PFF 2 — Starch. |
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==PP 10 — Revealing personal information== |
==PP 10 — Revealing personal information== |
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I had a little giggle at David Fuchs' declaration that "Restating a principle can't hurt". Isn't that Nina's motto, too.. ? Which suggests to me that if the restating is taken far enough, it can hurt like a bastard. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 20:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC). |
I had a little giggle at David Fuchs' declaration that "Restating a principle can't hurt". Isn't that Nina's motto, too.. ? Which suggests to me that if the restating is taken far enough, it can hurt like a bastard. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 20:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC). |
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==PFF 2—Persistent disruption== |
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@Cavalry: Yes, IMO you do need the word "miserable" in there; it's well chosen. It expresses the state of mind of the unfortunate editors who work, with little enough thanks, to defend Wikipedia against persistent misuse and disruption. (Hello, MONGO, are you there?) A lot of misery has been in play while those 21 archives were produced, and it's surely not necessary to remove all words with any hint of feeling in them from the FoF's. If you'll all pardon my saying so, there's enough starch and lawyerspeak in the arbcom decisions anyway. [[User:Bishonen|Bishonen]] | [[User talk:Bishonen|talk]] 21:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC). |
Revision as of 21:37, 11 February 2011
Main case page (Talk) — Evidence (Talk) — Workshop (Talk) — Proposed decision (Talk) Case clerks: AGK (Talk) & X! (Talk) Drafting arbitrators: Newyorkbrad (Talk) & SirFozzie (Talk) |
Arbitrators active on this case
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Bishzilla Waited for Godot. Godot arrived on 10 February 2011. No, that was only the Godking. Bishzilla still waiting for Co-Founder. |
Waiting for Godot
Oh template template template template template template template. Get on with it already. Please. Bishonen | talk 00:10, 9 February 2011 (UTC).
- No need to send the 'Zilla, we are on time, and on target :) SirFozzie (talk) 00:31, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Will the proposed decision be posted at the workshop first? Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:38, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- At this point, it looks to be going straight to the PD page. SirFozzie (talk) 02:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Why? Are there not enough (or too many) parties to comment on the proposals before they formally come here...or is it something else? Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- It depends on the case. While I speak only for myself (and not for the other arbs) Usually, when things are brought to the workshop level, it's not only to gauge the community's reaction to what could be a complicated decision, it's to get valuable input on whether the issue the parties see "match up" with what the issues the arbitrators see. This case is not only relatively straight-forward, I think in general, it's the sense of the drafting arbitrators and the community that things "match-up". Things have gotten relatively messy, discussion wise, over the last week, and we're taking into account the thoughts of parties above (and elsewhere) that it's about time to wrap things up. SirFozzie (talk) 02:37, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Why? Are there not enough (or too many) parties to comment on the proposals before they formally come here...or is it something else? Ncmvocalist (talk) 02:28, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- At this point, it looks to be going straight to the PD page. SirFozzie (talk) 02:14, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Will the proposed decision be posted at the workshop first? Ncmvocalist (talk) 01:38, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
The proposed decision will be posted this evening. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:40, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thank you for your answers (which have also answered the next questions I was going to ask). Ncmvocalist (talk) 15:43, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm done. I thought I was doing too well, and I was right - I have reached the end of my tether; I am taking these pages off my watchlist. LessHeard vanU (talk) 21:16, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
PFoF 3 - NinaGreen
Just a minor grammatical correction: "NinaGreen ... has engaged in ... repeated false ... failure to improve ..." – that should be "failed" as part of a list of past participles. --RexxS (talk) 14:49, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- No, it's correct the way it is. The listed behaviours are examples of what she "has engaged in", and aren't required to use parallel grammatical construction. "NinaGreen ... has engaged in a persistent pattern of disruptive behavior, including (list of behaviours)." Tom Reedy (talk) 15:51, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- I'm not sure about this. I thought I wrote it as a series of noun phrases: "advocacy, ... monopolization, ... allegations, ... failure, ... behavior." I will, however, defer to any consensus that may emerge on this important matter. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:38, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- As the local card-carrying expert on Bad Grammar, I hereby opine that "repeated false allegations" is syntactically ambiguous, allowing both a reading where "repeated" is an adjective modifying "allegations" and one where "repeated" is a finite verb and "allegations" its object, but that the first of these readings is by far the more plausible from the context, making NYB's version grammatically coherent. You don't really want me to start explaining the analysis of why the nominal interpretation wins out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:47, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. For the record, though, I didn't actually write the sentence in question; the decision was drafted for me by Christopher Marlowe. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:50, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Tsk tsk. Poor Poet-Arb, that would be thought our chief. Now we understand why no eye-witness has come forward who has ever actually seen you writing a decision. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:04, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Ah I see now! You parsed the fragment as:
- ... has engaged in a persistent pattern of disruptive behavior, including [1] advocacy rather than neutral editing, misuse and extreme monopolization of talkpages to the point of rendering them useless, [2] repeated false and unsupported allegations against fellow editors, [3] failure to improve her behavior after having been repeatedly counseled in the past, and [4] continued disruptive behavior ...
- making each of the past participles purely adjectival. Whereas I parsed it as:
- has [1] engaged in a persistent pattern of disruptive behavior, including advocacy rather than neutral editing, misuse and extreme monopolization of talkpages to the point of rendering them useless, [2] repeated false and unsupported allegations against fellow editors, [3] failure[failed] to improve her behavior after having been repeatedly counseled in the past, and [4] continued disruptive behavior ...
- making each of the participles the past tense after the shared auxiliary 'has'. Academics who are expert in analysing Brad's handwriting have commented that he often wrote a ligature to represent '-ed' in such a way that it resembled '-ure', so I can see how it was easy for you to make that mistake. But as you know, Wilson Knight in Wheel of Fire makes the exact point that I do. As my contention is the only one to be backed up by a reliable source, I expect that you'll be willing to relegate your reading to that of a FRINGE theory per policy. --RexxS (talk) 16:43, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
He is listing noun phrases, not verb phrases. The phrase "has ... including advocacy rather than neutral editing" is nonsensical, and the "including" can only refer back to the "persistent pattern of disruptive behavior".To read it your way would require semi-colons instead of commas. Tom Reedy (talk) 18:07, 10 February 2011 (UTC)- And for the record I parsed it as:
- ... has engaged in a persistent pattern of disruptive behavior, including [1] advocacy rather than neutral editing, [2] misuse and extreme monopolization of talkpages to the point of rendering them useless, [3] repeated false and unsupported allegations against fellow editors, [4] failure to improve her behavior after having been repeatedly counseled in the past, and [5] continued disruptive behavior ... Tom Reedy (talk) 18:12, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- And for the record I parsed it as:
- Your [1] should really be [1] and [2], but other than that you make some valid points.
- You know, I bet they aren't having nearly as much fun on the talkpage of that other case that I'm not drafting. :P Newyorkbrad (talk) 16:53, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Ah I see now! You parsed the fragment as:
- Tsk tsk. Poor Poet-Arb, that would be thought our chief. Now we understand why no eye-witness has come forward who has ever actually seen you writing a decision. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:04, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- Thanks. For the record, though, I didn't actually write the sentence in question; the decision was drafted for me by Christopher Marlowe. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:50, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
- As the local card-carrying expert on Bad Grammar, I hereby opine that "repeated false allegations" is syntactically ambiguous, allowing both a reading where "repeated" is an adjective modifying "allegations" and one where "repeated" is a finite verb and "allegations" its object, but that the first of these readings is by far the more plausible from the context, making NYB's version grammatically coherent. You don't really want me to start explaining the analysis of why the nominal interpretation wins out. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:47, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
PP 11 - Review of community sanctions
As Luke says, it's probably too easy for any party to cry "unfair", and then there's no objective criterion to measure by. How about something like:
- "... such as a finding that (1) some aspect of the community discussion fell short of usual standards, ..." ?
Then at least you can rely on a collective consensus about what the usual standards are (adequate discussion time, clear consensus to sanction, etc.). It's not a perfect recipe, but might be a starting point to improve on. --RexxS (talk) 00:12, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- I think its implied that Arbcom is the one that will decide its unfair. Any party can cry unfair all they want, but if it wasn't then their review gets rejected like any other case. 198.161.174.222 (talk) 18:08, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
- Yes, I agree that it's too easy. We are likely to reverse (or freshly reconsider) alleged community bans that had almost no input, or where the participants were canvassed, or where the discussion was closed too quickly. It seems that what's NYB meant to capture, but this kind of shortcoming is a different thing than unfairness. Sure, ArbCom decides what "unfairness" means, but we should also let appellees know what we're actually looking for in appeals.
- I think your proposed alternative is sufficiently unlawyerly; will ask Brad. Cool Hand Luke 20:23, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
PP 10 — Revealing personal information
I had a little giggle at David Fuchs' declaration that "Restating a principle can't hurt". Isn't that Nina's motto, too.. ? Which suggests to me that if the restating is taken far enough, it can hurt like a bastard. Bishonen | talk 20:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC).
PFF 2—Persistent disruption
@Cavalry: Yes, IMO you do need the word "miserable" in there; it's well chosen. It expresses the state of mind of the unfortunate editors who work, with little enough thanks, to defend Wikipedia against persistent misuse and disruption. (Hello, MONGO, are you there?) A lot of misery has been in play while those 21 archives were produced, and it's surely not necessary to remove all words with any hint of feeling in them from the FoF's. If you'll all pardon my saying so, there's enough starch and lawyerspeak in the arbcom decisions anyway. Bishonen | talk 21:37, 11 February 2011 (UTC).