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::: I think the salient point here is that the accepted practice is to require that all criteria be explicitly referenced in a DYK review. If you want to alter that, you want to ''rescind'' the longstanding requirement as stated in the instructions at T:TDYK. It is therefore misleading to describe retention of the criteria as an "amendment"; it's your proposal to drop the requirement that is effectively an amendment to the accepted procedure. [[User:Gatoclass|Gatoclass]] ([[User talk:Gatoclass|talk]]) 15:44, 23 October 2015 (UTC) |
::: I think the salient point here is that the accepted practice is to require that all criteria be explicitly referenced in a DYK review. If you want to alter that, you want to ''rescind'' the longstanding requirement as stated in the instructions at T:TDYK. It is therefore misleading to describe retention of the criteria as an "amendment"; it's your proposal to drop the requirement that is effectively an amendment to the accepted procedure. [[User:Gatoclass|Gatoclass]] ([[User talk:Gatoclass|talk]]) 15:44, 23 October 2015 (UTC) |
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::::{{u|Gatoclass}}, again, I have advanced a RfC to amend the ''reviewing guide''. It is tightly and concisely focused on the ''reviewing guide'' and has nothing to do with anything else. Since when do we shut-down RfCs because they're ''too'' focused? Since when do we shut-down RfCs because they're not vague enough? Since when do we shut-down RfCs because they address written policy instead of unwritten custom or "accepted practice"? I have not proposed to "drop" ''any'' requirement, I have proposed a very simple amendment to the language of the ''reviewing guide'' and only the ''reviewing guide'' (an amendment I oppose) without pretension that such an amendment will impact anything else. The problem you're having is that you're trying to read between the lines of a very simple and straightforward RfC and imagine a complex meaning, or wild plot, that simply doesn't exist. The closure of the RfC was inappropriate. [[User:LavaBaron|LavaBaron]] ([[User talk:LavaBaron|talk]]) 15:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC) |
::::{{u|Gatoclass}}, again, I have advanced a RfC to amend the ''reviewing guide''. It is tightly and concisely focused on the ''reviewing guide'' and has nothing to do with anything else. Since when do we shut-down RfCs because they're ''too'' focused? Since when do we shut-down RfCs because they're not vague enough? Since when do we shut-down RfCs because they address written policy instead of unwritten custom or "accepted practice"? I have not proposed to "drop" ''any'' requirement, I have proposed a very simple amendment to the language of the ''reviewing guide'' and only the ''reviewing guide'' (an amendment I oppose) without pretension that such an amendment will impact anything else. The problem you're having is that you're trying to read between the lines of a very simple and straightforward RfC and imagine a complex meaning, or wild plot, that simply doesn't exist. The closure of the RfC was inappropriate. [[User:LavaBaron|LavaBaron]] ([[User talk:LavaBaron|talk]]) 15:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC) |
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::::: {{u|LavaBaron}}, you may have a point in arguing that your RFC was not technically malformed. However, as I have since pointed out, it was ''misleading'' and POV in its presentation, in that it presented a proposal by you to ''overturn'' the status quo as the status quo, and conversely, presented the status quo position as if ''it'' were the new proposal. If you can't understand the problem with that, then I doubt there is much point in continuing this discussion. [[User:Gatoclass|Gatoclass]] ([[User talk:Gatoclass|talk]]) 16:11, 23 October 2015 (UTC) |
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== DYK is almost overdue == |
== DYK is almost overdue == |
Revision as of 16:11, 23 October 2015
Did you know? | |
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Introduction and rules | |
Introduction | WP:DYK |
General discussion | WT:DYK |
Guidelines | WP:DYKCRIT |
Reviewer instructions | WP:DYKRI |
Nominations | |
Nominate an article | WP:DYKCNN |
Awaiting approval | WP:DYKN |
Approved | WP:DYKNA |
April 1 hooks | WP:DYKAPRIL |
Preparation | |
Preps and queues | T:DYK/Q |
Prepper instructions | WP:DYKPBI |
Admin instructions | WP:DYKAI |
Main Page errors | WP:ERRORS |
History | |
Statistics | WP:DYKSTATS |
Archived sets | WP:DYKA |
Just for fun | |
Monthly wraps | WP:DYKW |
Awards | WP:DYKAWARDS |
Userboxes | WP:DYKUBX |
Hall of Fame | WP:DYK/HoF |
List of users ... | |
... by nominations | WP:DYKNC |
... by promotions | WP:DYKPC |
Administrative | |
Scripts and bots | WP:DYKSB |
On the Main Page | |
WP:Errors | WP:Errors |
To ping the DYK admins | {{DYK admins}} |
Index no archives yet (create) |
This page has archives. Sections older than 7 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
This is where the Did you know section on the main page, its policies and the featured items can be discussed. Proposals for changing how Did You Know works were being discussed at Wikipedia:Did you know/2011 reform proposals.
QPQs and slap-dash reviews claimed
As I was scrolling the nominations page, I made the turn-around tick and notations on templates where there were no details on what was reviewed. In this case, it looked like an editor sliding by on numerous slap-dash check offs in a row. Please don't hesitate to question QPQs from any editor if what they are claiming looks like a review was not actually done. Anyone who has done a review should be able to provide some details. The very least respect/courtesy we can pay to nominators is to not fake the reviews, to list the details. In the long run, questioning a review helps lessen the complaints we get on this page when a promoted hook has to be pulled. — Maile (talk) 20:46, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
- Maile, are you satisfied with the reviewer's response on those reviews (plus more) a few hours ago? Hooks are already being promoted. BlueMoonset (talk) 16:24, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- Let's list them here, because it's getting to be confusing going back through my contributions history. Any other seasoned DYK reviewer is welcome to express their viewpoint:
- Mount Cotton Road - I have no issue with your comments here. I believe you are correct. Listed here because this was on my talk page this morning. Quite amusing, don't you think?
- Aydın Archaeological Museum -Should not be used as a QPQ, and should not be promoted as is.
- Harry Anthony - Should not be used as a QPQ, and should not be promoted as is.
- Robust tuco-tuco - Should not be used as a QPQ, and should not be promoted as is.
- Nathan Waller (soldier) - Should not be a QPQ and should not be promoted as is.
- Francis Doughty (clergyman) - Should not be a QPQ and should not be promoted as is.
- Vern Miller - ????
- Let's list them here, because it's getting to be confusing going back through my contributions history. Any other seasoned DYK reviewer is welcome to express their viewpoint:
- ADMIN, PLEASE PULL FROM PREP 3 Marsh Creek (Bowman Creek) - Should not be a QPQ, and should not have been promoted.
- ADMIN, PLEASE PULL FROM PREP 3 Evangelienmotetten - Promoted without adequate review.
- ADMIN, PLEASE PULL FROM PREP 4 Frigid bumblebee - Should not be a QPQ, and should not have been promoted.
- We have a problem, folks. Things are being promoted that shouldn't. Remember Signpost/2015-09-09/Op-ed from @Fram:? While we encourage everyone to get involved in DYK, it is of particular concern that we have so many in the above list. Is there any recourse to this? — Maile (talk) 16:49, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Maile66: Did you know that anyone can add or remove hooks from the prep areas? You only need admin help when they've been moved to the queues. I haven't looked at every review you've listed, but your concern looks legitimate to me. -Zanhe (talk) 18:26, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Zanhe: I guess I was thinking of a Queue, which does take an admin. However, I'm leaving the request as is, because if no one pulls these hooks, they will make it to Queue and require an admin. I know it should not be me to pull them, because I was involved in the review and it should be an uninvolved party. — Maile (talk) 21:22, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've moved all three hooks to Prep 1 to avoid them being promoted to queue while this is ongoing. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:45, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Zanhe: I guess I was thinking of a Queue, which does take an admin. However, I'm leaving the request as is, because if no one pulls these hooks, they will make it to Queue and require an admin. I know it should not be me to pull them, because I was involved in the review and it should be an uninvolved party. — Maile (talk) 21:22, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Maile66: Did you know that anyone can add or remove hooks from the prep areas? You only need admin help when they've been moved to the queues. I haven't looked at every review you've listed, but your concern looks legitimate to me. -Zanhe (talk) 18:26, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Seems to be a serious issue. Time for more thorough reviews. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:40, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- It seems like the real problem is verifying that reviewers are actually going through all the relevant criteria. Right now, the rules for reviews are a little ambiguous; although they require reviewers to look at all criteria, I don't think there is anything in the rules (as they are written right now) that would prevent a reviewer from saying "I have looked at all the criteria and this nomination passes." Instead, I propose we implement the following baseline standards for DYK reviews:
- State the date on which the article was created, 5x expanded, promoted to GA, etc.
- State the length of the nominated article
- State affirmatively that the article "passes relevant policy considerations, including (i) neutrality, (ii) citations, and (iii) close paraphrasing"
- State the length of the hook
- State why the hook is interesting and link to the source used to support the hook.
- State affirmatively that "QPQ has been satisfied"
- If applicable, state affirmatively that "the image complies with relevant guidelines"
- A hypothetical review under this system would look like this:
- "This was created on October 19, the article is 2345 characters long, and the article passes relevant policy considerations, including (i) neutrality, (ii) citations, and (iii) close paraphrasing. The hook is 123 characters long, it is interesting because most people wouldn't know a fact like that, and it is supported by a source at [this link] via inline citation. QPQ is satisfied, and the image complies with relevant guidelines."
- Without affirmative requirements like these, I don't see any other way we can require editors to "show their work" (for lack of a better term), and we will simply have to take their word at face value. Nevertheless, I am definitely interested to hear other thoughts on this matter. Best, -- Notecardforfree (talk) 20:42, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- Or we could just assume that reviewers aren't complete liars and have actually checked what they say they've checked. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 21:05, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- If that was the case, we wouldn't be removing items from preps, the main page etc. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- Or we could just assume that reviewers aren't complete liars and have actually checked what they say they've checked. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 21:05, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- When something like this happens, just like the batch in early September from a different reviewer, there are clues that the system is being taken advantage of. All the above reviews are by the same editor. Six of them on the same day, with five done within minutes of each other, almost the time it would take to open a template, type a few words, and save. They are as follows:
- Mount Cotton Road - initial review 00:58, 12 October 2015
- Aydın Archaeological Museum - initial review 01:00, 12 October 2015
- Harry Anthony - initial review 01:19, 12 October 2015
- Nathan Waller (soldier) - initial review 01:22, 12 October 2015
- Marsh Creek (Bowman Creek) - initial review 01:34, 12 October 2015
- Robust tuco-tuco - initial review 04:43, 12 October 2015
- So, we would love to extend good faith to everyone. But a streak like this should be caught, and caught before it gets too far.— Maile (talk) 23:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- Let's not beat about the bush; the system is clearly being abused here, and I don't think LavaBaron (talk · contribs) can plead ignorance. I specifically asked him here to do a proper review of Template:Did you know nominations/Francis Doughty (clergyman), to which he responded by doing another slapdash review. I see from this thread that this has happened multiple times. I think we should make it clear that this is unacceptable and it damages the integrity of DYK. It would be inappropriate to proceed straight to a ban, so I propose that LavaBaron should be given a final warning that further slapdash reviews will lead to a ban (of an initial month's duration?) from submitting or reviewing any further DYKs. Prioryman (talk) 07:05, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- Oppose Proposal of "Warning" - Oh good Lord. First - "Abuse" suggests some scheme of gain. Since half of the reviews above are goodwill / non-QPQ reviews, I'm really curious what kind-of conspiracy you think is occurring exactly? Second - all of my reviews meet the requirements for what the written output of a review must contain as laid-out in DYK guidelines and are identical in verbiage to many other DYK reviews like those contributed by Editorofthewiki and others. I'm sorry you don't feel the DYK guidelines are adequate, I really am. I'm happy to work with you on a proposal to update or amend them. Until then, "warnings" should be reserved for actual violations of commmunity guidelines, not violations of individual preferences. Third - "final warning" suggests there's already been a warning. Your individual decision to describe to me your personal preferences on my Talk page does not constitute a "warning." Like I said, if you would like to collaborate on an update to the DYK guidelines, I would be very happy to help. Do let me know. LavaBaron (talk) 09:31, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- Support Warning: Several DYK regulars—not Prioryman only—have requested that LavaBaron add more details of what was checked to his review write-ups (to aid the DYK process), which would take a couple of minutes per review at most, and he has refused them all. BlueMoonset (talk) 04:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Let's not beat about the bush; the system is clearly being abused here, and I don't think LavaBaron (talk · contribs) can plead ignorance. I specifically asked him here to do a proper review of Template:Did you know nominations/Francis Doughty (clergyman), to which he responded by doing another slapdash review. I see from this thread that this has happened multiple times. I think we should make it clear that this is unacceptable and it damages the integrity of DYK. It would be inappropriate to proceed straight to a ban, so I propose that LavaBaron should be given a final warning that further slapdash reviews will lead to a ban (of an initial month's duration?) from submitting or reviewing any further DYKs. Prioryman (talk) 07:05, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- When something like this happens, just like the batch in early September from a different reviewer, there are clues that the system is being taken advantage of. All the above reviews are by the same editor. Six of them on the same day, with five done within minutes of each other, almost the time it would take to open a template, type a few words, and save. They are as follows:
Okay, cool - excuse the Wall of Text but I was not notified I was the topic of discussion by the person who started it so am late to the party; since I don't plan to stick around I'm going to deal with this all in one fell swoop -
- (1) I review multiple noms and then enter my promote/delay rationale back to back so if timestamps are within a minute or two of each other that's the reason. Pretty simple explanation. No conspiracy involved.
- (2) At least half of reviews listed above are not QPQ (though the complainant has disingenuously claimed they are). What do I have to "gain" by volunteering my energy for goodwill (non-QPQ) reviews? Trust me - no TBAN is necessary. I'm done because it's not worth it to get dragged into this.
- (3) I can't take Maile's complaint about me in GF as I recently had to advise him/her [1] to review the DYK guide more attentively due to her own errors in applying DYK criteria (here). This seems very sketchy for Maile to file a public complaint about my competence to do DYK reviews less than 24 hours after I was forced to ask him/her to slow down and be more careful in his/her own DYK activities. It's doubly concerning that he/she initiated this discussion about me (a) without pinging me per policy, and, (b) lied about these being QPQ reviews so as to advance the idea I was attempting to extract personal gain. If this were ANI I'd imagine there'd be an Apollo XIII sized WP:BOOMERANG blasting off right now. (It isn't, thank God.)
- (4) In my reviews, when I say "everything" looks good, I mean "everything" (as in everything in the DYK criteria) - I'm unclear why the word "everything" is ambiguous or confusing to the complainant.
- (5) Contrary to the idea presented above, this is not about me but about a crusade complainant has recently initiated against multiple editors. Just this week complainant also went after (among others) Editorofthewiki (in this DYK) because Editorofthewiki, like me, also used the phrase "everything checks out" in his reviews. When I hold a review for a problem I explain in detail as I did here. When I pass a review I write a quick summary. Community guidelines require no more or less and an individual editor's preferences don't trump our consensus-developed guidelines. As per the points alluded to by Notecardforfree and Jakec, if one or two editors can't AGF and want mandatory language adopted for DYK reviews, that's cool but there's a process to introduce new community guidelines. Bullying editors into exhaustion / submission with complaints based on knowingly false presentments (see: aformentioned claims of QPQ) is not that process. It is extremely disruptive, time-wasting, and I'm concerned to see it being pursued as an alternative to the normal policy-creation process.
Anyway, I'm a pretty anonymous content contributor and don't do WikiPolitics so this just isn't a very interesting discussion for me. I probably won't be checking back as I'm busy writing an encylopedia at the moment. Ping me to let me know how it turns out if you want. You know, whatever. Take care - LavaBaron (talk) 08:53, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- It's pretty hard to believe you're checking things thoroughly when you missed something very obvious here. 97198 (talk) 11:38, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've done 20 DYK reviews in the last month. If your statement is I'm only averaging a 5-percent error rate, I'm absolutely thrilled to own that! It actually means I'm pacing Maile's own error rate in DYK reviews this month. Great to get an affirmation - thanks! Hope all is well with you, 97198. LavaBaron (talk) 12:12, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm a little bit lost as to the problem here. Unless the criticism is that there is the feeling of reviews being done so quickly that mistakes are being made. If that's the case then it should be possible to demonstrate mistakes (as someone has done already, by pointing out one minor process error). I've had a look through the noms listed above and LavaBaron seems to have, for the most part, correctly ticked or crossed as relevant. What concerns me is that the criticism is that he's not writing a longer sentence to say the review has been done... which I am not sure is a valid concern; claiming a short comment is akin to a quick and incomplete review seems like a strange metric. Writing a longer sentence isn't hard, and I am sure a bad reviewer would be able to do that... As far as I knew, DYK was a lightweight process that got new content on the main page to encourage people to write new stuff and to keep the main page fresh. If bad, untrue, uncited or copyvio content gets through to the main page, that's a bad thing! And we should be alert for that and take action against reviewers who do so. If occasionally process is missed (such as missing the QPQ or missing that it was a userspace move) then that's not great, but not really the end of the world. --Errant (chat!) 14:53, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- Great points, Errant. Between this, and Jakec's comment here [2], I think it's safe to safe this is, predictably, going nowhere. Would you mind restoring my reviews back to the prep? (I think either Maile or BlueMoonset mentioned they were invoking some kind-of perceived emergency powers to remove them; not sure it's appropriate to continue to punish the authors just for the sake of having a prop for this latest engineered Wikidrama. I don't think it would be appropriate for me to restore them.) In the meantime, I'm going to return to doing DYK reviews with extreme gusto. LavaBaron (talk) 04:05, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- I'm a little bit lost as to the problem here. Unless the criticism is that there is the feeling of reviews being done so quickly that mistakes are being made. If that's the case then it should be possible to demonstrate mistakes (as someone has done already, by pointing out one minor process error). I've had a look through the noms listed above and LavaBaron seems to have, for the most part, correctly ticked or crossed as relevant. What concerns me is that the criticism is that he's not writing a longer sentence to say the review has been done... which I am not sure is a valid concern; claiming a short comment is akin to a quick and incomplete review seems like a strange metric. Writing a longer sentence isn't hard, and I am sure a bad reviewer would be able to do that... As far as I knew, DYK was a lightweight process that got new content on the main page to encourage people to write new stuff and to keep the main page fresh. If bad, untrue, uncited or copyvio content gets through to the main page, that's a bad thing! And we should be alert for that and take action against reviewers who do so. If occasionally process is missed (such as missing the QPQ or missing that it was a userspace move) then that's not great, but not really the end of the world. --Errant (chat!) 14:53, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- I've done 20 DYK reviews in the last month. If your statement is I'm only averaging a 5-percent error rate, I'm absolutely thrilled to own that! It actually means I'm pacing Maile's own error rate in DYK reviews this month. Great to get an affirmation - thanks! Hope all is well with you, 97198. LavaBaron (talk) 12:12, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- LavaBaron, I'm just starting a discussion on why the written DYK reviews are currently expected to indicate specifically what was checked. Your reviews have generally not done this, and several regular DYK reviewers have pointed this out—Maile, Prioryman, Yoninah, SSTflyer, and I specifically—and your brief approvals have been superseded by requests for more completely written out reviews. Your latest brief approval reiterations claim an "administrator ruling" in your favor. Jakob, Errant, I didn't see such a ruling here; was that your intent? My experience is that such matters are put on hold until eventually some sort of consensus is achieved, and so far there's been quite a diversity of viewpoints in this discussion rather than any conclusion. I'm looking forward to your thoughts. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Doubling-down is only going to create more disruption. Is that your intent? It seems so.
- Since we experienced a minor edit disagreement several months ago you have relentlessly pursued me across WP attempting to draw attention to, what you have rudely and uncivilly characterized as, my "incompetence" [sic]. Each of the numerous times you've attempted to secure community consensus for a TBAN or warning has resulted in, at best, nothing and, at worst, your own censure by other editors. This latest disruption you've engineered, including your assumption of some presumed "emergency powers" to de-list already reviewed and promoted DYKs, has not only impacted me but has, in fact, caused grief and problems for other editors (said DYK noms you're de-promoting). Attempting to hitch your long-term crusade to the opinions of other editors like SSTflyer, etc., who are clearly unaware of the genesis of your issues, only spreads the contagion of your disruption. Your energies would be much better spent, as you have been endlessly cautioned by other editors, letting go of whatever perceived slight you feel occurred in the past and focusing on encyclopedia building.
- If your intention is really to "start a discussion" about amending the DYK reviewing guidelines, this thread isn't the place to do it. A new thread containing a concrete, actionable proposal, should be proferred. If you need help constructing such a policy proposal for community consideration, let me know. I'm happy to help. LavaBaron (talk) 06:27, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- So, sorry, if my comment was taken as an admin "ruling" then to be clear, I was merely offering my view in support of LavaBaron's reviews. It definitely shouldn't be taken as any sort of ruling (cos, well, we don't do that!). I think my point was that there's nothing too much offered as wrong with the reviews LavaBaron is doing, except that the review text is short. Looking through the DYK page this is not an uncommon approach, and my thought was that there's nothing wrong with doing that IMO. If people are not promoting DYK's because of the length of the review then that strikes me as the problem rather than LavaBaron and others (because others are "guilty" of this too). As I said before: we should be alert to people passing articles that simply don't meet the DYK criteria and rightfully warn them about that. But there doesn't seem to be a suggestion or evidence of that in this case. To LavaBaron I'd say: just take it easy! I think you're doing a great thing volunteering for DYK, don't let things escalate! --Errant (chat!) 08:31, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, Errant, this is part of a long-term pattern of disruption BM has been engineering that stretches back months and originates in a GA-dispute we had. It has become so acute I've actually received barnstars from other editors for having to deal with it [3]. BM has continued this disruption by red-tagging no fewer than seven of my DYK reviews in the last several hours, despite the fact no consensus was achieved here to overturn them. As evidence of the singularly obsessive nature of this disruption I'd point to the fact that Jakec submitted a review here - Template:Did you know nominations/Tribute to Troy - that did not explicitly mention passage of a copyvio check and BM did not tag it, despite the fact his most recent round of red-tagging occurred after that review was posted. There are numerous other examples. If he's so concerned his preferences are adhered to, why is he only trying to deep-six my reviews? He is clearly abusing process to carry-out a highly disruptive, long-term grudge. LavaBaron (talk) 15:43, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- So, sorry, if my comment was taken as an admin "ruling" then to be clear, I was merely offering my view in support of LavaBaron's reviews. It definitely shouldn't be taken as any sort of ruling (cos, well, we don't do that!). I think my point was that there's nothing too much offered as wrong with the reviews LavaBaron is doing, except that the review text is short. Looking through the DYK page this is not an uncommon approach, and my thought was that there's nothing wrong with doing that IMO. If people are not promoting DYK's because of the length of the review then that strikes me as the problem rather than LavaBaron and others (because others are "guilty" of this too). As I said before: we should be alert to people passing articles that simply don't meet the DYK criteria and rightfully warn them about that. But there doesn't seem to be a suggestion or evidence of that in this case. To LavaBaron I'd say: just take it easy! I think you're doing a great thing volunteering for DYK, don't let things escalate! --Errant (chat!) 08:31, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- LavaBaron, I'm just starting a discussion on why the written DYK reviews are currently expected to indicate specifically what was checked. Your reviews have generally not done this, and several regular DYK reviewers have pointed this out—Maile, Prioryman, Yoninah, SSTflyer, and I specifically—and your brief approvals have been superseded by requests for more completely written out reviews. Your latest brief approval reiterations claim an "administrator ruling" in your favor. Jakob, Errant, I didn't see such a ruling here; was that your intent? My experience is that such matters are put on hold until eventually some sort of consensus is achieved, and so far there's been quite a diversity of viewpoints in this discussion rather than any conclusion. I'm looking forward to your thoughts. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:42, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Nomination request for Thomas á Jesu
Hi there, per the instructions, as an IP I have to post here rather than filling in the form. (Don't know if this happens to you much, but that's what it says in the first line.) Could the following nomination be made please? Thank you much, 184.147.131.85 (talk) 15:19, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- ... that monks who wanted to live a life of solitude in the 16th-century "desert" hermitages founded by Thomas á Jesu had to apply and meet strict criteria.
P.S. for the quid pro quo I reviewed Melipona beecheii.184.147.131.85 (talk) 17:32, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
- Done: Template:Did you know nominations/Thomas á Jesu. MANdARAX • XAЯAbИAM 10:51, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
- Thank you very much.184.147.131.85 (talk) 14:45, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
Oldest nominations needing DYK reviewers
The previous list has just been archived, so I've compiled a new set of the 40 oldest nominations that need reviewing, which takes us through the end of September. As of the most recent update, 89 nominations are approved, leaving 222 of 311 nominations still needing approval. Thanks to everyone who reviews these, especially the one left over from August and those from early September.
- August 21: Template:Did you know nominations/2015 attack in Thalys train car
- September 3: Template:Did you know nominations/Shelby Gem Factory (two articles)
- September 6: Template:Did you know nominations/Celebrity Fifteen to One
September 10: Template:Did you know nominations/Sigala (musician), Good Times (Ella Eyre song) (two articles)September 11: Template:Did you know nominations/Corruption in Equatorial Guinea- September 13: Template:Did you know nominations/Jared Tebo (two articles)
- September 17: Template:Did you know nominations/Marathwada Liberation Day
- September 18: Template:Did you know nominations/2008 TNA World X Cup Tournament
September 21: Template:Did you know nominations/Brendan Clouston- September 21: Template:Did you know nominations/Al-Istibsar
September 21: Template:Did you know nominations/1989 (Ryan Adams album)September 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Sword Art Online: Lost SongSeptember 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Lee Ee Hoe- September 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Edward Hart (settler)
- September 22: Template:Did you know nominations/Lizzie Halliday
- September 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Scaptotrigona postica
- September 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Lenuzzi's Horseshoe
- September 23: Template:Did you know nominations/Fireweed Studio
- September 24: Template:Did you know nominations/Mercedes Gleitze
- September 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Ernst Beyeler
- September 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Nexus 5X, Nexus 6P (two articles)
- September 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Umaid Bhawan Palace
September 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Indre- September 25: Template:Did you know nominations/Dana Records
- September 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Picturesque Palestine, Sinai, and Egypt
September 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Frigid bumblebee- September 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Referendums in the Netherlands
- September 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Bad Timing (Adventure Time)
- September 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Yusuf al-'Azma
- September 26: Template:Did you know nominations/List of Padma Bhushan Award recipients (1954–1959)
September 26: Template:Did you know nominations/Abandoned mine drainage- September 27: Template:Did you know nominations/Haute-Loire
- September 27: Template:Did you know nominations/Ni no Kuni mobile games
- September 27: Template:Did you know nominations/Music of Ni no Kuni
- September 27: Template:Did you know nominations/Ni no Kuni: Dominion of the Dark Djinn (two article)
- September 27: Template:Did you know nominations/George Givot
- September 28: Template:Did you know nominations/The Internet and cats
September 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Khumarawayh ibn Ahmad ibn Tulun- September 28: Template:Did you know nominations/Moodu Pani
- September 29: Template:Did you know nominations/Val-d'Oise (two articles)
September 30: Template:Did you know nominations/National Socialist Workers' Party of Norway
Please remember to cross off entries as you finish reviewing them (unless you're asking for further review), even if the review was not an approval. Many thanks! BlueMoonset (talk) 02:30, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
DYK is almost overdue
In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:
- Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
- Once completed edit queue #6 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
- Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page
Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 10:04, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- ... that Leonhardt Schröter lost his job, so he became a librarian?
I'm not seeing how this hook meets the "interesting" requirement. Perhaps that "Leonhardt lost his job as town Cantor because of his Philippist sympathies?"--ProverbialElephant (talk) 21:08, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
- I wrote this hook as a tongue-in-cheek poke at my librarian friends, who have significantly assisted me in finding sources for articles. The implication is that librarian isn't a real job. In fact, since I specifically wrote it to be amusing, I thought it was "hookier" than what I usually provide. However, if you have to explain anything, it isn't funny. So, sorry. 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 11:23, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
DYK is almost overdue
In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:
- Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
- Once completed edit queue #1 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
- Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page
Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 22:04, 19 October 2015 (UTC)
Article traffic stats
The stats.grok.se page has been down since October 12. Any hopes of retrieving the page stats for the last week of DYKs? Yoninah (talk) 18:00, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
- More, over the long haul. I don't know where we'd get them. Have you seen Village pump (technical)#Pageview_Stats_down_again? Henrik, who used to compile them, has not been active for a very long time. @TonyTheTiger: has been keeping a running total at VP, but no one responds. Raw data dumps are Here, but you'd have to know how to pull what you want from that. At one point, @Cyberpower678: had (or has) something to do with XTools, which is a stats tool at labs. I have the feeling this is all in the hands of Wikimedia. — Maile (talk) 20:03, 20 October 2015 (UTC)
I was told to post here instead of at Template talk:DYK conditions by that talk page. I use Template:Did you know review instead of Template:DYK checklist. Is it worth adding, underneath "Reviewer's template", this: "(prose version)"?--Launchballer 08:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
- Not bad. I would also say for anyone who thinks they don't have to provide details of a review, the instructions on the nomination page are very clear that details are to be provided in the review under the section "How to review a nomination" DYK review instructions
please begin with one of the 6 review symbols that appear at the top of the edit screen, and then indicate all aspects of the article that you have reviewed.
Details that are supposed to be checked in a review can be found at DYKReviewing guide
DYK Review Cheatsheet
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Prep 1
The second hook is 237 characters and almost unreadable. Pull or cut? Yoninah (talk) 10:15, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- How about cutting it to "Equatorial Guinea is ranked one of the lowest countries by measure of the quality of life due to corruption"? Graeme Bartlett (talk) 11:28, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- I did that already. I will try to find time to verify the hook a bit later on, since it's making a somewhat exceptional claim. Gatoclass (talk) 11:30, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, I've just swapped the hook with one in Prep 3 so we have a bit more time for you to look at it; otherwise, with promotion to the main page overdue and Prep 1 the next to be promoted, it could hit the main page at any moment. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:20, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- I did that already. I will try to find time to verify the hook a bit later on, since it's making a somewhat exceptional claim. Gatoclass (talk) 11:30, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
Question
I confess that I completely forgot to nominate Baker Run and Windfall Run for DYK. Since it's only three days overdue (and it takes weeks to go through the pipeline anyway) is there any possibility of nominating? --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 11:49, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- That's fine by me. We used to allow up to 11 days, if I remember correctly. Yoninah (talk) 22:11, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
- @Yoninah: Thanks! Now nominated at Template:Did you know nominations/Baker Run, Windfall Run. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 13:01, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
DYK is almost overdue
In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:
- Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
- Once completed edit queue #1 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
- Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page
Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 23:06, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
The current "indicate all aspects of the article that you have reviewed" requirement: retain or abandon?
The Please begin with one of the 5 review symbols that appear at the top of the edit screen, and then indicate all aspects of the article that you have reviewed; your comment should look something like the following:
wording has been part of the DYK nominations page since October 2011, after the test of a required review template that had reviewers checking off all such aspects was abandoned. The new wording didn't say "then indicate that you have reviewed all aspects of the article"; it's clear, given the actual wording coupled with the example that they expected the review be written out. And that expectation has been a part of DYK ever since.
DYK reviewing procedures aren't only in a single review document. Aspects can be found in many places—indeed, there have been many abortive attempts to get everything in one place, but until one succeeds and is approved, the various locations are all relevant: WP:DYKR, WP:DYK, T:TDYK, WP:DYKSG, the DYK nomination template editing window, and probably other locations I'm not remembering at the moment.
The rules do change over time, as consensus for such change is agreed to here on WT:DYK and in various RfCs that have been conducted. But there hasn't been any agreement here to change the practice of several years that reviews should specifically mention which aspects were checked, and many reviewers are careful to make sure that the reviews do mention each criterion checked and how the article/hook measure up to it.
The obvious question is whether the DYK community wishes to continue enforcing full reviews—whether volunteer or QPQ—or wishes to let the requirement lapse or be modified in some way. The usual way to do this is through discussion and consensus; of course, if any reviewer is allowed to continue refusing to follow the requirement and approve review after review, it will become quite difficult if not impossible to ask others to do what he will not, and the requirement withers. I frankly hope it doesn't wither, because the written out review is helpful to promoter and nominator alike, and it has over time improved the breadth of reviewing and the new reviewers to understand what they need to do as part of a QPQ or other review. But if it does become obsolete, it should be because the many DYK participants have decided it is no longer needed. BlueMoonset (talk) 05:46, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Retain
- Retain and enforce - For all the reasons discussed on this talk page for years, and for all the hooks pulled, for the most recent (but not only) discussion on Signpost of sloppy work on DYK, and for the outright feuds that have erupted over the sloppy quality of reviews. — Maile (talk) 12:51, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Retain As a long time contributor, I can say it takse little effort at all to actually indicate the aspects that have been reviewed. And its been a requirement for several years at least that the aspects are stated. Lava, its not going to kill you to follow the requirements.--Kevmin § 13:21, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Retain and enforce per User:Maile66. As I mentioned in a different thread, for editors who regularly review articles, this requirement could be seen as a bureaucratic hassle, but allowing them to just write "meets all criteria" is an open invitation to new/inexperienced editors to do the same. We have to enforce accountability at the ground level. As a side note, because of the long time it takes to build a prep – due to the need to re-review all the hooks, often finding problems, and returning newly un-approved hooks back to the nominator's court – I don't even bother looking at the ones that say "GTG" or "Fine with me". Yoninah (talk) 14:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Retain - while, as Jackob points out below, there are a lot guidelines and criteria and unwritten rules and so forth to DYK, I've never seen these enforced as part of the rule to include all review criteria. I only check against, and include, the list of rules that appear at the top of every review template. All the rules are based off those basic rules. Sure, I forget to write out a criterion or two that I checked the review against, but, if someone challenges the review, it doesn't take long to explain that you simply forgot to mention in the review that you had checked the article against all criteria.--3family6 (Talk to me | See what I have done) 14:33, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Rescind
- Object Nothing is being "rescinded" where nothing has previously been enforced and where conflicting guidance is offered in multiple, equally valid, places. I object to the very wording of the proposal as POV-pushing. There's no evidence the community has ever been "enforcing full reviews." Also, this long proposal contains substantial editorial expository, opinion statements and historical revisionism, and is not a neutrally-worded proposal. A neutrally-worded proposal specific to amending the Reviewing Guide has been advanced below. LavaBaron (talk) 06:47, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Abandon, but make it abundantly clear to all reviewers that they must check the criteria. It is overly bureaucratic, and therein lies the problem. Nobody wants to type out a thousand-word essay explaining how the article meets every single one of the 100+ rules and criteria and sub-rules and policies and guidelines and unwritten rules and secret rules and whatever. What matters is the quality of the review itself, not how many words the review types on the nomination form. It would be easy for system gamers (and there would be a lot of those if we started enforcing the rule) to just slap up a thousand-word essay without actually reading the article. This rule doesn't stop people from making shoddy reviews, or from missing things. Here's another reason it's rather pointless: the prep builders don't just take it on faith; they basically do a full review all over again (but funnily enough, they just have to say "promoted" or "rejected"). So yes, there's no point. Just check all the DYK criteria and say that you've done so, and all is fine. --Jakob (talk) aka Jakec 14:13, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Discussion
I'm not sure retaining or abandoning it is the right question. I'm very much disturbed by Yoninah's comments which imply to me that DYK's need re-reviewing when being moved to prep. That sounds like a serious problem, and more to the point it sounds like a critical problem because they are not talking about the short form reviews but all reviews in general. Increasing the form of the review won't help with this issue. I think we should be discussing how to address bad reviews... ones that actually miss DYK criteria. Because then we can hopefully be more sure that whatever the review looks like it is of good quality. --Errant (chat!) 14:41, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Errant, back when I was taking my first steps in assembling prep sets, my mentors noted that assembling did not just involve balancing a set, it was also the point at which a new pair of eyes should recheck to be sure the article met the DYK criteria, since any single reviewer can miss things: hooks might not read well, the hook fact might not be in the article or the given source, a BLP issue might have been overlooked, and so on. Building prep sets take time, at least how I was taught: you should scan each article, spot check a few sources to see if facts line up and close paraphrasing isn't an issue, and see whether any issues leap out at you. Having a review that mentions those aspects that were checked is helpful in this regard: you know what the reviewer has looked at ... and if there's an omission or lack of clarity, you know to check that aspect more deeply. The prep assembly step and the prep-to-queue promotion are the only two places where that sort of quality control can be inserted into the DYK process, and very few admins will do it at the latter step (Gatoclass is the only one I've noticed lately removing hooks at that stage), so prep assembly is currently the most likely place to catch errors. I rarely assembled a set without sending at least one approved nomination back for repairs. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:31, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Comment I object to the construction of the proposal. First, I'm extremely concerned this proposal has not been made in good faith and has been advanced as part of a long-term editor dispute. This discussion should be closed until one that is (1) neutrally worded sans editorial commentary by the proposer, and, (2) contains a concise and actionable proposal, is advanced. Second, and most importantly, the proposal has, in addition to its inherent POV problems, been abusively constructed so as to require a consensus to maintain the status quo; as noted elsewhere the reviewing guide only requires a written review must begin with "one of the five DYK review icons" and contain a "thorough explanation of any problems or concerns you have." The way in which this proposal is constructed will green-light an amendment to the reviewing guide if a consensus fails. LavaBaron (talk) 15:15, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Should DYK review guide be amended to require detailed description of the review conducted?
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Situation: The DYK Reviewing Guide currently requires editors to (1) complete a seven-part review of DYK nominees, and, (2) write a review. The form of the review, as required by the guide, must begin with "one of the five DYK review icons" and contain a "thorough explanation of any problems or concerns you have." The guide does not require a "thorough explanation" of the review process in the absence of "problems or concerns." Some editors have suggested all DYK reviews should explain, in detail, the methodology of the review conducted, and should include a full list of each of the seven criteria and explicit statement that each criterion was passed. Other editors have said, in the case of "no issue" noms, that blanket statements such as "all DYK criteria have been met" are acceptable. Question: Should the DYK Guide be amended to require all reviewers provide an in-depth description of their reviewing methodology instead of the status quo which only requires a "thorough explanation of any problems or concerns"? (exact format to be decided if proposal passes) LavaBaron (talk) 06:43, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Survey
Support
- Support. For editors who regularly review articles, this requirement could be seen as a bureaucratic hassle, but allowing them to just write "meets all criteria" is an open invitation to new/inexperienced editors to do the same. The fact is that the article must be re-reviewed by the prep builder and queue promoter anyway, but some accountability must be maintained at the base level. Yoninah (talk) 10:11, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Oppose
- Oppose Creating new levels of bookkeeping will only serve to deter participants in DYK who have, thus far, enjoyed a more relaxed regime without issue. The proposal would impose an unnecessary bureaucracy on a dwindling editorship. Our focus should be on quality, not process for the sake of process. LavaBaron (talk) 06:43, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
Discussion
Gatoclass - the RfC is not malformed. It is specific to the reviewing guide, not the more vague and vast instructions that BM has indicated exist in various places across the Wiki. The fact that it is specific to the instructions as they exist in the reviewing guide, is made abundantly clear in this RfC. BM's proposal, which is not neutrally worded and which - by vaguely and non-specifically indicating a vast swath of Wikipedia, does not contain an actionable proposal - should be closed in favor of a properly formatted proposal. LavaBaron (talk) 15:12, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- LavaBaron, I don't know how long you have been involved at DYK, but I've had a strong involvement here since 2007 and you look like a newcomer to me. The reviewing guide is not the definitive source for reviewing at DYK. As I have noted in several recent discussions on this page, most of our rule and guideline pages contain a lot of outdated and sometimes contradictory information and are in need of a thorough overhaul. The instructions at T:TDYK, however, best reflect current practices, and one longstanding accepted practice is that if another reviewer asks you to explicitly state all aspects of a nomination that you have reviewed, you comply with that request, as you are obliged to do by the instructions at the top of the page. Gatoclass (talk) 15:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, the relative importance or non-importance of the reviewing guide is irrelevant. This proposal is asking about an amendment to the reviewing guide. The reviewing guide can, in fact, be amended as a singular entity. This proposal nowhere suggests that an amendment to the reviewing guide will have holistic consequences across WP. It is a concise and tightly focused question that asks about an amendment to the reviewing guide and does not portend such an amendment will have any wider implications. To posit otherwise is to say the reviewing guide is non-amendable and untouchable. This preemptive closure, though I'm sure well meaning, was based on a misreading of the question and was uncalled for. LavaBaron (talk) 15:31, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- I think the salient point here is that the accepted practice is to require that all criteria be explicitly referenced in a DYK review. If you want to alter that, you want to rescind the longstanding requirement as stated in the instructions at T:TDYK. It is therefore misleading to describe retention of the criteria as an "amendment"; it's your proposal to drop the requirement that is effectively an amendment to the accepted procedure. Gatoclass (talk) 15:44, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- Gatoclass, again, I have advanced a RfC to amend the reviewing guide. It is tightly and concisely focused on the reviewing guide and has nothing to do with anything else. Since when do we shut-down RfCs because they're too focused? Since when do we shut-down RfCs because they're not vague enough? Since when do we shut-down RfCs because they address written policy instead of unwritten custom or "accepted practice"? I have not proposed to "drop" any requirement, I have proposed a very simple amendment to the language of the reviewing guide and only the reviewing guide (an amendment I oppose) without pretension that such an amendment will impact anything else. The problem you're having is that you're trying to read between the lines of a very simple and straightforward RfC and imagine a complex meaning, or wild plot, that simply doesn't exist. The closure of the RfC was inappropriate. LavaBaron (talk) 15:54, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- I think the salient point here is that the accepted practice is to require that all criteria be explicitly referenced in a DYK review. If you want to alter that, you want to rescind the longstanding requirement as stated in the instructions at T:TDYK. It is therefore misleading to describe retention of the criteria as an "amendment"; it's your proposal to drop the requirement that is effectively an amendment to the accepted procedure. Gatoclass (talk) 15:44, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
- LavaBaron, you may have a point in arguing that your RFC was not technically malformed. However, as I have since pointed out, it was misleading and POV in its presentation, in that it presented a proposal by you to overturn the status quo as the status quo, and conversely, presented the status quo position as if it were the new proposal. If you can't understand the problem with that, then I doubt there is much point in continuing this discussion. Gatoclass (talk) 16:11, 23 October 2015 (UTC)
DYK is almost overdue
In less than two hours Did you know will need to be updated, however the next queue either has no hooks or has not been approved by an administrator. It would be much appreciated if an administrator would take the time to ensure that DYK is updated on time by following these instructions:
- Check the prep areas; if there are between 6-10 hooks on the page then it is probably good to go. If not move approved hooks from the suggestions page and add them and the credits as required.
- Once completed edit queue #2 and replace the page with the entire content from the next update
- Add {{DYKbotdo|~~~}} to the top of the queue and save the page
Then, when the time is right I will be able to update the template. Thanks and have a good day, DYKUpdateBot (talk) 11:43, 23 October 2015 (UTC)