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{{Re|Yoninah}} you and I are doing the same dance on this one. So, please finish it how you think it should look. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 19:32, 30 October 2019 (UTC) |
{{Re|Yoninah}} you and I are doing the same dance on this one. So, please finish it how you think it should look. [[User:Maile66|— Maile ]] ([[User talk:Maile66|talk]]) 19:32, 30 October 2019 (UTC) |
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:Sure. BTW this illustrates the importance of making sure approved hooks are moved to the special occasion holding area. Prep builders are not mind-readers; we usually don't comb the nominations page looking for special occasion requests. Nominators must ask closing reviewers to move the nomination to the special occasion holding area as soon as they get the tick. [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 19:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC) |
:Sure. BTW this illustrates the importance of making sure approved hooks are moved to the special occasion holding area. Prep builders are not mind-readers; we usually don't comb the nominations page looking for special occasion requests. Nominators must ask closing reviewers to move the nomination to the special occasion holding area as soon as they get the tick. [[User:Yoninah|Yoninah]] ([[User talk:Yoninah|talk]]) 19:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC) |
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== DYK is almost overdue == |
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In less than two hours [[Template:Did you know|Did you know]] will need to be updated, however the '''[[Template:Did you know/Queue/3|next queue]]''' either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions: |
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# Check the '''[[Template:Did you know/Preparation area 4|prep areas]]'''; if there are between 6 and 10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the '''[[Template talk:Did you know|suggestions page]]''' and add them and the credits as required. |
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# Once completed edit '''[[Template:Did you know/Queue/3|queue #3]]''' and replace the page with the entire content from the next update |
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# Add <nowiki>{{</nowiki>[[Template:DYKbotdo|DYKbotdo]]<nowiki>|~~~}}</nowiki> to the top of the queue and save the page |
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Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. |
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Thanks and have a good day, [[User:DYKUpdateBot|DYKUpdateBot]] ([[User talk:DYKUpdateBot|talk]]) 22:08, 30 October 2019 (UTC) |
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Prep 2: Shiwei, Inner Mongolia
This may be a case of ENGVAR, but I find the wording of this hook a little strange:
- ... that Shiwei, Inner Mongolia, near the China–Russia border, is home to descendants of mixed marriages of Han Chinese and ethnic Russians starting at the end of the 19th century?
To me, it would be more natural to say something like:
- ALT1 ... that Shiwei, Inner Mongolia, near the China–Russia border, has been home to descendants of mixed marriages of Han Chinese and ethnic Russians since the end of the 19th century?
What do others think? Perhaps I'm just splitting hairs or it is a case of WP:ENGVAR. RebeccaGreen (talk) 11:46, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
- I agree your wording is better, but the hook is still hard to parse.
- ALT2 ... that about 2000 Russian-Chinese live in the Mongolian village of Shiwei, near the China–Russia border?
- What about this? MB 14:17, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
- Or,
- ALT3 ... that Shiwei, Inner Mongolia, near the China–Russia border, is home to about 2000 people of Russian-Chinese descent?
- RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:31, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
- I didn't add the 2,000 people figure into the article because I wasn't sure if it was accurate. I've added more content related to the Russian descendants from an academic source to bring some clarity to the history of the mixed marriages. Villagethings (talk) 14:34, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- I also thought something was strange about the hook wording, but I don't know if ALT1 is correct. I thought the hook was trying to say that the marriages started in the late 19th century, not that the descendants have lived there since then. Let's ask the nominator Villagethings. Yoninah (talk) 15:14, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
- ALT3 is definitely the clearest, but to me it seems a little too... mundane. It seems quite unremarkable that a border region would be home to people of mixed descent. Is there another fact that could be found for this article? — RAVENPVFF · talk · 16:25, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
- The nominator's first suggested hook was thought too mundane as well. The only other thing I can see is this, perhaps:
- ALT4 ... that the Friendship Bridge at Shiwei, Inner Mongolia across the China–Russia border is not open to passenger traffic?
- or something like that. Or,
- ALT5 ... that Chinese tourists travel to Shiwei, Inner Mongolia to look across the border at Russia?
- RebeccaGreen (talk) 04:41, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
- The nominator's first suggested hook was thought too mundane as well. The only other thing I can see is this, perhaps:
- I didn't add the 2,000 people figure into the article because I wasn't sure if it was accurate. I've added more content related to the Russian descendants from an academic source to bring some clarity to the history of the mixed marriages. Villagethings (talk) 14:34, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
I like the wording "ALT1 ... that Shiwei, Inner Mongolia, near the China–Russia border, has been home to descendants of mixed marriages of Han Chinese and ethnic Russians since the end of the 19th century?" a lot better too! Villagethings (talk) 04:34, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Villagethings: that is a statement of fact, not a hook. Your goal is to "hook" readers into clicking on the article, not telling them everything they need to know so they don't need to read it. Yoninah (talk) 19:15, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- I like ALT4, but when I got to the article to find out why, it didn't explain, so I've added a bit from that source. I think we should add the name of the bridge (Friendship Bridge) into the hook, as it makes the hook a bit hookier that the Friendship Bridge doesn't allow passenger traffic. Not sure I should approve ALT4 at this point, though -- would anyone else want to approve that?--valereee (talk) 14:51, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, I like that, valereee! I have replaced 'bridge' with 'Friendship Bridge' in ALT4 above. Does the wording sound OK now the bridge is named? or would it be better to have something like ALT4a "... that the Friendship Bridge at Shiwei, Inner Mongolia, that crosses the China–Russia border, is not open to passenger traffic?" Having suggested the original ALT4, I can't approve it either - hopefully someone else will. RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:27, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- RebeccaGreen, I think either of those would work! --valereee (talk) 20:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- RebeccaGreen, Valereee, I prefer the non-negative wording in ALT5. We could add "Friendship Bridge" to that:
- ALT5a: ... that Chinese tourists travel to the Friendship Bridge in Shiwei, Inner Mongolia to look across the border at Russia? Yoninah (talk) 23:26, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yoninah, that one doesn't have a citation at the sentence. I'll see if I can find one. --valereee (talk) 14:19, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- ETA: yeah, I'm not sure the Pulford source supports that. Tour buses stop there for a photo op, but there's no indication the tourists travel to the bridge for the purpose of looking at Russia. It sounds more like they travel to Shiwei to experience a Russian village inside China, and while there they stop at the bridge for photos. --valereee (talk) 14:24, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- valereee, it looks like you've found evidence in the source and edited the article so that it does now support ALT5a? Pinging @Maile66, Narutolovehinata5, Gerda Arendt, and Cwmhiraeth: or anyone else around, We still need someone to approve one of these ALT hooks before it goes on the main page in about 9 hours time! RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:44, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- How about
- valereee, it looks like you've found evidence in the source and edited the article so that it does now support ALT5a? Pinging @Maile66, Narutolovehinata5, Gerda Arendt, and Cwmhiraeth: or anyone else around, We still need someone to approve one of these ALT hooks before it goes on the main page in about 9 hours time! RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:44, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- ETA: yeah, I'm not sure the Pulford source supports that. Tour buses stop there for a photo op, but there's no indication the tourists travel to the bridge for the purpose of looking at Russia. It sounds more like they travel to Shiwei to experience a Russian village inside China, and while there they stop at the bridge for photos. --valereee (talk) 14:24, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yoninah, that one doesn't have a citation at the sentence. I'll see if I can find one. --valereee (talk) 14:19, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- RebeccaGreen, I think either of those would work! --valereee (talk) 20:30, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oh, I like that, valereee! I have replaced 'bridge' with 'Friendship Bridge' in ALT4 above. Does the wording sound OK now the bridge is named? or would it be better to have something like ALT4a "... that the Friendship Bridge at Shiwei, Inner Mongolia, that crosses the China–Russia border, is not open to passenger traffic?" Having suggested the original ALT4, I can't approve it either - hopefully someone else will. RebeccaGreen (talk) 16:27, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- ALT6 ... that the "Friendship Bridge" on the Russian/Chinese border at Shiwei, Inner Mongolia is used by trucks carrying quarried stone but human traffic is not permitted? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 17:48, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- "Human traffic" reminds me of Human trafficking. How about:
- ALT7: that the "Friendship Bridge" on the Russia–China border at Shiwei, Inner Mongolia, is used by trucks, not people? Yoninah (talk) 18:21, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- I like ALT4, but when I got to the article to find out why, it didn't explain, so I've added a bit from that source. I think we should add the name of the bridge (Friendship Bridge) into the hook, as it makes the hook a bit hookier that the Friendship Bridge doesn't allow passenger traffic. Not sure I should approve ALT4 at this point, though -- would anyone else want to approve that?--valereee (talk) 14:51, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Replaced with ALT6, substituting human traffic > passenger vehicles --valereee (talk) 21:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- That needs a comma after Mongolia, unless we want to ay that Inner Mongolia is used by trucks. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:58, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Prep 6: Ring Cycle
- ... that in Der Ring in Minden, a project to present Wagner's Ring Cycle on a small stage, the singers performed in front of the orchestra?
- @Gerda Arendt:@Cwmhiraeth:@Gatoclass:
- On the face of it, this is not interesting to me or a broad readership. I see that the piped link at the end was changed from "a symphony orchestra" for some reason. I think this hook needs rewording to explain why this is so unique. Yoninah (talk) 21:07, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know how to say it short. It's unique that it is a symphony orchestra, an orchestra which doesn't usually perform opera. The link should not have been changed, - the name of the orchestra is too long, imho, also wouldn't tell the reader the difference. What else is not interesting: that the singers play in front? where you see face expression, and understand every word, while they usually play behind a large orchestra, far away, and you need subtitles to know what they sing? Better wording always welcome, but it's highly unusual, even unique until others will imitate. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes. Like:
- ALT1: ... that in Der Ring in Minden, a project to present Wagner's Ring Cycle on a small stage, the singers performed in front of, rather than behind, the symphony orchestra? Yoninah (talk) 21:45, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the offer, but it needs change to reflect that "rather than behind" is sort of wrong, because usually the orchestra is placed in the orchestra pit, not visible to the audience sitting on the same level (only from the balconies), but yes, usually there's a big distance between the first row of the audience and the stage. Can we focus on the orchestra on stage? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Of course we could simply say that critics praise the Minden miracle (das Wunder von Minden) and similar phrases, but I tried factually to say what makes this miracle. One critic summarizes: "Minden in Ostwestfalen hat das Unmögliche möglich gemacht und auf einer minimalen Bühne in einer hochkarätigen Besetzung einen Ring auf die Bühne gestellt, der den Vergleich mit den großen Bühnen des Landes keineswegs zu scheuen braucht." (Minden in Ostwestfalen has made the impossible possible and put a ring on stage with a top-class cast on a minimal stage that doesn't have to shy away from comparison with the big stages of the country. - machine translation) - Would "made the impossible possible" be useful for a hook? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:36, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know how to say it short. It's unique that it is a symphony orchestra, an orchestra which doesn't usually perform opera. The link should not have been changed, - the name of the orchestra is too long, imho, also wouldn't tell the reader the difference. What else is not interesting: that the singers play in front? where you see face expression, and understand every word, while they usually play behind a large orchestra, far away, and you need subtitles to know what they sing? Better wording always welcome, but it's highly unusual, even unique until others will imitate. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 21:19, 21 October 2019 (UTC)
- Taking a look at the article, I think there's potential for a hook based on the part that goes
The singers acted in front of the orchestra, making an intimate approach to the dramatic situations possible.
; however, that part only seems to be mentioned in the lede; if that could be elaborated on in the "Stage and team" section (with a reference), I think that would make for a good hook. Another possibility would be to elaborate on Yoninah's point about the singers performing in front of the orchestra; apparently it was because of how small the stage was for a Wagner operatic production. Perhaps a hook based on that could work, meaning a hook that goes something like "the singers performed in front of the orchestra because the stage was too small compared to typical Wagner performances"? Having been to a number of plays myself though, I'm not sure how common such an arrangement is, as I've been to a number of plays where the orchestra is also behind or below the performers. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:18, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for the offers. The lead sentence is a summary of things later, and the psychology thing has been said in the hook for the director, so would be a repetition. - We can't say the stage is too small, because it's the orchestra pit which, as the FAZ critic remarked, is too small to hold a Baroque orchestra (so it was covered, extending the stage). I think we have too little room in the hook to say what is not, - better say what is. I haven't seen all singers in front of the orchestra in my life until I went to Minden, first in 2012. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
The reason I changed the hook from "a symphony orchestra" to "the orchestra" was because I assumed the unusual or "hooky" part was intended to be that the singers performed in front of the orchestra, which is a pretty unusual arrangement (certainly, I've never seen it), and the phrase "a symphony orchestra" detracted from that because it suggested that it's unusual for opera singers to perform with a symphony orchestra. So far as I was aware, opera is always performed with a symphony orchestra - but perhaps that is not the case? Regardless, it wasn't the least bit hooky for anybody who isn't aware of that particular piece of esoterica.
If it's both unusual for opera singers to perform in front of the orchestra, and to perform with a full symphony orchestra, then I think the hook would need a tweak to emphasize those points, but as that would probably prove difficult, then something along the lines of the ALTS suggested above should be adopted. Gatoclass (talk) 04:23, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
I note that our own article on pit orchestras states that operas usually are backed with full size, ie symphony orchestras anyway, which is what I thought. Gatoclass (talk) 04:31, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I see your point, and yes, it's unusual for any orchestra to be on stage, and behind the singers. What kind of orchestra is performing opera depends mostly on what kind of opera it is, chamber opera with a chamber orchestra, Baroque opera often with an orchestra dedicated to historically informed performance, etc. I don't know how to say in a short way that an additional unusual thing about this project is that it was not an orchestra dedicated to opera, such as an orchestra from an opera house, but one dedicated to playing symphony concert, - "symphony orchestra" not only meaning their size but their program. Could I clarify? I also see ERRORS coming saying that piping orchestra to a specific one is an easter egg. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:42, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I found the hook a draw, thinking "Isn't that just a concert staging?" [1]. I went off to read the article, which explains clearly. I would recommend leaving it as "orchestra". William Avery (talk) 10:34, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- Would you have a way to stress that the acting on two levels (spiral staircase) with intense psychological detail was about the opposite of a concert performance? I just don't have the words in English and would need help. The stage was designed by someone who set the same works - which Wagner hated to be called operas - at the Bayreuth Festival, but he will have his hook. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:59, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- I found the hook a draw, thinking "Isn't that just a concert staging?" [1]. I went off to read the article, which explains clearly. I would recommend leaving it as "orchestra". William Avery (talk) 10:34, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- As no agreement has been made on what hook to run, I'm returning this to prep for a new hook to be proposed; discussion can continue on the nomination page. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 21:14, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Prep 3 Girl On the Third Floor
@Yoninah: @Cwmhiraeth: @Jack Sebastian: Responding to a query on my talk about Girl on the Third Floor special date request of October 25, USA time. This hook is currently in Prep 3, which looks to me like it will appear a day early in the US, on October 24 at 5 p.m., and remain there for 24 hours . Please confirm if that is correct. Jack Sebastian, in response to your original question on my talk page, when the hook is on the main page, there will be a notice on your talk page, and a notice on the article's talk page. All concerned, please reply here to this thread if this is correct, or otherwise needs comment. Thanks. — Maile (talk) 21:53, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Maile66: as you said, Prep 3/Queue 3 will go up at 5 p.m. on the West Coast and run for 24 hours. If the nominator wants to run it from 12 AM to 5 PM on the West Coast (and 12 AM to 8 PM in New York), it should be moved up to Queue 2. Yoninah (talk) 22:12, 22 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Maile66:, @Yoninah: - thanks for the heads up. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 02:17, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
A question about articles being converted from a redirect.
Say for example, an article (Bar Foo) gets redirected to another article (Foobar) due to a lack of independent notability. Some time later, after sources establishing notability for Bar Foo are found, Bar Foo is recreated as its own article. Would Bar Foo be eligible for DYK if it meets the newness/length requirements? What if, for example, Bar Foo was more than 1,500 characters long before being redirected: would it still qualify for DYK if the recreation was a reversion to the previous version, or would it only qualify if a new version that meets requirements is written? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:21, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- IMO, I think such a scenario should be taken on a case-by-case basis. WP:DYKR says, "Fivefold expansion means at least five times as much prose as the previously existing article, no matter how bad it was (copyvios are the only exception), no matter whether any of it was kept, and no matter if it was up for deletion." But I think that's a bit of a gloss-over of the rule. In the scenario you gave, if Bar Foo at 1500+ characters was redirected to Foobar, then it's original subject matter was probably covered in Foobar. Having the redirect later developed into its own article - assuming it was not split from a hunk of Foobar - would seem like there is enough new material for it to be a different article aside from whatever got absorbed into Foobar. — Maile (talk) 01:35, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- In this case, the article that I'm talking about is Miyu Kubota, which was redirected to Iris (Japanese band) a while back. I plan to recreate Kubota's article, perhaps mostly from scratch. If this were to happen, assuming that most of the new article was new content and not copied (considering her mention in the Iris article is just one short sentence), could it still qualify under DYK rules? It should be noted that the original Kubota article was pretty short and not 1500+ characters, I only gave such an example earlier since my question was intended to be general in scope as well. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 01:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Go ahead and ping me, I'll review that for you, ignoring rulez if necessary, but probably not even needed. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Prep 1: KSKI AM
- ... that KSKI AM went on the air in 1960 from studios located in a lodge at the Sun Valley resort?
@Raymie, Cwmhiraeth, and Yoninah: To be honest, while the hook meets requirements, it doesn't really sound like an interesting hook, but rather straight reporting of facts. Perhaps something more eye-catching could be proposed here? Maybe something about the station's skiing focus might be a good start. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 07:59, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- The skiing seems quite a small part of its history? I think it's quite interesting having a radio station at a resort - how many resorts have their own radio station? Maybe it's common, but I wouldn't have expected it, myself .... RebeccaGreen (talk) 08:30, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- The thought I had was that people would see the "lodge" or "studios" part first before the resort. If we are going to still go with a variation of the above hook, maybe the resort part could be emphasized further? Because I can imagine that the part can be easy to miss since it's at the very end of the hook. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- I also passed over it before I noticed "SKI" in the call letters. If Raymie agrees, how about shortening and refining it to:
- ALT1: * ... that KSKI AM broadcast from a lodge at the Sun Valley ski resort? Yoninah (talk) 11:03, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- And now I've looked at the Sun Valley article, I see that it is indeed a ski resort - and I like this ALT1. It focuses on what's interesting - having 'studios' in the hook was distracting, as most radio stations broadcast from some kind of studio ... RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- I would support this ALT1. Raymie (t • c) 18:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- The thought I had was that people would see the "lodge" or "studios" part first before the resort. If we are going to still go with a variation of the above hook, maybe the resort part could be emphasized further? Because I can imagine that the part can be easy to miss since it's at the very end of the hook. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 08:51, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
Queue 2: Samsung Galaxy M30s
- ... that the Samsung Galaxy M30s features the largest battery capacity for a smartphone available in India?
@Taewangkorea, Tenpop421, and Cwmhiraeth: I'm sorry, but this just screams "ad" to me. The hook is of dubious factual accuracy: smartphones are commodities and some Chinese manufacturer or seller is bound to have shipped a smartphone with a larger battery capacity into the Indian market. It's not that such a fact can't be mentioned in an article, but because of how difficult it is to prove it, something like this would probably require attribution and is thus probably not suitable for DYK. I'm also concerned that the hook fact may be entirely irrelevant to readers outside India. I consider the first hook suggested in Template:Did you know nominations/Samsung Galaxy M30s to be an improvement. feminist (talk) 13:19, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Also, what's the meaning/ significance of the word "capacity" there? Is this just about size? If so, why not just "has the largest battery"? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:25, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I'd agree. So what does this word in the hook mean, the length of battery life? Or is it capacitance? Or something else? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- By capacity, I was refering to the electric charge of the battery in terms of Ampere hours. The reviewer thought the 1st hook (samsung phone with largest battery) was more interesting but for some reason the 2nd hook (for the India fact) got promoted. Taewangkorea (talk) 16:46, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I'd agree. So what does this word in the hook mean, the length of battery life? Or is it capacitance? Or something else? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:37, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Whatever hook is chosen, someone will likely complain that featuring Samsung at all at DYK is promotional, see here.-- Pawnkingthree (talk) 13:40, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note that my concern is not with the article subject per se; in fact I have myself written several articles on phones/tech products that have run on DYK. My concern is specific to this hook in that it may fail the "broad interest" requirement, and that "largest battery currently available in India!" sounds too much like an ad to me. I totally understand how it can be difficult to find viable hooks for such topics. feminist (talk) 17:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks for clarifying that, Feminist. I think most people would call that "battery life". But then I'm no expert on the Indian mobile phone market. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:54, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Note that my concern is not with the article subject per se; in fact I have myself written several articles on phones/tech products that have run on DYK. My concern is specific to this hook in that it may fail the "broad interest" requirement, and that "largest battery currently available in India!" sounds too much like an ad to me. I totally understand how it can be difficult to find viable hooks for such topics. feminist (talk) 17:32, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- ... that the 6000 mAh battery on the Samsung Galaxy M30s is the largest ever for a Samsung smartphone?
- I also support going for the original hook. Taewangkorea (talk) 19:48, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- Replaced with ALT0, also removing second wikilink to Samsung as that felt over-the-top promotional. I'm concerned about so much currently-available retail merch appearing on the main page. I understand the concerns about fairness to editors who are interested in new tech products, but this just feels very unseemly to me for an encyclopedia to have blurbs and links on the main page to new products. This needs some thought. --valereee (talk) 21:56, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- WMF could encourage more inclusive editing if it bought everyone in India a Samsung Galaxy M30s. They might ever get them at discount if we got an image on Main page? Martinevans123 (talk) 22:07, 23 October 2019 (UTC)
- I strongly support holding a RfC or something like that to determine consensus on the appropriateness of newly released commercial products on DYK, as the last discussion on the dyk talk page did not do much. Taewangkorea (talk)
It's not as if we are getting a ton of these hooks though - as far as I can tell, this is only the second one this month. But I get the concern about the promotional aspect - nominators should be looking to highlight facts that are not of a promotional nature wherever possible. Gatoclass (talk) 01:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think the problem is really more like, considering the kind of content these articles have, it's difficult, and sometimes perhaps even impossible, to write a hook that doesn't sound the least bit promotional. The battery size hook proposed above is an improvement, but even that could reasonably be interpreted as being promotional. Well I guess considering WP:LIMITED, there's really not much else we can do except maybe having greater scrutiny over these kinds of hooks. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 02:14, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- One possible approach, if no other hooky fact is apparent, is to find some interesting but not overtly promotional observation made by a reviewer and use that as a basis for the hook. Other than that, I can't see anything in our ruleset that deals with promotional hooks, so perhaps we need to add a word or two on the topic. Gatoclass (talk) 05:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Gatoclass I think we've had at least five since early September just from Taewangkorea, haven't we? Taewangkorea, yeah, maybe an RfC would be a good idea. I'm concerned about three things for sure, the first being whether it's appropriate for WP to look like we're promoting new merchandise. It seems like a magnet for attracting UPE. Other companies are going to see these entries and wonder how they can get their own new products featured. The second is whether a not-truly-groundbreaking feature of ANY commercially-available product is likely to be of interest to anyone who isn't currently considering buying that product. The biggest battery ever in a Samsung phone just isn't of interest to anyone else. But the third thing is for well-intentioned editors like yourself who are just writing articles about things that interest them. In your case that's new tech. Is it unfair to you if the thing you're most interested in writing about isn't welcome in DYK? --valereee (talk) 15:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
DYKUpdateBot did not update the main page at 00:00 -- any admin up to doing the manual task?
DYKUpdateBot did not update the main page at 00:00, so we need an admin to do a manual update of said main page with Queue 2. Pinging Gatoclass, who did the last one, and Maile, Cas Liber, Amakuru, and Materialscientist, who may wish to try. If any other admin is around and would like to attempt it, the instructions are on the Queue page you'll be working on (Queue 2), in the "Posting the new update" section at the bottom. You can follow along with the DYKUpdateBot in its most recent update by viewing its Contributions. Obligatory ping to Shubinator, the bot's owner — I'll post directly on Shubinator's talk page when I get done here. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:21, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you BlueMoonset, I have updated the main page, but may have to come back a little later to complete all aspects of the update. Gatoclass (talk) 00:51, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- All done now hopefully, although somebody might like to double-check to see that I didn't miss anything. Gatoclass (talk) 01:27, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- DYKUpdateBot is now back up and running, thanks BlueMoonset and Gatoclass for jumping in! Shubinator (talk) 04:55, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
DYK header on the main page
I may be missing something, but my understanding of MOS:ELLIPSIS is that there is to be a non-breaking space between the word that precedes an ellipsis and the ellipsis itself. However, there is no space between "know" and the ellipsis in the "Did you know..." header on the main page. Should that be changed? Armadillopteryxtalk 09:45, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Nice catch! - that's probably been there for years and nobody noticed :) Per MOS, I would say yes, it should be changed, but as it's not actually a sentence, it might look worse with a space - it's hard to say without seeing it, so it might be one of those WP:IAR situations. Anyway, I think your question would be better posed at Talk:Main page. Gatoclass (talk) 12:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks! I'll post it there. Armadillopteryxtalk 15:57, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Prep 3 pulled hooks
I had to pull three hooks from prep 3 because I was unable to verify them. Here they are:
- ... that director and screenwriter Travis Stevens paused renovations on his home to film Girl on the Third Floor?
- Girl on the Third Floor – Jack Sebastian () () – View nom subpage
- I was unable to verify from the supplied source that it was his home, so far as I can tell it was just the headquarters of his production company - and substituting that wouldn't make for much of a hook. Pinging the nominator Jack Sebastian.
- I am pretty unclear as to why Gatoclass was unable to verify the reference, as its the very first reference in the article. Since Gatoclass pulled and almost immediately went offline, can someone else verify this, so it doesn't miss its mainppace window? - Jack Sebastian (talk) 21:46, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, this is what the above-linked source says
Interestingly, in his post-screening Q&A, Stevens revealed that much of the story was not fabricated: the house is real, the recently acquired headquarters of his production company, and its backstory was only slightly embellished for the film. Inspired, Stevens and his team paused the actual renovation of the house to spin their fictionalized version.
— Maile (talk) 22:00, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- Indeed, this is what the above-linked source says
Done sourced hook has been restored to Queue 3. I think Gatoclass swapped more than one hook in Queue 3, and then shuffled them, so I was unsure which one had replaced Girl on the Third Floor. I moved Betsy Head Park down to Prep 3. If it doesn't belong in that Prep, then please feel free to move Betsy Head Park elsewhere. — Maile (talk) 22:16, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- — Maile or anyone, I was going to suggest substituting 'house' for 'home', as the source doesn't actually say it was where the producer/director lived or planned to live, just that it was his production company's house and future headquarters. I think there's less likelihood of quibbles saying "paused renovations on his house". RebeccaGreen (talk) 23:06, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- @RebeccaGreen: I noticed that also, but some producers have their company based in their home. Better to be safe, than have another question. I changed it accordingly. Thanks. — Maile (talk) 23:14, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Am I missing something? I read that quote given by Maile above when I was trying to confirm the hook and I still fail to see how it confirms that the headquarters of his production company was also his home. Gatoclass (talk) 01:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- The hook doesn't say it was his home now, it says it was his house (ie, a house he/his production company owned). RebeccaGreen (talk) 01:28, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- The quote supplied to verify the hook above doesn't say it was his home - period. It also doesn't even say he personally owned it at any time - it just says the house was "recently acquired" for use as the headquarters of his production company. Gatoclass (talk) 01:43, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- I see you mean that the hook was changed from "home" to "house". However, that still does not address the issue in my view, and since the hook is now on the main page, I have taken the issue up at WP:ERRORS. Gatoclass (talk) 02:38, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Resolved - Zdeňka Wiedermannová-Motyčková
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The article states that it's the first girls' secondary school in Moravia, not Brno. Now, Brno is apparently in Moravia, but the discrepancy was enough to make me doubt the hook accuracy. Also, I couldn't check the sources because they are in a foreign language, and the translation given on the nomination page that is supposed to verify the hook doesn't mention anywhere that it was the first such school. Pinging the nominators SusunW and Ipigott.
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- ... that the Qarhan Playa's Bieletan subbasin – including the Suli, South Suli, Dabiele, and Xiaobiele salt lakes – is China's largest source of brine lithium?
- Suli Lake – LlywelynII () () – View nom subpage
I was able to verify most of this hook after considerable difficulty, but most of the sources refer to the lake as Senie not Suli and I was unable to establish they are one and the same as the article states. Pinging the nominator LlywelynII.
- As LlywelynII has been inactive since September (apart from a single edit on October 1), the Suli Lake nomination may have to continue without them. Pinging RebeccaGreen who assisted in one of LlywelynII's other nominations, as well as nomination reviewer TonyTheTiger for help. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 19:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- As a first look, I see that source 2, Yu et al (2001) says "A more detailed lithological, geochemical and pollen record of lake status changes in the basin is provided by a 101m-long core (Core CK2022) taken from the playa surface to the east of Sheli Lake and thus between Sheli Lake and Dabiele Lake (Huang et al.1980; Du and Kong et al., 1983)". The map in source 4, Du et al (2018) shows CK2022 between numbers 1 (Seni Lake) and 2 (Dabiele Lake). Romanisations of names in other scripts are always tricky, and in this case we first have a name in (a dialect of) the Mongolian language being represented in Chinese characters, per the Mandarin pronunciation of those characters, and then romanised .... Regarding "most of the sources refer to the lake as Senie not Suli", of the online sources in the Roman alphabet that we have in the article, the names are given as: Suli: Mao et al, Zheng; Sheli: Yu et al (2001); Seni(e): Du et al, Spencer et al, Yu et al (2013). So 3 sources give Seni(e), 2 give Suli, 1 gives Sheli - or, the second consonant is l in 3 sources and n in 3 sources. Apart from not being able to read Chinese, the Chinese sources would show the characters, but not the pronunciation of the characters, which would depend on which variety of Chinese it was being read in. I would be satisfied that Suli/Sheli/Seni(e) are the same lake - which version should be used as the title name in English Wikipedia could perhaps be discussed, but needn't affect this hook, I don't think. RebeccaGreen (talk) 01:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you for that analysis Rebecca, I will recheck the nomination using that information a little later. With regard to the "most sources" comment, that was a misstatement, I was referring to the sources provided to verify the hook, not the sources in the article as a whole. Gatoclass (talk) 01:33, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- As a first look, I see that source 2, Yu et al (2001) says "A more detailed lithological, geochemical and pollen record of lake status changes in the basin is provided by a 101m-long core (Core CK2022) taken from the playa surface to the east of Sheli Lake and thus between Sheli Lake and Dabiele Lake (Huang et al.1980; Du and Kong et al., 1983)". The map in source 4, Du et al (2018) shows CK2022 between numbers 1 (Seni Lake) and 2 (Dabiele Lake). Romanisations of names in other scripts are always tricky, and in this case we first have a name in (a dialect of) the Mongolian language being represented in Chinese characters, per the Mandarin pronunciation of those characters, and then romanised .... Regarding "most of the sources refer to the lake as Senie not Suli", of the online sources in the Roman alphabet that we have in the article, the names are given as: Suli: Mao et al, Zheng; Sheli: Yu et al (2001); Seni(e): Du et al, Spencer et al, Yu et al (2013). So 3 sources give Seni(e), 2 give Suli, 1 gives Sheli - or, the second consonant is l in 3 sources and n in 3 sources. Apart from not being able to read Chinese, the Chinese sources would show the characters, but not the pronunciation of the characters, which would depend on which variety of Chinese it was being read in. I would be satisfied that Suli/Sheli/Seni(e) are the same lake - which version should be used as the title name in English Wikipedia could perhaps be discussed, but needn't affect this hook, I don't think. RebeccaGreen (talk) 01:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- As LlywelynII has been inactive since September (apart from a single edit on October 1), the Suli Lake nomination may have to continue without them. Pinging RebeccaGreen who assisted in one of LlywelynII's other nominations, as well as nomination reviewer TonyTheTiger for help. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 19:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Please note that I will be unable to respond to any comments now as I am about to log off, so these issues if they are going to be resolved today would have to be resolved by others. Gatoclass (talk) 16:09, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Image instructions for Admin
The following discussion is moved here from my talk page. In a nutshell, I was trying to get suggestions on how to word the admin instructions on image protection for the main page. I'm moving this here, as more admins might see it here rather than my talk page. All I'm trying to do is clarify one small part of the admin instructions for image protection. You people figure it out, please. I'm throwing in the towel on simplifying the wording. — Maile (talk) 20:39, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
![](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Purple_arrow_down.svg/20px-Purple_arrow_down.svg.png)
Talk page background thread on what follows
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Maile, re: Wikipedia:Did_you_know/Admin_instructions#Image How do we check/know that Krinkle has protected the image? When I click to https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Auto-protected_files/wikipedia/en I see today's DYK image and tomorrow's, but not the image I just moved to queue. --valereee (talk) 11:53, 17 October 2019 (UTC)
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@BlueMoonset: I've done a slight rewriting of Admin instructions#Image. I'm not sure if I got it so it makes sense. You and @Valereee: might want to have a look and edit anything that needs it. Let me put it this way - it still confuses me somewhat. We are telling the reader to either make sure it's loaded on English Wikipedia, or Commons, either/or, without telling the reader why it can be one or the other. And I don't know how to make it clearer. — Maile (talk) 00:02, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
- Maile, I'm afraid this is out of my area of expertise. It may be that Gatoclass knows, having been an admin and around DYK for a long time, or Shubinator, who wrote DYKUpdateBot and therefore the bot's error messages if there's a protection problem with the image to be promoted. Best of luck in getting the answer you need. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:59, 18 October 2019 (UTC)
- The difference is that cascading protection only applies for images on English Wikipedia, not Commons. So Commons images need to be protected manually or by Krinkle Bot. Shubinator (talk) 04:56, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Shubinator: @BlueMoonset: Now I'm REALLY confused about what we are trying to tell admins here. What are we protecting the image for/from? And if it isn't clear to me, why would it be clear to anyone else? I found WP:CASCADE, but this makes it even worse to convey this to other admins. How about you @Valereee:? Round and round and round we go. — Maile (talk) 20:19, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- I guess what I'm asking, if anyone has tried to follow this, is it seems we either do one or the other to protect the image. But tacked on to the instructions is a 3rd option, but wording confused me as to why we could chose the 3rd option, or do we add it to something else we already did? Can anyone clarify this with a Bullet-point list, preferably one sentence per bullet point. — Maile (talk) 20:50, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
- We're protecting the image from vandals who'd love to switch out a Main Page image for an inappropriate one - yes it's happened before. At the risk of confusing things further, let me try to summarize.
- If the image is currently:
- On English Wikipedia: no action required, the image should automatically be protected through cascading protection
- On Commons, one of the following should happen:
- KrinkleBot protects the image (if it's working)
- Commons admin manually protects the image
- Upload the image to English Wikipedia and tag it with {{c-uploaded}}, it'll automatically be protected through cascading protection
- The last bullet point is there because it's the only option for images currently on Commons when KrinkleBot is down and the promoting en.wiki admin isn't a Commons admin.
- Shubinator (talk) 03:11, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- If the image is currently:
- I'm afraid I'm with Maile and have been since I started moving preps to queues. My concern is that the instructions say to check whether the image has been protected, but I can't know if the image has been protected or not when I move prep > queue. It doesn't get protected until it's in either the next or the next-but-one queue, which may be days after I worked on that set. Which means I guess I need to remember to check again the day before a set I checked appears, which is definitely something that will slip my mind as the last thing to check off on the checklist.
- And I guess I assumed all DYK images were on commons, since we can't use fair-use images on the main page? Shubinator, excuse the stupid question, but how does the main page know to use the wp version instead of the commons version? When you say upload to English Wikipedia, I assume you're talking about me downloading from commons the file of the same name, then uploading it here, protecting it, and changing something in the queue's markup to point to the wikipedia version instead of the version on commons which it's currently pointing to? --valereee (talk) 13:54, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Shubinator: THANK YOU! I finally got it, and have done slight rewording that should make it clear to @Valereee: or anybody else. I also added a link to the Commons admins, which I think was a missing piece to this. Please feel free to edit, but I think it's clear now. Admin instructions - Image — Maile (talk) 14:17, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Valereee: I think images that are not restricted to Fair Use can be loaded directly onto Wikipedia, without first going to Commons. It's been a while since I've seen one, but I do know such images are (or were) tagged with something like, "Upload this image to Commons" and provide a link to the appropriate tool. Somebody can explain that better than I did. But, yeah, that's been a little confusing to me, also.. — Maile (talk) 14:22, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Maile66, oh, yes, I've seen that, too, and I think I may've uploaded them to commons a few times even. I just looked at the instructions and I'm MUCH clearer now! I've already got the update bot errors on my watchlist, and posting to commons media protection is easy enough! Thanks so much for figuring this out, both of you! --valereee (talk) 18:02, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Valereee: I think images that are not restricted to Fair Use can be loaded directly onto Wikipedia, without first going to Commons. It's been a while since I've seen one, but I do know such images are (or were) tagged with something like, "Upload this image to Commons" and provide a link to the appropriate tool. Somebody can explain that better than I did. But, yeah, that's been a little confusing to me, also.. — Maile (talk) 14:22, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Shubinator: THANK YOU! I finally got it, and have done slight rewording that should make it clear to @Valereee: or anybody else. I also added a link to the Commons admins, which I think was a missing piece to this. Please feel free to edit, but I think it's clear now. Admin instructions - Image — Maile (talk) 14:17, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Prep 3: Halloween hooks
Template:Did you know nominations/Joshua Guerrero may be a good fit for the last person-hook slot, as it mentions The Ghosts of Versailles, but the QPQ hasn't been done yet. Pinging nominator @Gerda Arendt:. Yoninah (talk) 10:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- reviewed now --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have just reviewed this article, Gerda Arendt. I have a suggestion about the hook - see what you think. RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:51, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have now suggested an ALT hook, so a new reviewer is needed. RebeccaGreen (talk) 04:14, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yoninah has reviewed and approved the hook, so could another promoter add it to Prep 3, please? RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:23, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have now suggested an ALT hook, so a new reviewer is needed. RebeccaGreen (talk) 04:14, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I have just reviewed this article, Gerda Arendt. I have a suggestion about the hook - see what you think. RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:51, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- reviewed now --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:09, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Another possibility for Halloween is Template:Did you know nominations/Gara Medouar - if we're not waiting for the image licence, and if there's room in the set. RebeccaGreen (talk) 12:18, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
Template:Did you know nominations/Heather Olmstead
HickoryOughtShirt?4 Epicgenius
- ... that in 2018, Brigham Young University volleyball coach Heather Olmstead held the highest winning percentage of any women's volleyball coach in NCAA Division I history?
- This is probably just me being ignorant of sports, but the article says During the 2018 season, Olmstead earned her 100th win in a match against Pepperdine University.[13] At the conclusion of the season, she was named the American Volleyball Coaches Association Coach of the Year.[14] The following year, she was selected by Team USA to coach the U.S. Collegiate National Volleyball Team in Japan. At the time of her selection, Olmstead held the highest winning percentage of any women's volleyball coach in NCAA Division I history with a minimum of one season and in any division with a minimum of three seasons.[15] 1. This seems to say it was in 2019, and 2. Is "the highest winning percentage of any women's volleyball coach in NCAA Division I history with a minimum of one season" the same as "the highest winning percentage of any women's volleyball coach in NCAA Division I history?" --valereee (talk) 16:15, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Valereee: thanks for pointing this out. To your second point: I would say so, since
the highest winning percentage of any women's volleyball coach in NCAA Division I history with zero seasons
would be an empty group. Coaches with wins and at least one season would be automatically included in the group of all coaches with wins. epicgenius (talk) 16:18, 25 October 2019 (UTC)- Epicgenius, I'll take your word for it! I was guessing it was intended to exclude someone who, for instance, only coached three games but won them all, but no one would confuse that with a winningest coach? But I do change the 2018 to 2019, though? --valereee (talk) 16:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- valereee, I guess so. epicgenius (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Sorry, ya'll. As someone who writes hockey, I am used to it encompassing 2018-19 but realize I misunderstood. Thanks for catching this. HickoryOughtShirt?4 (talk) 18:48, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- valereee, I guess so. epicgenius (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Epicgenius, I'll take your word for it! I was guessing it was intended to exclude someone who, for instance, only coached three games but won them all, but no one would confuse that with a winningest coach? But I do change the 2018 to 2019, though? --valereee (talk) 16:24, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Valereee: thanks for pointing this out. To your second point: I would say so, since
October 28 special occasion request into Prep 1
Template:Did you know nominations/Jack Roxburgh was reviwed and approved for a special occasion request on October 28, but never made its way into the corresponding holding area. Could it please be added to Template:Did you know/Preparation area 1? Thank you. Flibirigit (talk) 19:04, 25 October 2019 (UTC)
- Cwmhiraeth just promoted it to Prep 6. Would you want this to be placed in Prep 1 instead (so it would go up at night on October 28 in Canada)? feminist (talk) 06:04, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well, if you are going to put "on this day" in the hook, you do need to include it in the hook set that moves to the main page on that day. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:11, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well, going by Canadian time, "the hook set that moves to the main page on that day" would be Prep 1. feminist (talk) 06:14, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Prep 6 is fine. Cheers. Flibirigit (talk) 14:33, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well, going by Canadian time, "the hook set that moves to the main page on that day" would be Prep 1. feminist (talk) 06:14, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- Well, if you are going to put "on this day" in the hook, you do need to include it in the hook set that moves to the main page on that day. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:11, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
Prep 4
I requested on WP:DYKNA for Template:Did you know nominations/Liberate Hong Kong, the revolution of our times to run on November 1. Can the current image hook in Prep 4 be swapped to another date? Thanks, feminist (talk) 05:56, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
Done I reserved the lead spot in Prep 4 for your hook; promoter needed. Yoninah (talk) 17:11, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Feminist: What connection does this article have with November 1st? @Yoninah: Why do you want to use the image/video clip, because I wouldn't of my own volition choose this hook for an image slot? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:14, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I don't actually see a request or explanation for the date in the nomination, nor any mention of November 1 in the article. Are we missing something? RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:29, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- BlizzCon, Blizzard Entertainment's annual gaming convention, begins on November 1 this year. The phrase (the subject of the DYK article) gained prominence in the United States via events in connection with Blizzard (see Blizzard Entertainment#Hearthstone ban and Hong Kong protests for details). A protest has been planned at BlizzCon in response to the controversy. I expect reader interest for the topic to increase during BlizzCon, and having the article on the main page would aid readers who are curious about the slogan. feminist (talk) 14:46, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- With regards to the hook, I welcome other suggestions. It doesn't have to occupy the image slot, just that it's not every day we can get a video relevant to the topic as the image. feminist (talk) 14:49, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I thought it was novel to have a video clip. Yoninah (talk) 21:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- We seem to be at a stalemate here. Prep 4 needs to be promoted to the queue but is lacking a lead image. Cwmhiraeth doesn't think this hook image is appropriate for the lead slot, I can't promote it because I reviewed it, and the nominator, feminist, who usually promotes hooks, also can't promote it. Is someone else going to step up and promote this hook to Prep 4, or should we put in another image and promote this hook later? Yoninah (talk) 13:08, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- We can put in any other image in the article. It doesn't have to be a video, though (as I said) I think having a video as the DYK image is unique. feminist (talk) 13:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- With regard to WP:NPOV. I feel uneasy about having a video of chanting protesters in the image slot as it makes it seem that Wikipedia is supporting the protests. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 15:55, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- We can put in any other image in the article. It doesn't have to be a video, though (as I said) I think having a video as the DYK image is unique. feminist (talk) 13:13, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- We seem to be at a stalemate here. Prep 4 needs to be promoted to the queue but is lacking a lead image. Cwmhiraeth doesn't think this hook image is appropriate for the lead slot, I can't promote it because I reviewed it, and the nominator, feminist, who usually promotes hooks, also can't promote it. Is someone else going to step up and promote this hook to Prep 4, or should we put in another image and promote this hook later? Yoninah (talk) 13:08, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Yes, I thought it was novel to have a video clip. Yoninah (talk) 21:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Feminist: What connection does this article have with November 1st? @Yoninah: Why do you want to use the image/video clip, because I wouldn't of my own volition choose this hook for an image slot? Cwmhiraeth (talk) 14:14, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Done @Yoninah: I have promoted it to Prep 4. I fail to be convinced that a video makes us look more supportive than anything else. We've had some pretty funky lead images on DYK, which I would rather not have seen. One of which could have been seen as a support of blatant obscenity and/or outright pornography. Could a chant be be worse than that? We don't censor the Main Page. I thought DYK had guts for garters. — Maile (talk) 16:55, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
DYK is almost overdue
In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:
- Check the prep areas; if there are between 6 and 10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
- Once completed edit queue #5 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
- Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page
Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 22:08, 26 October 2019 (UTC)
- We need an admin: we're now overdue, since Prep 5 has yet to be promoted to Queue 5. Is anyone around who can check the prep and promoted it to queue, so the bot can do the promotion? Pinging Gatoclass, Maile, valereee, Cas Liber, Amakuru, and Vanamonde, in the hopes that one can do a promotion right now, and perhaps one of the others could promote the prep after in the next 23 hours that so we don't run into this problem tomorrow. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 00:31, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset, no one seems to be active. ___CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 01:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- All we can hope is that one of them stops by in the next hours and can do a promotion. Absent an admin who knows what they're doing in the DYK space, we're stuck until one shows up. It's been a while since it's happened, but sometimes we've had to wait many hours. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:53, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- BlueMoonset, no one seems to be active. ___CAPTAIN MEDUSAtalk 01:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, Gatoclass. Much appreciated. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:54, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I was around and aware that there was no queue last night, but unfortunately I had a somewhat busy evening and did not have the time to do any checks on the Hooks, so per the instructions and recent discussions I was unable to upload them. I will see if I have some time to tackle the checks for queue 6 today. Cheers — Amakuru (talk) 08:22, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment Sorry, have been helping a friend clean out her parents' house, we're headed over again in a short while, so I won't be around today either. Tomorrow I have meetings starting at 8:30, but I can probably do a set Tuesday. Gosh I wish some more regulars here would run for admin. If we even had just ten people who were all trying to do one check per week, I feel like we could take a breath. --valereee (talk) 11:59, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Oldest nominations needing DYK reviewers
We are back to the more usual longer lists of non-current nominations that need reviewing. There are 33 such nominations this time, those through October 19, all listed below. We have a total of 248 nominations, of which 167 have been approved. Thanks to everyone who reviews these, especially the four from September.
Over two months old:
- August 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Hermann Oestrich (ALT1 needs reviewing)
Over one month old:
September 2: Template:Did you know nominations/2019 Chungju World Martial Arts Masterships- September 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Madara Uchiha
September 20: Template:Did you know nominations/Merryll Saylan (more ALT hooks to review)September 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Niamh McEvoy (two articles)
Other old nominations:
October 3: Template:Did you know nominations/KEYZ (new ALT needs reviewing)- October 3: Template:Did you know nominations/HMS Sceptre (P215)
- October 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Gateway of India
October 6: Template:Did you know nominations/Lang AyreOctober 11: Template:Did you know nominations/Christof NelOctober 12: Template:Did you know nominations/John YstumllynOctober 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Judith (Matthus)October 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Siege of MasakaOctober 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Tell QudadiOctober 14: Template:Did you know nominations/Magnificat (Vivaldi)October 14: Template:Did you know nominations/Prehistoric Sites and Decorated Caves of the Vézère ValleyOctober 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Mirko Ludwig- October 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Institutes of Eminence
October 15: Template:Did you know nominations/John Cule- October 15: Template:Did you know nominations/List of accolades received by Red Dead Redemption 2
- October 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Development of Red Dead Redemption 2
October 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Music of Red Dead Redemption 2- October 15: Template:Did you know nominations/A Stanislaw Lem Reader
October 15: Template:Did you know nominations/List of honors received by John AshberyOctober 15: Template:Did you know nominations/Tymshare RETRIEVEOctober 16: Template:Did you know nominations/Helmuth FroschauerOctober 17: Template:Did you know nominations/Dinosaur Ridge (Gangwon)October 17: Template:Did you know nominations/Jeff Martin (tenor)- October 17: Template:Did you know nominations/Syritta pipiens
- October 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Laura Cooper
- October 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Francesco Filidei
- October 18: Template:Did you know nominations/Tony Renna
October 19: Template:Did you know nominations/Calvert Vaux Park- October 19: Template:Did you know nominations/Concentration of land ownership
- October 19: Template:Did you know nominations/Yashasvi Jaiswal
Please remember to cross off entries as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 01:16, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
When is a former draft eligible for DYK?
Does an article become ineligible if it spends more than 7 days as a draft in the Draft: or User: namespaces? Thanks! Airbornemihir (talk) 06:27, 27 October 2019 (UTC) (please ping when replying)
- No. The 7-day period starts when the article is moved into article space. It can linger endlessly in Draft or User space without losing eligibility. feminist (talk) 07:07, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
Prep 5: Jack Roxburgh
- ... that Jack Roxburgh introduced legislation on this day in 1964 to declare ice hockey Canada's national game, after disproving the myth that lacrosse held that distinction?
- I find this a bit misleading myself, as I assumed from this hook that the legislation was successful and that ice hockey was installed at the expense of lacrosse. But according to the article they were eventually both given the honour, as "winter national sport" and "summer national sport" respectively. I think this could do with a clarification. — Amakuru (talk) 09:33, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Pinging Yoninah Gerda Arendt Flibirigit MB who were involved with the hook nomination. — Amakuru (talk) 10:05, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think "introduce" is an open word, but may be wrong. How is this:
- ... that Jack Roxburgh introduced legislation on this day in 1964 to declare ice hockey Canada's national game, after disproving the myth that only lacrosse held that distinction?
- Pinging Yoninah Gerda Arendt Flibirigit MB who were involved with the hook nomination. — Amakuru (talk) 10:05, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I find this a bit misleading myself, as I assumed from this hook that the legislation was successful and that ice hockey was installed at the expense of lacrosse. But according to the article they were eventually both given the honour, as "winter national sport" and "summer national sport" respectively. I think this could do with a clarification. — Amakuru (talk) 09:33, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- It makes no difference to me. I won't be online much today. Flibirigit (talk) 14:21, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think the hook is fine. It is factually correct. He did disprove that Lacrosse was the national game and he did introduce legislation. Legislators propose laws all the time that are unsuccessful. The reader can read the article to find out more. MB 15:14, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think that the new proposal makes more sense, since it at least implies about the situation of ice hockey and lacrosse both being declared national sports of Canada, as opposed to just one or the other. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:17, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Rugby World Cup request
I've noticed that Prep 5 is the set due to run on 2 November and currently has an image hook. I've just nominated Template:Did you know nominations/2019 Rugby World Cup Final to run with a (I think good image). Could I ask if this could be reviewed for Prep 5 with the current image in there being moved up to Prep 4 which is lacking an image lead hook please? The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 11:40, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- Prep 4 has had its image hook moved to make way for a hook that has been in the Special occasion holding area for November 1 since October 9. Of course, it's up to promoters what they choose to do - and also whether they accept an article nominated for a special occasion less than the required minimum time before the date. RebeccaGreen (talk) 12:02, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- I'm wondering if it's a good idea to run an article in DYK before the event it describes has actually taken place. Although it's incredibly unlikely, what if it were postponed? Might it be better to run it on Sunday instead? Black Kite (talk) 17:51, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Black Kite: We do it all the time. For instance 2017 EFL Cup Final and 2019 FA Cup Final both ran on the day of the final and referred to it being "today". It's just following precedent. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 06:15, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Pulled hook: Template:Did you know nominations/Suli Lake
On 24 October, Gatoclass noted above that they had pulled several hooks which couldn't be verified. Two were resolved (sort of), but Template:Did you know nominations/Suli Lake has not been resolved, and seems not to have been reopened and returned to WP:DYKN. Could someone do that? Or if it's something that I could do, could someone please direct me to instructions on doing it? Cheers, RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:41, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- @RebeccaGreen: nomination has been reopened, and relisted under August 9. @LlywelynII: has been pinged on the nomination template, and given a courtesy notification on his own talk page. — Maile (talk) 18:23, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
- That's right, I didn't bother reopening the nomination because I brought it to this page for discussion instead, and had already stated my intention to re-check the hook when I can find the time, so reopening the nomination served no purpose. Gatoclass (talk) 10:48, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
Queue 1 - before tomorrow's mainpage - Patrick Lin (cinematographer)
Queue 1 has a hook that says "... that Pixar cinematographer Patrick Lin pioneered the use of a visual lens based on an actual camera lens in Inside Out?
I was wondering what a "visual lens" was. The article also says that, "On Inside Out, he pioneered Pixar's first use of a visual camera lens based on an actual camera lens, so that the animation appears to be filmed on an actual camera." (What are non-visual lenses, I wondered?)
The source [2], however, says "Patrick Lin applied his experience as a live-action cinematographer to push the studio in two new, history-making directions: (1) The first virtual lens to be modeled on a real-world camera lens. Mathematically true to a real camera, Pixar’s virtual lens has the ability to move on a track, dolly, or even appear to be hand-held. Lin and his team did this to help viewers distinguish between the interior and exterior worlds of the film."
I have changed 'visual' to 'virtual' in the article. Could someone please check this and change it in the hook, if you agree that that's what it should be? This will go on the main page in about 10 hours from now! RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:42, 28 October 2019 (UTC)
- Congratulations! Cwmhiraeth (talk) 06:28, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
DYK check error
I expanded Oecanthus fultoni from 573 characters to 2,900 characters. DYK check on the article is messed up for some reason and says "Assuming article is at 5x now, expansion began 44 edits ago on August 30, 2014 Article has not been created or expanded 5x or promoted to Good Article within the past 10 days (1885 days)". I know that I have 215 characters more than is needed, but I was wondering if anyone else is experiencing this and if there is a fix. SL93 (talk) 05:01, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Interestingly enough, I fixed a typo in the article and tried the tool again. It worked. SL93 (talk) 05:05, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Prep 2 for tomorrow - Rhynocoris longifrons
@Gatoclass: Having noticed that you are finding some issues with the hooks, I had a look at this one. I have replaced one url that led to a completely different article with one for the cited article (source 4), and replaced citations to source 4 in the final para with citations to source 5, which does contain the information presented in that para. So the hook should be OK now. I must admit, I would have gone with something more hooky like
"... that the assassin bug Rhynocoris longifrons is attracted to the smell of moth larvae?"
(And I won't be butting in on any more hooks tonight - it's bedtime here!) RebeccaGreen (talk) 13:35, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Pinging nominator Cwmhiraeth. Yoninah (talk) 13:41, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks, I should have done that. This hook is currently in Prep 6. RebeccaGreen (talk) 14:12, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- I wanted to explain how assassin bugs feed and got the citation from the Reduviidae or another article but could not access the cited paper. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 18:44, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Prep 1 - Book of Gutsy Women
- ... that the mother-and-daughter authors of The Book of Gutsy Women explain what 17th-century nun Juana Inés de la Cruz and climate activist Greta Thunberg have in common?
- The Book of Gutsy Women – Wasted Time R () () – View nom subpage
- I moved this from p2 to p1 in order to allow some time for more discussion of this hook. There is no indication in the article, or the provided source, that these two women are directly compared in any way in the book. Rather, the implication seems to be that what these two have in common is that they are both "gutsy women". However, this is self-evident from the book title. Self-evident hooks are by definition uninteresting. IMO this hook either needs to be refactored, or a new hook found.
Please note that I will be unable to contribute further to this discussion until I am back online tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 14:56, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- How is this then:
- ... that the mother-and-daughter authors of The Book of Gutsy Women portrayed, among others, the 17th-century nun Juana Inés de la Cruz and climate activist Greta Thunberg? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:17, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
RfC regarding consumer products in DYK
Over the past 1.5 months or so reviewers at DYK have raised concerns regarding currently available commercial products going on the front page as a DYK (newly-released smartphones in particular). They have thought that such newly-released smartphones may act as a form of advertising. Thus, after several discussions that failed to gain meaningful progress, I am holding this RfC to get the opinions of other editors on the suitability of the inclusion of currently available commercial products at DYK. Taewangkorea (talk) 20:47, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment This is the first time I held an RfC so tell me if I missed anything Taewangkorea (talk) 20:49, 29 October 2019 (UTC)
Support/Oppose/Comments
- Neutral comment - I understand that technology products might jump out as free advertising. But if we put the kibosh on technology products, we should put it in writing in the rules/guidelines. Also, if new technology products are restricted, is that where we draw the line? How about upcoming movie/film openings? A recently released book, music, or other popular culture? Do we omit upcoming events like special commemorative celebrations of television shows, or film series? I understand the concern about the technology gadgets. But why are we limiting it to just that product? Doesn't the same hold true for any commercial output? — Maile (talk) 01:03, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose DYK inclusion while "news", but more broadly. I agree with both Yoninah and Maile66 on the scope of the issue (and am more critical of it, apparently, than Maile66); it's not just about "technology products". That said, an article otherwise eligible for DYK should remain so, until whatever cut-off period that no longer seems promotional has passed, then start the counter again, as it were. We shouldn't deny DYK for something just because it's commercial, just wait until after it will no longer seem like en.wp acting as an advertising venue. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼 04:33, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Neutral May change my mind later after some thought, but I'm not sure what exactly would be better than the status quo. Prior to Citizens United v. FEC, the McCain-Feingold Act established a 60 day blackout period for "electioneering communications"; maybe we can take a cue from an arbitrary standard the US Supreme Court struck down (this is a completely serious suggestion BTW). Something like, hooks for a product may not be run within 60 days of that product's release? Wug·a·po·des 04:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I'm ok with "currently available", but agree "new" should normally be not allowed - a 60-day rule may be sensible. I'd want exceptions for events like sports tournaments, even though these are highly commercial, and things like art exhibitions (which have sort-of been done at TFA), building openings etc. Generally, things like books, albums & films are better after there's been time for the reviews have come in anyway. Johnbod (talk) 05:14, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I lean towards not allowing anything that appears promotional of any commercial product or event. · · · Peter Southwood (talk): 05:30, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment I am not sure that going by dates helps to determine what is promotional and what is not, or how else we might do it. For locations and venues, a hook might attract attention to the place regardless of how long it has existed. If it was a book, would we count from the date of first publication only? What about different dates of publication in different countries? Later editions? Even with technology products, they're not always available at the same time in all countries, so which date would we use? (I can't imagine how elections worked with a 60 day blackout period - a lot of elections aren't even called that long before the date!) RebeccaGreen (talk) 08:58, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Comment - What exactly is the proposal here? This just seems to be a statement that there hasn't been a suitable consensus, but there isn't anything to !support or !oppose. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 09:02, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think it's simply if articles on tech products can be featured on DYK. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- I mean, we can assume that, but we can't oppose/support a change to policy that hasn't been suggested. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 10:03, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think it's simply if articles on tech products can be featured on DYK. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose blanket ban in favor of encouraging greater scrutiny in reviewing said hooks - A blanket ban feels like instruction creep, and as suggested in an earlier discussion, may be discouraging or be considered unfair for people who have an editing interest in said topics. With that said, instead of a blanket ban, I would suggest that reviewers would be encouraged to give greater scrutiny to hooks involving that topic to ensure that hooks don't sound promotional, even perhaps needing to fail nominations where no suitably non-promotional hook could be proposed. The problem here of course is to how to define "non-promotional" as the line can be blurry at times, though consensus and discussion can help out in such cases. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose blanket ban per Narutolovehinata5, particularly that we should not discriminate against those who are interested in writing about such topics. I'd also note that at this point, the number of tech products on DYK is not unmanageable. It's not uncommon for us to get a spree of articles concerning one particular topic from time to time. feminist (talk) 09:49, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose blanket ban. New things are one of the natural causes of new articles, which is what DYK is about. (The hook for one of mine, about a new book, is discussed in the section right above this.) So there's nothing wrong the main page having a hook about a new thing. The hook should be neutral and not overly promotional, just as the article itself should be neutral and not overly promotional. But that should be judged on a case-by-case basis. Wasted Time R (talk) 10:24, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Oppose blanket ban. Each suggestion on their own. How many new products you think will be sold solely because of Wikipedia's mentioning on the Main page, vs. advertisement etc? My guess: zero. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:07, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Support blanket ban on newly commercially-available products/books/movies/whatever. I know that's not popular, but I think we probably shouldn't be putting links to these on the main page. It's an invitation to UPEs. I would think waiting two months or whatever, then forgiving the 7-day creation requirement, would be a good solution to the fairness issue. That said, I'd be willing to try simply scrutinizing these hooks much more rigorously. They need to be not about standard features -- a feature needs to be highly unusual, even groundbreaking, to be mentioned -- and honestly if there's nothing really interesting about the product, if it's just another phone that's been upgraded to a new version, it needs to be failed. --valereee (talk) 14:27, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Template:Did you know nominations/Maryul
Kautilya3 Zanhe I see this has been discussed at the nom, but I'm still confused. Maryul of Ngaris means "lowland of West Tibet", but the article doesn't say that Ngaris is West Tibet. It says that Maryul of Ngaris means lowland of Ngari, and that Maryul was a West Tibetan kingdom. Is that enough to convey that Ngari is/was West Tibet? Normally we'd link to Ngari within the article to provide that context, but in this case we intentionally are not linking to it because it doesn't provide help, and instead the article simply links to Tibet. If this weren't an issue involving the hook, it wouldn't matter, but I was flipping back and forth between nom and article trying to figure this out. --valereee (talk) 12:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- I think adding a note in the lead, right after the translation, which connects Ngaris with West Tibet would be the solution. Yoninah (talk) 13:10, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
Article not in special occasion area
I had requested November 1 for XHFAMX-TDT and it somehow never got into the special occasion holding area, so now it's not in the appropriate queue. The hook is timed to the launch of this TV station. Any potential remedy? Raymie (t • c) 18:14, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
@Yoninah: you and I are doing the same dance on this one. So, please finish it how you think it should look. — Maile (talk) 19:32, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
- Sure. BTW this illustrates the importance of making sure approved hooks are moved to the special occasion holding area. Prep builders are not mind-readers; we usually don't comb the nominations page looking for special occasion requests. Nominators must ask closing reviewers to move the nomination to the special occasion holding area as soon as they get the tick. Yoninah (talk) 19:37, 30 October 2019 (UTC)
DYK is almost overdue
In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:
- Check the prep areas; if there are between 6 and 10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
- Once completed edit queue #3 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
- Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page
Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 22:08, 30 October 2019 (UTC)