Born2cycle (talk | contribs) →Unsupported change reverted: by the way |
Born2cycle (talk | contribs) →Unsupported change reverted: sounds like a list of titles that need fixing |
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**The statement should have been deleted the first time it was noticed. So far as I know that's exactly what happened. The fact that you think this is about "winning" says much about you and nothing about anyone else. The notion that a WP title that is not ambiguous with any other title on WP can never-the-less be "ambiguous" and be subject to [[WP:DISAMBIGUATION]] (whether natural or parenthetic - that's beside the point) is a view held by a minority of WP editors; not a majority, and certainly not by a community-wide [[WP:CONSENSUS]]. Just because this minority manages to cobble together a [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS]] in an occasional obscure RM discussion does not establish [[WP:CONSENSUS]] for this view. --[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 21:41, 5 February 2016 (UTC) |
**The statement should have been deleted the first time it was noticed. So far as I know that's exactly what happened. The fact that you think this is about "winning" says much about you and nothing about anyone else. The notion that a WP title that is not ambiguous with any other title on WP can never-the-less be "ambiguous" and be subject to [[WP:DISAMBIGUATION]] (whether natural or parenthetic - that's beside the point) is a view held by a minority of WP editors; not a majority, and certainly not by a community-wide [[WP:CONSENSUS]]. Just because this minority manages to cobble together a [[WP:LOCALCONSENSUS]] in an occasional obscure RM discussion does not establish [[WP:CONSENSUS]] for this view. --[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 21:41, 5 February 2016 (UTC) |
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*** I have a big pile of RMs demonstrating that under the conditions outlined, it's entirely routine for consensus to disambiguate titles like "Algerian Arab", "Blue Grey", "British White", etc., etc., etc. I have proof, you have an assertion. This dumb Bowie case is irrelevant. One editor using a guidleline line-item incorrectly doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the guideline. And it's process violative go delete something from any part of [[WP:POLICY]] just because someone tries to use it against you in a process in a way you don't agree with. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 21:55, 5 February 2016 (UTC) |
*** I have a big pile of RMs demonstrating that under the conditions outlined, it's entirely routine for consensus to disambiguate titles like "Algerian Arab", "Blue Grey", "British White", etc., etc., etc. I have proof, you have an assertion. This dumb Bowie case is irrelevant. One editor using a guidleline line-item incorrectly doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the guideline. And it's process violative go delete something from any part of [[WP:POLICY]] just because someone tries to use it against you in a process in a way you don't agree with. <span style="white-space:nowrap;font-family:'Trebuchet MS'"> — [[User:SMcCandlish|'''SMcCandlish''' ☺]] [[User talk:SMcCandlish|☏]] [[Special:Contributions/SMcCandlish|¢]] ≽<sup>ʌ</sup>ⱷ҅<sub>ᴥ</sub>ⱷ<sup>ʌ</sup>≼ </span> 21:55, 5 February 2016 (UTC) |
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****Sounds like a list of titles that need to be fixed. I best most if not all got relatively little attention and squeaked in under the radar. --[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 22:06, 5 February 2016 (UTC) |
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**{{ec}}By the way, I appreciate your !vote in support of the [[:Nothing Has Changed (album)]] → {{no redirect|Nothing Has Changed}} move [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANothing_Has_Changed_%28album%29&type=revision&diff=703492286&oldid=703300157], however it exemplifies the problem with the statement in question here. You "don't think this case is really a good application of the 'naturally ambiguous' clause in the guideline", but who is to say someone else won't think it ''is'' a good application? What is "good" anyway? To your credit, you support your view with some reasoning, but, again, it's not reasoning that has consensus support. And the statement here in the guideline does not imply the clarifications you make in your RM !vote comment anyway; it's far more open to interpretation than you seem to think it is. In particular, the phrase "inherently lacks precision" can arguably apply to almost ''any'' title. But I see no reason to disambiguate titles that "inherently lack precision" even when interpreted narrowly; if it's the most [[WP:COMMONNAME]] for that topic used in [[WP:RS]], and there is no other WP article that uses that name, it should be the title. Once you start making exceptions to that, you open Pandora's box, and endless RM discussions. --[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 22:04, 5 February 2016 (UTC) |
**{{ec}}By the way, I appreciate your !vote in support of the [[:Nothing Has Changed (album)]] → {{no redirect|Nothing Has Changed}} move [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3ANothing_Has_Changed_%28album%29&type=revision&diff=703492286&oldid=703300157], however it exemplifies the problem with the statement in question here. You "don't think this case is really a good application of the 'naturally ambiguous' clause in the guideline", but who is to say someone else won't think it ''is'' a good application? What is "good" anyway? To your credit, you support your view with some reasoning, but, again, it's not reasoning that has consensus support. And the statement here in the guideline does not imply the clarifications you make in your RM !vote comment anyway; it's far more open to interpretation than you seem to think it is. In particular, the phrase "inherently lacks precision" can arguably apply to almost ''any'' title. But I see no reason to disambiguate titles that "inherently lack precision" even when interpreted narrowly; if it's the most [[WP:COMMONNAME]] for that topic used in [[WP:RS]], and there is no other WP article that uses that name, it should be the title. Once you start making exceptions to that, you open Pandora's box, and endless RM discussions. --[[User:Born2cycle|В²C]] [[User_talk:Born2cycle#top|☎]] 22:04, 5 February 2016 (UTC) |
Revision as of 22:06, 5 February 2016
Disambiguation | ||||
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Baksan
Baksan is a disambiguation page with only four entries. One is Baksan (town), and another is Baksan (inhabited locality) which itself is a disambiguation page containing Baksan (town). This is circular and I don't see any reason for Baksan (inhabited locality) to exist. The only other entry in Baksan (inhabited locality) is a red-link and the only article that references it is Baksan (town). I think I should merge Baksan (inhabited locality) into Baksan and propose Baksan (inhabited locality) be deleted.Mb66w (talk) 05:24, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- Baksan (inhabited locality) calls itself a set index, not a dab page. Does this then entitle it to list a redlinked place such as Baksan (rural locality), which is not mentioned in the bluelinked article in its entry? If so, then there is some justification for this set index to exist. If not, then Baksan (inhabited locality) should be redirected to the dab page at Baksan (as I was about to do before I noticed it is labeled as a Set Index rather than a dab page). I've cleaned up the dab page a little. PamD 14:49, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- I agree that they should be merged. They way it's set up now is very confusing, especially since there aren't many places called "Baksan." By definition, the disambiguation page called "Baksan" should include everything known as "Baksan." Baksan (inhabited locality) is technically an WP:INCOMPDAB, even if it isn't labeled as such, and the best practice with those is to merge them with the parent dab. I'd be bold, but I'll give Ezhiki a chance to explain what's going on. -- Tavix (talk) 17:20, 22 January 2016 (UTC)
- WikiProject Russia maintains set index articles on the inhabited localities in Russia of the same name. Redlinked entries are OK on such pages, as long as they can be verified (which is not difficult to do even in absence of a source; at any rate, upon request I would gladly source any entry the veracity of which is doubted). Some of those set indices are more developed than others (the Baksan one is pretty basic, yes; the more developed ones do not resemble incomplete dabs at all and have a more obvious list structure). The number of entries on such a set index does not matter, but note that even when there are only two entries, it is usually possible to dig up a historical entry or an alternative name of a different place. But I digress.
Set indices with just two entries are not a typical scenario; usually there are dozens (and sometimes hundreds) of entries. Merging them all into a corresponding disambiguation page is seldom practical (in this regard, they are not unlike the set indices listing people by last/first name—the dab simply links to it, and that's that). I do agree that with just two entries, as is currently the case with Baksan, merging them in is possible, although the set index still needs to be retained as there would otherwise not be a place for redlinked entries which do not meet WP:DABRL. On the procedural side of things, note also that set index articles are outside of the WikiProject Disambiguation's scope and a decision to delete them should be made either by the associated WikiProject (in this case, WikiProject Russia) or by the community consensus (via a formal AfD).
Another complication is the municipalities (Baksan Urban Okrug in this case). Baksan Urban Okrug is currently a redirect to Baksan (town), but it is nevertheless a separate, distinct entity (which includes an inhabited locality other than Baksan proper) which may have a separate article when enough material accumulates. And as a separate, although presently upmerged entity, it deserves its own entry on the corresponding disambiguation, which is why it was included there in the first place. But having that entry, of course, makes yet another link to Baksan (town) redundant, as it is already listed on the corresponding set index (which is linked to). So the setup ends up being sort of circular, but it nevertheless works well in practice: readers looking for a municipality can get to the appropriate article from the disambiguation page, and readers looking for the town can get to it either from the municipality's entry on the disambiguation page, or from the set index. Hope this helps clarify things a bit; please ping me if there are any further questions.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); January 22, 2016; 19:11 (UTC)
- WikiProject Russia maintains set index articles on the inhabited localities in Russia of the same name. Redlinked entries are OK on such pages, as long as they can be verified (which is not difficult to do even in absence of a source; at any rate, upon request I would gladly source any entry the veracity of which is doubted). Some of those set indices are more developed than others (the Baksan one is pretty basic, yes; the more developed ones do not resemble incomplete dabs at all and have a more obvious list structure). The number of entries on such a set index does not matter, but note that even when there are only two entries, it is usually possible to dig up a historical entry or an alternative name of a different place. But I digress.
Freedom of Information Act request to disambiguate
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2016 January 23#Freedom of Information Act regarding whether to turn the redirect Freedom of Information Act into a disambiguation page. Mz7 (talk) 02:00, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
Primary topic for Marc García?
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Marc García#WP:Primary topic?. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 21:41, 30 January 2016 (UTC)
Difficult disambiguation
I was working on Cowboys and Indians and am not sure of the best way to handle the last two links. The first is in Sweet Betsy from Pike - this is a reference to the 1965 album. The second is in Eric Frein - this is a reference to the "make believe game". Neither has a BLUE link nor even a RED link, so how do I fix these two articles? I don't think it makes sense to add red links in the dab page because I doubt the articles would ever be written. Mb66w (talk) 05:15, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- I delinked the album. The band is already linked. The album doesn't seem particular notable. If it were likely that an article was to be written, it could be redlines, but I see nothing worth writing about at present. The game link is more problematic. I'm not even sure the entry on the dab page is warranted as the term is not mentioned in the linked articles (although it perhaps could be with an appropriate citation. older ≠ wiser 13:45, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
- I sent the second one to wikt:cowboys and Indians. This is the dicdef sense, although we could theoretically have an article on the topic. bd2412 T 15:14, 2 February 2016 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2016
71.245.16.219 (talk) 20:46, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
- Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 21:32, 4 February 2016 (UTC)
Unsupported change reverted
Back in June the following statement was added to the opening of this page[1]:
- Disambiguation may also be applied to a title that inherently lacks precision and would be likely to confuse readers if it is not clarified, even it does not presently result in a titling conflict between two or more articles.
That's a fundamental change to the definition of disambiguation on WP, and I see no discussion about this change, which was quickly obscured by a series of additional edits. I suspect nobody noticed. This new definition adds all kinds of ambiguity to title discussions. For example, it is being used to Oppose RM's like the current one at Talk:Nothing Has Changed (album). Accordingly, I've removed it[2]. It should not be restored unless evidence of consensus support for such a fundamental change can be established. --В²C ☎ 17:14, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- "Born2cycle doesn't like it" doesn't equate to "unsupported". Seven to eight months of stability indicates support, as does WP:RM performing moves pursuant to that wording both before it was added and since. It was added because is reflects actual consensus practice on WP. See WP:POLICY: Our policies and guidelines exist to codify actual best practices, not try to force new practices or thwart existing ones that consensus actually uses. It is not a "fundamental change" to anything, other than making this page accurate reflect what we use disambiguation for.
The principal form of the disambiguation in cases like this is WP:NATURAL; if you're concerned that people are going to do a lot of unnecessary parenthetical disambiguation on this basis (which is not actually happening), I guess that's something we can talk about. But absent a showing of an actual problem, the last 3/4 of a years' stable version of the wording should remain. This wording was added for the very, exact reason that certain editors do not seem to understand what the word "disambiguation" means and how it applies here. It mean "making unambiguous" not "distinguishing between two or more present and accounted-for things"; WP just happens to to apply it to the latter sub-case 99% of the time. Not 100%. The result of the failure to recognize that the unusual case exists has result in a truly tedious amount of wasted breath at repeat nominations at RM. It's a stupid and pointless productivity drain, permanently forestalled by one simple clarification, which has worked well since last June. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:42, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
— SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 19:42, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I'm confused why this change would be necessary. Could you provide an example or two of an article title that would benefit from this clarification? -- Tavix (talk) 20:28, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Guidelines require affirmative support. Otherwise, anyone could post a page with any set of rules they want and call it a guideline, without any community input, and if no one else noticed the page, it would thereby become a guideline. bd2412 T 21:08, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- Let's get this straight. B2C is deleting guideline material to WP:WIN an RM because someone is citing it incorrectly? Seriosly? And you're going to editwar to support that behavior, without being able to articulate anything better than WP:IDONTLIKEIT? Really? Have you even read WP:CONSENSUS and [{WP:POLICY]]], and WP:LOCALCONSENSUS? Guidelines codify actual practice. Material that has stood unopposed for months and is actually used in practice has consensus unless and until proven otherwise. When something is being used in RM after RM, three editors in one page forming a WP:FACTION to undo something they don't even understand do not magically form a changed consensus, that's a local, false consensus. I don't have time to deal with this right now, but will return to it later. I've already outlined just a handful of the actual RM cases this is based on, so I'll just copy that diff URL [3]. The ironic and ridiculous thing about this is I actually supported B2C's position in the RM that's triggered this silly "consensus only exists when I understand and like the outcome" rebellion; the reliance on this provision in the guideline for the rationale against the move was wrong. We do not delete guideline wording when people mis-cite it, we tell them they're mis-citing it. Come on, people. You all know better than this. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:29, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- The statement should have been deleted the first time it was noticed. So far as I know that's exactly what happened. The fact that you think this is about "winning" says much about you and nothing about anyone else. The notion that a WP title that is not ambiguous with any other title on WP can never-the-less be "ambiguous" and be subject to WP:DISAMBIGUATION (whether natural or parenthetic - that's beside the point) is a view held by a minority of WP editors; not a majority, and certainly not by a community-wide WP:CONSENSUS. Just because this minority manages to cobble together a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS in an occasional obscure RM discussion does not establish WP:CONSENSUS for this view. --В²C ☎ 21:41, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- I have a big pile of RMs demonstrating that under the conditions outlined, it's entirely routine for consensus to disambiguate titles like "Algerian Arab", "Blue Grey", "British White", etc., etc., etc. I have proof, you have an assertion. This dumb Bowie case is irrelevant. One editor using a guidleline line-item incorrectly doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the guideline. And it's process violative go delete something from any part of WP:POLICY just because someone tries to use it against you in a process in a way you don't agree with. — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ≼ 21:55, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)By the way, I appreciate your !vote in support of the Nothing Has Changed (album) → Nothing Has Changed move [4], however it exemplifies the problem with the statement in question here. You "don't think this case is really a good application of the 'naturally ambiguous' clause in the guideline", but who is to say someone else won't think it is a good application? What is "good" anyway? To your credit, you support your view with some reasoning, but, again, it's not reasoning that has consensus support. And the statement here in the guideline does not imply the clarifications you make in your RM !vote comment anyway; it's far more open to interpretation than you seem to think it is. In particular, the phrase "inherently lacks precision" can arguably apply to almost any title. But I see no reason to disambiguate titles that "inherently lack precision" even when interpreted narrowly; if it's the most WP:COMMONNAME for that topic used in WP:RS, and there is no other WP article that uses that name, it should be the title. Once you start making exceptions to that, you open Pandora's box, and endless RM discussions. --В²C ☎ 22:04, 5 February 2016 (UTC)
- The statement should have been deleted the first time it was noticed. So far as I know that's exactly what happened. The fact that you think this is about "winning" says much about you and nothing about anyone else. The notion that a WP title that is not ambiguous with any other title on WP can never-the-less be "ambiguous" and be subject to WP:DISAMBIGUATION (whether natural or parenthetic - that's beside the point) is a view held by a minority of WP editors; not a majority, and certainly not by a community-wide WP:CONSENSUS. Just because this minority manages to cobble together a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS in an occasional obscure RM discussion does not establish WP:CONSENSUS for this view. --В²C ☎ 21:41, 5 February 2016 (UTC)