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::Not one of those editors added a single argumednt to this discussion. Not one. (that includes you, EEng: even you are still WIKILAWYERING about BRD etc etc). |
::Not one of those editors added a single argumednt to this discussion. Not one. (that includes you, EEng: even you are still WIKILAWYERING about BRD etc etc). |
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::You still have not made a single body argument against my edit. - [[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 03:23, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
::You still have not made a single body argument against my edit. - [[User:DePiep|DePiep]] ([[User talk:DePiep|talk]]) 03:23, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
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:::<sigh> I forgot to mention that your limited English may be interfering with your ability to understand policies and guidelines and what others are trying to tell you. [[User:EEng#s|<b style="color: red;">E</b>]][[User talk:EEng#s|<b style="color: blue;">Eng</b>]] 03:40, 4 May 2018 (UTC) |
Revision as of 03:43, 4 May 2018
Did you know? | |
---|---|
Introduction and rules | |
Introduction | WP:DYK |
General discussion | WT:DYK |
Guidelines | WP:DYKCRIT |
Reviewer instructions | WP:DYKRI |
Nominations | |
Nominate an article | WP:DYKCNN |
Awaiting approval | WP:DYKN |
Approved | WP:DYKNA |
April 1 hooks | WP:DYKAPRIL |
Preparation | |
Preps and queues | T:DYK/Q |
Prepper instructions | WP:DYKPBI |
Admin instructions | WP:DYKAI |
Main Page errors | WP:ERRORS |
History | |
Statistics | WP:DYKSTATS |
Archived sets | WP:DYKA |
Just for fun | |
Monthly wraps | WP:DYKW |
Awards | WP:DYKAWARDS |
Userboxes | WP:DYKUBX |
Hall of Fame | WP:DYK/HoF |
List of users ... | |
... by nominations | WP:DYKNC |
... by promotions | WP:DYKPC |
Administrative | |
Scripts and bots | WP:DYKSB |
On the Main Page | |
WP:Errors | WP:Errors |
To ping the DYK admins | {{DYK admins}} |
Index no archives yet (create) |
This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies and processes can be discussed.
Do you have a suggestion for improving DYK, or would like to comment on the suggestions of others? Have your say at Wikipedia:Did you know/2017 reform proposals.
Eight errors in two sets
Folks, the previous and current set exhibited eight errors from sixteen hooks. While the burn rate has increased and I advocated it, please don't let such vast numbers of issues get to the main page. And worse, once they're on the main page, please don't let them stay there, or even worse, defend them. It just makes DYK and Wikipedia look incredibly stupid. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:54, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
- I'm shocked at the amount of ink spilled on administrators arguing back and forth about a hook point, when the nominator in each case could have been pinged to clear things up. Yoninah (talk) 20:05, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
- Nominators should step up to the mark and follow their nominations all the way through to the main page. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:55, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Request for extra length (few more characters) for a DYK on
Please see Template:Did you know nominations/Report to the Secretary on the Acquiescence of This Government in the Murder of the Jews. Because the name of the article is very long, enforcing the usual 200 characters rule will make it unfairly brief. Per User:BlueMoonset's suggestion, I am posting here as I would like to request an exception to this rule to run the proposed hook at about 250 characters. I'd hope this wouldn't break the Main Page too much :> --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:44, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- Per WP:DYKHOOK "The hook should be concise: fewer than about 200 characters [...]" (emphasis added). I interpret it that the title of the article does not count to the 200 character limit, Otherwise, an article whose legitimate title is very long cannot really be used for DYK for no other reason than this. As it stands, the point of the rule is to "hook" people in, to generate interest in the article. In this specific case, though, a shorter hook can be conceived without removing the article title, e.g.
- ... that the 1944 Report to the Secretary on the Acquiescence of This Government in the Murder of the Jews convinced Roosevelt to create the War Refugee Board? (155 characters)
- ... that the 1944 Report to the Secretary on the Acquiescence of This Government in the Murder of the Jews criticized the US State Department for alleged obstructionism and conspiracies? (182 characters)
- ... that the 1944 Report to the Secretary on the Acquiescence of This Government in the Murder of the Jews alleged that the US State Department prevented the rescue of European Jews during the Holocaust? (199 characters)
- Regards SoWhy 09:05, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- SoWhy, the article bold link has always been included in the 200-character count, whether it's short or long. See, for example, WP:DYKSG#C3, where multiple-article hooks get to except all but one bold link from the count. The quote you gave comes from the early part of DYKHOOK; it also says While 200 is an outside limit, which seems quite clear. However, there are exceptions to everything, and I could see an argument to letting such an unusually long article name run a bit over (but nothing like 40 or 50 characters over). In this case, you've demonstrated that good hooks can be found that don't exceed the limit with an 89-character hook, and that's typically the case; right now, in Queue 2, we have bolded article names of 44 and 48 characters fitting in 131- and 134-character hooks respectively. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:12, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- Normally, I try to keep the bolded article original, but in this case, could we pipe it? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- The part about "Murder of Jews" will draw a lot of clicks. Perhaps pipe it to "the Report on the Acquiescence of This Government in the Murder of the Jews..."? Yoninah (talk) 11:13, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
- Agreed, that's what I suggested earlier. And for the record, the 3rd of the proposed hooks above is good, should draw a lot of clicks and I think it is well sourced in the article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 09:57, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- The part about "Murder of Jews" will draw a lot of clicks. Perhaps pipe it to "the Report on the Acquiescence of This Government in the Murder of the Jews..."? Yoninah (talk) 11:13, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
Hook promotion needed
I've approved Template:Did you know nominations/2015 White Sox–Orioles crowdless game and reserved a special occasion slot for it in Prep 6. Could someone else promote it please? Yoninah (talk) 19:00, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Is there a reason why the Archives page doesn't have edit links on it anymore? They made it much easier to go set by set and promote hooks to WP:DYKSTATS. Yoninah (talk) 20:45, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- It's because it transcludes {{DYK archive header}} and that includes
__NONEWSECTIONLINK____NOEDITSECTION__
which was added with this edit by DePiep on April 12. Regards SoWhy 09:24, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Template:Did you know nominations/116th Infantry Regiment (United States)
An admin removed this hook from the main page, so it needs to run again. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:11, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
- No, it had its chance and blew it. The promoter and admins involved should have seen this coming. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:20, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Archive out of synch
The archive page] has been a day out of synch since 2nd April. Did we have 3 sets on 1st April? The individual talk page entries seem correct, but the "2nd April" set seem to have actually run on the 1st. Johnbod (talk) 02:05, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- The last set of a day (which may be the only one) gets archived with the date of the next day. As long as I watch, and still annoying. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:20, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, thanks Gerda - wierd. Is this necessary? Johnbod (talk) 14:05, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- I guess setting the clock back would need some effort, + checking if the set was up the calendar day before. - I am surprised that you see only now that "recent additions" usually don't have the hook in question, because of it. - Village pump? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:20, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- The time given is the time that the set is archived, not the time that the set was promoted. It's unfortunately confusing, but the page shown is the one as its being archived, so it reflects all the edits made to the set while it was on the main page. Among other things, pulled hooks are not archived along with the set they started with but were subsequently deleted from. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:07, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Prep 4
- ... that the Goat Canyon Trestle (pictured), the world's largest curved wooden trestle, was built over Goat Canyon?
- @RightCowLeftCoast: @Gerda Arendt: @Narutolovehinata5:
- For a lead image hook, this seems rather pedestrian. Perhaps it could be tightened to remove the repetition ("Goat Canyon"..."Goat Canyon"; "trestle"..."trestle"), or a new hook found. Yoninah (talk) 09:24, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- Please remember, it was meant to be about the trestle, which couldn't be nominated a second time, so can't be repeated enough ;) - I don't know another word for trestle, anybody? Or pipe, to really make sure that the bolded article is not it?
- ALT1: ... that the world's largest curved wooden trestle (pictured) was built over the Goat Canyon? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:16, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: that works for me. Thanks for proposing the alt. also eliminating the prior to Goat Canyon works as well, this reading:
...that the world's largest curved wooden trestle (pictured) was built over Goat Canyon?
- --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:54, 27 April 2018 (UTC)--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 16:54, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: that works for me. Thanks for proposing the alt. also eliminating the prior to Goat Canyon works as well, this reading:
DYK is almost overdue
In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:
- Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
- Once completed edit queue #2 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
- Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page
Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 10:55, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
Can someone take a look...
No one notified me of this closure, nor that any decision was about to be made. The entire thing comes down to a disagreement between me and the reviewer, and I don't see any reason given for the closure. Maury Markowitz (talk) 13:43, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
@Mark Miller and Coffee: Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 23:06, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
- For whatever it's worth, Coffee did the same thing with this nomination. Although this was in response to a genuine issue—not enough reliable sources, and admittedly I had taken my time in adding them—the custom at DYK seems to be to take a few days after marking a nomination as "rejected" before actually closing it, in order to give the nominator a last chance at fixing the issues. In that case, I just undid the edit that closed the nomination, and the hook ran after I added some sources. Coffee, perhaps you could speak to your reasons for marking for closure and actually closing nominations in one go, and perhaps you would consider waiting a few days in the future? --Usernameunique (talk) 01:11, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- Blame would be inappropriate, but I think it's considerate to give a nominator a few days notice before closing. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:41, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- I don't mind it being re-opened but the discussion seemed to have basically ended and my concerns that the source did not fully support the hook as written didn't seem to be agreed on by the nom. Perhaps with fresh new eyes this might do better.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:34, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
- Blame would be inappropriate, but I think it's considerate to give a nominator a few days notice before closing. --Usernameunique (talk) 01:41, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
I just reviewed Template:Did you know nominations/Louise Mitchell, and did not approve it. The issues I raised are policy issues, specifically an excessive degree of plot summary in the article, and lack of citations for much of it. I would appreciate a second look from an editor with more DYK experience. DES (talk)DESiegel Contribs 13:00, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Orphaned nomination
Gatoclass orphaned my nomination Template:Did you know nominations/Three-gap theorem and then has apparently gone offline, not responding to my requests to fix the damage they created. Since Gatoclass isn't doing it, can someone who knows where it is supposed to go un-orphan it, please? —David Eppstein (talk) 18:36, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- No David, I haven't gone offline (yet), and I was just about to reply to this on the nomination page. I have no idea why the bot left you an error message, AFAIK it's never done that before, and no "damage" has been done, I keep track of all the nominations I pull so this wasn't about to get lost. The reason I pulled your hook was to ensure that your nomination didn't get yanked prematurely after five minutes on the main page for unsourced content, okay? This was done for your benefit as much as for the project's. Now with regard to the issue at hand, you have now sourced the relevant passage so it's no longer an issue. I will look to restore this nomination to the queue when I have time to complete verification, which won't be today because I don't have the wherewithal to do so now, so I'll try to get it wrapped up tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 18:49, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- The bot left me an error message because when you removed the nomination from the queue you did not link it anywhere else. You just left it orphaned. And you didn't even tell me about your actions, so I only found out because of the bot. When you pull nominations, you need to put them somewhere in-process, not in your private little hidyhole where only you can fiddle with them. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:55, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- They are not going into a "private little hideyhole", I assume the nominators have the nomination on their watchlist and most of them do and get back to me quickly. If they don't get back to me in a few days, I will ping them to ensure they are able to respond. I have a very heavy workload at the moment trying to keep all the sets verified during the 12-hour cycle, skipping returning the nomination to the nomination page saves time and in 99% of cases it's not necessary to do so as the issue is sorted out quickly - as it was in this instance. Gatoclass (talk) 19:04, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- They are in a private little hideyhole in the sense that they are not in any queues, not in any holding area, not in the approved list, not in the main nomination area: linked nowhere, in fact, except via this discussion here and on my talk, a QPQ on a different nom, and wherever it is you list the nominations that you have pulled from the queue and not put back anywhere else. 30 hours later and you have still not done anything about it. And your waffle about these actions having fixed the problem is just waffle: I only found out about it by the bot (when you un-ticked it you did not send any notification) and the repeated footnote I added was merely on a restatement of the same already-sourced result, not for the half-paragraph of routine calculation that you are demanding sources for. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:03, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not a mathematician so I wouldn't know whether they are "routine calculations" or not. I saw some uncited content and since many hooks have been yanked from the main page for the same issue, pulled the hook for further discussion to be on the safe side. I should emphasize that once I have pulled a hook, I am under absolutely no obligation to follow up on the nomination, but do so as a courtesy to the nominator. So if you prefer, next time I find an issue with one of your nominations, instead of fielding the nomination myself I will go by the book, return it to the nominations page where everybody can see it - and leave it there, to languish for perhaps a month or two until somebody gets around to re-approving it. Alternatively, I can stop bothering to verify your hooks altogether and just allow them to pass through to the main page sight unseen, that way you will have nobody to blame but yourself if they get yanked after five minutes. I'm easy either way. Gatoclass (talk) 13:42, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- Or you could, I don't know, tell people what you're doing instead of making it look like the nomination does not exist anywhere and not even notifying them that there is an issue. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- As I said, normally I don't need to because people have the nomination on their watchlist and get back to me quickly. But since you've made the request, if in future I find an issue in one of your nominations that needs addressing, I'll be sure to give you a ping. Gatoclass (talk) 17:03, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- Thank you. And in future I'll know that when you remove items from queues in this way, they haven't been orphaned and forgotten. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:05, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- As I said, normally I don't need to because people have the nomination on their watchlist and get back to me quickly. But since you've made the request, if in future I find an issue in one of your nominations that needs addressing, I'll be sure to give you a ping. Gatoclass (talk) 17:03, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- Or you could, I don't know, tell people what you're doing instead of making it look like the nomination does not exist anywhere and not even notifying them that there is an issue. —David Eppstein (talk) 16:32, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- I'm not a mathematician so I wouldn't know whether they are "routine calculations" or not. I saw some uncited content and since many hooks have been yanked from the main page for the same issue, pulled the hook for further discussion to be on the safe side. I should emphasize that once I have pulled a hook, I am under absolutely no obligation to follow up on the nomination, but do so as a courtesy to the nominator. So if you prefer, next time I find an issue with one of your nominations, instead of fielding the nomination myself I will go by the book, return it to the nominations page where everybody can see it - and leave it there, to languish for perhaps a month or two until somebody gets around to re-approving it. Alternatively, I can stop bothering to verify your hooks altogether and just allow them to pass through to the main page sight unseen, that way you will have nobody to blame but yourself if they get yanked after five minutes. I'm easy either way. Gatoclass (talk) 13:42, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- They are in a private little hideyhole in the sense that they are not in any queues, not in any holding area, not in the approved list, not in the main nomination area: linked nowhere, in fact, except via this discussion here and on my talk, a QPQ on a different nom, and wherever it is you list the nominations that you have pulled from the queue and not put back anywhere else. 30 hours later and you have still not done anything about it. And your waffle about these actions having fixed the problem is just waffle: I only found out about it by the bot (when you un-ticked it you did not send any notification) and the repeated footnote I added was merely on a restatement of the same already-sourced result, not for the half-paragraph of routine calculation that you are demanding sources for. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:03, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
- They are not going into a "private little hideyhole", I assume the nominators have the nomination on their watchlist and most of them do and get back to me quickly. If they don't get back to me in a few days, I will ping them to ensure they are able to respond. I have a very heavy workload at the moment trying to keep all the sets verified during the 12-hour cycle, skipping returning the nomination to the nomination page saves time and in 99% of cases it's not necessary to do so as the issue is sorted out quickly - as it was in this instance. Gatoclass (talk) 19:04, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- The bot left me an error message because when you removed the nomination from the queue you did not link it anywhere else. You just left it orphaned. And you didn't even tell me about your actions, so I only found out because of the bot. When you pull nominations, you need to put them somewhere in-process, not in your private little hidyhole where only you can fiddle with them. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:55, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Very interesting reading. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:08, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
- I just noticed that Template:Did you know nominations/Goat Canyon (Carrizo Gorge) was pulled from Queue 4 but couldn't find it back on WP:DYKN or WP:DYKNA. Interestingly, discussion continues on the template. I relisted it at WP:DYKN; maybe more eyes will see it. Yoninah (talk) 23:02, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- It seems to happen fairly often—I recently relisted two of mine, Stephen J. Herben Jr. and Julian D. Richards. Not sure what all the fuss is about; the bot just provides a friendly reminder that a DYK nomination is untranscluded, and the 30-second fix is to post the nomination back on the nominations page. --Usernameunique (talk) 00:26, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Nominations by blocked sockpuppet
I've noticed several nominations by SirEdimon, a user indef-blocked for sockpuppetry (see Template:Did you know nominations/Sílvia Rebelo, Template:Did you know nominations/Matilde Fidalgo and Template:Did you know nominations/Andreia Norton). The articles seem fine, although the nominations are generally flawed (hook too long and no QPQ, and it's hard to verify the QPQ status for users with multiple accounts). Do we have a policy regarding nominations by blocked sockpuppets? Should we simply reject them or try to fix the issues for the sock? -Zanhe (talk) 18:16, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
- Zanhe, there were four nominations from SirEdimon in toto; you've not mentioned Template:Did you know nominations/Fátima Pinto. We had discussions here on the DYK talk page on this one and on Template:Did you know nominations/Andreia Norton; the Fátima Pinto one was recently archived, and the Andreia Norton one is still on this page but will be archived this evening or tomorrow sometime. Please see the general comments there. SirEdimon has only nominated for DYK from that particular account, and only has the four nominations made starting in April, so there is no QPQ requirement. There hasn't been any move to refuse the nominations en masse, and a shorter hook has been proposed for the one you reviewed. (We tend to be more strict when previously blocked return sockpuppeteers are concerned, but even then the nominations are occasionally rescued; this is SirEdimon's first time being caught and blocked.) BlueMoonset (talk) 00:57, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- @BlueMoonset: Thanks for the comment. I went ahead and approved the Andreia Norton nomination. -Zanhe (talk) 00:14, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Does current events portal make nom invalid?
I have got a DYK nomination that has been featured before at a current events portal. It is the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Japan article. Two questions:
- Was it the main link that was featured on the front page?
- Does this make the DYK nomination invalid?
Thanks for any replies.--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 20:28, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Farang Rak Tham: Well under section 1.d of WP:DYKRULES it does state that only ITN and OTD make a DYK ineligible so if it has appeared in a portal then it is eligible to appear on DYK. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 21:41, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- Thanks very much, The C of E!--Farang Rak Tham (Talk) 22:47, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
Prep 1 - shipwrecks
- " ... that 25 shipwrecks and scuttlings have been recorded at Long Reef?" Yoninah, Cwmhiraeth, Casliber, Paul 012.
The article states "There is a record of 25 shipwrecks and scuttlings associated with Long Reef on the Australian National Shipwreck Database.[12]", ref 12 leads to a generic main page with no sight of verification of the claim. I stumbled around a bit, and finally found some results in a search on "Long reef", but no sign of the word "scuttlings" anywhere. I think, as a minimum, the article should explain how to find the results, how to go from 26 hits down to 25, and why the hook has the word scuttlings, yet the source to verify it doesn't mention the term at all. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:38, 1 May 2018 (UTC)
- The database seems to record the ships that have sunk, not just those that have been wrecked. If you click on an individual ship in the search results for the register, such as "Ferry pontoon", you will see that it was scuttled in 1980. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:14, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- So the hook fails the DYK rules, the claim is not referenced by an inline citation. It's referenced by a database which you have to understand how to use, what results to discount and what how to determine that some were as a result of scuttling. This is a fail. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:19, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- In any case, 25 "shipwrecks and scuttlings" is incorrect as many of these were accidental sinkings (scuttling is deliberate, and shipwrecks require an actual wrecking). "Shipwrecks and sinkings" would be more accurate, but agree it could also do with an easier-to-follow source. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:31, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Pull please, so we can resolve this before it gets protected by an enthusiastic admin. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Looks like everyone but the page creator was alerted to this. Courtesy ping to User:Filikovalo. Yoninah (talk) 12:37, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Pull please, so we can resolve this before it gets protected by an enthusiastic admin. The Rambling Man (talk) 09:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- In any case, 25 "shipwrecks and scuttlings" is incorrect as many of these were accidental sinkings (scuttling is deliberate, and shipwrecks require an actual wrecking). "Shipwrecks and sinkings" would be more accurate, but agree it could also do with an easier-to-follow source. -- Euryalus (talk) 09:31, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- So the hook fails the DYK rules, the claim is not referenced by an inline citation. It's referenced by a database which you have to understand how to use, what results to discount and what how to determine that some were as a result of scuttling. This is a fail. The Rambling Man (talk) 08:19, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
I changed the url to point directly to the search page. I really don't understand Euryalus's point at all since the hook states "shipwrecks and scuttlings" both of which are listed in the database (and in other article sources). But I'm changing the hook to say "at least" because there are several scuttlings listed in the article that are not listed in the database. Gatoclass (talk) 14:07, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Gatoclass: Thanks for the ping. My point is it should simply read "shipwrecks and sinkings" or even just "sinkings." Scuttling and shipwrecking are specific forms of destruction of a ship. They are both subsets of sinkings, but it's also possible for a vessel to just go down of its own accord without being either scuttled or shipwrecked. For example, this historic one. The database does make the distinction between scuttling, shipwreck and sinking in each of the individual entries for vessels. There aren't 25 entries for scuttling or shipwreck In this case, so we would be better off using a more catch-all term like sinkings, which covers every cause for a vessel actually going down.
- Not the end of the world either way, but (at least in my view) it would improve the accuracy of the hook. -- Euryalus (talk) 20:35, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- So the hook isn't verified properly. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:20, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- I would pull it and come up with a hook that can be suitably verified per the DYK rules. Even linking to a search page does not verify the hook as it lists only 25 directly related shipwrecks, so this is really not good enough. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:37, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you don't like that source (and I can see nothing wrong with it), there is also this one (cite 10 in the article) which lists 30 ships wrecked off Long Reef. Gatoclass (talk) 15:03, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- @Gatoclass: That's a much clearer source, thanks - also indicates 29 vessels sunk off Long Reef. -- Euryalus (talk) 23:14, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- What I don't like is the endless defence of items which are about to be protected and end up on the main page when clearly there are recognised issues. We should not be discussing them in detail here, just pull the hook, re-open the nomination and look for a better solution. There is no deadline. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:10, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- The hook is sourced and there is no reason to pull it. But if you still see a problem with it, explain what it is so we can fix it now. The hook won't appear for almost another 12 hours so there's no reason to pull it when we can resolve the matter here and now. Gatoclass (talk) 15:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, so only two things wrong at the moment (besides the dreadful note that's been added, but that's the least of our concerns), there is still no way of a casual reader verifying the claim based on the URL given in the citation. They need to type in "Long Reef" in the search engine link you've provided, and then discount the one that isn't relevant. And then, the second problem, as noted by Euryalus above, and by me, these aren't necessarily scuttlings. Worse still that "scuttling" doesn't even appear in any of these links. So yes, please do fix it, preferably by removing it so it can be discussed again at the nomination page. Basically, and you already know this I'm sure, this fails the DYK rules. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:26, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, of course they aren't necessarily scuttlings, they are both shipwrecks and scuttlings, which is what the hook says. As for the database source, it's perfectly valid as a source, hundreds of articles including former DYKs use databases as sources, and I think most readers are smart enough to figure out how to use one for themselves, but since you want to make an issue out of it, I'll add a note with instructions. Gatoclass (talk) 15:39, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- The source doesn't mention "scuttlings" at all. Come on, get with the program here. This continual, incremental, interminable defence of poorly quality controlled DYK items is becoming disruptive. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes it does. The cause of each sinking can be found in the individual ship links, as explained in the note I added. Gatoclass (talk) 16:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, the source provided with the hook does not mention it. You have to go digging into the source to find it. That's not what the rule says, and even if you don't care because you're the DYK admin, it's not the spirit of the rule either. This is borderline hopeless trying to deal with you here I'm afraid. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:06, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes it does. The cause of each sinking can be found in the individual ship links, as explained in the note I added. Gatoclass (talk) 16:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- The source doesn't mention "scuttlings" at all. Come on, get with the program here. This continual, incremental, interminable defence of poorly quality controlled DYK items is becoming disruptive. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:49, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Yes, of course they aren't necessarily scuttlings, they are both shipwrecks and scuttlings, which is what the hook says. As for the database source, it's perfectly valid as a source, hundreds of articles including former DYKs use databases as sources, and I think most readers are smart enough to figure out how to use one for themselves, but since you want to make an issue out of it, I'll add a note with instructions. Gatoclass (talk) 15:39, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ok, so only two things wrong at the moment (besides the dreadful note that's been added, but that's the least of our concerns), there is still no way of a casual reader verifying the claim based on the URL given in the citation. They need to type in "Long Reef" in the search engine link you've provided, and then discount the one that isn't relevant. And then, the second problem, as noted by Euryalus above, and by me, these aren't necessarily scuttlings. Worse still that "scuttling" doesn't even appear in any of these links. So yes, please do fix it, preferably by removing it so it can be discussed again at the nomination page. Basically, and you already know this I'm sure, this fails the DYK rules. The Rambling Man (talk) 15:26, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- The hook is sourced and there is no reason to pull it. But if you still see a problem with it, explain what it is so we can fix it now. The hook won't appear for almost another 12 hours so there's no reason to pull it when we can resolve the matter here and now. Gatoclass (talk) 15:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- If you don't like that source (and I can see nothing wrong with it), there is also this one (cite 10 in the article) which lists 30 ships wrecked off Long Reef. Gatoclass (talk) 15:03, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Here's an idea. Change the hook to something like "despite the fact that over 25 ships have sunk at Long Reef, no lighthouse was ever built" or something like that. Otherwise, pull it, the sourcing isn't transparent enough. Black Kite (talk) 17:39, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- It took me about one minute flat to confirm the hook from the source. There are thousands of articles on Wikipedia with facts sourced to databases, scores of them previously used to support DYK hooks, and AFAIK nobody has ever complained that they are not viable as sources or "too hard" to use, indeed, half of the hooks I fact check every day are harder to check than this one. But you can do what you like with this, I'm done wasting my time on it. Gatoclass (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- You're not the average reader though are you? And this clearly didn't comply with the DYK rules. And in actuality, you should be able to verify the hook in less than a minute if the article and sourcing is compliant with the DYK rules. I had hoped this was obvious. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:01, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- On reflection, I've pulled it, because in looking at the changes I recently made, I think Black Kite has a point in that the hook requires comparison between two different sources to confirm it. In any case, I think the whole paragraph could be better expressed. Gatoclass (talk) 18:40, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well that was easy enough. Next! Interesting though that you thought Black Kite's "sourcing isn't transparent enough" was sufficient to pull, yet you ardently argued against my "leads to a generic main page with no sight of verification of the claim. I stumbled around a bit, and finally found some results in a search on "Long reef", but no sign of the word "scuttlings" anywhere.". Once again I think you should leave the reports I make to others because there's clearly a different standard being applied to different editors here. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not at all! Your complaint, specifically, was that it was too hard to use a database to verify a hook. That is the argument I rejected, and I still reject it. Black Kite on the other hand, made a generic comment that the sourcing wasn't transparent enough, without saying exactly what he meant. I went back to make one more check of the article, just to be sure I hadn't missed something, and noticed that my changes relied on a comparison of two sources, thought maybe that's what Black Kite was referring to, and decided to pull the hook on that basis. Now if you'd said to me from the outset that it was too hard to make the comparison, I probably would have responded positively to that, but that's not the point you were making. Gatoclass (talk) 19:40, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, so a specific complaint about the fact that it failed the DYK rules and was not what our readers expect to have go through to verify a hook was not acceptable to pull the hook while a generic comment about non-transparent sourcing was enough. Brilliant. You're too involved to deal with anything I post here, and I request that you leave any issues I raise here to others to handle because I wasted a LOT of time on this, thanks to you. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, it didn't fail any DYK rules and I have just as much right to express an opinion about DYK issues as you or anybody else, your ongoing efforts to chill me out of participation at DYK notwithstanding. Gatoclass (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- I'm afraid you're incorrect on a couple of counts yet again. Linking to a generic database page (or worse, in the hook which was passed, a generic homepage) is not what is meant by WP:V and WP:RS and I'm pretty sure you know that and if you don't, you shouldn't be an admin nor should you be doing this work. Secondly, you continually to abjectly reject just about every single report I make, yet when another editor with whom you are not INVOLVED makes a generic comment which reflected my concerns you jumped to pull the hook. It's clear for all to see. All I'm suggesting you do, to avoid me wasting YET ANOTHER DAY on a single inadequate hook is to leave issues I raise to someone else who may not be so involved to handle. That way you can focus on other interests or hooks while I focus on avoiding yet more embarrassment from the DYK project hitting the main page, and we can both achieve what we're looking for in an more expedient and efficient manner. This clumsy example of atrocious sourcing which relies on readers to click the right buttons, fill in the right information, ignore some of the information then presented, and then click through to individual search results to find how to verify the hook is plain wrong, whether you believe it or not. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:22, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, it didn't fail any DYK rules and I have just as much right to express an opinion about DYK issues as you or anybody else, your ongoing efforts to chill me out of participation at DYK notwithstanding. Gatoclass (talk) 20:16, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Ah, so a specific complaint about the fact that it failed the DYK rules and was not what our readers expect to have go through to verify a hook was not acceptable to pull the hook while a generic comment about non-transparent sourcing was enough. Brilliant. You're too involved to deal with anything I post here, and I request that you leave any issues I raise here to others to handle because I wasted a LOT of time on this, thanks to you. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:48, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Not at all! Your complaint, specifically, was that it was too hard to use a database to verify a hook. That is the argument I rejected, and I still reject it. Black Kite on the other hand, made a generic comment that the sourcing wasn't transparent enough, without saying exactly what he meant. I went back to make one more check of the article, just to be sure I hadn't missed something, and noticed that my changes relied on a comparison of two sources, thought maybe that's what Black Kite was referring to, and decided to pull the hook on that basis. Now if you'd said to me from the outset that it was too hard to make the comparison, I probably would have responded positively to that, but that's not the point you were making. Gatoclass (talk) 19:40, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- Well that was easy enough. Next! Interesting though that you thought Black Kite's "sourcing isn't transparent enough" was sufficient to pull, yet you ardently argued against my "leads to a generic main page with no sight of verification of the claim. I stumbled around a bit, and finally found some results in a search on "Long reef", but no sign of the word "scuttlings" anywhere.". Once again I think you should leave the reports I make to others because there's clearly a different standard being applied to different editors here. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
- It took me about one minute flat to confirm the hook from the source. There are thousands of articles on Wikipedia with facts sourced to databases, scores of them previously used to support DYK hooks, and AFAIK nobody has ever complained that they are not viable as sources or "too hard" to use, indeed, half of the hooks I fact check every day are harder to check than this one. But you can do what you like with this, I'm done wasting my time on it. Gatoclass (talk) 18:17, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
There's an ongoing discussion at main-page errors of this hook in Queue 1, due to run very shortly. Espresso Addict (talk) 22:46, 2 May 2018 (UTC)
Nomination page: removed disturbing table
Our Main_Page has a link that says & links: #DYK Nominate an article. Clearly this is aimed at every reader! But when one arrives at that page, it opens with a table named "Count of DYK Hooks", showing many red-signaled rows and not explained at all (the word Verified, is that used elsewhere in the process? Really, I still don't understand this table). I get the impression that this infomation is aimed at other editors: those involved in the vetting process (i.e. you, reading this page).
I have boldly removed this table from the {{DYK nomination header}}, because the Reader should not be bothered with this. That page should lead to the nomination-steps asap. - DePiep (talk) 20:37, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree that the table isn't useful to individuals making new nominations, so just move it lower down if it bothers you so much. If you don't understand the difference between a verified hook and a non-verified hook then there's certainly a problem with the definition of the overall process. I suggest someone who cares writes a "how to" guide detailing every step of the DYK process (if one doesn't already exist), and that should include a recommendation that nominators follow their hooks and articles through this arcane maze to the main page and be prepared to deal with issues that arise every step of the way due to the abjectly poor quality control that is forever applied to the hooks nominated here. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:23, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- re
if it bothers you so much
-- no, I reasoned, from Wikipedia view. - DePiep (talk) 22:47, 3 May 2018 (UTC)- Who appointed you the representative of Wikipedia? You expressed a personal opinion, which has not yet gained consensus. -Zanhe (talk) 23:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, I applied WP:BOLD. Now, what is your argument *against* this edit? - DePiep (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- So I applied the R in WP:BRD. Now discuss and gain consensus. The table is a useful summary of all current nominations. -Zanhe (talk) 23:43, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- No, I applied WP:BOLD. Now, what is your argument *against* this edit? - DePiep (talk) 23:26, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- Who appointed you the representative of Wikipedia? You expressed a personal opinion, which has not yet gained consensus. -Zanhe (talk) 23:09, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- re
- Before talking BRD, why did you undo my REFACT edit that placed your topical comment into this section? Why? -DePiep (talk) 00:17, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Didn't I already answer that question? Now focus on the merit of your proposal and stop wasting people's time on minor details. -Zanhe (talk) 00:23, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
I questioned MP talk "DYK next next"
At Talk:Main Page, the MP:ERROR page, I have asked about the new "DYK next next" section [1]. Being MP:ERROR, I don't know where it will end. - DePiep (talk) 22:01, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- You don't know where it will end? Is that a philosophical question or does it have some meaning that I'm missing? The Rambling Man (talk) 22:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
Let's say "guidelines" not "rules"
I strongly propose to change this wording: "DYK rules" should be labeled "DYK guidelines". Elsewhere at Wikipedia we don't use the word 'rules', and it scares off (new) users. I don't think the essence of these guidelines changes by this. - DePiep (talk) 22:07, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- And while we're at it, let's rearrange the deckchairs on the Titanic. There are very few "new" users here, but not because of the nomenclature (after all, a new user is more likely to be familiar with the term "rule" than "guideline") but because of the arcane methods applied using Template space and preps, queues etc and some indeterminate time between nomination and main page feature. I think, if you're trying to encourage new users back to the process, changing the word "rule" to "guideline" is a fool's errand. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:18, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with DePiep. I notice a lot of new users grumbling about all the "rules" at DYK, and I've lately been accused of manipulating the rules to keep them off the main page. We really do have too many rules, but I'm not sure what we can do about the number. Yoninah (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- The actual point is that you and others should already know that you can't simply self-declare Wikipedia "guidelines". You'd need an global RFC for that. And your comment is a red herring in any case because the OP is not about the "number" of rules, just about the word "rule". Wow. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:24, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- You mean the "DYK rules" are not even guidelines? You DYK people just made them up, using a non-wiki word "rule" to evade criticism? Just to intimidate newbies? Is DYK a private kingdom? - DePiep (talk) 22:44, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- Can't see a newbie confused by such terminology, a newbie won't be saying, 'but you did not call it a guideline, I'm so confused' -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:47, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- Short, Alanscottwalker: it is not inviting, and not WP attitude. - DePiep (talk) 22:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- Everyone is use to "rules" all the time, in inviting situations -- ever play checkers or chess, they have rules. Alanscottwalker (talk) 23:01, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- Short, Alanscottwalker: it is not inviting, and not WP attitude. - DePiep (talk) 22:55, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- DePiep, why did you remove the DYK hook count from the Template:DYK nomination header without consensus? Are you trying to make DYK your own private kingdom? We were all newbies once, and we all figured out how to follow the rules/guidelines, whatever you call them. If someone finds it difficult to figure out the rules, it would be difficult to expect them to write quality articles suitable for the main page. -Zanhe (talk) 22:58, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- You Zanhe did revert this WP:REFACTORING? How is this related to this section? What is wrong with DYK editors? - DePiep (talk) 23:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- My message was a direct response to your "private kingdom" and guidelines/rules comment. It becomes out of context when you moved it to a previous thread (to which I responded separately). And I don't represent all DYK editors. If you have an issue with what I did, do not say something is wrong with "DYK editors". -Zanhe (talk) 23:24, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- re Zanhe: No it wasn't. Your
23:5922:59 edit was explicitly about an other topic and section (namely: #Nomination page: removed disturbing table). Please acknowledge, and revert {{DYK nomination header}} (remove the table). After that, pls come back and talk with arguments etc. - DePiep (talk) 23:35, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- re Zanhe: No it wasn't. Your
- My message was a direct response to your "private kingdom" and guidelines/rules comment. It becomes out of context when you moved it to a previous thread (to which I responded separately). And I don't represent all DYK editors. If you have an issue with what I did, do not say something is wrong with "DYK editors". -Zanhe (talk) 23:24, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- You Zanhe did revert this WP:REFACTORING? How is this related to this section? What is wrong with DYK editors? - DePiep (talk) 23:19, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- Can't see a newbie confused by such terminology, a newbie won't be saying, 'but you did not call it a guideline, I'm so confused' -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:47, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- You mean the "DYK rules" are not even guidelines? You DYK people just made them up, using a non-wiki word "rule" to evade criticism? Just to intimidate newbies? Is DYK a private kingdom? - DePiep (talk) 22:44, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
- I agree with DePiep. I notice a lot of new users grumbling about all the "rules" at DYK, and I've lately been accused of manipulating the rules to keep them off the main page. We really do have too many rules, but I'm not sure what we can do about the number. Yoninah (talk) 22:21, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
DYKbox improvements
Hi. I made some improvements to {{DYKbox}} [2]. Unfortunately, they were reverted (but not discussed). About this box: it is way outdated and has a bad design. At least we should get the lists & links organised. (I note that, following the weird infobox setup, about each row has the same links LH and RH side ?!). - DePiep (talk) 00:14, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Hi everybody. Apart from all distractions, I think this version is the best so far. For example, it nicely removes some link repetition, and puts together talkpage next to subject page. (See history for detailed edit descriptions). - DePiep (talk) 03:10, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
Bull in a china shop
WP:BOLD notwithstanding, for better or worse the DYK processes are (a) sometimes the way they are for nonobvious reasons and (b) dependent on bots maybe no one completely understands anymor, and sometimes fragile. Aggressive modification of everything within sight by someone who apparently has never been through the nomination or reviewing process (search the strings did you know and dyk [3]) is a recipe for anguish. I'll be traveling for the next three weeks so I hope there's more than smoldering rubble left when I return. EEng 00:31, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Is this a reply? And if so, to what? - DePiep (talk) 00:34, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- It's not a reply to anything. It's a warning that there's a good chance you'll bring the whole house of cards down. I recommend that others read WP:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive959#User:DePiep. EEng 00:46, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Further signs that there's trouble on the horizon are here and here and, now, here. EEng 01:11, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- And your argument is? - DePiep (talk) 00:49, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- ... given at the opening of this subthread. But hey, knock yourself out. EEng 01:11, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- Circular nonsense.
- But hey, thanks for the PA, I almost forgot that one. Now instead of being afraid and so blocking any improvement (how can one live that way at Wikipedia btw?), please point out what actually does or will go wrong, applying sound thinking & sandboxing as I do? - DePiep (talk) 01:20, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- You are tampering with machinery you do not understand -- which indeed no one understands. It's unfortunate that no one understands it, but that's the case and it's part of the reason we continue to tolerate certain certain silly things, such as the nomination pages living in template space. It would be great if someone came along to refactor it all and clean it all up, but that requires someone who first demonstrates a thorough mastery of the entire machine. You have never, AFAICT, ever made a DYK nomination, or performed a DYK review, or participated here in any way. Maybe you're one of those people who thinks that complete ignorance of how anything works is the indicium of competence, but I am not one of those people. EEng 01:52, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- First, re your [4] revert: your es says something completely different that what you say here. It is simple: when someone reverts in BRD, go to the talkpage and discuss. The editor you are "helping" (subverting a 3RR block actually) did NOT put any argument whereever. Notrr did you.
- Second: changing {{DYKbox}} does not break the grand system, the system that scares you soo much. When you don't understand it, does not mean it is broken. The fact that you refer to unrelated stuff like
the nomination pages living in template space
says even more of the same. You yourself cannot grasp any change, and so you deny any change at all. Now WHAT is the actual, rational, real problem with the edit you reverted? (Please forget that elephant bullshit you are throwing around). - DePiep (talk) 02:24, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- You are tampering with machinery you do not understand -- which indeed no one understands. It's unfortunate that no one understands it, but that's the case and it's part of the reason we continue to tolerate certain certain silly things, such as the nomination pages living in template space. It would be great if someone came along to refactor it all and clean it all up, but that requires someone who first demonstrates a thorough mastery of the entire machine. You have never, AFAICT, ever made a DYK nomination, or performed a DYK review, or participated here in any way. Maybe you're one of those people who thinks that complete ignorance of how anything works is the indicium of competence, but I am not one of those people. EEng 01:52, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- ... given at the opening of this subthread. But hey, knock yourself out. EEng 01:11, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- And your argument is? - DePiep (talk) 00:49, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- It's not, as you say,
unrelated stuff
that the nomination pages live in template space; it exemplifies the complexity and fragility of the DYK structures you are tinkering with. When you don't understand it, does not mean it is broken
– Sure, but what you don't understand you are likely to break.- My edit summaries at DYKbox applied to that particular change of yours, which you are now editwarring against two other editors to force in; my comments in this thread apply to your bull-in-a-china shop changes all over DYK landscape in general. I'm saying
something completely different
because I'm talking about different things.
There are now three (at least) other editors reverting your changes to various DYK structures all over the map. Smarten up. EEng 03:11, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
- It is unrelated to edits in {{DYKbox}}. Yes it may be "complicated" and "fragile" (for you), but no edit I made in {{YKbox}} is breaking things. Because I know what I am doing. That only happens in your fearful mind, not in my well-thought edit.
- In "When you don't understand it", the "you" is EEng. I do fully understand the box we are talking about.
- Not one of those editors added a single argumednt to this discussion. Not one. (that includes you, EEng: even you are still WIKILAWYERING about BRD etc etc).
- You still have not made a single body argument against my edit. - DePiep (talk) 03:23, 4 May 2018 (UTC)