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have actually been warned enough that their blatant spamming would warrant blacklisting? --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 09:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC) |
have actually been warned enough that their blatant spamming would warrant blacklisting? --[[User:Beetstra|Dirk Beetstra]] <sup>[[User_Talk:Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">T</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Beetstra|<span style="color:#0000FF;">C</span>]]</sup> 09:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC) |
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::There seems to be no ambiguity about this: it is agreed that user talk pages are not deleted except under exceptional circumstances. this is indicated, for example, at [[WP:DELTALK]], and I am sure I have seen a much more strongly worded version of the same idea, though I don't remember where. It is important that we have record of what has been posted on user talk pages for future reference, and this is even more important with IP users than with registered users, as we do not indef-block IPs. If, as you say, administrators are deleting these pages "as blanked", then that is puzzling: as far as i know there is no provision for deleting a page just because it is blanked except for "author blanked" (CSD G7), and that does not apply here, as the criterion specifically says "a page other than a userspace page or category page". [[User:JamesBWatson|JamesBWatson]] ([[User talk:JamesBWatson|talk]]) 10:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC) |
Revision as of 10:47, 27 May 2010
Proposal for CSDs: essay and how-to
I would like to see two CSD reasons: {{db-essay}} and {{db-howto}}. Subsections below.
A11: How-to
- See examples "webcam model" and "writing stories" on user:timneu22/test.
Recently-created articles written in a second-person style that include instructions on how to do something. Articles titled with instructional titles inherently lend themselves to WP:POV, as second-person or "imperative" tone cannot ever be written in an encyclopedic or neutral manner. How-to/instructional articles generally consist of little to no introduction, no indication of the topic's relevance to a general audience, and material that is not only unsourced, but also that cannot be sourced. Any article title beginning with "how to" should be considered for this type of deletion immediatly (except when the article discusses a title of a work, like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days). While article titles of "how to" merit immediate CSD consideration, other articles with titles encouraging an instructional style should also be considered for deletion. Verb/noun combinations are CSD'd or redirected (writing stories, feeding birds, making brownies). Articles that discuss techniques of performing scientific or other notable endeavors (Methods of detecting extrasolar planets) do not fall under this criterion.
A12: Essays
- See examples "peace cop kenya" and "Digital Service Design and Innovation Processes and Methodologies" on user:timneu22/test
Articles titles that push a thesis, lend themselves to coming to a conclusion, and especially those written as to do such, should be deleted. Examples can best be described by kept and unkept articles: Civil Rights Act of 1964 describes an act, while "Civil Rights Act of 1964, summary", makes an attempt to come to a conclusion; Nuclear arms race is clearly notable, as would "Effect of nuclear arms on emerging economies" (if backed with reliable sources) but "How nuclear arms caused poverty in emerging economies" makes an attempt to push a conclusion. In many situations, editors attempt to paste an original research paper directly to wikipedia; these types of articles are often easily noticed by one or more of the following:
- Article title
- Introduction discussing a potential conclusion ("to prove that" or "can be suggested"
- Wording that clearly indicates original research, such as "this paper addresses" or "my findings of"
DISCUSSION
So those are my starting points for the wording of these potential CSDs. Maybe these are close enough that some tweaking could be done to make them happen? — Timneu22 · talk 20:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Surely, not this discussion again? Have you read all the previous discussions here why this is a bad idea and if so, why is your proposal different?
- Also, I think your proposals fail the requirements #1 and #3 at the top of this page and possibly also #2 and #4. Furthermore, you should explain why you think that WP:PROD and WP:AFD are not able to deal with those kind of articles in a satisfying way. Regards SoWhy 20:49, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- For background, there has been a discussion ongoing (linked in the above section as well) at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Additional_CSD_criteria. I asked for actual new criteria to be written up if we were going to have this conversation, and made sure the suggestions at the top of this page were in the mix. I have to say that as written these do not seem to be workable criteria, especially the "essay" one. As I said before, it's almost impossible to unambiguously state what is and is not an essay. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think you're still missing the point on the essay. If an article is titled Why Hitler was evil, it should be deleted using the essay criterion (regardless of its contents). Under what other category does it fall? Further, if an article is titled Evil Hitler and is written with text to prove a point ("This paper describes why Hitler was one of the worst people in history"), it should be deleted. These are both "essay" reasons, and I don't see another viable category. — Timneu22 · talk 10:37, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Another comment... in the previous discussion, someone mentioned we "can't delete based on tone", but that's nonsense... the text in {{db-advert}} states ...would require a fundamental rewrite in order to become encyclopedic. I've been mostly trying to work these CSD reasons under the premise that the title is not worthy of inclusion, however this "fundamental rewrite" text should also be included in the thought process as for reasons allowing a CSD based on the content of the article as well. The earlier version of Writing Stories certainly did require a fundamental rewrite; there's no reason for it to be anything but speedily deleted. — Timneu22 · talk 10:55, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Both of these criteria indicate articles that are in need of a rewrite. It is not at all clear that articles falling under them are in need of deletion. You keep coming backt to writing stories, however that article could be rewritten into writing process if the latter did not already exist. (As such writing stories was speediable, under A10). It would almost certainly be possible to rewrite "How nuclear arms caused poverty in emerging economies" into "How nuclear arms caused poverty in emerging economies". So even the examples you show are articles that not only should not be speedied, but quite possibly should not be deleted. G11 is an exeption, we keep it because people using wikipedia as a vector for advertisment is frequent enough to be a real problem. If we get the same problem with people using wikipedia to publish essays taking another look at db-essay above might be worth it, but at the moment it's not enough of a problem that we should implement deletion as the way to clean up essays. Taemyr (talk) 11:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Tell me, please, under which CSD reason Why Hitler was evil should be deleted. — Timneu22 · talk 11:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Judging from the title Why Hitler is evil would more than likely be a G10. Nancy talk 11:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- That covers "negative" articles, but then how about Why Hitler is great? Either way, the article title is an essay, pushing a POV; we really are missing a reason here. — Timneu22 · talk 11:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Please explain, as you were asked before, why there is any need to have a CSD reason for such articles when WP:PROD can handle it. Regards SoWhy 12:49, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Why should a blatant POV article exist for seven days? We need a speedy reason for this type of stuff. Why have CSD at all, if everything could be PROD? — Timneu22 · talk 12:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Because Wikipedia is based on consensus and as such decisions should be made by consensus, not by admins alone. As such, CSD is mostly restricted to those cases where deletion can't (not "shouldn't") wait for 7 days (i.e. G10, G12, etc.) or which appear far too often in the new page log to be handled by AFD and PROD (A7, G2 etc.) Articles like those you mention neither have to be deleted on sight nor do they happen often enough that standard processes can't handle them. As such, you as the one to propose them are the one who has to prove that your criteria fulfill the requirements on top of this page. Regards SoWhy 13:04, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Why should a blatant POV article exist for seven days? We need a speedy reason for this type of stuff. Why have CSD at all, if everything could be PROD? — Timneu22 · talk 12:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Please explain, as you were asked before, why there is any need to have a CSD reason for such articles when WP:PROD can handle it. Regards SoWhy 12:49, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- That covers "negative" articles, but then how about Why Hitler is great? Either way, the article title is an essay, pushing a POV; we really are missing a reason here. — Timneu22 · talk 11:50, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Judging from the title Why Hitler is evil would more than likely be a G10. Nancy talk 11:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Tell me, please, under which CSD reason Why Hitler was evil should be deleted. — Timneu22 · talk 11:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Both of these criteria indicate articles that are in need of a rewrite. It is not at all clear that articles falling under them are in need of deletion. You keep coming backt to writing stories, however that article could be rewritten into writing process if the latter did not already exist. (As such writing stories was speediable, under A10). It would almost certainly be possible to rewrite "How nuclear arms caused poverty in emerging economies" into "How nuclear arms caused poverty in emerging economies". So even the examples you show are articles that not only should not be speedied, but quite possibly should not be deleted. G11 is an exeption, we keep it because people using wikipedia as a vector for advertisment is frequent enough to be a real problem. If we get the same problem with people using wikipedia to publish essays taking another look at db-essay above might be worth it, but at the moment it's not enough of a problem that we should implement deletion as the way to clean up essays. Taemyr (talk) 11:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think the main problem here is people who patrol new pages see the extent of these problems, and others do not. Which requirements on this page do not match either proposed CSD? Specifically address it, and I'll specifically respond. Apparently there was a discussion on CSDs and WP:NOT a while ago, and people decided that just because an article does fall into WP:NOT, it shouldn't be CSD'd. I just disagree. It's a waste of everyone's time. — Timneu22 · talk 13:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I, like many other admins, am active in dealing with speedy requests and those you propose surely are created but they are not created often enough to warrant a new criterion (#3). What should be considered "blatant POV", just like what should be considered "unencyclopedic", varies from user to user and as such can't be a valid reason for an objective definition (#1). Last but not least most cases you describe are usually copy+paste additions that already violate copyright and thus fall under G12 or, if they only exist to come to a negative conclusion, G10. Those few that remain can be handled by PROD and AFD - if you think they can't, you need to explain why.
- You correctly noticed that WP:CSD#Non-criteria explicitly says that violating WP:NON is not a reason for deletion alone and that you disagree with that. You are free to do so. But you need to explain why all those who previously argued against such new criteria in countless previous discussions did so erroneously. Simply saying "I disagree" is not valid argument to change policy I'm afraid. Regards SoWhy 13:44, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- The problem is that what a lot of users declare is "obviously" speedily deletable isn't at all. Social netvetting was declared to be speedily deletable in that thread, but with my edits and a new title it will be fine. Writing Stories was declared to be speedily deletable, but it can be a valid redirect. Swami vivekananda senior secondary school raipur was declared to be a speedily deletable essay, but I slashed it down to be a workable stub (it'll still be deleted as it can't be verified, but that's not a speedy deletion criterion). Many essayish and how-toish articles can be reworked into being valid articles. Stop rushing to deletion and start thinking how to improve what someone has offered us. Fences&Windows 13:52, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- For background, there has been a discussion ongoing (linked in the above section as well) at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Additional_CSD_criteria. I asked for actual new criteria to be written up if we were going to have this conversation, and made sure the suggestions at the top of this page were in the mix. I have to say that as written these do not seem to be workable criteria, especially the "essay" one. As I said before, it's almost impossible to unambiguously state what is and is not an essay. Beeblebrox (talk) 22:40, 7 May 2010 (UTC)
- Tim, of course there's always the option of tagging bad pages with
{{db|reason}}
. I often see cases where pages don't quite fit under one of the numbered "criteria", but if it's bad enough, the deciding admin might delete it based on your reason. That way, these articles can be handled on a case-by-case basis, rather than making a blanket criterion which opens up us reviewing admins to numerous false-positive taggings. I honestly hear your frustration, btw. JamieS93❤ 13:57, 8 May 2010 (UTC)- db-reason is a gray area, as it still is just one administrator determining if the article should be deleted. In the case that the admin deletes the article, aren't they still required to give a CSD code? I'm trying to define a criterion so that there is some consistency. Why won't anyone acknowledge that POV-titled articles are deletable? Criticisms of socialism is different than Socialism is bad or Socialism is good (in this case "socialism is good" refers to a song, so it's a valid blue link). — Timneu22 · talk 14:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well, not "required". You can type anything you want into the deletion summary field, though the CSD criteria are on a list, available to choose from. JamieS93❤ 14:38, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- Just because an article has a POV title that does not mean that the article itself should be deleted. The article could be on a notable subject and the title may need to be reworked along with the article but have no reason to delete it. Deletion should not be about the title (except for a disparaging title}, it should be about the content and the notability/verifiability of the article itself. A potentially good article with a POV title can be moved to a NPOV title and the redirect deleted. ~~ GB fan ~~ talk 15:03, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- db-reason is a gray area, as it still is just one administrator determining if the article should be deleted. In the case that the admin deletes the article, aren't they still required to give a CSD code? I'm trying to define a criterion so that there is some consistency. Why won't anyone acknowledge that POV-titled articles are deletable? Criticisms of socialism is different than Socialism is bad or Socialism is good (in this case "socialism is good" refers to a song, so it's a valid blue link). — Timneu22 · talk 14:30, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I can see I won't get anywhere with this discussion, so I'll just continue AFDing obvious articles, and CSDing even more obvious articles. Sorry for wasting your time; I'll just continue wasting my own time, and other AFD people. Sorry no one is willing to work toward anything. — Timneu22 · talk 15:09, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- That's the attitude! We're all wrong; you're right (obviously). Please understand that speedy deletion is the 'nuclear option' to be reserved only for clear-cut cases, and that the classes of article you wish to speedily delete are not easily definable. You fail to mention the possibility of improving articles. Take a step back when doing new articles patrol to make sure the red mist hasn't descended and you're not biting the newbies. Fences&Windows 23:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
- I never said I was right, I never said you were wrong. All I've said is that essay and how-to articles pop up all the time and they are deleted all the time, and there should be speedy criteria for those. Now I'm going to go write Why Wikipedia is great, because that's encyclopedic. — Timneu22 · talk 00:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- You're still being sarcastic, not the way to persuade anyone. I acknowledge the problem of this category of articles, but I believe the dangers of a speedy deletion criterion for them outweighs the time savings. You haven't acknowledged the dangers at all, and your "no one is willing to work toward anything" implies obstructionism from others and shows you're not listening to the responses you received. Fences&Windows 00:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I'm done with it. I asked for specific responses to questions like "how could Why Hitler is great be valid"; the answer is that it cannot, yet no one has said such a thing. So when I see these types (over and over), I'll just use the generic "delete" with a reason. I really am done with this discussion. I am no longer watching this page. Thank you for participating. — Timneu22 · talk 00:48, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well, you're not listening any longer, you say, but I think you're missing the point, which you flag by asking "how could Why Hitler is great be valid" as if the answer to that, if "never," proves your point. The best answer, though non-direct, is to tell you to see the top of this page for what we look for in a criterion. But let me answer directly and explain why that answer is irrelevant. The answer is, indeed, it never would be valid. But that's not the issue at all. The issue is whether we can construct a speedy deletion criterion that is narrowly-tailored, recognizable, able to be applied without ambiguity to most topics that are within its ambit and arises frequently enough to bother. There are lots of essays that are not so clear cut; could be turned into a valid article, and would be deletable under another criterion. So yes, you've come up with an essay example that isn't in a gray area—that everyone can agree should be deleted, fits no other criterion, and is a waste if time to take to AfD as a foregone conclusion, but the case you would need to make is not that perfect examples exist, but that the criterion you would champion meets all the essays that are not prefect examples and meets the other bases for creation of a new criterion at the top of the page.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- As I said before, these are the kinds of articles you should use PROD for, and not waste other's time with AfDs of CSD proposals. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 11:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- To be fair, the example that started all this, the writing stories article, was in fact prodded, and the article's creator removed it without fixing the underlying problem. It was then sent to AFD, but Timneu tried to get is speedied as nonsense, which (although a terrible article) it was not and the speedy was declined (by me). So that's basically the series of events that touched this whole thing off. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:12, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- As I said before, these are the kinds of articles you should use PROD for, and not waste other's time with AfDs of CSD proposals. OrangeDog (τ • ε) 11:08, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well, you're not listening any longer, you say, but I think you're missing the point, which you flag by asking "how could Why Hitler is great be valid" as if the answer to that, if "never," proves your point. The best answer, though non-direct, is to tell you to see the top of this page for what we look for in a criterion. But let me answer directly and explain why that answer is irrelevant. The answer is, indeed, it never would be valid. But that's not the issue at all. The issue is whether we can construct a speedy deletion criterion that is narrowly-tailored, recognizable, able to be applied without ambiguity to most topics that are within its ambit and arises frequently enough to bother. There are lots of essays that are not so clear cut; could be turned into a valid article, and would be deletable under another criterion. So yes, you've come up with an essay example that isn't in a gray area—that everyone can agree should be deleted, fits no other criterion, and is a waste if time to take to AfD as a foregone conclusion, but the case you would need to make is not that perfect examples exist, but that the criterion you would champion meets all the essays that are not prefect examples and meets the other bases for creation of a new criterion at the top of the page.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not trying to persuade anyone. I'm done with it. I asked for specific responses to questions like "how could Why Hitler is great be valid"; the answer is that it cannot, yet no one has said such a thing. So when I see these types (over and over), I'll just use the generic "delete" with a reason. I really am done with this discussion. I am no longer watching this page. Thank you for participating. — Timneu22 · talk 00:48, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- You're still being sarcastic, not the way to persuade anyone. I acknowledge the problem of this category of articles, but I believe the dangers of a speedy deletion criterion for them outweighs the time savings. You haven't acknowledged the dangers at all, and your "no one is willing to work toward anything" implies obstructionism from others and shows you're not listening to the responses you received. Fences&Windows 00:34, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- I never said I was right, I never said you were wrong. All I've said is that essay and how-to articles pop up all the time and they are deleted all the time, and there should be speedy criteria for those. Now I'm going to go write Why Wikipedia is great, because that's encyclopedic. — Timneu22 · talk 00:24, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
- That's the attitude! We're all wrong; you're right (obviously). Please understand that speedy deletion is the 'nuclear option' to be reserved only for clear-cut cases, and that the classes of article you wish to speedily delete are not easily definable. You fail to mention the possibility of improving articles. Take a step back when doing new articles patrol to make sure the red mist hasn't descended and you're not biting the newbies. Fences&Windows 23:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Jumping in a little late in the game. The question was asked "Why can't AFD or PROD handle Why Hitler is evil?" The answer is, of course they can. But AFD and PROD can handle *all* of the CSD categories. The question is a red herring. The question *should* be, "Why *can't* there be a CSD for inherently POV essays?" I can't find a reason there can't besides the same reasons for all of the other CSD categories. If the article would require a full rewrite, including moving to an appropriate new article title, due to the inherent POV of the title and article, then it is better off just being speedy deleted. POV title for an article will always be wrong. There should be no reason to bother having an AFD debate about it. PROD just means it will sit there being POV for a longer time before it gets quietly cleaned away. CSD *should* handle this kind of case. CSD should handle anything that can not be fixed into encyclopedic shape, PROD should handle anything that given a little time could be encyclopedic, and AFD should handle anything that needs debate (everything else). A POV essay will never be encyclopedic, so it should be a CSD category. A "how-to" manual will never be encyclopedic, so it should be a CSD category. - UtherSRG (talk) 03:56, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- As has been discussed several times now, not only to we need a criterion that is specific and unambiguous, and we need more than anecdotal evidence to establish that is a big enough problem that we should bother creating yet another speedy criterion. So far I haven't seen either of those things. And so far most users participating in the discussion mostly agree that this is not a widespread or urgent issue that would require a new criterion. There is some proposed wording above, but it is too vague to be useful. If you think you can define what would and would not be deleted under this criteria you are welcome to try and come up with wording that would suffice. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:08, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that the proposal need better wording. I know I've seen "how-to" articles and "essay" articles. I'm not sure I agree that we should require that the problem to be "urgent" or "widespread" to create new CSD categories. CSD is a tool, as are AFD and PROD. As tool users, we should make sure that the tool box is properly stocked with all the varieties of tools we know we need (since we don't have to buy them *grins), even if we use one tool a hundred times more often than another tool. It is certainly better to have a tool and not need it, than to not have the tool and have to resort to a tool that is less appropriate (even if it is a capable tool for the job). I'll work on crafting better wording for A11 & A12. - UtherSRG (talk) 04:46, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- A11 redone for review. I have to do some real work.... I'll be back later for A12. - UtherSRG (talk) 05:03, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- A12 redone for review. - UtherSRG (talk) 07:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) You are missing the point imho. Wikipedia is built on consensus, so WP:AFD is the tool to delete articles. We create tools that don't require discussion only if a.) discussion is very unlikely to be required (WP:PROD) or b.) discussion is not only not required but would not be able to handle it (WP:CSD). Speedy deletion is subsidiary to regular deletion for a number of other reasons as well of course but the principle of decision by consensus is one of the most important ones. Rewriting the proposed criteria without addressing the concerns as to why we would require them at all will not solve the problem, will it? You will also need to address the concerns about subjectivity raised above, especially given examples like social netvetting which has been cited as an example for the criterion. Regards SoWhy 08:00, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- No, I'm not missing the point. If we agree that A11 and A12 are needed, then we have consensus that these kind of articles should be removed immediately. that's what this discussion is all about. If I were pushing through A11 and A12 deletions without this discussion, then I would be acting without consensus. So, moving from that, please tell me how an A11 article would require discussion. Eg. How to change a spark plug. I think A11 has a stronger case for being a CSD than A12 does, but I think the discussion is still important to have, even with my revision of their descriptions below. An A12 does require the CSD tagger to have a very discerning eye. Does that mean that AFD might be better, perhaps. Perhaps it just means that neither the original nor my rewrite are specific enough to justify CSD. In which case, perhaps a finer, narrower wording would suffice. Or perhaps there is not such wording that would work, and all unrewritable POV essays should go through AFD. (Social netvetting? I don't see that in the original or my rewrite...) - UtherSRG (talk) 08:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
A11: Assay of original text
Too much "why" these articles should be removed. Such text would go into the speedy tag and is mostly irrelevant to the description of the type of articles to be CSD'd.
A11: Rewrite
Articles directing or instructing the reader to perform some task. An answer to the question of How do I.... This criterion does not apply to articles that discuss techniques of performing scientific or other notable endeavors.
A11: Possible tag material
This article is a "how-to" manual and is written in an "imperative" or second-person tone. It may have no introduction, no indication of the topic's relevance to a general audience, or material that cannot be sourced. It does not seem to be able to be rewritten in an encyclopedic manner.
A11: Comments
I'll oppose this for the same reason I did a couple months back -- these have reasonable potential to be fixed. Maurreen (talk) 08:25, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Can you give me an example? I can't see something like How to change a spark plug being fixed into an encyclopedic article. - UtherSRG (talk) 08:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- It could be redirected to Tune-up. Several examples were given at the Pump discussion about Writing stories. Maurreen (talk) 08:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ok. Fair enough. So is it policy, then, to have redirects for impossible to write articles that redirect to somewhat related topics? Is this a good policy? Is there something gained, is there some value to the encyclopedia, by having how to change a spark plug redirect to tune-up? Having writing stories redirect to creative writing? I don't see it, so I'm hoping someone can enlighten me. - UtherSRG (talk) 09:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- The point is that such articles need to be examined on a case-by-case basis and not by a single admin alone. The argument you need to make is not why an article like this should not exist but why speedy deletion is the correct way to handle it and this means addressing the four requirements listed at the top of this page and explaining why you think your rewrite meets them. Regards SoWhy 09:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Is the rewrite not specific enough? I don't see anyone saying that the rewrite is too vague.
- Is there a case, given the rewrite, that should not be deleted? (I'm ignoring redirects, as that is essentially the same - the article is not seen.)
- This always seems vague to me. How many per day/month/year justifies passing or failing?
- No other CSD can currently affect this kind of article. AFD and PROD can be used for any deletion, regardless (this includes the existing CSDs).
- - UtherSRG (talk) 10:05, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Redirection here is wrong. There could be millions of "how to" redirects; "how to kill 100,000+ people" → Atomic bomb; "how to plant a garden" → garden. This is completely illogical. @UtherSRG, you've made all the right arguments, but there is refusal by the dissenting side to believe CSD is right. There's just no argument that will suffice. Sorry, looks like we tried. — Timneu22 · talk 10:31, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Many articles can contain elements of advice which would be covered by this criterion despite not being candidates for deletion. It also does not take into account that such articles could be rewritten.
- Articles that can be rewritten? Articles that contain useful information to be merged into others per WP:ATD?
- Quite simple actually. Ask yourself this: If all those articles covered by the criterion were instead be handled by AFD (and PROD), would this lead to a number of discussions that is so high that they cannot be handled anymore? Since they are currently handled just fine, this means it's likely not the case.
- G11 can cover those created for promotional purposes and G12 those copied from another website. I think these cover most such creations anyway since people usually don't start writing How-Tos just for Wikipedia.
- Regards SoWhy 10:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Why are these points from UtherSRG (similar to mine) not valid? If the article would require a full rewrite, including moving to an appropriate new article title, due to the inherent POV of the title and article, then it is better off just being speedy deleted. POV title for an article will always be wrong. There should be no reason to bother having an AFD debate about it. PROD just means it will sit there being POV for a longer time before it gets quietly cleaned away. CSD *should* handle this kind of case. CSD should handle anything that can not be fixed into encyclopedic shape, PROD should handle anything that given a little time could be encyclopedic, and AFD should handle anything that needs debate (everything else). A POV essay will never be encyclopedic, so it should be a CSD category. A "how-to" manual will never be encyclopedic, so it should be a CSD category. — Timneu22 · talk 10:34, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Redirection here is wrong. There could be millions of "how to" redirects; "how to kill 100,000+ people" → Atomic bomb; "how to plant a garden" → garden. This is completely illogical. @UtherSRG, you've made all the right arguments, but there is refusal by the dissenting side to believe CSD is right. There's just no argument that will suffice. Sorry, looks like we tried. — Timneu22 · talk 10:31, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- The point is that such articles need to be examined on a case-by-case basis and not by a single admin alone. The argument you need to make is not why an article like this should not exist but why speedy deletion is the correct way to handle it and this means addressing the four requirements listed at the top of this page and explaining why you think your rewrite meets them. Regards SoWhy 09:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ok. Fair enough. So is it policy, then, to have redirects for impossible to write articles that redirect to somewhat related topics? Is this a good policy? Is there something gained, is there some value to the encyclopedia, by having how to change a spark plug redirect to tune-up? Having writing stories redirect to creative writing? I don't see it, so I'm hoping someone can enlighten me. - UtherSRG (talk) 09:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- It could be redirected to Tune-up. Several examples were given at the Pump discussion about Writing stories. Maurreen (talk) 08:42, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Does this come up with any level of frequency (pre-criterion check #3)? Stifle (talk) 16:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Deletionists need to be aware of this discussion to keep track. I'd say YES. Currently, iPod repair is under CSD. It's written as "how-to", and its title isn't worthy of redirecting. — Timneu22 · talk 16:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
I support this proposal, because as a new page patroller, this category is probably one of the top three times that I use prod where the deletion is so uncontroversial that it can and should be speedied if the entire article has no useful content. I might suggest linking WP:NOTHOWTO in the proposed guidelines to the word "how-to." This would not apply to salvageable content or "elements of advice" that did not span the entire article --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 23:23, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
A12: Assay of original text
Too much focus on titles. If the title is the only thing wrong with an article, it can be moved to a new title. too much reliance on comparing to previous examples.
A12: Rewrite
Articles written in an essay style that push a thesis and that can not otherwise be rewritten to be encyclopedic.
A12: Possible tag material
This article is an essay or thesis designed to prove a point or push a specific agenda. It does not seem to be possible to rewrite the article in a neutral manner, or such an article already exists.
A12: Comments
Besides having reasonable potential to be fixed, I think determining whether something is an unencyclopedic essay is too subjective. Maurreen (talk) 08:27, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- The rewrite does not address that it fails the requirements, especially #1 and #3. Regards SoWhy 09:35, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- I can accept that it fails #1. I think this may be a subjective case always. I think #3 is always going to be hard to pin down. I think, though, that I've seen more A11's and A12's than I've seen of A2's or A5's. I'm not sure #3 is entirely a valid criterion for creating a CSD. - UtherSRG (talk) 10:10, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
What would be the best way to handle Paper on payed patiants? Someone tagged it for speedy with a non-CSD criteria. I agree the article should be removed, and does not need AFD nor PROD, but it doesn't fall under an existing category. (I can provide the text for anyone here who can't read it after deletion.) If we can just mark anything with {{db|reason}}
, then why do we have CSD categories in the first place? - UtherSRG (talk) 15:20, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- This is the exact thing I'm talking about. In this case, use reason T2: User:Timneu22/delete. ;-) — Timneu22 · talk 15:26, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Similar, city dressing. My gosh, the article even states its author. This is an essay! — Timneu22 · talk 15:37, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Not sure about #1, but #3 again doesn't seem to be met. Stifle (talk) 16:01, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have to disagree with both of these criteria. One could argue that A11 is fairly clear-cut, but I don't see a need to create a new CSD where a PROD will do. How-to articles are not inherently damaging to the project, they are just not what the project wants in an encyclopedia, so I don't really see that a speedy deletion is called for. A12 is more problematic -- the determination of an article's "essay-like" quality is sometimes clear-cut, and sometimes not, and there's no real line to be drawn to distinguish the clear-cut from the not-so-clear-cut. I like the idea of letting such articles go through a more considered deletion process to allow more eyes on them before they are deleted. WikiDan61ChatMe!ReadMe!! 16:33, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Two things:
- Why wait on PROD to kill off bad articles?
- What's the harm in having A12? My guess is that admins will get this right 99.99% of the time, with the rest possibly lending itself to debate. I think that is generous. The point is to have a valid reason for proposing deletions. There is some contradiction here. Earlier, it was stated that one could just use {{delete}} with a reason that doesn't necessarily have to be a CSD reason. That's wrong. I've seen admins who delete using WP:IAR as the reason, admins who refuse the CSD altogether, or those who delete after moving to G12 or some other sort of "catch-all" reason (at least that's how it is being used). If {{delete}} is to be used, why have the CSDs? If the CSDs are to be used, why have {{delete}}? I'd like to see clear-cut reasons so there is consistency. Right now there is none. — Timneu22 · talk 16:41, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Two things:
- I'm getting the feeling that the real problem here is that some people just don't like being told no by an admin, and don't like waiting for something when it is theoretically possible for it to happen right away. We shouldn't be looking at it as killing the bad material, the point is to improve the encyclopedia. The fact is, admins have to say no all the time. There are thousands of people going around tagging articles and making various requests for admin actions. There are over a thousand admins. So, a request that one admin might deny might not be denied by another admin, and sometimes users make requests that are not based on policy, or which stretch that policy into places it was never intended to go. Sometimes we have to remind each other that just because we policy says we could do something does not mean we must do it. There are always going to be things that are clearly not appropriate for this project but do not fit any of our specific criteria. There are always going to be things getting deleted that should have been kept. The world is an imperfect place full of imperfect people. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:52, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well when an admin has to use ignore all rules as the deletion criterion, it seems like you're missing an important criterion. The lack of a rule prevented that deletion from using one of the agreed-upon CSD reasons. And we're talking about killing articles that cannot become encyclopedic, not articles that can be improved. I still believe that Writing stories is nonsense to keep as a redirect. Was that someone's idea of "improving" the encyclopedia? Again, let's just redirect How to grow green veggies to garden. — Timneu22 · talk 17:57, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, consider it done. Redirects are navigation aids for helping users find the content they are looking for, they are not judged the same way as articles. If there is even a chance that one user one day might find the article they wanted because of a particular redirect, then it has done it's job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beeblebrox (talk • contribs)
- Actually, a redirect may hide good potential destinations in a search. A redirect is of significantly more use in creating links in an article (so more use to an editor) than it is to searching for an article (less use to a reader). wikipedia's built-in search mechanism is quite powerful. Try it yourself. Here's a search I did myself. If playing a flute were a redirect to flute or flautist, I'd miss pompoir! One never knows what idiomatic meanings a phrase might have, and making it a redirect will hide those meanings in a search. - UtherSRG (talk) 08:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- If Playing the flute redirected to Flute, Flute could have a hatlink:
- Actually, a redirect may hide good potential destinations in a search. A redirect is of significantly more use in creating links in an article (so more use to an editor) than it is to searching for an article (less use to a reader). wikipedia's built-in search mechanism is quite powerful. Try it yourself. Here's a search I did myself. If playing a flute were a redirect to flute or flautist, I'd miss pompoir! One never knows what idiomatic meanings a phrase might have, and making it a redirect will hide those meanings in a search. - UtherSRG (talk) 08:36, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, consider it done. Redirects are navigation aids for helping users find the content they are looking for, they are not judged the same way as articles. If there is even a chance that one user one day might find the article they wanted because of a particular redirect, then it has done it's job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beeblebrox (talk • contribs)
- Well when an admin has to use ignore all rules as the deletion criterion, it seems like you're missing an important criterion. The lack of a rule prevented that deletion from using one of the agreed-upon CSD reasons. And we're talking about killing articles that cannot become encyclopedic, not articles that can be improved. I still believe that Writing stories is nonsense to keep as a redirect. Was that someone's idea of "improving" the encyclopedia? Again, let's just redirect How to grow green veggies to garden. — Timneu22 · talk 17:57, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm getting the feeling that the real problem here is that some people just don't like being told no by an admin, and don't like waiting for something when it is theoretically possible for it to happen right away. We shouldn't be looking at it as killing the bad material, the point is to improve the encyclopedia. The fact is, admins have to say no all the time. There are thousands of people going around tagging articles and making various requests for admin actions. There are over a thousand admins. So, a request that one admin might deny might not be denied by another admin, and sometimes users make requests that are not based on policy, or which stretch that policy into places it was never intended to go. Sometimes we have to remind each other that just because we policy says we could do something does not mean we must do it. There are always going to be things that are clearly not appropriate for this project but do not fit any of our specific criteria. There are always going to be things getting deleted that should have been kept. The world is an imperfect place full of imperfect people. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:52, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
Fences&Windows 19:42, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
- This discussion is out of hand. There was no reason except smugness to create How to grow green veggies. That is a redirection to a section of an article, and that section does not describe how to grow green veggies; indeed it should not, because wikipedia is not a how-to site. Did you just do this to prove a point? I think we should delete that new redirect immediately. If you don't, this sets a precedent for anything ridiculous. How to hit a baseball, how to catch a baseball, how to win the lottery, how to edit wikipedia, how to ride a racehorse, how to build a patio. None of these are valid titles, and for you to create how to grow green veggies should just be an insult to the community. Get some perspective here, people. This is not what wikipedia was supposed to have become. It's not a how-to site. — Timneu22 · talk 12:25, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Discussion continued
(too many discussions above with multiple sections; hard to follow)
Can someone please provide a definition for "frequency"? I've been looking at this for only a couple hours a day for the past few days, and averaging about one every 8 hours. That's three a day, or a 1000 per year. Isn't that frequent? Here's the latest: Air Pollution: Causes, Consequences and Control. — Timneu22 · talk 12:55, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- And another, clear essay: PR-101: Use Trade Shows to Attract Media. Please let us work to get a reason to CSD these! — Timneu22 · talk 18:41, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- And another how-to: How to Post an Ad on Craig's List. — Timneu22 · talk 18:48, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
- From previous consensus, "frequent" means "more than AFD/PROD can handle". 3 such articles a day can easily be handled by the existing processes, thus allowing for consensus-based deletion and input, possibly how to fix them to something useful instead of deletion. Regards SoWhy 08:48, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- It's just three from the little bit of work I did in it. New page patrollers (such as User:Fiftytwo thirty, above) can probably tell you that it's more. As discussed before, it's not just the frequency that matters, but the likelihood of deletion in prod/afd processes. These get deleted 100% of the time in AFD. So we're wasting time there. And we have been talking, the entire time, about articles that cannot be fixed to be something useful, where the how-to elements span the entire article (and usually, where the article title itself is incorrect). — Timneu22 · talk 10:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- I still don't see any criteria that would objectively determine articles that aren't fixable. "How to" might be easier to make an objective CSD standard. But, as has been discussed earlier, Writing stories could become Narrative or Writing process. Maurreen (talk) 13:18, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- But any article that is "how to [do something]" cannot; those are clear-cut, non-encyclopedic titles. — Timneu22 · talk 13:20, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Reference: here's a list of how-to articles that currently exist. They are all proper titles of books/etc. We should make sure things stay that way. — Timneu22 · talk 13:26, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- We're talking about more than the title here. We're talking about how-to articles, where the content is completely second-person and unencyclopedic. What is the objection to recognizing this problem exists? How to post an Ad on Craig's List may indeed have some content that is worth keeping, but that content would be posted into Craigslist after being made encyclopedic. A redirect is inappropriate because the target doesn't explain how to actually post the ad. — Timneu22 · talk 13:29, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Consider this example, hypothetical as far as I know: Someone writes How to train your dog. Someone else tweaks it to Dog training or Dog trainers. How to train your dog is mostly "Do such-and-so". Dog training includes "Such-and-so is used to teach the dog whatever-it-is." Dog trainers includes "Dog trainers do such-and-so." Maurreen (talk) 13:39, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- How to train your dog, even if redirected to dog training, is not valid. The dog training article, if written to standards, will likely include methods of training but not instructions for using those methods. This is the difference. Any of these how-to articles that go to afd are deleted unanimously with numerous WP:NOT#HOWTO comments. So that seems CSD-worthy, no? — Timneu22 · talk 13:43, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- Compare these two: From my sandbox, How to train your dog using reinforcement and a Dog training#Rewards similar section at the dog training article. There's not much difference. Maurreen (talk) 14:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
Maybe some language can be used to make the proposal a little more narrow, (e.g. Articles directing or instructing the reader to perform some task. An answer to the question of How do I...., where the article does not contain any encyclopedic information that is not already included in relevant articles.) Often, for many of the cases I see and that you have mentioned, articles about "how to train your dog" and PR-101: Use Trade Shows to Attract Media, have content that is either a). Not suitable to be on WP at any time or b). Have content that is already written in an objective way elsewhere. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 20:24, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
- This sounds reasonable to me, but I'm not one of the dissenters here. My goal with this was to provide wording for A11 and A12, and have that wording be tweaked. (The original said "instructs the user to do something".) Would anyone here actually care to help tweak the wording, or are you just going to continue to disagree? — Timneu22 · talk 10:34, 15 May 2010 (UTC)
- Formulating a narrow CSD criterion that catches all essays is impossible, imho. The only possible remedy I see is to forbid page creators to remove {{prod}} templates. This way we could prod the article and if really no-one else cares about it it will be gone after 7 days. --Pgallert (talk) 14:31, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
- How to blow shit up and How to kill somebody were just created. (Really!) I hope you don't mind that I just tagged them for CSD. — Timneu22 · talk 16:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
- I do not mind, but I would not ever have encountered these contributions, so for me a prod would just have been fine. Once they come to AfD, though, an entry like this would let me sigh "Do we really have to discuss this?".
- To take up a thought from further above: Deleting this stuff on sight improved the encyclopedia. So in absence of a valid criterion, IAR is the reason to speedily delete this stuff. Pity administrators are actually afraid to apply this rule. --Pgallert (talk) 23:22, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
- "Deleting this stuff on sight improved the encyclopedia." Exactly why we need this to be a speedy deletion category. This criteria would, though not all-encompassing, take some of these stupid discussions away from AfD and make it so that NPPers don't have to babysit prods for seven days. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 00:26, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- How to blow shit up and How to kill somebody were just created. (Really!) I hope you don't mind that I just tagged them for CSD. — Timneu22 · talk 16:47, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
My thoughts: I don't see how these particular proposals can achieve the status of needed clarity and lack of likely controversy in themselves. They also don't lend themselves to preservation of data. Some essays are researched and cite sources. Even if they are meant for persuasion rather than background information, they often contain enough information to be worth preserving on the talk pages of existing articles, or subpages of them. There's nothing I know of in policy that prevents researched essays from being moving to article talk pages or subpages. Speedy deletion would rule this out.
And for egregious examples, we already have patent nonsense as a grounds for speedy deletion. And I firmly think that bullshit is patent nonsense. Here's a particularly ripe example from "Work Management": Work Management is a strategy for planning and getting work done through people. The management of work is distributed through most people involved (not just managers).... Key components to be managed are:
* People - doing the work and affected by the work (stakeholders),
* Tasks – what needs to be achieved,
* Actions – the work to complete tasks, and
* Management processes –processes that make work flow
Work management coordinates the dynamic relationships between the key components, so work gets done. Work management uses a distributed management paradigm and technology, rather than traditional manager centric approaches....
As Truman Capote saidm "that's not writing --- that's typing." And it is also "(c)ontent that, while apparently meaningful after a fashion, is so completely and irredeemably confused that no reasonable person can be expected to make any sense of it whatsoever". Bullshit like that already qualifies for speedy deletion under existing categories, in my opinion. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 15:03, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Which category? It was explained to me that "patent nonsense" is only something like "hello dryer sheet piano keyboard airbrush yo momma" — Timneu22 · talk 15:07, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- I interpret "patent nonsense" to be a bit broader than that; WP:NONSENSE, as noted, includes "(c)ontent that, while apparently meaningful after a fashion, is so completely and irredeemably confused that no reasonable person can be expected to make any sense of it whatsoever", and I consider texts like the one noted from the "Work Management" article to meet that definition precisely. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 15:10, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well in any case it was clearly WP:OR/essay also. Hence this discussion... — Timneu22 · talk 15:13, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- A new article popped up today, User:timneu22/test#Photographs in social networking sites; this is essayish and how-to, which is one reason why I created A11 and A12 at the same time. Frankly, this should be deletable under "patent nonsense", but what's the appropriate resolution? — Timneu22 · talk 12:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, that "Photographs" text isn't patent nonsense by my lights. It actually attempts to present and convey (unreferenced) information; it isn't meaningless logorrhea, like that other article's assertion that work management involves managing people who perform actions to achieve tasks. What it is, is an advocacy piece warning you of the danger: if you put your photo on the Internet, strangers can learn what you look like. (Wait --- that is also trivial, tautological, and uninformative, and therefore patent nonsense too.) - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 00:27, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- A new article popped up today, User:timneu22/test#Photographs in social networking sites; this is essayish and how-to, which is one reason why I created A11 and A12 at the same time. Frankly, this should be deletable under "patent nonsense", but what's the appropriate resolution? — Timneu22 · talk 12:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well in any case it was clearly WP:OR/essay also. Hence this discussion... — Timneu22 · talk 15:13, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- I interpret "patent nonsense" to be a bit broader than that; WP:NONSENSE, as noted, includes "(c)ontent that, while apparently meaningful after a fashion, is so completely and irredeemably confused that no reasonable person can be expected to make any sense of it whatsoever", and I consider texts like the one noted from the "Work Management" article to meet that definition precisely. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 15:10, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
New Idea
After reading some of the above comments I am finding a few fundamental flaws with proposed criteria A12. There are just too many different things that can fall under it. Just because an article does not have a NPOV does not always mean that it is deletable, and not notable or able to be improved. I agree that many newbies don't understand that Wikipedia articles do not prove a thesis, but with some patience they can be helped make articles better. I also agree that this criteria is way too subjective. Particularly the article copied to User:Timneu22/test#Digital Service Design and Innovation Processes and Methodologies is decently referenced and could be improved with cooperation, while the other essay, in my opinion, blatantly promotes something, and is G11 eligible. On the other hand, A11 deals with articles that would be Snowball AfDs, and are usually uncontestably deletable, no matter the subject matter. While I have seen some arguments that there is content worth saving, I see no way that any of that content would pass the restrictive language that I put in above. Bottom line: We should Scrap A12, but move forward with A11. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 21:44, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't seen a criteria that meets the four standards at the top of the page. But in any case, I agree with you making a new section for any continuing discussion. Maurreen (talk) 23:32, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Can we start with this text and then chip away at it? Instead of creating new sections, maybe just edit the text directly (with or without strikethrus) and/or make good edit summaries? Again, this paragraph is meant to be similar to Wikipedia:Csd#Articles. — Timneu22 · talk 23:57, 19 May 2010 (UTC)
- Proposed text:
- Recently-created articles written in a second-person style that include instructions on how to do something. An answer to the question of How do I...., where the article does not contain any encyclopedic information that is not already included in relevant articles. Articles titled with instructional titles, such as "how to do X", are unencyclopedic and inherently lend themselves to WP:POV.
as second-person or "imperative" tone cannot ever be written in an encyclopedic or neutral manner. How-to/instructional articles generally consist of little to no introduction, no indication of the topic's relevance to a general audience, and material that is not only unsourced, but also that cannot be sourced. Any article title beginning with "how to" should be considered for this type of deletion immediately (except when the article discusses a title of a work, like How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days). While article titles of "how to" merit immediate CSD consideration,Other articles withtitlescontent that is written inencouragingan instructional styleshould also be consideredare also eligible for deletion.Verb/noun combinations are CSD'd or redirected (writing stories, feeding birds, making brownies).Articles that discuss techniques of performing scientific or other notable endeavors (Methods of detecting extrasolar planets), or proper titles of works (How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days) do not fall under this criterion.
- Recently-created articles written in a second-person style that include instructions on how to do something. An answer to the question of How do I...., where the article does not contain any encyclopedic information that is not already included in relevant articles. Articles titled with instructional titles, such as "how to do X", are unencyclopedic and inherently lend themselves to WP:POV.
- Made a few changes, reducing explanation and putted related ideas together. It should be a little clearer below without all of the strikes. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 01:38, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Recently-created articles written in a second-person style that include instructions on how to do something. An answer to the question of How do I...., where the article does not contain any encyclopedic information that is not already included in relevant articles. Articles titled with instructional titles, such as "how to do X", are unencyclopedic and inherently lend themselves to WP:POV. Other articles with content that is written in an instructional style are also eligible for deletion. Articles that discuss techniques of performing scientific or other notable endeavors (Methods of detecting extrasolar planets), or proper titles of works (How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days) do not fall under this criterion.
- This seems reasonable to me, however I'd like at least one example in the sentence "other articles with content that is written in an instructional style..."; for example "making brownies" is essentially the same as "how to make brownies" (and the same is true for other original examples). — Timneu22 · talk 09:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- How to upload a youtube video *grumble grumble* --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 21:22, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Here's an idea for a non-problematic title but problem content: Title: Homemade brownies Content: My grandmother makes delicious brownies. Now you can make them too! Preheat the oven to 350 degrees. Add one cup water, two cups flour, one cup sugar to a bowl and stir...
- And another Title: New computer (This is made up, though this was deleted per AfD before) Content: When you get a new computer, you will want to see its new features. But before you do, make sure to save all pakaging before you are sure that you want your computer. Connect all perhipherals like keyboards, monitors, and mice before booting up. When you boot up, immediately install security software to protect your computer... --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 21:47, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm all for this idea, but I still think A11 and A12 are both valid. There's another new article, Ecuador buses, that doesn't have an awful title, but the content is obvious WP:ESSAY. The article includes both how-to (to get a ticket...) and it has a conclusion section (POV). So there is some blurredness involved here. I'll state that I could see how "buses in Ecuador" may be a valid topic, but not with the content that is here. — Timneu22 · talk 18:15, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'd say this falls under A11 because its primary content is written in second person, includes "how to" and "where to" content, and contains no content that is worth saving. I really would not be surprised if this is a copyvio. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 19:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm all for this idea, but I still think A11 and A12 are both valid. There's another new article, Ecuador buses, that doesn't have an awful title, but the content is obvious WP:ESSAY. The article includes both how-to (to get a ticket...) and it has a conclusion section (POV). So there is some blurredness involved here. I'll state that I could see how "buses in Ecuador" may be a valid topic, but not with the content that is here. — Timneu22 · talk 18:15, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- How to upload a youtube video *grumble grumble* --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 21:22, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- This seems reasonable to me, however I'd like at least one example in the sentence "other articles with content that is written in an instructional style..."; for example "making brownies" is essentially the same as "how to make brownies" (and the same is true for other original examples). — Timneu22 · talk 09:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
- Recently-created articles written in a second-person style that include instructions on how to do something. An answer to the question of How do I...., where the article does not contain any encyclopedic information that is not already included in relevant articles. Articles titled with instructional titles, such as "how to do X", are unencyclopedic and inherently lend themselves to WP:POV. Other articles with content that is written in an instructional style are also eligible for deletion. Articles that discuss techniques of performing scientific or other notable endeavors (Methods of detecting extrasolar planets), or proper titles of works (How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days) do not fall under this criterion.
Update db-r2 to cover books
The purpose of {{db-r2}} is so users looking for content are not redirected to non-content. The template should be updated to reflect the reality that WP:Books are content, and likewise there should not be redirects from Book:Title to X or Foospace:X. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 20:40, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- I went ahead and changed {{db-r2}} to match the wording of the actual criterion as found here (redirects to any namespace except a very few). We'll see if it sticks - but in the meantime anyone who hates the current wording is free to revert me. — Gavia immer (talk) 21:45, 18 May 2010 (UTC)
- That sounds like a reasonable expansion of the criterion, but it probably needs more eyes on it before changing things. — Gavia immer (talk) 15:26, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
Who can nominate under G4
(I've made a quick search for this in the archives and couldn't find a discussion, but if it's there and I've missed it please feel free to just point me to it.) Query: An new page patroller who is a non–sysop sees that a page has been restarted that was previously deleted pursuant to a deletion discussion. Not being a sysop, he cannot see the deleted version of the page to see if they are or are not substantially similar. Can that editor nominate that page for speedy deletion under G4 without breaching AGF, based perhaps on the fact that the sysop who reviews the G4 nomination will have the obligation to compare the versions? If the answer is "no," is a non-sysop who nominates a page under G4 subject to warning, criticism, or censure for doing so, or do we AGF and presume that he or she had sufficient knowledge about the deleted page to make the nomination? And does the answer to the last question change if it turns out that the new page is in fact substantially different from the deleted page? Best regards, TRANSPORTERMAN (TALK) 14:20, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- While somewhat convoluted, a fair question. G4 should not simply be tagged because there was a previous discussion in order to have the content checked. Timing, sources, origin and the available content of the previous XfD discussion matter. There are many valid G4 tags by nonadmins, however. Some will be by participants of the XfD who know the content. In other cases the sources of the new draft have been discussed in the XfD or clearly show no sign of addressing the concerns of the discussion. Not to mention immediate reposts after XfD closure by the unhappy creator or an associate. On the other hand, I would not apply the tag immediately in case of doubt and maybe open up a talk page thread first which can link to the old discussion. In the end we want to enforce with G4 valid consensus, but have the article if it can be written according to our principles. --Tikiwont (talk) 14:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well said. Basically G4 serves as a way for non-admins to alert admins that someone is trying to circumvent consensus and mostly that happens shortly after an XFD has taken place. I think it's probably better to ask an admin directly though if you don't know whether it is a recreation or not. Regards SoWhy 08:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- Nearly all of the G4s I see are on the same topic, occasionaly not. Most are also are a recreation, possibly with a very small variation. I don't hold it against the nominator if it does not result in a deletion. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 22:12, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- Well said. Basically G4 serves as a way for non-admins to alert admins that someone is trying to circumvent consensus and mostly that happens shortly after an XFD has taken place. I think it's probably better to ask an admin directly though if you don't know whether it is a recreation or not. Regards SoWhy 08:14, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
G5 - Block?
When did G5 get expanded to include blocks? (OK, I'm not stupid, I looked it up, it happened in February, but you get my point.) Honestly, the wording as it is right now makes little to no sense to me. How is it possible to edit in violation of a block? Is this to refer to users that are evading blocks? The reason I ask is because I'm seeing editors nominate articles for G5 where the user was blocked some time after the edit, but the article meets no other criteria. I really don't see this as being a valid speedy deletion criteria. If the editor were blocked before the edit (and thus evaded the block) then maybe, but not "Sorry, you got blocked, so now we can delete all your pages." There are way too many "good" (non-vandal) reasons to get blocked for that to be reasonable. I'd propose that this be restored to just targeting banned users, but short of that, at least a specific wording that it's targeting users evading blocks (unless I'm missing something here). --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 20:53, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- I fail to see your problem. It says currently that the creation needs to have been "in violation of their ban or block", i.e. it only applies to articles created after the user was banned or blocked. Such nominations you mention are not within G5's scope nor should they be. The point of G5 is to enforce the ban/block in question by reverting edits that violate it (which with new pages means to delete them), not to punish someone after they have been blocked. Regards SoWhy 20:59, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- That's somewhat of my point; that's what I expect the meaning to be, but I'm seeing a lot of people that are mistaking it as "blocked users should have their pages deleted. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 01:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- (e/c) Yes, people evading their bans or blocks. Pages created "..in violation of their ban or block" can only refer, by plain meaning, to pages created after the block or ban and during the time they were still blocked or banned. I don't see any ambiguity. Can you point to some examples of pages where the page was tagged under G5 improperly with this particular confusion happening? Though I don't think the language is ambiguous in the slightest, if it is really causing confusion, then maybe some clarifying language can be appended, maybe just like I said above:
Note: for a page to qualify it must have been created by the user after the block or ban issued, and while the user was still blocked or banned.
We should only use this or another qualifier if it is shown to be a common cause of confusion though.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 21:10, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- I will try to gather some examples; the most recent one is a somewhat fragmented discussion I had with a user (you can still see the trail ending of it on my talk page) which triggered this discussion, though I'm sure I can find more examples. I would support the added note if it can be shown to be a common problem (and not just a string of bad luck I'm witnessing). --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 01:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- And probably only if the common confusion caused an admin to be confused as well and act on the invalid tagging.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 09:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- On a side note, I put some visual emphasis on that part of G5 on WP:CSD. I doubt it helps much, but maybe a little. Shirik, I think you should simply decline those taggings and educate the users who did them. Changing the wording will probably not help anyway. Regards SoWhy 12:12, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- Makes sense; I'll just drop notes with the people that tagged them. --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 15:34, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- On a side note, I put some visual emphasis on that part of G5 on WP:CSD. I doubt it helps much, but maybe a little. Shirik, I think you should simply decline those taggings and educate the users who did them. Changing the wording will probably not help anyway. Regards SoWhy 12:12, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- And probably only if the common confusion caused an admin to be confused as well and act on the invalid tagging.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 09:20, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- I will try to gather some examples; the most recent one is a somewhat fragmented discussion I had with a user (you can still see the trail ending of it on my talk page) which triggered this discussion, though I'm sure I can find more examples. I would support the added note if it can be shown to be a common problem (and not just a string of bad luck I'm witnessing). --Shirik (Questions or Comments?) 01:47, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
New category needed?
While new page patrolling I stumbled upon My 2010 atlantic hurricane season predictions, which as its name implies was a little essay by some chap giving his predictions for future hurricanes. OK, obviously this is incontestably something that needs to be deleted. But which category? I put up a template for speedy deletion as "patent nonsense" but another new page patroller removed that in good faith, correctly pointing out that the category did not apply. So I put on a "hoax" template, and it was just deleted. However, technically speaking it wasn't quite a hoax, and I'm not sure "vandalism" would have applied either. Yet obviously we don't want to go through the ordinary deletion process with something so obviously inappropriate.
I've actually had something resembling this problem before. I forget the article, and of course it's now deleted. The question is, should there be a new category? Maybe "blatantly and undeniably inappropriate" or something like that? ScottyBerg (talk) 23:08, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
- There will, unfortunately, always be articles that should obviously be deleted but are not going to fall under a CSD category. The CSD criteria should be there to deal with classes of articles that are almost always inappropriate. A criterion like "blatantly and undeniably inappropriate" would be, unfortunately, far too broad. Consider Criticism of Judaism, which was recently nominated for deletion. A number of editors believed, in good faith, that this was blatantly and undeniably inappropriate, and yet the community consensus was that in should be kept.
- There are, of course, gaps in the CSD criteria that could be filled with new criteria, but there will always be article such as the one you mentioned that may not currently fall into a valid criteria. Many editors bend the rules and delete it under a criterion it does not meet, but I see no problem in slapping a
{{hoax}}
template or other article issues templates on it and then prodding it. Articles clearly tagged as being spurious (provided there aren't libel issues involved, see G10) don't do a huge amount of damage if they sit there so tagged for five minutes or seven days. -- Lear's Fool (talk | contribs) 02:43, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- There's an entire discussion about essays and how-tos (above on this page), trying to introduce speedy reasons for these nonsense articles. No consensus. The best admins delete them as WP:IAR, but I've only seen this happen once or twice. Join the conversation above, if you want. — Timneu22 · talk 03:09, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think the essays and how-to proposal are really applicable to the kind of article I'm describing. One possible solution is to expand G1 or G3 by just a tad. I'll see if I can think of some possible language.ScottyBerg (talk) 17:04, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I agree, I think that G3 should be expanded to include articles about made-up subjects, even when their creator doesn't mean to fool us (it's the case of My 2010 atlantic hurricane season predictions). Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 15:02, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Does that include something like Becoming a Writer? In general, does that include any title that cannot be encyclopedic? — Timneu22 · talk 15:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, I think WP:MADEUP definitely points the way toward a new CSD category, and that definitely include an article like "becoming a writer." I disagree that a grossly, obviously unsurvivable, hopeless article should be allowed to fester for seven days during a PROD process, which if contested then requires a full blown AfD process. I think that we need to take a stronger stand against articles that are indisputably inappropriate, but which don't fall into the current categories. WP:MADEUP provides good criteria for that. ScottyBerg (talk) 15:09, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- @Timneu: Uhm, that's not exactly what I was referring to. I was thinking more of articles such as Kaiocracy — unfortunately, only admins will be able to see this article —, which dealt with a new form of government the creator had just come up with. Articles such as Becoming a writer in my opinion should not qualify, unless it's blatant vandalism (but in that case, G3 is already there). Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 15:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Becoming a writer should qualify as something, no? — Timneu22 · talk 15:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I think I would WP:PROD it per WP:NOT#OR, but if we were to get a new criterion to deal with those articles, I definitely would not oppose it. Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 17:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- That discussion is above, A11 and A12. — Timneu22 · talk 17:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I can see how one might raise a concern about "Becoming an XYZ", that it might not meet the speedy criteria. But if people are just making up stuff, that definitely should be speedied. I commend whichever editor conceived of WP:MADEUP, as it describes a path that I think would help tremendously in ridding Wikipedia of new-page trash not explicitly covered by the current CSD guidelines. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Thanks, Timneu22! I read it, but I've chosen not to throw my two cents in, yet. ;) Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 17:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think that the kind of article described in WP:MADEUP is a different species than the ones described in A11 and A12. While "made up" subjects like "my hurricane predictions" are indeed essays, and perhaps there should be a CSD criteria for essays, that describes a more narrow subset of articles, albeit one that I suggest is not uncommon. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Thanks, Timneu22! I read it, but I've chosen not to throw my two cents in, yet. ;) Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 17:27, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I can see how one might raise a concern about "Becoming an XYZ", that it might not meet the speedy criteria. But if people are just making up stuff, that definitely should be speedied. I commend whichever editor conceived of WP:MADEUP, as it describes a path that I think would help tremendously in ridding Wikipedia of new-page trash not explicitly covered by the current CSD guidelines. ScottyBerg (talk) 17:25, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- That discussion is above, A11 and A12. — Timneu22 · talk 17:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Personally, I think I would WP:PROD it per WP:NOT#OR, but if we were to get a new criterion to deal with those articles, I definitely would not oppose it. Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 17:20, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Becoming a writer should qualify as something, no? — Timneu22 · talk 15:46, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- @Timneu: Uhm, that's not exactly what I was referring to. I was thinking more of articles such as Kaiocracy — unfortunately, only admins will be able to see this article —, which dealt with a new form of government the creator had just come up with. Articles such as Becoming a writer in my opinion should not qualify, unless it's blatant vandalism (but in that case, G3 is already there). Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 15:15, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
"At original posting"
We have an ongoing problem with certain New Page Patrollers, who seem to think that Wikipedia is best served by making sure that people who are creating pages feel attacked if initial draft isn't a perfect stub. For example, this editor has announced that CSD A1 applies to any page that "at original posting, contains minimal text". The actual A1, as I'm sure editors here know, contains no timing restriction. He spammed a CSD tag into an article just one minute after its creation, which is how I discovered his essay; a trip through his contributions today shows that all of his CSD nominations are within zero(!) to seven minutes of the page's initial creation.
The community has repeatedly announced and confirmed its preference for giving editors (especially new ones!) a fair chance to write the article before spamming tags into them (see, e.g., the text at the top of Special:NewPages and most of WP:NPP). The community's concerns revolve around biting newcomers, irritating experienced editors, and discouraging article creation.
A handful of patrollers have rejected the community's repeated requests. Unfortunately, these editors also seem to be the ones with the worst grasp of the CSD requirements. Not only are they trying to make decisions on the basis of drafts that are only seconds old (which is a serious handicap), most of them seem to produce more than their fair share of declined CSDs.
Could we add a section to this page that addresses this problem, and formally directs patrollers to normally avoid tagging a new page as a CSD within, say, the first 10-15 minutes of its existence? WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's high time. I added the language that addresses this to newpages (and I just noticed it's been toned down and made less prominent) as well as creating {{Hasty}} as a mechanical fix for the issue. If people want to review past discussions on this issue of tagging moments after creation, here's a sampling from the archives (and there's been more at the village pump): 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 03:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- So, will there be a formal redirect as WAID suggested? I think that's the best course of action. My article was marked for deletion within a second. Surely, there are much more important places to invest energy here then to watch new pages like a hawk and swoop down within a second of their creation. Seems to discourage what is supposed to be encouraged around here... Jim Steele (talk) 12:01, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, no amount of changes to the policy page will stop such users. If someone is determined to read the criteria wrong, they will not be swayed by it. The best way to educate them is to tell those users about WP:BITE and the effect their tagging has on new users, then ask them to reconsider their approach based on current consensus. Regards SoWhy 15:31, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, but no: If this page formally instructs patrollers to give editors a chance, then more admins will feel empowered to (individually, considering all the facts and circumstances) warn and, if necessary, block the small number of patrollers who continue to disrupt the encyclopedia by routinely defying the long-standing and widespread community consensus. Also, most of the 'problem' editors have been educated about the consequences, but they seem to think that they are too special to follow the community's directions. This is, in some instances, more like deliberate defiance with a touch of "who's going to make me?!" than mere thoughtlessness.
- I think that a section on this page that runs something like this might be appropriate:
- Don't rush to pass judgment
- The "speedy" in speedy deletion is about how soon an article can be deleted after it has been identified as a candidate for deletion, not how soon after its initial creation editors should pass judgment on it. Please don't tag articles for speedy deletion or other forms of cleanup within seconds, or even minutes, of their creation. Editors are not required to produce a perfect stub on the first draft. Tagging articles for speedy deletion within minutes of the page's initial creation is normally considered disruptive behavior, because it creates edit conflicts for pages that are being actively edited, discourages article creation, seems unfriendly to new and inexperienced editors, and seems aggressive to experienced editors. Too-hasty tagging also results in more errors by new page patrollers.
- Under normal circumstances, new pages should not be tagged for speedy deletion within at least the first 10-15 minutes of their creation, especially for inadequate content. Articles on plausible topics that tagged very early in their existence can be tagged with {{Hasty}}.
- New page patrollers with a pattern of defying the community consensus can be warned and, if the anti-consensus and disruptive behavior continues, blocked by any admin.
- I think this covers the content (rule [with plenty of wiggle room], explanation of why we have this rule, possible sanction [also with plenty of room for admin judgment]), but perhaps someone else will have a better idea about how to phrase it. Also, I think that the creation of a {{uw-hasty}} warning might be appropriate. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- WP:BITE does instruct people not to bite newbies, still some people will do so. I don't argue against adding something to the policy page to emphasize that WP:BITE applies to tagging as well.
- As for the text of a new section, I think we should keep it short and precise since WP:BITE covers most of that as well. I'd suggest the following:
Avoid hasty tagging
See also: Wikipedia:Please do not bite the newcomers.
The "speedy" part in "speedy deletion" refers to the fact that this process allows administrators to delete pages without having to wait for a certain time. It does not mean that deletion has to be requested as fast as possible. In the spirit of welcoming new users, new page patrollers should not tag new pages for speedy deletion (or with maintenance templates) within the first few minutes of their existence, unless deletion is required immediately (e.g. attack pages or copyright violations). Pages tagged this way can be marked with {{hasty}} and patrollers doing such taggings can be informed using the {{uw-hasty}} template.- I don't think this policy needs to include a threat for those who exhibit a pattern of hasty tagging since we can simply say that doing so violates WP:BITE and violating WP:BITE should always be sanctioned equally and thus the sanctions should be centralized.
- As for warning, I think a {{uw-hasty}} template is a good idea, you should create one but keep it short like the other templates (e.g. {{uw-bite}}). Regards SoWhy 17:58, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- (@SoWhy) I agree with you that we cannot stop it (barring a technical solution; discussed, but none proposed have been found feasible) but we cannot make a dent in it keeping it hidden in archived discussions and we can do much by memorializing the consensus in policy. With the anchor of pointing to the policy which now incorporates the hidden-from-view consensus, it will become known and part of "CSD mores" and happen less frequently. Just citing to biting on taggers' talk pages has done nothing (I've tried). Actually announcing things in policy has effects that no amount of assertion that "there is consensus" can. This is especially true here where the consensus on this may go against newpage patrollers' sense that "speedy" means rapidity.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 18:37, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- (@WhatamIdoing) Initial thoughts on any proposed section is that it's critical that we include the instruction that newpages patroller coming across a possible A1/A3 moments after creation and who refrain from marking it as empty/lacking context because the time is not yet ripe, also not mark the page as patrolled. What we don't want is those patrolling from the front end of newpages allowing A1/A3s to escape later review.
- I just looked at your proposed language, which seems geared to all the criteria. I don't know if this is just a drafting oversight but the issue of hasty tagging has been discussed at length in relation to A1/A3 specifically, which is what past consensus speaks to (I do not and would not support this about any of the other criteria). I would propose a much simpler version, where instead of making a separate section on the page, we simply append to the existing A1 and A3 a note stating the consensus and a bare minimum on the issue. Proposed language:
Consensus has developed that articles should not be tagged for deletion under this criterion moments after creation as the creator may be actively working on the content; a minimum of fifteen minutes should be allowed before this criterion is applied.
--Fuhghettaboutit (talk)- Either of these suggested approaches work for me. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:22, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
I would support the above proposal (though as a New page patroller, I have certainly broken the above rule a few times). Maybe, if possible, you could change the tag so that It is a little less bitey, but could still be applied right away. For instance, when an article comes in with content such as "its a really great place to hang out with your friends" it would be useful to not have to wait 15 (I would suggest lowering to 10 to prevent things falling through the cracks) minutes to tag the article, during that time it could fall through the cracks, but instead put a very visible time stamp on the notice of the last edit, saying something like "An editor has tagged this article as lacking sufficient context to identify the subject of the article, and if it is not improved in the next 15 minutes, will be listed for speedy deletion per CSD A1." If we don't change the CSD tag or language, this could easily be a separate tag used to put articles into a temporary "holding pen" for reviewing in the future. It certainly should not be applied to all criteria, but certainly A1, A3, and possibly A7. I support the creation and use of uw-speedy per Ignorantia juris may excuse. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 01:44, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- A way to tag immediately but have the tag not propagate to the category for a set length of time would be much preferable but has been discussed before and a way of implementing that has never been found.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 02:01, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- While I think I realized that that was probably not feasible as I wrote my comment, I think a "holding pen" could work. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 02:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Deleting isn't the problem that I'm trying to address. The instant tagging is, itself, the problem. Tagging a perfectly plausible article because the very first draft only contains one sentence, and the tagger is too far outside his own knowledge to recognize the subject, and apparently too dim to think that the editor might be expanding it and adding sources at this very second, is disruptive and bitey.
- I hope and believe that our admins are wise enough not to delete something plausible just because it's been tagged. I am, sadly, not able to make the same claim for a small handful of very active new page patrollers. WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:58, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- While I think I realized that that was probably not feasible as I wrote my comment, I think a "holding pen" could work. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 02:06, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I will continue to oppose any mandatory requirements to wait a certain length of time before tagging and/or deleting articles under speedy deletion criteria. There are always some articles (like the "its a really great place to hang out with your friends" example above) which are deletable straight away, but placing a delay before these appear in the deletion category (or whatever) gives the creators the chance to remove the speedy tag, getting them in under the radar.
- I am happy to support whatever "should", "recommended", "good idea", "guideline", "strongly recommended", etc. guidelines are proposed, but not hard or inflexible requirements. I maintain that the issues described above are due to editors being overzealous, not rules and guidelines being wrong. Bringing in more guidelines will just put off or distract the valuable NPP team. Stifle (talk) 09:53, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I also support editors using their best judgment, and I don't really want anyone hassled over occasional instances.
- I do, however, want to somewhat change the current pattern of behavior—from "Most of my CSD nominations today were tagged within three minutes of the page's creation" to "For most of my CSD nominations, there had been no activity for the last 15 minutes, so I thought that the original editor might have quit working on it." WhatamIdoing (talk) 16:58, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I entirely agree with Stifle, some articles ought to be deleted as soon as possible (personal attacks and copyright violations, basically, but hoaxes too, blatant vandalism and so on). On the contrary, articles should not be tagged per A1, A3, G2 and perhaps A7 too soon. But I'd rather leave it to the single editor's common sense, with, clearly, the possibility for an admin to adjust that editor's clue level. Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 17:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- We have ample evidence that relying on "the single editor's common sense" isn't working.
- The admins seem to want a clear, direct, unambiguous "permission" to adjust these disruptive editors' clue levels. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:16, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I entirely agree with Stifle, some articles ought to be deleted as soon as possible (personal attacks and copyright violations, basically, but hoaxes too, blatant vandalism and so on). On the contrary, articles should not be tagged per A1, A3, G2 and perhaps A7 too soon. But I'd rather leave it to the single editor's common sense, with, clearly, the possibility for an admin to adjust that editor's clue level. Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 17:33, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I know that; what I meant is that we already have a policy that suggests not to tag too hastily certain articles; I think we do not need a new set of rules, mandating how long to wait.
- Any admin can rebuke editors who habitually tag articles too hastily and if they do not learn after being warned, they can be sanctioned. I don't think admins really need an explicit permission to do this: all disruptive actions can be sanctioned... Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 20:36, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- Where is that policy reflected on this page? (Yes, it's part of the "real" policy, but surely we can write down our real policies in plain language?)
- I didn't say that they need explicit permission; I said that they seem to want it. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- This policy is not referred to on this page, but there is a strong suggestion not to do it (please consider not tagging new articles for CSD:A1 and CSD:A3 within moments of creation, as not all users will place all their information in their first revision) at the very beginning of Special:NewPages and [[Wikipedia:New pages patrol#Patrolling new pages (Special:Newpages logs new pages as they are created. It is advisable to patrol new pages from the bottom of the first page of the log. This should give the creating editor enough time to improve a new page before a patroller attends to it, particularly if the patroller tags the page for speedy deletion. Tagging anything other than attack pages or complete nonsense a minute after creation is not constructive and only serves to annoy the page author.).
- But I agree: it would be useful to add a mention of this policy here too. Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 11:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
(@ all) The text at the top of newpages has had no discernible effect. Telling people on their talk pages has done nothing I've seen. The issue needs to be recognized in the policy page to get any legs, or we need to come up with a mechanical fix (and I'm not sure why it's not possible with all the tech talent we have; prod already has a device to say an article is not yet ready for deletion, which automatically changes at a set time; can that be modified and included in new db-a1/db-a3 templates?) I am ambivalent and want to be careful about any fix because I am just as concerned with not hampering newpages patrollers, and having articles deleted that should be deleted, as I am with fixing the "hasty issue", and I do not want to sacrifice one at the expense of the other. On that note, I am alarmed by the fix offered below. There should not be a lag with respect to all pages and especially with regard to attack pages and copyright violations, which concern to me trumps by a mile anything that the fix solves. That is dangerous. Until we come up with a targeted fix that doesn't rope in what it should not, I can't see the problem in adding language to the policy page about the consensus. The concern above about it being mandatory, well the language I suggested is not, but I can see people running with it as impliedly mandatory, so let's say expressly that it's not, but get the information out there in a way that may actually have an effect. New suggested language to be appended to A1/A3: Consensus has developed that in most cases articles should not be tagged for deletion under this criterion moments after creation as the creator may be actively working on the content; though there is no set time requirement, a ten minute delay before tagging under this criterion is suggested as good practice.
--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:27, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have just created {{uw-hasty}}.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:38, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have added some language to WP:NPP per this discussion, including uw-hasty. I also made a very minor typo fix in the template. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 02:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- I think that the proposed 'footnote' is a good approach. Shall we do that (applying only to A1/A3)? WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:24, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have added some language to WP:NPP per this discussion, including uw-hasty. I also made a very minor typo fix in the template. --Fiftytwo thirty (talk) 02:33, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- I have just created {{uw-hasty}}.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:38, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Structural fixes
Just a note to say that User:TheJosh has very kindly agreed to modify his NPP script to provide an automatic five-minute delay. I believe that this sort of structural change, which makes it easy to automatically do the right thing, is extremely valuable. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:29, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- I'm quite opposed to it, as said earlier. Salvio ( Let's talk 'bout it!) 11:33, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Me too. Many pages need deleting (and even oversighting) ASAP. Every delay increases the chance of the page being picked up by Google and cached for a long time (not to mention being mirrored elsewhere, but that usually takes longer). While we now have a problem with too hasty tagging of some articles, an institutionalised and/or sanctionable delay before new page patrolling is creating different and potentially worse problems. Fram (talk) 11:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- The idea that there be some sort of time delay on CSD has been suggested and rejected numerous times in the past. As has already been stated, there are types of articles that actually do need to be deleted as soon as possible, such as attack pages and copyright violations. If you want to create a template to send to over-eager taggers, that's fine, but don't technically restrict users from tagging new articles. I would add that this time delay at NPP would have no effect whatsoever on users who do it "old school" and just look at recent changes without using any "patrol" construct. Beeblebrox (talk) 17:12, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Me too. Many pages need deleting (and even oversighting) ASAP. Every delay increases the chance of the page being picked up by Google and cached for a long time (not to mention being mirrored elsewhere, but that usually takes longer). While we now have a problem with too hasty tagging of some articles, an institutionalised and/or sanctionable delay before new page patrolling is creating different and potentially worse problems. Fram (talk) 11:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- Strong oppose any automatic lag application to all criteria. This should be specific to A1/A3 or not done at all. Expanded commentary on this in the section above.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 23:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
- While I share WhatamIdoing's concerns about tagging articles too quickly, I'm not crazy about structurally altering such a ubiquitous tool for New Page Patrollers without consensus, or even alerting them to the change. Of course, TheJosh is entitled to alter his script, but I have decided to use the older version without the delay, and anyone else who doesn't want the delay should do the same. My one can be found at User:Lear's Fool/Scripts/NewPagePatrol.js. If you want to use it, remember to add a backslash before the apostrophy in my username:
importScript('User:Lear\'s Fool/Scripts/NewPagePatrol.js');
. -- Lear's Fool (talk | contribs) 01:25, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- While I share WhatamIdoing's concerns about tagging articles too quickly, I'm not crazy about structurally altering such a ubiquitous tool for New Page Patrollers without consensus, or even alerting them to the change. Of course, TheJosh is entitled to alter his script, but I have decided to use the older version without the delay, and anyone else who doesn't want the delay should do the same. My one can be found at User:Lear's Fool/Scripts/NewPagePatrol.js. If you want to use it, remember to add a backslash before the apostrophy in my username:
Inconsistency: CSD vs. "rewrite" and sometimes "new title"
I'm starting to see more of the CSD picture, and I'm still convinced that A11 and A12 from above need to be implemented. What's more troubling, however, is that there is a huge inconsistency about speedy deletes versus "rewrite" and/or "give it a new title". Some examples:
- Above, it was stated that Social netvetting was declared to be speedily deletable in that thread, but with my edits and a new title it will be fine. This means that the article, as it was started, was indeed deletable. It was only "fine" when it wasn't the same article.
- Quite frequently, articles are deleted as advertising. In reality, these same articles could be rewritten to be non-POV and encyclopedic. But arguments are rare when these are deleted.
- A sample article, MyAbcCompany, with only the text www.MyAbcComany.com, is almost always speedily deleted as advertising or no-context. But what if that company is notable? Why doesn't someone give it appropriate edits and it will be fine?
- That same sample MyAbcComany article, with a number of sections that read as pure advertising and promotion, is again almost always speedily deleted as advertising. But why doesn't someone just give it appropriate edits to be fine?
- My example for companies/advertising is MICROS Systems, which I created several years ago. MICROS is quite possibly the most notable POS system in the world, yet it was speedily deleted at least twice as I was getting it started.
Now my point to all of the above is that it seems we're willing to delete surely notable companies, or at least those who have a chance if rewritten, but you're willing to keep the pure "A11s and A12s" around to rewrite them? This makes no sense, and is highly inconsistent.
I recently mentioned the horrible Ecuador buses article, which was pure OR, written in second-person and had a conclusion section. I AFD'd it, where someone saw it and completely rewrote the now-stubbed content. Others in the AFD suggested (as I had already done on this page) that the title be changed. So what we have here is a completely different article with a new title. That doesn't mean the article was "kept"; it is completely different.
So what I'm getting at here is that all the "A" reasons (with the exception of A10, duplicates which really seems like a "G" reason anyway) seem highly subjective as to how to handle them. Why delete someone's new band page if there's a chance that there is one single review out there that gives a little bit of notability? Why delete an article for "no content" reasons if someone could do the research and information to make the title relevant?
Bottom line: all the "A" reasons are pretty subjective. Anything could be rewritten, so why is anything speedily deleted based on "A" reasons? The maintenance of these articles is incredibly inconsistent. — Timneu22 · talk 13:21, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Speedy deletion is meant to be a short cut to avoid overloading the "real" deletion process in extreme cases where most editors agree that particular strict criteria apply. I think what you're seeing is that people are more likely to agree that the criteria apply to an obviously-promotional article about a company, clearly written by someone close to it, and less likely to agree that the criteria apply in the case of a labour-of-love essay about some obscure 14th century academic topic, even if there is the same lack of obvious notability for both. The "benefit of the doubt" is enough to avoid speedy deletion in many cases, and we're all less inclined to grant that when the motivations of the article creator are obviously commercial and possibly bad-faith. I don't think that's a problem, really. Thparkth (talk) 02:07, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Modify F5?
I've never understood the point of waiting seven days for rescaled nonfree images. Would it be reasonable to change criterion F5 to specify that all old versions of all images in Category:Rescaled fairuse images are subject to deletion? Nyttend (talk) 16:39, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- The point is, iirc, that sometimes people scale them too small, thus rendering them unusable for any encyclopedic purposes and people should be able to revert this when it happens. Hence the 7 day period to allow everyone interested to review the change before it's made final. I don't think we should change F5 in this way, waiting this period does not really make it inefficient, does it? Regards SoWhy 18:02, 24 May 2010 (UTC)
- Actually, a large number of images in that category should have been deleted ages ago; earlier today I deleted one that was tagged for deletion in 2008! The majority of images that I found in that category were tagged well more than seven days ago, so I ended up deleting many images that weren't in the tagged-for-more-than-a-week category. Nyttend (talk) 03:18, 25 May 2010 (UTC)
- I suspect few apart from the deleting admin actually check it out as this is not very exciting work. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 10:51, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
IPUser talkpage deletion .. again
I know we have been through this before, but it comes up over and over. I thought we had agreed in older discussions, that user talkpages of IP Users known to have been engaging in long term vandalism, or other forms of systematic vandalism (POV pushing, spam, &c.) should never be deleted. Some related discussions.
- Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_36#Misuse_of_G6_to_delete_user_talk_pages
- Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_33#User_talk_pages_of_IPs
- Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_33#U4 (U4 is now deleted; see also following discussion!)
- Wikipedia_talk:Criteria_for_speedy_deletion/Archive_33#Problems_with_the_the_proposed_U4 (gives some examples of where things go wrong)
At the moment, there is not a direct CSD for that, though they can be deleted under routine housekeeping, deleting of blank pages or pages without meaningful content. So now the sequence comes up again, one user sees an 'ancient' user talkpage which does not contain a lot of useful information anymore, so blanks it, and a second one deletes it as blanked. And we are again at the point that (sometimes important!) tracks are deleted.
In fact, I now saw that a talkpage of an IP with a long track of vandalism, which is actively blocked at the moment (block of a year!), was blanked 3 months after being blocked, and some time later the talkpage was deleted.
In short, although by far the most of these deletions are indeed uncontroversial, some are not, and hence, they can not be deleted under any form of CSD .. I again argue that deletion of user talkpages (even of IPs) should be done only very, very carefully under a CSD criterium, and certainly not semi-automated. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:41, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Note: By far the most of the deletions that triggered my comments here, were absolutely fine, it is maybe just 1% or even less of those deletions, which are a problem. But those can be quite a problem to track for those working in the field of fighting those long-term vandals. --Dirk Beetstra T C 08:52, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Although I ended up here in a different way, to get a quick feeling of them, see deleted user talk pages which have received XLinkBot warnings. From the top 50 I found already two of editors who are actively blocked, still the pages have been deleted. --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
OK, just to give an example. Without using admin tools, can we have quick consideration whether the editors who have abused:
- nutmeg.ws: Linksearch en (insource) - meta - de - fr - simple - wikt:en - wikt:fr • Spamcheck • MER-C X-wiki • gs • Reports: Links on en - COIBot - COIBot-Local • Discussions: tracked - advanced - RSN • COIBot-Link, Local, & XWiki Reports - Wikipedia: en - fr - de • Google: search • meta • Domain: domaintools • AboutUs.com
have actually been warned enough that their blatant spamming would warrant blacklisting? --Dirk Beetstra T C 09:57, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
- There seems to be no ambiguity about this: it is agreed that user talk pages are not deleted except under exceptional circumstances. this is indicated, for example, at WP:DELTALK, and I am sure I have seen a much more strongly worded version of the same idea, though I don't remember where. It is important that we have record of what has been posted on user talk pages for future reference, and this is even more important with IP users than with registered users, as we do not indef-block IPs. If, as you say, administrators are deleting these pages "as blanked", then that is puzzling: as far as i know there is no provision for deleting a page just because it is blanked except for "author blanked" (CSD G7), and that does not apply here, as the criterion specifically says "a page other than a userspace page or category page". JamesBWatson (talk) 10:47, 27 May 2010 (UTC)