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RFC/Move Request
There is a move request at Talk:China that could use the opinions of editors involved with Wikipedia naming issues and not invested in intra-China politics. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)
Abbreviations as article titles
Could I get people's advice on this issue, a move request I've made to downcase an item that was upcased, apparently just because the abbreviation is upcased. The latter goes against MoS and the rulings of major external style guides, even though it's done as a habit by some in the telecom industry (or should I write the Telecom industry?). But it's not the downcasing I'm asking advice about—that seems obvious, except for the opinion of one editor who seems to want to upcase just about everything, and inconsistently in many instances; no, it's whether "Asymetrical digital subscriber line" should be rendered just as "ADSL" in the actual article title, rather than just a redirect. The possibility has been raised by User:LtPowers. I'm cautious about using the abbreviation only in the title, although I concede that it's much more recognisable by the public than the expanded version. Tony (talk) 02:40, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Military titles
Articles about military titles with more than one word, such as Lieutenant Colonel, Major General, Wing Commander, etc. (its a long list!), do not follow the general rules outlined in this article and should have a specific exception mentioned so we can avoid confusion in the future. Can we add a section to this article for military titles to reflect the current consensus for capitalizing all the words in the title? See this Talk:Able_Seaman_(rank)#Requested_move discussion for a recent example; more comprehensively Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Military_history/Archive_68#Rank_articles:_capitalization_of_title here. Thank you! Kirk (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- Please see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Military terms. The policy fully supports MoS, and deffer to the MoS for the specifics in most cases - it is about the principles of article naming, not the implementation of article naming. Hence there is no need for this overly specific clarification. See also WP:MILMOS for other military related conventions.--Cerejota (talk) 05:29, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand your logic - I'm arguing there should be specific guidance on this subject in the Article title section because editors are confused and frequent edit wars happen regarding the capitalization of these article titles, so there is a obviously a need for a specific clarification. If not here then where? Kirk (talk) 13:37, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am saying that this policy is not the one that handles military ranks, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Military terms does. This policy says (at Wikipedia:Article_titles#Explicit_conventions): Wikipedia has many naming conventions relating to specific subject domains (as listed in the box at the top of this page). Sometimes these recommend the use of titles that are not strictly the common name (as in the case of the conventions for flora and medicine). This practice of using specialized names is often controversial, and should not be adopted unless it produces clear benefits outweighing the use of common names; when it is, the article titles adopted should follow a neutral and common convention specific to that subject domain, and otherwise adhere to the general principles for titling articles on Wikipedia. In other words, the policy already addresses the point you are making. The problem with including this specific one in here, is that then we would have to include all the specific ones in here, and there are literally dozens of such naming conventions, which would make this page huge. The frequent edit wars should be stopped by simply pointing out the appropiate naming convention, and pointing out that this policy supports this convention. I am rewording the paragraph and including a wikilink so this is made obvious. --Cerejota (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- The naming convention at work is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization) which specifically says "proper nouns" are exempt of the "Only first letter cap" criteria. Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Military terms says that ranks are proper nouns unless used generically. The focus of the discussion at Able Seaman is if the article is about the proper noun, or if it is about the generic term. Capitalization, in that sense, is not trivial. --Cerejota (talk) 16:22, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am saying that this policy is not the one that handles military ranks, Wikipedia:Manual of Style (capital letters)#Military terms does. This policy says (at Wikipedia:Article_titles#Explicit_conventions): Wikipedia has many naming conventions relating to specific subject domains (as listed in the box at the top of this page). Sometimes these recommend the use of titles that are not strictly the common name (as in the case of the conventions for flora and medicine). This practice of using specialized names is often controversial, and should not be adopted unless it produces clear benefits outweighing the use of common names; when it is, the article titles adopted should follow a neutral and common convention specific to that subject domain, and otherwise adhere to the general principles for titling articles on Wikipedia. In other words, the policy already addresses the point you are making. The problem with including this specific one in here, is that then we would have to include all the specific ones in here, and there are literally dozens of such naming conventions, which would make this page huge. The frequent edit wars should be stopped by simply pointing out the appropiate naming convention, and pointing out that this policy supports this convention. I am rewording the paragraph and including a wikilink so this is made obvious. --Cerejota (talk) 16:16, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't understand your logic - I'm arguing there should be specific guidance on this subject in the Article title section because editors are confused and frequent edit wars happen regarding the capitalization of these article titles, so there is a obviously a need for a specific clarification. If not here then where? Kirk (talk) 13:37, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Giving it some thought, maybe what is need is a discussion on creating and raising to guideline the Wikipedia:Naming conventions (military ranks). I am raising this at MILHIST.--Cerejota (talk) 17:32, 16 September 2011 (UTC)
Article specificity
Did I do the right thing by moving Financial Management Standard to Financial Management Standard (Queensland)? I'm finding a lot of articles with very generic titles that turn out to be non-generic and specific. Tony (talk) 01:37, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Is there are need to scope the article in the title? Your suggestion would imply that every piece of legislation needs to be pre-emptively disambiguated, but we do not normally do that. Instead for Australia we add a year to the name of the legislation (see List of Acts of Parliament of Australia, and I presume that we should do the same thing for acts of the Parliament of Queensland as well. In which case shouldn't the name be "Financial Management Standard 1997"? -- PBS (talk) 13:41, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Seems to me that the article with the title Financial Management Standard should be a short main article to tell the reader what a "Financial Management Standard" actually is... something fairly generic that could apply to any location. Then we should have a series of disambiguated sub-articles on the specific standards are applicable to specific locations (Financial Management Standard (New South Wales), Financial Management Standard (Queensland), Financial Management Standard (Moose Crossing, Saskatchewan), or what ever.) Blueboar (talk) 14:03, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Can't do that because the definition can be unique to a particular act even if they share a name, and your suggestion would lead to 1,000 of extra pages (think how many acts are passed into law each year by the US federal government alone). It makes more sense to list them by year and if there more than one such act over time, then create a disambiguation page in the usual way (at the moment as there is no other act we know of with the same name as the Queensland act there is no need for a dab page). If two or more legislative bodies create legislation with the same name in the same year, then then create a dab page for that legislation and year with for example Financial Management Standard 1997 (Queensland) Financial Management Standard 1997 (United Kingdom), as per our usual way of handling disambiguation. -- PBS (talk) 14:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Right. This is all fairly academic. First, is there any evidence beyond a hunch that there are other entities named "Financial Management Standard"? Second, if there are other entities with that exact name, are there articles for the other entities (or are you willing to create them)? If not, the article should be located at that title with no further disambiguation. Full stop. If there is some existing article that might address the generic topic, that could be linked either in a hatnote, if there is potential for confusion, or listed in a see also section. If there are other ambiguous entities and articles exist for them, then we can consider what is the most appropriate disambiguation method. Until then, we're counting angels dancing on a pinhead. older ≠ wiser 14:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- PBS has just moved it back to the generic. I think every reader will find it odd to learn in the opening sentence that it's not about financial management standards generically, but about a highly specific financial standard. How close does WP:TITLE get to advising about this. I just wonder why the first such article should grab the broad, generic term, and leave subsequent article creators with a quandary: at the very least, it will have to be changed later, or we'll have to put up with inconsistency ("Financial Management Standard" ... oh, it's for Queenland, huh; but "Financial Management Standard (Scotland)"). The continuing, but now low-level move request at Talk:Chief Financial Officer partly involves the same issue. It's definitely not a generic article, but applies to a position in UK and related railway companies. Do we then have to revisit it when someone does want to create a generic article on the roles, status, history, of chief financial officers, whether employed in power stations, by NASA, or ferry companies? Tony (talk) 01:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
PS, and why do we have Institute of Directors (where? Ah, the UK) and Chartered Secretaries (Hong Kong)? It's a mess, and I believe we need to develop better advice for editors. Tony (talk) 02:04, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- If there are subsequent articles that require disambiguation, the first article should be retitled unless there are indications that it is the primary topic. That is what should happen. Unfortunately this sometimes causes more dissension than one would think. For example, many English place names occupied the undisambiguated title even though they might be entirely unremarkable places and there was often significant resistance to moving them to a disambiguated name because it was felt all the other places were derivative of the English place. But in this case, I'd expect the general concept, if there is such a thing, to be at Financial management standards. A fully capitalized title is a proper noun and if there is in fact only one article on such an entity, then there is nothing to disambiguate. older ≠ wiser 02:17, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- PBS has just moved it back to the generic. I think every reader will find it odd to learn in the opening sentence that it's not about financial management standards generically, but about a highly specific financial standard. How close does WP:TITLE get to advising about this. I just wonder why the first such article should grab the broad, generic term, and leave subsequent article creators with a quandary: at the very least, it will have to be changed later, or we'll have to put up with inconsistency ("Financial Management Standard" ... oh, it's for Queenland, huh; but "Financial Management Standard (Scotland)"). The continuing, but now low-level move request at Talk:Chief Financial Officer partly involves the same issue. It's definitely not a generic article, but applies to a position in UK and related railway companies. Do we then have to revisit it when someone does want to create a generic article on the roles, status, history, of chief financial officers, whether employed in power stations, by NASA, or ferry companies? Tony (talk) 01:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Right. This is all fairly academic. First, is there any evidence beyond a hunch that there are other entities named "Financial Management Standard"? Second, if there are other entities with that exact name, are there articles for the other entities (or are you willing to create them)? If not, the article should be located at that title with no further disambiguation. Full stop. If there is some existing article that might address the generic topic, that could be linked either in a hatnote, if there is potential for confusion, or listed in a see also section. If there are other ambiguous entities and articles exist for them, then we can consider what is the most appropriate disambiguation method. Until then, we're counting angels dancing on a pinhead. older ≠ wiser 14:29, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Can't do that because the definition can be unique to a particular act even if they share a name, and your suggestion would lead to 1,000 of extra pages (think how many acts are passed into law each year by the US federal government alone). It makes more sense to list them by year and if there more than one such act over time, then create a disambiguation page in the usual way (at the moment as there is no other act we know of with the same name as the Queensland act there is no need for a dab page). If two or more legislative bodies create legislation with the same name in the same year, then then create a dab page for that legislation and year with for example Financial Management Standard 1997 (Queensland) Financial Management Standard 1997 (United Kingdom), as per our usual way of handling disambiguation. -- PBS (talk) 14:19, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- Seems to me that the article with the title Financial Management Standard should be a short main article to tell the reader what a "Financial Management Standard" actually is... something fairly generic that could apply to any location. Then we should have a series of disambiguated sub-articles on the specific standards are applicable to specific locations (Financial Management Standard (New South Wales), Financial Management Standard (Queensland), Financial Management Standard (Moose Crossing, Saskatchewan), or what ever.) Blueboar (talk) 14:03, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- So, forgive me, I haven't followed this policy for as long as I have MoS. wp:title doesn't seem to talk about this scenario; do editors know that it's expected when they create articles? Tony (talk) 10:21, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- I can't speak for other editors. I think WP:Disambiguation has fairly widespread acceptance. older ≠ wiser 10:31, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
primary topic
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I changed this statement:
If the subject of an article is the primary topic (or only topic) for its common title, as reflected in reliable sources, then the article can take that title without modification.
to this:
If the subject of an article is the primary (or only) topic to which a name refers, then that name can be the title of that article without modification.
This was reverted by User:Cerejota on the grounds that it "might be more concise, but also says something different".
Okay, it might say something slightly different (a bit more), but doesn't it accurately reflect reality? I mean, does anyone challenge the veracity of the revised/concise (second above) statement in terms of how articles are actually titled?
Also, I suggest the original (current, first above) wording is misleading. That is, an article may use a name for its title if the article's subject is the primary use even if the name is not the topic's "common title , (as reflected in reliable sources)". Almost any article for which natural disambiguation is used to give it a unique title has a title for which the primary topic is the article's topic, but the title is not the topic's "common title" (the "common title" is not available which is why natural disambiguation is used). --Born2cycle (talk) 20:01, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- You eliminate the reference to reliable sources and comonality, which is central to the clause. We do not pull titles out of thin air. You completely changed the meaning of the clause. Yes the English on "only topic" needing fixing, but you hid a significant change in policy behind a wording fix. Policy can change, but this seems to me to be the kind of change that requires discussion.--Cerejota (talk) 22:52, 17 September 2011 (UTC)
- No change in policy was intended. But I see your point, though I don't agree that aspect of usage and policy needs to be repeated here (it's covered thoroughly elsewhere). My concern is with the use of the term "common title" in the original/current wording because that incorrectly implies "most common name". Why that's inaccurate (in terms of usage as well as policy) is explained above.
Anyway, to address your concern, how about this?
- No change in policy was intended. But I see your point, though I don't agree that aspect of usage and policy needs to be repeated here (it's covered thoroughly elsewhere). My concern is with the use of the term "common title" in the original/current wording because that incorrectly implies "most common name". Why that's inaccurate (in terms of usage as well as policy) is explained above.
If the subject of an article is the primary (or only) topic to which a recognized name (as reflected in reliable sources) refers, then that name can be the title of that article without modification.
- Either that addresses your concern (as well as mine), or I'm still missing your point. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Sometimes, rarely, BRD works as it should. This is such a case apparently, so thanks ;) Here is the thing, I am not clear that "most common name" is not what is implied, as per WP:COMMONNAME. Redundancy in policy is often needed because of short-cutting.--Cerejota (talk) 04:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think BRD is great - it embodies many fundamental aspects of WP, including AGF. I already explained how policy would be contradicted if indeed "most common name" is implied... every article with a title created through natural disambiguation, like Chevrolet Corvette, would be in conflict here. Is "Chevrolet Corvette" the most common name for the topic of that article? No. But the topic of that article is the only topic to which "Chevrolet Corvette" refers.
- More importantly, let's not forget the reference to primary topic here, which clearly implies common usage in reliable sources:
- Sometimes, rarely, BRD works as it should. This is such a case apparently, so thanks ;) Here is the thing, I am not clear that "most common name" is not what is implied, as per WP:COMMONNAME. Redundancy in policy is often needed because of short-cutting.--Cerejota (talk) 04:58, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Either that addresses your concern (as well as mine), or I'm still missing your point. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:34, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- A topic is primary for a term with respect to usage if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other single topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term.
- A topic is primary for a term with respect to long-term significance if it has substantially greater enduring notability and educational value than any other topic associated with that term.
- So let's say this even more succinctly then I did originally:
If the subject of an article is the primary (or only) topic to which a term refers, then that term can be the title of that article without modification.
- Now, given that we're talking about a term for which the topic in question is either the primary topic, or is the only topic to which the term refers, is there any policy or convention which might be violated if that term is used as the title of the article about that topic? In other words, putting aside the differences with the original/current wording, do you have any specific policy-based objection to this proposed wording? If so, what is it? --Born2cycle (talk) 17:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Ok I think I narrowed down what activated spidey sense, how about this:
- Now, given that we're talking about a term for which the topic in question is either the primary topic, or is the only topic to which the term refers, is there any policy or convention which might be violated if that term is used as the title of the article about that topic? In other words, putting aside the differences with the original/current wording, do you have any specific policy-based objection to this proposed wording? If so, what is it? --Born2cycle (talk) 17:00, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
If the subject of an article is the primary (or only) topic to which a term refers, then that term can be the title of that article without modification, provided it follows all other applicable title policies.
- I am just into wikilawyer proofing shortcut policy, feel me?--Cerejota (talk) 22:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
- Not as concise as it could be ideally, I think, and you didn't answer my question. Anyway, I'm with you, believe me. Not trying to introduce any loopholes. But I suggest we take context into account, which is disambiguation and precision, and that the point of this statement is to make clear that neither additional precision nor any other modification is required when the article subject is the primary topic for the article in question. Does putting that first help? And how about if we state it in terms of existing titles?
- I am just into wikilawyer proofing shortcut policy, feel me?--Cerejota (talk) 22:38, 18 September 2011 (UTC)
No additional modification should be added to an article's title if the subject of that article is the primary (or only) topic to which that title refers.
- Now, that's just consistent with the rest of WP:PRECISION. Again, can you think of any example to which this would apply but which would be in conflict with some other policy? Unless you can, I suggest the "provided it follows all other applicable title policies" qualification is superfluous. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC) --Tightened up. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Oh, things like WP:POVTITLE, WP:COMMONNAME could be violated by using a precise term. Again, I think there is an unfortunate tendency to isolate policy sections, and I like language to make clear. I cannot provide specific examples of this specific policy section being misused, but in general this is a problem that doesn't only happen with WP:AT. For example, WP:NOTNEWSPAPER gets thrown around ignoring all other policies.--Cerejota (talk) 00:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- No one else is chiming in, you're okay with the version with the qualification, I believe that's an improvement, so let's go with that (except I took out the "title" at the end so it says, "...provided it follows all other applicable
titlepolicies." Done --Born2cycle (talk) 03:20, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- No one else is chiming in, you're okay with the version with the qualification, I believe that's an improvement, so let's go with that (except I took out the "title" at the end so it says, "...provided it follows all other applicable
- Oh, things like WP:POVTITLE, WP:COMMONNAME could be violated by using a precise term. Again, I think there is an unfortunate tendency to isolate policy sections, and I like language to make clear. I cannot provide specific examples of this specific policy section being misused, but in general this is a problem that doesn't only happen with WP:AT. For example, WP:NOTNEWSPAPER gets thrown around ignoring all other policies.--Cerejota (talk) 00:26, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
- Now, that's just consistent with the rest of WP:PRECISION. Again, can you think of any example to which this would apply but which would be in conflict with some other policy? Unless you can, I suggest the "provided it follows all other applicable title policies" qualification is superfluous. --Born2cycle (talk) 23:36, 18 September 2011 (UTC) --Tightened up. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:08, 19 September 2011 (UTC)
RfC involving aspects of WP:Article titles and WP:NPOV#Naming
There is an RfC at Talk:Climatic_Research_Unit_email_controversy#Request_for_Comment_regarding_Name.2FTitle that is dealing with issues regarding WP:Article titles and WP:NPOV#Naming, specifically common names versus descriptive titles and how WP:NPOV applies in a non-neutral common name situation. All editors, especially disinterested ones, are welcome. Moogwrench (talk) 22:34, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
- Its a long discussion, and in the interest of full disclosure I'm a climate article editor fully behind the mainstream scientific view, but with edit history that I hope demonstrates an increasing understanding of NPOV. That said.... Moogwrench wants to rename the article to "Climategate", citing WP:POVTITLE. The discussion shows that the phrase is inherently biased as a matter of definition not mere opinion, major media can talk about the subject without using "climategate" so the term is unnecessary, and it was coined by partisans to an advocacy issue (Global warming) ([refs about crafting of term]). So the matter comes down to either:
- (A) the spirit of the NPOV law as numerous editors have argued every time someone tries this,
- (B) the consensus of the community to disregard the rules if they defeat our purpose here, or
- (C) in a wikilawyer hypertechnical question based on disqualifier #3 in WP:POVTITLE, is the matter a "still-active, contentious advocacy issue"? That depends how you care to slice and dice. People who embrace the inherently biased, unnecessary partisan-crafted phrase "climategate" will wish to carve out a subset of the issues, and then say there are no formal proceedings about them, and on that basis declare that "the contentious advocacy issue" is no longer "still active" so disqualifer #3 does not apply. Moogwrench took that very position [here].
Originally I erred by considering the issue to be related to the emails and work of certain researchers specifically, and I have shown that this certainly is an enduring issue in the public eye, regardless whether there are formal proceedings. While I still stand by my original view that this is all "still alive", as I write here I realize that disqualifier #3 deals with a "contentious advocacy issue". Upon reflection, I believe that is the issue Global warming in all its glory, and not just some sliced and diced subset. There's no need to rename the article in the inherently biased way some partisans would like to see. Note especially that the earliest champion of this phrase has spoken thus
If you want to know the truth about Climategate, definitely don’t use Wikipedia. “Climatic Research Unit e-mail controversy”, is its preferred, mealy-mouthed euphemism to describe the greatest scientific scandal of the modern age. Not that you’d ever guess it was a scandal from the accompanying article. It reads more like a damage-limitation press release put out by concerned friends and sympathisers of the lying, cheating, data-rigging scientists.
[[partisan James Delingpole source].
Since this comes up over and over and over, it should come as no surprise that [article title restriction has been proposed].
Thanks for your attention. Now you get to decide whether to apply the spirit of the law, or start slicing and dicing. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 16:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- And in the interests of balance, I would like to cite Jimbo Wales as to what he said last year regarding the issue (again, with all the usual caveats, Jimbo is just an editor, like anyone else, he has his own opinion, which is not policy, etc.:
"I think there's a pretty strong case to be made for "Climategate" as the name for the article, as it is clearly the most common name in the press for this. I think it fairly obvious why people don't want it called that - but that call is not up to Wikipedia. We must call it what it is called, and what it is called, is climategate. (This is not a decree, but my point is that it is pretty obvious that - contrary to the wild claims of coverup and so on - we do have a well-sourced article that is comprehensive and informative and fair... but with a pretty silly title that no one uses. The scandal here is clearly not the "hacking incident" - about which virtually nothing is known. The scandal is the content of the emails, which has proven to be deeply embarrassing (whether fairly or unfairly) to certain people.) The result of the silly title is that there is traction (unfairly) for claims that Wikipedia is suppressing something.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 03:26, 10 March 2010 (UTC)" (emphasis mine)
-User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_55#egregious_abuse_of_Wikipedia_in_nearly_all_climate_change_BLPs (diff)
- NAEG, like many editors, believes that using Climategate for the title would be an inimaginable breach of NPOV and essentially considers Wikipedia to be an important actor in the debate/controversy (hence citing Delingpole and also refering to the capacity of Wikipedia to "influence society"). Jimbo's message is that true NPOV means just going with what the sources use and reflecting, not advocating ("it's not our call", he says), what society calls things and writes about in its reliable sources.
- Like I said above, and in the RfC, I know Jimbo is an editor, just like you and me, but he is also the founder of Wikipedia, an administrator, and I believe has a pretty firm grasp on the policies of the project and its overall vision. I am inclined, therefore, to agree with him. And in any event, you can hardly say that he is a "slicer and dicer" of Wikipedia policy, a proponent of a violation of the spirit of Wikipedia, or a Wikilawyer. Moogwrench (talk) 16:48, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Moogwrench, who asked for a lawyeristic debate, can not dispel the backfiring of Disqualifier #3 by
- (A) An ad hominem attack on what NAEG (that's me) may or may not think
- Moogwrench, who asked for a lawyeristic debate, can not dispel the backfiring of Disqualifier #3 by
::: (B) Implying that wiki uses consensus only so long it agrees with Jimbo's views (no disrespect to anyone intended, but sounds like we need a WP:GODSAYS shortcut to a policy about that form of anti-consensus argument)
- (C) Omitting from his post titled "in the interest of balance" the excellent rebuttal to Jimbo's argument that was just called to Moogwrench's attention by another editor [here]
- I don't agree with davesouza's points, and I don't see anyone suggesting that Jimbo did either.Moogwrench (talk)
- (C) Omitting from his post titled "in the interest of balance" the excellent rebuttal to Jimbo's argument that was just called to Moogwrench's attention by another editor [here]
- Since we're now rehashing past arguments, all this shows is that article title restriction really is appropriate. NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 17:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- How so? No one ever showed that Jimbo ever agreed with davesouza's logic, so I don't see how citing him is some kind of trump card, or that that somehow effectively rebutted what Jimbo said. Moogwrench (talk) 17:42, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
WP:JIMBOSAID--Cerejota (talk) 17:45, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks C, I didn't realize there were so MANY essays about Jimbo-said. Moog, whaddya say we respect everyone's time and focus on the core question:
Should a name that some press uses, and some press says some critics use, and some press doesn't use at all, for a still-active contentious matter of advocacy..... a name that was crafted by partisans.... a name that is not essential for discussing the topic..... a name that already redirects to the existing article.... should that name become the very name of the article despite the 3rd disqualifier in WP:POVTITLE?
Moogwrench says YES by implying Jimbo's quote justifies ignoring disqualifier #3 in WP:POVTITLE, and that failing he argues that the end of formal proceedings (though not actually ended) means we are no longer discussing a matter of "still-active contentious advocacy". Perhaps we should stop beating people with tangents and red herrings and give them a chance to speak? NewsAndEventsGuy (talk) 18:07, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Common Names
It seems to me that this may need to be removed or a compromise needs to be made. It seems that people believe we should use common names for everything instead of proper names. Eg. Sailor Moon has a main article that is of it's common name so should all the pages do that? I don't think so. And here's why. If you look at the Harry Potter series it doesn't use the common Harry Potter names for the books or movies. Eg. Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows has a common name of Harry Potter 7 (and also it has the abbreviated name of Deathly Hallows) due to people who may not know that Deathly Hallows is the seventh book in the series. Does Harry Potter use the common names? No it doesn't but people seem to want to run to this cause I suggested we move the List of Sailor Moon chapters to it's proper name of List of Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon chapters which is it's Japanese name. The English name is inappropriate as it is an abbreviation of the Japanese name that was chosen when the anime was dubbed. You're probably wondering my point. My point is this: this whole common names thing seems to be a pick and chose thing and personally I think it only makes problems for all of us and probably should be changed or have exceptions made. For example if there's a main article that uses the common name as Sailor Moon does then the rest of the off articles need to go by their proper names instead of the common name. JamesAlan1986 *talk 11:16, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- I do want to add that I don't think we shouldn't use the common name inside the article I just don't agree with using the common name as the article title. JamesAlan1986 *talk 11:30, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Have you read our essay on Wikipedia:Official names? Blueboar (talk) 14:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Yeah but it's confusing me to death here LOL! Can you dumb it down for me? LOL! JamesAlan1986 *talk 14:11, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- The "common names" principle certainly does have exceptions (it's only one of several considerations, not all of which have necessarily been successfully formulated here yet). But if the main article is called Sailor Moon, then other related article titles would probably also use Sailor Moon, since the same considerations would apply to those as to the main article, plus the additional point of consistency. Unless there's some other factor involved with those other articles.--Kotniski (talk) 14:31, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
In the case of Sailor Moon that is more along the lines a common used name for the franchise instead of the actual products themselves. All sources do it even if the evidence in front of them points out differently. The best example is the manga it's commonly called Sailor Moon Vol. 1 but the product itself is under a separate name. I think for all cases and purposes the only articles that should go by common name are the main articles and not the "off articles". It's also noted under "Treatment of alternate names" that we are suppose to put proper names in the article but the List of Sailor Moon chapters doesn't. JamesAlan1986 *talk 14:45, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- About that last point, yes. Go ahead and put that in. No one should have any complaints there because you're following our guidelines. As for the article's name, List of Sailor Moon chapters also has some other aspects applied to in, including being a descriptive title, ie there is no product out there called "List of Sailor Moon chapters". Then there is stuff like length, ie when there's not a clear overwhelming evidence to use a longer name, Wikipedia prefers shorter names and Sailor Moon is defiantly shorter than Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon, does it follow the same pattern, etc. All of those don't necessarily push it towards being what it is because, being that the official title is Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon some of the criteria would favor List of Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon chapters. The biggest one here is what English sources use and specifically what independent secondary English sources use. That's not entirely clear so even if we remove that aspect and say that what they use isn't consistent between the two alternatives, we have to go with the other criteria. If we look there, the 1st two are debatable which one it would favor. The 3rd defiantly favors the Pretty Guardian one and the last two favor the status quo. Plus there is consensus on the current title so the best way would be to convince people that #1 and #2 would favor the longer title which is an uphill battle.
- EDIT: BTW you can always pipe a redirect from Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon to the main list if things don't work out and probably should.∞陣内Jinnai 15:47, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Let me try to explain the concept a bit more clearly... We are using the word "common" in the sense of "most frequently used". So, the concept behind WP:COMMONAMES is not to say that we favor unofficial names over official names - the concept is that we favor the most recognizable names over those that are less recognizable... ie we use the name readers are most familiar with and most likely use when searching for information (the name our readers will expect to find the article at). This is determined by examining the sources and seeing if they (as a body) use a particular name significantly more often than other names that could be chosen as the article title. If so, we use that name as well.
- So... if the sources tend to use the "official name" there is no problem with our using the official name. On the other hand if they use something else, so should we. So... look at the English language sources on your topic... see what those sources use. If they routinely refer to the topic by its full offical title of "Pretty Guardian Sailor Moon", then we should use that. If they routinely refer to it by the shorter "Sailor Moon", then use that instead. In either case, the other name should probably be linked as a redirect. Blueboar (talk) 16:00, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well I tried what Jinnai said but I'm not sure it's right as I don't know what the symbols are or how to post them right. JamesAlan1986 *talk 17:39, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Precision and disambiguation and primary use
There is an RFC discussion going on about a specific page and the primary topic. Over the past two years, I have been disambiguating the inbound links to the dab page currently at the main name space as a result of a previous move request. In that two year period less then 5% of the inbound links have been for the page suggested for moving to the main name space. The page hit count does show different results since the proposed page was at the top of the dab page for a while and our helpful dab team replaced a ton, several thousand, of incoming links with the wrong page. So my question is, can 5% of the new inbound links over two years constitute the primary use? If it can, then this policy needs a major rewrite. I'll leave the page name out of the discussion for right now, but I'm sure that anyone interested can figure it out. Vegaswikian (talk) 17:34, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Early versions of Caesars Palace started with the sentence: "Caesars Palace is a hotel and casino in Las Vegas, Nevada. " [1]
- I presume that's an example of a wrong link, as it now says, arguably more correctly, I'll admit, "Caesars Palace is a luxury hotel and casino located on the Las Vegas Strip in Paradise, Nevada". But let's recognize that the original version, thought not optimal, was not that far off. It was no great travesty. I think the argument could be made that the original version, though not technically correctly, might even be more helpful to readers. See my detailed comment about this at Talk:Las Vegas#Request for Comment - primary topic?, and also that of User:Toohool who notes, "Every major American city is used, to some extent, synonymously with its metropolitan area." I wouldn't limit that to American cities, or to major cities. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:17, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Except in cases where the city is not the primary topic. The Las Vegas Strip has a stronger claim for the primary topic then the city. But that is not even being considered. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- That claim is based on the assumption that when people say or write "Caesars is in 'Las Vegas'" by "Las Vegas" they are not referring to the city, but to the strip. I challenge that claim. I suspect in most cases what they mean is the city in a sense that expands beyond the strict city limits to include the famous nearby strip of casinos.
It's like saying "San Francisco" should be a dab page because when people say "San Francisco" the could mean the entire bay area, and the bay area has a stronger claim to be the primary topic for San Francisco. That's absurd, of course, but so is the argument that the strip is the primary topic for "Las Vegas". --Born2cycle (talk) 20:11, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well, your assumption is based on an opinion that is not supported by common usage. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:29, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- My assumption is that when people say "Las Vegas" they don't mean just the Strip; that is, they are not excluding the city proper from the concept to which they refer when they say or write "Las Vegas". That assumption is not supported by common usage? You believe they usually mean the strip and only the strip? That per common usage, for example, the Golden Nugget is not in "Las Vegas"? I am not aware of any basis for that view.
My view is that by common usage both the Golden Nugget and the Bellagio are in the place to which people most commonly refer when they say or write "Las Vegas", and, so that place is the primary use of "Las Vegas". I also claim that the topic of the article at Las Vegas, Nevada, if it were expanded to include a section on the strip (and a link to the complete article), along with a note stating that technically the Strip is not within the city proper, would be about that primary topic place. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:37, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- Las Vegas is clearly a place on it's own merits. It is not restricted to the city and the strip. So the Las Vegas Valley best covers what readers expect when they say Las Vegas. Clearly the strip is more likely the intended destination then the city. But expanding the city article to include areas 12 miles away but excluding areas that are adjacent to the city is simply a bad idea. You could make a better argument that the strip is the primary topic then the city, but it too fails the criteria for being the primary topic. Given that the city is less then 5% of the incoming links to the dab page clearly says that it is not the primary topic. Las Vegas is a brand and a destination marked by a county and several cities! It also just happens to be the name of two cities. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:23, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- 12 miles? The north end of the strip -- Sahara Ave -- borders the city limits... they're adjacent, not separated by 12 miles! (it even says so at Las Vegas Strip).
When you say the city is less then 5% of the incoming links to the dab page, what you mean is that the city proper is less than 5%... I'm dubious about it being quite that low, but I won't dispute that, because it's irrelevant to my argument. My point -- which I made above with the example of Caesars Palace which you ignored -- is that the city proper plus the adjacent strip is almost all of the incoming links... that's why that topic -- the city proper plus the adjacent strip -- is the primary use.
I mean, what you're arguing is that the Las Vegas Convention Center is not in the place commonly referred to as "Las Vegas". That's just absurd. --Born2cycle (talk) 03:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- No, I'm saying that the convention center is in the valley and is a part of what everyone considers Las Vegas and it should be covered by the Las Vegas article which should not be the city article. The arguments that the city article should be expanded are that it should cover areas 12 miles or more outside of the city but exclude areas adjacent to the city. That is simply not supported by any thing. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:05, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? Who is arguing "that the city article ... should cover areas 12 miles or more outside of the city?"
You know, "San Diego" is sometimes used to refer to the entire San Diego County, just like "San Francisco" is sometimes used to refer to the entire bay area. Similarly, "Las Vegas" is sometimes used to refer to the entire valley, and sometimes it's used to refer to the city proper, but, as the links to the dab page show, usually they are used to refer to the city plus the strip. Usage of "Las Vegas" to mean the entire valley is much less common. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:34, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, now I understand. Las Vegas occasionally is used to describe the city. It is most commonly used to describe casinos, hotels, entertainment, venues and all other activities that are in the Las Vegas Valley which is normally called Las Vegas. All cities are not by default the primary use. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:17, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- No, the casinos, hotels and entertainment venues are not called "Las Vegas"... the place where all that is located is called "Las Vegas", especially in the relevant context here: usage in Wikipedia articles which link to Las Vegas. The exact boundaries implied by each invocation of "Las Vegas" is impossible to determine, but I think it's safe to say that the place defined as the city, plus the strip is going to be the best fit in most cases. That is, if we exclude the strip most references will be incorrect, but if include the entire valley we'll be including much more than is usually implied. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:55, 26 September 2011 (UTC)
- Ah, now I understand. Las Vegas occasionally is used to describe the city. It is most commonly used to describe casinos, hotels, entertainment, venues and all other activities that are in the Las Vegas Valley which is normally called Las Vegas. All cities are not by default the primary use. Vegaswikian (talk) 07:17, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- What are you talking about? Who is arguing "that the city article ... should cover areas 12 miles or more outside of the city?"
- No, I'm saying that the convention center is in the valley and is a part of what everyone considers Las Vegas and it should be covered by the Las Vegas article which should not be the city article. The arguments that the city article should be expanded are that it should cover areas 12 miles or more outside of the city but exclude areas adjacent to the city. That is simply not supported by any thing. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:05, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- 12 miles? The north end of the strip -- Sahara Ave -- borders the city limits... they're adjacent, not separated by 12 miles! (it even says so at Las Vegas Strip).
- Las Vegas is clearly a place on it's own merits. It is not restricted to the city and the strip. So the Las Vegas Valley best covers what readers expect when they say Las Vegas. Clearly the strip is more likely the intended destination then the city. But expanding the city article to include areas 12 miles away but excluding areas that are adjacent to the city is simply a bad idea. You could make a better argument that the strip is the primary topic then the city, but it too fails the criteria for being the primary topic. Given that the city is less then 5% of the incoming links to the dab page clearly says that it is not the primary topic. Las Vegas is a brand and a destination marked by a county and several cities! It also just happens to be the name of two cities. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:23, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
- My assumption is that when people say "Las Vegas" they don't mean just the Strip; that is, they are not excluding the city proper from the concept to which they refer when they say or write "Las Vegas". That assumption is not supported by common usage? You believe they usually mean the strip and only the strip? That per common usage, for example, the Golden Nugget is not in "Las Vegas"? I am not aware of any basis for that view.
- Well, your assumption is based on an opinion that is not supported by common usage. Vegaswikian (talk) 02:29, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- That claim is based on the assumption that when people say or write "Caesars is in 'Las Vegas'" by "Las Vegas" they are not referring to the city, but to the strip. I challenge that claim. I suspect in most cases what they mean is the city in a sense that expands beyond the strict city limits to include the famous nearby strip of casinos.
- Except in cases where the city is not the primary topic. The Las Vegas Strip has a stronger claim for the primary topic then the city. But that is not even being considered. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:46, 21 September 2011 (UTC)
Unusual "were you looking for?" entries such as "WikiProject North Carolina"
Current dablink:
"Multiple shortcuts redirect here; you may be looking for What is an article?, Manual of Style (Article layout), Username policy, Manual of Style (biographies), Manual of Style (titles), Wikipedia is Not Censored, WikiProject North Carolina, Article message boxes, Amnesia test, or Attribution."
Do we need "WikiProject North Carolina", "Amnesia test", "Wikipedia is Not Censored" here? Facts707 (talk) 12:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I generally find this sort of clutter annoying. They're there because WP:AT and WP:NC point here, and someone might conceivably have thought that those shortcuts lead somewhere else (perhaps in the distant past they did). Personally I would get rid of that line - if people have got to the wrong place, they'll try a different search term and get there soon enough.--Kotniski (talk) 12:21, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info - I was bold and redirected WP:NC to go to WP:NOTCENSORED with consequential edits. Facts707 (talk) 12:37, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- WP:NC goes here because it used to be called Wikipedia:Naming conventions. You may have just broken hundreds of links in various archives. Powers T 12:44, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Exactly what I was going to say. Take a look at What links here for WP:NC. older ≠ wiser 12:47, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- My guess is that there is a historical reason why each of these short cuts point to this page... so, I would not change the redirects. However, I agree that we don't need all of these "are you looking for WP:X?" notes. Blueboar (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I changed WP:NC into a disambiguation page since there is apparently some ambiguity and there are objections to including every shortcut both on this page and on WP:NOT. As a disambiguation page, editors can find whichever use might have been intended. older ≠ wiser 14:45, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am still concerned about broken links in talk page archives. Powers T 15:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree. WP:NC has pointed here for close to 8 years. It's hard to believe more than a handful of the thousands of incoming links intend anything else. This is akin to a clear primary topic for WP:NC. Station1 (talk) 15:55, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- (after ec) What exactly is the concern? Readers can get to the intended target (assuming of course that there is sufficient context to determine naming conventions was the intended referent). Unless there is agreement to restore the shortcut hatnotes, I don't see there is any other way to resolve the ambiguity. older ≠ wiser 15:57, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- older ≠ wiser does not mean there is no consensus. It's clear that NC probably should redirect here. I'm sure if you brought it up at WP:NOT given how long its linked here, people would say the same thing. A hatnote about WP:NC linking here for people looking for WP:NOTCENSORED may be warranted, but that's just replacing one set of hatnotes with another.∞陣内Jinnai 16:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I agree WP:NC should point here (the page was called Naming Conventions for ages, and people still use that shortcut quite a lot). But I don't think it necessary to include a hatnote to everything else in project space that NC might conceivably stand for - that produces clutter at the top of the page that distracts everyone who comes here, and helps no-one in particular all that much.--Kotniski (talk) 16:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- (after ec) Jinnai, I'm not sure what you intended to say with your first sentence: older ≠ wiser does not mean there is no consensus. The first few editors posting in this section all agreed that the shortcuts were unnecessary. Regardless of how long the redirect existed, there is ambiguity with regards to what WP:NC might mean. Especially as the shortcut is at present not at all intuitive given the current title of what used to be the Naming Conventions page. My point is that given the ambiguity, either we include hatnotes and suffer with the clutter or we leave the "shortcut" as a disambiguation page. older ≠ wiser 16:30, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Or perhaps I have misunderstood. It appears several editors are saying the ambiguity is irrelevant and that there should be a redirect and minimal hatnotes. Personally, I think keeping the shortcut to a page that has been renamed such that the shortcut is non-obvious only perpetuates confusion. older ≠ wiser 16:36, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I think several editors are saying that. I have no big problem with leaving the hatnote as it was even if it was a little long. On the other hand, for those few people who might type "WP:NC" in the search box looking for something else, I agree that they'll figure out that they should type WP:North Carolina or WP:NOTCENSORED, with or without a hatnote. Station1 (talk) 16:56, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- older ≠ wiser does not mean there is no consensus. It's clear that NC probably should redirect here. I'm sure if you brought it up at WP:NOT given how long its linked here, people would say the same thing. A hatnote about WP:NC linking here for people looking for WP:NOTCENSORED may be warranted, but that's just replacing one set of hatnotes with another.∞陣内Jinnai 16:18, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I am still concerned about broken links in talk page archives. Powers T 15:28, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I changed WP:NC into a disambiguation page since there is apparently some ambiguity and there are objections to including every shortcut both on this page and on WP:NOT. As a disambiguation page, editors can find whichever use might have been intended. older ≠ wiser 14:45, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- My guess is that there is a historical reason why each of these short cuts point to this page... so, I would not change the redirects. However, I agree that we don't need all of these "are you looking for WP:X?" notes. Blueboar (talk) 13:58, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info - I was bold and redirected WP:NC to go to WP:NOTCENSORED with consequential edits. Facts707 (talk) 12:37, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
- I don't know if we need one for WP:North Carolina. I could be wrong, but I don't think its probably much sought page. WP:NOTCENSORED is though.∞陣内Jinnai 20:20, 22 September 2011 (UTC)
I support restoring WP:NC to be a redirect to this page rather remain as a dab page. There is no precedent for WP:NC redirecting to anything but this page, so there can be no expectation for it go anywhere else. Like others have noted, all we accomplish by leaving it as dab is break countless links that use WP:NC to point to this page. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:56, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
- The confusion with the "were you looking for...?" links involves more than just the shortcut WP:NC... I seriously doubt that someone looking for WP:Username policy, WP:Manual of Style (biographies), or WP:Article message boxes would ever end up here by mistake (WP:Manual of Style (titles) is a bit more possible, but even that is a stretch).
- I think what has occurred is that someone has mixed up a) items that logically should be in a "related policicies" or a "see also" section and b) items what should go under a "were you looking for...?" hatnote. Blueboar (talk) 22:50, 23 September 2011 (UTC)
I've reverted WP:NC to point back to Wikipedia:Article titles. There is no consensus here that it should be a dab page. Powers T 14:13, 24 September 2011 (UTC)
While there's a clear consensus against mucking with shortcuts like WP:NC, I see no support for keeping weird things in the hatnote, so I'm deleting them.
Dead example and bad advice anyway
This example needs to be replaced: "Diacritics: canon vs. cañon". Cañon is not an article title, and I seem to recall that we have years and years of precedent against ever having page names that are only distinguished by diacritics, because non-expert users cannot search for or even type them. Indeed, the non-diacritic version of an article title should always redirect to the diacritic version or be a disambiguation page that links to it. Or vice versa - sometimes we prefer the non-diacritic version as the actual article title, per WP:COMMONNAME. I'm thus removing this junk. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō)ˀ Contribs. 15:18, 27 September 2011 (UTC)
- Well done, SMcC. I have copyedited the addition you made, without changing the message.
- NoeticaTea? 00:04, 28 September 2011 (UTC)