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:::::My belief in the fairness of the arbcom (collectively) is being strained, I think understandably. [[User:CyrilleDunant|CyrilleDunant]] ([[User talk:CyrilleDunant|talk]]) 06:06, 5 June 2019 (UTC) |
:::::My belief in the fairness of the arbcom (collectively) is being strained, I think understandably. [[User:CyrilleDunant|CyrilleDunant]] ([[User talk:CyrilleDunant|talk]]) 06:06, 5 June 2019 (UTC) |
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{{ping|Levivich}} You can add to your list of oddities that apparently whether Rama was in fact justified or not in thinking that this deletion was part of a pattern of harassment is apparently completely irrelevant. (FYI, people, you don't need to be wanting to harass, or even being aware of doing it, merely that you not notice that you are making the same point as a very large number of people at once, overwhelming your victim. That doesn't make you a harasser, but should make you stop and think). And in fact, this whole sad arbcom started with DeltaQuad accidentally canvassing support against Rama [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:DeltaQuad/Rama_MMS_list&diff=prev&oldid=895217174]. (I insist on accidentally, I sincerely don't think that was their intention, but it's a very good example of how you can participate in pile-ups accidentally). |
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== Comment by Mkdw == |
== Comment by Mkdw == |
Revision as of 09:04, 5 June 2019
Case clerk: TBD Drafting arbitrator: TBD
Wikipedia Arbitration |
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Track related changes |
Behaviour on this page: Arbitration case pages exist to assist the Arbitration Committee in arriving at a fair, well-informed decision. You are required to act with appropriate decorum during this case. While grievances must often be aired during a case, you are expected to air them without being rude or hostile, and to respond calmly to allegations against you. Accusations of misbehaviour posted in this case must be proven with clear evidence (and otherwise not made at all). Editors who conduct themselves inappropriately during a case may be sanctioned by an arbitrator, clerk, or functionary, without further warning, by being banned from further participation in the case, or being blocked altogether. Personal attacks against other users, including arbitrators or the clerks, will be met with sanctions. Behavior during a case may also be considered by the committee in arriving at a final decision.
Comments by Winged Blades of Godric
In light of Joe's wikibreak, shall we have some delay as to the commencement of this phase? Regards, ∯WBGconverse 16:31, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- @Winged Blades of Godric: Joe has said that he retains some internet access and expects to post a PD, but that it may well not be today. GoldenRing (talk) 17:38, 21 May 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. ∯WBGconverse 11:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- The draft should be published in the early part of next week. It has been a busy week for the committee and I think drafts need putting out in a state fit for voting or not at all. AGK ■ 21:33, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
- LC's edit made this re-pop on my watch-list and I concur with him. Are we (yet again) going to see a date-shift? ∯WBGconverse 11:23, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
- The draft should be published in the early part of next week. It has been a busy week for the committee and I think drafts need putting out in a state fit for voting or not at all. AGK ■ 21:33, 23 May 2019 (UTC)
- Thanks. ∯WBGconverse 11:35, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
- @AGK: -- To repeat V93's comment over a quasi-similar case :-
I would urge the committee to examine all of Andrevan's actions, even if they are older than usual. There is a catch-22 situation with users who have low levels of activity. Single incidents cannot be reported because they are single incidents; patterns of bad behavior cannot be reported because the edits establishing a pattern stretch occur over a lengthy period of time, and may be considered "stale"
.- I think the stuff about his unbecoming conduct, as determined by the previous User-RFC and TBan, shall go in the PD as a FOF. You need to formulate the 30-admin-action-stuff as a justification for including the former point (which would have been normally considered stale) and carefully enough, so as to avoid sending a message that such minimal activity levels are frowned upon (by the Committee). ∯WBGconverse 19:11, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
- I fail to see, as to how the proposal tars all semi inactive admins with any brush. It is a mere statement of fact, whose inclusion_rationale has been very well documented by SilkTork. ~ Winged BladesGodric 19:55, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Comments by Leaky caldron
Not a good look, persistently missing targets without providing a reason or revised date. Leaky caldron (talk) 11:07, 30 May 2019 (UTC)
I do not think it is acceptable that one of the drafting members has gone off to dig holes in a field and the other is silent. I suggest when it comes to an application for a further term they, and maybe the rest of Arcom., have dug themselves into a hole. You seem to ignore the fact that there is a guy waiting to hear his future as as Admin. Unlike revenge, justice is a dish best not served cold. Being busy doesn't come close to a justifiable reason for having the wrong drafters for this case. Leaky caldron (talk) 17:36, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- The PD date was extended last week to May 28 due to Joe's unforeseen absence. A few days have elapsed from the revised deadline and we are looking into whether the PDs will be posted soon or if we need to swap people in for drafting. We are well aware of the fact the case is in process and people are waiting. Being busy or having unforeseen events is a justifiable reason for not being able to meet a deadline. Mkdw talk 19:36, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- I understand your frustration, but I think the characterization of Joe's real life job as '(going) off to dig holes in a field' as condescending and rather rude. I'm sure you wouldn't like to have one of us dismiss your job in such a manner, so let's not do that to an arb simply because he's an easy target. As Mkdw said, we're aware of the drafting situation, and while we're not pleased, the community in its wisdom decided to decrease the number of warm bodies available to do this work, so we're doing what we can as we can. We're not ignoring anything. We'll update everyone as soon as possible. Katietalk 20:43, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- I don't really "care" what you think. I "think" this case is being handled in a wholly inept and slipshod fashion. If the cap fits, wear it. Instead of lecturing me on civility can I suggests you step into the drafting hole left by Joe? I am sure you have been well aware of his planned absence for over 2 weeks. The fact is that, as pointed out, there are too many of you, not too few. Leaky caldron (talk) 07:17, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Comments by Pldx1
- According to [], the proposed decision was due 21 May 2019. And now, ten days later, we have an interesting case: should Arbcom be trouted --as a body-- for not applying WP:ADMINACCT to herself and explain why a full working set of drafting arbitrators has not been maintained ? Pldx1 (talk) 09:27, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- We have asked for an update from the drafting arbitrators. Hopefully we will get an update soon. Usually the committee asks for volunteers to draft the case. I know lately, it has been particularly busy with other case requests, ARCAs, and appeals. As a separate note, the relevant policy is WP:ARBCOND. WP:ADMINACCT is relevant to administrators. While arbitrators are typically also administrators, drafting a case is not a function of being an administrator, but rather being an arbitrator. Mkdw talk 17:08, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- According to Arbitrator Opabinia regalis:
the debate surrounding this article and the community's treatment of it did bring the project into disrepute
. Great assertion. This seems to contradict:the scope of this case is the administrative conduct of User:Rama. Therefore, anything to do with the content dispute shall be omitted from this case
. But let us follow the Greats and remember that:
- - [The first version] of the article asserted that the subject
graduated from the University of Tennessee with a PhD in chemistry in 2014
... and sourced this assertion to an article centered onTennessee softball co-head coach Karen Weekly
, article that only names C.P., without saying anything more. This version was retired following a first AfD procedure. - - [The second version ] of the article was displaying a reference list of 25 items, that were commented at [AfD2]. The documents from the Navy (7,8) don't ever mention Phelps. The ORNL documents about Te237 discovery (10,13,15,16) don't ever mention Phelps, and she is not on the photo of the team of 50 credited of the work at ORNL. The story is then enriched by 11 PR docs emitted in a PR context (75th anniversary, YMCA, outreach) 14,18,19,06,11,22,21,20,24,23,25 where Phelps is only one of the many... and the focus is not Te297. In other word, that was a fake reference list, in the [Wikicology] style. Page numbers (or time for a video) were never given: characteristic behavior. This version was retired following a second AfD procedure.
- - The low quality of this article can be explained by various reasons, laziness+inventiveness being the most probable. But instead of recognizing this low quality, and finding better facts and better sources, the keep !voters have chosen to launch a political campaign, inside and outside Wikipedia. This was the basis of Rama's action, who summarized his rationales at his [Rama, Bullying section] by
Selectively enforcing the rules in a particularly stringent manner
...is dysfunctional
.... andhas obvious racist and sexist connotations
. - - Suggesting that different rules should be applied to different persons, is only suggesting that biographies of women in STEM could be of lower quality. Such a suggestion would be a strong cause of disrepute. Indeed !
- End of the digression. Arbitrator Opabinia regalis should perhaps recenter the rationales she uses, and remain focused on the scope of the case, i.e.
the administrative conduct of User:Rama
. Beware ofIf the scope is overran, clerks will remove the content
! Pldx1 (talk) 19:08, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
Comments by Beeblebrox
It seems to me that if Joe had to take an unscheduled wikibreak, he should simply be replaced as drafting arb. I know real life happens sometimes, but as stated above it is unfair to the parties, in particular to Rama, to just leave this hanging for weeks. The workshop closed two weeks ago and the committee has had all evidence presented by three weeks ago. our last comment from the remaining drafting arb was over one week ago. For a minute there it looked like this iteration of the committee was going to do better in these types of situations. I understand wanting to get it right but it simply shouldn't take this long to shuffle the chairs a bit and have a different arb step in and complete the PD with AGK. Beeblebrox (talk) 18:01, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- Hi, @Beeblebrox: the committee is working on solving the issue MKDW and Katie responded to some of these concerns above. Regards, --Cameron11598 (Talk) 22:28, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
@SilkTork: I understand the distinction you are trying to make, but I thin you are mistaken. I am a huge supporter of IAR and am very aware of how many times admins do so without explicitly saying so, but I don't thin it applies in this case. The reason is that Rama did not elect to ignore a rule, he elected to ignore consensus. A consensus he had to know existed by his own account. Wikipedia:Ignore consensus is a redlink for a reason. (oh boy, am I ever relieved that it really is a redlink) Beeblebrox (talk) 15:51, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- If Rama had explained what they were doing, and maintained a calm and reasonable demeanour in response to concerns raised at the deletion, I don't think we would be here now. I don't think we should be in the business of desysopping an admin who performs an action they genuinely feel is in the best interest of the project, and I wonder what message that sends out. However, an admin who has deliberately avoided raising the matter with the appropriate admin before reversing them, and who claims to be threatened and bullied by those who legitimately raise concern, and then presents themselves as being antagonistic to the community and the community's rules and procedures, is not best suited to remain an admin. So it's not for the use of the admin tool in undeleting the article, but for all that surrounds that act both before and during this case, that I feel is the appropriate reason for desysopping. But having said my piece, I'm not going to argue anyone else into accepting it. I can see there are other ways of interpreting this case, and that's why it is useful to have a range of individuals on the committee. SilkTork (talk) 16:05, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Comments by Levivich
Who thinks it would be a bad idea if we were to, tomorrow, hold elections and add 10 more arbs to the panel to help shoulder the burden? Because I can think of 10 admin off the top of my head who I would vote for, and this isn't the only delay; we have several ARCAs that have been open for over a month. The firearms thing I think took two months? Why not have more hands to help? – Levivich 22:31, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- @Iridescent: A good point, but one that can be ameliorated by using panels, like the US federal court system does. You don't need all 30 arbs to weigh in on everything. Form panels of 3 or 5 or 10 to handle specific workflows, and have a deep bench from which to draw, so that volunteers can freely go active/inactive, and we still have a sufficiently-large pool of available talent. (Clerks could help form those panels.) You're on my short list of 10 BTW :-) – Levivich 23:02, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
I just want to comment that "I still think I was right, but I wouldn't do it again", is a perfectly acceptable response to wrongdoing. We cannot/should not demand that a person agree they were wrong, or else be desysoped. That regulates thought rather than action. Nor should we say, "Well, if he thinks he was right, it means he might do it again." Again, that regulates thought rather than action. We are talking about one bad IAR here, and at most, two bad admin actions in 10 years. Nobody should be seriously punished for such limited transgression. As for the during-arbitration-behavior, I agree with OR about not "counting" it, and I note that far worse language over on the Polish case request resulted in only a warning. If an admonishment is not enough, I hope the committee can find something in between admonishment and desysop. (Like maybe a restriction on undeletion.) – Levivich 00:13, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
Sorry, but this just bothers me so.
- Can you imagine judging somebody for something they did ten years ago in any other context? Who cares how many edits transpired–it's ten years. I mean, we are not the same people we were ten years ago. Imagine if I broke the printer, then never used the printer, and broke it again in ten years, and somebody said, "that's it, you can't use the printer anymore". If I borrowed your car and crashed it, and then borrowed it again 3 times a year for ten years and didn't crash it, and then crashed it again, it'd be nuts to conclude from that that I cannot drive a car. All these explanations-by-analogy I've read justifying looking at an action from ten years ago seem totally unrealistic to me; I cannot wrap my mind around it. Can you imagine a workplace performance evaluation based on something that happened 10 years ago? In most legal jurisdictions, you can't even admit evidence of a criminal conviction if it's ten years old. Like nowhere else in civilized society would we hold two transgressions in 10 years against anyone. Nowhere.
- Then there's desysoping someone for undeleting a page one time. How can that even be on the table as a sanction, nevermind receiving five votes? Rama didn't even block a user, or delete a page, he undeleted a page. So easy to fix! So harmless! Look, when GoldenRing (sorry to use you as an example, GR) deleted a page and said it was a DS sanction, nobody considered any sanctions, and that deletion was also against consensus as evidenced by a DRV. I can easily agree that a deletion against consensus in that situation isn't a desysopable offense, but I cannot wrap my mind around why one undeletion against consensus would be a desysopable offense.
- It's just patently unfair to judge an IAR action as being "incorrect", while prohibiting the defendant from presenting evidence that shows that it was correct. It's like some arbitrators' approach in this case was "it was a bad IAR and we don't want to hear anything otherwise". That just doesn't seem like a fair hearing. I can't wrap my head around that one, either–doesn't this strike you (the arbs) as unfair? Why not? If you judge the IAR incorrect, then how would Rama show that the IAR was justified, even in theory? What kind of evidence would have hypothetically convinced you that the IAR was justified?
- "I won't do it again" isn't good enough here–why not? Even if it isn't good enough, why not consider outright preventing Rama from undeleting anything? There is a perfectly acceptable lesser sanction available to Arbcom–can't wrap my mind around why you're not taking Door #2 here instead of a desysop.
- If you're not taking the bit away for "one bad IAR", if you're not taking the bit away based on any evaluation of content, if you're not taking the bit away based on statements made during the arbitration, then what is the basis of your decision to take the bit away? What is the potential harm you are stopping by using such a drastic sanction, which no other sanction would prevent? I really hope some of the Arbs change their mind. Barring that, I hope somebody writes an explanation that least explains what exactly it was that Rama did that was so bad that the bit must be taken away, because the current proposed decision doesn't do that, at least not for me. I'll shut up now, promise. – Levivich 06:51, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment by Iridescent
@Levivich, because counter-intuitively the more arbs there are, the longer work takes to be done, which is why the number of arbs was reduced in the first place. Because so much of the committee's work takes place on mailing lists, if every member needs to read through the responses of 30 people to every comment instead of the responses of 10 people, it means the arbs are literally spending hours every day checking their messages—my "Inbox (644 new messages)" screenshot isn't doctored in any way—and consequently have less time to engage on-wiki. ‑ Iridescent 22:55, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
- No, that wouldn't work; we tried that in the past with such initiatives as the Ban Appeals Group, a designated arb taking turns to pre-moderate incoming messages, etc, and all that happens is that people who are dissatisfied with the decision of the sub-group (and there's always someone unhappy with any decision) appeal to the full committee so you end up doubling the workload.
- Because by necessity so much takes place in secret, until you've been there one really can't appreciate just how much of Arbcom's work goes on behind the scenes. As I understand it things aren't as bad as they used to be now the WMF have taken over some functions directly, but even now I'd imagine any reasonably conscientious arb is spending at least an hour per day just reviewing the torrent of emails, checking recent changes on all the arbitration pages (of which there are hundreds, albeit mostly dormant and archived), monitoring AN, ANI and the Village Pumps, and checking all recent changes on Arbwiki. Every additional editor you add to that pile is another editor you're taking away from doing anything actually useful, in addition to the additional work that editor generates for the other arbs. (Even if you do have subgroups, all the non-members of the subgroups still need to be appraised and offer feedback on what the subgroup is doing.) If we really need to retain a single all-encompassing committee, the optimum size would probably be between five and seven; the delays you're complaining about are an artefact of the committee being too large, not too small. ‑ Iridescent 23:26, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
What Alanscottwalker said. IAR is "If a rule prevents you from improving Wikipedia, ignore it", not "do whatever you want"; the onus on anyone invoking it is to demonstrate why invoking it is necessary to improve Wikipedia. Breaching policy and invoking IAR is a last resort, not a first port of call; the intent behind IAR is for such situations as "this image isn't clear at the default size so I'll make it larger even though that breaches the Manual of Style", not "Admins are free to disregard WP:ADMINACCT if they don't feel like explaining". ‑ Iridescent 16:35, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment by Pppery
@Iridescent and Levivich: May I suggest that you move your discussion about the size of the Arbitration Committee to Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee or some other more appropriate place? * Pppery * it has begun... 23:36, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
Update
A PD is being worked on at the moment. It is hoped to have it ready soon. SilkTork (talk) 13:03, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment by Sitush
@AGK: The PD FOF #2 refers to Rama first becoming aware of the deletion through a press story but Rama has been inconsistent about this, claiming at one point that they first became aware through a Twitter feed that subsequently went private. They were prepared to disclose the details but not on-wiki. - Sitush (talk) 19:22, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
- Thank you. I don't think that changes anything, but I appreciate your drawing my attention to that diff. AGK ■ 19:53, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Comments by Cryptic
Proposed FOF#1 states (or at least heavily implies) that there were two DRVs on 29 April when Rama restored the article. The second DRV (Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2019 May 1, linked as "2") didn't open until May 1 and wasn't closed until May 8. —Cryptic 19:44, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
Comments by Amakuru
Irrespective of the other aspects of this case, I fully agree with Silktork's oppose on the wording of Principle #6 (IAR). IAR is not just a policy, but one of the five pillars, and it is vital to its functioning that it not be qualified by a necessity of "emergencies" or "unanticipated situations". That's not to say IAR is a carte blanche for anyone to do anything they want against the policies, and community consensus can always deem retrospectively that a particular case was not a valid application of the principle. But the important thing is that each case is assessed on its own merits. I would urge the Committee not to pass this particular principle because it represents a change to community norms, which should only happen via an RFC. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 08:43, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Alanscottwalker: @SoWhy: I suspect we're more or less on the same page here. There's no doubt that IAR is to be taken alongside WP:CON and all the other norms that make the community function. There's also little doubt that the particular invocation of IAR under discussion here was not a justified one (albeit that I accept Rama's assertion that they invoked it in good faith). There's nothing wrong with #6 as a general observation on the way things typically work. But I just don't want us to end up in a situation down the line, where people argue that IAR can't be invoked for a given case because ArbCom has pronounced here that it may only be used under circumstances X, Y and Z. I'm not sure the IAR observation is particularly necessary for the outcome of this case and it risks opening up a future can of worms. Thanks — Amakuru (talk) 20:15, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Comments by Alanscottwalker
The implication of Amakuru's sentiment is wrong, IAR has never been the only pillar of the community. Nor is it, as a matter of community norm, nearly as important as, and as normalized as, Discussion. Perhaps some people are confused by only reading IAR, but only reading IAR makes no logical nor practical sense. IAR is not Ignore Other Editors (WP:IOE). Alanscottwalker (talk) 16:24, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Rama's judgement was not poor, it was egregiously poor: 1) They used a BLP as a football. 2) They have done nothing but bring the project into disrepute. 3) They usurped editorial decision making by use of tools not given them for usurping editorial decision making, thereby abusing power. 4) They breached multiple community norms, around the central working principles of the project: discussion, and assuming bad faith. 5) They have cast aspersions in deed and in word on editors who are unequivocally committed to diversity of coverage (just look to editors' editing history). 6) Assuming they did not just imagine the alleged "emergency", which I gather is where those who claim Rama's judgement was just 'poor' are, Rama has an extreme and unsupportable view of what an emergency is (it's just not an emergency not to have an article on Wikipedia).
It makes a mockery of IAR and the rest of the pillars, and indeed all the PAGs, to say editorial content decisions are 'rules'. Deletion is an editorial content decision. Editorial decisions are decisions of content editors (decisions which admins cannot make, without abuse of power), they are not rules. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:58, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
- Also, it is unseemly (and an indication of untrustworthiness) if an administrator believes: 'you will/should no longer be an administrator', or 'let Arbcom and RfA decide, if you should be an administrator' are 'threats': Such an administrator denigrates the very concept of 'threat', or has no trustworthy understanding of what a threat is. Becoming not a Wikipedia administrator is, as they say, just 'no big deal', especially, where what one seems to want to do is make content edits, and not univivolved admin actions. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:24, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
Rama: You still don't get it. It has not been "construed it as some sort of power-grab". It has been construed as an illegitimate exercise of permissions, thus an 'abuse of power'. It matters not whatever you think you were trying to grab, in many ways it's worse if you are negligent, actually, because negligence is likely to repeat. But really, if you don't understand that you misused power beyond what content editors are afforded, there is little point in you being an administrator. Not only that, but than you had the unmitigated gall to cast aspersions (aka, lies) about the people who criticized your actions in the comments linked by Mkdw. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:08, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment by SoWhy
In addition to what Alanscottwalker and Iridescent correctly noted, one has to remember while IAR is one of the pillars, so is the one that says (among other things) Seek consensus, avoid edit wars, and never disrupt Wikipedia to illustrate a point. Unlike Amakuru, I thus don't see any problems with proposed principle #6. It merely repeats what has been consensus for as long as I have been an editor (and most likely longer), i.e. that IAR is not a carte blanche you can use whenever you feel like ignoring what others think. There is a reason the page Wikipedia:What "Ignore all rules" means and especially the WP:NOTIAR subsection have been in existence for more than a decade. Regards SoWhy 17:09, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Regarding proposed FoF #5 (Casting aspersions): While I understand the hesitance of using an editor's behavior during a stressful proceeding against them, I urge the Committee to remember that due to the unique circumstances of Rama's actions, most behavioral evidence has to be Case-related and thus should not be disregarded just because of that. If an editor acts in a problematic way and a Case request is quickly started, it stands to reason that most behavioral problems will only be seen during the Case. That does not make these statements less problematic though. Rama has from the beginning [1] been insinuating that the deletion of Phelps' article happened because of some grand conspiracy against women and minorities, something they have followed up on the article's talk page and ANI before becoming more explicit in their aspersions during this Case. So their behavior during this Case was merely a continuance of their pre-Case behavior and thus should be considered as well. On a side note, admins are often confronted with stressful situations, so how one handles the stress of a ArbCom Case is imho indicative of how they will handle other admin situations. Regards SoWhy 09:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
@Opabinia regalis: I think your comment re. desysop sounds as if you are discussing the merits of the article Rama restored in justifying your position, something you should probably be avoid. Rama's actions should not be considered differently based on whether he restored Phelps' article or one, say, about a far-right, nationalist racist with the IQ of a banana. Restoring an article based on what you believe is right or wrong is always a problem, not just when the existence of the article is clearly unwanted. Also, as KrakatoaKatie correctly notes: As bad as Rama's conduct has been, the worse part is that Rama does not seem to understand why it was a problem. One cannot assume that this was an "isolated error of judgment made in good faith" if the erring user keeps insisting that they acted correctly. Even those diffs you cite in Rama's favor do not inspire confidence. Yes, they claim they won't do it again, but at the same time repeat that they were right to do so and cast aspersions on those critical of said actions while doing so ("while simultaneously being obviously right because of WP:IAR, and many of my detractors arguably fall under WP:LW for invoking petty considerations to hinder diversity"). As one of those "detractors" who is very much in favor of diversity, I don't think that is behavior that inspires confidence that Rama actually understood why this Case was opened. Regards SoWhy 10:14, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment by Newyorkbrad
Just FYI for those arbitrators and others who disagree with the proposed "IAR" principle, no sitting arbitrator should be blamed for the proposal or its wording. It is taken verbatim from a principle I drafted last year in the Fred Bauder case, which was passed unanimously in that case without any disagreement or discussion. Interestingly, this isn't the first time that a principle that was uncontroversial in one case was then questioned or even rejected a few months later in another.
For what it's worth, I generally agree with Opabinia regalis's views on the merits of this case. Newyorkbrad (talk) 15:42, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
Facepalm I noticed that about another principle borrowed from the same case, and still overlooked the IAR one... Opabinia regalis (talk) 04:40, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment by CyrilleDunant
Things we've learnt
- It's official policy in wikipedia that pile-ups are fine: if an editor finds themselves threatened and insulted at once by a large number of other editors, it's their damn fault for not immediately falling in line.
- It's official policy of the arbcom that scope is a flexible thing, to be used only to indict: whether Rama or not was right is outside the scope, but that they did not (of course, they did, but who's counting) say they were wrong is good enough to vote for a desysop.
- Comments of the form 'do x or else I(and/or my friends) will do y to hurt you' are not threats, they are advice.
- That a contributor (not Rama) can declare that their behaviour would be construed as stalking/vandalism but that they're doing it for the good (they think) of the encyclopedia, and no-one flags that up: it's also, apparently, perfectly normal. It is, to be fair, Out of scope...
- That it's official policy that if the right people complain, an arbcom can be convened in two hours, with no other attempts at mediation. And then, based on only the accused being stressed and angry during the arbcom, you can get a conviction. (remember that the contentious page was restored, and no edit warring occurred, no vandalism, nothing).
I'm disappointed. CyrilleDunant (talk) 08:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Mkdw: I'm not too sure how asking Rama whether they still believe in hindsight that undeleting the page should not have been done can be construed to not be a leading question to begin with. Rama's linked statement is pretty unambiguous that way. Maybe you could try asking them plainly what you want to know? Maybe you could tell us what you think the statement means, and then you and Rama can establish what they wanted to say in the first place.CyrilleDunant (talk) 19:49, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- @CyrilleDunant: I did ask Rama plainly and directly what I wanted to know. A lot can change during an arbitration case and I personally wanted to know if Rama still stands by their original statement or if their opinion has changed over the course of the case. There is no ambiguity about whether my question relates directly to the decision I am being asked to make with respect to the proposed decisions posted. The statement was said before the case and during the case request process which serves a very difference purpose. If you are implying I was disingenuously leading Rama along a line of questioning to trap them into a specific response, you are very mistaken. Mkdw talk 20:30, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you think I am implying anything. I am saying that the question you asked was leading. The question was leading because Rama is getting desysopped for having undeleted a page. They stated they would not have done so in hindsight. You therefore plainly asked 'you said you regretted doing the action which is getting you punished, do you still regret it?'
- @CyrilleDunant: I did ask Rama plainly and directly what I wanted to know. A lot can change during an arbitration case and I personally wanted to know if Rama still stands by their original statement or if their opinion has changed over the course of the case. There is no ambiguity about whether my question relates directly to the decision I am being asked to make with respect to the proposed decisions posted. The statement was said before the case and during the case request process which serves a very difference purpose. If you are implying I was disingenuously leading Rama along a line of questioning to trap them into a specific response, you are very mistaken. Mkdw talk 20:30, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- What I'm not saying, however, is that you meant it that way. I cannot know that.
- I know I don't know what you want to know, and I also know Rama doesn't know what you want to know. According to the current vote tally, Rama is getting desysopped anyway, so you're asking a leading question in a situation where Rama cannot in any case benefit, no matter their answer. CyrilleDunant (talk) 21:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- I did not ask my question based upon the assumption desysop is a foregone conclusion. I have to proceed and conduct myself during this case based upon my own line of thinking and reach my own conclusions. If this were simply the case, voting would cease once each proposed remedy reached a majority. We do not run cases this way and it is incumbent on each member of the committee to vote their conscious regardless of the likelihood of any outcome. It is expressly one of the main reasons we have the number of members of the committee to hopefully provide a diverse range of views and in this case Rama's statement made a difference to me. As one of the few dissenting opinions against desysop, I think my comments are more important than ever to indicate the decision was not unanimous based upon a first-past-the-post voting system. So again, if you think my question was leading in an attempt to rub in the reality of a pending outcome, I strongly disagree your categorization and implication. In fact, I think it implies a significant amount of bad faith on my part. Mkdw talk 00:37, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- I did not imply bad faith. I quite clearly stated that the question was leading. I also recognise, accept, believe, that you asked the question in good faith. these things are not at odds: they merely mean that the formulation was unclear.
- I did not ask my question based upon the assumption desysop is a foregone conclusion. I have to proceed and conduct myself during this case based upon my own line of thinking and reach my own conclusions. If this were simply the case, voting would cease once each proposed remedy reached a majority. We do not run cases this way and it is incumbent on each member of the committee to vote their conscious regardless of the likelihood of any outcome. It is expressly one of the main reasons we have the number of members of the committee to hopefully provide a diverse range of views and in this case Rama's statement made a difference to me. As one of the few dissenting opinions against desysop, I think my comments are more important than ever to indicate the decision was not unanimous based upon a first-past-the-post voting system. So again, if you think my question was leading in an attempt to rub in the reality of a pending outcome, I strongly disagree your categorization and implication. In fact, I think it implies a significant amount of bad faith on my part. Mkdw talk 00:37, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
- I know I don't know what you want to know, and I also know Rama doesn't know what you want to know. According to the current vote tally, Rama is getting desysopped anyway, so you're asking a leading question in a situation where Rama cannot in any case benefit, no matter their answer. CyrilleDunant (talk) 21:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- We are at the end of a shambolic process where dodgy behaviour was not flagged (cross wiki stalking for example, holding of decade-long grudges on arcana, actual admission that Wade is being stalked). The arbcom is voting on a principle that was expressly deemed out of scope (how is biographies of living persons not about the content dispute?). The only content not moved to its own section by the clerks, but outright deleted was Wade's testimony.
- My belief in the fairness of the arbcom (collectively) is being strained, I think understandably. CyrilleDunant (talk) 06:06, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
@Levivich: You can add to your list of oddities that apparently whether Rama was in fact justified or not in thinking that this deletion was part of a pattern of harassment is apparently completely irrelevant. (FYI, people, you don't need to be wanting to harass, or even being aware of doing it, merely that you not notice that you are making the same point as a very large number of people at once, overwhelming your victim. That doesn't make you a harasser, but should make you stop and think). And in fact, this whole sad arbcom started with DeltaQuad accidentally canvassing support against Rama [2]. (I insist on accidentally, I sincerely don't think that was their intention, but it's a very good example of how you can participate in pile-ups accidentally).
Comment by Mkdw
@Rama: Do you still believe and stand behind this statement? In hindsight, would you have done things differently? Mkdw talk 15:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
Comment by Rama
@Mkdw: If I had known at the time of the incident what I know now, I would not have restored the article. I hope this answers your question. Rama (talk) 19:17, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- @Rama: At risk of being disagreeable, I must say that your answer seems evasive. Would you explain what specific knowledge about this matter do you now possess, and why would it have changed your judgement to undelete the page unilaterally? AGK ■ 19:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
- As I have stated before a number of times, I believed that my action would be widely understood and accepted. I now know that a number of editors vehemently oppose it and have construed it as some sort of power-grab. I see not that my action did not have the intended healing and pacifying effect that I intended. In fact I deeply regret the additional unpleasantness that Dr. Wade has had to sustain in these proceedings and that she would probably not have had to endure without my action. Rama (talk) 19:53, 4 June 2019 (UTC)