bury it behind the refs in a written report, or if I were making a website off-wiki. The content is too valuable. Scrolling past screens of endnots makes little sense. And it really is similar in nature to See also, so it puts like with like. Could even call it See also (wiki), see also (external). I mean this is not that radical...not like I'm talking about hyperlinking (responsibly) in articles or the like. It's IN our article regardless. We are just putting the info in an inconvenient spot...and trying to keep traffic in our walls. I love my audience more than I love teh wiki. I love logical organization in a heirarchical, prioritized arrangement more than I love what some coder wiki person came up with.TCO (talk) 18:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- P.s. A lot of the wiki articles, daughters, etc. that we send people to are not up to scratch either. A lot of them just read like random people had added some factoids of info. Don't even read like a person had sat down and written a basic first draft. And content can be extremely spotty (huge gaps of key aspects).TCO (talk) 18:34, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
There is a template box {{External media}} for linking to videos like that that we can't upload and add directly to the article, and I've seen such a box used in the body of an article just like a photo, video or pull quote box. As for other links, sorry, I disagree. As I commented at the VP link, content external to our website should be at the end of the article, allowing the reference section(s) to act as the dividing line between "our" content and "theirs". Imzadi 1979 → 18:39, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
P.S. As for articles that aren't "up to scratch": fix them. What's the whole point of an "encyclopedia anyone can edit". Imzadi 1979 → 18:41, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- No no no. I spend a lot of time cleaning out linkfarms on pages - external links are spam magnets and should stay where they are. I'd be happy to get rid of them altogether, put that's the purist in me. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:43, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) It's certainly true that rather little of wikipedia's content is worth spit, but rather few external links are much better, although the video you link to may be an honourable exception. (Who owns the copyright on that BTW? I didn't see any licensing info, and I believe that linking to copyright violations is a no-no.) My view is rather different from yours, in that I'm rather suspicious of See also sections, and always wonder why, if the links are so notable, they haven't been included in the text. So I'd be arguing for the removal of See also, in which case it makes perfect sense to have the external links after the information on the article's sourcing. Malleus Fatuorum 18:47, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- My feelings on Extermal Links and Seealso sections align with Malleus' in that I find 90% or more unnecessary (especially any seealso item which can't be incorporated into the body of the text). The videos are a notable exception. It is unfortunate we can't adjust the video upwards but I don't see how it is possible. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Casliber, the documentation for {{external media}} states: "this template is normally placed in the main body of the article, in the same place that you would normally have placed the image, audio, or video clip if it had been available on Wikimedia Commons." My advice then to TCO is that if the video isn't a copyright violation by the server hosting it, use that template in the body of the article. At a later date, if the video, or a replacement for it, becomes available to us, the template can be replaced with a direct copy of that video. That way TCO's video link doesn't have to be buried down at the bottom of the article. Imzadi 1979 → 20:53, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- My feelings on Extermal Links and Seealso sections align with Malleus' in that I find 90% or more unnecessary (especially any seealso item which can't be incorporated into the body of the text). The videos are a notable exception. It is unfortunate we can't adjust the video upwards but I don't see how it is possible. Casliber (talk · contribs) 20:42, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Yeah...I've actually used that template before. And then gotten donation for the video and hosted it with us (which ironically makes it less available as 50% of users can not run our videos...they don't work well on IE). really, that video, though covers the element overall, so not sure where to put it. Not like the Oregon video in Painted turtle which specifically illustrated the conservation section. Also, we really do have the possiblity of things like a presidential library...that covers our whole topic...not a section.TCO (talk) 20:57, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree with Malleus and Casliber, in that most 'see also' links should be incorporated into the article by the time it reaches FA, and similarly external links should be pruned to the most relevant and informative. Though both the 'see also' and 'external links' section are useful dumping grounds for pointers towards content that editors may not have time to incorporate directly, similar to the way "further reading" sections can be used for sources that an editor may not have access to (offline or behind a paywall), but which they know will be a useful resource for a reader or a future editor of the article. I agree with TCO to the extent that external links, when done properly (and sorted into subsections) can be a very, very useful resource for the reader (I am surprised that featured article reviews don't really seem to pay much attention to external links). For particularly broad topics (i.e. not niche, obscure topics), a good external links and further reading section underlines the crucial point that a Wikipedia article is only a summary and starting point, and while many readers will go no further, we do need to think of the reader that wants to read more about the topic elsewhere. The mindset that a Wikipedia featured article is the be-all-and-end-all for the reader is sometimes seen when people make the claim that articles they have written are the best thing available on a topic (this may be true for narrow topics, but can never be true for broad topics). Really, Wikipedia articles are just a starting point, and the next step for most readers is to read the sources used in writing the article, and to follow the external links and any suggestions in 'further reading'. Carcharoth (talk) 21:40, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Obviously I agree with the general thrust of your comments, but I have never seen any editor claim that any wikipedia article is the best account of anything. What I have sometimes seen is a claim that it's the best online account, which is a fish of an entirely different colour. Malleus Fatuorum 21:45, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Malleus, I think a case could be made that quite a few wiki articles put all the pieces together on topics which have never been all put together in print. Accounts of political sidekicks, who perhaps have never had a bio themselves but who are mentioned now and again in their boss's bios.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:53, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Much more broad than that. I'd bet that you won't find a better online account of the Samlesbury witches, for instance, or I'd wager to say a better account anywhere. Or the Manchester Mummy for that matter. None of them are political sidekicks. Malleus Fatuorum 22:15, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- I would not quarrel with that, nor for many horses and bishops. Or even (gasp) hurricanes.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Synagogues? Bus stops? Sock drawers? That said on chemical elements G&E, C&W, CRC, and Ullmans, bend us over the transom.TCO (talk) 22:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'm rather disappointed we don't seem to have an article on all the endless documentaries about the Kennedy family. I just watched one on BBC2, narrated from the point-of-view of the nannies, about the Kennedy children. It was called Kennedys' Home Movies (broadcast in the US on TLC). It wasn't bad, actually, as a story, regardless of how much dramatic license it took with its editorialising. I was hoping to find something here or elsewhere on the internet about how accurate it was, or what reactions there were to it, but nothing so far apart from TV reviews. Carcharoth (talk) 01:05, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- Synagogues? Bus stops? Sock drawers? That said on chemical elements G&E, C&W, CRC, and Ullmans, bend us over the transom.TCO (talk) 22:31, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- I would not quarrel with that, nor for many horses and bishops. Or even (gasp) hurricanes.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Much more broad than that. I'd bet that you won't find a better online account of the Samlesbury witches, for instance, or I'd wager to say a better account anywhere. Or the Manchester Mummy for that matter. None of them are political sidekicks. Malleus Fatuorum 22:15, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Malleus, I think a case could be made that quite a few wiki articles put all the pieces together on topics which have never been all put together in print. Accounts of political sidekicks, who perhaps have never had a bio themselves but who are mentioned now and again in their boss's bios.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:53, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I am just a little pus...person...compared to you great ones that we read of in the Wikipedia Review. That said, in my limited newbie career, have had a lartical, state reptile that was superior to treatment of the topic online OR offline. And I'm not even saying it's all that great. Just I know what are the alternativez! TCO (talk) 21:57, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
- Web page layout 101: Never put links to other websites in a prominent place. Never beg people to leave your site. External links should be lastest of the laststest last. If there is a !vote on this topic somewhere, please ping me. "See Also" should be immediately below the Notes. – Ling.Nut 00:38, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- TCO started a thread at the Village Pump, which has been so far resoundingly defeated, and should have been more appropriately placed at the talk page of WP:LAYOUT, where it would have been equally defeated but without wasting so many editors' time. TCO, yes, my patience for this sort of thing, and you taking up talk pages with unnecessary chatter, is stretched. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:43, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
A. Well at least they would be together then.
B. Blogs link out all the time. Get over ya walled garden AOL 1994 mindset.
C. I read your RFA and you needed to tighten up. :)
TCO (talk) 00:43, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- Blogs can go toss themselves. "Tighten up" what the hell does that mean? Wake me up when you have two MAs, a PhD, and five FAs. I am off-wiki for personal reasons; hope to return in several months. As for walled garden 1994, I dunno, it's difficult to reply to... such an ... interesting... comment. – Ling.Nut 00:54, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
Everything is connected!!!!
Was really intrigued that the same photo that I slimed out of gaseous diffusion, for use in fluorine, cause of Uf6, was ALSO being used in Manhattan project that is rolling through. Then in Californium, it mentions a metallocene...which of course made me thing of the dustup we have over rhodocene. Really, very interesting, the fast connections. I am trying to incite someone to work up an FA on the poison leaf plant, one of the few natural producers of a fluorine compound. Fascinating...and this is with minimal effort.TCO (talk) 01:31, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
- TCO, could you please stop filling this page with off-topic nonsense? User talk pages would be more appropriate for many of your posts, and some of us are busy and don't appreciate the distraction. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:38, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
RfC on minimum prep-time for main-page blurbs
Dear colleagues, I've started an RfC here to measure support for a proposal that blurbs for the three featured-content sections on the main page be posted for community input at least 24 hours ahead of the deadline for cascade-protection. Your input is welcome. Tony (talk) 11:16, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Citations for every sentence?
I apologize in advance if this topic has been addressed elsewhere/before. It has been suggested to me that using a citation at the end of every paragraph is not sufficient for articles seeking FA status, and that every sentence should be cited, even if all the information in a paragraph comes from the same source(s). Does this match the consensus view of other FAC reviewers?
If a citation for every single sentence is now (or will soon become) the standard for FA-quality articles, then there is a very good chance that I will retire from Wikipedia.
Thanks in advance for your comments. Scartol • Tok 22:07, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- It does not match my view. A citation can be assumed to cover all the sentences between it and the prior citation. I know some editors like to cite every sentence, and I don't object to them doing that, but there is no requirement to do so as far as I know. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:09, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- No way. That is exactly how I do referencing, by having one at the end of block of text I got the information from. --♫ Hurricanehink (talk) 22:12, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- The idea that every sentence needs to be cited is about as silly an idea as silly ideas get. It won't happen Scartol, and FA definitely doesn't require it. Malleus Fatuorum 22:14, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- Piotr has been tying to push that notion for several months now, there is no consensus for it, and he should be discouraged from continuing the disruption, via block if necessary. You should not have to ask the question because one editor is pushing an agenda for which he has not gained consensus anywhere. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:02, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
I know this is hard...since Wikipediots want RULES, but I would use your brain and try to consider outside experience. If you have 3 sources for a para, leave them at the end. It satisfies verifiability, helps someone looking for info, and they can just disaggregate what covers what. If you have 12 sources for a para (and I have, see painted turtle, then you are better off showing what coveres what (otherwise, you expect the reader to pull 12 sources, not 3, to find the verficiation or extra info covering what he cares about). TCO (talk) 22:15, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) "Wikipediots" is a Wikipedia Review term of abuse, probably best confined to WR. Malleus Fatuorum 22:20, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
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As I said at the review in question, citation density is not part of the FA criteria and any oppose based only on that is likely to be disregarded. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:19, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
One of the problems with the current citation system is the not uncommon situation where you add a source for a multiple-sentence paragraph at the end of the paragraph, but someone later comes along and adds a new sentence and citation in the middle of that paragraph. It can confuse things dreadfully. The only real way to combat that is to add (invisible) HTML comments to say that the citation for a particular sentence is given later, or to explicitly state in the citation which bits of text it is supporting. Neither are particularly satisfactory. I do know I try and be very careful when adding further text to sourced text, as it can end up messing up the citation location and logic, but sometimes you have to make changes (e.g. updates for recent events or recent publications), and sometimes you don't have access to the sources to check how best to make the change, or the original editor is not around to help make the changes. It can be a conundrum. In my view, the vital thing to look for when reviewing (or writing) articles is whether the citations have been logically placed so that a reader can understand where the information has come from and what sources to consult if they want to verify things. Carcharoth (talk) 23:54, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think for the sort of article that I want to write (element, major animal, "core" topics) that just doing the every sentence thing is much easier. I say this not meaning any harshness towards those who have topics that don't need it. Nor do I want to be seen as a wimp. Just I've come around to it. Just like I've evolved to the view that it is better to draft most of a new article in sandbox vice fighting with the "bully-set" admins over the let us build the house debate.TCO (talk) 00:03, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- You make a very good point Carcharoth, the answer to which is that those who don't know what they're doing ought not to be editing Wikipedia articles. But of course that's politically unacceptable, as anyone can edit. Malleus Fatuorum 00:26, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- Everyone started at zero. People need to learn how to do things. There's a whole mindset behind WP:V which is excruciatingly non-obvious to the casual editor, or the newcomer. Shameless plug: User:Ling.Nut/V-challenged. – Ling.Nut 01:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- You're absolutely right, but there's surely an emerging problem here that needs to be addressed. Not everyone can write, although anyone can edit. Malleus Fatuorum 01:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- If we got rid of the "anyone can edit" bit, we wouldn't be Wikipedia any more; we'd be Sanger-pedia. That will never happen... I know I haven't done squat to help anyone or anything in months (well, I did fix one list), and I apologize for that. But the point is, bitching about the low quality of our editors (I agree many are low quality, of course) accomplishes absolutely nothing other than to make yourself more and more unhappy. Find a Clueless One who is, by some miracle, at the same time both responsible and teachable. Then teach. Then take satisfaction in the idea that you have turned some dross into gold (but again, I concede all accusations that I am not eating my own dog food... in fact, I am so burned out on the idiots that my plan is to do nothing but write, if/when I get the ability to be genuinely active again – no content review, nothing else). – Ling.Nut 01:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- A noble but ultimately unworkable idea. But here's a more radical one: why not grade editors as to the articles they're allowed to edit? Beginners can edit stubs, more experienced editors can edit start articles, those with a few GAs can edit GAs and so on. OK, I know it'll never happen, but it exactly mirrors what happens in the real world. You can't teach what you haven't eaten. Malleus Fatuorum 01:46, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- If we got rid of the "anyone can edit" bit, we wouldn't be Wikipedia any more; we'd be Sanger-pedia. That will never happen... I know I haven't done squat to help anyone or anything in months (well, I did fix one list), and I apologize for that. But the point is, bitching about the low quality of our editors (I agree many are low quality, of course) accomplishes absolutely nothing other than to make yourself more and more unhappy. Find a Clueless One who is, by some miracle, at the same time both responsible and teachable. Then teach. Then take satisfaction in the idea that you have turned some dross into gold (but again, I concede all accusations that I am not eating my own dog food... in fact, I am so burned out on the idiots that my plan is to do nothing but write, if/when I get the ability to be genuinely active again – no content review, nothing else). – Ling.Nut 01:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- You're absolutely right, but there's surely an emerging problem here that needs to be addressed. Not everyone can write, although anyone can edit. Malleus Fatuorum 01:23, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- Everyone started at zero. People need to learn how to do things. There's a whole mindset behind WP:V which is excruciatingly non-obvious to the casual editor, or the newcomer. Shameless plug: User:Ling.Nut/V-challenged. – Ling.Nut 01:14, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- It is a bitching idea. But the way to get there is step by step. First the camel gets his nose in the tent. Eventually you are bedding down with him. :-) Start with something simple like no new articles for IPs. Then NNA for non-confirmed. Then automatically semiprotect all FAs. You get the idea...it is a process. You might be surprised (with time) how that changes the culture from a constant turnover of 17 year olds, plus the arb/admin waste of time. There is a huge mass of people out there with brains who could contribute to Wiki, but don't. If the project started to grow up...stand the fuck back!TCO (talk) 02:01, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- Counterproductive. Imagine Professor Li, an Ivy League expert in Ancient Chinese literature, reading a substandard article on the same and being so profoundly moved by a generous desire to dispel the misconceptions about her field that she actually gets a user name and edits. But she can't. Counterproductive. – Ling.Nut 01:51, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- Instead we get him sticking something in as an IP, without a real source, and getting reverted by some shithead on his way to RFA. What you have described is a self defeating proposition like in Tunnel in the Sky. You need to climb up the ttree and put your shirt on it, and also throw wet branches on a fire.TCO (talk) 02:00, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- TCO: One of the reasons my RfA failed is because folks accused me of being opaque. Your post is far more opaque than any of mine. – Ling.Nut 02:08, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- Malleus: Ummm, yeah, change is slow. You need to 1) Come up with a solution that has some actual chance of passing 2) Lobby extensively via back-channel emails etc. to get a core of people to agree with your proposal 3) Spring it on the community full-blown and with a core of... you know. – Ling.Nut 02:08, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- The splattering of ref tags (often repeated) at the end of every or most sentences is a big problem. I've heard that it's encouraged at GA, so someone, probably me, will have to go there and point out that this is really unacceptable, unless there's contentious or highly technical information that needs dense tagging. I've been reviewing DYKs recently, and the practice of ref-tag splattering is rife. Fortunately, they have a rule that says typically one ref tag per paragraph is enough. There's little understanding of the retroactive nature of ref tags. Tony (talk) 17:50, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- I can vouch for the fact that it's not all encouraged at GA. Malleus Fatuorum 19:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- Such a bean-counting approach to citations has been strongly discouraged at GA since 2007: the GA criteria reflect this, as do all my contributions to the GA process since I encountered it in 2007. Geometry guy 21:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- I can vouch for the fact that it's not all encouraged at GA. Malleus Fatuorum 19:40, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- The splattering of ref tags (often repeated) at the end of every or most sentences is a big problem. I've heard that it's encouraged at GA, so someone, probably me, will have to go there and point out that this is really unacceptable, unless there's contentious or highly technical information that needs dense tagging. I've been reviewing DYKs recently, and the practice of ref-tag splattering is rife. Fortunately, they have a rule that says typically one ref tag per paragraph is enough. There's little understanding of the retroactive nature of ref tags. Tony (talk) 17:50, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- Not needed or wanted at GAN or FAC. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm pleased to hear this. So it's only at DYK that there needs to be pressure on nominators. DYK is the breeding ground for bad habits, and the seeding ground for future FA nominators. Tony (talk) 03:48, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think that DYK has much to answer for, yes. Malleus Fatuorum 18:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- Much maybe, but not everything. The DYK rules say 1 ref per para is the minimum (not necessarily at the end), which matches FAR requirements - ie people will cite "unreferenced paragraphs" as a reason to de-feature. Johnbod (talk) 19:08, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- That doesn't match the FA criteria at all. That some reviewers may choose to try and insist on at least one citation per paragraph is neither here nor there, as they're in general wrong; it depends entirely on what's in the paragraphs. Malleus Fatuorum 19:11, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- Much maybe, but not everything. The DYK rules say 1 ref per para is the minimum (not necessarily at the end), which matches FAR requirements - ie people will cite "unreferenced paragraphs" as a reason to de-feature. Johnbod (talk) 19:08, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- I think that DYK has much to answer for, yes. Malleus Fatuorum 18:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- I'm pleased to hear this. So it's only at DYK that there needs to be pressure on nominators. DYK is the breeding ground for bad habits, and the seeding ground for future FA nominators. Tony (talk) 03:48, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- Not needed or wanted at GAN or FAC. Jezhotwells (talk) 22:17, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I see and have written an article where the issue was not so much refs at every sentence but refs at every clause. Moving the refs to sentence end, I think, makes a big improvement in readability. Usually, there is some logical relation of the clauses (comparison, or causation or whatever) and the mid-sentence refs divert from that. I find after the period, it is not such a disruptor.TCO (talk) 04:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
The issue of overcitation has been brought up before, usually in the FAC nominations themselves. Wikipedia:Peer review/Missy Higgins/archive1, Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/45th Infantry Division (United States)/archive 1, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Parks and Recreation (season 1)/archive2, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Rio de Janeiro bid for the 2016 Summer Olympics/archive1, Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Peer review/Harriet Tubman, Wikipedia_talk:Good_article_nominations/Archive_14#Too_many_references.2Fcitations, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Excel Saga/archive1, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of British Airways/archive1, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bog turtle/archive1 among others. Perhaps it's time to add a FAC criterion that the number of references in a FAC should not exceed the number of sentences (or items) in said FAC. Firsfron of Ronchester 07:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
image layout decisions
Responding to Sandy (comment made in edit summary at A330)
1. The MOS does not require image alternation. And it certainly doesn't help reduce crowding. The opposite, it can squeeze text or mess with section headers.
2. The MOS does not require thumb size default width. Thumb width images are usually too tiny and the rationale, that a couple hundred Wiki users have set the preferences makes no sense, since the vast majority of users and ALL of the general readers have not. And normal page design would have a bigger image shown.
TCO (talk) 14:56, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'm assuming you mean Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Airbus A330/archive3, but I can't find any comment by Sandy regarding images. Also, unless you mean this to be a general conversation on images in FACs, it may be better to post this either on the Airbus FAC page or on Sandy's talk page. Dana boomer (talk) 20:39, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
Her comment was within the edit summary. I do mean it to be a general discussion of the requirement for articles in general. Or even better, what is the best way to display information for readers. I don't think Sandy's talk is appropriate as this is not an issue of some general editorial preference of an editor on an article not in FAC. I'm not concerned about the one article especially. But want to have a general discussion, especially on the alternating.TCO (talk) 20:46, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- I have to admit I rarely read the guides and tend rather to look at what appears to be convention in other FACs. Two conventions regarding image placement stand out: one to alternate images, the other that in portraits of people the subject should "face inwards", towards the centre of the article; you can extend this to the "sharp end" of hardware like planes and ships "facing inwards" as well. However these two conventions are frequently at odds with each other, and you'll rarely get it perfect. Also the wider PC screens we have now make it more practical to have the first few images on the left otherwise they can get bunched below the infobox on the right. I recently went through a number of FACs I nominated pre-widescreen to alter the placement of some images to allow for this but, again, it's not an exact science because there are many variations in screens/resolutions. So I tend to treat each set of images on a case-by-case basis when reviewing, and not go in with hard-and-fast rules on placement. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 21:48, 27 June 2011 (UTC)
- Here are a couple MOS discussions, both on that the "rule" is not a firm one, and also on general considerations of efficacy and how all these rules interact (eyes in, alternating, not below section header, within section, don't reverse a face, numbers and bullets, etc.) [1], [2]. TCO (talk) 02:30, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- My screen is not as large as yours, friends! ... I've seen the "eyes in" bit on some guideline or other (probably linked above). I vastly prefer alternating L-R placement, and it only squeezes text if the images are too big and too close together. Many FACs love their images so much that they make them HUGE, and that is another thing I am not keen on. I find it hard to believe that any Internet users would not know that clicking the image would do something (they can click the img to see it larger if they like). Lastly, literally four years ago I saw a guideline that said that images should be at the TOP of a section rather than the bottom. I hate hate hate it when people think it is appealing to place an image at the bottom of a section so that it will appear in the top of the one below it, but I have never been able to find that guideline again, so I guess I have no ammunition on that score. I think following FAC practice is legitimate. If someone wants to put their foot down and insist that all imgs be on the right, they can. – Ling.Nut 04:54, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
Maybe...but I did not realize you could click Wiki pages and get the bigger picture until I started editing here. Would not underestimate the difference in our typical reader, versus the people here who edit and are more computer savvy. Also, look how other sites do images. My main beef (among several) with the alternation is the clash with section headers if you left justify an image. I don't care about shoving the edit box to the side, on the right. But on the left, you are really screwing up the readability if you break section headers with the pictures. And then, it really IS good form on more technical topics to use frequent section headers. One can read books on technical writing (or the USG [excellent] guidance on plain writing) for why this helps, but would think it would make sense that a more "difficult" and non-narrative text benefits from clear, overt, structure. But...I'm a newbie...so don't bite me. ;-) TCO (talk) 05:55, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure I know what you mean by "...on the left, you are really screwing up the readability if you break section headers with the pictures". Could you show me an example? A diff to a previous version of some article, perhaps? As for section headers, yes I tend to appreciate them.. – Ling.Nut 07:35, 28 June 2011 (UTC)
- I think the time has come for the MoS and WP:IUP to provide more explicit advice about image size and location. Left-side images, unless well away from other images (and bullets, infoboxes and other visual features) can cause significant problems with text sandwiching and the relationship with other images. Second, it's often better to place all image syntaxes at the top of each section, for similar reasons. The default thumbnail size, largely through my efforts, was raised 49% last year throughout WMF projects, from 180 to 220px. There was considerable support for 240px, but we presented a cautious line to the Foundation developers. Very often, 240px for right-side pics is better, based on how detailed they are, there resolution, and their importance. Around the same time, with much support from Slim Virgin and other editors, the rules that appeared to frown on the upsizing of images according to editorial judgement were changed to a neutral stance. Personally, I try to keep the left-side of pics in a neat vertical line, although this is not always possible. Finally, I believe there's not enough use of centered, big (500px plus) pics, particularly for detail-rich maps. No one's saying to lash out and do this indiscriminately, but it's an option. Tony (talk) 17:44, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Discussion at AN/I regarding User:Tony1
I have begun a discussion at AN/I regarding certain conduct of Tony1 which I consider objectionable. Link here. Comments welcome.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:03, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- Just a note to say that I regard Wehwalt's conduct as objectionable. I also want to flag that SandyGeorgia has put the whole process in a difficult position in her personal attack and smearing on my talk page. This essentially means that she must recuse from any nom I review. Tony (talk) 06:17, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- Tony, remember that editors typically put in a ton of hours getting an article ready for FAC, so a strong oppose from a regular like yourself may, understandably generate an equally strong reaction. It puts the moderator in an awkward position, because if she/he were to step in immediately and comment on the oppose, it may seem like intereference in the FAC process, which should be allowed to flow on its own for the most part. What is really needed is for a third, uninvolved party to immediately step in, give an opinion on the basis for the oppose, and start mediating a way forward, even if there is possibly some personal animosity involved (which I'm reserving judgement on in this case). It's my fault as much as anyone elses, because I should participate more in the FAC forum and have seen this coming and tried to help head it off before it blew up.
- Both of you (Wehwalt and Tony) put a lot of time and effort into improving this project where it really counts, in article quality. I know you both suffer for your work (your Wikipedia work, that is), because I have suffered for mine. The big picture, of course, is the proverbial "cooperate and graduate", i.e. (for those of you unfamiliar with this phrase), let's work together to accomplish what we're here for, to produce the best articles on certain topics that exist anywhere on the Internet. Cla68 (talk) 07:20, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- Good points, and this should be sortable with kindness by all parties. Wehwalt, for what it's worth, I apologise for the personal component of my original post at the nom page. An apology from you would be welcome concerning your total revert of my good-faith work at the TFA blurb (bound to put any editor offside, even before you spat the dummy and went to ANI).
But Sandy has really damaged FAC, herself, and me, by walking into my talk page and posting a huge statement that impugns my honesty, and implies that she will in future regard my reviews with prejudice (please read her words). It's unconscionable that a delegate should publicly humiliate a reviewer with such innuendo and unfounded, illogical inference. It leaves me still confused. She should withdraw her post or accept that she will need to recuse in a good number of FAC noms. Tony (talk) 07:42, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- As somebody who has no particular dog in this fight, I did what you requested: I read SandyGeorgia's words on your talk page. If there is anything that can be said about them, it is that her message on your talk page is an obvious intervention. The fact that your reviews give even the appearance of impropriety (and sadly, your actions on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Indian Head eagle/archive1 do give that impression) should be of grave concern to you, and the simple action of Sandy presenting her concerns about it does not in any way warrant her recusing from FACs in which you participate. Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 09:14, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- Good points, and this should be sortable with kindness by all parties. Wehwalt, for what it's worth, I apologise for the personal component of my original post at the nom page. An apology from you would be welcome concerning your total revert of my good-faith work at the TFA blurb (bound to put any editor offside, even before you spat the dummy and went to ANI).
- Both of you (Wehwalt and Tony) put a lot of time and effort into improving this project where it really counts, in article quality. I know you both suffer for your work (your Wikipedia work, that is), because I have suffered for mine. The big picture, of course, is the proverbial "cooperate and graduate", i.e. (for those of you unfamiliar with this phrase), let's work together to accomplish what we're here for, to produce the best articles on certain topics that exist anywhere on the Internet. Cla68 (talk) 07:20, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I don't support reviewers making directors recuse. (I do think that is reasonable for an author if he has clashed with a director.) I would just make your reviews and then move on, Tony. When you make good reviews it has an effect over time even if an individual editor does not always implement a recc or if a director accepts/rejects differently than you would have. It's impossible for a writer to satisfy all reviewers (they can easily conflict amongst selves, or the author's best judgment for the article). It's impossible for directors to get unanimous accept or unanimous reject opinions from the reviewers. Gotta look at the war, not the battle. It's a process...TCO (talk) 12:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- Titoxd, "and the simple action of Sandy presenting her concerns about it"—oh please. I can't believe you're that naive. Read her comments properly and you'll see that it's the continuation of a self-serving hate-campaign she has been conducting against me ever since I started writing Featured Content at The Signpost. Her accusations are just not based on evidence. She is playing nasty, dirty politics, and it needs to stop, now. I do not agree with a thing you wrote. TCO, it is nothing less than overt corruption if SandyGeorgia does not recuse from nominations I review, after her scandalous statements on my page.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony1 (talk • contribs) 13:04, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I have a dog, in a sense; Sandy and Tony are probably my biggest influences in reviewing. Much of what I comment on comes from what I saw them say at FACs when I was a newcomer. It's a great shame to me that this is happening. I don't comment on here much, but in this case there are several things I feel the need to say.
- Tony, you are the finest prose reviewer on this website and your recent absence has been a blow to FAC. As I said, you've been a major influence for me. At the same time (going back to the original comment), if a reviewer says a review is "pointy" for one reason or another, the director/delegate is going to keep that in mind. It just doesn't look good. I don't know how the statement was meant, but it didn't come off well.
- I honestly don't think Sandy meant to say that all of your reviews are now automatically suspect, although that's how it sounded. I do think she meant that if one reviews FACs from editors they are outwardly friendly with (or have disagreements with), she would factor that into her decision-making. It's harsh-sounding, but the reality is that there are plenty of situations where she takes different factors into account. If there's an article that gets four or five two-line supports from a group of editors, but a respected reviewer like you finds many issues, she's going to discount those supports. What if you give a negative review to one of Wehwalt's articles after everything that's gone on recently? It's a difficult situation for any delegate.
- Speaking of that, Karanacs and Laser brain are now in a tough position. They surely know about the comments, and they know how good a reviewer you are. It's not going to be easy for them to make a decision. When you become a director or delegate at a process like this, it gives you a different perspective than as a reviewer, where you really are solely focused on the content in question. As a director/delegate, there's a greater awareness of everything involved with the reviewing that occurs. It's holistic, in a way.
- Let's say Sandy does recuse from the articles you review. What will this do to FAC, considering that Sandy is by far the most active closer? Will we need another delegate? Will Karanacs and Laser be active enough that a fourth delegate isn't needed? The whole situation is a can of worms. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 17:42, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Picking up on what Cla68 said above, I did try and step in on Tony's talk page and make him see that he needed to withdraw his comments, and he did strike them, and eventually remove them, and has now apologised. The dispute seems to have moved on now to being one between Tony and Sandy (which has been going on for a while). I do think Tony has a point about the Signpost work he does and Sandy's reaction to that. I've been following that dispute for some time, and if there are problems there, those need to be resolved and not left to fester. Oh, and one more point. Can we have a bit less of "you are the finest prose reviewer on this website"? I agree Tony is a fine prose reviewer, but it never helps to elevate anyone to a pinnacle like that, as it puts an unfair amount of pressure on them, and there are many other fine prose reviewers - no-one should ever feel they have to review prose and that they are the best person to do something. There should always be someone else able to do the same job to about the same level. Carcharoth (talk) 12:09, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Objectivity, please
FAC instructions to reviewers say that opposition to an article's promotion should be registered by "Oppose" or "Object". I think reviewers should stick to those formulations; further elaboration, e.g. "Strong oppose", implies a degree of emotional subjectivity in the review. This emphasis could subconciously affect other reviewers, who might think "Blimey, this must be bad!" before they've read the article. FAC criticism should always be geared to improving articles, not to the venting of feelings. (The same applies with "Strong support", by the way). Brianboulton (talk) 14:47, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- You've got a fair point that we should avoid bringing emotions into it, but at the same time, I think it's reasonable that reviewers give an indication of the severity of the problem. That is, it is helpful if a reviewer says "X is a serious problem. Y and Z are minor problems." That way, the article authors known which problems to prioritize, and myself/Sandy/Karanacs know which objections to pay the most attention to when reviewing the nominations. Raul654 (talk) 15:06, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- So, what do you do if you Oppose strongly? I haven't read even one word of Tony's Oppose nor the relevant FAC page, and I don't have time to do so. Please do not interpret my remarks as being directly relvant to that case in any way... But... FAC is like this: Opposes should have the right to stand, but they don't. I should have the right to say, I Oppose, and this is so far from the relvant standards that in no way is there anything you can do to make me change my mind this time around. Concrete example: An article with many many refs. Many cites. Let's say it has 250 cites that come from... mmm... 40 references or so. Upon review, I find two clear-cut cases of copyvio. At that point, the entire nom is useless in my eyes, because the nominators themselves have lost all credibility. They are either clueless, or worse. They need to show me that they have reviewed every single one of the refs/cites, from 1 to 250, before I will eyeball the article again. Now, what will happen if I try to say that? The niceness patrol will tell me I am wrong. The nominator will begin borderline badgering, with notes on my talk page, and whiny comments on WT:FAC. Etc. The playing field is not level. I have heard folks complain that the reviewers have too much power etc, but the truth is kinda the opposite. The format + the influence of the niceness patrol places pressure on people to work to "improve it til it passess". Just my thoughts! I have only intermittent access at present so... – Ling.Nut 15:49, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- I generally dislike the intensification of "support" and "oppose". I use "Strong oppose", reluctantly, only when a nominator appears to be ignoring my review points, which is the case on one live nomination. However, I see value in "Leaning towards ..." and "Weak ...". These options make it a bit more than just a binary choice, and are useful for Karanacs or Laser Brain when they're weighing up the balance. Tony (talk) 17:34, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
Per Raul, above, writing "strong oppose" reveals the reviewer's depth of feeling but it does not necessarily indicate the severity of problems requiring attention and does nothing to promote rational discourse. I don't imagine for a moment that delegates are influenced, but as I say, passing reviewers might be, subconsciously. I don't accept Ling's version of how FAC works, and if there is a "niceness patrol" would he please introduce me to it? Brianboulton (talk) 22:27, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- I agree with you Brian; it adds nothing in my eyes to Support in the strongest possible terms, as the acknowledged Master of the Known Universe other than to reveal the reviewer's mindset. I very much doubt if I have ever voted in such a way, as my assumption has always been that my oppose (or support) will be evaluated the same no matter how much rhetoric precedes or follows it. Malleus Fatuorum 22:35, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- I believe someone should only truly "oppose" an article when it is clearly irredeemable and must be completely overhauled. For everything else the reviewer should first make comments and ask for improvements or corrections. Simply writing "oppose" before even giving a chance to the nominator to correct any issue is unfair. This move might even influence other possible reviewers of either ignoring the article because they might believe that it would be a loss of time to review it or merely oppose it too just for the sake of doing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lecen (talk • contribs) 18:03, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- That's completely impractical. Nothing is ever "irredeemable" given infinite time and effort. Articles presented at FAC (or GAN) are expected to be at or close to meeting the relevant criteria. The review processes aren't first aid centres for crock articles. Malleus Fatuorum 23:23, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
I just went and changed my two strong supports to be mild-mannered ones after hearing what Brian said. Personally, I think "strong oppose" is over the top. The oppose is enough of a blow.
I find people here sometimes needlessly harsh and without an aspect of sympathy to the writer (note, I'm not saying A BIT to lower standards). In adademia, even with anonymity, I'm not used to some of the harsh tone. Sure...say it should not be published. Give the reasons. But even then, I sense a collegiatlity and a desire for good science to advance and works to be redeemed and improved (when a reviewere recommends not publishing).
It is not only a "sortfall of reviewers", but that this place will dry up if authors are not bringing stuff forward, are not learning to do what is required. Even if you have to shitcan some newbie's submission rather quickly, I would still realize that that can be a useful addition to the stable. The mushrooms and lemurs are very compliant. But we need to be getting more than that. It is both about proper filtration of the water AND about pumping.TCO (talk) 23:48, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- Malleus Fatuorum, that's what I meant: someone should only oppose in exceptional and rare circumstances. The reviewer should (in fact, must!) attempt first to discuss with the nominator and help him improve the article. --Lecen (talk) 23:55, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't agree. I often see articles that would would be better taken out of the FAC spotlight and worked on elsewhere, and brought back when they're ready. In those cases I will oppose immediately. Malleus Fatuorum 23:59, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
- But this is what I meant! In the rare and exceptional cases when, for example, an article is clearly below FA standards and should be completely reworked, the reviewer should oppose it. The real problem is that I saw reviewers oppose very good articles without even bothering to explain exactly what was wrong. And once you ask them what is wrong, the issues raised can be clearly fixed. Why oppose then, when he should have suggested improvements first? --Lecen (talk) 00:04, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've never seen a reviewer oppose without explaining why. Do you have any examples? Malleus Fatuorum 01:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- This one [4] is an example. I had no idea of what he was talking about. The he corrected himself. [5] He did not even bother to tell the nominator (in this case, I) what was wrong before he gave his vote. This is something that should be avoided. The reviewer should attempt to discuss and help the nominator. --Lecen (talk) 01:16, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- I've never seen a reviewer oppose without explaining why. Do you have any examples? Malleus Fatuorum 01:01, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- But this is what I meant! In the rare and exceptional cases when, for example, an article is clearly below FA standards and should be completely reworked, the reviewer should oppose it. The real problem is that I saw reviewers oppose very good articles without even bothering to explain exactly what was wrong. And once you ask them what is wrong, the issues raised can be clearly fixed. Why oppose then, when he should have suggested improvements first? --Lecen (talk) 00:04, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- I don't agree. I often see articles that would would be better taken out of the FAC spotlight and worked on elsewhere, and brought back when they're ready. In those cases I will oppose immediately. Malleus Fatuorum 23:59, 1 July 2011 (UTC)
If I may disagree with Brian, I find a strong oppose useful for when an article is clearly not ready for FAC. I use this as a way of telling the delegates that something should be quickly closed. I've also used "weak" occasionally for when my feelings one way or the other aren't strong. Again, the intent is to help the delegates weigh my opinions. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 17:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- The delegates should be (and I'm sure are) weighing your opinions by whatever rationale you produce in their support, not the number of adjectives that precede your vote. Malleus Fatuorum 18:15, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
Two (prosaic) things
- John McCauley (RAAF officer) has been renamed John McCauley and I notice the associated FAC link has gone dead on WP:FACL, though it still seems all right elsewhere -- what the process to take care of it on WP:FACL?
- I've fixed it. The process is, unless you know how to do it correctly, please don't move a FAC without calling the attention of a delegate so all the pieces can be corrected, and as with any move, you should check "what links here" so all the bookeeping can be cleaned up. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:50, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- Is the clause An editor is allowed to be the sole nominator of only one article at a time hard and fast? I notice at least one sole nominator has two FACs running now, and if we are permitted more than one solo nom simultaneously, I have another all ready to go in addition to my one that's open already. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:20, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- As far as I know (and I'm just now catching up after several days), only Hawkeye has more than one up, he was granted permission when his first had multiple supports and appeared ready for promotion but no independent review had been done ... then close paraphrasing was found in his first nom, so it's still open (and his second nom will need to be checked for that). The permission to put up a second was granted because it appeared his first article was ready for promotion: in fact, it was not, and no, this exception isn't routinely granted. John McCauley still has image issues to be sorted-- you might ping User:Jappalang. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- In response to the second question: without checking the specifics of the case you mention, you can ask an FAC delegate for exemption from the one-at-a-time rule. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:22, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- It can be very irritating, just when one is bracing oneself for TFA vandalism, to have the blurb or article rewritten on a whim. This recently happened to me with Holy Thorn Reliquary a few hours before it hit the main page, and I did not see it until it was up, nor, as a non-admin, could I get a (partial) reversion until halfway through the day. The text had been through FAC and the blurb had sat on TFA requests for about 3 weeks with several comments not raising the point, which was not one of style - it was felt the reference to a British Museum exhibition was "unduly promotional" - bollocks imo. People who hang around WP:ERRORS would get a better reception if they proposed or made their changes at an earlier point in the process - easily done for TFA and DYK. You do not say why you feel your changes should be privileged over the main writer's. Raul's practice is in line with the general preference given to "local editors" in many areas where there is a balance of opposing views. Johnbod (talk) 16:21, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- {{ec} WP:OAS. I didn't read Wehwalt's comment as implying you need "Canadian permission", but as a suggestion that Canadians are more knowledgeable on the topic and/or would be interested in changes made to the article (disclaimer: I'm Canadian). The interpersonal disputes at play here do need to be resolved, but this probably isn't the best forum for that. Your initial post to Wehwalt's FAC was unfortunate; Sandy's response was I think an attempt to resolve the situation, although it seems to have only inflamed the issue more. The ResMar issue, while also unfortunate, has little or nothing to do with FAC and is best raised elsewhere (no offence intended to ResMar). The "primary author" issue is a non-starter, frankly - the primary author is usually the person best placed to nominate the article, to deal with the topic and the sources, and deferring to them makes sense in most cases. IMO the whole blow-up between you and Wehwalt is a clash of egos and could have been avoided, but that's neither here nor there; I would argue also for Sandy withdrawing her post from your page, not because it's necessarily "threatening", but because it's clearly not helping anything, and I would argue for you withdrawing from Wehwalt's FAC and striking your request for Sandy's recusal on every FAC you comment on for the same reason. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:25, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- Um, not a chance of my withdrawing the technical issues I've raised at the FAC. Not a hope in hell. They need to be addressed as normal, unless you favour passing FA nominations that are faulty. Sandy cannot possibly be involved in any FAC I review, given the things she has said on my talk page. As I said, I'm on the verge of regarding FAC as an illegitimate forum, for the corruption that is evident and the promotion of behaviour that breaches a Pillar. I certainly question SandyGeorgia's legitimacy as a delegate. Tony (talk) 16:39, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
... aided and abetted by FAC delegate User:SandyGeorgia, from whom he has received succour via back-channelling. Tony, I tend to ignore these tantrums of yours, but if you state one more mistruth about me in particular and FAC in general, it will not go ignored. There has been no, ZERO, ZILCH backchannel communication on any aspect of this matter that has come to my attention. That is one aspect where you are as dramatically wrong as you are on the rest, but one mistruth that I will not tolerate as it compromises FAC. Knock off the childish tantrums that occur whenever you encounter disagreement, and knock off the story that I'm upset that you write about featured content for The Signpost, which is also a gross misrepresentation of your behaviors that led to this problem. Anyone who disrupts FAC is treated equally, and asking a delegate to recuse when they have had to call you out for blatant disruption is ridiculous (I was relieved to see that you apologized to Wehwalt, but your subsequent posts nullify the sincerity of that apology). I look forward to your return to your objective prose reviews, without personalization of issues. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:00, 2 July 2011 (UTC)
- Self-serving rubbish, which demonstrates the corrupt system this has become. People who want to conspire by back-channelling should simply not talk about it to anyone if they don't want complaints. You and your groupies are the disrupters. Tony (talk) 01:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- Tony, Sandy has already stated that she has no knowledge of backchannel communications; even if you don't believe her, what good does it do insist that she "conspired" without any supporting evidence? You're both going overboard with this dispute. The idea here is the improvement of articles, which I think has been lost in this fracas.
- Getting back to your original point about TFA and FAC fermenting article ownership, I think it's pretty undeniable that's correct. I certainly don't work on FACs just to see them wither away due to careless editing from drive-by editors who don't know anything about the subject. Do you have an alternate solution? Firsfron of Ronchester 04:45, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- Self-serving rubbish, which demonstrates the corrupt system this has become. People who want to conspire by back-channelling should simply not talk about it to anyone if they don't want complaints. You and your groupies are the disrupters. Tony (talk) 01:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ownership is needed and important in the getting it ready for FAC stage, also. For a high profile article like Nixon or Tiger or Carbon, there are likely to be years of questionable edits. Not just cruft or bad links, but bad information, refs that don't really support the content, sentence-length copyvios, etc. The article needs and benefits from an "owner" and the process needs the nominator to take responsibility or "ownership" (meant in a GOOD WAY) for the whole shebang.TCO (talk) 05:14, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- "Caretaker" for lack of a better word. Doesn't imply ownership, but does imply a familiarity and resposibility to keep the article to snuff before and after FAC. The whole GA/FA process set is designed around this concept. --MASEM (t) 05:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- I actually like the term "caretaker" because it implies that someone is looking after an article rather than owning it. WP:OAS covers this nicely, I think. However, Tony states below that Wehwalt is now claiming a "power to veto" content in a FAC and/or TFA blurb; I don't believe the stewardship model discussed at WP:OAS gives users the exclusive power to veto content. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- "Caretaker" for lack of a better word. Doesn't imply ownership, but does imply a familiarity and resposibility to keep the article to snuff before and after FAC. The whole GA/FA process set is designed around this concept. --MASEM (t) 05:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- Ownership is needed and important in the getting it ready for FAC stage, also. For a high profile article like Nixon or Tiger or Carbon, there are likely to be years of questionable edits. Not just cruft or bad links, but bad information, refs that don't really support the content, sentence-length copyvios, etc. The article needs and benefits from an "owner" and the process needs the nominator to take responsibility or "ownership" (meant in a GOOD WAY) for the whole shebang.TCO (talk) 05:14, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- Familiarity and responsibility to keep the article "to snuff" do not involve this "power of veto" that Wehwalt is now claiming, nor the right to say who will or will not edit a blurb or a lead, and nor the right to lord it over everyone else about matters of style (about which his latest FAC nom shows a lot to be desired). Nor to demand a topic-ban for a reviewer who opposes his FAC, nor to refuse to implement the technical and stylistic issues in a review (for personal reasons). All of these Wehwalt has done over the past few days, and it is manifestly a breach of the ownership pillar. While SandyGeorgia, and I think without malice Raul and Dabomb87, support this kind of behaviour, I cannot regard FAC as legitimate. Tony (talk) 05:49, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- Tony, can you provide some diffs showing Wehwalt is claiming "power to veto" content? Firsfron of Ronchester 06:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- Nevermind; I see it here. I guess my question then becomes, why do you care if Wehwalt pulled his FA from TFA because he didn't like the blurb? It was one he worked on extensively, right? And traditionally, FAs/GAs/TFAs are nominated by the principal editors of the article. So what does it matter in the big scheme of things if your blurb for a TFA wasn't used? Firsfron of Ronchester 06:31, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- (e.c.) Sure, here are two from the section I linked to above: "Until issues between myself and Tony are resolved, I'm using my veto as principal editor on all my FAs."; and after another editor has challenged him on this assumption of veto power: "By our customs at TFA, the principal authors get that veto.". SandyGeorgia then weighs in to support the jettisoning of the anniversary Macdonald TFA (according to Wehwalt's Power of Veto); then User:Skeezix1000's plea to reinstate it is ignored. Tony (talk) 06:33, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- Nevermind; I see it here. I guess my question then becomes, why do you care if Wehwalt pulled his FA from TFA because he didn't like the blurb? It was one he worked on extensively, right? And traditionally, FAs/GAs/TFAs are nominated by the principal editors of the article. So what does it matter in the big scheme of things if your blurb for a TFA wasn't used? Firsfron of Ronchester 06:31, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
- Tony, can you provide some diffs showing Wehwalt is claiming "power to veto" content? Firsfron of Ronchester 06:22, 3 July 2011 (UTC)