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Arbitration motion restricting Gamaliel
Gamaliel asked for this? If he doesn't want to take any action to enforce any arbitration decision within the GamerGate topic, why doesn't he just not take any action to enforce any arbitration decision within the GamerGate topic? NE Ent 22:21, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, and his request for this was quite explicit. Courcelles (talk) 22:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- The Ent and I don’t seem to agree on a whole lot, but I have to say that I’m puzzled too. The best way to not enforce arbitration decisions is not to enforce them, right? Does this apply as well to gender-related controversies, and biographies of people involved in gender-related controversies? And does it apply to new Arbitration cases, appeals of old cases, and requests for clarification? If so, this motion effectively reverses the most recent ArbCom election for a huge swath of ArbCom business: is that actually within ArbCom’s powers, and is there any precedent? It’s the final day of April (GMT): is this some sort of mirror world April 1 joke? MarkBernstein (talk) 22:37, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- At any rate it extends to GamerGate, which makes the above a rather blatant violation of your topic ban, no? Self-redaction is probably in order. GoldenRing (talk) 14:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Was this action taken to head off some kind of formal sanctions? (which is strongly implied by the use of "remedy" in the motion) If so, it might be a good thing if it led to (at least roughly) the same result with next to no drama. Otherwise, it's a bit unusual - though harmless at the end of the day. Nick-D (talk) 22:50, 30 April 2016 (UTC)
- A self-requested restriction can make sense as a commitment device or as a means of avoiding conflicts of interest. It might have been more clear if the request was on-wiki but whatever. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 03:32, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- Just noting that my oppose was because I don't believe sanctions/a motion should be placed on a party to a case during that case except as a temporary injunction in response to ongoing issues. A request from a party to be banned from something which is in the scope of the case can and should definitely be considered but IMHO should be considered as part of the proposed decision not imposed during the evidence phase. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 02:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
I'm guessing that Gamaliel doesn't want to fight battle after battle after battle anymore, and so has arranged to make himself forbidden to do so. Kudos to Gamaliel and the committee, this is how it's supposed to work. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 02:16, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks. User:Nick-D, the use of the word 'remedy' is my error, at the last moment I added a copy-paste appeal clause and somehow missed that. It shouldn't have been included. No, this was not to head off any kind of formal sanction. Doug Weller talk 05:24, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- User:Nick-D I've now corrected this, the word should have been decision, not remedy. Thanks for noticing this. Doug Weller talk 07:07, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Removing trolling - Don't feed please |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Hm. Out of curiosity, do regular users get the privilege of signing an under-the-table off-wiki plea bargain with the Arbcom, or is this yet another way that some animals are more equal than others? --Миборовский (talk) 16:21, 1 May 2016 (UTC) |
- Signing? If anyone wants the ctte to give them a ban, just e-mail them and ask for one, you just have to convince enough of the members it is a good idea. Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:54, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think the reason for this was to get a better deal. It was the realization that the current case against him was almost certainly politically motivated, as regards to GG and American Politics. And this make further campaigns against him less likely.--Jules (Mrjulesd) 17:37, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- alanscottwalker is actually right, but of course it depends upon the reasons and the context. It's unusual but possible. Doug Weller talk 17:56, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Miborovsky, there is no table. There's this thing called email, which is like Twitter but only the people this "email" got sent to get to read it. And you can do more words. If you like, you can send us one asking for a ban of sorts and we'll discuss it, in private. Gamaliel is not an animal, and did not--as far as I know--gain anything by this, except for respect, after taking what must have been a very difficult and painful decision; AGF pretty much requires you to do so, but of course even ArbCom or God almighty can't mandate respect. Drmies (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Wow, I wondered why the above had been collapsed and had a look at the contribs. One of the features of Gamergate has been the amazing number of accounts that have been reactivated to join the fun, but the above is pretty special because Miborovsky's last edit before contributing to this case was in December 2011. Johnuniq (talk) 11:34, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Just another former admin who walked away and came back to find the inmates running the asylum. What you call "fun" is just another nail in the coffin for the puported neutrality of Wikipedia. Watching ArbCom do its best to give the impression that they're giving preferential treatment to one of their own is too funny for me to not comment upon. --Миборовский (talk) 18:48, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
- Since this motion makes it clear that GamerGate is relevant to the case, I would expect the clerks User:Amortias and User:L235 to restore the GamerGate-related evidence by other editors that they previously removed. Or, I would expect them to explain why they have not done so. You can't have it both ways, folks. Black Kite (talk) 18:26, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- We haven't changed the scope so they shouldn't do that. I can understand why you are interpreting it this way, but that's an overinterpretation. We accepted a request from Gamaliel, we didn't impose this on our own initiative. If we'd done this on our own initiative then I'd agree with you. Doug Weller talk 18:34, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well, I'm unsure why that should make a difference, to be honest. If evidence is relevant, it should be accepted. Black Kite (talk) 18:38, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- We haven't changed the scope so they shouldn't do that. I can understand why you are interpreting it this way, but that's an overinterpretation. We accepted a request from Gamaliel, we didn't impose this on our own initiative. If we'd done this on our own initiative then I'd agree with you. Doug Weller talk 18:34, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well, unlike the Iban that was implemented, this action is not noted on Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gamaliel and others. So, the self-requested ban might not be considered to be a part of the case proceedings and it might be seen as a separate arbitration motion of imposing a topic ban. Liz Read! Talk! 23:43, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- It was noted here: Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gamaliel_and_others#Arbitration_motion_restricting_Gamaliel NE Ent 23:48, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
Facepalm My mistake. I didn't think of looking at the talk pages, just the main page and the Proposed Decision pages. Liz Read! Talk! 23:55, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- I don't care where it was noted, Black Kite. Of course this particular decision is GG related since it's about GG--that doesn't mean that GG is part of the case. If I were to parse this, I'd say an admin noted that they don't have full support of the community for their work in a specific area and they're doing the right thing. But I'm not parsing this. Drmies (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- A more likely interpretation is that the drip-drip-drip of the gamergaters is succeeding, and Gamaliel is fed up with the off-wiki harassment and the on-wiki misguided commentary. Gamaliel might have chosen to stop monitoring the topic but making it official announces to everyone that it is over, and participants should switch to complaining about the next admin who monitors the area. Johnuniq (talk) 03:51, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- What, exactly, "is over"? He asked for a ban on enforcing arbitration decisions, not a topic ban. He's therefore capable of editing or serving as a administrator on Gamergate topics, correct? Am I missing something here? Marteau (talk) 04:13, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- It's just weird that evidence in regards to Gamaliel's conduct in the GG space was removed by clerks as being out of scope. Then this happens. I don't think anyone is particularly upset at the result of the motion, just the strangeness of how it's come about. Arkon (talk) 15:08, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- If he's truly 'sick and tired' of dealing with Gamergate I'm not sure why he's left the door open to editing and adminning it. This does have the potential of short-circuiting the process and preempting the consideration of a Gamergate restriction of real substance rather than symbolism. Marteau (talk) 15:40, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- It was noted here: Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gamaliel_and_others#Arbitration_motion_restricting_Gamaliel NE Ent 23:48, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well, unlike the Iban that was implemented, this action is not noted on Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gamaliel and others. So, the self-requested ban might not be considered to be a part of the case proceedings and it might be seen as a separate arbitration motion of imposing a topic ban. Liz Read! Talk! 23:43, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
This is amazingly light considering the seriousness of Gamaliel's misconduct. Surely the matter is not going to be considered settled with this one weak restriction? Everyking (talk) 06:38, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- What part of 'at his initiative' and the fact that the decision wasn't officially recorded as part of the case leads anyone to suggest the case is settled? It goes ahead as normal. And everyone, please don't turn speculation into fact. People have real lives and those lives can be complicated (well, real life usually is). Doug Weller talk 06:48, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Just saw this. This does address the primary administrative concern I had, and I would applaud Gamaliel for stepping up this way. I think it was the right thing to store faith. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 16:52, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
- Again, I think this is the sort of thing an arbitration committee should make a habit of. OTHO, if Everyking's concern can be boiled down to "a day late and a dollar short", I absolutely empathize. --SB_Johnny | talk✌ 01:30, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
You May All Be Barking Up The Wrong Tree
Lots of people are speculating that this request is a confession of wrong-doing and an effort to head off greater sanctions. I think you all might be mistaken.
First, it wouldn’t work. Second, it would be irresponsible; an editor may do what they like, but an arbitrator is elected and responsible to their voters. Third: many of you have known Gamaliel for a long time; sometimes, weak-willed Wikipedians ask to be blocked because they can’t control their editing, but self-control is Gamaliel’s middle name. (Believe me: I have the scars to prove it.)
We know (and ArbCom knows) that Gamaliel received at least one murder threat on-wiki, in circumstances suggesting that the person making the threat knew where he lives (and also knew my travel schedule). We know (and ArbCom knows) that other threats of various kinds have been made off-wiki. We know (and the world knows) that trolls have developed a taste for sophisticated opposition research and have used it to damage careers and threaten family members.
If someone were threatening to punish an administrator if that administrator opposed them, how could the administrator prove that they would cease their opposition? Only by either (a) resigning the tools, or (b) having Arbcom ban them from the opponent’s area of interest.
I also observe that, in the event this scenario were the case, the Community on this page would have done a great deal to further the harassment and nothing to obstruct it or to assist its target. That is consistent with what I have come to expect of Wikipedia generally and ArbCom specifically, but it is deeply disappointing. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:00, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Far be from me but aren't you topic banned from this subject? Arguably, the Arbcom case is larger in scope but this discussion is about an admin's enforcement antics in an area where you are topic banned. Why in the world should you care? Is there any reason why someone shouldn't just collapse this section as entirely off-topic, particularly when you're going to blatantly discuss harassment against Gamaliel so blindly? Isn't there a policy that we protect victims by reducing our discussions of any harassment unless it's relevant? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 22:17, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
The topic of this section is "Arbitration Motion Concerning Gamaliel". We are discussing this motion, and several editors have speculated here on the motivation behind it. I believe those speculations may be mistaken and offer an alternative explanation. I am not (as far as I am aware) topic-banned from the subject of Gamaliel, nor from the subject of Wikipedia governance, arbitration committee, harassment, or extortion; those are the matters I raise here.
The arbitrators have stated repeatedly that the scope of Gamaliel and others does not involve Gamergate. You apparently believe otherwise, but I fancy the arbitrators know their mind.
As a purely general observation: a very good way to encourage harassment and extortion is to pretend that it cannot exist. An excellent way to make harassment and extortion more effective is to punish the victim. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:03, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
- And, by far, the worst thing to do is bring it up in a public forum. If such matters are at issue it is the prerogative of the subject of those attacks to decide when and where they are addressed, not for some third party. I would think this would be clear to an ethical journalist, who may have off-wiki knowledge, if not simple common sence for, well... anyone. Speculation without knowledge is even worse and is simple drama mongering and deserving of only contempt. JbhTalk 23:16, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
- I regret that you believe I am speculating without knowledge, or that I am seeking drama, or that I deserve contempt. You may perhaps be mistaken in some or all of these three opinions. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:27, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
- Then you are making public information about a third party, which they have not chosen to reveal, based on implied off-wiki knowledge. That action is deserving of all three of those opinions plus indictive of an ethical failure and, based on WP:OUTING, blockable. Maybe an admin would be kind enough to do so. PS Indent your posts. I have taken the liberty of cleaning up the threading. JbhTalk 23:37, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
- I regret that you believe I am speculating without knowledge, or that I am seeking drama, or that I deserve contempt. You may perhaps be mistaken in some or all of these three opinions. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:27, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
- (edit conflict)I have taken care not to reveal any personal information regarding any people who might be involved. Please calm down. Take a deep breath. If you suspend disbelief and conjecture that I might conceivably be a reasonable person, you may reach a different understanding. (Pro tips: "implied" and "implicit" are different things, as are "indicate" and :indict." All knowledge is off-wiki since the poor wiki doesn't know anything. Sorry about the threading; my threading habits go back to the original Wiki -- Ward’s Wiki, the WikiWIkiWeb -- where deep indents were undesirable.MarkBernstein (talk) 23:54, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
- Possibly I have misunderstood what you have written - what you seem to be saying is that Gamialiel is "possibly" being subject to some form of extortion by unspecified individuals re his involvement in admining GamerGate. That whatever pressure that is being used is sufficient to require him to publicly remove himself via this sanction. My responce is that if you know this to be true then you should not be bringing it up for privacy and other reasons and if you do not know it to be true you should not be bringing it up for those reasons plus baseless drama mongering. I simply see no good reason for you to be speculating on the motives of a third party and whether they are being subject to extortion and threats of "punishment". Yes, I do know you covered yourself by using hypothetical phrasing
"If someone were threatining..."
but that is a bare fig leaf. You are either writing about the subject of this sanction while wanting to leave yourself an out or you wanted to make readers think you are writing about the subject of this sanction, while leaving yourself an out. Neither is good. Have I misread you? If so how? JbhTalk 00:28, 5 May 2016 (UTC) - @MarkBernstein: please just stop this. It is not helpful and indeed you may be barking up the wrong tree with your speculation. And this is clearly a violation of the spirit of the ban. Doug Weller talk 12:12, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- If this "extortion" scenario MarkBernstein alludes to is nothing more than speculation, I would say it's a clear violation not only of the spirit of the ban, but the letter of the ban: "You are indefinitely prohibited from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to, (a) Gamergate,..." Marteau (talk) 13:15, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- A point in MarkBernstein's favor: Gamaliel and MarkBernstein are frequent targets of ridicule for their actions on Wikipedia on GG-related public forums off-wiki (Reddit, etc.). That people talk about both of them in derogatory manners is very easy to check and identify (there's several active threads right now). But that said, I have not seen anything in the last several months suggesting any public discussion that suggests they are engaging in harassment or extortion towards Gamaliel (or MarkBernstein) there, and certainly nothing that I can connect via publicly self-identified handles to any WP editors. In other words, from what publicly is there, I don't see anything to support MarkBernstein's assertions, though there could readily be private discussions going on that have led to these; it would be expected that if this is affecting Gamaliel by en.wiki editors, that this be provided by MarkBernstein in private correspondence to the committee to be dealt with, as has happened before in the GG topic area. Otherwise, this goes back to the aspirations towards en.wiki editors that MarkBernstein was topic-banned for ([1]). --MASEM (t) 14:45, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- If this "extortion" scenario MarkBernstein alludes to is nothing more than speculation, I would say it's a clear violation not only of the spirit of the ban, but the letter of the ban: "You are indefinitely prohibited from making any edit about, and from editing any page relating to, (a) Gamergate,..." Marteau (talk) 13:15, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- Possibly I have misunderstood what you have written - what you seem to be saying is that Gamialiel is "possibly" being subject to some form of extortion by unspecified individuals re his involvement in admining GamerGate. That whatever pressure that is being used is sufficient to require him to publicly remove himself via this sanction. My responce is that if you know this to be true then you should not be bringing it up for privacy and other reasons and if you do not know it to be true you should not be bringing it up for those reasons plus baseless drama mongering. I simply see no good reason for you to be speculating on the motives of a third party and whether they are being subject to extortion and threats of "punishment". Yes, I do know you covered yourself by using hypothetical phrasing
- (edit conflict)I have taken care not to reveal any personal information regarding any people who might be involved. Please calm down. Take a deep breath. If you suspend disbelief and conjecture that I might conceivably be a reasonable person, you may reach a different understanding. (Pro tips: "implied" and "implicit" are different things, as are "indicate" and :indict." All knowledge is off-wiki since the poor wiki doesn't know anything. Sorry about the threading; my threading habits go back to the original Wiki -- Ward’s Wiki, the WikiWIkiWeb -- where deep indents were undesirable.MarkBernstein (talk) 23:54, 4 May 2016 (UTC)
- I have made and will make no comment here at all concerning
Gamergatethe Dread Pirate Roberts or the Association amicale des amateurs d'andouillette authentique. I will also not comment on my aspirations, present or past. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:29, 5 May 2016 (UTC)- You do realize you're not even supposed to use the word "Gamergate" outside of the exemptions in BANEX? Capeo (talk) 15:49, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- You are playing semantic games. You sent tweets about this subsection of yours and your extortion scenario ("Barking up the wrong tree"), invoke 'Gamergate' explitictly in the tweet, and then say you are "making no comment here" about Gamergate. Pure gamesmanship. You are clearly talking about Gamergate as indicated by your sending your followers here and saying as much. Your ban prohibits you from talking about Gamergate here, it is not a ban on simply saying the word. Marteau (talk) 17:28, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- I have not identified or characterized the source of the threats on-wiki. Elsewhere, I believe I am free to write as I please. I write professionally about new media and web science, and the topic discussed here is of considerable interest to scholars in these fields. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:15, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- I have made and will make no comment here at all concerning
As a general comment, it's been clear for a long time that editors working in and around the GG topic area have faced extensive, sustained and entirely asymmetric pressure. This pressure manifests not just as harassment and bullshit online but in a clear message to editors working on the topic that their actions will be monitored and scrutinized by a group of people not exactly known for their precision and charm when they've decided someone is an enemy of the state. It's resulted in literal actual fucking death and rape threats to editors and the constant surveillance and calls to action allows the use of arbcom and AE to punish editors on forums here. It also profoundly chills participation in the topic area in ways we just aren't used to on wikipedia. Protonk (talk) 16:53, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- Either way, given the principles from prior ARBCOM cases, the remedy is not open speculation about it but if there's evidence of harassment, for the victims to be protected by having the issues brought to Arbcom secretly and off-wiki. As such, while the prior discussion was just pure speculation, this comment thread moving into serious speculation about death threats now is going beyond what is necessary. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 19:43, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- This discussion has gone quite a way beyond Gamaliel's restriction from taking any action to enforce any arbitration decisions within the Gamergate topic. Can this discussion be closed or moved to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gamaliel and others? If editors have issues with MarkBernstein's posts, can you move them to his talk page or to the AE board? This is not the proper forum for action to be taken. Liz Read! Talk! 19:54, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- There is already an ongoing discussion at WP:AE, which would seem to be the best place. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:48, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- Without commenting on specific conflicts, JBH is right about a basic principle: if you see something on wiki that impacts another person's privacy, it's better to notify the affected person quietly (i.e. by email) or contact wp:oversight, than to create a Streisand effect by stirring up drama on wiki. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 02:07, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Motion: Oversight block appeals (Oversight-l)
It should be noted that this applies only based on the block being marked as an Oversight block, not based on the blocking admin's userrights. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 02:53, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
- I updated the policy page Wikipedia:Blocking_policy#Oversight_blocks per the motion by copy pasting (with attribution, of course) the exact language of the motion ; such a note could be made there, or discussed on the corresponding talk page. (Personally I find the language clear enough as is). NE Ent 10:45, 7 May 2016 (UTC)
Doncram amendment motion
- Nice to see positive movement on this one. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:25, 14 May 2016 (UTC).
- Original announcement
- Thanks to the committee. I can see why the workshop and evidence pages have been courtesy blanked; I think that's a little overdoing it on the main page. At least, shouldn't it be in Category:Wikipedia arbitration cases? BethNaught (talk) 20:01, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- Remedy #4 encourages editors to "make use of the material presented in the Evidence and Analysis of Evidence sections". I assume "Evidence" means Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Wikicology/Evidence and "Analysis of Evidence" is in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Wikicology/Workshop...links would have been useful. But if arbcom instructs us to use the content, User:Mdann52's privacy-blanked both of those pages, citing a non-public request or discussion on clerks-l, interfering with our ability to do so. Can't really have it both ways! If indeed there is acceptance that blanking is okay, we can still get to the content if we want to see it (it's not revdel'ed) but we have to know that we can (and know how to) dig through the page-histories prior to blanking. That makes it even more important to provide links to the old revisions (and sections thereof) that actually had the content. DMacks (talk) 20:07, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. While there was a finding of fact that Wikicology was harassed, in the absence of any remedies or specific findings on those grounds I think it's a little bit overkill. At the very least, his account ought to be tagged with
{{sockpuppet|Isaacatm|proven}}
to enable the appropriate categorization if and when the need arises to act on his sockpuppetrycase in the future. I mean, there was a finding of fact that he's a sock. Like, I get the harassment issue. I get that's why we're honoring his request, so we're not google-bombing his real name (which wouldn't happen given ArbCom pages aren't indexed: see Template:Bug). —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 21:08, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- I agree. While there was a finding of fact that Wikicology was harassed, in the absence of any remedies or specific findings on those grounds I think it's a little bit overkill. At the very least, his account ought to be tagged with
- Remedy #4 encourages editors to "make use of the material presented in the Evidence and Analysis of Evidence sections". I assume "Evidence" means Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Wikicology/Evidence and "Analysis of Evidence" is in Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Wikicology/Workshop...links would have been useful. But if arbcom instructs us to use the content, User:Mdann52's privacy-blanked both of those pages, citing a non-public request or discussion on clerks-l, interfering with our ability to do so. Can't really have it both ways! If indeed there is acceptance that blanking is okay, we can still get to the content if we want to see it (it's not revdel'ed) but we have to know that we can (and know how to) dig through the page-histories prior to blanking. That makes it even more important to provide links to the old revisions (and sections thereof) that actually had the content. DMacks (talk) 20:07, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- The links to revisions of Wikicology's user page (namely in FoF#3 but possibly in other parts) do not work because "oldid=" doesn't work for deleted revisions (which must be linked to by timestamp). Since the main case is blanked, I supposed this cannot be fixed, but I'm leaving a note here that if the main case page is ever agreed upon to be unblanked, these links should be fixed, otherwise the essence of the FoF becomes unsupported. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 22:08, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- @BethNaught, DMacks, and Mendaliv: As far as I'm concerned, when someone gets banned we should do what we can to help them disengage. Taking preventative action against non-compliant crawlers and bottom-feeding mirrors is easy enough. Of course it's perfectly fine to reference the material in the page history and compile the on-wiki stuff (without real names and similar details) - I'd suggest an organization modeled on a CCI, checking for unverifiable as well as copied material in live mainspace edits. As for the sock thing, that's been public knowledge for years and we are pretty much agreed that this is just background information. There's no need to tag and template now. @Salvidrim!: Thanks for the pointer. Presumably, if there is a need to restore the case page, those circumstances would also justify restoring the userpage. In any event, it's fairly clear from the page history what the intended reference is. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:26, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: Your phrase
it's perfectly fine to reference the material in the page history and compile the on-wiki stuff (without real names and similar details)
implies some kind of injunction suppressing the name Olatunde Isaac. Could you please clarify. This is already having a chilling effect: "I'm honestly scared that even linking to his earlier ANI would result in a block." quoth Medaliv. BethNaught (talk) 07:46, 14 May 2016 (UTC)- @BethNaught: Injunction? No, not anything so formal... I'm just saying that I hope people will be considerate despite their frustration with having a mess to clean up. How would posting his name on a cleanup subpage help? Opabinia regalis (talk) 18:36, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- @Opabinia regalis: Your phrase
- Is this something new that ArbCom is doing? I'm not aware of any serious pattern of practice where this sort of vanishment, or even failing to tag the editor as banned, is routinely granted to editors regardless of whether he or she has been harassed. Just going down the list: Lightbreather, Technical 13, OccultZone, Esoglou, Padresfan94, Wifione, Ryulong, and Carolmooredc were all banned by ArbCom in 2014 or 2015 and every last one of them have a userpage with the ban notice. Only North8000 lacks such a notice. Many of these editors were not sockpuppeteers, many were subjected to harassment. I just find this really confusing, especially given this evidently extraordinary remedy was neither briefed nor discussed during workshop, and forms no part of the official decision. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 22:52, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- Additionally, I'll note that the banning policy very clearly states that the normal, albeit not mandatory, position in a ban is for a banned user's user and user talk pages to be tagged. If ArbCom has made a determination that Wikicology's user and user talk pages should not be tagged, then that determination should have been made part of the enforcement provisions of the decision. If this is just one of those optional things, then I would respectfully suggest that this is an issue that should have been briefed and discussed. Tagging banned users as banned is important. Tagging banned users as banned is done to inform community members—especially inexperienced ones—who discover a banned user's pre-ban edits of the ban, so they are alerted that attempting to engage the user in discussion will fail. It is especially concerning because of the documented quality of Wikicology's edits. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 23:17, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- Tend to agree here that arbitrators should be making it clear on-wiki that this is part of a arbitration requirement to keep these pages blanked and untagged; my good faith assumption is that there is a secret reason as to why it needs to happen that can't be discussed on-wiki, but the results of that decision should be able to be stated in other then deletion logs and edit summaries. — xaosflux Talk 23:25, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- And even if there are grounds to keep the page untagged, why was it re-deleted when the only contributions in the page history were the addition of and removal of the tags? If this is an anti-harassment provision, what anti-harassment value is there in removing the history of adding a tag to a blank page? —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 23:47, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- Agree with the above. It is normal to tag, and often it is non-admin that do the tagging. If it is to be excluded from tagging, it should be in the decision, and we can even put a hidden comment in the user and talk page to that effect with the link. Otherwise, we admin can't enforce if someone does tag, for lack of standing. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:45, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- @Mendaliv: First off, thanks for taking an interest in this case; your workshop proposals were very helpful :) On this particular question, it is not an "extraordinary remedy" to put the text of the case behind, at most, two additional clicks. The reason for the ban is, of course, documented in the block log - which is a much better repository of such information than userpage templates, since it's so rarely modified - plus there's a notice on the talk page. These banned-editor tags are a recurring source of dispute and frustration, and tend to encourage people who need to disengage from Wikipedia altogether to instead monitor what's going on with their userpages. @Xaosflux: Sorry, you're right, it would've been better if an arb or clerk had done the deletion in the first place, but CSD admins are fast :) Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:02, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- That Arb notice has a date on it. Does the user have archiving? I didn't check. That is one of the reasons tags are helpful. It isn't about shaming, it just information. Had they used their real name here at Wikipedia (a foolish thing to do, no?) then I'm always for avoiding tags for BLP like reasons. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:05, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, OR, it's good to feel appreciated. :) I'm glad to have some explanation at least. I can't say I agree but I suppose this is hardly the place to dispute the applicability of the banning policy. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 01:04, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- FWIW, in reference to your prior examples, I would have no problem with removing tags or blanking case pages at the request of an editor who was the primary focus of a case, especially if their real identity were widely known. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:11, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Same here. If the person is known, then we sacrifice the limited usefulness of the tag in favor of their privacy. That said, using one for someone that isn't known in the real world is not an evil thing and we need to either change policy, or stop demonizing people who tag. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:12, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- FWIW, in reference to your prior examples, I would have no problem with removing tags or blanking case pages at the request of an editor who was the primary focus of a case, especially if their real identity were widely known. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:11, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks, OR, it's good to feel appreciated. :) I'm glad to have some explanation at least. I can't say I agree but I suppose this is hardly the place to dispute the applicability of the banning policy. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 01:04, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- That Arb notice has a date on it. Does the user have archiving? I didn't check. That is one of the reasons tags are helpful. It isn't about shaming, it just information. Had they used their real name here at Wikipedia (a foolish thing to do, no?) then I'm always for avoiding tags for BLP like reasons. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:05, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- @Mendaliv: First off, thanks for taking an interest in this case; your workshop proposals were very helpful :) On this particular question, it is not an "extraordinary remedy" to put the text of the case behind, at most, two additional clicks. The reason for the ban is, of course, documented in the block log - which is a much better repository of such information than userpage templates, since it's so rarely modified - plus there's a notice on the talk page. These banned-editor tags are a recurring source of dispute and frustration, and tend to encourage people who need to disengage from Wikipedia altogether to instead monitor what's going on with their userpages. @Xaosflux: Sorry, you're right, it would've been better if an arb or clerk had done the deletion in the first place, but CSD admins are fast :) Opabinia regalis (talk) 00:02, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- @BethNaught, DMacks, and Mendaliv: As far as I'm concerned, when someone gets banned we should do what we can to help them disengage. Taking preventative action against non-compliant crawlers and bottom-feeding mirrors is easy enough. Of course it's perfectly fine to reference the material in the page history and compile the on-wiki stuff (without real names and similar details) - I'd suggest an organization modeled on a CCI, checking for unverifiable as well as copied material in live mainspace edits. As for the sock thing, that's been public knowledge for years and we are pretty much agreed that this is just background information. There's no need to tag and template now. @Salvidrim!: Thanks for the pointer. Presumably, if there is a need to restore the case page, those circumstances would also justify restoring the userpage. In any event, it's fairly clear from the page history what the intended reference is. Opabinia regalis (talk) 22:26, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- The case is over. Wikicology is banned. We believe we made the right decision in banning Wikicology, but that is hardly a cause for us to celebrate, and to see comments and edits that come pretty close to gravedancing is distasteful. In addition, those of you with magic admin glasses can tell that there's significant harassment going on; in other words, Wikicology is hardly having a picnic.
Sticking the "banned" banner on his user page is of no use to anyone. Dennis, it's not "just" information and you know it. Anyone who has a need to know who the user is who made this or that edit can click on "contributions" where it says, in plain English, "Miniapolis (talk | contribs | block) blocked Wikicology (talk | contribs) with an expiration time of indefinite (account creation blocked, cannot edit own talk page) (Arbitration enforcement: Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Wikicology)". Now, let's please stop gravedancing and get on with it. Drmies (talk) 00:50, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- What is it with this fetish for blackening user pages with the "banned" template, anyway? It seems sadistic. Good faith editors, even when rightly banned, shouldn't be treated that way. Everyking (talk) 01:41, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- You're welcome to take
{{banned}}
to TfD. —/Mendaliv/2¢/Δ's/ 01:47, 14 May 2016 (UTC)- Several years ago, the template was modified to look like this, to reduce the "this user is evil" impression. It was eventually reverted almost a year later back to how it looks now. Perhaps a discussion on how we could modify the template is in order? Mz7 (talk) 03:31, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- That would be a good idea. Personally, I wouldn't miss it much if it went the way of Banrevert and BannedMeansBanned. Opabinia regalis (talk) 05:11, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Several years ago, the template was modified to look like this, to reduce the "this user is evil" impression. It was eventually reverted almost a year later back to how it looks now. Perhaps a discussion on how we could modify the template is in order? Mz7 (talk) 03:31, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- You're welcome to take
- I take offence to being accused of gravedancing for asking for a category to be added, such that the case does not drop out of the arbitration archives (I see it has now been added, thank you). BethNaught (talk) 06:58, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not exactly in love with the comment by Drmies "Sticking the "banned" banner on his user page is of no use to anyone. Dennis, it's not "just" information and you know it. " as well. It implies I have some agenda or nefarious motives. I am the most uninvolved man in the room re: this case, my observation was about procedure, not the individual. I will chalk it up to poor choice of words, but did feel it was worth mentioning since it had an insulting tone. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 20:09, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- What is it with this fetish for blackening user pages with the "banned" template, anyway? It seems sadistic. Good faith editors, even when rightly banned, shouldn't be treated that way. Everyking (talk) 01:41, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Shame that the blunt instrument of "banning" was used when there were perfectly good alternatives. Wikicology will learn very little about en:WP over the coming year. I hope that he will work on the Yoruba and Igbo wikis. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 02:28, 14 May 2016 (UTC).
- Banned template are nothing but a stupid scarlet letter -- anyone that's wiki savvy knows to grok what an editor is about, you use "User contributions," which would, of course, so the block of a sock. The self righteous altering of other's user pages are just stocks. NE Ent 21:28, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Other the other handle, blanking of case pages is hardly a courtesy for future Wikipedians. Consider, for example, Acknowlege of imperfection -- it says Neither editors nor edits are required to be perfect. That's could be a useful tidbit in the future on ANI, where WP:NOTPERFECT is the standard for admins and WP:CIR for hapless newbies who take a wrong turn and end up there. But I'm not going to find that in the future via wiki-search because the page has been blanked. NE Ent 21:42, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
Care
- Did anyone known to and trusted by the community, or by ArbCom, attempt to make personal contact with Wikicology?
- Did anyone known to and trusted by the community, or by ArbCom, ascertain in which language Wikicology is most comfortable?
- Did the committee ask Wikicology in private whether and how his personal circumstances affected his editing?
Aspects of this difficult case suggest a variety of interpretations, many of which have been proposed in the case pages, not always in the kindest or most dignified of terms. The committee even now seems uncertain (or perhaps divided) in their interpretation of what Wikicology meant to do. I wonder whether a chat over lunch might have yielded insight where thousands of volunteer hours expended in formal hearings and draconian pronouncements failed. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:28, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- The idea that the ArbCom should have had a "chat over lunch" with the subject is amusing if only because it makes so little sense when the various arbitrators and the subject of the arbitration were and are located in at least three continents. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:32, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- @MarkBernstein: Thanks for your comments, but you know perfectly well that we are not going to discuss private correspondence with third parties, or in public. Opabinia regalis (talk) 20:40, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not asking what was said. I’m asking, “did you try?” MarkBernstein (talk) 21:21, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- My guess is that hundreds of volunteers read these pages. That’s hundred hours, easy. The editors who actually participate, in my experience, are likely to spend tens of hours: that’s hundreds, too. From ArbCom campaign discussion, even an easy case consumes tens of hours from each of 10 or 15 arbs. Wikicology has almost 10,000 edits; they're not fluent in English but let that pass and say 10 min/edit; that’s 1666 hours of volunteer work over 2 years. All those AN/Is and RFCs that got us here; again, tens and hundreds of volunteer hours, at minimum. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:21, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Your rhetorical questions are as unanswerable as your private questions. My guess is that you are insinuating that we (either the community or ArbCom) stood by and watched as someone got crushed, Penal Colony-style, in some bureaucratic machine. We are well aware that these cases are about human beings (you can quote me on that), and I think that the criticism we have gotten from others confirms that they think we were too kind or generous. I also think that maybe you should be more active in actual Wikipedia editing so you can see these editors at work, and maybe help them out early in their career, rather than at the end. I'd love to see you at work in WP:AFC or WP:DR; hanging out at ArbCom never made anyone a better person. You can quote me on that too. Drmies (talk) 00:35, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- My guess is that hundreds of volunteers read these pages. That’s hundred hours, easy. The editors who actually participate, in my experience, are likely to spend tens of hours: that’s hundreds, too. From ArbCom campaign discussion, even an easy case consumes tens of hours from each of 10 or 15 arbs. Wikicology has almost 10,000 edits; they're not fluent in English but let that pass and say 10 min/edit; that’s 1666 hours of volunteer work over 2 years. All those AN/Is and RFCs that got us here; again, tens and hundreds of volunteer hours, at minimum. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:21, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
According to Drmies, "hanging out at ArbCom never made anyone a better person". I have been "hanging out" at ArbCom through this case to provide evidence about editing quality that I suspected would not be evident to any Arbitrator without a strong background in chemistry. I have wondered before how ArbCom views the evidence and workshop contributions of non-parties and why there is so little feedback on what is useful and what is unhelpful. Is it an effort to help us become "better" people by staying away from ArbCom? As I said on the PD talk page, I was disappointed to see that Wikicology had been harassed and I was sad that no lesser sanction than a ban seemed practical (I couldn't see one) so I don't believe that I have engaged in grave dancing. I am feeling disrespected / unappreciated, though. EdChem (talk) 12:57, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- EdChem, it's all good. Your efforts are appreciated, and I didn't see any gravedancing from you. We can't always comment on the evidence we receive, and MarkBernstein probably knows this very well, but a little birdie told me that in the Wikology case your sciency contributions were greatly appreciated. As for a better person--look at me and see what all this power has done to me. I can't even give you a proper answer to the question. I will say this: you may feel disrespected, but have you seen what we get to digest, on-wiki and off-wiki, after every decision or non-decision? None of that will make us feel good about ourselves, or make us a better person. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:14, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Well, much thanks to the committee, and sorry to Wikicology, I think you could have 'straightened up, and flew right,' but who knows. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:25, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- EdChem I appreciated it. Being that my chem background is relatively strong but ancient and virtually all IUPAC or common name (or explicitly written), seeing your analyses was like relearning. It's not anyday where I learn (or relearn) something in ArbCom space :) --DHeyward (talk) 16:13, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- @EdChem: Your evidence was quite useful, thank you for presenting it so cogently. If you want to discuss the question of feedback or what makes useful evidence or similar, maybe start a new thread on that? Opabinia regalis (talk) 03:11, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
Arbitration motions regarding extended confirmed protection
There is a trivial typo that you should probably fix: a missing closed-parenthesis at the end of the Expectations section. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:09, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Done NE Ent 22:30, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- 1.Administrators are not permitted to remove and 2.Administrators must not remove Is there some difference in meaning between the two phrases? Was it intentional that they don't both have "are not permitted" or "must not"? Nyttend (talk) 22:21, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Once again ArbCom has slipped into making policy. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 00:04, 16 May 2016 (UTC).
- I don't think it is that bad on this one - the must not's are not "in general" but as related to enforcement actions. — xaosflux Talk 00:12, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
- I think not; I think wording is convoluted specifically because they're trying not to make policy -- it's only limiting the protection in the context of arbitration enforcement / DS. There's nothing in the motion that would preclude the community from changing wp:protect to allow other uses of extended grand poobah editor -- whatever it's called. NE Ent 03:06, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
- I don't think it is that bad on this one - the must not's are not "in general" but as related to enforcement actions. — xaosflux Talk 00:12, 16 May 2016 (UTC)